are they limited availability??

Can someone Please reply to my post on Page 75.. I'm going out golfing soon and don't know what disc to throw.. thank you.

-"I suck" Scott

i have about 6 with zonedriven stamp!! i think that is common for the speckled x-outs!!

The SB are not clear, they are Opaque either red or blue with a very few purple. The X-out is just an X-out regular.

OK.. just wanted to make sure.. becuase it's much domier than my Glow, but i didn't get to purchase the Flagstick or the Tribal so i guess they are more like that one. I guess the Glow is the most stable one again? like the '04 one i have.

-"I suck" Scott

Either the Glow, or the white pearly tourney stamps.

The stamp is "Innova Disc Golf by Hero disc" with a "mold by roc" under that. They are not 2005 specific as they were available before that. Mine says Rancho on the bottom if thats any help. Anyone interested in one?



Are the ROCs that you are talking about having in Japan, the regular ROC mold or are they Classic ROCs that are the smaller daimeter. Classic ROCs are run periodically, but regular molds are run only once a year. Can you put an image up so that we can see one of them?

So i went to my local Course and Tested out my "standard x-out".
OVERSTABLE PIG.
I've never thrown any other CE Rocs before, but that is the Fastest most stable Midrange i've ever thrown.
I was parking the same holes that i usually throw drivers on.

Beautiful disc with some sick Stability.

-"I Suck" Scott

Does this make it an Xout Special Blend and also rarer that it has the ZoneDriven Stamp?

No. All SBs were either red or blue.

All the X-outs I've seen have the ZD stamp. Don't know whether or not that's just a coincidence, but my impression is that ZD-stamped X-outs are not that rare.

Thats not true, they were three purple sb at 180g. Ill try to put a pic up of the japan roc. Im not sure what mold it is, but sure its not the classic roc.

This is my first time posting pics so bear with me. Is it possible to post a pic from my comp or does it have to hosted on a site first?

Right off the computer is good.

How?

It needs to be hosted.

You can send it to me if you need a host.

Allright Ill have you host for me. Till then if anyone wants, I can email a pick. Just pm me.

Here it is. http://www.lsdga.com/images/discus/Beads.jpg

Are you interested in a trade? I have just about anything (sorry no 2001 ghost stamp CE rocs though)

Those look like the spectator rocs that we got from the USDGC, but in 150 class.......cool.

oh yeah, that's sweet...anyone for road trip to japan??

Yeah having rocs available in candy was one of the very cool advantages of disc golf in japan. Now if they would only let me throw my max weight discs Id be stoked. I ordered three usdgc rocs, two red and one blue max weight, but had to send them to a friend, and then have him send here or the shipping would of been sixty bucks. Its gonna be another five weeks once he gets them sent out. Man that sucks to wait that long after hearing how good they fly from everyone else. Cant wait to get them finally.

Do the Japan DG police come after you if you throw higher than 150 class. Not trying to be snide, but really who's gonna stop you during a casual round???

my japan champion roc is different. mine says

Disc Golf Driver JPDGA thats it.

Good one. The main prohibiting factor in throwing over 150 is not in tournaments. I know no one ever checks weights at tournaments, but I dont like to cheat. One could throw during casual rounds, but that would show a lack of respect for the course rules.

how many courses in japan??

loved the japan cfr's inncolor art.

35, use the directory link on the top of the page. Good stuff.

When did you get yours and what color is it?

I do understand what you're saying. It also seems that in Japanese culture respect is always of upmost concern. "When in Rome.." as they say. Have fun and eat some <font color="blue"> </font> toro while you're there.

Re: Japan Rocs???
Hey guys ... get a room. I keep looking at this thread for information and reviews concerning the '05 USDGC Rocs, and this tangent has gone on for two pages. Why don't you start a thread about the 150 Japan Rocs � or whatever your conversation is about?

On the subject ... I've been throwing a 178, SB, O5 USDGC Roc, and I really like this disc. Yeah, it was expensive, but man, what a sweet flight. I dig it. This disc is definately meant to be thrown ... not hung on a wall.

i think the SB's feel alot like the new pro line. that's not a negative thing just an observation. i put my blue PL orc and my blue SB roc side by side and saw very little difference in the plastic.

they're a lot different though, the SB is just regular Champion plastic (a TPU) with an additive to make it more grippy and opaque, where as the Pro Line is a totally different plastic

I think Dave said that the SB plastic was inspired by the nightshift orcs.

pro line is a TPE (thermo plastic elastomer), cheaper to make then champion, a TPU (thermoplastic polyurethane)... you add additives during the molding process to TPUs to change their specific attributes (i.e. durability, feel, etc.), thus the special blend plastic (added 1 additive to aid in grip), just because 2 plastics look or feel the same has nothing to do with their actual makeup, i.e. the special blends are made of a totally different plastic than your Champion/Pro Line mix idea...

further proving my point is the following response from Dave when I inquestioned him about this...

"crdiscgolfer, yes, that's what it is. To be clear: the "special blend" USDGC Roc are the Ontario Roc configuration (it says Rancho), with the regular Champion plastic and one additive, which gives it a little more grip. "

also stated was that Special Blend refers to the disc being Ontario mold, not it being a special plastic, as it is regular old Champion with a coloring agent additive that has intrinsic grip properties

So no, they are not retooled Onatrios or Roc-Ls made out of some crazy Champion/ProLine mix... their slight difference in flight characteristics can be attributed to plastic changes (i.e. Champion) not a retool or new mold like everyone likes to assume a disc with slightly different flight characteristics is and yes, they are just regular old Champion plastic with one single additive to aid in the color/feel (i.e. grip)...

so... the Special Blend is in effect...

a Champion Ontario Roc with a grip additive added :D

Well said.

Well said.



Thank You!

I just get really frustrated sometimes as the PDGA board is always filled with misinformation relating to discs/molds/retools/plastics/etc.

This said, this is where almost all of us get our information on said subjects... People just make a lot of this stuff up or they play "telephone" (game we played when little to show how info. gets messed up when spread from person to person) with the stories and pretty soon you have Teebirds with Leopard bottoms... (when Dave has specifically stated this is totally false and unbased and Innova has never put tops of one discs on the bottoms of another) now that I know a little more about the plastics and injection techniques, I know that this is probably impossible and making all these molds everyone talks about isn't even rational from a financial standpoint... I could go on and on forever about why these suspected mold changes are really due to plastic changes, run differences, profiles of injection, additives, etc. but I gotta go play some disc :D

Seriously... someone posted that there were 8 molds for the Teebird... :confused: come on now... think that one out for a minute from a rational and financial standpoint...

It does have that urban myth quality. It is not far off from the person who went o the tanning booth 20 tims in 4 days and has cancer, or the guy in the bath tub of ice with no kidneys or my personal favorite the Mexican vacation gone awry with the tooth brush placed in a special place unknowlingly to the tourist until he/she developes there film. Thanks for setting things straight.

nope, please feel free to re-read my last post...

pro line is a TPE (thermo plastic elastomer), cheaper to make then champion, a TPU (thermo plastic urethane)... you add additives during the molding process to TPUs to change their specific attributes (i.e. durability, feel, etc.), thus the special blend plastic (added 1 additive to aid in grip), just because 2 plastics look or feel the same has nothing to do with their actual makeup, i.e. the special blends are made of a totally different plastic than your Champion/Pro Line mix idea...

further proving my point is the following response from Dave when I inquestioned him about this...

"crdiscgolfer, yes, that's what it is. To be clear: the "special blend" USDGC Roc are the Ontario Roc configuration (it says Rancho), with the regular Champion plastic and one additive, which gives it a little more grip. "

So no, they are not retooled Onatrios or Roc-Ls made out of some crazy Champion/ProLine mix... their slight difference in flight characteristics can be attributed to plastic changes (i.e. Champion) not a retool or new mold like everyone likes to assume a disc with slightly different flight characteristics is and yes, they are just regular old Champion plastic with one single additive to aid in the feel (i.e. grip)...

so... the Special Blend is in effect...

a Champion Ontario Roc with a grip additive added :D



The last two sentances in my previous post were wrong so I erased them but the first one was not (said by Dave on pg. 216 of the "ask Dave Thread"). I wonder what the "one additive is" and if it was the same thing that the workers mixed to make the "nightshift" orcs?

I have no idea what this additive is... there are hundreds upon hundreds of companies which specialize in solely making plastic additives to change the desired characteristics of a polymer...

There are also many many types of additive which do different things, such as fillers (they use these with discs to get a desired weight), colorants (obviously used), compatibilizers (probably used in blending types of plastics in discs), processing aids, softners (used sometimes to aid in grip), stabilizers, flexicizers, matting agents (used to aid in grip also), slip agents (used to aid in grip) etc.

With this said, I have no idea whatsoever what specific additive/trade name or even family of additive the said additive came from as there are so many different ones of each kind and many kinds of additives are regularly used in thermoplastic polyurethane to change the feel of the surface...

Maybe you could ask Dave if you are really interested in what specific additive and tradename of such additive Innova added to the Champion TPU to make it slightly more grippy...

But if you are someway implying that the additive in question is Pro plastic... we're back to square one... no, it's a TPU additive (as Dave stated), not Pro plastic, just a colorant agent that intrinsically added some grip


Anyways... off to play disc... sorry Rocco I don't know which exact TPU additive they added... :( I'm not an expert on all this plastic nonsense, just know a little...

Like I said before, if you really need to know what additive Innova added to the Champion TPU, you could probably ask Dave and he could find out for you I would think...

I think they put a little Funk in the mix :D

Nice post CR

I am glad that you told us about the SB's, but I still like the comment from the other golfer (lennon). He said to him, the disc feels like the new pro line. What's wrong with that? I liked hearing his point of view. No one can tell him what the disc feels like to him, right? Perhaps this point is of little importance, now that we know the plastic is totally different than the new pro line, but I think it could still feel like that to some people, thus a valid comment. If I like the new pro line plastic, maybe I would want an SB '05 Roc because it "feels" like the new pro line plastic.

I am glad that you told us about the SB's, but I still like the comment from the other golfer (lennon). He said to him, the disc feels like the new pro line. What's wrong with that? I liked hearing his point of view. No one can tell him what the disc feels like to him, right? Perhaps this point is of little importance, now that we know the plastic is totally different than the new pro line, but I think it could still feel like that to some people, thus a valid comment. If I like the new pro line plastic, maybe I would want an SB '05 Roc because it "feels" like the new pro line plastic.



I was not posting in response to lennon, if you look closely, you'll see that it was in response to another post telling us what the plastic was, I actually agree that it feels much like the new Pro plastic. It was in response to a post by Rocco, in which he said that it was a Champion/Pro hybrid plastic, he then edited that part out (maybe thats why you thought I was posting in response to him), I was not invalidating lennons particular opinion about the plastic, I actually have not even read that post, and agree that the two feel much alike... thats why I bought mine!... once again... if only people could look closer before they post about others posts... :D

now back to the discussion on the 05 Rocs!

OK, I found where Dave talks about the SB's being inspired by the night shift Orcs. On page 323,


Have you heard about these 'nightshift' orcs?
Was the creation of these discs sanctioned by you, or do you still discourage this type of thing?

Todd, it was not sanctioned by me, but it led to the "special blend" USDGC Rocs. I discourage what they did because it is confusing with Pro line discs.


Also, from page 235, Dave talks about adding candy plastic to the second run pro to make it more durable. So, while it might not be a pure TPU, it has some TPU in it, which would probably explain why it feels like the SB's.


Second run of Pro Orcs with mix has been done. They should be in the pipeline by now. No plans for the Condor or the Zephyr in the near future. All of the future Pro runs will have added candy.


I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, just point out what Dave did say. Man, it took me a while to find those quotes. That is a huge thread.

OK, I found where Dave talks about the SB's being inspired by the night shift Orcs. On page 323,

"Have you heard about these 'nightshift' orcs?
Was the creation of these discs sanctioned by you, or do you still discourage this type of thing?

Todd, it was not sanctioned by me, but it led to the "special blend" USDGC Rocs. I discourage what they did because it is confusing with Pro line discs."

Also, from page 235, Dave talks about adding candy plastic to the second run pro to make it more durable. So, while it might not be a pure TPU, it has some TPU in it, which would probably explain why it feels like the SB's.

Second run of Pro Orcs with mix has been done. They should be in the pipeline by now. No plans for the Condor or the Zephyr in the near future. All of the future Pro runs will have added candy. "

I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, just point out what Dave did say. Man, it took me a while to find those quotes. That is a huge thread.



Understandable, the statement in question was that the special blends were the same as night shift orcs, which were suppossedly a champion/pro plastic hybrid... still with me?... I was stating that they were a different plastic altogether than a champion/pro hybrid plastic... still?... and that they were simply Champion with an additive added for slightly better grip... okay?

Once again, because you obviously did not read my prior post, I agree that the "night shift" orcs and special blend rocs feel like the newer Pro plastic... that is why I bought one of each!... i am simply refuting someones statement that they are made out of a hybrid mix of Champion and Pro plastic, sorta like the KC/CE hybrid used on some 10x discs... okay?

Maybe you're confused between something feeling like something and it actually being it... sorta like a bowl of spaghetti or peeled grapes feeling like brains or eyeballs to a 10 year old on Haloween...

My DGA Riptide feels like its made out of old early run Champion Edition plastic (CE)... and it's opaque too... so maybe it's CE or this magic "night shift" special blend Champion/Pro mix... right???? Maybe I should sell it as a CE Riptide or Night Shift Riptide made by sneaky DGA employees who snuck over to Innova and ran a special run of Riptides in Champion Edition CE Plastic???

Just because a plastic feels somewhat like another does not unequivocally mean that they are the same plastic!

As far as adding candy (Champion) plastic to the Pro plastic for the newer runs of Pro discs... NOONE was doubting that, as Dave has stated that many a time... in a way, you're actually proving my point... with the new champion/pro mix of Pro plastic... how could the "night shifts" and "special blends" still be special??? if they were this supposed mix of plastic, they would simply be Pro Rocs and Pro Orcs... right?

And bravo on finding those posts about night shift orcs... i looked forever and couldn't find them... **** dial-up! ... I wish he would have gone into further detail about what exactly these "night shift" orcs are made of... I can assume that they too, like the SBs, are simply opaque Champion with an additive that helps grip...

Anyways.. once again... back to the 05 Roc Information

CR,
I think we're on the same page here. I did read your posts, and I think you're right. I was just finding the quotes from Dave so others could read them. At least, here's what I think you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The night shift Orcs and the SB Rocs are Champion plastic (TPU) with a grippy additive but no Pro. The new, improved Pro plastic is a grippy plastic (non-TPU) with Champion mixed in (TPU added) for added durability.

And I know I'm still off thread, but I just wanted you to know I wasn't disagreeing with you. About the Rocs, I've only gotten to throw mine once, but they felt so smooooth I can't wait to get further testing in. Hopefully this weekend/next week I'll have time for a few rounds of Roc only golf.

Exactly!

I think the Pro plastic is a TPE/TPU mix, cause it feels an awful lot like dx (an elastomer) and it doesn't have the memory characteristic that polyurethanes do, nor the durability. I could be wrong and it could be some other kind of plastic though...

As far as the "night shift" orcs go, they are exactly the same as the Special Blends... simply Champion plastic with an opaque coloring agent that intrinsically adds some grip...

Back to the Rocs...
You'll love the Special Blends... I was skeptical about how an Ontario mold would fly in Champion... but its almost identical to my Ontario with about the same amount of glide, which really suprised me as Champion discs are know to be more overstable and have less glide... it's probably my favorite disc I've gotten in a long time and you can put a lot on it and it'll just hold the line forever! :D

People just make a lot of this stuff up or they play "telephone" (game we played when little to show how info. gets messed up when spread from person to person) with the stories and pretty soon you have Teebirds with Leopard bottoms... (when Dave has specifically stated this is totally false and unbased and Innova has never put tops of one discs on the bottoms of another)

The problem is that sometimes the misinformation comes from within Innova itself or from people closely affiliated with Innova. I was told the Teebird top/Leopard bottom explanation directly by two Innova employees and three Team Champion members. Given who the people were that told me this, I would be inclined to believe them, were it not for the fact that the disc designer has stated otherwise. (I have also been told by an employee that Innova does mix tops and bottoms, at least in the design and prototyping stage. Since I do not recall seeing a statement by Davei that this has never occurred, I have no reason at present to doubt the claim.)

People just make a lot of this stuff up or they play "telephone" (game we played when little to show how info. gets messed up when spread from person to person) with the stories and pretty soon you have Teebirds with Leopard bottoms... (when Dave has specifically stated this is totally false and unbased and Innova has never put tops of one discs on the bottoms of another)

The problem is that sometimes the misinformation comes from within Innova itself or from people closely affiliated with Innova. I was told the Teebird top/Leopard bottom explanation directly by two Innova employees and three Team Champion members. Given who the people were that told me this, I would be inclined to believe them, were it not for the fact that the disc designer has stated otherwise. (I have also been told by an employee that Innova does mix tops and bottoms, at least in the design and prototyping stage. Since I do not recall seeing a statement by Davei that this has never occurred, I have no reason at present to doubt the claim.)



Are you blaming others ignorance on the people at Innova and Team Champion members?
You obviuosly agree that the TL is not a Teebird Leopard hybrid disc... and say that you believe that because you were misinformed by people at Innova and Team Champion members... isn't that a rationalization?... couldn't the responsibility for being misinformed lie with yourself? I mean... the Ask Dave D thread is probably there for a reason, right? I used to think Avair-Xs were a seperate mold because so many knowledgable people told me so... I asked Dave... and was totally 100% wrong, they're just big bead driver molds... not the people who told me otherwises fault, my own fault for being ignorant to the truth...
Furthermore,
Once again, reread my post and maybe even read between the lines or use some common sense with what I mean. When I said that "Innova has never put tops of one disc on the bottom of another" is it not obvious that I was talking about a production disc? You even state that this probably only happens in the design satge... Come on... do I really have to spell everything out for you? Why would I be talking about a prototype or design or idea that someone has had... I bet there's thousands of ideas that every company has toyed with when trying to invent new disc design ideas... How could you assume I thought that I or anyone even knows all that? I bet they've thought of a ton of crazy sh it more unbelievable than a Teebird/Leopard combo disc... Fore, I really just think you like picking apart all of my posts and trying to find something worded ifily (not a word, i know) or something that could be misinterperted and make a post about it... are you trying to raise your post count? or what? cause there are probably easier ways to go about doing that? either way, i really do enjoy hearing from you... :D

you might want to watch out....

Felix probably knows a lot more about discs than you do...

Hell I had someone that was sponsered by Innova tell me that one of my discs wasn't a FL when it obviously was.

I also overheard some innova people say that the TL was a Teebird/Leopard bottom and a FL was a Firebird/Leopard bottom.

you might want to watch out....

Felix probably knows a lot more about discs than you do...

Hell I had someone that was sponsered by Innova tell me that one of my discs wasn't a FL when it obviously was.

I also overheard some innova people say that the TL was a Teebird/Leopard bottom and a FL was a Firebird/Leopard bottom.



I do not dobt that he knows more than I do about discs, was that what we were inquestioning? Not questioning someone whos wrong because they probably know more than you about the subject... maybe thats why you thought TLs were Teebird/Leopard mixes for so long and FL's were Firebird/Leopard mixes, are you serious??? watch out? is he going to beat me up about some discs? seriously... all I care is that Dave (who designed the disc) retuted the fact that TLs are Teebird/Leopard combos, doesn't Felix even agree that they aren't? Have you looked at the bottom of your FL lately? It looks nothing like the bottom of a Leopard or TL... also, I'm sorry that you were misinformed by someone from Innova, I bet that happens sometimes... but what's your point? People are wrong sometimes? (Weren't you just telling me not to argue with Felix cause hes always right???) I agree and furthermore, thats my point! Sounds sorta contradictory... don't question Felix, he knows alot about discs, so he couldn't be wrong... but then again... people from Innova (the makers of the disc) misinformed me before... Thanks for the warning though, I'll be sure to watch my back from now on :D

*insert eye roll smiley*

I will repeat what I said earlier. I had Innova Pros say that the TL and the FL had leopard bottoms. I did not learn the real meaning of the TL and the FL until I started to read the boards in the spring of 2003. It is pretty sad when pros don't even know what the discs are. You would expect them to know at least something since they are sponsered by the company afterall.

When I said watch out, it was more of a watch how your phrase things as there are plenty of stupid arguments already on this board we don't need another.

If you do want to start an argument then take it to the rules board where every thread is a big huge argument.

I will repeat what I said earlier. I had Innova Pros say that the TL and the FL had leopard bottoms. I did not learn the real meaning of the TL and the FL until I started to read the boards in the spring of 2003. It is pretty sad when pros don't even know what the discs are. You would expect them to know at least something since they are sponsered by the company afterall.



I know this is what you said Will...

as far as the whole watch your back thing, I knew what you meant there, I am just slightly... maybe more than slightly drunk and taking it that way sounded fun... i was joking... note the grin emoticon at the end? :D

and I agree that it's sad that some pros don't even know what they're talking about, thats the whole point of all of my posts on this thread today, just trying to clear things up with all of the misinformation people provide to others on the board... seriously... someone was trying to say there were more than 8 molds of the Teebird... (there is only 2, which are exactly identical except for the engraving of CA. and CAL., both of which molds Ls can be ran out of)... thats the nonsense I'm tired of hearing... that and other peoples assumptions of what a certain plastic is solely based of what they feel, then they espout this 'newfound knowledge" as the truth... I'm just one of those people that likes having the right information if I'm going to be informed... :D

Yeah I saw the whole 8 Teebird mold thing.

I am slightly ****** off because the DMV is trying to charge me $250 for their stupidity. Plus my students push my tolerance for stupidity pretty close to the edge, and some of the things I read on here send it flying over.

I wonder if I push my teachers tolerance for stupidity to the edge? :D

Anyways... back to the 05 Roc Info.!

Has anyone found the Tribals or Flagstick Rocs to fly any different than the spectator Rocs? I like the spectator Roc (thanks Will!) and am thinking about buying a Tribal or Flagstick as a replacement...

People just make a lot of this stuff up or they play "telephone" (game we played when little to show how info. gets messed up when spread from person to person) with the stories and pretty soon you have Teebirds with Leopard bottoms... (when Dave has specifically stated this is totally false and unbased and Innova has never put tops of one discs on the bottoms of another)

The problem is that sometimes the misinformation comes from within Innova itself or from people closely affiliated with Innova. I was told the Teebird top/Leopard bottom explanation directly by two Innova employees and three Team Champion members. Given who the people were that told me this, I would be inclined to believe them, were it not for the fact that the disc designer has stated otherwise. (I have also been told by an employee that Innova does mix tops and bottoms, at least in the design and prototyping stage. Since I do not recall seeing a statement by Davei that this has never occurred, I have no reason at present to doubt the claim.)



Are you blaming others ignorance on the people at Innova and Team Champion members?

Now here's the interesting thing: you simply assumed that people go around making things up and spread it around instead of going to the source. Well, in this case, I did go to the source, that source being two Innova employees and three Team Champion members, all of whom said "TL" stands for "Teebird top/Leopard bottom."

Now, I am reasonably certain that I am not the only person to ask those particular people what "TL" stood for, and I am also reasonably certain that I am not the only person they told that it stood for Teebird top/Leopard bottom. In light of that, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that those individuals are therefore responsible, at least in part, for perpetuating the misconception that "TL" stands for "teebird top/Leopard bottom."


I mean... the Ask Dave D thread is probably there for a reason, right? I used to think Avair-Xs were a seperate mold because so many knowledgable people told me so... I asked Dave... and was totally 100% wrong, they're just big bead driver molds... not the people who told me otherwises fault, my own fault for being ignorant to the truth.

Two small questions:

1) what percentage of disc golfers do you estimate know of and read the Discussion Board? and 2) before you found out about the Discussion Board and found the Ask Dave thread, what was your primary source of information about discs? Did you call Innova and ask to speak to Dave, or did you ask other disc golfers you thought would be in a position to know the answer?

Belive it or not, a sizeable number of disc golfers do not read the DISCussion Board and, as in most matters, are perfectly content to take at face value information that they receive from what they consider a trustworthy source of information. If Harold Duvall or Jonathan Poole or any of three or four other Innova employees were to tell me that such-and-such was the case, I would have no reason to doubt what I had been told or to pursue the matter further unless and until I received specific contradictory information from a party I consider equally trustworthy and/or better informed.


When I said that "Innova has never put tops of one disc on the bottom of another" is it not obvious that I was talking about a production disc? You even state that this probably only happens in the design satge... Come on... do I really have to spell everything out for you?

Now, heres' the interesting question: if Innova puts together a prototype disc using a Teebird top and a Leopard bottom and that results in a new mole for a production disc called the Glubbdubdrib that is based on a Teebird top and a Leopard bottom, or if Innova were to produce a new mold based on an entirely new top and an existing bottom, would it, or would it not, be correct to say that Innova does mix tops and bottoms? So unless you have specific knowledge that no production disc has ever resulted from mixing an existing top with an existing bottom, you have no basis forthe claim that Innova never mixes tops and bottoms, even for production discs.

Furthermore, as I wrote earlier, I do not recall seeing a statement by Dave that tops and bottoms are never mixed for production discs. They may be; they may not be. At this point in time, I have not seen a post by Dave saying they aren't, and until I do, I have no reason to doubt what I have been told.

I am glad that you told us about the SB's, but I still like the comment from the other golfer (lennon). He said to him, the disc feels like the new pro line. What's wrong with that? I liked hearing his point of view. No one can tell him what the disc feels like to him, right? Perhaps this point is of little importance, now that we know the plastic is totally different than the new pro line, but I think it could still feel like that to some people, thus a valid comment. If I like the new pro line plastic, maybe I would want an SB '05 Roc because it "feels" like the new pro line plastic.



I was not posting in response to lennon, if you look closely, you'll see that it was in response to another post telling us what the plastic was, I actually agree that it feels much like the new Pro plastic. It was in response to a post by Rocco, in which he said that it was a Champion/Pro hybrid plastic, he then edited that part out (maybe thats why you thought I was posting in response to him), I was not invalidating lennons particular opinion about the plastic, I actually have not even read that post, and agree that the two feel much alike... thats why I bought mine!... once again... if only people could look closer before they post about others posts... :D

now back to the discussion on the 05 Rocs!



Well, when you post, you "reply" to a post, and your post was a "reply" to "lennon". What else should I think? Esp. if the other poster edited his remarks... Anyway, I get what you were saying now. If only people could "reply" to the correct posts. :D

You really crack me up Felix... how did you get to be so funny?
Seriously, the wit and humor of your posts rivals that of the mysterious Bixby! Anyways... thank you for doing the usual and reposting parts of my post piece by piece and trying to refute each piece into oblivion. I aplaud your effort, but still, you seem to only be reposting your rationalization for being misinformed.... If you would honestly read my post, even the part you yourself reposted, you would obviously see that I siad "make stuff up or play "telephone" with the story." Here, I'll try the Felix method of refuting unagreeable posts:


Now here's the interesting thing: you simply assumed that people go around making things up and spread it around instead of going to the source. Well, in this case, I did go to the source, that source being two Innova employees and three Team Champion members, all of whom said "TL" stands for "Teebird top/Leopard bottom."



With this said... did you solely read the "make stuff up" part of my post before you lost capacity to read any further? Or did you just get so excited that I was wrong on that part that you couldn't get to the "or" and the majority of that reply? Come on Felix... I even explained the whole telephone game thing so not so hard inferences relating the game to the way the TL misinformation came about could be derived from my post... I guess I should always remeber that on here, I need to explain things so as there is unequivocally no doubt as per what I am trying to convey...

Here it is again to help clear up things...


People just make a lot of this stuff up or they play "telephone" (game we played when little to show how info. gets messed up when spread from person to person) with the stories and pretty soon you have Teebirds with Leopard bottoms... (when Dave has specifically stated this is totally false and unbased and Innova has never put tops of one discs on the bottoms of another)



That is exactly what happened with the whole TL thing. Here, I'll explain further so maybe you won't have to strain yourself trying to make an inference from my reply. ***Insert Easy to Understand Explanation*** When they created the "L" moniker it meant not "less stable" it meant "Leopard-Like" because it was straighter (cited from the Ask Dave thread, today), so you then had a "Leopard-like" Teebird. Still with me? You can only assume that people who were told this (probably the people who misinformed you) probably took this as it being part Leopard, or maybe they didn't and they told others who got it somewhat confused. Either way, "Leopard-Like" turned into "half Leopard" some way down the line.... Just like in the childhood game of "telephone"... imagine that...

As far as this goes...


(I have also been told by an employee that Innova does mix tops and bottoms, at least in the design and prototyping stage. Since I do not recall seeing a statement by Davei that this has never occurred, I have no reason at present to doubt the claim.)




Guess what? You are 100% right!!! Just like I stated before, I'm not an expert on this stuff and I really did believe I had heard that in a post from Dave replying to someone asking about the whole TL thing... but I was wrong.

I asked Dave on that same post asking about the TL, and he said:


We do use some parts in more than one mold.



I wish he would have expanded upon his reply, but i guess this is enough that we can infer that they must use tops and bottoms or someting of the like on multiple discs. Problem solved, like I said before, I don't mind being wrong as I just like to be well-informed on the things I am being informed of.

Now, on to your two small questions...

Question 1

1) what percentage of disc golfers do you estimate know of and read the Discussion Board?



What is your motivation in asking me this quetsion Felix? Was it a question to prove your point? One that needs no answer? You really do baffle me Felix. I really think you have no real desire for knowing how many or what percentage of disc golfer that I think read the Discussion Board... I know you could care less what I think :DBut I'll humor you anyways and play along....

Umm... being the master statistician and looking back on the recent census of disc golfers that I enquestioned... uhh... I'd have to go with around 41.237 percent (that number was truncated, not rounded, so I could be off by a thousadth of a percent). No, really, what are you talking about? Is this a quiz? Here, we'll expedite the process a little for you and... you win Felix!, point proven!!! NOT ALL DISC GOLFERS READ THE BOARD!?!?!? Get out of here! Wow, I had never, even in my wildest dreams imagined that not all disc golfers read the PDGA board. Imagine that... Thank you for bringing to such an epiphany!

I mean, that was your point of asking that question Felix, right? To prove your point that people get info from other places, not just inclusive of the PDGA Board...

I understand that not all disc golfers read this board and utilize all of the forums... maybe they should though, once again, it's only their fault for not being properly informed...

Question 2

2) before you found out about the Discussion Board and found the Ask Dave thread, what was your primary source of information about discs? Did you call Innova and ask to speak to Dave, or did you ask other disc golfers you thought would be in a position to know the answer?



Guess what, I found out about disc golf, played a couple times... then immediately searched the internet to find out everything I could about this great sport! I then came across the PDGA, which I immediately signed up for, within 2 weeks of starting to play! At this same time, while perusing the PDGA site, I stumbled across the Discussion Board and immediately began to read every thread ... seriously... like I said before, if I'm going to do something or learn about it, I always make sure that I learn everything I can and am well-informed about anything I am going to be informed about... So, your whole, not all disc golfers read this nonsense is just that... it's their own fault for not joining the PDGA and supporting this great sport, just as it's their own fault for not properly utilizing the resources at their fingertips... ignorance is not an excuse... it's everyones own job to make sure they are knowledgable and informed upon things they try to tell others about... almost a responsibility of sorts... if you're gonna go espouting things as the truth, they had better be just that... and it's your job to make sure it is the truth!

Anyways... I feel like all of this is somewhat in vain as the only thing you will get out of this post is that you were right about the whole top and bottom thing. But, I guess we got that matter solved, if none other... :D

[/favorite thread off]

Sorry for ruining this thread with me and Felix going back and forth... :(
I simply posted a 2 line response to lennon clarifying what the SB plastic was (on topic) and received numerous replies telling me that I was wrong or things to that effect... I simply have been posting now in response to others responses to mine, If you read some of my posts, you will see that I tried to end it all and get the thread back on topic... this was to no avail...

so as to stop from further taking away from the threads topic of 05 Rocs... I will refrain from posting anything not related to 05 Rocs... even replying to Felix's childlike banter :D(jk Felix)...

So, back the topic at hand...

I would like to get a replacement for my 05 spectator Roc...
Has anyone who throws a spectator Roc thrown the regular run of USDGC Rocs (Flagstick and Tribal)?
My 05 was quite flat and seemed much more overstable than my 04, almost as overstable as my 01... is this true with the regular runs of 05s?
Thanks for any info. anyone can give me on this!

05 Glow is really overstable.

05 Glow is really overstable.

how would you compare it to the 04??

Do the 05 Glows feel/fly like the 04 Glows?

Mine does.

killer!!!!

My '05 glow is very overstable but definitely has less glide than the '05 x-out or '05 SB also in my bag.

Is your x-out a special blend x-out or a regular one?
Wondering because my special blend has a ton of glide on it for a champion roc and don't know if you mean the glows have less than normal glide, or what...

'05 Glow is very overstable but with limited glide
'05 x-out (with zonedriven stamp) and '05 sb non-x-out both have a ton of glide but obviously both are less overstable

The '05 special blend flies a lot like a seasoned flat top roc, it is very sweet. Throw it with a little hyzer and watch it flip up and ride it out...

f you would honestly read my post, even the part you yourself reposted, you would obviously see that I siad "make stuff up or play "telephone" with the story."

It's obvious that you're so caught up in trying to defend the indefensible that you fail to see that the "telephone" analogy in no way salvages your claim because it is based on the false premise that on the assumption that the message invariably becomes garbled in transmission.

In the case of the "TL", the "Teebird/Leopard" explanation is the explanation that is still being provided by at least one Innova employee. The fact that people who have been given that explanation continue to believe and to propogate the "Teebird/Leopard" myth demonstrates that the message, though erroneous, has not been garbled in transmission, but continues to be trasmitted faithfully in form and content.


What is your motivation in asking me this quetsion Felix? [Blah, blah, blah ...]



Since you obviously fail to grasp its relevance, I'll walk you through it step by step:


I mean... the Ask Dave D thread is probably there for a reason, right?



The "Ask Dave" thread is there for people who use the Discussion Board to ask Dave questions.

Got that? It's for people who read the Discussion Board to ask questions. That means that in order for someone to ask a question on the "Ask Dave" thread, s/he must, at minimum: 1) know about the Discussion Board; 2) know about the "Ask Dave" thread; and 3) be a registered user of, or have access to the account of someone who is a registered user of, the Discussion Board.

Now, I know that the next statement is a difficult concept to wrap your mind around, but pay close attention, and if you give it enough though, you just might be able to grasp it: a not insignificant number of disc golfers who do not read the Discussion Board, and therefore do not have either direct or indirect access to the Ask Dave thread, get their information from sources they believe to be trustworthy. Because they believe those sources to be trustworthy, they don't bother pursuing matters further once they have received an answer that they deem plausible.

The fact that they are satisfied with the answer they receive, even if it is the wrong answer, is in no way a reflection on their character: most people manage to live quite contentedly and quite comfortably, despite being misinformed about, if not wholly ignorant of, things that matter desperately to others; the fact that they are satisfied is, rather, a reflection of the fact most people aren't on some kind of quasi-moral/spiritual/intellectual quest for the "one true answer," but merely curious.


so, your whole, not all disc golfers read this nonsense is just that... it's their own fault for not joining the PDGA and supporting this great sport, just as it's their own fault for not properly utilizing the resources at their fingertips... ignorance is not an excuse... it's everyones own job to make sure they are knowledgable and informed upon things they try to tell others about... almost a responsibility of sorts... if you're gonna go espouting things as the truth, they had better be just that... and it's your job to make sure it is the truth!

Oh dear me! Is it really THAT serious???? I always thought of disc golf as a sport. I never realized that joining the PDGA and being 100% right every time I answered another disc golfer's question was a GRAND MORAL OBLIGATION, and that I would forever be damned to hell should I be wrong. Thanks for opening my eyes. All I can say is, good luck with your crusade. Now pardon me while I [YAWN ]. :D

Who else absolutely loves the new SPECIAL BLENDS????

I've played 2 rounds with mine now and have 4 birdies on 7 drives. 4 huge approaches that were parked on holes 7 and 18 twice at knob hill, and I hit the pole on hole #15 at Knob Hill on my drive. I can't say enough good things about these special blends. It really is a "Go to disc" I feel confident with it and it performs just how a roc should. Not overstable, but a nice straight flight that holds it's line. A very versatile roc that is the perfect addition to anyones bag. Especially if you like the older San Marino and Ontario rocs. It really is the ultimate disc in that respect. It's the one you will pull out when you are too scared of breaking that classic....and soon you might realize that this is your new classic. I'm stocking up on these now, I can't imagine my bag without this disc now. And that's just after about 15 flights.

I too am digging the special blends. I didnt think I would like the dominess of it at first and actually debated getting a few but Im GLAD I did now. The plastic is really grippy and it feels natural in my hand. I actually wished I had gotten more than I did cuz this disc is NICE. It holds a straight line nicely and thrown with slight anhyzer it will hold that line before it slowly comes back left.

I also got 2 glows and I have to say this thing is a beast. I compared it to my '01 and the glow may FEEL like the '01 but the flights are way different. The '01 has alot more glide and is not quite as overstable. I still like the glow though and its in my bag waiting for a BIG headwind....LOL!!!

People just make a lot of this stuff up or they play "telephone" (game we played when little to show how info. gets messed up when spread from person to person) with the stories and pretty soon you have Teebirds with Leopard bottoms... (when Dave has specifically stated this is totally false and unbased and Innova has never put tops of one discs on the bottoms of another)

The only thing more ridiculous than someone complaining about people making things up is someone who makes things up complaing about others making things up. I seem to recall someone shooting off his mouth claiming
Innova has never put tops of one discs on the bottoms of another.




I stumbled across the Discussion Board and immediately began to read every thread ... seriously... if I'm going to do something or learn about it, I always make sure that I learn everything I can and am well-informed about anything I am going to be informed abou

ROTFLAMO! Seriously, n00b--or is it rube--you belong on Comedy Central.

If you've read every thread, you must have the mental capacity of a refrigerator if you think Fore doesn't know that a TL isn't a Teebird/Leopard because he was disabusing people of the TL=Teebird/Leopard myth long before you came along to enlighten us with your exemplary wisdom. Don't take my word for it, though: check the dates of these posts:

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=231803&Searchpage=0&Main=229271&Search=true&#Post231803

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=43031&Searchpage=0&Main=43005&Search=true&#Post43031

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=42559&Searchpage=0&Main=42323&Search=true&#Post42559

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=39877&Searchpage=0&Main=39870&Search=true&#Post39877


if you're gonna go espouting things as the truth, they had better be just that... and it's your job to make sure it is the truth!

You mean like, "Innova has never put tops of one disc on the bottoms of another"?Let me give you a friendly word of advice, nob: stop writing checks with your mouth that your * can't cover, because as it is, the sound you hear is everyone laughing at you standing there foaming at the mouth with a pickle stuck up your *.

all my 05 glow rocs (every color stamp) are now signed by ken climo?

Post deleted by ESALAZAR

POST ***** :eek:

i think you have said that at least 20 times!! which makes you ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!

ANyone have any Flagstick Rocs unthrown for Sale or Trade?? LMK i need to finish my set..
I have FOR trade:
UNTHROWN:-------------------
1x Champion Spider........(Clear and 174G.. Green foil stamp)
1x Proline Spider..............(old Champion... 175G Blue)
1x ZWasp...........................(Orange 177G)
2x QMS..............................(178G and Yellow with Blue Lettering and Red Dots)
1x Aviar..............................(174 Orange)
1x Aviar..............................(174 Monkey Paw Tourney stamp.. Yellowdisc)
1x Classic Aviar................(174g.. Gold Grid stamp)
1x ROC..............................(176G Beaver Pond Tourney.. ORange)
1x Banshee.......................(Unweighted.. seems max.. Blue)

Collectible UNTHROWN:-----------------------
1x CE Aero.......................(Xout.. Gold LIke the 20th Aviar.. feels max weight)
1x CE Aviar.......................(20th Anniversary.. 174.. REd foil stamp)
1x Q-Omega.....................(Orginal.. not the new production one.. 175G Neon Green. Silver stamp)
1x Z-buzzz..........................(FIRST RUN 178g Red with black stamp(only came like this in first i think)
2x Crystal Z challenger.....(Neon Green form Warwick Animal Fest.. feel max weight)
1x Z Flash...........................(1st Run 172 Blue with multi color foil stamp)
1x CE SPIDER..................(173G White with red stamp)
1x TACHYON.....................(Run 3.1 Unweighted)
1x Proline GREMLIN!..........(175G Yellow with REd stamp.. with sticker)
1x Aurora MF......................(PROTOTYPE Stamp(all black stamp) White 177G)
1x MF Sentinel...................(Limited edition with red stamp. 179G)

Thrown Collectible:--------------
1x Z-Cyclone.....................(173 G Flydye with 2002 Brandywine Windjammer stamp)
1x CE GLOW TEEBIRD T...(NOT TL.. 175g Fools on the hill stamp)


LMK!
-Scott

I can get more of these if anyone is interested. 50 bucks a piece if so. www.lsdga.com/images/discus/Beads.jpg doesnt work, so just plug in for pic.

Not sure if it's a website snafu or if it's for real, but I just ordered 4 special blends off of the Zone Driven site. I thought they were long gone, but they had both red and blue 180s listed as available for purchase. Perhaps they kept some back for sale after the initial fenzy??? I guess I'll know for sure if in a couple/few days.

I ordered them too just tonight and they already took the money out of my account. i guess they're for real. pretty sweet!

-Scott Lewis

As of 9AM cst there were 148 blue SBs (looks like they are 179g, but found under the 180g listing and 83 red SBs (looks like 178g, but listed under the 180g listing)

thats amazing!! :D

Wish I had known that last week, I ordered 4 more Glows, now I'm at the max. limit of how may you could buy. SB's are the best.

Does anyone know where these came from?

Special Blends are pretty sweet!

Wish I had known that last week, I ordered 4 more Glows, now I'm at the max. limit of how may you could buy. SB's are the best.



I dont think they would care anymore, they probably wont check because they have been out for while, just order and see if it goes through.

Hey - We had a reserve of the special blend to handle any potential orders that were lost, misplaced, mishandled, or othrwise bogeyed during the rush. Now that all of these appear to have been resolved, we released the reserve of special blends.

On a related note, since everyone has had a reasonable chance to order, the 50 disc per person limit has been reset.

Thanks again for your support of the USDGC and EDGE.

Take care,
Harold

SELLING 1 179 GRAM ICE champion roc. Flagstick stamp. I need a little bit of money to go down to bowling green with and my boss could not pay me today. So if anyone has a paypal account and wants a killer ice roc for $50 shipped PM me. If this could be done tonight that would be so awesome.

Wow!! SB roc are really awsome disc that have it's predictable flights. Where I want to throw, and it's there!! Soon, I might become a deadly gunslinger!! Next year, Im hoping for lighter SB rocs!!

Deadly Gunslinger Wanna-Be
DeafDGolfer

I agree. The special blend has found a special spot in my bag. I can count on it to be predictable every time. And it sure is a lot nicer to throw through the trees than my old MArino rocs. Everytime I let go of a Marino into the woods, I cringe as it approached the trees. Knowing very well that it could be it's last flight. THANK YOU INNOVA for making these discs. you really did something right this year

Email message distributed yesterday evening from ZD.....

Dear ZD Customers & Friends,

At the end of the day today, we have the following inventory of "Special Blend" Champion Rocs:

180g / Blue = 126
179g / Blue = 9
179g / Red = 69
178g / Red = 20

These discs were not included in the total quantities available through the pro shop, but they were included in the collector's report. Several cases of Rocs (Special Blend & Glow) were set aside as emergency reserve prior to the official release. Now that everyone has been taken care of we feel comfortable moving the remaining balance. The quantities above have been loaded into the pro shop at https://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/. There are also plenty of Glow Rocs still in stock from 178-180.

Thanks again to all those who have supported the 2005 US Championship and the Educational Disc Golf Experience.

Take care,

Jonathan Poole
INNOVA Champion
East Coast Marketing & Promotion
2850 Commerce Drive
Rock Hill, South Carolina 29730
800.476.3968 toll free
803.366.5028 local
803.329.3472 fax

Did I really just get the last 6 Special Bends? I was hoping to get 10 but all the zonedriven website said they only had 6. If so it looks like the value will start to go up on these sweeties :D

very nice , they are all gone finally.. are you throwing them Mc ?? :D

I will be now, I gave a couple away to my friends so i was hanging on to the others, but I have thrown one and it was pretty nice ;)

i agree!!! first throw with it was a birdie!! welcome to the bag!!! bye bye qms..