13 hours on the road & the Durango has crossed the Texas border. Thanks to all the Texas crew for the comraderie, support & friendship - what a great tournament. A huge thanks to the entertaining & helpful spotters. Thanks to all the tournament support staff & volunteers.
We also really appreciate the online accolades, support & commentary during the event on this board from our fellow Texans. Motts...your BPOE. Good luck in Rock Hill.
AH & JK

uhh.... drive like 13 hours?



Go to Disneyland?

Make that 5805 for Texas! :cool:

I just wanted to say Congratulations to Ken Climo and his 12th Title!!!

Something that all KC fans have been wishing for!!

KC 12X WORLD CHAMP!!!

And congrats to Des Reading on another world title! (although I hope the money figures are a typo and she actually earned more than Courtney & Burl!)

add second and third money together and divide by two for the tie. mayby thats what happened. :confused:

The average of 2 places (2nd and 3rd, for example) should never have a higher payout than 1st place. At least, that's the way it works in ball golf. I hope this is a typo, because for 1st place to be worth less than the tie for 2nd simply isn't right.

Well 4th got $800 so I'm sure that it was a typo and des got 2,050.

A big shout out to the guys and gals from Alabama who brought home $4,330 from Worlds ... including 3 of the top 7 spots in Masters.

And Mobile native Matt Orum, who at age 18 has finished top 10 the last two years ... and had to completely re-do his distinctive putting stroke before worlds because he ignored his Dad's advice and DIDN'T get the wrist surgery he should have last winter (I'll make his excuses for him). You do us proud Matt!

A big shout out to the guys and gals from Alabama who brought home $4,330 from Worlds ... including 3 of the top 7 spots in Masters.

And Mobile native Matt Orum, who at age 18 has finished top 10 the last two years ... and had to completely re-do his distinctive putting stroke before worlds because he ignored his Dad's advice and DIDN'T get the wrist surgery he should have last winter (I'll make his excuses for him). You do us proud Matt!



You mean I copied that putt for nothing? I mean that is how I have been putting for two weeks just so I could mess with him and now he stops! :D

Did Des actually win $2050? Is the $1050 just a typo?



Des won $1650. Brian's handwritten 6 looked like 0 when I quickly typed it in yesterday. I'll fix it tomorrow when I'm back on my computer.

would someone get Brad off the stage please?

Well 4th got $800 so I'm sure that it was a typo and des got 2,050.



$2050 might have been a more appropriate payout, but some fuzzy math it seems in the Open Women's division. The good news is that $1050 is a typo and Des actually got $1650. The bummer is that the Open Women Winner is the only winner to get less money than last year with more or equal numbers. Des got $100 less than last year with one extra woman paying in. The Open Men winner got $500 more than 2005 with 3 less players.

The weird part is how they massaged the payout from the set guidelines. Our conclusion looks at 25 women paying at 50% and comes out like this:

Places 2nd through 7th received $550 extra dollars that were massaged out of places 8th through 13th.
The kicker is that the Open Women's World Champion got $30 less than the payout calculator states to help increase 2nd through 7th. :confused:
I thought the new payout calculator already flattened the payout from place to place without the extra manipulation.
Even 4th place received $150 above what the 50% calculator suggests :confused: :confused:

This is in no way a #$*&$! at the host Augusta Club for running a beautiful World Championship with nice ammenities. We had a fabulous time in the Augusta region and look forward to a return trip. Lord knows Worlds isn't a money making opportunity, but for about ten of the three hundred players. Someday maybe. I guess you have to raise your own divisional sponsorship like the Senior Grandmasters did. ****, now I'm depressed :(

the PDGA does some FUZZY things :confused: does not seem like anyone follows any guidelines..

Jay tell Des CONGRATS

Hey yeti...Congrats to both of you...wish we could have been there...KC..you are the KING of DG...
and Yeti, what can we be expecting to see DES' name on so we ZZ can start throwin' em!!!!

Congrats Champ! What a truly classy player. Quite professional in everything he did. Glad I was able to get down there to watch. Good to see Avery finish well too.

Turned out the final with the most action was in the Masters with Brad coming back from 2 down. Never never let him on stage again. What a ham! :p Can't help but to be happy for him though. His joy was very infectious. A friend of mine brought his nephew and Brad was quite considerate and took the time to talk to him for a few minutes.

The FPO final was fun as well. Des had a lock on first with solid play. However, I was fortunate to be able to jump in as a caddy to have a ringside seat and let me tell you that 2nd place was hotly contested! Courtney and Angela are names we'll hear again.

Ditto on the spotters. The guy on #17 was the best. That rolling motion will be copied many times over.

Got Rocs?

Yetiyetiyetiyetiyeti! congrats to Des for her new world title and to the two of you for your combined mixed dubs world titles :-D I'll be amongst lots of royalty at the MSDGC and PawPaw this year :)

Yes....

:(

Comparing what a winner wins at one worlds to another is like comparing apples to oranges. The Open Women's division actually got $845 more this year with only one more entrant than last year. First place did indeed get $100 less this year than last but second through seventh all got more. A flatter payout may encourage more women to play pro. More women = larger purses. We paid out 147% of entry fees and 48% of the field in that division, which I believe were the highest percentages we paid in any division.

Thanks for a great 1st Pro World's experience Brian and everyone else from Augusta who worked their tails off. You guys did a great job! Thanks sincerely for putting this event together.

Now let's talk about that spotter on hole #18 at the drome. What a %$#@!^&^##%^&&*&^%%^&*(%#@@%&(*&%#$#$!!!!!!! I personally believe the TD should have removed him or something since he was notified by several cards of players about his actions. That's all I have to say about that! Everything else was just right.

:(

Comparing what a winner wins at one worlds to another is like comparing apples to oranges. The Open Women's division actually got $845 more this year with only one more entrant than last year. First place did indeed get $100 less this year than last but second through seventh all got more. A flatter payout may encourage more women to play pro. More women = larger purses. We paid out 147% of entry fees and 48% of the field in that division, which I believe were the highest percentages we paid in any division.



Hello this is Des Reading,
I have no problem with a flat payout, but this is the World Championships. Where after seven hard fought rounds a player emerges to the top to become the World Champion. I believe a portion of $845 EXTRA dollars should go to the winner, not less. Once again in all the other divisions, all winners with equal or more players recieved more or the same amount of pay. There has been huge discussion on how to encourage more men to turn pro, but the Open champion still gets a kick-back of an extra $500 with three less player? The Master Women's Champion also reaped the benefits of the Extra cash with the same entrants. I am one of the leaders when it comes to promoting women in the sport. Adjusting the payout from the bottom women players (the true players you are trying to encourage) and moving it to the middle and then slighting the World Champion is not a good move. The new 2006 PDGA pay tables already had been adjusted via the competition committee. Why manipulate the tables again? It's just not right.

Congrats on BOTH of yours championships .. Singles and doubles. When we going to see you guys back in TEXAS??

Now let's talk about that spotter on hole #18 at the drome. What a %$#@!^&^##%^&&*&^%%^&*(%#@@%&(*&%#$#$!!!!!!! I personally believe the TD should have removed him or something since he was notified by several cards of players about his actions. That's all I have to say about that! Everything else was just right.



What are you talking about??

A huge thank you to Brian Graham and all of the Worlds staff. Everything went very smoothly. Another big thanks to the spotters that braved the heat for us. I wish I knew sign language - Brian Graham showed me how to sign "Thank You."

CW, it was great to see you again and get in some practice with you. We had a fun battle going until that last day!!

I enjoyed playing with most of the people on my cards. It was a fun treat to play on the same card at PK with the only other 2 open players from Indiana. I don't think that I have ever played on the same card with those 2 in sanctioned play - just had to travel to Augusta to pull it off!!

We camped at Wildwood Park (home of the IDGC). What an absolutely beautiful place. Our campsite was about 70 feet from the shore of the lake and we spent plenty of time floating around out there. We played the North Course twice and it was a blast. Thanks to Brian Hoeniger for the cordial reception at PDGA HQ and letting us look around. If folks did not take the time to drive up to Wildwood Park, then they really missed out.

Thank you Augusta crew,
John Cavaletto

CONGRAT's DES!!!!!!!!! Job well done :D

How much more money should they have paid you Des?

I was referring to the spotter that had his phone ringing, then answered it, then had a conversation while I was trying to throw, then cursed me out for asking him to put it on vibrate because he had to work and that I needed to be grateful he was there to volunteer. Real wonderful person. Heard he was Pete May's marketing director, and that is why the TD didn't reprimand or remove him. Wasn't just me that he affected. Oh well, the spotter on #17 at the Lake made up for him big time.

Edit: Thanks, got my answer in PolishPower's post above.

while I do appreciate everything everyone did, that is def. not good. Good for you for speaking up.

And I agree, the spotter on 17 at the lake was the man. Not only did I know exactly what my disc was doing the entire time, he also grabbed a disc outta the water for me. What a great guy.

How much more money should they have paid you Des?



I'm guessing at least more than second place.

How much more money should they have paid you Des?



I'm guessing at least more than second place.



We've already established she did get more than 2nd place did.

Now let's talk about that spotter on hole #18 at the drome. What a %$#@!^&^##%^&&*&^%%^&*(%#@@%&(*&%#$#$!!!!!!! I personally believe the TD should have removed him or something since he was notified by several cards of players about his actions. That's all I have to say about that! Everything else was just right.



What are you talking about??



I didn't care for the first spotter on Hole 18 Hippodrome. He made a very bad call that overruled the players on our card. I heard other players from that round did not think he was making good calls either.

Hello this is Des Reading,
I have no problem with a flat payout, but this is the World Championships. Where after seven hard fought rounds a player emerges to the top to become the World Champion. I believe a portion of $845 EXTRA dollars should go to the winner, not less. Once again in all the other divisions, all winners with equal or more players recieved more or the same amount of pay. There has been huge discussion on how to encourage more men to turn pro, but the Open champion still gets a kick-back of an extra $500 with three less player? The Master Women's Champion also reaped the benefits of the Extra cash with the same entrants. I am one of the leaders when it comes to promoting women in the sport. Adjusting the payout from the bottom women players (the true players you are trying to encourage) and moving it to the middle and then slighting the World Champion is not a good move. The new 2006 PDGA pay tables already had been adjusted via the competition committee. Why manipulate the tables again? It's just not right.



Des,
Sorry if you feel slighted. It certainly wasn't done intentionally and I apologize on behalf of myself and the tournament. The final payout was posted for all to see on Friday evening. I did not personally calculate the payout but I did peruse and approve it, not knowing what was paid out the previous year or any other year. I guess that I was focused on the positives, which were that we added $1,770, paid out 147% of entry fees and 48% of the field in that division, the highest percentages of any of the divisions.

I do wish that you and Jay had brought your concerns to me before the event ended, when I could have easily addressed the issue, instead of waiting until after the fact and airing your frustrations on this Discussion page. I cannot fix something if I am not aware that it is broken and this forum is not the place to solve problems, in my opinion. Please feel free to call me if you would like to discuss the matter further.

Congratulations on your win. You are a great champion and I hope that this unfortunate incident does take away from your hard fought and well deserved victory.

PS: I believe you left your DGA Trophy basket at the tournament headquarters.

Regards,
Brian Graham
Tournament Director

And I agree, the spotter on 17 at the lake was the man. Not only did I know exactly what my disc was doing the entire time, he also grabbed a disc outta the water for me. What a great guy.



One note for all people willing to give up their time and spot. Please make some indication on the status of the disc on every throw, even when it seems obvious. It makes the players feel better to get a definitive response, even if it is a bad one.

Now let's talk about that spotter on hole #18 at the drome. What a %$#@!^&^##%^&&*&^%%^&*(%#@@%&(*&%#$#$!!!!!!! I personally believe the TD should have removed him or something since he was notified by several cards of players about his actions. That's all I have to say about that! Everything else was just right.



What are you talking about??



I didn't care for the first spotter on Hole 18 Hippodrome. He made a very bad call that overruled the players on our card. I heard other players from that round did not think he was making good calls either.


The rules state that a spotter has no authority to overrule a group call. Only the TD(s) or an official has that authority. If anything you could take a provisional. Personally, if the group ruled differently then the spotter and he/she was being belligerent, I would've told the spotter to shuv it and played on.

A spotter should not be making calls. Even if they are an official, they should not be making calls unless a member of the group specifically asks for their assistance because they have issue with the group decision. You are a spotter, not a referee.

I know 804.09C states differently, but when I spot I will make no ruling, including when asked, unless the group has taken the time to make one and then ask for advice. Even though I am a certified official. As a spotter, my job is to identify where the disc lies and to be cordial to the participants. I'll signal OB or safe, but if the group wants to take a look and rule for themselves, I get out of the way. I'm not sure where, but I am pretty sure that the rules state that the group should come to a ruling before getting an official involved. As a spotter, even if a certified official, to get involved without being asked by the group is inappropriate in my opinion. I've seen spotters get involved in things like stance violations and the like, and in my mind this is out of line.

Now, the challenging part is to be gracious to the volunteer in modifying his/her appproach without losing them.

A spotter designated by the TD is treated as an official. The rulings they make on the holes they spot overrule the card decisions.


804.09 - Officials
D. Non-playing certified officials may actively make rulings during any tournament play that they witness. If an official competes in a tournament, he or she may not officiate for any ruling within his or her own division. The official�s ruling supersedes the ruling of the group, but an appeal may be made to the tournament director. <font color="blue">The director may empower non-certified officials to act as spotters for a specific purpose. The ruling of such a spotter supersedes the ruling of the group.</font>

As a lefty, I was a bit annoyed by the spotter's chair and umbrella right in my line, but decided to ignore it. He didn't seem to be doing much and blatantly told people he only cared about the outside line. Since he was sitting on that line, he could only spot a shot that landed within 50 feet. He was not a disc golfer, but instead, a paid employee of the Hippodrome. You should have made a judgement call from your group. It was pretty obvious he was not that sharp to the gig. BUT the next spotter was trying to make up for his slack. The middle spotter was running between groups to help spot shots on both sides, and did a good job of both communicating lies and marking where they went out. Though he moved a disc of mine that was out by a foot or so that I would have liked to see, he was doing his best in the spirit of volunteerism. I applaud and thanked him for his efforts.

I also spent some time with another spotter to try to give him a better grasp of what he should be looking for on LO 11, where he was probably a little out of his league. His stool caused a disc to stay OB and only moved it after the player almost hit it again with his next shot. He got his deal down and was doing a righteous job by the end of the tournament.

A spotter designated by the TD is treated as an official. The rulings they make on the holes they spot overrule the card decisions.


804.09 - Officials
D. Non-playing certified officials may actively make rulings during any tournament play that they witness. If an official competes in a tournament, he or she may not officiate for any ruling within his or her own division. The official�s ruling supersedes the ruling of the group, but an appeal may be made to the tournament director. <font color="blue">The director may empower non-certified officials to act as spotters for a specific purpose. The ruling of such a spotter supersedes the ruling of the group.</font>




I stand corrected.

My question then would be do they have authority to call any ruling other than a disc's lie? e.g. can they call stance violations? If they can then I think this should be changed. I don't want a spotter ignorant of the rules to be calling things more complex than "this is where your disc crossed into O.B." That could be dangerous and very frustrating.

I agree that spotters should make an effort to refrain from making calls not related to their assigned function, but a spotter should make all of the calls related to the reason they are on the course.

One of the main reasons they are put on many holes is to speed up play and prevent time consuming debates on the status of discs that interacted with OB.

Was it IB before it went out, and where was it last IB. These are calls the spotters should always make if they had a good vantage point and know the spot. Only if they did not have a good view and aren't sure of the spot, should they leave it up to the card to make the decision.

So what should have been done about a spotter that cursed out competitors for asking him to turn his phone to vibrate? Should the TD at the drome have responded better to players concerns? Pete, will you backhand him for me and dock his pay?

But from 803.01D (below), I take it to mean that the group should rule, and the official should only get involved if appealed to. After that, 804.09 comes into play.

D. Appeals:
(1) When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of the doubt shall be given to the thrower. However, any player may seek the ruling of an official, and the official�s ruling shall supersede the group�s ruling. Any player desiring an appeal of the group�s decision shall promptly and clearly express that desire to the group.
(2) If an official is readily available, the group shall stand aside to seek the official�s ruling, allowing other groups to play through.

My question then would be do they have authority to call any ruling other than a disc's lie? e.g. can they call stance violations? If they can then I think this should be changed. I don't want a spotter ignorant of the rules to be calling things more complex than "this is where your disc crossed into O.B." That could be dangerous and very frustrating.




To more accurately answer that:
A non certified official acting as a spotter has no authority to act as an official beyond his assigned responsibility. Usually locating and marking discs.

A non-playing certified official acting as a spotter may make any call on any infraction they witness. Most wait until a clarification or assistance is requested, but they do are not required to. Often the TD will request that they to not since those calls often slow play and they are there to help speed play.

While that is a good point, we are talking about a non disc golfer here, not a PDGA member or much less a certified offical.

Until our sport gets to the point where we can afford to pay our officials and spotters, we will be forced to continue to use well intended volunteers. Unfortunately this means that occassionally, we will get a poor spot or a bad call. Sorry for any problems the spotter on hole 18 at the Hippodrome may have caused but how about Lionel Simmons, our deaf spotter on hole 17 at Lake Olmstead? Overall, I would have to say that our spotters, officials and Marshals did an excellent job.

Regards,
Brian Graham

Helping with where it was last was inbounds makes sense. I would assume almost all participants wouldn't have issue with this, and the vast majority of groups would come to the consensus that the spotters judgement is probably the best call to go with on such a matter. "Helping' being a key word.

Thank you Gary for that clarification post.

Mr. Keifer's misunderstanding of when an official can rule is a common one. Additionally, it is not fair to the game as a whole for an official to observe a group making a blatantly wrong call and not get involved. Nonetheless, there are tournaments where instructions are given to the spotters and non-playing officials to refrain from getting involved in calls unless requested.

According to the rules, there is no restriction on when a non-playing official can make a ruling.

My question then would be do they have authority to call any ruling other than a disc's lie? e.g. can they call stance violations? If they can then I think this should be changed. I don't want a spotter ignorant of the rules to be calling things more complex than "this is where your disc crossed into O.B." That could be dangerous and very frustrating.




To more accurately answer that:
A non certified official acting as a spotter has no authority to act as an official beyond his assigned responsibility. Usually locating and marking discs.

A non-playing certified official acting as a spotter may make any call on any infraction they witness. Most wait until a clarification or assistance is requested, but they do are not required to. Often the TD will request that they to not since those calls often slow play and they are there to help speed play.


Is this in writing somewhere? I can't find it.

Also, if the guy wasn't a disc golfer, then he probably wasn't a PDGA member either, would that nullify his ability to be an official even at the TDs disgression?

Until our sport gets to the point where we can afford to pay our officials and spotters, we will be forced to continue to use well intended volunteers. Unfortunately this means that occassionally, we will get a poor spot or a bad call. Sorry for any problems the spotter on hole 18 at the Hippodrome may have caused but how about Lionel Simmons, our deaf spotter on hole 17 at Lake Olmstead? Overall, I would have to say that our spotters, officials and Marshals did an excellent job.

Regards,
Brian Graham



The spotters, volunteers, marshalls and pretty much everything involved with this past week was awesome. You guys did an awesome job.

Lionel is the man! He should give spotting clinics to all the rest. Heck, he had the flags rolling, jumping rocks, and I swear he indicated a disc was floating, then sinking. Truly awesome. I can't believe he didn't fall at least one time down 17's incline, on his way up and down religiously. He must have wicked calf muscles now! :D

Correct, but 803.01 infers that the group should be encouraged to make their own ruling before seeking appeal. Officials handle appeals, not follow groups with yellow flags and assess penalties.

Now, if it is blantant (a member of a group is about to throw from OB as no one in the group paid attention at the players meeting), then I can see speaking up. But in my mind, a stance violation or the like is the responsibility of the group.

I will quote myself from about 5 pages back about Lionel. and add a little demonstration of the new technique he did for me.




Best volunteer of the tourney: The spotter on hole 17 at Lake Olmstead. Deaf disc golfer who just upped the level of spotting for the world of disc golf. With a steep hill that players drove onto, and often rolled off of, he improv'ed the greatest new spotter gesture. We all know safe and OB, but he added rolling to the mix. I have some pictures of him demonstrating this technique that all spotters should be taught, it's like having a sports commentator right there on the course. Good job! It relieved tension on a very tense hole (especially for us lefties!)



http://www.innovadiscs.com/images/proworlds-lionel.jpg

I don't feel slighted solely for myself, but for the other women at the lower end of the payout. You are correct that this board might not be the best place to voice, but it is the only sound board we have when things aren't as it seems. Jay did address Brian Hoeniger as soon as we noticed something didn't seem quite right. He was given a flury of stats and Brian H left it at that. The BBQ Friday night was the only event we missed due to exhaustion even though we pre-paid for the charity function. Saturday was a rain delay morning round at another course that left the Open Women 30 minutes before they were to tee off for the Final Nine.
This sport can be very frustrating for the players that give so much of their valuable time to helping new players and pushing the sport to the next level. The PDGA uses our likenesses on magazines and videos, playing cards and the like. We are very happy to contribute in this manner, we only wish that these groups and players are given the same effort.

Again Brian, hats off to you and like the first post stated this was not complaining at you, but rather correcting the initial inquiry about the women's payout and then making others aware of our findings. It was a very fun Worlds and you guys ran a smooth ship. Thanks for you and your staffs very hard work. :D

My question then would be do they have authority to call any ruling other than a disc's lie? e.g. can they call stance violations? If they can then I think this should be changed. I don't want a spotter ignorant of the rules to be calling things more complex than "this is where your disc crossed into O.B." That could be dangerous and very frustrating.




To more accurately answer that:
A non certified official acting as a spotter has no authority to act as an official beyond his assigned responsibility. Usually locating and marking discs.

A non-playing certified official acting as a spotter may make any call on any infraction they witness. Most wait until a clarification or assistance is requested, but they do are not required to. Often the TD will request that they to not since those calls often slow play and they are there to help speed play.


Is this in writing somewhere? I can't find it.

Also, if the guy wasn't a disc golfer, then he probably wasn't a PDGA member either, would that nullify his ability to be an official even at the TDs disgression?



The last part "<font color="blue">The director may empower non-certified officials to act as spotters for a specific purpose. The ruling of such a spotter supersedes the ruling of the group.</font>" allows the spotter to act as an official and overrule the calls of the group, but also limits that power to a specific purpose.

The first part "<font color="blue">Non-playing certified officials may actively make rulings during any tournament play that they witness.</font>" allow for any non-playing ceritified official to become involved in any call they witness whether asked or not.

The D. paragraph is not formatted properly on line. In the on-line rules it is shown as a continuation of the C. paragraph. In the PDF version link (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2006/PDGA.2006.rulebook.final.pdf) listed on the home page it is formatted properly.

Officials handle appeals, not follow groups with yellow flags and assess penalties.



While you are certainly entitled to your opinion about this, the above statement is not supported by a reading of the rules. Rulings by non-playing certified officials are not limited to appeals.

Isn't that why SS was following someone in Masters???? :o

Who is SS :confused:

How many professional players voiced their concerns about this spotter? According to the TD at the course, many. How many other spotters had complaints? Will player B teach player A how to keep it smooth during rounds in front of 500 spectators?

We�ve heard one side of an anecdote re the spotter on Hippodrome 18. Let�s consider another that I was told firsthand.

A player had thrown OB left on his first shot, and was beginning to set up his 2nd / 3rd when the spotter�s cell phone ~100 ft away went off. The player had not begun his run-up. He proceeded to throw his shot OB right. He then said something to the effect of �hey pal, thanks a lot� and then began walking towards the spotter, apparently to add emphasis to the responsibility he was assigning the spotter instead of himself for his OB shot(s). Another player in the group � with a number of Worlds top 5 finishes years ago � moved as well, intercepted player A and told him to move on. Player B then approached the spotter and noted that by his clothes and his watch this was not your every day spotter. The gentlemen was a senior marketing person at Morris Communications which owns the Chronicle, the National Barrel Horse Association, etc, who frankly was moreso observing/learning the game than spotting. From a Worlds OB line perspective perhaps he should not have been there, but he was. Back to the story. Player B, who is also quite successful, and the spotter had a friendly discussion, the spotter was truly apologetic about the cell phone, the player talked about the game, the spotter told him who he was. Player B then went back to the group and said �about what happened back there, by the way this is who that guy is, he then turned to player A and said �you had not even begun your run up. How are you going to react when there are 500 people standing along the hole 10 meters from the OB line and you hear something during your backswing ?�

Seen from this angle, the smaller immediate context/reality is that an executive�s cell phone went off during Worlds while a player who had just thrown OB was sizing his next shot on a long and tricky par 5. The larger context is that this �PRO� player�s reaction took a potential win for the game towards a potential loss that was saved by the quick thinking of player B.

Back to the debate �


Maybe we shouldn't ask someone like this to be a spotter? If he is that important, it wouldn't seem the brightest idea to put him in a position where he would be telling stressed out golfers things they don't want to hear. Recipe for disaster, especially with some of the volatile characters in our sport.

I am well aware that 804.09 allows for an official to get involved and make a ruling whenever they'd care to. I am also a realist and take into account that someone who is an official who just happens to be there really shouldn't get involved unless asked or assigned to do so. 803.01 infers this, and my officials test (if I remember correctly from 10 years ago) actually had a question on it that inferred that the group should be encouraged to make a ruling before the official got involved.

Could you imagine some 'yahoo' with an officials card deciding he's going to make a call from the gallery during the final nine last Saturday? How about a group of people standing on the road drinking beer during the Am day of a tournament when one of them notices a falling putt from afar and decides that as an official that he should get involved? (yes, this is a real life example)

I guess what I am implying here is that while 804.09 allows for an official to become a zealot and follow around someone they dislike for a round to harrass them for missing their mini on the run-up, a sense of discretion as provided for in 803.01 is probably a better course. Unless every hole or every group has an official who is going to act as a referee, to selectively do so on a single hole or for a single group unless specifically assigned to do so by the TD because of some issue (usually a 'behavior' thing) seems inappropriate. I've seen certified officials consumed by power trips, and the result has usually been less than beneficial.

Just wanted to thank Brian and all of Augusta for a great time this week! It was a non-stop great time throughout the entire week!
Thanks to all the staff/volunteers for all of the hard work preparing for the event ... the courses were awesome! There were water coolers Everywhere.... Always filled with cold water!! Sweet! And thanks to all of the spotters for sitting out in the crazy heat all day!!! That was great!
And Thanks for the good food and the hospitality and everything!!
Looking forward to the next event in Augusta!

All players should be calling all infractions already.

If a non-playing official notices on that slipped past the attention of the other players on the card, he is only doing his part to make sure that all of the competitors enjoy a fairly played game. :cool:

I also want to thank all the spotters, well done!

My only negative was the placement of the legends. Please understand that I fully want them to play and compete in the Worlds. I think it's great that there's people of all ages that want to play and I hope that I can perform as well when I'm that age. With that being said, for any future World's, please, PLEASE have shorter courses/ shorter tees for them to play. It is extremely unfair to those playing behind them to have so many long backups. The first round had a 5 card backup on hole 4 at Riverview, a hole that normally has backups, then a 2-3 card backup for the next 9 holes. The second day, the legends were moved to the middle. While I had moved up 6 cards and thought I would be safe- they were placed right in front of my card. We had long waits, painfully long waits for 10 holes, until the courses TD finally pulled them off the course for about 20 min. Yes, I know it's not "all about me" or the other players in the groups playing behind the legends. But it's very frustrating to have such extended waits because you lose any rhythm and each tee and putt is almost like the very first of the day. Please don't misunderstand, I want the legends to play at the World's, but please let them play on shorter courses/ shorter tees and not on courses like Lake Olmsted or Riverview that have such difficult terrain. Thanks for allowing me to vent.

I also want to thank all the spotters, well done!

My only negative was the placement of the legends. Please understand that I fully want them to play and compete in the Worlds. I think it's great that there's people of all ages that want to play and I hope that I can perform as well when I'm that age. With that being said, for any future World's, please, PLEASE have shorter courses/ shorter tees for them to play. It is extremely unfair to those playing behind them to have so many long backups. The first round had a 5 card backup on hole 4 at Riverview, a hole that normally has backups, then a 2-3 card backup for the next 9 holes. The second day, the legends were moved to the middle. While I had moved up 6 cards and thought I would be safe- they were placed right in front of my card. We had long waits, painfully long waits for 10 holes, until the courses TD finally pulled them off the course for about 20 min. Yes, I know it's not "all about me" or the other players in the groups playing behind the legends. But it's very frustrating to have such extended waits because you lose any rhythm and each tee and putt is almost like the very first of the day. Please don't misunderstand, I want the legends to play at the World's, but please let them play on shorter courses/ shorter tees and not on courses like Lake Olmsted or Riverview that have such difficult terrain. Thanks for allowing me to vent.



This comes up every year. At Pro Worlds last year, the course TDs did just about everything humanly possible to speed up the two Legends groups. Each one was provided his own caddy. They were continually fed fresh water. If I'm not mistaken, they were even driven via car out to their starting holes. They had shorter tees. The Legends were (as professionally as possible) urged to keep up their speed of play. And yet they still took a full 5+ hours to complete some rounds.

I don't know that there's a resolution to this issue.

Well, like just about every sport in its youth/young adulthood, a lot of what we learn and implement procedures from is the result of a specific incident. In this case, the event wide policy (at Majors/NTs /) should be all cell phones off or set to "buzz."


Sounds great. Thanks for listening to our concerns. What we learn now will make things more smooth down the road.

I don't know that there's a resolution to this issue.



There is a resolution, and it was employed on the third day: give em short boxes on easy terrain. Don't have them play 400 foot holes, or holes with difficult walking terrain. That's not fair to them or the groups behind them.

While I didn't like the wait, it was pretty nice to see them out there enjoying the sport.

You are correct that this board might not be the best place to voice, but it is the only sound board we have when things aren't as it seems.



I absolutely agree with this statement...Well put, Des!

For those of you who were not there and were wondering if this was a first class event, the only complaints I have heard were

1. First place payout in womens was low
2. A non disc golf spotter forgot to turn his phone off
3. The legends were slow.

Enough said. Not a thing said about anything else. Proof of a world class event. Brian Graham for TD of the year!

There's another solution. Give them a cart! Seriously. Allow them to play with a cart by the "Speed of play" rule. For most courses at highbridge, I imagine it wouldn't be an issue since that was a golf course before becoming multiple disc golf courses.

Get a local golf club to sponsor the cart. Explain that there are some great players over 70 years old that would really benefit from having a cart for the week. It's a weekday event so a lot of golf courses will not be maxed out. That's good, vital, beneficial sponsorship.

I had the pleasure of being the Course Director at the Hippodrome course all week and would like to thank Brian Graham and the rest of the Augusta club for the opportunity to be at "The Hip", in my opinion, the most technical of the courses used this year.

In addition, congrats to all the divisional winners and especially to Kenny and Des (I think Brad is still on the stage stirring the pot,...ahem, I mean making his acceptance speech). Kenny had title #12 in his sites and systematically performed the motions to win it. Hats off to Nate for being the runner up and proving his mettle and also for his honesty in his speech at the awards. Solid overall play put Avery and Moser in the final and it was impressive and exciting to watch both of them.

I definitely want to mention John E. McCray, as after discovering that the tee time was an hour earlier than previous days and taking two 7's on holes #1 &amp; #2 (both are "birdie" holes, especially #1) for being late, shot a 54 at Riverview and stunned the other players and the gallery with some of the best golf I saw all weekend. I know that this is completely hypothetical, but I'm also not stretching the realm of possibilty; if you subtract his penalty strokes and give him similar scores as the other players on #1 &amp; #2, I believe John E. would've been one or two strokes off Kenny going into the final. If nothing else, I believe John E. has showed the disc golf community why he has the #5 player rating and the #11 world ranking. In addition, I believe John E.'s best golf is still ahead of him.

The spotter on #18 at Hippodrome was Bill. Bill was the epicenter of quite a bit of discussion amongst the players and staff. In addition to the story that Brian has mentioned above, there were other legitimate concerns with his spotting ability. Through conversation with him, I discovered that as a spotter, his interpretation of his job description was to watch the left OB line only and for only a specific section of the left OB line. In addition, he noted that he received his instructions directly from Pete May and seemed to be uninterested in further instruction. I mentioned to him that both sides were equally important and towards the end he was watching both OB lines. That being said, I was also informed that the spotting crew was actually paid staff from the National Barrel Horse Association, which left my hands a bit tied when it came to issuing orders.

As far as his actual "spotting" abilities, Bill was adequate at best. As far as actually being a spotter, he was probably the worst I have ever worked with. Not only did his cell phone ring constantly (I had 2 players tell me they were readying shots within 20-25 feet while he continued to talk on the phone), but he did have additional, unnecessary, and sometimes confrontational conversation with the players. I mentioned my concerns to the other event staff each of the 3 days and by day three I actually took over spotting duties on the entire front half of the 1100'+ hole. Other complaints included openly mentioning that he had "no idea" where the spot was due his phone conversations and also for his decision to not move while players attempted shots from the left side of the fairway which was near his chair, umbrella and cooler.

First and foremost, I blame Bill's attitude and his interpretation of his job description. Had he been more mobile and willing to locate both the distance and trajectory like the final spotter on #18 (he watched the final drive area and part of the right turn leading towards the basket), there would alot less complaints about why he was there in the first place and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Finally, I'm not sure if my concerns were ever relayed to Pete, who, as their boss, had ultimate authority.

Thanks,
Mike Barnett

Im sure if any golfers had knocked over a barrel, he would have been right on top of that!

I am well aware that 804.09 allows for an official to get involved and make a ruling whenever they'd care to. I am also a realist and take into account that someone who is an official who just happens to be there really shouldn't get involved unless asked or assigned to do so. 803.01 infers this, and my officials test (if I remember correctly from 10 years ago) actually had a question on it that inferred that the group should be encouraged to make a ruling before the official got involved.

Could you imagine some 'yahoo' with an officials card deciding he's going to make a call from the gallery during the final nine last Saturday? How about a group of people standing on the road drinking beer during the Am day of a tournament when one of them notices a falling putt from afar and decides that as an official that he should get involved? (yes, this is a real life example)

I guess what I am implying here is that while 804.09 allows for an official to become a zealot and follow around someone they dislike for a round to harrass them for missing their mini on the run-up, a sense of discretion as provided for in 803.01 is probably a better course. Unless every hole or every group has an official who is going to act as a referee, to selectively do so on a single hole or for a single group unless specifically assigned to do so by the TD because of some issue (usually a 'behavior' thing) seems inappropriate. I've seen certified officials consumed by power trips, and the result has usually been less than beneficial.



Power trip = BAD
Calling rules infractions = GOOD

John E Mac would have been 1 behind kenny with 2 birdies, 2 behind with 1 birdie, etc etc etc

Awright, y'all got me curious. Just WHAT was Brad saying during his accepance speech? Feel free to PM me if you choose. I heard something about a possible penalty and I'm interested since he was playing against a couple of friends of mine (Dean and Joe Thacker). thanks, rWc3523 :cool:

We are also looking at minimum player ratings for the different divisions to be able to play Pro Worlds, nothing nasty, rather lines that would prevent a player far below the average caliber in a division from being invited.


they might not get invited but they will just get in off the wait-list because we have all seen that WORLDS WILL NOT FILL!!!! and with renewal fees going up and sure there will be less participation. just my 2cents

Thank you Mike for this post. I also thank you for listening and acknowledging legitimate player concerns at the park, not lookng for an easy way out and giving us the run around. It is apparent that you saw and heard things the same way I did, as well as the two cards playing in front of mine. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't have an expectation on some four digit players to understand that. I mean afterall, they may still be using a rotary phone.

also does anyone know what Avery was throwing during the BIG D contest???

also does anyone know what Avery was throwing during the BIG D contest???



INNOVA. :D

Star Wraith

also does anyone know what Avery was throwing during the BIG D contest???



I talked to him and Coda Friday at Hippodrome. They both threw Star T-Rexes for their longest throws.

561 FT.
KABOOM! Avery looks like he is as thick as a cinder block wall!

My hat is off to Des Reading for posting her comments about the payouts for the Women's Division. As the best player in the world and a role model and spokesperson for many players male and female it was potentially a slippery slope she tread on to air her thoughts about the payout. Her comments were expressed very eloquently and I applaud Des for being courageous and "going there".

As I read her comments and the follow-up by Brian Graham, the feeling I had was I guess a cross between frustration and "professional sadness". Did I read it correctly: "There was $1770 added to the Open Women's division"?

Our World Championships only added $1770 to the Women's Division?

I'm not crucifying or judging or finding fault with anyone in particular if this is accurate. I'm a National Tour event director and long-time promotor so I'm certainly aware of the difficulty in attracting corporate sponsors. So I'm simply offering observation.

But it's really ashame that the World Championships can only come up with $1770 added cash for the best Women's players on the planet.

I also don't want to indict current PDGA staff members or John Duesler, the marketing whiz for the PDGA. I know that appealing to corporate sponsors is a function of the evolution of our sport and how effectively we reach out at the grassroots level.

But if there's one lesson I learned from this discussion it is that we're still mostly playing for each other's cash. I can't wait for the day when Des can make a good living off of her expertise in and passion for such a wonderful sport.

The same can be said for The Champ's first-place payoff. The $5000+ prize certainly is nice, but is still paltry when compared to cash prizes in "sports" that many of us would be embarassed to even consider a sport.

I'd be curious to know what the total added cash was for the Worlds. If this is public information I'd love to know the answer.

Again, not trying to step on any toes. Just observing....

Dan Doyle
Warwick, NY

The spotter on #18 at Hippodrome was Bill. Bill was the epicenter of quite a bit of discussion amongst the players and staff. In addition to the story that Brian has mentioned above, there were other legitimate concerns with his spotting ability. Through conversation with him, I discovered that as a spotter, his interpretation of his job description was to watch the left OB line only and for only a specific section of the left OB line. In addition, he noted that he received his instructions directly from Pete May and seemed to be uninterested in further instruction. I mentioned to him that both sides were equally important and towards the end he was watching both OB lines. That being said, I was also informed that the spotting crew was actually paid staff from the National Barrel Horse Association, which left my hands a bit tied when it came to issuing orders.

As far as his actual "spotting" abilities, Bill was adequate at best. As far as actually being a spotter, he was probably the worst I have ever worked with. Not only did his cell phone ring constantly (I had 2 players tell me they were readying shots within 20-25 feet while he continued to talk on the phone), but he did have additional, unnecessary, and sometimes confrontational conversation with the players. I mentioned my concerns to the other event staff each of the 3 days and by day three I actually took over spotting duties on the entire front half of the 1100'+ hole. Other complaints included openly mentioning that he had "no idea" where the spot was due his phone conversations and also for his decision to not move while players attempted shots from the left side of the fairway which was near his chair, umbrella and cooler.

First and foremost, I blame Bill's attitude and his interpretation of his job description. Had he been more mobile and willing to locate both the distance and trajectory like the final spotter on #18 (he watched the final drive area and part of the right turn leading towards the basket), there would alot less complaints about why he was there in the first place and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Finally, I'm not sure if my concerns were ever relayed to Pete, who, as their boss, had ultimate authority.

Thanks,
Mike Barnett



I also thank you Mike for providing your firsthand official report of this issue, which supersedes prior anecdotal evidence given. Clearly, there are lessons to be learned about the appropriateness of the choice of spotters and their level of education. As the sport continues to grow, volunteer and spectator behavior is clearly something that needs to be addressed in our National Tour guidelines and our Rules of Play.

thanks EOG I knew it would be T-rex's

Mike thanks for everything you do! You are a true promoter of the sport and volunteer. This sport needs more people like you. I'm pround to be a member of your team.

Buy SunKing discs!

Hats off to Nate for being the runner up and proving his mettle and also for his honesty in his speech at the awards.


What's this all about?

Nate pretty much said that he just lost to the best disc golfer of all time and what Kenny does is amazing.

I don't remember exactly what else he said (I remember him thanking people for small things like spectating and clapping), but I got the sense he was a genuinely gracious person.

Dan,

The payout of the 2006 PDGA Pro World Championships was $83,000, which is second only to the Ann Arbor Pro/Am combined Worlds as the largest purse in the history of the event. This figure includes $24,500 added cash. The $1,650 that Des got for first place ranks as the third highest payout ever for the winner in that division and was only $115 less than the record payout of $1765 in Ann Arbor and only $100 less than she won last year in Pennsylvania. The field of 25 women in Augusta ranks as only the 8th largest field for that division.

In addition to the payout, we donated $15,000 to the Educational Disc Golf Experience and another $10,000 to the International Disc Golf Center endowment fund. Most of this due to the support of our presenting sponsor, Innova Discs.

Here's a nugget of information most people do not know. Augusta had no plans for hosting the 2006 Pro Worlds but there were no bids for the event so Pete May talked me into it and we agreed to host the event. I would have liked to had two years to plan an event of this magnitude but due to these circumstances, we had only one. I am very proud of what we accomplished given the circumstances and the fact that the Augusta Disc Golf Association is probably one of the smallest clubs to ever host the Worlds.

BTW: Des and I spoke on the phone this afternoon and everything is good with us.

Regards,
Brian Graham

As far as his actual "spotting" abilities, "he" was adequate at best. As far as actually being a spotter, he was probably the worst I have ever worked with.



Mike,
I have never read such a detailed review of a spotter's performance at a disc golf tournament.
Insightful, and thought provoking, your narrative made me especially proud of my performance as a volunteer/spotter at Tulsa's Am Worlds.
I took my job seriously. I actually practiced spotting on my hole the day before Am Worlds started. I arrived early all five days of competition. I picked up limbs, branches, and trash before each round. I did my very best to not distract any of the players. I wanted to put forth the kind of effort the players, and the Tulsa club, deserved- and I feel I succeeded.
I hope none of you let the actions of one bad spotter tarnish your opinion of all spotters. One bad apple...
To my fellow spotters- Let this be a wake up call! It's time for us to develop formal guidelines or a "Spotters Code of Ethics". The next time I read about a spotter on this board I want it to be something positive. :)

As the TD on the course that Jeff Ash was working I will say he was 110% dedicated and did exactly what he just posted. Thanks and well done Jeff. You are a credit to the society of disc golf spotters.

Jeff,

Very nice speech and an excellent job of spotting you did. Ever prepared with your crooked stick to retrieve the odd disc that fell in the water. Well actually, on that hole it was probably not an odd, but a regular occasion. I say three hoorahs for the head spotter! :p





As far as his actual "spotting" abilities, "he" was adequate at best. As far as actually being a spotter, he was probably the worst I have ever worked with.



Mike,
I have never read such a detailed review of a spotter's performance at a disc golf tournament.
Insightful, and thought provoking, your narrative made me especially proud of my performance as a volunteer/spotter at Tulsa's Am Worlds.
I took my job seriously. I actually practiced spotting on my hole the day before Am Worlds started. I arrived early all five days of competition. I picked up limbs, branches, and trash before each round. I did my very best to not distract any of the players. I wanted to put forth the kind of effort the players, and the Tulsa club, deserved- and I feel I succeeded.
I hope none of you let the actions of one bad spotter tarnish your opinion of all spotters. One bad apple...
To my fellow spotters- Let this be a wake up call! It's time for us to develop formal guidelines or a "Spotters Code of Ethics". The next time I read about a spotter on this board I want it to be something positive. :)

I would like to THANK all the spotters at Am WORLDS,you all did a GOOD JOB.

As far as his actual "spotting" abilities, "he" was adequate at best. As far as actually being a spotter, he was probably the worst I have ever worked with.



Mike,
I have never read such a detailed review of a spotter's performance at a disc golf tournament.
Insightful, and thought provoking, your narrative made me especially proud of my performance as a volunteer/spotter at Tulsa's Am Worlds.
I took my job seriously. I actually practiced spotting on my hole the day before Am Worlds started. I arrived early all five days of competition. I picked up limbs, branches, and trash before each round. I did my very best to not distract any of the players. I wanted to put forth the kind of effort the players, and the Tulsa club, deserved- and I feel I succeeded.
I hope none of you let the actions of one bad spotter tarnish your opinion of all spotters. One bad apple...
To my fellow spotters- Let this be a wake up call! It's time for us to develop formal guidelines or a "Spotters Code of Ethics". The next time I read about a spotter on this board I want it to be something positive. :)



I too praise Jeff's skills as a spotter, on hole 10 at Black Jeff witnessed my upshot take a swim and he acted like a complete gentleman. I never felt that awkward silence while fishing it out either. Thanks again Jeff for donating your professional spotter services.

And to those of you who are unaware, if you fail to thank a spotter for spotting BAD KARMA will follow you through the rest of your round...BELIEVE IT!!

Congrats to Kenny and Des on their stellar play. As well to the Readings for their Doubles performance. I have to also reiterate some of the statements made by Sun King about John E McCray. The guy is a truly an incredible golfer, makes the game look way too easy! But even more than that, he is one of the nicest people you will ever meet on or off the golf course. I got to play with John E. in Bowling Green this year, and it was without a doubt the most relaxed and enjoyable round I played in a tourney ever. He is a great ambassador for the sport and human being in general. Probably even more impressive about his golfing skills is the fact that the ONLY tourneys he plays all year besides one's in Florida are BG, Worlds, and USDGC's. And he's almost always in contention at every event he plays at. It's too bad he had to take those 7's. He will no doubt contend for a Worlds or USDGC's in the near future.

First of all, congratulations to Des Reading and Ken Climo. Woohoo. New discs with the same names and new numbers. You have great reason to be proud. How wonderful it must be to fall asleep each night with the mundane concerns of the day blanketed under the knowledge that you are, once again, World Champion. Yeah baby.

The payouts are always a fertile ground for debate. Probably any deviation from the PDGA's payout tables should go up, and never down. You can't go down. That would be as stoopid as not refunding players' money when you have a waiting list, regretting the decision, putting most of the money into the Ace Pot in a lame attempt at correcting the wrong, and then deciding to refund everyone's money IF they decide to show up again.

But that's getting away from it.

Sounds like there wasn't quite enough money to go around, so they trimmed the Pro Women's purse. Let's make a list of things not to do, and put this at the top.

Everyone said it was a great tournament, though, and it SOUNDED great. The bad spotter made for entertaining reading and perhaps will be read as part of our upcoming msdgc meeting. There is no such thing as a great tournament without screwups, because the bar is set high and elaborately. It's the nature of the mega-tournament.

Funny how I keep forgetting which thread I'm on. Apologies all around.

i know i had some fun with the spotter on hole 18, in the round on friday i threw ob left about 40 or 50 ft short of the spotters chair ( not my best effort there ). In the time from my throw to whe i got to the next shot he went to his car and came back and proceeded to try to tie up his umbrella so it wouldnt fall over again, right as i was starting my run up, so i stopped and stepped back and waited for him to finish. Then i set up again after he sat down when he promptly began to refill his drink with ice from his cooler, so needless to say i stopped again and waited for him to stop moving. I tell you i was hard pressed not to throw my shot right into his umbrella and take the stroke penalty then move on, but i didnt. I tried showing restraint so i would cause myself more pain than it was worth. Just my story about the spotter..... Other than that i really enjoyed my first worlds experience
mj

It's now starting to sound like a conspiracy devised north of our border to destroy Charlotte disc golfers. :D

Don't you mean first Wood experiences I'm confused

OK, good spotter stories.

Spotters on Holes 1 and 3 at Hippo were great. Really. Courteous and easy to understand. We had a guy throw a disc that was less than a centimeter in bounds, so they showed up the "inches" football referee motion. The girls on 3 were invisible until you threw, then popped out of the woods to notify the disc's lie, then retreated again while throwing. The second spotter on 18 Hippo on Friday (might have been Mike B, but I doubt it, he was working hard, covering first and second drives for all groups, and apologizing for the guy in the lawn chair who felt the minimum was acceptable. Pete, give him a raise, sounds like upper management material to me! :) And the third spotter on 18 was good too. Don't remember much about him as I stayed out of trouble there for the most part.

The camera crews were also pretty easy to deal with. They stayed quiet and still and were not a hindrance. Gotta get more used to that if we want better coverage in the future.

Lots of great TV and Newspaper coverage added up to a well publicized tournament, at least on the local front. Our day will come when the Worlds will get covered by BIG networks, even if it is OLN or Fox Sports. Something that's not regional or market selective.

You big sexy cashing he-stud you! Congrats MP!

As the TD on the course that Jeff Ash was working I will say he was 110% dedicated and did exactly what he just posted. Thanks and well done Jeff. You are a credit to the society of disc golf spotters.



Aw, shucks... :o
I had good role models- Des and Jay Reading- San Saba, Texas- 2003 Am World Doubles. :)
I used a combination of their techniques- a hybrid if you will.
When I wasn't working my butt off like Des did, I was sitting on my butt like Jay did. :D
On behalf of my many fellow disc golf spotters-
Thank you for saying "Thank you"!
Chris- You get credit for coming up with the name for our new club- The Society of Disc Golf Spotters.
Matt Peckham- I want the names of those spotters you referred to. They sound like possible Board Members. :D

thanks mitt'nz. See you in 10 days or so!

http://www.pdga.com/images/06proworlds/SaturdayAwardsAllDivisions/images/DSC_0219.jpg


Do you see how everyone is looking at Brad? I think he is going to get jumped. :D

BTW does that envelope say Emory?

What did Hammock say?

basically he waslike "Why am I the guy everyone hates,I guess I'm just that guy" and he went on and on and on.

It was wierd

My compliments to the entire staff, especially the deaf spotters. Their hand signals were great.
During the 4th round, my last, I think it was Walter taking pix of us in front of the big scoreboard. Where can I find those?
Really felt bad, in more ways than one, about missing the last few rounds. Sounds like it was a huge success.
Funny, how you never hear the winners complain about anything.
BTW, great players pack, especially the shirt. Turned out to be my big prize.

Taken from the SNDG message board from a player who was in Brad's group..

Brad, the self-proclaimed "Georgia Birdie Machine", fellow Capricorn to Tiger, the one who plays well when Tiger plays well (all excerpts from his "speech"), had a bad break on Hole 16 at Lake Olmstead on Thursday. His drive hit the basket, and then rolled about 200 feet OB into the lake. He settled for a 5. There was a two-group backup on Hole 17 and a steep hill to walk down to get to the tee. On a manhole cover adjacent to the trail, a stone cairn was erected, presumably by people hiking to 17's teepad. Brad took several vicious kicks to destory the cairn, and then proceeded to cuss at everyone who pointed out his behaviour, spreading FUs for all. He called one golfer a "#$*&$!" and threatened to kick him in the b#lls. It was a shameful display of immaturity.

Discussions ensued immediately with Brian Graham, and a "formal" discussion was held after the round. Brad claimed that he "stumbled" into the rocks and "accidentally" knocked them over. Along with about 20 others, I saw what really happened (no stumbling). A one stroke penalty could have been @#$%&, but consider this: On Wednesday, an open division player landed behind the cairn and was forced to throw around it, thus making this cairn an obstacle and part of the course. Willful destruction of the course is grounds for immediate DQ.

Brad was warned that his next outbreak would get him booted, and I played several subsequent rounds with the "nice" Brad, whose only negative comment was to ask me to "Not ask him stupid questions on the teepad", his response to my efforts to be friendly. It shows that Brad can act acceptably, and does not have to be a jerk. He is a great player, but has terrible sportsmanship. He did not even thank his sponsor during his speech. In Brad's own words, "Winning all the time is bittersweet". I personally would rather finish last, with pride, than first with none.

Just think... Brad won by 1 stroke!! What would of happened if he had benn penalized for his actions??

interesting post, but Brad did thank his sponser, right at the end. I guess some people missed it due to the yelling at him to get off the stage.

As for the bad break, yeah I heard he had the basket and rolled in the water but I didn't hear the rest of that. Wow, thats crazy.

wow... a TTru role model to finger mullets everywhere

do i need permission for my new sig?

As for the bad break, yeah I heard he had the basket and rolled in the water but I didn't hear the rest of that.



Did he play from down by the water or back at his original lie like he could have? I figured some players on 16 and 18 probably banged and rolled all the way down into the water and forgot they could play from their original lie instead of going down by the water.

well he hit the basket from the tee, so I doubt he would have chose to re-tee. Its not that hard of an up down from the water as long as you don't roll.

Brad, the self-proclaimed "Georgia Birdie Machine", fellow Capricorn to Tiger, the one who plays well when Tiger plays well (all excerpts from his "speech"), had a bad break on Hole 16 at Lake Olmstead on Thursday. His drive hit the basket, and then rolled about 200 feet OB into the lake. He settled for a 5. There was a two-group backup on Hole 17 and a steep hill to walk down to get to the tee. On a manhole cover adjacent to the trail, a stone cairn was erected, presumably by people hiking to 17's teepad. Brad took several vicious kicks to destory the cairn, and then proceeded to cuss at everyone who pointed out his behaviour, spreading FUs for all. He called one golfer a "#$*&amp;$!" and threatened to kick him in the b#lls. It was a shameful display of immaturity.

Discussions ensued immediately with Brian Graham, and a "formal" discussion was held after the round. Brad claimed that he "stumbled" into the rocks and "accidentally" knocked them over. Along with about 20 others, I saw what really happened (no stumbling). A one stroke penalty could have been @#$%&amp;, but consider this: On Wednesday, an open division player landed behind the cairn and was forced to throw around it, thus making this cairn an obstacle and part of the course. Willful destruction of the course is grounds for immediate DQ.



Well I guess that makes it a temper tantrum at two consecutive Pro Worlds now. You can read about Brad Hammock's outburst at last year's event in Dan Cordle's post on 09/07/05 at 12:43 PM on the following thread: What happened to Brad Hammock? (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Players&amp;Number=437367&amp;Searchpag e=0&amp;Main=437245&amp;Search=true&amp;#65533;Post437367)

WOW...I find all of this very hard to believe....I met Brad years ago and he was nothing like earlier described....he was a true gentleman and took the time to give a NooB like myself some tips...and yes this was at a World's.... :confused:

Poor Brad...I think the heat musta been gettin' to him...Anywho....I still think he is a great guy.... ;)

Taken from the SNDG message board from a player who was in Brad's group..

Brad, the self-proclaimed "Georgia Birdie Machine", fellow Capricorn to Tiger, the one who plays well when Tiger plays well (all excerpts from his "speech"), had a bad break on Hole 16 at Lake Olmstead on Thursday. His drive hit the basket, and then rolled about 200 feet OB into the lake. He settled for a 5. There was a two-group backup on Hole 17 and a steep hill to walk down to get to the tee. On a manhole cover adjacent to the trail, a stone cairn was erected, presumably by people hiking to 17's teepad. Brad took several vicious kicks to destory the cairn, and then proceeded to cuss at everyone who pointed out his behaviour, spreading FUs for all. He called one golfer a "#$*&$!" and threatened to kick him in the b#lls. It was a shameful display of immaturity.

Discussions ensued immediately with Brian Graham, and a "formal" discussion was held after the round. Brad claimed that he "stumbled" into the rocks and "accidentally" knocked them over. Along with about 20 others, I saw what really happened (no stumbling). A one stroke penalty could have been @#$%&, but consider this: On Wednesday, an open division player landed behind the cairn and was forced to throw around it, thus making this cairn an obstacle and part of the course. Willful destruction of the course is grounds for immediate DQ.

Brad was warned that his next outbreak would get him booted, and I played several subsequent rounds with the "nice" Brad, whose only negative comment was to ask me to "Not ask him stupid questions on the teepad", his response to my efforts to be friendly. It shows that Brad can act acceptably, and does not have to be a jerk. He is a great player, but has terrible sportsmanship. He did not even thank his sponsor during his speech. In Brad's own words, "Winning all the time is bittersweet". I personally would rather finish last, with pride, than first with none.

Just think... Brad won by 1 stroke!! What would of happened if he had benn penalized for his actions??



Does the PDGA have the NASCAR disease, meaning that "name" players are subjected to an "alternate" set of rules that that of the rest of the field. Shame on them if this is so, but I always thought intentional destruction of the course and blatent courtesty violations (cussing the players on his card) were the "golden-rules" of golf so-to-speak.

Brad is a nice guy when he is not playing / winning and even more when he's not playing and winning.

I've heard many many many bad things about him on the course - I know one guy around here said he would never play masters ever again if Brad was in the tournament and I know for a fact that Brad snuck into a park one night and cut down a tree on the course.

He did get a "tournament warning" which meant one more incident the rest of the event and he would be DQ'd.

Did you hold the tree up so he could get a could cuTT on it?

Well I guess that makes it a temper tantrum at two consecutive Pro Worlds now. You can read about Brad Hammock's outburst at last year's event in Dan Cordle's post on 09/07/05 at 12:43 PM on the following thread: What happened to Brad Hammock? (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Players&Number=437367&Searchpage=0&Main=437245&Search=true�Post437367)

hadnt read this in awhile, entertaining... my respect for discpimp continually grows when i read statements he makes like this
I could really care less whos cheating and whos not cheating in the Open division as I dont play in that division yet ...

all sarcasm aside and in all seriousness, this is a great quote about professionalism & sportsmanship by chris heeren
I have never thrown my bag or chair down when I have had a bad shot. I think that this horrible sportsmanship and it really shouldn't be allowed. Just because you and Brad have both done it doesn't mean EVERYONE has. Not only does it cause a scene but it also makes the other players in the group a little more uncomfortable, I don't think it's fair for one person that is having a bad round to take down the other players game as well. I also believe it should matter more to the top pro's since that is who most of the spectators are watching, they shouldn't have to witness that at a top pro level.

Taken from the SNDG message board from a player who was in Brad's group..

Brad, the self-proclaimed "Georgia Birdie Machine", fellow Capricorn to Tiger, the one who plays well when Tiger plays well (all excerpts from his "speech"), had a bad break on Hole 16 at Lake Olmstead on Thursday. His drive hit the basket, and then rolled about 200 feet OB into the lake. He settled for a 5. There was a two-group backup on Hole 17 and a steep hill to walk down to get to the tee. On a manhole cover adjacent to the trail, a stone cairn was erected, presumably by people hiking to 17's teepad. Brad took several vicious kicks to destory the cairn, and then proceeded to cuss at everyone who pointed out his behaviour, spreading FUs for all. He called one golfer a "#$*&$!" and threatened to kick him in the b#lls. It was a shameful display of immaturity.

Discussions ensued immediately with Brian Graham, and a "formal" discussion was held after the round. Brad claimed that he "stumbled" into the rocks and "accidentally" knocked them over. Along with about 20 others, I saw what really happened (no stumbling). A one stroke penalty could have been @#$%&, but consider this: On Wednesday, an open division player landed behind the cairn and was forced to throw around it, thus making this cairn an obstacle and part of the course. Willful destruction of the course is grounds for immediate DQ.

Brad was warned that his next outbreak would get him booted, and I played several subsequent rounds with the "nice" Brad, whose only negative comment was to ask me to "Not ask him stupid questions on the teepad", his response to my efforts to be friendly. It shows that Brad can act acceptably, and does not have to be a jerk. He is a great player, but has terrible sportsmanship. He did not even thank his sponsor during his speech. In Brad's own words, "Winning all the time is bittersweet". I personally would rather finish last, with pride, than first with none.

Just think... Brad won by 1 stroke!! What would of happened if he had benn penalized for his actions??



Before Brad:

http://www.shippw.homestead.com/files/Cairn.JPG

After Brad:

http://www.bahiker.com/pictures/northbay/annadel/103100/small/057rocks.jpg

and he accidently knocked that over...........

Unlike NASCAR, disc golf is a self officiating sport and the players must be willing to step up and make the tough calls at the time that they happen. His group did issue him a courtesy violation and the issue was turned over to the Marshals but not until after the round. Brad was warned by the Marshals that another outburst of any kind would result in an immediate disqualification. One of the players in the group pleaded the 5th and did not want to be involved. The other two wanted him penalized and/or booted from the tournament. Brad does have a reputation that preceeds him but a players prior history can not be used as the basis for penalizing him the first time he acts discourteously in a tournament. Players need to realize this and issue a warning or file a complaint the first time someone acts up so that if it happens again, the Marshals have the power to act.

<font color="red"> </font> This is a PM sent to me by King Putt <font color="red"> </font>


It's interesting to hear people talk about McCray as a true professional and a nice guy. I was following the lead group group around for the better part of friday and saturday and all I heard was #$*&$! and complaining. Granted he probably wasn't at his best demenor after missing those two holes that morning. Three separate incidents soured my view 1) McCray threw OB at Lake Olmstead #17. He took his drive from where it was last inbounds. Kenny had a drive which was near where McCray's disc was out. Kenny went and picked up McCray out of bounds disc and handed it to him near the basket. McCray went into a long rant off to side about Kenny shouldn't have picked up his OB disc he wasn't that far out of bounds! What!? I replied that Kenny was just being a god guy and saving him the walk. McCray then said "He shouldn't be touching my disc regardless". 2) McCray also ranted about the amount of time Nate was taking when Nate went to check if the fairway was clear 3) Shoot! I can't think of what the last one was...

Regardless, most of the spectators who followed him around will disagree with your view...



So who else feels this way?

Brian times 2.........

thanks for sharing the info on the thought process that went into the payout determination. hopefully this information is valuable for everyone that is curious about the process.

just to set the record straight in case anyone was offended by my post: i wasn't privy to the payout determination process and had no criticism of it before i knew the process or as i understand it now. i had no personal problem with how the money for a given division was divied up, again having no inside information about the thought processes involved.

i was only passing along an observation about the level of added cash that we've been able to generate for our sport. i'll always be doing what i can do in my own little corner of the universe to help the sport grow. i've got some interesting projects underway that may help up the ante for future events....

I will say that over the course of the last 7 years I have been playing on tour, the PDGA is notorious for NOT punishing bad behavior. Short of the ONE exception where they made an example out of Cam Todd. I have witnessed some pretty crappy and even downright embarassing behavior at numerous big events. Almost all of which went unpunished. Now I realize we are supposed to be a self officiating sport. However if the Big Time sponsorship is to ever come about, we (the PDGA) have to be able to police our players better and show some control of the situation. Otherwise the prospect of BIG purses in the future is just as bleak as it was 10 years ago. Why would Gatorade want to throw a huge chunk of cash at an organization that cannot even control is own competitors? Just my .02

If he threatened a player with kicking...that's grounds for disqualification and suspension. I hope that was hyperbole on the posters side. I tolerate a lot of poor behavior on the course, but threats are right out.

The PDGA Marsalls at the Am worlds didn't have any problems handing out strokes. They were giving them away like food samples at Sams. ;)

Dan,

I didn't take your post as being negative. I'm a proponent of full disclosure when it comes to tournament finances and am happy to share this information with anyone who has a concern.

I am just a bit befuddled by some of the posts (most by people who were not even at the event). We stepped up at the last minute to host the 2nd richest Pro Worlds in the history of the event. The payout of the Open Womens division was only $115 less than the most in history with less players, and people are posting as if we somehow came up short. :confused:

Its no wonder why nobody bid on the 2006 Worlds. As the host, its an almost no win situation. :(

Given the circumstances, I am very proud of what we accomplished.

Brian,

As we learned last year in PA, hosting a Worlds is the most thankless job in DG. From afar I think you did an incredible job with such a limited timeline. Hope to see you at USDGC! :D

I feel the reason the payouts seem low (which they were not) was b/c of the limits placed on the field size.

You guys did an awesome job. People that weren't there didn't see things like the diver hired to get discs out of the lake or the water being filled up at Hippodrome during practice rounds, much less during the tournament.

Yeah, I thought the event was very well run!
I had a blast!
Great atmosphere, great activities and players pack and everything!
Thanks BG and all of Augusta for doing such a sweet job with this event!!
I liked the unique things that were done like putting a huge scoreport up by hole 7 at Lake O to keep the players informed on how the leaders were doing. As well as taking groups pictures by hole 18's scoreport during round 1, then giving us the picture ... that was a great idea.
Can't wait to play those courses again!

The payout stunk big time, I will not be a PDGA member again. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:I'm done with this thread.

sounds like the event went well and the top players in our sport still get cartered too and not punished for bad behaviour . :confused:

based on what I heard from someone who was in the group ahead of Brad, Brad did the following things.

(I'm leaving names out)

1. Kicked the rocks over, which when other players who had rolled down the hill were forced to throw around them, afterwards, they were not an obstalce. This is altering the course. Should have been a two stroke penalty.

2. The rocks came flying down the hill, one of which struck the tee pad of 17 while Player A was throwing. Player B warned Brad. Brad called Player B a #$*&$! and began saying that the call was #$*&$!.

3. When this was reported to the TD, the TD asked to speak to the guys affected, one of which did not want to talk to the TD, but was asked to. The other players in the group explained what happend and Brad said that he tripped over the rocks. Player C fromt he group immediatly said he had seen this happen.

This is not good. H should have he been kicked out (esp when the players meeting said things like be good sports we don't want instances that is basically a warning). Worst case scenario, he should have been stroked for altering an obstance on the course.

Isn't it funny that it's always the same people time after time after time.

and what's funnier is nothing ever happens :confused: got to love the consistency of the PDGA

1. Kicked the rocks over, which when other players who had rolled down the hill were forced to throw around them, afterwards, they were not an obstalce. This is altering the course. Should have been a two stroke penalty.





This is not good. H should have he been kicked out (esp when the players meeting said things like be good sports we don't want instances that is basically a warning). Worst case scenario, he should have been stroked for altering an obstance on the course.





According to 804.05 A.(2) there's no two stroke penalty for for willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.

There's either disqualification or an official warning of disqualification. In this case, the player was given an official warning of disqualification.

Chris, you gotta be fair to the PDGA. My limited understanding of the matter, I mean matters, is that some of the PLAYERS in the group did not feel like taking a stand. I'm sure they had their reasons, but if they are unwilling to take a stand, it is not fair to place the blame on the TDs, or the PDGA.

agree james but this is not the 1st and probably wont be the last time we see or hear about this.

Isolated instances occur. Everyone makes mistakes here and there. I know I've done innapropriate things before as I know everyone has.

However, Brad has a history. But on the other hand, I totally agree with what Brian posted that you can't use history as a judge.

After reading the rules, I agree that a warning in this case was the best scenario and think that this was handled as best it could be.

It all goes back to what Kenny said in his speech.

"I Want to thank the open players for thier sportsmanship. I really think it has improved over the years. I guess all the bad sports moved up to masters"

This is just sick and has to be put to an end if disc golf is to be taken seriously by the public at large.

I'm not one to cut much slack when it comes to this kind of outburst. It would have been a very loud and clear message to all if Brad had been DQ'd and sent home.

Maybe the PDGA has its hands tied in this manner, but I think Brad's sponsor (Innova) should consider dropping him. Why would they want that kind of image from one of their reps??
If Innova makes the right choice and drops him maybe it would teach him a lesson and send a message to all those looking for sponsorship..

Give him penalty strokes after the fact and give Joel 1st place, case closed. :cool:

It all goes back to what Kenny said in his speech.

"I Want to thank the open players for thier sportsmanship. I really think it has improved over the years. I guess all the bad sports moved up to masters"



I started playing in Pro Grand Masters this year -- I can happily say that I have found nothing but good sports in this division -- no drama, just a little whining after a bad shot or break, and plenty of positive support, the way it should be. Maybe we're just happy we can still get out there and fling a disc.

From my perspective players who behave badly do so on purpose to affect the mental game of the others on the card. I witnessed this at Texas States one year, with the arse hole winning and the gentleman losing. Granted I rarely play with players as talented as june bug, but I know it affects me when it occurs on my card and I'm sure it affects 1000 rated players too. Maybe JK would have won by 5 or 6 had this distraction not occurred.

We need to strengthen this rule. One needless outburst, a warning, two and you go home.

Yes Brian I agree (by the way what's up!). SOmething else that was funny to me is that I went to the Innova site and looked up Brad's profile or whatever you want to call it. Well, they have a section on advice that each sponsored player gives and ironically his said "Be courteous to fellow players". Maybe he should read that over again.

1. Kicked the rocks over, which when other players who had rolled down the hill were forced to throw around them, afterwards, they were not an obstalce. This is altering the course. Should have been a two stroke penalty.





This is not good. H should have he been kicked out (esp when the players meeting said things like be good sports we don't want instances that is basically a warning). Worst case scenario, he should have been stroked for altering an obstance on the course.





According to 804.05 A.(2) there's no two stroke penalty for for willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.

There's either disqualification or an official warning of disqualification. In this case, the player was given an official warning of disqualification.



The marshalls there should have manned-up and DQ'ed the guy then and there.

One of the players in the group pleaded the 5th and did not want to be involved. The other two wanted him penalized and/or booted from the tournament.



This should have been enough for a DQ IMO.

I was not there, I am not a professional disc golfer, and I do not know Brad Hammock from Adam, but it angers me that he acted this way and is still going to be recognized as a "World Champion".

Hey Milty!

I know this is slightly off topic, but when is Pro Worlds going to be just the Open division?

There should be one Pro Worlds for Open, and a Masters Championship for age protected divisions. If the same person wins both, kudos to them!

I don't remember seeing the PGA Seniors playing in an age protected division at the PGA championships, British Open, etc. but I do remember seeing Seniors compete with the rest of them in OPEN.

I was not there, I am not a professional disc golfer, and I do not know Brad Hammock from Adam, but it angers me that he acted this way and is still going to be recognized as a "World Champion".



another reason why the pdga... well, i better not say. lord knows im not a sponsored world champ and wont get the lineage that brad got.

what a shame.. surprising to me cause joel is usually the first voice his opinion on rule breakers.

i bet if it had been Kevin, Rico or Cam they would have been stroked at least...or worse.

I thought some of the stuff in Brad's Innova profile were kinda funny... "Be courteous to fellow players"..."Temper aggression with common sense." Lol!

Hey Milty!

I know this is slightly off topic, but when is Pro Worlds going to be just the Open division?

There should be one Pro Worlds for Open, and a Masters Championship for age protected divisions. If the same person wins both, kudos to them!

I don't remember seeing the PGA Seniors playing in an age protected division at the PGA championships, British Open, etc. but I do remember seeing Seniors compete with the rest of them in OPEN.



they have a senior tour including a senior british open and PGA championships.

I thought some of the stuff in Brad's Innova profile were kinda funny... "Be courteous to fellow players"..."Temper aggression with common sense." Lol!



Perhaps it was sarcasm.

Hey Milty!

I know this is slightly off topic, but when is Pro Worlds going to be just the Open division?

There should be one Pro Worlds for Open, and a Masters Championship for age protected divisions.



That would be one more event that someone would have to run. I imagine the PDGA pretty much loves the combined Worlds like you saw in Des Moines and Michigan before. It's a larger event, but it's one fewer trip and one fewer group of TD's to deal with.

This player has a long long history of this. I hate to say this but I wish Innova would just drop him completely. He does not represent the company in a positive light at all. The PDGA should tell him one more outburst like this will result in a very stiff suspension.

I hate to push anyone away from the game but something has to happen.

From my perspective players who behave badly do so on purpose to affect the mental game of the others on the card.



This is even more egregious than doing it just because you're angry. The appropriate response is a DQ.

He does not represent the company in a positive light at all.


I disagree. Sure, he did not represent Innova well when he may (or may not) have kicked the rocks over on purpose. But I have met him several times, and he is a really nice guy. He lives to tell stories and make people laugh, entertain them. You can ask him all the advice you want, he will focus on the problem/solution. I agree that he needs to control himself more, but off the course, he is a great guy.

Sounds like a lot of whiners here. Now you want Mr. Hammock kicked off Innova??? Dave D was at the Worlds, I'm sure he knows exactly what happened. So go on about your own business. Don't you guys have better things to do, like worrying about your own golf game?

Sounds like some incidents happened, and they were dealt with. I'm sure you can find some bad behavior at any PDGA event, and perhaps Mr. Hammock needs to focus on this part of the game more in the future. But publicly ripping apart one of the greatest players in the game is not good for anyone.

Give it a rest, it's over.

-E

they are not talking about how he acts off the course its on the course.
Ive met him once off the course at senneca one year he was a good guy signed a disc for me played bumper pool and all sorts of different games had a good time.But I dont know him
on the course
I would like to hear what he has to say about this....

Brad is a jerkoff...he should be kicked off Innova for good.

Anybody remember the BH incident regarding Yeti's parents? I'm suprised Yeti did not break him in half.

I agree about Brad off the course. I remember when I was an am and was trying to learn the little anny flick approach shot. I was practicing between rounds on this at the practice basket while the Dogwood Crosstown Supertour was going on. He came over to me and helped me for like 5 min. He could have used that time to warm up or practice, but he didn't. I'll never forget that. Of course, I have also been putting and had Cam walk up and give me a few pointers.

It doesn't matter who he is or what he does, this behaivor is innapropriate. If we start saying that behaivor by certain players is acceptable b/c they've won this or they are rated this, then where does that take us? Is it ok for him to act like this b/c he is a 4 time world champion? Is it ok for me to cuz I'm not?

Brad is a jerkoff...he should be kicked off Innova for good.

Anybody remember the BH incident regarding Yeti's parents? I'm suprised Yeti did not break him in half.


no i dont

I played random dubs with Brad one time great guy during that round helped me with my game a lot.That does not excuse his actions on the course
But the two stories we are discussing here are just two of many.

I have seen him do other things at many other tournaments.
I believe Innova has suspeneded him before because of his actions on the course.

Brad has a anger problem, I hope he can learn to control it, cause he can play some great golf

The REAL issue is (and I have seen this at many events): Why are people not willing to "man up" and warn players early or back up others that do??


anything that unfairly distracts me takes the reasonable expectation of fair play away from my tournament experience. Having to be the "bad guy" is also an additional pressure that I don't need. Having people refuse to back up a warning is even more ridiculous.

Brad has a anger problem, I hope he can learn to control it, cause he can play some great golf



He'd fit right in with Discrafts world champions... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The REAL issue is (and I have seen this at many events): Why are people not willing to "man up" and warn players early or back up others that do??


anything that unfairly distracts me takes the reasonable expectation of fair play away from my tournament experience. Having to be the "bad guy" is also an additional pressure that I don't need. Having people refuse to back up a warning is even more ridiculous.



tru dat

Brad has a anger problem, I hope he can learn to control it, cause he can play some great golf



He'd fit right in with Discrafts world champions... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Not Doss... :D

Brad has a anger problem, I hope he can learn to control it, cause he can play some great golf



He'd fit right in with Discrafts world champions... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Howdy!!!

Yo EOG, way to cash at worlds man!!!!

Seeker you are exactly right. There have been many things this year that have happened that could have been taken care of if we would just police ourselves better.

Some players are just scared to get involved or dont want to hurt someones feelings. If you are my friend I want you to tell me if I do something wrong.

The REAL issue is (and I have seen this at many events): Why are people not willing to "man up" and warn players early or back up others that do??


anything that unfairly distracts me takes the reasonable expectation of fair play away from my tournament experience. Having to be the "bad guy" is also an additional pressure that I don't need. Having people refuse to back up a warning is even more ridiculous.



tru dat



I agree. People are afraid to call others out, or you get the "homeboy treatments" where their heads are so far up each others $#$%# that they'd never say anything against each other. I got burnt by three "butties" that way.

Brad has a anger problem, I hope he can learn to control it, cause he can play some great golf



He'd fit right in with Discrafts world champions... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Are you saying Nate has an anger problem :eek:

Hey Milty!

I know this is slightly off topic, but when is Pro Worlds going to be just the Open division?

There should be one Pro Worlds for Open, and a Masters Championship for age protected divisions. If the same person wins both, kudos to them!

I don't remember seeing the PGA Seniors playing in an age protected division at the PGA championships, British Open, etc. but I do remember seeing Seniors compete with the rest of them in OPEN.



I'M WITH BRIAN ON THIS ONE
ITS NICE TO SEE ALL THE BEST PLAYERS PLAY IN ONE DIVISION AT THE USDGC EVERY YEAR IT WOULD BE DOUBLY NICE IF THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE OTHER MAJOR CHAMPONSHIP THAT HAD ONLY ONE DIVISION.

HOWEVER I DID ENJOY FOLLOWING WHAT HAPPEND WITH ALL OF THE DIVISIONS THROUGHOUT THE WEEK

Hey Milty!

I know this is slightly off topic, but when is Pro Worlds going to be just the Open division?

There should be one Pro Worlds for Open, and a Masters Championship for age protected divisions. If the same person wins both, kudos to them!

I don't remember seeing the PGA Seniors playing in an age protected division at the PGA championships, British Open, etc. but I do remember seeing Seniors compete with the rest of them in OPEN.



I'M WITH BRIAN ON THIS ONE
ITS NICE TO SEE ALL THE BEST PLAYERS PLAY IN ONE DIVISION AT THE USDGC EVERY YEAR IT WOULD BE DOUBLY NICE IF THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE OTHER MAJOR CHAMPONSHIP THAT HAD ONLY ONE DIVISION.

HOWEVER I DID ENJOY FOLLOWING WHAT HAPPEND WITH ALL OF THE DIVISIONS THROUGHOUT THE WEEK



The do have another, it's called the Player's Cup. :D

""I Want to thank the open players for thier sportsmanship. I really think it has improved over the years. I guess all the bad sports moved up to masters"

Maybe I should talk with Kenny.

IT WOULD BE DOUBLY NICE IF THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE OTHER MAJOR CHAMPONSHIP THAT HAD ONLY ONE DIVISION.


There is, the Player's Cup is going to be a major this year. There is only one division offered.

So ..........What really happened ?

""I Want to thank the open players for thier sportsmanship. I really think it has improved over the years. I guess all the bad sports moved up to masters"

Maybe I should talk with Kenny.



Kenny is truly the man!

I'M WITH BRIAN ON THIS ONE
ITS NICE TO SEE ALL THE BEST PLAYERS PLAY IN ONE DIVISION AT THE USDGC EVERY YEAR IT WOULD BE DOUBLY NICE IF THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE OTHER MAJOR CHAMPONSHIP THAT HAD ONLY ONE DIVISION.

HOWEVER I DID ENJOY FOLLOWING WHAT HAPPEND WITH ALL OF THE DIVISIONS THROUGHOUT THE WEEK



Hey Barkley, ever seen this on your keyboard? :D

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/thelung-Caps_Lock.jpg

I have met him while he was walking around and he seemed to be pretty cool to me.
I have not played any Disc Golf rounds with him.
I have seen him play and for a little guy , he has alot of power and accuracy.
He is a Multiple World Champion. He is a Sponsored player.

So , what really happened ? Did someone tick him off ?
Did he distract other players and/or other groups ? Did he throw something in anger ? Did he swear or yell ? Did he tell off a Official ? Is there going to be any corrective action or fines ?

Something just doesn't seem right here.

Maybe the PDGA coddles Brad because he's a little guy?

Is that why the wifey coddles you..."little guy" :o

You mean Favoritism ? :eek:

Is that why the wifey coddles you..."little guy" :o



Yeah compared to you I'm a little guy. :o

Only /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif from the waist down

Compared to Cam, I'm a litle guy. :o

Only /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif from the waist down



I would not expect anything less from a guy with 8 kids :D

That's what she said :eek:

i'm lazy

just like that mitch hedberg joke
this shirt is dry clean only which means its dirrrty
plus i havent written in all caps in like a month it was a lot of fun
or maybe i was just holdin the shift key the whole time so i could make the typing extra challenging
the players cup sweet end communication.

But Cam your waist is from your neck to your feet. ;)

Hey Milty!

I know this is slightly off topic, but when is Pro Worlds going to be just the Open division?

There should be one Pro Worlds for Open, and a Masters Championship for age protected divisions.



That would be one more event that someone would have to run.


It already exists and it is already being run, and it is a PDGA major.

That would be the "U.S. Masters Championships" that will be happening in about a month at La Mirada, CA. Am and Pro divisions offered, but only for old folks.

http://www.usmastersdiscgolf.com

But Cam your waist is from your neck to your feet. ;)



LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

So , what really happened ? Did someone tick him off ?
Did he distract other players and/or other groups ? Did he throw something in anger ? Did he swear or yell ? Did he tell off a Official ? Is there going to be any corrective action or fines ?

Something just doesn't seem right here.



A previous post of mine - hit the basket on a putt for 2 on 16 and it rolled all the way down this super steep hill and went into the water, thus taking a 5. This was his reaction.

based on what I heard from someone who was in the group ahead of Brad, Brad did the following things.

(I'm leaving names out)

1. Kicked the rocks over, which when other players who had rolled down the hill were forced to throw around them, afterwards, they were not an obstalce. This is altering the course. Should have been a two stroke penalty.

2. The rocks came flying down the hill, one of which struck the tee pad of 17 while Player A was throwing. Player B warned Brad. Brad called Player B a #$*&$! and began saying that the call was #$*&$!.

3. When this was reported to the TD, the TD asked to speak to the guys affected, one of which did not want to talk to the TD, but was asked to. The other players in the group explained what happend and Brad said that he tripped over the rocks. Player C fromt he group immediatly said he had seen this happen.

This is not good. H should have he been kicked out (esp when the players meeting said things like be good sports we don't want instances that is basically a warning). Worst case scenario, he should have been stroked for altering an obstance on the course.

Isn't it funny that it's always the same people time after time after time.

But Cam your waist is from your neck to your feet. ;)



That means alot coming from Kenny Rogers.

MTL: How big are these rocks Brad kicked?

Barkley, that post was hilarious where did it go?

page 88

MTL: How big are these rocks Brad kicked?



to be honest, I never even saw those rocks. I saw the manhole they were on, but I threw a really good drive on this hole both rounds, so the rocks were never an issue for me.

page 88



Bay Area Hiker .. San Francisco... Pictures were probably 2800 ++ miles from Augusta.

Nothing in those pictures resembles the SE United States, and the second had very different sky, terrain, ....

Barkley, that post was hilarious where did it go?


That was freakin hilarious! I wonder how many people thought he really kicked that whole monument over. :D:D:D

MTL: How big are these rocks Brad kicked?



The rocks were not too big and flat. Probably about the size of your hand at best. They were stacked one on top of another like an art piece on top of a raised man hole. If you have been to the Grange in VA you will know what I'm talking about. A certain masters player I know that played the hole before Brad that day had to straddle putt around the rocks, so they def came into play.

Thanks Eddie...can't believe BH got away with that? I guess being one of the best has it's priviledges.

I hate it when I actually have to post about a disciplinary matter but there is a lot of misinformation going on concerning Brad H.

First, I know what Brad's reputation is, although I don't know Brad. Second, as Brian pointed out, the PDGA acts when and if it can/should, that is, within the rules structure. No matter what we might think, there must be grounds and testimony on which to act before anything can be done. Remember, the PDGA has to act within the bounds of its rules, but it has to also protect all it's members, even those that may act in a repugnant fashion.

Although I have not talked with those who either witnessed or took testimony on the incident at Worlds, the posts here indicate that the incident was dealt with according to the PDGA's rules. Brad wasn't excused or given a pass he was warned and dealt with according to our rules.

Some might not like Brad, they might think he is bad for the sport, but the PDGA doesn't have the luxury of judging or punishing players simply because they are boorish or because another player feels that player should be punished. The PGDA has to act on concrete information. Even if a player kicks over a pile of rocks, someone has to step up to the plate with concrete testimony as to what happened. Without that, Brad stumbled over a pile of rocks.

Let me be clear about one thing, if there is anyone posting here that believes differently, that is willing to make a concrete statement in a real interview, and that is not simply posting gossip on the PDGA Mess Board, then they need to contact the PDGA.

Finally, the notion that the PDGA gives any Pro player, or any other player a pass is based on not looking at past actions taken by the PDGA. If Brad chose to tell you himself, he might have said that he knows that others besides Cam have been punished/warned, including himself...


Lyle O. Ross
PDGA Disciplinary Chair

p.s. If you think any player is doing harm to the sport, then read our Constitution, specifically Article X of the old Constitution (this will be included in the new Disciplinary Procedure that will be published soon, so it is still relevant).

BTW - one other note, hindsight in a situation like this is always 20/20. On the ground at the tournament, TDs and Marshals have to act to the best of their ability under strenuous conditions. Even other players have to act and think about what they are going to say under the same conditions. If anyone expects a perfect result under those conditions they are foolin' no one but themselves.

No offense Lyle, but you guys really don't do much when it comes to discipline. I brought a very serious incident to the PDGA and you last year and nothing was done about it. Not a thing. I know for a fact that nothing was discussed at any board meeting or anything.

If we want things to stop, then you, as the chair of the discipline committee, has got to start handling things like this incident at worlds and the one involving me last April.

Just my 2 cents.

http://daverattigan.typepad.com/the_grace_pages/images/doh.gif

Taken from the SNDG message board from a player who was in Brad's group..

Brad, the self-proclaimed "Georgia Birdie Machine", fellow Capricorn to Tiger, the one who plays well when Tiger plays well (all excerpts from his "speech"), had a bad break on Hole 16 at Lake Olmstead on Thursday. His drive hit the basket, and then rolled about 200 feet OB into the lake. He settled for a 5. There was a two-group backup on Hole 17 and a steep hill to walk down to get to the tee. On a manhole cover adjacent to the trail, a stone cairn was erected, presumably by people hiking to 17's teepad. Brad took several vicious kicks to destory the cairn, and then proceeded to cuss at everyone who pointed out his behaviour, spreading FUs for all. He called one golfer a "#$*&amp;$!" and threatened to kick him in the b#lls. It was a shameful display of immaturity.

Discussions ensued immediately with Brian Graham, and a "formal" discussion was held after the round. Brad claimed that he "stumbled" into the rocks and "accidentally" knocked them over. Along with about 20 others, I saw what really happened (no stumbling). A one stroke penalty could have been @#$%&amp;, but consider this: On Wednesday, an open division player landed behind the cairn and was forced to throw around it, thus making this cairn an obstacle and part of the course. Willful destruction of the course is grounds for immediate DQ.

Brad was warned that his next outbreak would get him booted, and I played several subsequent rounds with the "nice" Brad, whose only negative comment was to ask me to "Not ask him stupid questions on the teepad", his response to my efforts to be friendly. It shows that Brad can act acceptably, and does not have to be a jerk. He is a great player, but has terrible sportsmanship. He did not even thank his sponsor during his speech. In Brad's own words, "Winning all the time is bittersweet". I personally would rather finish last, with pride, than first with none.

Just think... Brad won by 1 stroke!! What would of happened if he had benn penalized for his actions??



Before Brad:

http://www.shippw.homestead.com/files/Cairn.JPG

After Brad:

http://www.bahiker.com/pictures/northbay/annadel/103100/small/057rocks.jpg




I'm sorry if the pictures that i posted offended anyone. Just felt like i had to contribute to the roast. :) Brad is a really nice guy most of the time. He can be a thorn in your side at times though. He should just make sure to choose the right time to be a pain, the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS are clearly the wrong time. :p

MTL,

I won't have a long discussion with you on this topic here. But what I will say is that simply because you don't like the outcome of an issue, doesn't mean that the issue wasn't dealt with. This happens to me all the time. Just last week I felt dern shure that I should have one the state lottery and doggon it, I didn't.

If you're saying that you didn't get my reply as to the resolution of the matter then I will send you a PM. If I forgot to reply to you then shame on me. Let me know.

For general consumption, no issue that comes to me gets ignored. However, any issue that should be handled within the normal rules structure that is present in our rules book should be handled using the rules. The job of the DC is to handle extraordinary circumstances.

Lyle O. Ross
PDGA Disciplinary Chair

p.s. ..... new Disciplinary Procedure that will be published soon, ..........



Hopefully this new Procedure & guidelines will make decision parameters and results more clear cut.

lol - hysterical pic's

I was sent a PM by you that said you had never recieved a complaint even though I had sent it to the PDGA. I sent you the complaint and never heard a word from you back. To this day, the most embarassing, unprofessional thing ever done to me in my career has not be resolved.

I never understood why people freak out when a score card is missadded, but when someone removes his pants and exposes himself to me during sanctioned play, I feel like it is completely ignored.

And that is why John is called " My Hero "
Hilarious pics!

but when someone removes his pants and exposes himself to me during sanctioned play, I feel like it is completely ignored.



Whoa!!!! You have got to be kidding?

Now that is a tasteless thing to do...

The job of the DC is to handle extraordinary circumstances.



So a guy who did what I referenced above was not considered extraordinary? What is then?

I mean, I;ve gotten over it. The person who did this moved and I don't see him anymore. I just wanted to know why nothing was done about it.

but when someone removes his pants and exposes himself to me during sanctioned play, I feel like it is completely ignored.



Whoa!!!! You have got to be kidding?

Now that is a tasteless thing to do...



sadly not kidding. On a college campus course where the college hates disc golf anyway, during a round, simply b/c I had asked the player to move out of my vision in a previous round.

I'm glad this wasn't considered estraoridinary though.

Yeah, exposing yourself in public is not against the law or anything :confused:

What a joke.

I bet a driver in the wang probably hurts really bad!

it was just the backside, which in NC, is actually legal in public places.

However, still tasteless, but obviously, not extraordinary.

M.C. - Am I to believe that you were not a recipient of a golden shovel for all of your work @ Am Worlds??????

I bet a driver in the wang probably hurts really bad!



A practice throw or would you have to play the lie?

I would have taken the stroke!
Rules are rules.
Would have been worth it too! Call me crazy, but thats just me!

M.C. - Am I to believe that you were not a recipient of a golden shovel for all of your work @ Am Worlds??????



Hah! I guess you can tell I'm a little bitter about it :p

That is the biggest bunch of bull ***** I have ever heard.
Last December you were giving me the inside scoop on Am Worlds 06, and I know how much work you did @ Mohawk.

Keep your head up bro. Everybody down here in Funky Town knows you are the man!!!!!!!!!!

I told you can have mine. :D

That is the biggest bunch of bull ***** I have ever heard.
Last December you were giving me the inside scoop on Am Worlds 06, and I know how much work you did @ Mohawk.

Keep your head up bro. Everybody down here in Funky Town knows you are the man!!!!!!!!!!



Thanks Lee, I love you Funky Town disc golfers! Have you been to PJ's new place yet?

Not yet....... You playing Dolese this weekend?

I told you can have mine. :D



Thanks Thong but I'm gonna have to pass...I'm just glad I barely made the cut :)

I told you can have mine. :D



Thanks Thong but I'm gonna have to pass...I'm just glad I barely made the cut :)



Yeah my truck did all the work. I was just along for the ride. :D

Not yet....... You playing Dolese this weekend?



No man, heading up North to the Glass Blown Open....can't wait to check out the Emporia courses.

You should think about playing Okie Dubs, it's not sanctioned this year and the format is pretty cool.

you CAN'T have mine ;),I think they should still make you one

you CAN'T have mine ;),I think they should still make you one



I am going to make my own and hang it up in my garage! But first I need the top ranked spotter in disc golf to sign it, _THE_.

I'm gonna mount mine on the back of the truck.

You should think about playing Okie Dubs, it's not sanctioned this year and the format is pretty cool.



Landis is begging me to play this year, but I cant. I have too much invested in the JDGF , I cant bail to play Okie Dub's. Next year, fo' sho' , If I am not too broke after Am Worlds 07.

Right on, Milwaukee sounds like a blast!

production meeting commish?

I will be there with a big Texas flag on my back!
Need to figure out what is going to be the cheapest lodging in Milwaukee, so I can have money for all that beer and cheese!

production meeting commish?



Oh yeah! I'm leaving work in about 10 min, I have to sub in for K-Mac again. Game at 630 and 830.

I will be there with a big Texas flag on my back!



Scratch that, I may have relocated to Atlanta by then

no chin music this week.

Man I hope not, I can still feel the soreness on my chin from that ground ball...looks like I'm playing SS again :o

This thread has drifted...any more thoughts on Brad kicking rocks?

Man I hope not, I can still feel the soreness on my chin from that ground ball...looks like I'm playing SS again :o



Easy solution. Catch it.

I would have figured 8 years was enough time to work out your anger issues.... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

This thread has drifted...any more thoughts on Brad kicking rocks?



Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

The PDGA Marsalls at the Am worlds didn't have any problems handing out strokes. They were giving them away like food samples at Sams. ;)



I'm still getting strokes for my behavior at Am Worlds... :D

Enough is enough already....Knock it off...You guys sound worse than Brad and are more of an embarassment, cuz ya just can't let it go...For the love of God...Give it a rest....

I for one would like to hear some of the positives about the World's...Surely more excited things happened (ie. Discgolf) then this nonsense...

Anyone care to share some good stories...How was the players party... :)

It is MTL's fault.

I saw Tim Ellis throw in a shot from 300' for a triple circle 7 on hole 11 at Lake Olmstead. It hit a tree above the basket and fell in through the top. Craziest seven ever.
I hit an ace on hole 14 at Riverview in the semis. 200$$