It is MTL's fault.



LMAO!!!

I saw Billy Crump throw a putt on Hole 16 at Lake Olmstead that landed on top of the basket (Old style Innova basket), fell through the top, and then BOUNCE OUT!! What are the odds? :eek:

But I got to see Joe Thacker play. :D

M.C. - Am I to believe that you were not a recipient of a golden shovel for all of your work @ Am Worlds??????



Hah! I guess you can tell I'm a little bitter about it :p



Conners,
I have to speak up on this one.
You were, regretably, overlooked when the Golden Shovels were awarded at the Monday Am Worlds Players Meeting.
Your work on the courses and the numerous fundraising events you directed before Am Worlds are testimonies to your committment to Tulsa Disc Golf and the PDGA. We all feel bad about what happened- no one feels worse than Dave. :(

Now, it seems, you are bitter about not receiving a Golden Shovel for your work @ Am Worlds. :confused:
You finished 61st. Your first six rounds averaged out to a rating of 948. You did play well enough to make the semi-finals, but I haven't heard any of the 71 other Advanced players complaining about not getting Golden Shovels for their "work". Sheeesh!

What will you want next? Golden Shovels in every Players Pack? :eek:

Mike, If I'm off base on this one- let me know will ya'? :D

I saw in the pro worlds gallery a picture of the new bite shoes box with KC on it. Is this how every box is gonna look, their like AIR Climos. SICK if this is how its gonna be.

Ash, you are right on the money sir. :D

Yeah, exposing yourself in public is not against the law or anything :confused:

What a joke.



this whole "ASSociation" is a JOKE....

M.C. - Am I to believe that you were not a recipient of a golden shovel for all of your work @ Am Worlds??????



Hah! I guess you can tell I'm a little bitter about it :p



Conners,
I have to speak up on this one.
You were, regretably, overlooked when the Golden Shovels were awarded at the Monday Am Worlds Players Meeting.
Your work on the courses and the numerous fundraising events you directed before Am Worlds are testimonies to your committment to Tulsa Disc Golf and the PDGA. We all feel bad about what happened- no one feels worse than Dave. :(

Now, it seems, you are bitter about not receiving a Golden Shovel for your work @ Am Worlds. :confused:
You finished 61st. Your first six rounds averaged out to a rating of 948. You did play well enough to make the semi-finals, but I haven't heard any of the 71 other Advanced players complaining about not getting Golden Shovels for their "work". Sheeesh!

What will you want next? Golden Shovels in every Players Pack? :eek:

Mike, If I'm off base on this one- let me know will ya'? :D



since it was an oversight, there is a remedy: give the man a golden shovel!

Des, what do you think that they should have paid you?

It is MTL's fault.



LOL

It is MTL's fault.



LOL

I'm not surprised...I've heard about them boyz from da Carolina's ;)


Stay TTrim...Gone to my Happy Place... :D

BTW....I would like to say CONGRATULATIONS to all the winners....especially Kenny....Earned me $80......which means I cashed higher than half the Pro Men.... :D

The REAL issue is (and I have seen this at many events): Why are people not willing to "man up" and warn players early or back up others that do??


anything that unfairly distracts me takes the reasonable expectation of fair play away from my tournament experience. Having to be the "bad guy" is also an additional pressure that I don't need. Having people refuse to back up a warning is even more ridiculous.



tru dat


word :D

yes they did, and most/all of the time rightfully so. We have rules in place for a reason. I was involved in one. My disc rolled passed the basket, and ob, down a creek embankment, and splash it went. I marked my lie where i had asked the group for the spot, and proceeded down the embankment. I got my disc, and proceeded to return to the playing field. As i began to climg (note i am 6ft 300 lbs), the climb required both hands free for assistance. I informed one of the other players that I was throwing my disc to him. No intent to putt, just to free my hands, not in any way in the directuion of the basket. A common sense manuever. A player in my group challenged it as a throw. We took it to the TD, and he granted it. I agreed and informed him I understood, just didn't like the way the opposing player delivered the message, and was it at me, or the horrible round he was having. The rules is in place for a reason so there is no doubt what is considered an attempt at the basket, or not. I understand, and the TD was tottally professional. Was it common sense, or did the opposing player vent his horrible round out on his only opportunity other than the true person.

hey Chris, did you find out what happened to Jim and Keith?

No return phone call from Keith. I'm sure they had a good reason.

Howdy!!!

Yo EOG, way to cash at worlds man!!!!



Thanks bro. Felt good to put together a few good rounds finally!

Hello this is Des Reading,
I have no problem with a flat payout, but this is the World Championships. Where after seven hard fought rounds a player emerges to the top to become the World Champion. I believe a portion of $845 EXTRA dollars should go to the winner, not less. Once again in all the other divisions, all winners with equal or more players recieved more or the same amount of pay. There has been huge discussion on how to encourage more men to turn pro, but the Open champion still gets a kick-back of an extra $500 with three less player? The Master Women's Champion also reaped the benefits of the Extra cash with the same entrants. I am one of the leaders when it comes to promoting women in the sport. Adjusting the payout from the bottom women players (the true players you are trying to encourage) and moving it to the middle and then slighting the World Champion is not a good move. The new 2006 PDGA pay tables already had been adjusted via the competition committee. Why manipulate the tables again? It's just not right.



Des,
Sorry if you feel slighted. It certainly wasn't done intentionally and I apologize on behalf of myself and the tournament. The final payout was posted for all to see on Friday evening. I did not personally calculate the payout but I did peruse and approve it, not knowing what was paid out the previous year or any other year. <font color="red"> I guess that I was focused on the positives, </font> which were that we added $1,770, paid out 147% of entry fees and 48% of the field in that division, the highest percentages of any of the divisions.
This is the type of response that I have come to expect form the PDGA...deflection of responsibility onto the member. Des...you should be more positive (because that is what the PDGA is focused on)is basically what this statement implies. I don't know a more positive and encouraging person in our sport than Des. She was focused on a discrepency in payout figures, not anything negative...why even make the "I was focused on the positives" statement.

<font color="red"> I do wish that you and Jay had brought your concerns to me before the event ended, when I could have easily addressed the issue, instead of waiting until after the fact and airing your frustrations on this Discussion page. I cannot fix something if I am not aware that it is broken and this forum is not the place to solve problems, in my opinion. Please feel free to call me if you would like to discuss the matter further.
</font>
Why don't you just say that you don't plan to do anything about it...because I am sure that is the case.
I really hope the "leaders" of our sport (the PDGA) change and become real "leaders" that can actually lead us forward instead of being stuck in the same stagnant pool of crap that we continue to soak ourselves in. Hopefully this combined with a ton of other issues will call to order a more collective effort by the members to vote in PDGA elections, and know who and what they are voting for, and get some of this dirt out of our governing body.



Congratulations on your win. You are a great champion and I hope that this unfortunate incident does take away from your hard fought and well deserved victory.

PS: I believe you left your DGA Trophy basket at the tournament headquarters.

Regards,
Brian Graham
Tournament Director



Des and Jay...much love from the East Coast.
See you soon on tour.
*** These statements are in no way a reflection of the opinions of anyone except myself.
TT4Life

Unlike NASCAR, disc golf is a self officiating sport and the players must be willing to step up and make the tough calls at the time that they happen. His group did issue him a courtesy violation and the issue was turned over to the Marshals but not until after the round. Brad was warned by the Marshals that another outburst of any kind would result in an immediate disqualification. One of the players in the group pleaded the 5th and did not want to be involved. The other two wanted him penalized and/or booted from the tournament. <font color="red"> Brad does have a reputation that preceeds him but a players prior history can not be used as the basis for penalizing him the first time he acts discourteously in a tournament. </font> Players need to realize this and issue a warning or file a complaint the first time someone acts up so that if it happens again, the Marshals have the power to act.



SOOOO....Cam Todd being followed around by an official at a tournament had nothing to do with a reputation that preceeded him????

Bumps,

I hold no elected office with the PDGA and I do not speak for them. I stand by my post, and I will not be lured into your lame attempt to fan the flames by using my statements out of context.

Regards,
Brian Graham

You tell'em Brian!!

YOU and all of your staff did an outstanding job of running a most stupendous Worlds and deserve a lot of respect for doing so. Naysayers are everywhere, a dime a dozen so to speak. Get a life.

How exactly can the statement be "out of context" when he quoted your entire post?

like usual, the ones doing the most complaining never run a tournament or do anything.

Enough is enough already....Knock it off...You guys sound worse than Brad and are more of an embarassment, cuz ya just can't let it go...For the love of God...Give it a rest....

I for one would like to hear some of the positives about the World's...Surely more excited things happened (ie. Discgolf) then this nonsense...

Anyone care to share some good stories...How was the players party... :)



I met MTL in a laundromat. I recognized his pink panties spinning in the dryer :p

Enough is enough already....Knock it off...You guys sound worse than Brad and are more of an embarassment, cuz ya just can't let it go...For the love of God...Give it a rest....

I for one would like to hear some of the positives about the World's...Surely more excited things happened (ie. Discgolf) then this nonsense...

Anyone care to share some good stories...How was the players party... :)



I met MTL in a laundromat. I recognized his pink panties spinning in the dryer :p



I object. Those were JJ's pink panties.

"a players prior history can not be used as the basis for penalizing him the first time he acts discourteously in a tournament."


but a player with a history of dysfunctional behavior can be disciplined for his/her "body of work", can't they?

because i wasn't at the awards ceremony at Pro Worlds, i can't technically state an opinion as to the behavior of certain individuals in their speeches. however, if a certain player or players were so blatantly out-of-line with their remarks, does the PDGA disciplinary committee (or others in disciplinary positions) have the right (or even more importantly the obligation) to discipline that person for the betterment of the sport. it's obviously a touchy and subjective issue as we all have rights relative to freedom of speech. but if someone is constantly out-of-line as judged by a committee of respected elected members of our organization, it would be wrong to not take some action.

There were so many terrific things about this event - it was set up and run very professionally. In addition, there were some really very well-done amenities - cold water everywhere all the time, icy towels, lightning meters, very well-prepared courses, great spotters (with the one unfortunately egregious exception), super communications between the various courses and the tournament central, and much more.

Congratuations to Brian and all of his crew, plus all those of the PDGA who participated in this humongous effort. It was a very enjoyable experience for me and all the rest of my family - as players, caddies, and spectators.

To those of you who were NOT there but have only been reading the whines and trash talk on this thread, believe me that you haven't got a very clear picture of what a great time was there to be had !!! It was a super event. Once again, many thanks to all those who organized and ran this event.

Unlike NASCAR, disc golf is a self officiating sport and the players must be willing to step up and make the tough calls at the time that they happen. His group did issue him a courtesy violation and the issue was turned over to the Marshals but not until after the round. Brad was warned by the Marshals that another outburst of any kind would result in an immediate disqualification. One of the players in the group pleaded the 5th and did not want to be involved. The other two wanted him penalized and/or booted from the tournament. Brad does have a reputation that preceeds him but a players prior history can not be used as the basis for penalizing him the first time he acts discourteously in a tournament. Players need to realize this and issue a warning or file a complaint the first time someone acts up so that if it happens again, the Marshals have the power to act.



This is 200% correct. Until you little boys and girls grow a set and step up and call someone on violations, it is not the PDGA's problem unless you take the first step. I am reading a lot of posts of people who have sand in their vaginas but most would punk out at the first sight of misconduct. Again it is THE PLAYERS job to enforce conduct on the course during an event, not a Marshall or the PDGA disciplinary committee. Either start calling out warnings or keep your mouths and fingers quiet.

If you are posting here and were not in that group and you feel nothing was done, then the other 3 players are to blame which as I read is not the case in this instance Brad was warned, that is the freakin rule people. Next time a friend or competitor posts, talks, or cries about a temper-tantrum laden round, ask the simple question: Did you warn him or her? No? Then tell that person you don�t want to hear anything about it, tell them they are as much to blame as the guilty party.

I suggest Public Humiliation; it has been a great form of behavioral modification for centuries. These out bursts that happen should be announced at the beginning of the next round played with the guilty player present in front of everybody and then stressed to everyone that it will not be tolerated. This will curtail future outbursts from said player. And if they do happen again, Bye Bye, TDs have to grow a set also and pull the freakin trigger on the DQ rule.

AMEN.

I suggest Public Humiliation; it has been a great form of behavioral modification for centuries.



Brad perhaps unintentionally applied this "penalty" to himself in his winner's speech, which didn't have any content that needed to be edited (other than length). He indicated over and over how he was misunderstood. I think most of us who heard him now understand him much better, but perhaps not in the way he intended...

I agree with you Vanessa, I think we have an awsome organization here. at am worlds the TDGA ,along with the PDGA did a great job. One should think about the countless hours put in for such an event. Makes me want to kick a rock, as long as it's not myself. I had a great time sharing a moment with each volunteer at am worlds even as I played my rounds, just to say how much we appreciate them. Some are great spotters, or other activities, but they all are volunteers, and without them would be a serious loss.

Miss you and your fam, we'll meet again one day.

Brad perhaps unintentionally applied this "penalty" to himself in his winner's speech, which didn't have any content that needed to be edited (other than length).


I think you may have meant WHINNER's speech.

I was sitting 5 feet from where @#*!# pleaded his case to the marshals. What a sad excuse of a champion he is. Don't get me wrong; I have to admit his game is obviously exceptional and certainly qualifies him as a champion. It's just so sad his character is quite the opposite.

I only hope that all of you defenders of this pesky problem the PDGA must constantly endure will consider this:
<font color="red">
Competition rarely develops one's character. But it will always reveal the character of the competitor. </font>

Maybe it's other shortcomings that evoke this behavior, but I for one am sick and tired of seeing so much effort wasted in dealing with this embarrassment to our cherished sport.

BTW - Did anyone else notice that there may have been only 5 or 6 people (including BH)that actually celebrated upon that final putt? Compare that to the reaction to KC's 12th! Way to go Champ! You continue to set a fine example for the rest of us.

whoa

Competition rarely develops one's character. But it will always reveal the character of the competitor.




MTL...read this quote very carefully.

Moments that I will remember as a spectator:
#1: Brad making an honest effort for several minutes to talk to a friend's nephew who has a significant speech impairment.
#2: Climo ('nuff said)
#3: All the champs made themselves quite available for autographs after the finals.
#4: McCray whining because a player in his group went and retrieved McCray's OB disc then compaining because that player "touched my disc"
#5: Confused little girl asking friend for an autograph (he's a longtime player and known around Cincy but not regionally much less nationally)

Competition rarely develops one's character. But it will always reveal the character of the competitor.




MTL...read this quote very carefully.



It is a great quote! Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Hope to see ya out there soon!

Brad has a anger problem, I hope he can learn to control it, cause he can play some great golf



He'd fit right in with Discrafts world

champions... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



yeah, Nate is probably the most angry person I've ever met /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The REAL issue is (and I have seen this at many events): Why are people not willing to "man up" and warn players early or back up others that do??


anything that unfairly distracts me takes the reasonable expectation of fair play away from my tournament experience. Having to be the "bad guy" is also an additional pressure that I don't need. Having people refuse to back up a warning is even more ridiculous.



I know when I was warned for courtesy, I said, "thanks, you're right".

I saw it this weekend, a guy got warned on the 3rd hole, went on to birdie the next 7 and won the tournament. Maybe that's why no one does it.

I've been warned for talking to my disc after I threw it (basically saying stuff like get down, get through, skip, stuff like that) and I've been warned for being too positive during a round.

Reason number 1 why self policing our sport is dumb. History has too much bearing on things.

I mean, I;ve gotten over it.



Doesn't sound like it.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The REAL issue is (and I have seen this at many events): Why are people not willing to "man up" and warn players early or back up others that do??


anything that unfairly distracts me takes the reasonable expectation of fair play away from my tournament experience. Having to be the "bad guy" is also an additional pressure that I don't need. Having people refuse to back up a warning is even more ridiculous.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First I'd like to say thanks to everyone for the support and accolades I recieved [at the tournament and on-line] during this years WORLDS. I played some amazing golf and I'm happy with my results. I'd also like to thank the PDGA and Augusta for everything they did to make this Championship such a success. And! I'd like to thank my Sponsor INNOVA [we weren't given any time to say thanks at the awards].

BUT! I guess it's time to get down to the NITTY GRITTY. And I mean GRITTY!

I just went through this post and saw the disdain most players are showing for Brad's bad behavior during this years PRO WORLDS. I played rounds 2,3,4,6,7 and the FINALS with him and I personally know everything he said and did. I rarely post on this discussion page; but, felt this is one time I must post! The post I have chosen to reply to...says it all!

The REAL issue is (and I have seen this at many events): Why are people not willing to "man up" and warn players early or back up others that do??

This is so true. I have played many rounds going back to 1998 with Brad Hammock and have warned him in almost every one of these tournaments and rounds to quit the SH%$ talking and innuendo.

Not once have I been backed up by someone in the group. This is exactly what happened again this year at the WORLDS. I told Brad repeatedly to stop making discourteous comments during our rounds. In most cases he came back with name calling and derogatory remarks. The other players in the group never once said anything; they just let him SPEW.

In rd. 3 he got in a pile of branches and asked "What do I do with this?" I told him mark it in the pile and play it...and that he couldn't move any of it because it was in front of his lie. He said a few profane words, marked his shot, putted and missed, and then started kicking the pile down to WOOD CHIPS. I told him to stop. No one else in the group said a word to him. I could clearly see they were as uncomfortable about his tantrum as I was...but they didn't say anything. The round went on with more WAAA BABY stuff from Brad till we got to hole 16 where the GATES OF HELL opened up. Brad 5'd the hole and as we were walking to 17's tee he started KARATE kicking the rock cairn/Chinook Chuk. He didn't accidentally run into the thing...he kicked and kicked on it till every rock was off the man-hole cover it had been erected on. Once again I told him to stop it and that he been warned already. And, once again neither of the others in my group said a thing. The second card [waiting on hole 17's tee] jumped in with condemning comments about his actions. He insulted them and me and showed no remorse of any kind for what he did. Again, not one word from the others on the LEADER CARD!

As the 2nd group walked away Brad said some pretty insensitive things about one of the players. This time I told Brad "You've been warned...now you're getting a stroke"! He tore into me for 5 minutes while we waited on the tee box. ONCE AGAIN NOTHING WAS SAID BY ANY OF THE OTHERS IN OUR GROUP!

Hole 17 was a complete fiasco with the BRAD calling us #$*&$! or #$*&$! many times including other taunting verbiage. I told him to stop it and that "I'll go get a T.D. if he doesn't"; and the others in the group [NOTHING]! It was at this point that I talked to the guys in the group and said "You're going to regret letting him act like this when this thing is over."

Hole 18 was even worse...Brad wouldn't even shake/high 5 me or Dean's hands. THE ANGST LEVEL WAS UNBEARABLY HIGH! We walked down the fairway listening to the P word [AT LEAST 30 TIMES]. Again I told Brad to stop it and I think ya'll know what the other guys on the card said. YEP! NOTHING! I was shaking mad and ended up missing a 20 footer...that rolled away...and I ended up a BOGIEING to finish the round.

This sort of thing went on---every second of every round. Snide little remarks were used by Brad on almost every hole. If someone asked to putt out he answer with "WHAT-EVER".
If someone got a good kick he'd spout "GOD. YOU'RE LUCKY; YOU'RE SO F$%#ING LUCKY"!

In the sport of disc golf I rarely come across anyone who is hard to get along with. Most people cheer on each other, say things like "SNEAK" when someone's disc is heading toward a tree or bush, congratulate each other for good shots, treat each other with dignity and respect, show sympathy when another player gets a bad kick, high 5 good throws and putts and in general act like good sports.

Rarely does someone come along in this sport that is contemptible, despiteful, belligerant and PURE EVIL as is the case with Brad Hammock.

The problem we have here is that we are asked to POLICE ourselves. And it's the rule...you must by the rules call someone for a violation or you're violating the rules. In doing this we the players put our own mental state and focus at risk of being sundered. But, if we don't do it we put ourselves at the same risk by having to play with so much anxiety.

After the tournament was over and the awards were handed out; a couple of the top finishers and I were talking and they were mad that he'd won, that he'd taken us out of our games with his BULLYING and that they were going to write some letters.

I told them "What are you talking about...it's too late for that now." I said to the guys "He never even recieved an official warning or penalty. WHY! Because you didn't back me up when he started acting like a 5 year old way back at the beginning of the event. I told them ya'll enabled him to do what he did." I then said remember what I said way back in the 3rd round: You're going to regret letting him act like this when this thing is over."

This is a lesson to all the disc golfers at every level...disc golf rules are rerived from ball golf rules. And the #1 rule is courtesy. You can beat your self up [which I know I'm guilty of occassionally] but you can't let someone else beat you up menatally or physically. If you do and the rest of the group lets it happened to them too...it's no one's fault but your own. And like the other quote from this thread ("Having people refuse to back up a warning is even more ridiculous.")

IT IS RIDICULOUS!

-Joel Kelly PDGA #9152

wow

good for you Joel. Way to step up and say something. I was in the gallery and was rooting for you the whole time. After you canned those long putts on 2 and 3 I was like he's gonna do it. I know you were wishing you could play hole 1 over again. You'll get em next year.

Joel, once again you have proven what an outstanding credit you are to Austin Disc Golf! It is a pleasure to call you friend!

it doesnt matter what it says on the website i know who the real champion is

joel kelly

brad shouldnt even be allowed to compete. if we even cuss on this board we get banned yet brad gets to cuss out the players in his group during the world champinoship. makes me sick
maybe its roid rage. cause its definitley not the human growth hormone.

Agreed! Great post. Sorry you had to finish one storke behind that little guy.

I have a question, if Joel warned him about courtesy and nobody "backed him up" in his own group, BUT another group was affected by the behavior, can the other group call him on a violation if a majority of that group agrees to it? It seems like they were affected, albeit no as equally affected as his own group accoring to the first-hand accout Joel provided.

if we even cuss on this board we get banned yet brad gets to cuss out the players in his group during the world champinoship.



just wanted to quote probably one of the best posts I've ever read on here.

Holy Schnikey's....... :DAny questions?

Right on Joel. Hard to believe no one backed you up, I've played enough with Brad in the past not to put up with that [email protected] and have let him know. One of the reasons why I played Open last year at the Worlds because I knew Nockamixon would kill him mentally and I did not want him to affect my play.

When are we as an organization going to grow a set and put an end to these angry outbursts at our events?? :mad:
Why should I have my boys play this game? Yeah Sean the 4X World Champ in Masters acts as old as you (age 9), why don't you emulate him. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Put an end to this carade or expect the worst at USDGC, where the stakes are really high.

Shame on Dean Tannock and the others that did not back up Joel. One would hope Innova is reading! What happened to a player needing to be a sportsman to be sponsored. Guess not, I guess you just need to sandbag in the masters. Another top 5 finish it would have been in the Open with the big dogs if they played the same courses and tees. When will the PDGA wake up and put a ratings cap along with the age on the only protected divisions left in the PDGA?

Joel,

What I'm having trouble understanding why you feel you needed the backing of the rest of the card to assess warnings and penalty strokes for discourteous behavior.

Rule 801.01G states:

"A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05."

It only says the rest of the group needs to be informed of the assessment, not agree with it.

You said, "This time I told Brad "You've been warned...now you're getting a stroke"!" Did he receive the stroke or not? If not, why not? Because the group didn't back you? You didn't need their backing.

While I admire your forthrightness in discussing this in this forum, I'm puzzled as to why you did not act when the incident(s) were taking place.

--Mike

Joel,

You do know that you don't need to be seconded on a courtesy violation call, don't you? The rules just state that the rest of the group needs to be advised. Advise them (and an official, to be prudent) and then start to stroke away. If contested, then your card mates would have to testify to the contrary... that aint gonna happen, as you know. You played some great golf, buddy - I would have loved to see you win it.

You do know that you don't need to be seconded on a courtesy violation call, don't you?



Wow, I'm showing my ignorance, but I have always been under the impression that courtesy calls had to be seconded to become "official." Has the rule always read this way, or is this a recent change?

*** Following the 2006 Worlds, Innova is announcing their new disc. It will be the New 4X Masters Champ - Brad Hammocks signature disc .... "The Tantrum" everyone should have one of these in your bag, not only is it the smallest diameter disc that Innova now makes, but it comes with a free "get out of warning" card that can be played over and over again!!

I hear it is very bright collored during good rounds and very dark collored during bad rounds.

and that the lip of it has slits so when it flies you can hear it whining :o:D

James,

To my knowledge, this is the way the rule has been stated for a long time. No recent changes have been made.

--Mike

It'll set the new world distance record, because it just keeps going on and on and on and on . . .

I do know the rule: 801.01G

The problem I had with taking it up with the T.D. was the fact it was going to turn into a he said/he said thing; without the backing of my group. They didn't have the hair on their rumps to back me when it was going on and on...and I knew they didn't want any part of it. I take it up with the T.D. and I'm dragging them back into the fire.

And I knew It'd be like talking to a traffic court judge. The PDGA knowingly has let him get by with this stuff over and over. It's like he's untouchable. Now, one person [with a complaint on the card] is going to have a leg to stand on? NOT A CHANCE!

On top of that; I was quite upset over the whole charade...It was all happening so fast and furiously.The litigious side of my brain was numb. If you've ever been in this sort of situation you know what I mean...The whole ordeal was a bit surreal.

I headed out to the next course (Hippodrome) with one thing in mind. We would have a Marshall with us for the next round and every round thereafter. I told the guys at the Hippodrome course "We're going to need a Marshall on the leader card for the rest of the tournament" They asked "Why" I told them. They then stated Brad wouldn't be on that card...he'd fallen to the 2nd card. I then said "You're going to need a Marshall on the 2nd card then"! They sent Shawn Sinclair with the group...sort of shadowing the guys.

The next round at Pendleton King [round 5] Brad was on the leader card and the Marshalls were no where to be seen. There was an incident that I talked about on my earlier post...Brad was OUT/PUTTING and wanted to wait for the 2nd group to drive first. Well, then he decided he wanted them to play the WHOLE hole out too. I was parked under the basket and asked if I could putt out. The rest of the guys were cool with it. I asked Brad and he said "WHATEVER" I said again "Can I putt out?" He said "WHAT-EVER" again. I said something like "you've been warned already Brad and Putted out. No one else in the group seemed to think that was inappropriate behavior...I DID!

It wasn't as bad as kicking over the rock cairn; but it ticked me off. These kinds of sly little incidents went on the whole time. Lots of his innuendo was directed toward me...I suppose because I was the only one to call him out. Some of time he would make sure I was the only one who could hear him.

I truly believe if not for all the garbage. Dean or I would have won. Dean was definitely rattled too.

The DGTV News with Worlds Coverage can be found here:
www.discgolftv.com (http://www.discgolftv.com)
More worlds footage to come......

I hate to side with poor behavior, but a real player (of mind games) will often tone his behavior down to a level that seems reasonable to an outside observer, but is noticably hostile to persons directly involved.

Such as the "Whatever" response. It's not the correct response, but most would consider it close enough. Now he knows he has you and can appear very reasonable to everyone else and keep you off balance at the same time. He needs to adjust his behavior, but you need to be able to make the call (or at least try) and let it go. Then you can see all of the further prods as powerless attempts to get into your head and bouts of poor sportmanship. Something to pity, not get upset about.

What a shame...

BH is probably reading this thread and reveling in his bull crap victory...He must be on some hard core drugs or something, how else can you explain his angry attitute towards the game and it's players?

Does the PDGA owe this guy something? Get rid of him or put him on suspension or something. If the PDGA continues to let this happen they might as well get rid of the "P" in PDGA.

Maybe one day someone will put the little man in his place [finger crossed].

BH should be DQ'd and suspended for willfull distruction of the rock pile. Someone took time to build that and he destroyed it. If I caught someone doing that to my course, he would regret it.

I asked Brad and he said "WHATEVER" I said again "Can I putt out?" He said "WHAT-EVER" again. I said something like "you've been warned already Brad and Putted out. No one else in the group seemed to think that was inappropriate behavior...I DID!




THis is the only think that I would like to comment on. He has the option, but not the obligation, to let you putt out. Of course I didn't see it and I probably don't understand exactly what happened, but I see nothing wrong with the situation as you described it...other than him being rude.

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension
A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present
(2) Willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.
(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.
(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol. Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning of disqualification may be issued by a director where appropriate.

Go back and take the money and title away. Redistribute the money.

If you go to Innova's website right now, Brad's picture isn't among the champions on the home page, and he isn't on the team page...

I seem to remember a player being DQ'd at Laurel Springs some years ago for damaging the irrigation system. How could this particular player NOT be DQ'd?? :confused:

I seem to remember a player being DQ'd at Laurel Springs some years ago for damaging the irrigation system. How could this particular player NOT be DQ'd?? :confused:



I think it's because he has favor with the PDGA...what else could it be? Odds are if anyone else displayed actions like he did they would be DEEEEEEEEEQUUUUUUUUED!!!

Why not have him pay a fine/percentage of his winnings to a charitable organization. Cam did it! Consistency is good.

If you go to Innova's website right now, Brad's picture isn't among the champions on the home page, and he isn't on the team page...



THIS IS NO JOKE!
I would bet that he was again suspended from Team Champion because this thread brought his actions to light. Earlier this morning, 3 hours ago, he was on Innova's home page next to Voakes and Shive. Definately booted. I wonder if he got his bonus for Worlds?

If you go to Innova's website right now, Brad's picture isn't among the champions on the home page, and he isn't on the team page...



He was on there a couple of days ago, not anymore.... Way to stand for whats right Dave D!

Why not have him pay a fine/percentage of his winnings to a charitable organization. Cam did it! Consistency is good.



Cam had to give it to a Luekemia foundation due to his actions at the Brent Hambrick, who died of Luekemia.

Using the same theory, maybe Brad should have to donate his winnings to a geology department at a university somewhere :D

Took his sponsorship for granite... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Took his sponsorship for granite... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



LMAO

I am very baffled by this occuring......living in Austin....having the pleasure of playing with so many talented golfers..such as Joel....WE....have learned to play to standards that bring the game to a new level. Etiquette is imbodied from everyone! We call everything...and everyone "backs" these calls......and you rarely have anyone get upset. It's a understood standard we thrive on.......I feel it brings this sport to a new level, when we comply with this standard. I became a member only last year.......but of all the travel sports....club teams.....programs...I've been apart of......I have never been apart of anything that needs this etiquette as much as disc golf.....I think it is a core to insure the growth of this sport...that is if we want to insure it's progression......it's up to everyone to embody and embrace this.......my two cents as a lowly adv. player......................It's your sport........REPRESENT IT!........Unlike the lil' guy /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

You breccia!

My sediments exactly?

I though I'd never get to use these geology quotes again!

Joe Thacker, P.G.

Granite, HAH!

Good post, t-town is the same way...people around here are not afraid to call someone out when there is a rules infraction, the rules of the game are there for a reason.

Hey Guy, has your fractured rib healed yet?

I think it was a seperation...and NO.......hurts when I sneeze...BAD!....and with the allergies in ATX....that's daily! :mad:

I stand corrected, WTG for Innova doing the correct thing! I may go out today and buy an Innova disc.

Gotta give Innova credit, they have the stones to do something about bad behavior...way to go, Innova.

It seems as though the other players on the card, except Joel, checked their spines and testicles in at tournament HQ in the same lock box as the PDGA and the TD. The correct call, a DQ, is so obvious, yet it was not done. This Hammock jag-off broke so many rules, but was still allowed to receive the top spot and the cash that goes with it. It appears he would have lost due to courtesy violation strokes alone had they been allowed to stand.

From eveything I've heard, they ran a great event down there in Augusta. But this incident is a missed opportunity for the PDGA to prove its credibility and in my book, will forever be a tarnish on the event as a whole.

There is absolutely no argument against DQing this player.

Isn't it great when the PDGA body of player's comes together in agreement....it's a beautiful thing!

If you go to Innova's website right now, Brad's picture isn't among the champions on the home page, and he isn't on the team page...



THIS IS NO JOKE!
I would bet that he was again suspended from Team Champion because this thread brought his actions to light. Earlier this morning, 3 hours ago, he was on Innova's home page next to Voakes and Shive. Definately booted. I wonder if he got his bonus for Worlds?



I thought I saw his picture up there yesterday, and when I was visiting the site today, it simply wasn't there. If you google for Brad Hammock, the first page returned is Innova's bio about him, which gives a 404 (not found) error. So I assume that Innova has removed him from the team. Waiting for Dave's response right now.

To get away from the Brad bashing for a moment, I would like to thank the staff, volunteers, and Augusta Club for running the event. All of the rounds ran on schedule, even with the daily weather delays. Cold water was abundant even in parctice rounds. All of the OB's were clearly marked and marked early enough for practice rounds. Thank you all for your time and energy and I hope to visit you all again when the IDGC opens sometime in 2011 ;)
Chris Albert

Gotta give Innova credit, they have the stones to do something about bad behavior...way to go, Innova.



Well let's hope Brad doesn't kick over those stones

Gotta give Innova credit, they have the stones to do something about bad behavior...way to go, Innova.



Well let's hope Brad doesn't kick over those stones



Time will tell if those stones are limestones (easily crushed) or something more durable.

Shouldn't the subject title be changed to.....(see above)

Gotta give Innova credit, they have the stones to do something about bad behavior...way to go, Innova.



Well let's hope Brad doesn't kick over those stones



Time will tell if those stones are limestones (easily crushed) or something more durable.



I'm guessing another 'temp' suspension - limey

Captain buddy, wish you would have won.

http://www.martialarts.co.uk/complete%20master%20kick.jpg

Thanks Craig!!!

I wanted to be there. Though I doubt I would have won, I do know I would have had fun.

By player rating alone I would have been happy to finish where Sam Nicholson finished.

Joel, I will gladly have the stones and spine to support your position at any time.

If you aren't having fun or you are putting yourself under so much pressure to perform because you need the cash to get to the next tournament maybe you need to do something else. I'm sure that McDonalds is hiring.

It might be time for some people to grow up and get a life and stop living with their Mommy.

Glad to see your post Joel! You are the 2006 Masters Champ in my book. Glad I got to play with you in Pease before Worlds, that was cool.

Let me be the first to say the BH will not be allowed to play in the 2007 Live Oak Summer Open without a grown up babysitting him every round :D

Without the player being suspended, can you exclude the player from a tournament? It seems that being able to play sanctioned events is a right of membership.

There is a local player that behaves horribly at every event he plays. I personally would like to not allow him to play in my events. But I don't think that I am allowed to exclude hime without a suspension.

Kirk, I was actually talking about being Comp. Director. Ju gots da stones! ;)

I can't root for you if my QC brothers are playing against you, unless there is money involved on my end! :D

Kirk, I was actually talking about being Comp. Director. Ju gots da stones! ;)



I def. don't think Brad could kick Kirk's stones over.

man these play on words are fun.

http://www.martialarts.co.uk/complete%20master%20kick.jpg



If I knew how to use photoshop I would have placed BH's head in the pic :D

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/kick.jpg

close - but too tall

That is awesome!!! Nice job, Vegan ray!!

re-read my post, I said without a babysitter. and he wouldn't play here anyway so it was a joke, duh.

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/kick.jpg



.........................Actual Size!!! :D

It would be really funny if tourney's started "losing" Hammock's pre-registration. I mean, accidents happen, just ask Brad. "Sorry Brad, we accidentally lost your pre-registration and the event is now full. Accidents happen....like when you accidentally tripped over those stones....Sorry! Byebye now."

That is awesome!!! Nice job, Vegan ray!!


Ditto! But where are the stones?

...Actual Size!!!



Hard to compare unless it's placed beside that photo of the multiple Houck's...

...Actual Size!!!



Hard to compare unless it's placed beside that photo of the multiple Houck's...



You mean this one:

http://home.carolina.rr.com/rodneyg/houcks.jpg

:D

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/kickrox.jpg

would the PDGA ever consider stripping Brad of his title

WOW..... this thread has been busy today
I hope Brad is off the Team 4 EVER...he does not deserve Innova's sponsorship.
What a disgrace.

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/kickrox.jpg



.............................Actual size!............O...............it never gets old! LOL!!!

Maybe if I have time tomorrow, I'll make it even more lifelike by shrinking the bulge in the shorts. :p

...Actual Size!!!



Hard to compare unless it's placed beside that photo of the multiple Houck's...



You mean this one:

http://home.carolina.rr.com/rodneyg/houcks.jpg

:D

DID YOU EVER SEE THAT MOVIE MULTIPLICITY?????? HOLY CRAP THAT IS FRIGGIN AWESOME. THE UNITED STATES FIRST CLONE'S

anybody know who the bodies belong too?

WOW..... this thread has been busy today
I hope Brad is off the Team 4 EVER...he does not deserve Innova's sponsorship.
What a disgrace.



wow

Right on Joel. Hard to believe no one backed you up, I've played enough with Brad in the past not to put up with that [email protected] and have let him know. One of the reasons why I played Open last year at the Worlds because I knew Nockamixon would kill him mentally and I did not want him to affect my play.

When are we as an organization going to grow a set and put an end to these angry outbursts at our events?? :mad:
Why should I have my boys play this game? Yeah Sean the 4X World Champ in Masters acts as old as you (age 9), why don't you emulate him. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Put an end to this carade or expect the worst at USDGC, where the stakes are really high.



I think it is up to "us", each of us, to grow a par and make the calls whenever they come up, particularly courtesy violation calls, our organization really can't go out an hold each of our hands and force us to do the right things.

I know you do the right thing Matt, as does Joey and a very few other players in our region, but until it is the significant majority of players doing it the right way, why should we be surprised when a player misbehaves.

"Good People" handle being called on rules violations with professionalism and courtesy. If you're worried about the reaction of the player being called being negative, don't be, cause it just proves that they have no respect for themselves or the sport we are lucky enough to be able to play.

Make the call, defend our sport and fellow "Good Golfers" from those that would throw it in the dirt. If they show their true colors and flame out, GREAT! Now there is no doubt that they don't deserve to be at our events.

These sorts of folks "ALWAYS" weed themselves out eventually. Let's just all do a little better job of tending the garden.

Kirk, I was actually talking about being Comp. Director. Ju gots da stones! ;)



I def. don't think Brad could kick Kirk's stones over.

man these play on words are fun.



I wish Kirk had been in the gallery. He's a certified offical and could have penalty-stroked the do-dah out of this Hammock, tied him into a pretzel, then called grounds maintenance for an emergency trash pick-up. :eek:

WOW..... this thread has been busy today
I hope Brad is off the Team 4 EVER...he does not deserve Innova's sponsorship.
What a disgrace.



wow



I agree Robert. Someone of Schweb's caliber making a statement like this gives it credence.

the main reason I said wow.

I've only seen Schweb ever said something like this on here twice, both times very warrneted. The first time made me laugh really hard :D

anybody know who the bodies belong too?



Yes. But you've only heard of one, maybe two, of them.

That pic of the Houck brothers ;) has got to be one of the funniest ever.

Using the same theory, maybe Brad should have to donate his winnings to a geology department at a university somewhere :D



or to a 'rock' group ... (Stone Temple Pilots?) /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

KaRaTe KICK!

ive met brad before in ATL and had a great time playing with him...

man is he talented...
and know what... i may not respect his actions at worlds...

but i do respect his PASSION and DETERMINATION to be the best he can at this game...

some of us just grew up on different ideals and to me, winning isnt everything...

i just shake off great shots that turn into HANDFULLS OF HATRED (5's)!!

but BRAD would never do that... he plays to WIN...

im glad that INNOVA has enough class to see beyond sponsoring such a DOMINATING athlete for more NOBLE ones...

if this is their new requirements... maybe they should give me a call? lol

anybody know who the bodies belong too?



Yes. But you've only heard of one, maybe two, of them.



That's because you are one of them :D Ever hear from the former pizza man turned card dealer???

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/kickrox.jpg



Talk about a picture telling a thousand words...what a CLASSIC pic!!

I wonder if BH has seen this yet, odds are he is getting a kick out of it.

GREAT JOB VEGAN RAY!

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/kickrox.jpg



Talk about a picture telling a thousand words...what a CLASSIC pic!!

I wonder if BH has seen this yet, odds are he is getting a kick out of it.

GREAT JOB VEGAN RAY!

.................................................. ...........all it's missing is his bag......maybe a disc stuck in the dirt! LOL!!!!!

I think I see a labia hangin out those daisy dukes.

I doubt his pecks look like that either.

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/kickrox.jpg



Rocks are actual size, child-like figure enlarged for clarity.

Thanks Woodrow, I just spit coffee on my keyboard! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

I am going to have to call a courtesy warning. If any of you think that this battering is good for the sport, you are doing just as much damage as Brad did.

I don't know Brad, but I do know Joel. I respect what he said and he has the right to say it. For the rest of us, enough is enough.

How will this look to any outsiders? I guarantee you that Brad's temper tantrum on the course, would be looked on with disfavor, but this piranha frenzy over blood spilt in water is beyond ridiculous.

Agreed.
While we'd all 'like to say' that if behavior like this happened on our card...we could just ignore it and play our game... Where is the nobility?

Thank you, Jerry.
I know you don't need one, but I'll second your call.
It's time we all "man up" and start acting more professional ourselves.

Putt it right,
BOB

I am going to have to call a courtesy warning. If any of you think that this battering is good for the sport, you are doing just as much damage as Brad did.

I don't know Brad, but I do know Joel. I respect what he said and he has the right to say it. For the rest of us, enough is enough.

How will this look to any outsiders? I guarantee you that Brad's temper tantrum on the course, would be looked on with disfavor, but this piranha frenzy over blood spilt in water is beyond ridiculous.



Warning?!? WHUUUUTEVAH
BE A MAN AND WARN the RIGHT PEOPLE.

PDGA
bunchofbittches

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Its over. Now, we will all be more aware. Thats all. Jersey JAM tomorrow.

That's twice now this morning I spit coffee out on my computer. :D

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Its over.



Its not over until MtL says its over.

That's twice now this morning I spit coffee out on my computer. :D



You're going to have to install those buffet sneeze guards at your desk. :D

Give me a link so I can start to get it approved on my budget. The way things go in this sport with it's beurocracy, I am certainly going to need it! :D I also drink a lot of coffee! ;)

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Its over.



Its not over until MtL says its over.



As long as we are this slow at the bank with our mortage applications, it will not be over.

It's over Johnny. Nothing is over till I say it is!!!! - Rambo

What?! Over? Did you say over? NOTHING is over until WE decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? HELL, NO!

- Bluto Blutarski

Germans?

Forget it, he's on a roll.

And it ain't over now.

I have no problem with putting this to rest, and I agree that it is probably time to do so. But forgetting it is out of the question. Remembering the past can assist in avoiding repetition of mistakes.

if the pdga does nothing thatn we need to go ahead and rename the sport to BDGA "Brad's Disc Golf assoc"

Where's my Red Wildcat :D

BOD = Board of Directors NOT!!
BOD = Brad's Only Defenders

This thread can be over, but I still would like to hear Harold or Dave give a statement or a press release about BH.

You are misinformed if you don't feel the PDGA is addressing tournament behavior. However, it can only act based on the information reported as issues get escalated to their attention.

- Joel had the option to apply courtesy penalties and didn't take it that far. It's not ideal that players have to police these issues, especially since the 1-shot or more penalty would have won the title for the person applying the penalty. The alternative is for players to play for no purse with all of the fees going to pay an official for each group all week.
- Others in his group and next group also had that option and didn't.
- Despite that Brad still got a tournament warning from Dave even though this isn't even in the regular rulebook but a new tour addition this year. One was given out at Am Worlds also and it stopped the problem behavior. It's like a yellow card in soccer, you get two and you're out. We possibly need to add a tour warning for marshals that works the same way.
- Apparently, Brad had no problem behavior after the tournament warning. If he did, then again, it was not reported.
- All of these nuggets posted regarding behaviors during the event make it seem like the info was available for the PDGA to act on at the time, but it wasn't.

*** warning: sarcasm contained herein ***

...man, this year's Worlds would have made some great TV... I wonder what channel would be the right fit, ESPN2 or Bravo...

I am going to have to call a courtesy warning. If any of you think that this battering is good for the sport, you are doing just as much damage as Brad did.




It's not over...this is a professional sport we are talking about, not some Recreational Men's league.

If Tiger or Phil did something like this I'm sure the media, and all the players and fans would drop it (LAUGHING WHILE TYPING), yeah right!

I believe this incident should not be forgotten, and if we as players want to bust BH's balls than by all means lets DO IT! When someone acts the way BH did he deserves the criticism, it's not like this is the first BrAD incident anyways.


The photoshop pic of BH is STILL priceless!

if the pdga does nothing thatn we need to go ahead and rename the sport to BDGA "Brad's Disc Golf assoc"



more like the ADGA
Amateur Disc Golf ASSociation

This thread needs to move into a rules issue.
Let this thread get back to Worlds.
I would like to thank EVERYONE in Georgia for the good times.
Worlds was ran at the highest level and the folks there stepped up and hit a home run.
Great work fellers!
There were many highlights, as a T.D. myself....I take off my hat to everyone's efforts.
You folks in Atlanta...great tourny.....get rid of them baskets at the Lenora course....thems terrible! :o
Thanks David for the invite to your house...and them FOX brothers got the BOOM when it comes to food.
Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CONGRATULATIONS KENNY AND DES!!!

2006 WORLD CHAMPS!!!

Mike,

I have to disagree. If Tiger got caught cheating, there would be a backlash and there would be websites doing exactly what is going on here, but it would not be on the USGA web site. Why? Because the USGA requires honor amoung players and participants. This continued harping of Brad's ills is dishonorable. If you don't see it that way, you are entitled to your beliefs and should take your opinion to another website and continue to blast Brad.

What I see here is beneith us and that is my opinion. No insult intended.



I am going to have to call a courtesy warning. If any of you think that this battering is good for the sport, you are doing just as much damage as Brad did.




It's not over...this is a professional sport we are talking about, not some Recreational Men's league.

If Tiger or Phil did something like this I'm sure the media, and all the players and fans would drop it (LAUGHING WHILE TYPING), yeah right!

I believe this incident should not be forgotten, and if we as players want to bust BH's balls than by all means lets DO IT! When someone acts the way BH did he deserves the criticism, it's not like this is the first BrAD incident anyways.


The photoshop pic of BH is STILL priceless!

I hear ya, Jerry...It is getting kind of out of hand, but we can't forget that he did bring this upon himself.

[sigh] I guess I'll tone it down a notch :(

we can't forget that he did bring this upon himself.




quoted for emphasis (and to raise post count :D)

*** warning: sarcasm contained herein ***

...man, this year's Worlds would have made some great TV... I wonder what channel would be the right fit, ESPN2 or Bravo...





comedy central :D

Unlike NASCAR, disc golf is a self officiating sport and the players must be willing to step up and make the tough calls at the time that they happen. His group did issue him a courtesy violation and the issue was turned over to the Marshals but not until after the round. Brad was warned by the Marshals that another outburst of any kind would result in an immediate disqualification. One of the players in the group pleaded the 5th and did not want to be involved. The other two wanted him penalized and/or booted from the tournament. Brad does have a reputation that preceeds him but a players prior history can not be used as the basis for penalizing him the first time he acts discourteously in a tournament. Players need to realize this and issue a warning or file a complaint the first time someone acts up so that if it happens again, the Marshals have the power to act.



It would appear from this post that there was enough evidence to DQ him. Two players wanted it done. The one who "pleaded the 5th" should have been offered a DQ for an attemp to circumvent the rules. Pleading the 5th is for self-incrimination; a witness cannot plead the 5th unless they were involved in the unacceptable activity.

I'm sorry Chuck but with all due respect, and in light of Brian's post above, if accurate, I just can't believe that there wasn't enough evidence to take care of business in this matter.

I say let's all put this to rest, but not forget. We have golf to play.

I'm sorry Chuck but with all due respect, and in light of Brian's post above, if accurate, I just can't believe that there wasn't enough evidence to take care of business in this matter



DITTO

I say let's all put this to rest, but not forget. We have golf to play.



10-4 Big Fella!! Now if we can only convince MTL to drop it, he instigated this entire mess :D

Always the instigator, never the instigatee :(

Let this issue serve its purpose. When disc golfers play by the rules, The outcome can change signifigantly! Just ask Austin's own Joel Kelly .

On that note : Thanks Joel for acting in a mature fashion and representing the Lone Star State !!! You Rock man!

Rule 801.01G states:

"A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05."



The MARSHALs f'ed up. Penalty strokes should have been assessed since there is no requirement for a 'second' of a courtesy rule violation. The only adjudication to determine was whether to DQ or not. So obviously the Marshals are the ones responsible for not only an invalid ruling, but for denying Jim Oates his well deserved place in the finals. Shame, shame; I thought these guys were suppose to know the rules!!

In my opinion, the only recourse here is to:
1) Revoke this undeserving and invalid Championship from said individual.
2) Levy a fine on said individual equivalent to the winnings awarded to be donated to an appropriate charity.
3) Suspend said individual from PDGA competition for a minimum of 6 months.
4) Require a sincere written apology from said individual to every Master(individually) that participated in the Championship tournament before any review of suspension dismissal is considered.
5) Review and strengthen the testing procedure for Marshal certification.
6) Require re-testing of all Marshals and others involved in the invalid ruling.

But I understand that a formal complaint has already been filed. It will be interesting to see what becomes of it.

I'm sorry Chuck but with all due respect, and in light of Brian's post above, if accurate, I just can't believe that there wasn't enough evidence to take care of business in this matter.



It was taken care of at a higher PDGA level with a tournament warning based on what was presented to Dave at the time. That's a significant and new penalty. The smaller courtesy warnings/penalties are the responsibility of the players.

I had a great time at Worlds this year!

Thanks a lot Augusta for a great week!!

Its not over until MtL says its over.

[/QUOTE]
Ju know that the Truth

[

more like the ADGA
Amateur Disc Golf ASSociation

[/QUOTE]

I hope it don't take this long to figurethat out

You are misinformed if you don't feel the PDGA is addressing tournament behavior. However, it can only act based on the information reported as issues get escalated to their attention.


Please take this to heart, everybody. If you want action, you must make the call at the time. Coming on this message board and whining about crap after the fact when nobody stepped up at the crucial time is what makes the sport look bad.

Either grow a pair and make the call at the right time, or else tuck it back and shut up about it. If you make the call and it's right and nothing happens, then you will have a right to whine and whine and whine about it.

For anybody that keeps saying the PDGA effed up, go back and read this thread. Courtest warning strokes were not issued by the players on hand. The main guy didn't go to the TD or course director because he stated that the other guys on his card weren't going to back him up. I don't understand how y'all can blame the PDGA and the Comp Director for that! You should refocus your anger on the other players on that card and call them out, since that is where the problem lies.

Either make the frickin' call and stay with it until completion, or let it go and shut the hell up. Not making the call and then whining about how crappy the PDGA is......is stupid.

All such courageous keyboard peckers.

The question now being.

If you were a certified official and saw the rock cairn episode as described in this thread, would you have done anything about it ?

If you were on the same card would you be upset enough to make the call and stick with it ?

Have you seen situations like this in the past where the TD failed to take any action and the calling party is made out to be the bad guy ?

I made a footfault call on a guy I really liked - it was blatant - and even after I had pointed to his foot to both other guys in the group...you guessed it...neither one would second it! Most discouraging. He took it on advisement and continued the round with much pleasantry. Very encouraging. Keep calling 'em...

I stopped someone before a putt who was obviously off his mini. I had shown the lie to another player, but was unsure if the call would be seconded. I felt that since he was not throwing yet, I would simply state that he needed to be in line with the center of the mini. He realigned, still wasn't perfect, went for it, but missed the putt. It was a straddle around a tree (hole 14 at Hippo), and I levied which was worse, him making the putt and me calling him on the foot fault, or him being able to readjust and reputt. Not sure if it's OK to say something before the putt, but he was not in the process of throwing at that point.

I later found out it was his first pro tournament. He played some solid golf. Josh Childs. He beat me in the end, maybe it was karma... I felt it was the right call, and a good time to explain that the supporting point must be behind the CENTER of the mini, not just some part of it.

always better to say something when you see it, instead of waiting till after the throw.

Gary(?) I think that's your name.
You are SO correct. The rule book is vague and ambiguous ON WHAT'S DISCOURTEOUS to start with...

What one person finds offensive; may not be offensive to another.

But, I think we all know the ROCK CAIRN thing was way too much! And the insueing insults were way to much! They were way to much for me and the 2nd card...not for the rest of my group though.

And you're even more accurate with [the calling party looking bad.] In some way I was made to look bad for calling out Brad's behavior.

I LATER FOUND OUT SHAWN SINCLAIR SAID "HE WAS WATCHING ME FOR BAD BEHAVIOR!"

I laughed when I heard this and shook my head. Not once have I been called for discourteous behavior in any tournament. Now, I was being lumped into the IMPERTINENT GROUP by the Worlds committee.

After my poor showing in the semi-finals Sinclair came up to me and thanked me for being so GRACIOUS during my bad round. I said "thanks...I always try to." I had no clue at this point I was being watched by him.

I'm still perplexed as to who said I was the problem too. Was it Brad or someone else from my group; which I doubt!

On the subject of the PDGA having to do it's job...which some people on this thread think they've been doing it. They're wrong! I asked the T.D.s to watch over the group with Brad in it for every round through the end of the tournament.

They had Sinclair with the group for the 4th round...but no one followed us in the 5th; and more contentious actions from Brad resumed. There was some shadowing of our group in the 6th and Sinclair was there for the SEMI.

The PDGA didn't cover our butts after the ROCK CAIRN round. WHY! do I say this? It's because they were told there was a situation and they should have made sure there was a Marshall with us at all times. And I mean with US! Not shadowing us---WITH US!!!!

THEY DID LAST YEAR AFTER ALL THE TROUBLE WITH HAMMOCK and MCCLELLAN.

So the worlds payouts were all bad, the PDGA sucks and Hammock should be jailed in Georgia because he doesn�t posses enough sense to put on the false front the majority of top players in the game put on. WOW what a thread.

While all of this stone throwing is going on let me ask all of the informed this; There was a rule violation on hole #17 in the final 9 of the masters division that directly affected the outcome of the event, it would have called for a re throw and given the circumstances would have changed the outcome of the event. It should have been called but wasn't. Does this make him a cheater? Does this mean that he should have been banned? Does this mean his sponsor should re-evaluate the character of the player?

This thread is one of the most mean spirited things I have ever seen in this game. Is Brad a saint? Absolutely not... Is Brad a fun guy to play with in competition? No again. This is not however isolated to just Brad. In every round I played at the Worlds this year someone did something that should (using the guidelines of this thread) have had them stroked and disqualified from the event.

Are we to stroke or DQ the guy/girl who repeatedly after his tee shot lands safely between the ropes lets out a �Wow, I just didn�t want to go OB" as the next player is approaching the tee?

Should we have to listen to someone complaining an entire round about the baskets or the course or the heat?

Should we have to tell a player during the round that it would be appreciated if he/she didn�t talk well we are throwing?

Considering that we are all individuals that have different hot buttons where do we draw the line? I would argue that the guy/girl who is constantly getting in your head with negative suggestion or subtle movement is every bit as disruptive to the game and its ability to move forward as anything Brad has ever done. The only problem with this is that we would all have to think about our own shortcomings. Imagine no more� This tee is slick or that was my most stable driver, I can�t believe it flipped or the famous complaints about the pass through just before your fellow competitor putts.

The guys who are so ready to execute a player from the PDGA and destroy the little that�s left of his reputation should consider first putting your name in as a volunteer to help with the rules and the running of events and then have the PDGA introduce rules that would CLEARLY define what can and can not be done out there. If you talk about the course the equipment or the weather you�re out. If you have a confrontation with another player a ruling is made on the spot.

In closing my suggestion is that all involved in the little incident in the masters need to address the issues that have brought them to this juncture. Is Brad the bad apple or have things been done to bring out this side of him? He is an easy target right now; perhaps the other combatants could show that they are true gentleman by embracing Brad rather than executing him?

Brian Graham, Brian Hoeniger, Laurie Gibson, David Gentry and all of your staff and volunteers should be 100 % proud of the job you did and to INNOVA thanks for the support. $80,000 for a Frisbee tournament is pretty good.

While all of this stone throwing is going on ...


No, its stone KICKING! He kicked them. Check the picture.

you've got to be kidding.........

how can you compare complaining about baskets and weather and comments after a throw remains in-bounds to physical destruction of the rock tower and the other behavior of Brad?

it is a lame comparison.

Dan, I dont think the comparison is lame at all. Its my opinion thats all. You guys have turned a pile of rocks into the world trade center. Who put the rocks there in the first place? On top of an emergency access hatch. In this public lynching each of those rocks moved off the course should represent a stroke. Perhaps Brad was just considering the safety of others. ;)

you've got to be kidding.........

how can you compare complaining about baskets and weather and comments after a throw remains in-bounds to physical destruction of the rock tower and the other behavior of Brad?

it is a lame comparison.



I saw a pile of rocks on Tuesday when I played the course. It only had a handful of rocks on it. It was not on any fairway (unless you got a very bad roll on 16 or went waaaay long on 15). I did not recall seeing it when I played the course on Thursday, so I can't say how big it was when Brad knocked it over. If it was larger than a few rocks, that means players were adding to the pile during the rounds. It would not be wilfull destruction of the course to knock over a small pile of rocks. This is not a DQable offense.

The courtesy violation is also not a DQable offense either. If I was a TD and a group wanted me to DQ Brad in this scenario, I would ask: "How many times did he repeat the offense after the warning, and how many strokes did you issue?" As a TD, I would be hesistant to DQ a player that had not even been stroked first.

Everyone needs to get off this rock cairn thing being willful destruction of the course. The photo being plastered on the message board in no way represents the small pile of rocks that he kicked over. This was like the little rock piles you see when walking from hole to hole on a course that you try to balance another rock on the top. It is a silly little thing to do, not an integral part of the course.

It doesn't matter why the rocks were there. All that matters is they were there and a part of the course.

Argument over.

Hey Sully, Great to see you at Worlds.

Not to pick a fight with you, but the �mean spirited� nature of this thread pales in comparison to the mean spirited actions of certain people. At Worlds, I was witness to a mean spirited physical display followed by a mean spirited oral display. This was followed by an extremely poor spirited and pretty much untruthful attempt at self-defense.

While none of this was directed at me, it did affect my game. Like many people, I thrive on positives. This event created unbelievable tension (and negative feelings) not only in the lead group, but the second and third groups as well. I was fortunate to only have a few holes left in my round, as disc golf was far from my mind after the exchange. In playing Ultimate, I could channel anger into playing harder. This was not an option at Wolrds, as the event did not bring anger, but shame, as I was embarrassed to look around and see the reactions of fellow players and spectators. In almost 30 years of playing competitive disc sports, this was the first time that I have been ashamed of the sport. Not knowing how to react, my response was to withdraw from the scene.

After much pondering and numerous discussions about this, I have decided to file a Formal Complaint with the PDGA Disciplinary Committee. I for one feel strongly that there is no room in Disc Golf for people who bring shame to the sport.

Take Care Mike, Hope to see you soon

Joe

Favortism sux......as it appears here in this case.....don't ya'll #@*& yourself....

I can honestly report when a player flies off the handle that I have given them warnings and strokes, even when all of the other players in the group are running with their tails between their legs offering no backup what so ever.

All you can do is what you can do. The truth of it is, you'll be upset by such behavior either way, so you might as well do the RIGHT thing and call the rules. Try to do it as unconfrontational as possible, but regardless, any ill will is all on the dude that has put everyone in that position: the rule breaker.

This all being said, I think it is extremely poor form to hold these kangaroo courts here on the message board. It should be a message board courtesy violation for these he said she saids to fester here.

Funny how the same 3 or 4 ringleaders always seem to be the culprits. And funny how they never take any responsibility themselves, but rather blame it on everyone else and the PDGA.

Funny how the same 3 or 4 ringleaders always seem to be the culprits.



Wohoo!

I'm a ringleader!

I'm glad you know exactly what I do for the sport and I how always blame the PDGA for everything. Please, stop being so ignorant.

Funny how the same 3 or 4 ringleaders always seem to be the culprits. And funny how they never take any responsibility themselves, but rather blame it on everyone else and the PDGA.



I've got to make a big'ol B.S. call on this one!

Hi Joe, Good to see you as well.

I have always thought highly of you Joe and nothing on here that has been said or will be said can affect that.

I have no interest in determining who is right and who is wrong it is an impossible task. The thing about perspective is that no two people can stand in exactly the same place at the same time so we dont see exactly the same thing. I spoke at great length with Brad about the event and in his opinion he thinks he has done the right thing. He feels you guys have as a group have alienated him. You may see he has done it himself but regardless its how he feels.

It is an easily resolvable issue it just needs to be dealt with properly. Hanging him here or asking the PDGA to kick him out isnt a solution, it will just help the problem grow.

Perhaps you guys can all sit down and talk about what the problems are and come to an acceptable arrangement. I would be glad to sit and discuss this stuff at the USDGC with you guys.

You are misinformed if you don't feel the PDGA is addressing tournament behavior. However, it can only act based on the information reported as issues get escalated to their attention.

- Joel had the option to apply courtesy penalties and didn't take it that far. It's not ideal that players have to police these issues, especially since the 1-shot or more penalty would have won the title for the person applying the penalty. The alternative is for players to play for no purse with all of the fees going to pay an official for each group all week.
- Others in his group and next group also had that option and didn't.
- Despite that Brad still got a tournament warning from Dave even though this isn't even in the regular rulebook but a new tour addition this year. One was given out at Am Worlds also and it stopped the problem behavior. It's like a yellow card in soccer, you get two and you're out. We possibly need to add a tour warning for marshals that works the same way.
- Apparently, Brad had no problem behavior after the tournament warning. If he did, then again, it was not reported.
- All of these nuggets posted regarding behaviors during the event make it seem like the info was available for the PDGA to act on at the time, but it wasn't.




Yeah given without justification at AM worlds......

you've got to be kidding.........

how can you compare complaining about baskets and weather and comments after a throw remains in-bounds to physical destruction of the rock tower and the other behavior of Brad?

it is a lame comparison.



I saw a pile of rocks on Tuesday when I played the course. It only had a handful of rocks on it. It was not on any fairway (unless you got a very bad roll on 16 or went waaaay long on 15). I did not recall seeing it when I played the course on Thursday, so I can't say how big it was when Brad knocked it over. If it was larger than a few rocks, that means players were adding to the pile during the rounds. It would not be wilfull destruction of the course to knock over a small pile of rocks. This is not a DQable offense.

<font color="red">The courtesy violation is also not a DQable offense either. If I was a TD and a group wanted me to DQ Brad in this scenario, I would ask: "How many times did he repeat the offense after the warning, and how many strokes did you issue?" As a TD, I would be hesistant to DQ a player that had not even been stroked first.</font>

Everyone needs to get off this rock cairn thing being willful destruction of the course. The photo being plastered on the message board in no way represents the small pile of rocks that he kicked over. This was like the little rock piles you see when walking from hole to hole on a course that you try to balance another rock on the top. It is a silly little thing to do, not an integral part of the course.



Yeah but destroying the course is. So Chuck I never asked but how could Nikko have gotten a tournament warning without being issued anything more then a warning by the group?

Yeah but destroying the course is. So Chuck I never asked but how could Nikko have gotten a tournament warning without being issued anything more then a warning by the group?



I believe it was behavior observed by the marshal not the group that produced it. But you'd have to write and ask Gentry since I only heard about it like several others.

Well I heard from the group and they never mentioned anything about a Marshal. I was told that he had been warned three times in separate rounds and then given a tournament warning. He then shot a 940 4th round when Juliana followed the card. I know how Nikko is and I have warned him many times but I don't think that he should've been given such a harsh penalty(not until he was stroked by the card at least).

I made a footfault call on a guy I really liked - it was blatant - and even after I had pointed to his foot to both other guys in the group...you guessed it...neither one would second it! Most discouraging. He took it on advisement and continued the round with much pleasantry. Very encouraging. Keep calling 'em...



I was playing in a tourney at HB last year and was called on a foot fault. Just a few seconds later after I was called, the gal who called me on it had the very same foot fault on the very same tee. I saw it but said nothing. The next gal to tee off stepped close to me and said, "Looks like someone else had better watch her footing too." I replied, "I agree but the difference is, she can be a real B and I'm not." Foot faults are such a non-crucial element off the tee that I could care less. I'm glad I didn't make that call and just had a fun time instead of playing these stupid head games people try to play.

This game is 90% mental and anyone affected by anyone else's actions is just weak, mentally. I battled w/someone for over 10 years and boy could she deal out the head games. But once I figured it out that no reaction at all just made her implode instead of explode, I stopped reacting! Worked like a charm! Now my skin is thicker and very little bothers me, even people talking, dogs fighting in the background, etc. Work on your mental game and no one will have to re-act to someone else's actions who is just looking to push your buttons. It's way more fun that way! ;)

So if you don't think a rule (foot faults) is important you dont have to call it. Great logic on that one. The rules are there for a reason and need to be called.

BTW, I heard the courses at worlds were great. Is Hippo a permanent fixture now?

BTW, I heard the courses at worlds were great. Is Hippo a permanent fixture now?


The courses were awesome. The baskets we're not portable and looked like they were cememented in.

Pete said Hippo is permanent but he's planning to turn it into a more recreational 24 or 27 hole course for daily play with the option to revert to the 18-hole Worlds layout for events.

Thanks Chuck. I might be in that area soon and wanted to know.

I played the fifth round with Nikko. He did get upset on several occasions, and myself, and our two other group members asked him kindly to refrain from outbursts. He did. No Marshall was present or witness for that round I know for sure. I only worry that, as some other people on this board have mentioned, that there is an inner circle of people within the PDGA that are given favoritism, and who's opinions are taken as fact. I think that is unfortunate, and I personally understand this now on a whole new level.

The MARSHALs f'ed up. It will be interesting to see what becomes of it.

Hey Marshals, I apologize for calling you out on this one. You guys did the best that could've been expected under the circumstances and it's a shame you were ever put in that position.

I think it is hilarious I get direct responses from you BDH, especially when it concerns a "conspiracy theory", and the fact that several questions have been posed that you have not replied to from other members. Apparently this conspiracy made you think. Nice! Thanks for the support with my "theory". ;)

Hmm


Ken Climo 12

Tiger Woods 12


hehe

I had this conversation with someone last night.

Tiger has 12 majors, Kenny has 16. Also, Kenny got 16 just int he last 24 tries. Tiger has 12 in the last 28.

I think we need to get to a major 4 - 5 events a year, which I think we are doing really well now (Worlds, USDGC, Players Cup, Japan, Europeon). Events like the Memorial are comparable to like the TPC, an event that is not a major, but has the feel of one.

I only worry that, as some other people on this board have mentioned, that there is an inner circle of people within the PDGA that are given favoritism, and who's opinions are taken as fact. I think that is unfortunate, and I personally understand this now on a whole new level.


Fret if you will, but there is no such conspiracy nor is there anything even resembling of the appearance of "an inner circle of favorites." But at times there does appear to be no shortage of conspiracy theorists among the posting membership ...

BDH

All of the Reptilians cover for each other! ;)

Post deleted by _____

I think it is hilarious I get direct responses from you BDH, especially when it concerns a "conspiracy theory", and the fact that several questions have been posed that you have not replied to from other members. Apparently this conspiracy made you think. Nice! Thanks for the support with my "theory". ;)

TNT-TTeam TTacodisc
MSDGC
Politics hold disc golf back from being seen as a true sport.



You may have to change that sig line when Pat and Steve, two folks who seem to share your idea of a PDGA conspiracy/good ol boy network take BOD positions next month.

People who have ever done any kind of volunteer work in disc golf know it would be pretty impossible to have this type of conspiracy going on. Volunteers are often overworked and definitely underappreciated.

Look how Brian got blasted last week after giving literally thousands of personal hours volunteering to host Pro Worlds and putting on one of the best run PDGA events ever. Somehow a couple of incidents get overblown on the message board and there is now some kind of good ol boy network or conspiracy at work. Geez, the volunteers got it 99.9% right but everyone is focusing .01 percent that didn't go perfect and now somehow there is a conspiracy??? Get real!!

Of course, the new Board members will be given the secret "favored members" list at the September Summit meeting and be expected to pledge their ongoing support as part of their initiation rites. :eek:

I think it is hilarious I get direct responses from you BDH, especially when it concerns a "conspiracy theory", and the fact that several questions have been posed that you have not replied to from other members. Apparently this conspiracy made you think. Nice! Thanks for the support with my "theory". ;)



I agree with Discette...Polish, why don't you and all the other unhappy people start your own organization and you can bash on that message board. Get over it man....when you guys bash these volunteers enough and they decided they have had enough, then are you gonna step up and make the world a better place?

Suzette is part of the cabal! Only kidding.

I've found that there is too much general carping and whining in disc golf to support any type of consiracy.

My opinion (actually talked about this with Duesler in Augusta).

There are def. a few things I don't agree with that our orginazation does. I really don't think there is anyone who can say they agree 100% with what any orginzation does however.

But, the PDGA, overall, is a great thing. Just look at this website. On here, you can go to a tournament and see where people placed. Then you can click on thier name and see thier career info. Then you go back into any tournament they played, get a historical breakdown of how much they've played and how they improved / disproved over the years, and see where they are from. Also, you can get the entire rule book, catch up on PDGA events, buy clothing, listen to a PDGA radio report, get directiosn to almost any course in the world, and post on a massive discussion board from anything to a thread about the world championships to a thread about local league on Tuesday nights.

And until anyone can do anything close to the PDGA (which will not happen), I will be a PDGA member and support this orginazation.

I don't beleive there is a "conspiracy"

Hey! This is not me.
I'm the REAL B.O.B!





Fret if you will, but there is no such conspiracy nor is there anything even resembling of the appearance of "an inner circle of favorites."

BDH



WELL prove him WRONG...

B.O.B

Post deleted by _____

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d134/karl_dub/sucks2.jpg

Or were you telling me to prove him wrong?
If that's the case, Well there is an inner circle, It's called the PDGA membership. You know, the $5 Discount on entry fees!

My opinion (actually talked about this with Duesler in Augusta).

There are def. a few things I don't agree with that our orginazation does. I really don't think there is anyone who can say they agree 100% with what any orginzation does however.

But, the PDGA, overall, is a great thing. Just look at this website. On here, you can go to a tournament and see where people placed. Then you can click on thier name and see thier career info. Then you go back into any tournament they played, get a historical breakdown of how much they've played and how they improved / disproved over the years, and see where they are from. Also, you can get the entire rule book, catch up on PDGA events, buy clothing, listen to a PDGA radio report, get directiosn to almost any course in the world, and post on a massive discussion board from anything to a thread about the world championships to a thread about local league on Tuesday nights.

And until anyone can do anything close to the PDGA (which will not happen), I will be a PDGA member and support this orginazation.




What he said!

Great Job Brian and ADGA!! World's was a blast and the level of effort that went into the event was obvious. Thanks for all of your time and the sacrifices that you and all the volunteers made to make this event as great as it was.

A humble suggestion...All former World's TDs should receive free beer for life. Anytime you see a former World's TD out offer to buy them a beer! It might only cost you a few bucks over a weekend, but if we get a TD drunk enough, they might actually agree to run World's again?!!

I think there are not enough people who post a general thanks to the event promoters on here, which makes the bad topics tend to take flight, as people want to talk about the event, and lacking any positive topics, people will tend to discuss and theorize and just plain yabber about bad aspects, of which, a select few have overtaken the fact that this was a great event. We need to remember that, and Brian and the other folks who made it happen need to remember that a few isolated incidents may rule the messageboard for a few weeks, but they will not rule (most) of the rest of our memories of the event for the long term. I will forever remember Augusta as my first Worlds Cash, and actually, my first cash over $100!

Thanks guys.

A humble suggestion...All former World's TDs should receive free beer for life. Anytime you see a former World's TD out offer to buy them a beer! It might only cost you a few bucks over a weekend, but if we get a TD drunk enough, they might actually agree to run World's again?!!



good idea

The 2008 worlds are in Kalamazoo MI pro and am and Larry Labond is the td i believe so i think we should buy him a keg of obereron now so when little thingz go wrong which i dont think will happen as long as hammock doesnet show his face we will be alright i think it will be the best world's ever the courses they are gonna use are sick.

Thank u too all the voulanters without out these people we would never be able to run a event this big they are the ones that deserve a beer!!!

Chuck,

Could you check to see if I am on the list? Or do I need to win a Pro event first? Just checking. By the way, I did get my decoder ring, but that last post of yours doen't seem to make sense, did I decode it properly?

Of <font color="red">c</font>ou<font color="red">r</font>se, the new B<font color="red">o</font>ard member<font color="red">s</font> will be given the <font color="red">s</font>ecret "favore<font color="red">d</font> membe<font color="red">r</font>s" list at th<font color="red">e</font> <font color="red">S</font>eptember <font color="red">S</font>ummit m<font color="red">e</font>eting and be expected to pledge thei<font color="red">r</font> ongoing <font color="red">s</font> <font color="red">u</font>pport as part of their i<font color="red">nit</font>iation rit<font color="red">e</font>s. :eek:

<font color="red">C.r.o.s.s.. d.r.e.s.s.e.r.s.. u.nit.e</font> ???

Contrary to what some might think, I've never seen that hypothetical list since I've never been on the Board.

My opinion (actually talked about this with Duesler in Augusta).

There are def. a few things I don't agree with that our orginazation does. I really don't think there is anyone who can say they agree 100% with what any orginzation does however.

But, the PDGA, overall, is a great thing. Just look at this website. On here, you can go to a tournament and see where people placed. Then you can click on thier name and see thier career info. Then you go back into any tournament they played, get a historical breakdown of how much they've played and how they improved / disproved over the years, and see where they are from. Also, you can get the entire rule book, catch up on PDGA events, buy clothing, listen to a PDGA radio report, get directiosn to almost any course in the world, and post on a massive discussion board from anything to a thread about the world championships to a thread about local league on Tuesday nights.

And until anyone can do anything close to the PDGA (which will not happen), I will be a PDGA member and support this orginazation.


MTL, I overheard some of the BOD members talking and they said you're off septuple-secret probation and they are considering initiating you into their secret....."brotherhood" is what they called it, because they saw this post. On another weird note, I saw Hoeniger and Hammock sacrificing a goat and drinking its blood. But i'm not sure what that was all about.

My opinion (actually talked about this with Duesler in Augusta).

There are def. a few things I don't agree with that our orginazation does. I really don't think there is anyone who can say they agree 100% with what any orginzation does however.

But, the PDGA, overall, is a great thing. Just look at this website. On here, you can go to a tournament and see where people placed. Then you can click on thier name and see thier career info. Then you go back into any tournament they played, get a historical breakdown of how much they've played and how they improved / disproved over the years, and see where they are from. Also, you can get the entire rule book, catch up on PDGA events, buy clothing, listen to a PDGA radio report, get directiosn to almost any course in the world, and post on a massive discussion board from anything to a thread about the world championships to a thread about local league on Tuesday nights.

And until anyone can do anything close to the PDGA (which will not happen), I will be a PDGA member and support this orginazation.


MTL, I overheard some of the BOD members talking and they said you're off septuple-secret probation and they are considering initiating you into their secret....."brotherhood" is what they called it, because they saw this post. On another weird note, I saw Hoeniger and Hammock sacrificing a goat and drinking its blood. But i'm not sure what that was all about.



MTL approved classic post.

Let me make something perfectly clear.

I am currently on the Board until the tranfer of positions to those that have won their respective positions occurs. There is not and has not been any favoritism or conspiracys.

As for favoritism I wouldn't even cut my own Mother any slack were she to break the rules. For proof you can always contact her and find out how much grief I gave her for throwing a cigarette butt on the ground at one of "my" courses. I quoted the word my because I consider all public parks to be mine since I am part of the public.

As for conspiracys you can give that one a rest as well. I would NEVER put up with it. I would be on here so fast that even if the rest of the Board were actively trying to delete my posts they wouldn't be able to keep up. And, even if they were to ban me from the message board I have access to enough PDGA members phone numbers and email addresses that I could easily relay my message to each of them personally.

If you think you can do a better job of running a volunteer organization then please step up and do something.

"Please don't waste my time or yours by trying to argue with me. If you don't agree with me then you are wrong. If I agree with you then that would make both of us wrong."

Kirk

A huge thank you to BDH and the ever-so-sweet Lorrie, as well as all the former and current BOD members. You've all worked your fannies off either as underpaid staff or gracious volunteers. Each "regime" has gotten us through to the next, so they are all equally important.

I've done the small-scale regional thing, and the BS level is so ridiculously high that I can't even imagine what these great leaders have had to put up with at the National level, but I thank you all very much.

I am worried about the future for us, but I hope the current and future crops of volunteers and paid staff can move us forward some more.

A huge thank you to BDH and the ever-so-sweet Lorrie,



I met Lorrie Gibson in Tulsa this year, what a sweetheart! I don't think I ever saw her NOT smiling.

Fret if you will, but there is no such conspiracy nor is there anything even resembling of the appearance of "an inner circle of favorites."

BDH



WELL prove him WRONG...

B.O.B



1. Even if I succeeded, another 1-2-3-4-5 members would start their own PDGA conspiracy plot shortly thereafter.

2. If you think the ED is going to focus on proving that the PDGA isnt something it isnt to begin with, rather than on the endless work involved in running a 10000+ member, 700+ event, 10+ country organization, you are mistaken.

3. http://www.pdga.com/course/courses_by_city.php?id=2410

I played this course today with close friends in Link�ping Sweden today.

4. Wait a minute are you telling me the PDGA staff actually occassionally get days off ? Must be some kind of conspiracy ...

BDH



GREAT post
Its just like the "pDGA" not to address the issuses and hope they go away and/or people forget.

The PDGA makes mistakes just like any other group run by humans. It's just that their mistakes are more in the public disc golf eye and more visible. But that's not grounds for accusing them of a conspiracy.

Jason,

Which issues might those be? The ones developed by conspiracy theorists, the ones over payout being too steep (or is it too flat not sure where you stand on that one), the issues over amateurs winning prizes or the issues over not enough players playing trophy only divisions? It is amazing how some members of the PDGA complain about unanswered issues, and yet fail to identify those issues and properly submit them to the PDGA for review. I know this may come as a shock, but the discussion board is NOT the proper place to identify issues and make policy decisions on them.

Have you ever submitted a single issue directly to the BOD and not gotten an answer? I suspect the answer is no, but I could be wrong. As with most members that use the discussion board, you don't seem to realize that it is not the place for proposing issues to the BOD. It is a great place to bring them up, discuss them with like minded individuals and flesh out your concerns. You can then take those points, write a synopsis of them and then provide them to the BOD for reviw, but don't confuse the message board with a policy making avenue.





GREAT post
Its just like the "pDGA" not to address the issuses and hope they go away and/or people forget.

Have you ever submitted a single issue directly to the BOD and not gotten an answer?



Not trying to start anything, just want to say that the answer to this question for me is yes.

Not trying to start anything, just want to say that the answer to this question for me is yes.



Then I believe you have the right to complain about unanswered issues. In your opinion, do you think the message board is the place to do this though?

No, although I have used it as a place to vent about some frustration concerning this.

However, I will say that in the three instances I contacted the PDGA, I was contacted and given an answer twice. The one time I would have never heard an answer had I not ran into the person I contacted at a tournament.

I realize this question was for Robert, but I would say that though the mess board may not be the best place to air the problem, it is a highly visible place seen by many. If you're not getting answers to your questions from those who have the answers in a timely fashion, then call them out on it. It may upset them, but if they don't want to be embarassed, then they should have answered your questions, even if that answer is "I don't know, I'll have to get back to you."

The other side of the coin is that such an action may not be the most diplomatic approach. It's a judgement call, for sure. You have to weigh the benefits of proceeding diplomatically against the detriments of exposing the transgression.

[QUOTE]
Jason,

Which issues might those be? The ones developed by conspiracy theorists, the ones over payout being too steep (or is it too flat not sure where you stand on that one), the issues over amateurs winning prizes or the issues over not enough players playing trophy only divisions? It is amazing how some members of the PDGA complain about unanswered issues, and yet fail to identify those issues and properly submit them to the PDGA for review. I know this may come as a shock, but the discussion board is NOT the proper place to identify issues and make policy decisions on them.

Have you ever submitted a single issue directly to the BOD and not gotten an answer? I suspect the answer is no, but I could be wrong.


[QUOTE]


YOU ARE WRONG.

And yes I think this "BOARD" is the right place to voice this since nothing is done when someones tries to go through the proper channels.

I started a thread about two emails I sent to the PDGA after I had heard no response.

Within in 24 hours, someone contacted me about one of them.

I'd say the message board worked.

As a relative newcomer to this forum, it strikes me that an organization, especially an organization that ostensibly exists solely for the benefit of all its members, should never get so hidebound that this type of communication channel is separated from the decision-making process by red tape.

"It is amazing how some members of the PDGA complain about unanswered issues, and yet fail to identify those issues and properly submit them to the PDGA for review. I know this may come as a shock, but the discussion board is NOT the proper place to identify issues and make policy decisions on them."

It isn't all that amazing to me. These discussion threads are the vox populi of the members. This is definitely at least one of the proper places to at least identify issues.

And a PDGA board member, especially one who takes time to read and post on these forums should not need for posters to formalize a request and send it through the proper channels where it may or may not get a hearing and the results of that hearing may or may not filter back to the source. That's Red Tape.

Rather, a board member who sees that a good number of posters are passionate about an issue should take matters into their own hands and raise the issue themselves at a board meeting. That's Responsible Representation.

"but the discussion board is NOT the proper place to identify issues and make policy decisions on them." Jerry Power

As a relative newcomer to this forum, it strikes me that an organization, especially an organization that ostensibly exists solely for the benefit of all its members, should never get so hidebound that this type of communication channel is separated from the decision-making process by red tape.

"It is amazing how some members of the PDGA complain about unanswered issues, and yet fail to identify those issues and properly submit them to the PDGA for review. I know this may come as a shock, but the discussion board is NOT the proper place to identify issues and make policy decisions on them."

It isn't all that amazing to me. These discussion threads are the vox populi of the members. This is definitely at least one of the proper places to at least identify issues.

And a PDGA board member, especially one who takes time to read and post on these forums should not need for posters to formalize a request and send it through the proper channels where it may or may not get a hearing and the results of that hearing may or may not filter back to the source. That's Red Tape.

Rather, a board member who sees that a good number of posters are passionate about an issue should take matters into their own hands and raise the issue themselves at a board meeting. That's Responsible Representation.



SECOND

The problem with relying on the message board for input to Board members is the hit-or-miss nature of this board in terms of the appropriate Board members seeing the issues. Some posts will be there for 5 minutes then be buried on popular threads. I'm a regular on here and I'll easily miss posts if I'm gone for a day or two let alone a week. This Discussion Board can never be an official pipeline to the Board but can certainly be a place to discuss issues to clarify positions. The absolute best way is a phone call to HQ with second best being email to make sure your issue is heard.

Jason & Chris,

Please try to read every post on every thread every day. Then give us a synopsis of what you have read every day for lets say a week. I will bet you can't do it.

Your position that the DB should be used as a method to contact the Board about issues is absolutely ridiculous.

You might want to think through the enormity of a project before you state how easy it can be.

Chris my email address is easy to find if you would like to discuss this further. Jason you already have my cell phone number. Please feel free to use it.

Kirk

Jason,

Okay I see now that you are not one to discuss an issue, since you failed to answer a single question put to you. Instead you revert to denial and repeat unsubstantiated claims. Even the below remarks are made AFTER MTL stated that he has followed proper procedures and submitted his concerns to the BOD and they responded to two of three of them. His statement that the third was answered outside is an area of concern, but in no way backs up your statements.

Once again, what issues have you ever submitted to the BOD and not gotten taken care of? Back up your statements.

As for use of the board to bring up items, once again, I even said this should be done, I just said it is not the place to effect BOD policy decisions. Now one last question, what organization that you know of, uses a message board to dictate policy?


YOU ARE WRONG.

And yes I think this "BOARD" is the right place to voice this since nothing is done when someones tries to go through the proper channels.

Chris,

I agree that the message board is a great place to identify and discuss an issue. You get a large audience, and tons of feed back, but if you want someone to take responsibility, should it not be you first? Why is it that the current mindset of the US population is that we should only have to complain to get someone to respond. I am not saying that you are doing this. I pretty much agree with you, up to the point where you think the BOD should make policy decisions based on message board discussions.

If you truely believe that we should do that, then we need to elect a message board monitor to watch these discussions and track them. Summarize them and submit them to the BOD. I would first suggest that you volunteer to do this, since we will need to find funding for the new office.


It isn't all that amazing to me. These discussion threads are the vox populi of the members. This is definitely at least one of the proper places to at least identify issues.

The REAL problem here is that replying posters need to MAN-UP and move this type of discussion to the alien conspiracy thread so the rest of us can talk about the 2006 Pro Worlds.

The REAL problem here is that replying posters need to MAN-UP and move this type of discussion to the alien conspiracy thread so the rest of us can talk about the 2006 Pro Worlds.


Seriously. The Augusta club put in so much hard work hosting and running a great event and all thats on this thread is whining and complaints and conspiracy theory's.

Thanks again Augusta for a great time at Worlds! It was a blast!

Chris,

I agree that the message board is a great place to identify and discuss an issue. You get a large audience, and tons of feed back, but if you want someone to take responsibility, should it not be you first? Why is it that the current mindset of the US population is that we should only have to complain to get someone to respond. I am not saying that you are doing this. I pretty much agree with you, up to the point where you think the BOD should make policy decisions based on message board discussions.

If you truely believe that we should do that, then we need to elect a message board monitor to watch these discussions and track them. Summarize them and submit them to the BOD. I would first suggest that you volunteer to do this, since we will need to find funding for the new office.


It isn't all that amazing to me. These discussion threads are the vox populi of the members. This is definitely at least one of the proper places to at least identify issues.






Perhaps I wasn't clear ... or perhaps my remarks have been mischaracterized.

I would be interested to know exactly where in my post I created the impression that"the BOD should make policy decisions based on message board discussions."

After re-reading, I am scratching my head. However, on the off chance I am an imbecile, I apologize for my lack of clarity.

What I intended to say is that:

a) this forum is a valuable communication tool.
b) this forum is one of many valuable communication tools.
c) a board member who has seen a groundswell of opinion on this forum on a particular issue should not wait for that issue to be formally brought before the board through proper channels but should rather raise it themselves when you get to that groovy "new business" part of the proceedings.

I object to the broad brush approach. Do I think board members need to stay glued to every forum thread? Or that we need a new position to monitor and summarize every thread. C'mon, guys ... I mean there is a time and a place for hyperbole, but if you knew me you would not that I am really all about finding solutions and moving on.

The bottom line is that within 15 minutes of posting several people who seem to speak in some manner on behalf of the PDGA had taken time to not only read but respond to my post ... Q.E.D. that makes this forum a valuable avenue of communication.

Chris,

My mistake, I agree with you 100%, with the understanding that while a BOD member may choose to react to a discussion, it is not their responsibilty. There are to many fickle suggestions that some members think are important, but I doubt they take the time to summarize and send to the PDGA. Certainly if something is important enough the individual poster should take some responsibility.




Perhaps I wasn't clear ... or perhaps my remarks have been mischaracterized.

I would be interested to know exactly where in my post I created the impression that"the BOD should make policy decisions based on message board discussions."

After re-reading, I am scratching my head. However, on the off chance I am an imbecile, I apologize for my lack of clarity.

What I intended to say is that:

a) this forum is a valuable communication tool.
b) this forum is one of many valuable communication tools.
c) a board member who has seen a groundswell of opinion on this forum on a particular issue should not wait for that issue to be formally brought before the board through proper channels but should rather raise it themselves when you get to that groovy "new business" part of the proceedings.

I object to the broad brush approach. Do I think board members need to stay glued to every forum thread? Or that we need a new position to monitor and summarize every thread. C'mon, guys ... I mean there is a time and a place for hyperbole, but if you knew me you would not that I am really all about finding solutions and moving on.

The bottom line is that within 15 minutes of posting several people who seem to speak in some manner on behalf of the PDGA had taken time to not only read but respond to my post ... Q.E.D. that makes this forum a valuable avenue of communication.

agreed

I started a thread about two emails I sent to the PDGA after I had heard no response.

Within in 24 hours, someone contacted me about one of them.

I'd say the message board worked.



Wow, I had the same thing happen to me! I sent a few emails to the pdga looking for an answer to a simple question and got no response :confused: when I brought it up on the message board I got a call from Dave Gentry directly.

This DG public forum is a great tool!!!

Well done Joel Kelly!!!I just read about the typical Hammock tyrades!!Great golf, amigo!!