As an organization struggling with racial (not to mention gender) diversity, the PDGA might want to reassess its marketing personnel & strategy if its Marketing Director is saying such foolish things in the press:
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pool-Boots-Kids-Who-Might-Change-the-Complexion.html

As an organization struggling with racial (not to mention gender) diversity, the PDGA might want to reassess their marketing personnel & strategy if its Marketing Director is saying such foolish things in the press:
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pool-Boots-Kids-Who-Might-Change-the-Complexion.html

Please Please tell me this wasn't our John D.?

As a person from a multi-ethnic background who has worked very closely, traveled and shared accomodations with John Duesler many times over several years, I can unequivocally say that the allegations of racism against him are absolutely untrue. It is unfortunate that the media has taken one ill advised word from his statement and run with it attempting to paint him as a racist. John Duesler is a man with impeccable character who deplores racism and it is criminal what is being done to him. I stand behind John and his family with my support and prayers and I urge everyone to withhold judgement and refrain from making uninformed comments. This is a media witch hunt and the truth will eventually come out.

http://thevalleyclub.com/

Info below was taken from the club's website (yesterday, before it was taken down & replaced with a tersely worded 3-paragraph "apology"):

I welcome any questions or invite you to take a look at the club at any time. Call me to discuss joining our club. I look forward to hearing from you!

Dr. John G. Duesler, Jr.
President, The Valley Swim Club
(xxx)xxx-xxxx or E-mail Me!

Sure enough the PDGA's Marketing Director is Dr. John G. Duesler, Jr. from Huntingdon Valley, PA, a Philly suburb.

Wow. At first, I wasn't sure that the John Duesler quoted in the article was the same person as the PDGA Marketing Director, but a quick google search revealed that the full name of the person at the swim club is Dr. John G. Duesler Jr, which is exactly the same name as our PDGA person.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I followed a link to John's LinkedIn webpage, and saw a few interesting things.

His title is "Director of Marketing & Communications at Professional Disc Golf Association (http://www.linkedin.com/companies/majestic-america-line) ". I could very well be wrong, since I am not well versed on all of the subsets of the PDGA, but I believe that all of our "Directors" are elected, except for our Executive Director, which is the top, full-time employee of the PDGA. Since, John is neither, I am a little uncomfortable with his position given the "Director" title. I have no doubt that it was the BOD who decided on the title, and maybe other independent contractors like Chuck are "Directors" as well, I don't know. I would just hope that the BOD would decide to be more judicious in its use of the "Director" title, especially since we are no longer voting on candidates for the BOD for specific positions on the board, we are only voting for "directors".

As a person from a multi-ethnic background who has worked very closely, traveled and shared accomodations with John Duesler many times over several years, I can unequivocally say that the allegations of racism against him are absolutely untrue. It is unfortunate that the media has taken one ill advised word from his statement and run with it attempting to paint him as a racist. John Duesler is a man with impeccable character who deplores racism and it is criminal what is being done to him. I stand behind John and his family with my support and prayers and I urge everyone to withhold judgement and refrain from making uninformed comments. This is a media witch hunt and the truth will eventually come out.

http://thevalleyclub.com/
I never accused Dr. Duesler of racism, only of unbelievably poor judgment in his statements. A person showing that poor judgment & lack of media savvy should, IMHO, not be a suitable person to serve as a Marketing Director of a large organization.

Not to mention that the "stain" that he will carry with him for the foreseeable future would make him incredibly less effective at performing the actions necessary of his position. How's Dr. Duesler going to try to solicit or negotiate marketing opportunities from black-owned businesses now? Or from the multitude of businesses (particularly ones right in the middle of our lib/hip/progressive demographic) that are sympathetic to racial insensitivity? Or is the PDGA prepared to write off any opportunities with the multitude of such businesses?

Does anybody know where the rest of the quote went?

"There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion … and the atmosphere of the club," What else did John have to say that was omitted from this quote? It looks like they took the word "complexion" out of context to make it appear that he was referring to the complexion of the campers. I could be wrong, but it looks like Duessler could be the victim of a news reporter sensationalizing a relatively innocent statement. I would withhold saying he was making a racist remark (or even using "unbelievably poor judgment") until seeing the entire statement - in context.

You know "benefit of the doubt" going to the player.

I read that the quote came from a telephone interview that John had with the local NBC affiliate in Philly, which means that we will probably never get the full context of the conversation, which would undoubtedly show John in a better light. But, given the circumstances of the hubbub, it was an unfortunate use of the word, even though I'm sure it was a generally accepted use of the word.

i was pleased his comment did not contain the word helix. in any case, what poor word choice. those poor kids.


you see what i just did there?

Does anybody know where the rest of the quote went?

What else did John have to say that was omitted from this quote? It looks like they took the word "complexion" out of context to make it appear that he was referring to the complexion of the campers. I could be wrong, but it looks like Duessler could be the victim of a news reporter sensationalizing a relatively innocent statement. I would withhold saying he was making a racist remark (or even using "unbelievably poor judgment") until seeing the entire statement - in context.

You know "benefit of the doubt" going to the player.
As a person, I have no problem giving him the benefit of the doubt. However, in his official capacity, his remarks & the controversy surrounding them will forever adversely effect his ability to market the PDGA, and, by extension, each day that he continues in office is both a detriment to our sport & a partial waste of each member's dues. Therefore, I cannot extend my beneficence to the point of allowing him to continue enjoying his position in the organization without speaking out.

Does anybody know where the rest of the quote went?

What else did John have to say that was omitted from this quote? It looks like they took the word "complexion" out of context to make it appear that he was referring to the complexion of the campers. I could be wrong, but it looks like Duessler could be the victim of a news reporter sensationalizing a relatively innocent statement. I would withhold saying he was making a racist remark (or even using "unbelievably poor judgment") until seeing the entire statement - in context.

You know "benefit of the doubt" going to the player.

Exactly, sometimes crappy reporters have to create stories to stay afloat.

Sad...

I, PDGA member #24185, agree with everything Ray wrote in the above post. Duesler should not be associated with the PDGA administration any longer.

It strikes me as odd that 2 different excuses/reasons for kicking the campers out were given at different times. That does not sit well with me.

First, "There was a concern..."


Now, "...we underestimated the capacity..."




Brian Graham, what steps will the PDGA be taking to ensure that it is distanced from any allegations of racist views within its administration?

Well, gee, how about hiring a multi-ethnic ED, like we have now?

And, just because BG posted here once doesn't mean that he will field questions. If you have a concern about this, send the PDGA BOD an email, not the ED. BG did not contract with Dr J, the PDGA through its board did.

Unless BG or other contacts on our website start getting bombarded with requests from journalists, I suspect that this one-time event will have any effect on our Association.

Questions

Does anyone here believe everything they read?

Does anyone here think the media has an agenda to increase circulation/sell papers and may trend toward slanting stories to the sensationalistic?

Does anyone believe the omitted words in the quote may change the meaning of what was said? Or might not, we just don't know.

Does anyone think just maybe it would be best to withhold crucifying him before understanding all sides of the issue?

Does anyone here think it would be a good idea to hear from Dr Duessler before making too many judgements?

Answers (OK maybe they are my opinions)

No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

Wow,

Pete Kenney, I'm accusing you of logging into my brain and typing everything I have been thinking.

Like Brian Graham, I know John Duesler very well. I would go as far as saying that John Duesler's opinions are valued and treasured each time I ask anything of him. John is intelligent, insightful, forward thinking, kind hearted, level headed, and one of the most respectful people I have ever met.

As recent as this past April I had the pleasure of staying with him and his family and it couldn't have been any more pleasant. In fact, I had to cut my visit somewhat short because he was heading out to lead an Obama rally.

Simply put - the literal meaning of the word "complexion" has created this ridiculous story and I couldn't be any more saddened by the pathetic people that want to attack this truly amazing man.


Terry Miller - PDGA State Coordinator


Questions

Does anyone here believe everything they read?

Does anyone here think the media has an agenda to increase circulation/sell papers and may trend toward slanting stories to the sensationalistic?

Does anyone believe the omitted words in the quote may change the meaning of what was said? Or might not, we just don't know.

Does anyone think just maybe it would be best to withhold crucifying him before understanding all sides of the issue?

Does anyone here think it would be a good idea to hear from Dr Duessler before making too many judgements?

Answers (OK maybe they are my opinions)

No
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

Bill Burns, what steps will the PDGA be taking to ensure that it is distanced from any allegations of racist views within its administration?

Well, gee, how about hiring a multi-ethnic ED, like we have now?


I don't see how this fact has any relevance to the possible situation of a potential sponsor backing out because our current PDGA Marketing Director was portrayed as racist, or portrayed as defending a racist decision in a news article that was distributed nationally. (fark.com yesterday)



Unless BG or other contacts on our website start getting bombarded with requests from journalists, I suspect that this one-time event will have any effect on our Association.

Your suspicions do not put me at ease and this statement has nothing to do with the issues we are concerned about.

..........

Brian Graham, what steps will the PDGA be taking to ensure that it is distanced from any allegations of racist views within its administration?

As someone who has known John Duesler for well over a decade as a disc golf equipment vendor, tournament director, course designer, and one of the biggest promoters of the sport of disc golf in Pennsylvania as a former PA State Coordinator, the mid-Atlantic region as a past MADC officer, and nationwide as the PDGA Marketing Director, I can also unequivocally say that the allegations of racism against him are absolutely false. When JD was Tournament Director of Pro Worlds 2005, I was his scoring director and spent 12 hours a day for a week in a conference room with him. It is wholly tragic that he is being blamed for the overheard comments made by some of the club member parents, and the club directors who outvoted him to revoke access to the pool for these youth. When I first heard of this situation yesterday morning, I immediately sent John an e-mail saying: that with all the negative press being spun around this situation, I want you to know that you have my full trust and support. If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know.

Furthermore, it is highly debatable at best, and outright laughable at worst, to project that this incident will have ANY effect on his official capacity to market the PDGA. It is a knee-jerk reaction and entirely premature to project whether this will have any action whatsoever to reduce his effectiveness at performing the actions necessary of his Marketing Director position. Anyone intimating that JD should not be associated with PDGA administration based on these overwhelming biased, libelous, or outright erroneous media reports should be ashamed of themselves.

Wow,

Pete Kenney, I'm accusing you of logging into my brain and typing everything I have been thinking.

Like Brian Graham, I know John Duesler very well. I would go as far as saying that John Duesler's opinions are valued and treasured each time I ask anything of him. John is intelligent, insightful, forward thinking, kind hearted, level headed, and one of the most respectful people I have ever met.

As recent as this past April I had the pleasure of staying with him and his family and it couldn't have been any more pleasant. In fact, I had to cut my visit somewhat short because he was heading out to lead an Obama rally.

Simply put - the literal meaning of the word "complexion" has created this ridiculous story and I couldn't be any more saddened by the pathetic people that want to attack this truly amazing man.


Terry Miller - PDGA State Coordinator



second

{Sarcasm on}

I hereby call for the resignation of every single PDGA member, affiliate, player, sponsor, supporter, or otherwise of such players that have ever been convicted of any misdemeanor or felony crime related to drugs or alcohol. My disc golf company, promotes disc golf to schools, parks departments, church groups, youth camps, and thousands of other people through out the year. To know that some disc golfers have questionable pasts is why I call for such resignations from the sport. I want NO association with any of these horrible individuals, ever. Let's publicly and politically assassinate them while we're at it too.

{Sarcasm off}

Do you see how this is absurd? John Duesler has not been convicted or even appropriately represented in this fabricated article and you want the PDGA to assure you that we can distance ourselves from such press and more importantly, ridiculous allegations. HUH? Guess what, people make things up and bad press sometimes has the longest legs.

Again, I'm saddened by the fact the people believe the garbage that is being posted about JD. Then again, someone will probably remove my sarcasm notes and take something I wrote out of context and call it 'news' too.

Originally Posted by DSproAVIAR:
Brian Graham, what steps will the PDGA be taking to ensure that it is distanced from any allegations of racist views within its administration?

Hey DSproAVIAR...

What do you EXPECT the PDGA to do? Brian has already stated that he stands behind John Duesler. At this point, the PDGA has not been publicly brought into this unfortunate event.

Making a statement simply draws attention to the situation, something I am sure that none of the parties involved wants. I am confident Brian Graham has the capability to handle the situation if anything evolves.

For the record, I have all the confidence in Duesler's capability to do the job he is currently assigned to within the PDGA. He is a very stand-up guy and someone that fully trust. This will blow over and the media will move on to something else quickly. They always do... unless your name is Michael Jackson.

For the purpose of this discussion, I don't care whether Dr. Duesler is a good guy, or a racist, or a stark raving maniac with 100 dead kittens hanging in his garage. What I do care about is his ability to effectively perform the job for which we have hired him. Now can anyone say with a straight face that he can do so as effectively today, with this cloud hanging over his head, as he could last week? If you can, you're either delusional or an excellent fabricator. Even if you are delusional & really believe that, do you want someone who is cavalier enough with his words to spark congressional, state legislative, & NAACP probes being the "Director of Marketing & Communications" speaking for the PDGA, the sport, & you?

Whether or not his quotes were taken out of context, or whether or not he has racist leanings, he should resign or be terminated so our marketing & communications can continue in the right direction.

This is truley very sad. I don't know Dr. Duesler and I'm sure he is a upstanding good person. But this is what occured in my office: My co-worker (non-discgolfer) just stopped by cubicle and brought up the story.....

....that is not good.

This gentleman is not going to get a break on this issue as sad as it is. It was published and now it is going to stand for the truth. So VERY SAD:-(

For the purpose of this discussion, I don't care whether Dr. Duesler is a good guy, or a racist, or a stark raving maniac with 100 dead kittens hanging in his garage. What I do care about is his ability to effectively perform the job for which we have hired him. Now can anyone say with a straight face that he can do so as effectively today, with this cloud hanging over his head, as he could last week? If you can, you're either delusional or an excellent fabricator. Even if you are delusional & really believe that, do you want someone who is cavalier enough with his words to spark congressional, state legislative, & NAACP probes being the "Director of Marketing & Communications" speaking for the PDGA, the sport, & you?

Whether or not his quotes were taken out of context, or whether or not he has racist leanings, he should resign or be terminated so our marketing & communications can continue in the right direction.

You are right Vegan, he can't do his job as well today as he could last week. But he will be able to do it just as well or better next week when this COMPLETELY blows over and is revealed for what it is, a total overblown misunderstanding. Having Dr. Duesler step down would be a shame as he is very good at his job with the PDGA. And a knee-jerk reaction is exactly what we don't want.

How many of you remember the name Richard Jewell? The Atlanta Olympics security officer who was immediately publicly suspected of setting off a bomb in the park; only LATER to be found completely innocent and considered a hero for saving lives at the park. For some reason, this story kind of parallels what we have here to me. Don't jump to conclusions and don't over react so quickly.

If this is still national news in a month, I would be shocked. This will NOT affect his job with the PDGA.

JLVD,

It's not my decision. I don't have any suggestions. I paid my dues so that others, like Brian Graham, are paid to make that decision.

I do have an opinion as a member- that quote, coming from our current Marketing Director, does not sit well with me. Neither does the different "apology" that appears on the club's page.


Terry,

Your sarcastic example is not relevant. You bring up past drug and alcohol-related crimes, and speak of every player involved in our sport.

The reality of the situation is that our national Marketing Director made a public statement in an article that has received nationwide attention that is portrayed by the author (and widely accepted by the public, it seems to me) as racist.

Is it your opinion that Dr. Duesler never said those things?

How many of you remember the name Richard Jewell? The Atlanta Olympics security officer who was immediately publicly suspected of setting off a bomb in the park; only LATER to be found completely innocent and considered a hero for saving lives at the park. For some reason, this story kind of parallels what we have here to me. Don't jump to conclusions and don't over react so quickly.
Excellent analogy. If Richard Jewell had been the PDGA's Director of Marketing & Communications in the summer of '96, would it have been wiser for the PDGA to replace him, or to allow a person wearing a big "Olympic Park Bomber" sign on his chest continue to pursue potentially lucrative marketing relationships for (and direct the communications of) the organization? If it had chosen the latter, do you think marketing would have been as effective as if it had chosen the former? Would keeping Mr. Jewell in charge of our marketing relationships have been a waste of PDGA members' money?

as dr duesler undoubtedly is well aware in the world of marketing perception equals reality.

do i believe he is a racist? no
would he change his choice of words given the chance? almost certainly
does it harm his ability to effectively represent this organization? definitely in the short term, possibly over the long term

google john's name currently and there the pdga is, right alongside the word "racist" all over the page.

Excellent analogy. If Richard Jewell had been the PDGA's Director of Marketing & Communications in the summer of '96, would it have been wiser for the PDGA to replace him, or to allow a person wearing a big "Olympic Park Bomber" sign on his chest continue to pursue potentially lucrative marketing relationships for (and direct the communications of) the organization? If it had chosen the latter, do you think marketing would have been as effective as if it had chosen the former? Would keeping Mr. Jewell in charge of our marketing relationships have been a waste of PDGA members' money?

While the situations are not completely parallel, and the circumstances are slightly different, it completely depends on how long this public incident drags on. If in a month, this situation is still raging on, then it might be in the best interest for something to happen. But if tomorrow the story skews a different way then would it have been in the PDGA's best interest to let John go?

I like the quote earlier, "The benefit of the doubt goes to the player." Taking this one incident and ignoring the entire body of John's work is not a smart thing to do.

How about the PDGA wait 30 days to make any decisions and if this is still an issue, then take appropriate action. Of course we could always just just lynch him now.


Wait, I have an even better idea.....Let's throw him in the water and if he floats, then we will know for a fact he is a witch...er.....I mean.....racist! And if he sinks and drowns, well, then we will apologize.

Terry,

Your sarcastic example is not relevant. You bring up past drug and alcohol-related crimes, and speak of every player involved in our sport.

The reality of the situation is that our national Marketing Director made a public statement in an article that has received nationwide attention that is portrayed by the author (and widely accepted by the public, it seems to me) as racist.

Is it your opinion that Dr. Duesler never said those things?

My example isn't supposed to be a direct comparison but I was trying to point out that lots of people involved with disc golf have far worse convicted offenses as opposed to thefar-fetched, non-contextual remarks blown out of proportion by a group clearly looking to cry wolf to anyone that will listen.

Do I think Dr John Duesler said those remarks? By 'those remarks' I'm referring to what he might have said directly to the media ... absolutely, he even told me personally what he said. My argument against all of this is that what he said had ZERO racist intent. Let me repeat this for everyone on the board to read ... John Duesler's remarks carried ZERO racism. He used the word 'complexion' but not in a literal sense. How in the world is it that no one can understand such a concept? Maybe it's all of the great journalists and wanna-be-journalists (most bloggers) that have skewed this so horribly just to have a 'story'?

I believe this entire scenario and national media attention sucks. Oh, and for anyone reading this I don't mean that in a literal sense. I am not being physically sucked out of my chair nor is there a vacuum anywhere present. When I say it sucks, I mean it is unfortunate. I better play it safe in case I'm quoted later.

PS - People are certainly entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that JD can and will perform his tasks of Marketing Director with no problems what so ever. As stated before, this will blow over in a week. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise that no one takes disc golf seriously huh?

First, let me say that I neither think that John's words were racist, nor that he should quit his position. That however has no relevance to what occurred. While it is clear that John did not mean to say something racist, my desire for him not to be removed has more basis in the reality of the world we live in, ones overall intentions, and the recognition that like all things, this will blow over in less than a week.

Let us not forget that John is extremely good at what he does, that he earned the role he plays in this organization by being metered, polite, and professional.

My concern here is what happened, and nothing anyone says is going to make that good. As I read it, a bunch of black kids show up at the pool, someone doesn't like the nature of those kids in the pool, and they are asked to leave. Subsequently, without explanation, their membership is canceled and their money returned.

Now, someone (a participant) claims that the children were asked to leave because minorities were not allowed in the pool. This I find hard to believe, nonetheless, the children were asked to leave. Why? Too many, too rowdy, too humorous? In the first two cases, would one not say, hey, we don't allow 60 kids in the pool at one time (and just how small was this pool?) can you sparse it out a bit. In the second case, wouldn't you ask the kids to behave, give them a warning, then boot those causing problems as opposed to the whole group? No matter how you slice it, the situation was badly handled, period.

Now, once the deed was done, and I'm willing to accept that it wasn't Dr. D., but rather an overzealous life guard, there are lots of things that could have been done. Were sorry, we don't allow that many kids in the pool at one time, my life guard over-reacted, the kids were acting out, throwing rocks, beating up on other kids etc. Instead, what we got was "changed complexion."

I'm sorry folks, but Vegan is right. This wasn't the dumbest thing one could say given the situation, but it definitely made the top 10. Quite frankly, the reporter didn't have to do anything, it was all done for him/her.

So, are we standing on moral high ground, practicality, second chances? I don't have the answer, but the one time I met Dr. D., he was polite, deferential, hard working. He's done a fabulous job representing this organization. I'm unwilling to crucify him for this. On the other hand, my moral side wishes he'd do something to make what occurred at a place that he manages... better.

One last thought, let us also remember that John represents his clients. It is a tough place to be in, especially when your job is on the line. I'd hate to have been John in this situation. Would I have done better? I wouldn't bet on it and anyone who reads my posts knows well that I'm a screaming liberal.

John, go have a beer, go to bed early, sleep in late, and remember, sometimes life stinks.

I like the "throw him in the water" idea.

I am convinced the actions of John Duesler, President of Valley Swim Club, speak louder than his words.

Why did John Duesler, President of Valley Swim Club, send back the check to the poor children? Does that not say, "You are not welcome here. Take your money and don't come back."

The pDGA often acts just like John Duesler, President of Valley Swim Club. I think it is unwise that Brian Graham and Jeff Lagrassa (pDGA communication facilitators) are quick to defend someone accused of an incredibly insensitive act. You'd better hope you are really ready if the national news media links Mr. Duesler to disc golf.

Think clearly, disc golfers. Thank you Vegan Ray for bringing this into the light so that it can be discussed in a hopefully constructive way. Let's hope the pDGA doesn't try to make this a one-sided story; let's hope the pDGA will allow all sides of this issue to be debated.

The only way President Duesler can fix this is if his club invites the children back, free of charge, for the whole summer. Only then will I believe he has even remotely honorable intentions.

Watch the actions disc golfers; especially of pdga officials.

Why doesn't everyone personally listen to John Duesler and his wife concerning what happened:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/video?id=6907653

and then maybe all these assumptions, conjecture, and unfair accusations coming from those with little to no knowledge of the situation can stop.

Just put yourself in the position John and his family were put in, and imagine what you'd be feeling and how you might behave and how your words could be mis-interpreted.

John and his swim club accomodated 3 camps that otherwise wouldn't have access to a pool for the summer. Great gesture.

They made a good-faith attempt to determine what number of kids at one time would be reasonable and safe. Good thought.

When they realized the problem that number of kids could cause in terms of safety concerns in the pool, they told these clubs they could no longer accomodate them. Good decision for the sake of the kids and for the sake of minimizing risk in our litigious society.

John and his wife tried to find other swim clubs that could accomodate these camps once they realized it wasn't smart for them to be at John's club. Great Courtesy and going the extra mile.

When one of the camps goes to the media and complains that they believe they may have been discriminated against, it becomes one of those media-crazed stories.

John, as President of the Swim Club, becomes the media spokesperson for the club. Imagine for one second if you and your family were instantly thrown into the national media gauntlet and national headlines.

John's use of the word complexion was totally mis-interpreted, and he admitted after the fact that it was an unfortunate choice of words.

John and his wife have been inundated with thousands of nasty emails, basically because ignorant people jumped to conclusions before knowing all the information.

John and his wife hold a 9-minute press conference and they conduct themselves with class, dignity, coherence, honesty, and outward calmness despite standing in front of lord knows how many microphones fielding questions from media, some of whom obviously weren't conducting themselves with the same evolved qualities.

What an amazing whirlwind to be thrust into. How might we manage in his shoes?

As for how effective John can be in his marketing role, I believe John has a real opportunity to reveal his true character and his true goodness in probably his most challenging moment of his life. If John continues to express his position and that of his club so eloquently I believe John's stock rises.

It wouldn't surprise me to see John use this as an opportunity for personal and spiritual growth, and as a way to show others the right way to conduct themselves.

It wouldn't surprise me to see John organize some kind of Disc Golf clinic or event for the benefit of and with the involvement of inner-city kids clubs or camps, as a way to bring healing and to help bring people together. I would be the first to volunteer to help John bring an endeavor of this kind together. (Lagrassa, gangloff, billig, and others in the PA region - let's talk).

I have worked with John for over 20 years and if there is a finer human in our global disc community i haven't met that person.

dandoyle
warwick, ny

Dan, I respect your opinion a great deal, but your own words betray you. Is Mr. Duesler an effective, professional, gifted PR representative, or is he incapable of handling being "instantly thrown into the national media gauntlet and national headlines" ?

I'm glad Lagrassa posted that video. The Dueslers, unfortunately, in my opinion, come off as if they are trying say they are victims. The Dueslers claim there were more than 60 children, but when pressed admit they never counted the number. They just say it was unsafe. Then they have the arrogance to claim they "tried to find other accomodations", as if it is completely impossible to find a solution in which the children from Philly could swim in the pool in a safe, peaceful situation!

Again, watch the Duesler's and the Valley Club's actions.

The only way President Duesler can fix this is if his club invites the children back, free of charge, for the whole summer. Only then will I believe he has even remotely honorable intentions. The Dueslers and the Valley Club have yet to invite these children back on any terms; that is a shame. John Duesler ends by saying he's pleased that the children have been offered "other opportunities" elsewhere...not at his private club.

Don't be blinded by your loyalty to your friend. This is an example of exactly how not to handle public relations.

Thanks Jeff for posting the link to the Duessler's side of the story.

I have watched the media frenzy and finally have seen the Duesller's explanation. I've not met him (or her but she isn't central to the PDGA angle) but to me, they came across as sincere, credible, and believable.

I'll keep monitoring the situation but right now I come down on the side of supporting Duessler. I think his past and ongoing contributions to disc golf have earned him the opportunity to remain a visible part of the PDGA. This story may prove to make him unable to continue in that role but that remains to be seen. Only time will tell.

I understand however, how others may not be supportive. And thats OK.
Ultimately, the ED and BOD will decide and I think we all know they will give him the opportunity to remain in place.

It's unfortunate that Duesler concluded his press conference by saying he was glad the children had been given several opportunities elsewhere to swim in other pools. To claim it is impossible to let these kids back to his pool, and for his wife to say they wish there was a way these kids could come back, is really telling.

There are numerous ways Duesler's club can make it look like this was just a misunderstanding that the media has exploited, but Duesler, who is an alleged PR genius according to pDGA representatives, has yet to discover any of them, or invite the kids back to prove that his club is not racist.

The pDGA of course is adding to Duesler's blunders by trotting out their Executive Director to defend him. I'm not saying the pDGA is racist but Al Sharpton might have a different opinion if he googles John Duesler and links him to the pDGA.

The pDGA should immediately suspend Duesler until his swim club lets those children back into his pool. Don't buy these phony claims that Duesler and his club can not find a way to make it look like they didn't discriminate.

Please Please tell me this wasn't our John D.?


If you click on his name in the article, you will see videos - and it clearly is our John D.

This sounds like a story that is just mixed up in the media and a quote broken down to make a story. It's actually pretty easy to do. John is a good guy folks....

First off, on a personal level I am on the side of John Duesler, disc golf supporter, non-racist and really good guy. It seems like everyone on here who has stayed at his house, worked with him for an event or even had a good conversation with him feels the same way. When you get to know the guy, it becomes hard to believe that what he was quoted as saying is was what he meant. It is easy to believe this is nothing more than inflammatory media sensationalism.

However, we need him to get us money from outside sponsors. It's why we put him in that position. It is unfortunate that the people responsible for alloting sponsorship $$ at Nike or Gatorade or Wii cannot publicly afford to be as magnanamous or forgiving as the disc golf community can. I think the bottom line is that right now Dr. D is political poison and I would be surprised if outside companies receive clearance from their CEOs and their own Marketing Directors to work with Dr. D and lend their monetary support to an organization he represents.

The muzzle of the media has been pointed at Dr. D and his image is blasted all over the internet. Why would a sponsoring company give us money and risk having the muzzle swing their way, leaving themselves vulnerable to headlines reading: "Nike supports racist organization"? I can hear the lead sentence now: "Nike has recently endowed the Professional Disc Golf Association, a 90% predominantly white organization, with $20 thousand dollars despite last year's allegation of racism." Racism is political poison and while most of us would like to believe that politics and marketing don't mix, we must face that they do in the real world. The simple fact is that outside companies are going to research the man and link his past to the organization wanting sponsorship money. The current media frenzy is reason enough for companies to keep their money or give it to something else, perhaps the ubiquitously politically popular charities whose ethics are questionable but whose image is squeeky clean.

I don't want to see John Duesler and his family go through any more pain and public torment. I also want to see the PDGA garner some outside money to take the pressure off the TD's and players to generate all the money associated with the sport. The PDGA should be doing EVERYTHING in its power to grow the sport and generate outside sponsorship, and standing behind one of its own in this instance is warm and fuzzy but will not achieve that objective.

The John Duesler? (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090710/ap_on_re_us/us_swim_club_blacks;_ylt=Aj.xDet.aTWfXReR81s8_s10f NdF)

Sounds like a lot of my fellow members would sell there mothers to make a buck. I think very little of anyone that would pat a frisbee family member on the back and then throw them under the bus.
John has my full support in his role as marketing director. (Yes, director, what else would you call it?)

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/t84W1q8pWwk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/t84W1q8pWwk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

...

pretty amazing.....intend on stepping down??? last thing we need is racism in our sport....

it is sad to see people still racist in the world today

pathetic

those last two posts are very troubling.

i hope you haven't concluded that John Duesler is racist. if you have, then you obviously don't know half of the information and you obviously don't know John.

HE didn't do or say ANYTHING even remotely racist. Coming to the conclusion that this issue was based on racism is absurd.

Please obtain all the information and let this issue play out before you form conclusions that result in you labeling someone a racist.

There are numerous ways Duesler's club can make it look like this was just a misunderstanding that the media has exploited, but Duesler, who is an alleged PR genius according to pDGA representatives, has yet to discover any of them, or invite the kids back to prove that his club is not racist.

The "overcrowding" excuse is so weak, it is indeed insulting to the children, and it insults the intelligence of many PDGA members. That pool is capable of handling 65 children or more. A smart PR man would invite the children back immediately and hire as many lifeguards as it takes to supervise the kids!

If anyone from the national media has googled John Duesler and made their way here to see how disc golfers feel, please do not judge disc golfers on the completely unforgivable actions of the PDGA Marketing Director, John Duesler. Many of our members are appalled by Duesler's actions and are disgusted that the PDGA has not forced Duesler to resign.

Unfortunately, I must ask Duesler to resign. If he can not do the right thing and invite the children back, and swim in the pool with them himself, then he looks like he doesn't like black children. We as disc golfers can not be associated with someone who refuses to swim in his pool with black children.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kkzMtzHni_0&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kkzMtzHni_0&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

If he can not do the right thing and

I can think of few better reasons to provide full support to someone but that they come to a different conclusion than SPM.

There are numerous ways Duesler's club can make it look like this was just a misunderstanding that the media has exploited, but Duesler, who is an alleged PR genius according to pDGA representatives, has yet to discover any of them, or invite the kids back to prove that his club is not racist.

The pDGA should immediately suspend Duesler until his swim club lets those children back into his pool. Don't buy these phony claims that Duesler and his club can not find a way to make it look like they didn't discriminate.

Well, according to CNN the swim club has offered to let them back to swim.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/12/pennsylvania.pool.problems/index.html

There can the "suspension" talk now end. We can let this all blow over and get back to our daily lives.

Thanks for posting that link. I'm glad the Dueslers' club took my suggestion.

If any of you get in a public relations pickle, give me a call.

I'm glad the Dueslers' club took my suggestion.

oh, my, don't we think a lot of ourselves...why don't you give Obama some suggestions as well, since you are on a hot streak.

if he is not racist, why were a group of black kids asked to leave a predominately white pool?

will the kids be invited back? imo there is an easy way to solve this media frenzy that has not been done

it makes me seriously question the situation, and while he may be a good person this effects the organization we all pay dues to be a part of, so I feel these concerns are valid. What will be done?

Duesler said the club canceled its contract with the Creative Steps day-care because of safety, crowding and noise concerns, not racism.

you would think someone would have the foresight to realize that accepting a bid from a day care might cause this beforehand, before accepting the check

these excuses are poor and a terrible PR move, even if this was what really happened. Skills that should not be displayed by someone in charge of our PR and marketing for our sport. If i made this mistake at my job I would be fired, as most people would. It is sad that friendship is getting in the way of a business decision that needs to be made in order to keep our organization from obtaining an unnecessary black eye that could effect our growth.

there were 3 camps whose money was returned, all allegedly for the same reason: the swim club was concerned about overcrowding. i don't know the racial make-up of the other 2 camps, except one of the other two was apparently half minority. the spokesperson for that camp said they were treated "extremely fairly".

John and/or his wife stated in their press conference that they had never done this kind of outreach to kids camps before. on paper 60+ kids sounded doable. but what is on paper wasn't the reality.

One also needs to realize that although John is the President of the club, and the public spokesperson, that the decisions and the response may have been the result of the consensus of the Board of Directors and not necessarily John's reaction or feelings.

One other thing that i don't think anyone has touched on on this thread.....

As PDGA Marketing Director, I don't believe that when John reaches out to potential sponsors that he says, "Hi. I'm john Duesler, PDGA Marketing Director. I also happen to be the President of the suburban Philly swim club that was in the news recently for unfair allegations about discrimination against a minority kids camp. "

Do you think that 1. a sponsor will remember John's name because of the media firestorm?
2. that this story will resonate deeply in a negative manner for a long time, especially given that the story isn't over yet and I still believe that something positive can come from it?
3. Would the PDGA want to associate themselves with a potential sponsor that is willing to judge the suitability of the relationship based upon a blatantly biased media event?

I still believe John will manage to make a large vat of lemonade with the truckload of lemons
thrown in his direction.

�There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion � and the atmosphere of the club,� John Duesler, President of The Valley Swim Club said in a statement.

i think using the word "complexion" was extremely bad judgement on JD's part. Honest mistake? yes. racist? probably not intentionally, but still terribly bad judgement.

but dan, i think you are naive if you think that when a prospective sponsor does due diligence on our organization they don't google us and then duesler. and what do you think the first thing that comes up is? regardless of whether he stepped in this innocently, it's still stuck to his shoe. I think that even though he is a good guy, it is obvious his resigning would be in the best interests of the PDGA.

Unfortuanelty for the PDGA doing a Google search of the name John Duesler dosen't pull up very many positves. I'm sure any sponsor considering our oganization will do the same.:(

google john's name currently and there the pdga is, right alongside the word "racist" all over the page.

bad news, no matter what the intentions are, the pdga interests need to come first in this matter. The paying members deserve this, no matter who is at fault in the matter.

I have a question relating to our sport and whom we 'associate' with since that seems to be the rope that people want to hang JD with.

In 2008 there were a number of MAJORS that took place where heavy drinking, illegal drugs, and mild to moderate vandalism and destruction took place all by our very own PDGA tournament competitors. Of course I think these individuals should be dealt with for their actions (although they seemingly weren't because some are our sports top so called "professionals") however, for the comparison to this story I'm talking about the PDGA and manufacturer representatives and our association to them. Due to the fact that I witnessed some of what I'm talking about doesn't make me just a fly on the wall nor a guy that just hears a biased story and runs with it as if it's some form of gospel.

So with all of these things taking place at these events should I call for the resignation of all the PDGA Staff that was at these events? How about the owners of Hero Disc? Innova and Discmania as well being that they were PRIMARY sponsors for a few of them in addition to Discraft's Jim Kenner who obviously is associated with the Player's Cup. Do any of you recall as to how or why the Player's Cup got canceled? Mike Barnett of Sun King put on one heck of an event for many years but our sport's "professionals" ruined that with poor decisions, horrible choices, and law breaking.

So I beg to ask the question ... if we are so concerned about our association with unfavorable mishaps, shouldn't we also look at the smaller scale situations with some priority? I can't imagine what the Plantation Inn has to say about disc golfers at their next national resort convention or trade show.

Terry

reach out to the campers and extend the ten percent microtel discount to their families. if sponsors are not concerned with being part of the problem, surely they will consider being part of the solution.


Maybe it's a blessing in disguise that no one takes disc golf seriously huh?

the fact that many do not take the sport of disc golf seriously is, quite likely, the main reason the man is still employed in the same capacity. unfortunately, the two are not mutually exclusive, and some will add this to the list why the sport of disc golf is not worthy of being taken seriously.




If i made this mistake at my job I would be fired...

So I beg to ask the question ... if we are so concerned about our association with unfavorable mishaps, shouldn't we also look at the smaller scale situations with some priority? I can't imagine what the Plantation Inn has to say about disc golfers at their next national resort convention or trade show.



awesomely bad analogy. the players in question are no more the pdga marketing director than they are held to the same standard. that is part of life. racism doesn't have to be. why do endorse racism, terry?

terry- is there actual proof of the allegations you make about behavior at player's cup? (i don't doubt the allegations- i'm just asking if there is proof of any specific incident- if so, and the pdga has not dealt with it, then there is a problem there.)

unfortunately there is proof of john's unfortunate choice of words in this case. (i don't believe him to be a racist, i merely believe his choice of words to have been very poor in this instance) whether or not this makes him a less effective advocate for the org in the long term is questionable, in the short term there can be no question that it reduces his effectiveness. is there someone better for the job?- i honestly do not know.

Unfortuanelty for the PDGA doing a Google search of the name John Duesler dosen't pull up very many positves. I'm sure any sponsor considering our oganization will do the same.:(

google john's name currently and there the pdga is, right alongside the word "racist" all over the page.






http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/6268/googlel.jpg

HUH?

I truly am baffled by your incoherent post. I'm open to criticism and healthy discussion but I have no idea what your post was getting at.

awesomely bad analogy. the players in question are no more the pdga marketing director than they are held to the same standard. that is part of life. racism doesn't have to be. why do endorse racism, terry?

this really is a bit ridiculous... if John or the club were racist then they wouldn't have extended the invitation to the camps in the first place. sounds like they were trying to make a kind gesture and overestimated how many people the pool would comfortably fit.<o>
</o>

in disc golf terms, if you have a tourney thats half full and then fill it up, the 'complexion' of the tournament changes. is that the best use of the word? No. but it is true. The tournament doesnt have the same feel no matter who the people are. With a lot of our own members seemingly on a witch hunt are TDs going to have to worry about not letting the last guy in off the waitlist based on the color of their skin?


I've never met the guy but this definitely reeks of a witch hunt in the media and sad that it would become one here.<o>
</o>

all but one pdga member is not the marketing director. only the marketing director is held to the standards of marketing director. your analogy is poor and should be edited out of this discussion. after reading your posts, i am not surprised that you reacted with confusion.

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/6268/googlel.jpg


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Try again Jeff

Thank you for the clarification unclemercy.

Respectfully, I must say that I didn't understand your post because of poor grammar and what I would suspect were missing words and punctuation. I see your points now and will continue to respectfully disagree.

all but one pdga member is not the marketing director. only the marketing director is held to the standards of marketing director. your analogy is poor and should be edited out of this discussion. after reading your posts, i am not surprised that you reacted with confusion.

good. do you see now how powerful perception is?

terry- is there actual proof of the allegations you make about behavior at player's cup? (i don't doubt the allegations- i'm just asking if there is proof of any specific incident- if so, and the pdga has not dealt with it, then there is a problem there.)

The Player's Cup Tournament Director of a PDGA Major made this post:
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1354276&postcount=910


unfortunately there is proof of john's unfortunate choice of words in this case. (i don't believe him to be a racist, i merely believe his choice of words to have been very poor in this instance)

I agree with the above statement.

whether or not this makes him a less effective advocate for the org in the long term is questionable, in the short term there can be no question that it reduces his effectiveness. is there someone better for the job?- i honestly do not know.

I think this a hiccup which shall pass. I'll whole heartily admit to being bias as JD is a good friend and a 'great guy' (as his wife put it). Myself and plenty of others will continue to support him for those reasons but also because we believe he truly is the best guy for the job.

[QUOTE=discglfr;1384958]The Player's Cup Tournament Director of a PDGA Major made this post:
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1354276&postcount=910


[QUOTE]

i don't question the fact that there was poor behavior on a number of fronts at the PC but unless there is proof that a specific individual was guilty of a specific offense it all amounts to hearsay.

Terry, how are the problems that occurred at last year's Player's Cup relevant to this discussion?

[QUOTE=discglfr;1384958]The Player's Cup Tournament Director of a PDGA Major made this post:
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1354276&postcount=910


[QUOTE]

i don't question the fact that there was poor behavior on a number of fronts at the PC but unless there is proof that a specific individual was guilty of a specific offense it all amounts to hearsay.

In that long post by Mike Barnett he listed a handful of negative things that took place so just because someone wasn't officially convicted of something doesn't mean it didn't happen either. I was in Japan and had some "professionals" act like infants but I wasn't holding the PDGA Major Staff accountable for the actions of these child like adults.

I'm not really concerned about the details of the Player's Cup nor am I on any form of witch hunt. I was just making the comparison that some members of this discussion are saying we should distance ourselves from a PDGA Director due to some negative press. My point was that when a PDGA Major Tournament Director had some negative press we didn't hang them out to dry (nor should we) because of it.

I concur with an earlier suggestion, "How about the PDGA wait 30 days to make any decisions and if this is still an issue, then take appropriate action."

Terry, how are the problems that occurred at last year's Player's Cup relevant to this discussion?

My whole point of bringing up the bad behavior at MAJORS is this:

- All tournament directors are representatives (albeit volunteer) of the PDGA

- Really bad things can AND have happened at PDGA events (PC was just one recent example)

- Just because these things have happened doesn't mean we should be jumping all over the PDGA Tournament Director demanding their resignation.

People keep calling this a bad analogy and that's fine. I feel that PDGA Players, PDGA Event Directors, and PDGA Board Members all represent the PDGA on a daily basis and just because one hiccup took place with this incident doesn't mean we need to continue this witch hunt.

its hardly a witch hunt, i don't think anyone wishes badly on someone who has done a lot of good work for the organization, but as paying members some of us don't want our organization and the marketing and PR aspect to be tied with someone accused of racism, whether or not it is true or not we may never know. The fact is its out there. The organization/business side of things need to come before personal relationships. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand about this.

If it was a racist move is debatable, however one thing that is not debatable is that is was a horrible PR/Marketing move. How many minorities businesses do you think will do business with them now?

At the very least, the pDGA should put out a statement declaring, "We are monitoring the situation closely and prefer not to comment until all the relevant information regarding this situation has been aired with Senator Spector and various public agencies. The pDGA is committed to diversity, and will make a determination on Duesler's continued employment upon consultation with our attorneys and the public agencies involved."

In short, the pDGA should be talking with a lawyer immediately and they should not let rank amateurs like the two pDGA forum representatives who have posted here represent them in any forum including this website.

GET A LAWYER PLEASE MR. LAGRASSA. PLEASE DON'T THINK YOU ARE CAPABLE OF HANDLING THIS YOURSELF.

Long and short - I think we have all debated JD's unfortunate situation enough. Some feel he should still represent us and some feel he shouldn't. I guess the ED and the Board of Directors will make a decision as to what happens next. JD has my support.

Terry

Mine too. He made a slip of the tongue. He said "complexion" when he should have used a synonym like, "atmosphere," when what he meant was, "noise, crowding and safety." It's not like he used "Imus words."

GET A LAWYER PLEASE MR. LAGRASSA.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but by what warped logic do you consider me having anything whatsoever to do with this?

Because I, like many others have done in this thread, stick up for a longtime dedicated PDGA volunteer who is being treated unfairly?

Because along with a team of other moderators, I moderate about one post a month on this message board?

Seriously Mike, check your logic. I "represent" the PDGA about as much as a tournament director or State Coordinator represent the PDGA. Which is the same as hundreds of other PDGA members.

I agree Jeff, you add extremely little value to the pDGA.

Well, looks like people are making the link to who pays Duesler.

From the comments section at this article,

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Swim-Club-Controversy-One-Big-Misunderstanding.html?corder=&pg=1#comments

We have the following comment:

Reggie Today at 3:09 PM FLAG COMMENT..
Here is the phone number for the PDGA, (706) 261-6342 That is the organization that pays John Deusler!!! Call and complain...He is the Marketing Direcror for the PDGA and is the President of this swim club...

Mine too. He made a slip of the tongue. He said "complexion" when he should have used a synonym like, "atmosphere," when what he meant was, "noise, crowding and safety." It's not like he used "Imus words."

Doesn't fly. Any thing about anything other than what he is now saying doesn't work well. Only we exceeded our total number or some rule that has nothing to do with race would have worked. Sorry.

BTW - I've seen this in the news several times now. It looks pretty bad quite frankly.

On the other hand, John is doing excellent damage control. If this is how he works for us, I'm impressed. You may not like what happened, but you can't argue that he isn't doing an excellent clean up.

BTW - All of the blaming the media for this is Hog Wash, the situation is bad. On the other hand, the more I see, the more I "feel" that John is the patsy for a bad board decision. Queue UPM to say "everyone in the PDGA is a patsy for bad board decisions..."

I agree Jeff, you add extremely little value to the pDGA.

<style>.wysiwyg { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 5px 10px 10px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT: 10pt verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; BACKGROUND: #f5f5ff; COLOR: #000000; PADDING-TOP: 0px } .wysiwyg A:link { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg_alink { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg A:visited { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg_avisited { COLOR: #22229c } .wysiwyg A:hover { COLOR: #ff4400 } .wysiwyg A:active { COLOR: #ff4400 } .wysiwyg_ahover { COLOR: #ff4400 } P { MARGIN: 0px } .inlineimg { VERTICAL-ALIGN: middle } </style>Well at least I actually try to add value, and actually DO something for the PDGA...serving as State Coordinator the last 2 years, Scoring Director for Pro Worlds the last 3 years, a tournament director, writer of articles for Disc Golf World News and Flying Disc Magazine, DISCussion Board moderator, etc.

As opposed to you, who does nothing but complain.

Categorically untrue, Jeff. Why on this very thread, I pointed Duesler in the right direction to begin to untangle himself from this sticky situation. I do more for the pDGA than you'll ever admit, and I'm not going to go into my resume because I don't have the self-worth issues you display.

You're free to ignore the other advice I gave about keeping quiet, but believe me, you should. The pDGA should contact an attorney and get ahead of this situation before more people like "Reggie" start googling Duesler under "web" and not under "news". This isn't over and it won't go away until "Senator Spectre" says so.

Doesn't fly. Flies like a Buzzz. They had a quiet pool that was being used by a limited number of people. They tried opening it up to a couple of day camps. They were overwhelmed by the number of people using the pool. It changed the atmosphere; it changed what their members wanted in having a pool club. Had nothing to do with race. It was about noise and numbers, chaos versus safety. It was a very poor choice of words to use complexion instead of atmosphere. He wasn't talking about skin tone. He was talking about complexion in the abstract sense of ambiance. Any idiot can see that. It's just the too-clever types who have to make his comment into something he didn't mean. Flies like an Aviar.

Curiously the ability to post polls appears to have disappeared. Hmmm...

They're getting closer, disc golfers...I hope the pDGA HQ took my advice...seek an attorney's advice quickly...don't wish this will go away...

http://whyy.org/blogs/itsourcity/2009/07/13/john-complexion-dueslers-2nd-job-is-in-public-relations/


I like the music they put in the video.

I predict it won't be 24 hours before the pDGA issues a statement on diversity now, or that Duesler is taking a leave of absence.

Google Duesler and disc golf now, Jeff. I tell you what, this really must be a nightmare for the Dueslers. I don't envy them at all. Doyle, if he makes lemonade out of this, I'll become a pDGA lifetime member.

Curiously the ability to post polls appears to have disappeared. Hmmm...

Post here (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=30308&page=16) or contact an admin to get the feature enabled.

I posted this July 10th.

You'd better hope you are really ready if the national news media links Mr. Duesler to disc golf.

Ok, the national news media hasn't yet, but a Philadelphia blogger has. Maybe it's time to get the pDGA's public relations guy out to say something about this...I mean, wait, let me rephrase that...

deleted

Shoot the messenger, always a wise move Bill. Classy!

I suggest more censorship be employed---it's always so successful at eliminating problems isn't it?

Asked whether he would resign if necessary to resolve the dispute, Duesler said, "Absolutely, yes."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iLSkiD_HEJq_JPFUxVKAdRWZjnpAD99DVEEO0

Is this guy the post office worker that has been the subject of PMs that have been circulated?

Wow, I kinda feel discriminated against by a former pDGA board member all of a sudden. I kinda feel like you just pulled your kids out of the pool, Bill. I kinda feel like you're whispering things to your kids, Bill. Are you going to get the pDGA to send my membership dues back, Bill? Are you going to say that I changed the complexion of the message board, Bill? Are you going to say it's not safe for me to make so many statements in the pool, Bill?

Whatever did you mean by that statement?

Eom

Shoot the messenger, always a wise move Bill. Classy!

I suggest more censorship be employed---it's always so successful at eliminating problems isn't it?

Oh by all means you are showing nothing but class here Mike. Presenting yourself as one who is trying to be helpful in solving problems of any sort is laughable (let alone this one).

How'd you put it? "Shoot the Messenger?" You appear to be relishing twisting the knife in JD's back - always a classy move Mike.

Really Craig? His club made these people so mad they refused his club's invitation to return and filed a lawsuit and contacted various public agencies and a US Senator is on the case, but I'm wrong for urging the pDGA to distance themselves from this guy?

You don't feel Duesler owes the pDGA any sort of an apology or explanation? You don't have a clue that many disc golfers are disgusted by Duesler's actions?

This is not a simple misunderstanding as Duesler has tried to claim.

I'd love for this to blow over, but let's deal with the reality that this story has made global news. Let's prepare for the possibility that more people will start asking the questions to the pDGA. Someone has to say it.

Craig are you whispering things with Bill in those PM's? Do you not like the way I dress, or how I style my hair? Did I change the complexion and atmosphere of the pDGA when I didn't wear a collared shirt to Worlds? Do you think it's a good idea to refund my membership dues Craig, after all the things the pDGA club's members are saying about me?

Here's what I would like to see happen.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20090714_Annette_John-Hall__Out_of_the_water_-_into_the_right_.html

Annette John-Hall: Out of the water - into the right?
By Annette John-Hall

Inquirer Columnist

The vote is in, and the parents of the Creative Steps Inc. campers said no.

No, they said unequivocally last night. They do not want their children to return to the Valley Club in Huntingdon Valley.

Not after the club took their $1,950 check, the fee for their children to swim once a week, only to have those children subjected to racially disparaging comments by some club members and to have club president John G. Duesler Jr. kick them out two days later.

The "complexion" and "atmosphere" of the club would be changed by the predominantly black and Latino day campers there, Duesler initially explained, before saying a few days later that the campers were disinvited for safety reasons.

Now, Duesler may be a decent guy - he must have known the campers were minorities when he gave them access to the club in the first place. But he obviously has a problem with language. I don't know anybody who uses the words complexion and atmosphere to describe safety concerns.

And I don't know of any children who would want to go back to a club at which they'd been visibly shunned, as happened to camper Jabriel Brown on June 29, the children's first day at the pool.

Brown said he felt the tension that afternoon. And he heard the comments. That's why he was so relieved to see a member with a familiar face - a teacher from his school, Carnell Elementary.

"I tried to say hello, but she just gave me a [gesture] like, 'Whatever,' " Brown said.

"It made me feel bad," the 12-year-old said, "because she used to be my math teacher."

When his own teacher turns away from him, can you blame a child for not wanting to return?

"The children are scarred," Creative Steps director Alethea Wright said.

I don't doubt that many are.

But while the swim club has tried to make amends, voting almost unanimously to reinvite the campers - albeit under global accusations of racism and a civil rights investigation, and while camp parents have lawyered up for what promises to be a prolonged battle - where's the lesson to be learned here?

In the end, lest we forget, it is about what we can teach our children, who, as 14-year-old Dymir Baylor told me, "only want to have fun."

Wouldn't the bigger thing to do be to accept Duesler's reinvitation - no matter how insincere some may think it is - and return to the pool?

Because the only place unfortunate incidents like these can be healed is on common ground. But somebody needs to shift. Otherwise, all may drown in racial quicksand.

When we talk about race, we're always swimming in murky water. Part of the problem seems to be that conversations about racial issues paralyze people. Some folks are reluctant to discuss them because they don't want to be branded as racist.

But the irony is, when they refuse to confront the elephant in the room - or pool - they are accused of being the very thing they were trying to avoid.

Are you listening, Mr. Duesler?

It may be too late to move past the pain. But if I were one of the campers, I would try.

With my head held high, I would stride right up to the Valley Club and do a big belly flop right into the pool.

To show that forgiveness is a powerful thing. And to show that I may not be as threatening as they may think I am.

And to let them know that, just maybe, I don't think that they're as evil as they're being made out to be.

And the negative publicity continues

But…the slack ran out when I learned that Duesler is also in public relations. That’s right the guy, who as President of The Valley Swim Club told a TV station that the organization canceled the membership for minority summer campers was because of concerns about their complexion, is a PR guy.

John Duesler is the Marketing Director for the PDGA

He’s the national Marketing Director for the Professional Disc Golf Association (PDGA). In that capacity, he ensures that serious “Frisbee golf” attracts new members and the sport is taken seriously.

I don’t know exactly why The Valley Club canceled the Creative Steps summer camp agreement but one thing is for sure that swimming pool club could use a real public relations expert


when will the leaders of this organization put the needs of its members above personal relationships? This is a joke

Really Craig? His club made these people so mad they refused his club's invitation to return and filed a lawsuit and contacted various public agencies and a US Senator is on the case, but I'm wrong for urging the pDGA to distance themselves from this guy?

You don't feel Duesler owes the pDGA any sort of an apology or explanation? You don't have a clue that many disc golfers are disgusted by Duesler's actions?

This is not a simple misunderstanding as Duesler has tried to claim.

I'd love for this to blow over, but let's deal with the reality that this story has made global news. Let's prepare for the possibility that more people will start asking the questions to the pDGA. Someone has to say it.

Craig are you whispering things with Bill in those PM's? Do you not like the way I dress, or how I style my hair? Did I change the complexion and atmosphere of the pDGA when I didn't wear a collared shirt to Worlds? Do you think it's a good idea to refund my membership dues Craig, after all the things the pDGA club's members are saying about me?

As usual Mike conspiracy abounds in your little world.

I have not shared any PM's with anybody on this subject, and am generally disgusted by the whole situation. I am disgusted at the actions of SOME of the Valley Club Members, by the sensationalism of the incident by the media, by the heightening of the trauma by the Camp Director, and by the lynch mob attitude of SOME PDGA members.

While you would repeatedly characterize this as "global news" and repeatedly draw links to LOCAL philly bloggers - whose articles have a total of one comment apiece (at last check), your own words betray you. You are not interested in this blowing over - as is evidenced by your hours spent digging and posting here.

What I don't like is ignorance. Ignorant attacks on JD by people who have never met him, ignorant assessments by people who "know" about the situation based on obviously biased media presentation, and the ignorant belief that you or anybody else knows how to best handle the situation from your remote computer terminal.

You say a persons actions speak louder than their words - why not try letting some actions take place before spouting any more words?

"Where's the lesson to be learned here"? was the question posed in the last post.

We'll all learn our own lessons here. I'm willing to wait until the situation has run its course before I form conclusions.

But at this point, the one lesson I learned is how the use of one word can be so distorted. John's use of the word "complexion" was NOT meant in a derogatory or racist manner, if you choose to believe John's comments. However, if you choose to ignore John's version of the word it allows you to view all the other actions and words in a totally different context.

I'm frankly pretty angry that so many folks have chosen to go down the negative path. Whether it's disc golfers or bureaucrats or media members either salivating at their chance to play the race card or otherwise viewing this situation in the most negative context they can, I find it so ashame that we can't give John Duesler and his club the benefit of the doubt. There seems to me to be more information that lends credence to the theory that a good idea went bad than there is evidence that blatant discrimination occurred.

I still hope that the truth as I believe it to be will be the end result of this situation, and that the media gives that conclusion the same attention it gave when the story first broke.

While you would repeatedly characterize this as "global news" and repeatedly draw links to LOCAL philly bloggers - whose articles have a total of one comment apiece (at last check), your own words betray you. You are not interested in this blowing over - as is evidenced by your hours spent digging and posting here.

nbc nightly news and google search would both be global sources of news, 1+1 does in fact equal 2.

Again im not attacking the man personally, it would not be fair, and I support his efforts for the organization. I'm more or less concerned the negative effect this has already had on our organization with the position he holds. I wish nothing but the best for him family, but at the same time care about this organization. The interests of the PAYING members deserve to be heard and represented by our leadership.

Boy.

This issue is not about "benefit of the doubt" or a "lynch mob attitude". Dr. Duesler made a mistake. He would admit that. He doesn't deserve the negative attention he's getting right now, but that doesn't matter.

What does matter is that he is getting alot of negative attention, and that there is no way to hide his link to the PDGA. The whole situation stinks, and I am calling for the PDGA to distance itself from Dr. Duesler. It stinks, and I'm certainly not deriving any joy from this, but it needs to be done.

Brian Graham, put personal issues aside. Think of the organization. WWPGAD?

Again im not attacking the man personally, it would not be fair, and I support his efforts for the organization. I'm more or less concerned the negative effect this has already had on our organization with the position he holds. I wish nothing but the best for him family, but at the same time care about this organization. The interests of the PAYING members deserve to be heard and represented by our leadership.

And if he were to resign or asked to step down, would the google search for the pdga cease to yield the same negative references?

See there's the problem with knee jerk reactions - you can't assume anything about what hasn't happened yet. If JD successfully navigates this mess - what would that then say about his abilities?

No one has yet accused the PDGA of anything - doing so would potentially open them up to libel. And UPM - I don't think the PDGA needs your advice to consult with counsel.

I have to echo the only seemingly cogent voice in the room - Dan Doyle - let's all take a deep breath and let this thing play out, and then we can judge the outcome and what's best for the organization.

I am a legacy member - and also want whats best for the org. The contacts and benefits brought to bear for the membership by John Duesler, exceeds most if not all of his predecessors results. Tossing him out for the perceived possibility of future negative unknowns seems premature.

Categorically untrue, Jeff. Why on this very thread, I pointed Duesler in the right direction to begin to untangle himself from this sticky situation. I do more for the pDGA than you'll ever admit, and I'm not going to go into my resume because I don't have the self-worth issues you display.

You're free to ignore the other advice I gave about keeping quiet, but believe me, you should. The pDGA should contact an attorney and get ahead of this situation before more people like "Reggie" start googling Duesler under "web" and not under "news". This isn't over and it won't go away until "Senator Spectre" says so.

I wonder what the going odds are that Reggie = UPM? :)

Flies like a Buzzz. They had a quiet pool that was being used by a limited number of people. They tried opening it up to a couple of day camps. They were overwhelmed by the number of people using the pool. It changed the atmosphere; it changed what their members wanted in having a pool club. Had nothing to do with race. It was about noise and numbers, chaos versus safety. It was a very poor choice of words to use complexion instead of atmosphere. He wasn't talking about skin tone. He was talking about complexion in the abstract sense of ambiance. Any idiot can see that. It's just the too-clever types who have to make his comment into something he didn't mean. Flies like an Aviar.

Ah yes, the old if we didn't call him a wasp, we didn't really mean it argument. You did say you were a lawyer right?

The problem is that you're playing with words Bruce, and with words, perception is everything. In this case, technically, you're correct, practically, you're wrong. You may not like it, but you're wrong. You point out why you're wrong quite clearly, Flies like an Aviar and John handed them one. Nothing about atmosphere, complexion or any similar wouldn't have. Good politicians and lawyers know this, as do good marketers. The fact is that it doesn't matter what John's intent was, his choice of words, unfortunate as they were, made this an issue.

I have to echo the only seemingly cogent voice in the room - Dan Doyle - let's all take a deep breath and let this thing play out, and then we can judge the outcome and what's best for the organization.

I am a legacy member - and also want whats best for the org. The contacts and benefits brought to bear for the membership by John Duesler, exceeds most if not all of his predecessors results. Tossing him out for the perceived possibility of future negative unknowns seems premature.

From my post on Jul 10 2009, 02:50 PM:

Furthermore, it is highly debatable at best, and outright laughable at worst, to project that this incident will have ANY effect on his official capacity to market the PDGA. It is a knee-jerk reaction and entirely premature to project whether this will have any action whatsoever to reduce his effectiveness at performing the actions necessary of his Marketing Director position. Anyone intimating that JD should not be associated with PDGA administration based on these overwhelming biased, libelous, or outright erroneous media reports should be ashamed of themselves.

From my post on Jul 10 2009, 02:50 PM:

While Jeff is correct in essence, we may not be allowed this luxury. The PDGA may have no choice but to distance itself from Dr. D. Regardless of the source, the PDGA is getting more and more attention from this and if we get a big hit in the media, we will go from being the sport of druggies to the sport of racists. Life is unfair, and this case shows clearly why innuendo, gossip, and lack of responsibility are hurting our society so much. Let's cross our fingers that by Friday the media has some new favorite thing to bash, and that the lawsuit proves untenable (for Dr. D. if for no other reason).

What a nightmare.

i would hope that all of the directors are as wonderful as most here describe and that, in their collective awesomeness, they might work to turn this situation on it's head, and prove what a wonderful group of people we are. surely, it is not a sufficient fix that the executive director leave a message board post detailing his personal relationships and ethnic background. time to be proactive before the blemish scars. to prove that we can be an asset to a community and that the only time we separate people into different pools is at major tournaments.

what are you waiting for? the world is finally watching.

Since disc golf has a virtually subatomic presence in the nation's consciousness, getting publicity, be it not the most favorable publicity, may not be a completely bad thing.

Remember, disc golf is on the 2010 Tiger Woods Wii game, and Tiger is a minority.

The issue Lyle is that it is so ridiculously early to be making those kinds of assumptions and conjecture. It's simply unproductive knee-jerk reactions.

The leap of faith that people are making here is that:
JD has personally done anything racist. This entire issue concerns the actions of the BoD of the swim club and safety at the club.


A month from now, society cares or even remembers about this incident.

In the future, potential sponsors will perform "due dilligence" and Google his name.

If they do pull this incident up, that these potential sponsors will make any connections or assumptions that the PDGA or its members have anything to do with the swim club incident.

That this incident will have any action whatsoever to reduce his effectiveness at performing the actions necessary of his Marketing Director position.

That's a lot of assumptions and conjecture at this stage, and people really should know better.

"The PDGA may have no choice but to distance itself from Dr. D. Regardless of the source, the PDGA is getting more and more attention from this and if we get a big hit in the media, we will go from being the sport of druggies to the sport of racists."

1. If someone chooses to ignore most of the facts and instead chooses to seize upon one of the alternate interpretations of the word complexion and therefore comes to the assumption that John and/or his club is racist, that is their right. However, in my opinion (worth about zero in the court of global opinion) that is one awfully sad and negative perspective to adopt.

2. If someone then wants to take the next step and come to the conclusion that the PDGA represents a membership that is a "sport of racists", then my preference would be to completely steer clear of that person or organization or potential sponsor. I wouldn't want the PDGA to associate with an entity or individual that close-minded, negative, and lacking in compassion.

2. If someone then wants to take the next step and come to the conclusion that the PDGA represents a membership that is a "sport of racists", then my preference would be to completely steer clear of that person or organization or potential sponsor. I wouldn't want the PDGA to associate with an entity or individual that close-minded, negative, and lacking in compassion.
If Nike were to offer $5,000,000 in support of a real National Tour, contingent on the resignation of Dr. Duesler (let us posit for the sake of argument that Nike has "chosen to ignore most of the facts and instead chooses to seize upon one of the alternate interpretations of the word complexion and therefore comes to the assumption that John and/or his club is racist"), should the PDGA accept the $$, or "completely steer clear of that person or organization or potential sponsor"?

True, a relatively fantastic scenario, but not tremendously so, as those sorts of deals are what a Director of Marketing & Communications should be pursuing.

This discussion is blowing hot air, nothing more. What does it matter what we each think? Nothing. What does it matter what the public thinks? Nothing. What does it matter what really happened? It doesn't.

All that matters is what the Director of PR and Marketing for Nike or Gatorade or any other potential sponsor thinks. Will they give Duesler money or won't they? Will they risk the negative media attention or won't they?

Marketing and PR are CONSERVATIVE. They do not take risks to prove moral points. It won't be up to them to show forgiveness and magnanomy in the media. If we do these things, it is to our own detriment financially. We are an organization that can't/won't even pay out the top 10 female players at a Worlds tournament because the money isn't there --- and it should be.

Can he or can't he get another Marketing Director to give him money? Duesler should know that answer better than anyone. He's not stepping down, so he thinks he can. Well, if we're going to stick by him, let's let him put up and then we'll shut up. If he can get us X amount of money by the end of the year, he proves he can overcome negative publicity. If he can't, we know that sponsors fear the stain he brings to their company and he can't do his job.

Until then, should we continue to pay him his normal salary out of our dues? That's probably what this hype is all about. Members pay the PDGA thousands of dollars every month and we like accountability.

So cut it out with the "in my opinion" this and "I think" that. The only thing we need from this man is outside money. His intentions don't matter. Our foriveness does not matter. Only sponsorship money will speak for Dr. Duesler and his salaried position with the PDGA now.

Since disc golf has a virtually subatomic presence in the nation's consciousness, getting publicity, be it not the most favorable publicity, may not be a completely bad thing.

Remember, disc golf is on the 2010 Tiger Woods Wii game, and Tiger is a minority.

Bill,

We learned a hard lesson here in New Orleans with
our C. Ray Nagin (chocolate city,...)
Here is a link to his branding comments.
[/URL][url]http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/wwl081007tpbrand.1fb286f1.html (http://www.pdga.com//http://www.wwltv.com/topstories/stories/wwl081007tpbrand.1fb286f1.html)
How does this relate to Dr. D?
This kind of publicity, no one wants!

steve timm

Members pay the PDGA thousands of dollars every month and we like accountability.

well said sarah D, i'm sure nothing will be done like usual however......

Remember, disc golf is on the 2010 Tiger Woods Wii game, and Tiger is a minority.

translation, "i have black friends".

Vote with your feet people... this is a BoD decision to make as regards the PDGA. Did you get the ballot? Better yet, are you on it?

If the connection were made on a national scale, disc golf would instantly be known by how many millions of people more than now?

I'm willing to bet that 95% of those millions would concur that this is just a bunch of hogwash. The other 5%? Well, I care as much about them as I do the whiners amongst our membership that won't do anything to effect the change for which they so vehemently clamor. Brings to mind people that complain about our civic leadership but never vote!

There is no such thing as bad publicity...

There is no such thing as bad publicity...
ROFLMFAO!!! I think Dr. Duesler might disagree with you on that one.

The issue Lyle is that it is so ridiculously early to be making those kinds of assumptions and conjecture. It's simply unproductive knee-jerk reactions.

The leap of faith that people are making here is that:

JD has personally done anything racist. This entire issue concerns the actions of the BoD of the swim club and safety at the club.



A month from now, society cares or even remembers about this incident.

In the future, potential sponsors will perform "due dilligence" and Google his name.

If they do pull this incident up, that these potential sponsors will make any connections or assumptions that the PDGA or its members have anything to do with the swim club incident.

That this incident will have any action whatsoever to reduce his effectiveness at performing the actions necessary of his Marketing Director position.

That's a lot of assumptions and conjecture at this stage, and people really should know better.A month from now? How about five minutes from yesterday? I was having lunch with Devine today, http://app.razorplanet.com/acct/42013-3024/images/staff_13807_1228249193.jpg
and I asked him if he had heard of this. He was clueless. And he didn't find it all that shocking.

Are the government controlled news media running with this story or is it just local to Philly. It's not like it is on Drudge. Are Jesse and Al on this yet?

Are the government controlled news media running with this story or is it just local to Philly. It's not like it is on Drudge. Are Jesse and Al on this yet?

WOWSERS!

The government controlled news media. Yep, I bet they flew them black helicopters into Philly and made the whole thing up...

BTW - I've seen this story on CNBC and CNN and heard it on NPR, all government controlled of course. It it isn't on FOX, home of the fair and balanced, then we don't have to worry, it isn't really in the news...

I bet they flew them black helicopters into Philly and made the whole thing up...

black helicopters??! at the valley club?!?


let's hide and hope they all blow over...

WOWSERS!

The government controlled news media. Yep, I bet they flew them black helicopters into Philly and made the whole thing up...That's just humorous codespeak for those who know the code. ;) Probably a little outrageous sounding to those who are clueless.

I saw it on my local news in Oklahoma the other night...

I think the real issue here is this...

We don't know who initiated inviting the kids to the club. Perhaps it was Duesler. If so he had good intentions, or was looking to bring in some additional ca$h to White Valley during the recession. Once the kids showed up the members of White Valley were aghast and wanted nothing to do with them. Having lifeguraded at private club pools etc. during college having an influx of x number of kids is not a dangerous situation. The lifeguard(s) can control it. It really appears the membership of White Valley didn't want the kids there once color came to town. Yes he botched his comments which is not a good reflection of a PR "professional" and he was probably ordered to refund the money by White Valley. The Association needs to be more worried about the perception of having one of their directors affiliated with White Valley. More than resigning from the Associaton Duesler should consider resigning from White Valley, but that's probably his main gig and he's not going to give up his primary source of income.

If Nike were to offer $5,000,000 in support of a real National Tour, contingent on the resignation of Dr. Duesler (let us posit for the sake of argument that Nike has "chosen to ignore most of the facts and instead chooses to seize upon one of the alternate interpretations of the word complexion and therefore comes to the assumption that John and/or his club is racist"), should the PDGA accept the $$, or "completely steer clear of that person or organization or potential sponsor"?

True, a relatively fantastic scenario, but not tremendously so, as those sorts of deals are what a Director of Marketing & Communications should be pursuing.

If Nike wanted to sink $5,000,000 into the sport they would likely ignore he PDGA completely and setup their own competitive format aimed at televised coverage.

The lifeguard(s) can control it.
Lifeguards at a slow private pool that sees maybe 20 kids at a time may be hard pressed to handle 60+ additional kids at once. I seem to recall a snippet from one of the news conferences that they had three separate recreational areas and did not realize that all of the kids would go directly to the pool.

"Finally, one of my philosophies in life is that no one is irreplaceable."---Dr. John Duesler, 2007.

Quoted at:

http://zonedriven.com/05/14/zonedriven-interview-with-dr-john-g-duesler-jr

Lifeguards at a slow private pool that sees maybe 20 kids at a time may be hard pressed to handle 60+ additional kids at once. I seem to recall a snippet from one of the news conferences that they had three separate recreational areas and did not realize that all of the kids would go directly to the pool.

You're still clinging to the theory that the kids weren't asked back for safety reasons. That's patently absurd. If safety was an issue then White Valley would have told the group that they'd have to limit the kids to x number at the pool at a time instead of storming it in mass as reportedly happened. Sending the Duesler signed check back the next day translates to:

we don't want your kind here

How convenient to leave out the other 2 groups that also had their "memberships" revoked. One group was all white and one nearly 1/2 white. But that doesn't fit as neatly into a sensationalistic story degisned solely to stir up controversy and increase ratings/circulation.

Good to see you haven't fallen into the trap of letting reality kill a really good sensationalistic story.

If Nike wanted to sink $5,000,000 into the sport they would likely ignore he PDGA completely and setup their own competitive format aimed at televised coverage.

i, for one, appreciate this man's foresight and hereby nominate him new marketing director. all in favor of nike ignoring the pdga say aye.

I have a hard time with the fact that with John having a enormous amount of experience in marketing, that he was not aware of the representation and views of his club members. Association is huge! Common sense says to not be associated with racist/descriminatory organizations. If one chooses to associate with such organizations after having the insight, then they are guilty of representing and supporting racism/descrimination. I also am curious if John was the endorser of the "It's in the Air" slogan. This again makes me question his marketing abilities.

The PDGA needs to make a good faith guesture and provide all these kids with a lifetime PDGA membership. Have EDGE get up there and do some significant education and clinics to provide these children and families with some positive protective factors to an already heavy burdened life with higher amounts of risk factors. At the very least, it provides these individuals with something positive while receiving guenuine attention and support if such an endeavor comes to fruition. I would also like to be a part of the solution. The children and families are the victims here.

Swim club in racial flap says it can't afford lawsuit


http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/15/swim.club.problems/index.html


"Our pool could not handle a lawsuit. We don't have the money. We're just a small club. We're volunteers," said Bernice Duesler, the swim club director's wife. "I hope we can teach our children a lesson -- that you should admit errors. We should have done things differently. And if there are differences, we can overcome them."

"Some black and Hispanic children said white club members made racist comments to them, asking why "black children were there" and raising concerns that "they might steal from us."

Days later, the day care center's $1,950 check was returned without explanation."


So when IS the pDGA going to dismiss Dr. John Duesler? After we get sued too? No one is irreplaceable. Gary Duke's been nominated to take Duesler's place. I second that nomination.

i, for one, appreciate this man's foresight and hereby nominate him new marketing director. all in favor of nike ignoring the pdga say aye.

Nike will ignore us, whether we're in favor of it or not.

How convenient to leave out the other 2 groups that also had their "memberships" revoked. One group was all white and one nearly 1/2 white. But that doesn't fit as neatly into a sensationalistic story degisned solely to stir up controversy and increase ratings/circulation.

Good to see you haven't fallen into the trap of letting reality kill a really good sensationalistic story.

How convenient that you leave out the racist comments directed at the kids and overheard by the kids from the membership of White Valley. Oh wait...I guess those kids being black is dangerous is a safety issue.

that is very supportive, david. i always appreciate hearing from you.

Nike will ignore us, whether we're in favor of it or not.


to your knowledge, is this part of the greater marketing strategy?

Let me start by saying that I do not know John and bear no ill will towards him. I have no doubt that his words were taken out of context.

With that said:

http://whyy.org/blogs/itsourcity/2009/07/14/disc-golf-community-express-concerns-over-valley-club-prez/

Apologies. Just trying to be humorous. Obviously, not very good at it. It's a knee-jerk reaction I have everytime I see a post about Nike or ESPN or million-dollar purses or other big-league prospects, now or in the near future. I believe we're way too small to be of any significant commercial interest to the outside world, and I suspect it will always be that way (though I applaud the efforts of those who disagree and hope they will prove me wrong).

There are lot of passions on this thread, to which I shall not add. I'm curious as to how many of those calling for our Marketing Director's head are the same folks who are never happy, regardless of what the PDGA board does.

I've neither followed this news story---I'm blessed to no longer have cable news---nor to care a great deal, either way. It looks to me like our marketing director has done a better job than any who came before; whether he'll be hampered in the future, I don't know, but I suspect not.

I'll try to keep my posts of my knee-jerk reactions in check. I'm sure others will pick up the slack for me.

How convenient that you leave out the racist comments directed at the kids and overheard by the kids from the membership of White Valley. Oh wait...I guess those kids being black is dangerous is a safety issue.

The Association needs to be more worried about the perception of having one of their directors affiliated with White Valley. Should the volunteer president of a swim club be labeled a racist and be asked to resign for another club member's alleged racist remarks or actual racist beliefs?


If so, should the PDGA's volunteer president be labeled a sexist and be asked to resign because at least one club member appears to openly and proudly objectify women?


Although the more relevant question: Should the PDGA's volunteer president have to resign from his paying job (that is not related to the PDGA) because there is an allegedly sexist member in a club he volunteers to run?

Lifeguards at a slow private pool that sees maybe 20 kids at a time may be hard pressed to handle 60+ additional kids at once. I seem to recall a snippet from one of the news conferences that they had three separate recreational areas and did not realize that all of the kids would go directly to the pool.


are you kidding me? do you realize the small space 60 people can fit in a pool? smaller then a high school pool and i guarantee there was not 3 lifeguards watching your pool. this is not rocket science, unless he was blind. Was he blind? if so i understand

Should the volunteer president of a swim club be labeled a racist and be asked to resign for another club member's alleged racist remarks or actual racist beliefs?


If so, should the PDGA's volunteer president be labeled a sexist and be asked to resign because at least one club member appears to openly and proudly objectify women?


Although the more relevant question: Should the PDGA's volunteer president have to resign from his paying job (that is not related to the PDGA) because there is an allegedly sexist member in a club he volunteers to run?

Careful there, Discette. You're using an overtly relevant example, with valid rationale, sound logic, and common sense to completely rebut the accusations being made against our Marketing Director. That kind of thing is frowned upon around these parts.

Remember that on the internet and in the court of public opinion amongst opponents of the PDGA, people are guilty until proven innocent. This is a witch hunt and they've found their witch; try as we might, nothing will convince them otherwise.

I am late to this...

But I have seen it other forums both r'us and DGR.

The same guy that came up with "It's in the AIR" talked about minority children using the word "complexion"?

Do you know how big a joke "It's in the AIR" is when people smell dope on the course?

That's Marketing?

Racism isn't the problem...

Should the volunteer president of a swim club be labeled a racist and be asked to resign for another club member's alleged racist remarks or actual racist beliefs?


If so, should the PDGA's volunteer president be labeled a sexist and be asked to resign because at least one club member appears to openly and proudly objectify women?


Although the more relevant question: Should the PDGA's volunteer president have to resign from his paying job (that is not related to the PDGA) because there is an allegedly sexist member in a club he volunteers to run?

Discette, the issue here is not "another club member's alleged racist remarks". The issue is that our Marketing Director, "head PR guy", is receiving very negative publicity/attention in national news. He is being portrayed and, I assume, perceived as the president of a club that harbors racism/members with racist views. He is also portrayed as racist, or at least insensitive, because of his mistaken "complexion" comment.

Perception is the issue here. It doesn't matter what Dr. Duesler's actual views are. It only matters how he is perceived. He needs to resign. The article detailing the lawsuit posted today on CNN.com is currently in the top 10 most popular news articles nationwide.

well said DSproavair

this is NOT A WITCH HUNT, NOR ABOUT ONE PERSON

ITS ABOUT THE NEEDS OF THE ORGANIZATION AND ITS BEST INTERESTS

i'm really confused as to why this is so hard to understand

Because of what's...

In the air.

"well said DSproavair

this is NOT A WITCH HUNT, NOR ABOUT ONE PERSON

ITS ABOUT THE NEEDS OF THE ORGANIZATION AND ITS BEST INTERESTS

i'm really confused as to why this is so hard to understand"




Huh? What?

it's so hard to understand because 1. it hasn't completely played out yet; 2. there is no evidence yet that the needs of the organization and its best interests have been compromised or minimized as a result of the misinformed media reports.

it sure sounds akin to guilty until proven innocent.

how about waiting for a reasonable amount of time to determine if our Marketing Director is less effective before we strip him of his position? how about getting feedback from potential new sponsors that decline to be involved with the PDGA going forward to see if their hesitation to be involved has ANYTHING to do with this ignorant media craze.

i'm really confused as to why this is so hard to understand.

Should the volunteer president of a swim club be labeled a racist and be asked to resign for another club member's alleged racist remarks or actual racist beliefs?


If so, should the PDGA's volunteer president be labeled a sexist and be asked to resign because at least one club member appears to openly and proudly objectify women?


Although the more relevant question: Should the PDGA's volunteer president have to resign from his paying job (that is not related to the PDGA) because there is an allegedly sexist member in a club he volunteers to run?

More so that the club sent the money back (under Duesler's name) because it seems they didn't want the kids back and their comments indicate that it was based on their race.

People are responding in their defense of the individual as though people are saying kick him out of the PDGA...

People seem to be saying maybe we need another wordsmith or image maker...

Let’s have someone in charge of our message who doesn't grab the word "complexion" when talking about minority children.

Let’s have someone in charge of our message who doesn’t come up with "It's in the Air" when trying to market a sport to the public and potential sponsors when the sport is extremely sensitive to its association with the drug culture.

Where is the flaw in that logic?

By the way - in my White Collar job when people ask me how was my weekend and did I get any rounds in - the motion they use isn't like throwing a disc or putting... They take the "Fast-Times" drag on an invisible joint and start laughing... so maybe I am a little sensitive to the inanity of "It's in the Air" associated with an intentional "professional" marketing plan.

Now after hearing "complexion" used when trying to diffuse an issue involving minority children - it all makes sense.

The other irony of the defense of Duesler by Graham and others is for years we heard about the importance of purity and dignity of the message bored for the influence it may have on potential sponsors. Now the Association has the Duesler incident and many of the same people are saying it's no big deal and there is no worry about sponsor impact. I think Duesler and White Valley is much bigger than anything that ever happened here.

Something smells bad...

In the air.

My. It certainly is refreshing to see so much membership interest in the PDGA's marketing program. AND, the purity of it's image. Normally, a thread on the former sinks out of sight, and on the latter, combusts in ridicule. Now we're headed for 200 posts.

Should the marketing director position come available, for real reasons or perception or whatever, I suspect the PDGA office is going to get swamped with applicants.

The greatest irony I see around here is the folks who renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about.

http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/unknown.png

The greatest irony I see around here is the folks who renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about.

Not as great as the irony of those who renew every year and don't even play sanctioned events.

The greatest irony I see around here is the folks who renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about.


Don't stress Jeff........it is INCONCEIVABLE that someone will ever take your title until you retire from the PDGA Discussion Board. You will always have my vote until you are gone. Scouts honor!

The greatest irony I see around here is the folks who renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about.

One of the most prominent of these used the word "we" in referring to the PDGA in one of these posts.

It may have been a first.

The other irony of the defense of Duesler by Graham and others is for years we heard about the importance of purity and dignity of the message bored for the influence it may have on potential sponsors. Now the Association has the Duesler incident and many of the same people are saying it's no big deal and there is no worry about sponsor impact.

Hear, hear! I guess you and I don't look so undignified after all :)

Is hypocrisy too strong a word? Is hypocrisy a pDGA message board-approved word?

I tell you what, the comedy the pDGA provides is worth every nickel of my over-priced membership :)

I saw an article about this in the San Diego newspaper.

I had a friend at work forward a link about this story to me via email, with the note "no wonder, he's a disc golfer!"

Not as great as the irony of those who renew every year and don't even play sanctioned events.

Hogwash. I'm willing to bet there are hundreds if not THOUSANDS of members who renew each year and don't play a single sanctioned event each year.

I'm simply one of 12,000+ active PDGA members who want to support our national organization and grow the sport of disc golf. I believe in our progams and initiatives (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/../faq/membership/where-do-my-membership-fees-go) and the people who are making them happen. Besides, I get my share of competitive disc golf through enough monthlies, Ice Bowls, BYOP Doubles, random draw doubles, Ace Races, World's Biggest, tag rounds, glow rounds, & casual rounds against golfers of my same skill level. I managed to tie for 7th and last cash out of a field of 23 in Open at the 28th Annual Conrad Weiser Historical Park Open last September, and a tie for 3rd out of a field of 11 in Open at the Crawdad Chiller Ice Bowl in January.

I renew each year to support our national organization and grow the sport of disc golf. You renew seemingly just to put down the Association every chance you get.

Not as great as the irony of those who renew every year and don't even play sanctioned events.

You mean Jeff's like Duesler and doesn't want to associate with people who change the "atmosphere"?

No wonder Jeff's so afraid of these little kids from Philadelphia. If he can't handle disc golfers, why would he want to swim with kids who might change the "complexion" of his world?

I have changed my mind.

I say we keep Duesler.

We can make jokes about "complexion" and "atmosphere" and returning checks with no explanation and pDGA hypocrisy for years.

When my friends laugh at me for playing disc golf, I can say, yeah, what do you expect, we kept that Duesler guy on staff after his swim club kicked those kids out of his pool!

I love it. Imagine the possibilities, we can all talk about Doyle's "lemonade" as if it were the actual Kool-Aid he drinks every day to believe the pDGA has a shred of credibility if they keep Duesler.

I say, keep John Duesler as our marketing director. Let's make certain this sport is always the laughing stock of the world of sports! Let's never have any chance of landing a major sponsorship because we kept Duesler on staff. I like my galleries small, thank you.


SAVE JOHN DUESLER!!!

.

I double dare one of y'all to go post in the "Ask Dave about Innova" thread:

(feel free to cut and paste)

Dear Dave,

Does Innova make any discs that float? I've been inspired to make some lemonade and invite a bunch of kids back to my swimming pool and I want to introduce them to disc golf at the same time. So do you have any floating discs we could purchase from your fine company who gets free advertising here everyday in this very thread?

It doesn't matter what color they are, as long as they float.

Signed,
Market Man

Dear Golf Disc Manufacturer,

I'm still president of this private swim club in Pennsylvania and as the head of a global disc golf association's Marketing team of semi-professionals, I'd love for your disc golf manufacturing company to participate in a little get-together we're having at our club. Would you consider sponsoring the first "Lemonade Swim and Disc Golf Event" at our club? There will be huge publicity for this event! CNN and all the local Philadelphia TV stations will be there! How would you like to get your disc golf company's logo in front of a worldwide audience?

Let's make lemonade for all the kids. Get on the cutting E.D.G.E.

Call me,

Market Man

how about waiting for a reasonable amount of time to determine if our Marketing Director is less effective before we strip him of his position?

pointless, nobody is debating the work he has done for the pdga. More about the publicity his name is bringing to our organization


The greatest irony I see around here is the folks who renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about.

for those of us that play a good amount of events it is pointless not to renew. I like playing competitive disc golf. This has nothing to do with how the organization is run. We support the organization with OUR money. I guess we are not allowed to voice our opinion when we have a problem with the organization WE pay to support?

for those of us that play a good amount of events it is pointless not to renew. I like playing competitive disc golf. This has nothing to do with how the organization is run. We support the organization with OUR money. I guess we are not allowed to voice our opinion when we have a problem with the organization WE pay to support?

Well the Pennsylvania state coordinator has refused to play in sanctioned events for several years now, so apparently the Association isn't really about actually playing disc golf. Of course they do things differently in Pennsylvania...like race relations etc.

I have a potentially huge sponsor that is interested in an affiliation with the pDGA tour.

I have tried to get some help convincing this huge company to sponsor a few events, but for some reason, I can't get a response back from the pDGA marketing department for over a week now.

I'd sure like someone who's "more qualified" than I to talk to this company before they lose interest, or before they conclude that the pDGA doesn't have the ability to help promote its products because I can't get a response.

Anyone have any suggestions?

By the way, I am thankful to the pDGA moderators and former board members for not personally attacking me for almost 48 hours.

http://www.opticstalk.com/uploads/3940/Troll.jpg

I think the peak of the crisis has passed.

We're now getting more comments about the PDGA in general and Jeff than we are about Duesler.

In another week this will have all blown over...except for comments about PDGA and Jeff of course. I'm afraid those are here to stay.

As detailed in our Board Rules (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/faq.php#constructive_criticism), constructive criticism is welcomed here. Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions that are intended to improve something. It should be given in a polite and helpful manner, rather than an oppositional one, and is usually backed up with an offer of possible solutions. It should not attack the recipients� traits, character, affiliations, spelling, grammar or, even minor misconceptions that are moot to the central point.

As long as there are a few folks who choose not to make constructive criticism but instead make nothing but derogatory posts about the PDGA, I won't hesitate to speak up about it, even if it makes me a target.

And again, the irony that these folks renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about, is overwhelming.

And again, the irony that these folks renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about, is overwhelming.

would you consider this valid and well reasoned or do the same guidelines quoted not apply to you?


while it is easy to distance yourself from the minority group, that was kicked out of white valley, i wonder if you would champion the same actions had your child been exposed to the same maltreatment. what is seemingly overwhelming is that the pdga finds this acceptable. apparently, they would have you held to a higher standard on line than off. again, do you see how powerful perception is?

"the minority group that was kicked out of the swim club"......."the inappropriateness of this act"...(paraphrased)

this is a totally distorted view of the events, or at least only 1/3 of the story.

besides the minority group that was asked not to return, there was also a camp of almost all non-minority kids and a 3rd camp that was apparently 1/2 minority. those 2 camps were also asked not to return.

were they discriminated against too? should the non-minority camp reach out to the media and complain that they were discriminated against? how about the 3rd camp? incidentally, the spokesperson for the camp that was 50% minority was quoted as saying they were treated "extremely fairly".

it disgusts me that folks want to indict others by seizing upon a few bits and pieces of the entire incident.

if you want to discuss what is and is not appropriate, how about looking at the whole picture, and also waiting to see how the story ends.

it disgusts me that folks want to indict others by seizing upon a few bits and pieces of the entire incident.

if you want to discuss what is and is not appropriate, how about looking at the whole picture, and also waiting to see how the story ends.


But Dan,
Ignorance, impatience, and sarcasm bring so much more immediate satisfaction. :(
Oh yeah, let's not forget self importance.

But Dan,
Ignorance, impatience, and sarcasm bring so much more immediate satisfaction.
Oh yeah, let's not forget self importance.

this isn't about me. i have already had the opportunity to be involved with, and to form an independent opinion of, the pdga. unfortunately, your strong feelings are not enough to change the collective conciousness. to believe otherwise would be an example of the same inflated sense of self importance you unsuccessfully used to attempt to poke fun with regards to something so serious. you don't believe racism is very serious do you?

And again, the irony that these folks renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about, is overwhelming.

The moderators are here to save you, don't be afraid to use them

Wow! All the Old School Message Board Legends are all chiming in, how lucky are we all to have such an All-Star cast of opinions.

I have known the Duece for a long time now and have had tons of conversations with him with more important stuff than disc golf and he has never whispered an ounce of a racist comment or anything that would be offensive in any manner. This is totally an accidental slip and totally overblown.

As for you that want to get rid of him, the Association would take a hit by not having the Duece around.

I hope you guys can support Duesler and his family this. He doesn't deserve the crap he is getting.

you don't believe racism is very serious do you?

Racism can be a very serious thing. I don't believe that the media characterization of the events in question are anything more than a sensationalization and mis-characterization of an unfortunate set of events.

Not having a first hand understanding of the minutiae and sequence of events - I refuse to comment on the reality of what actually happened when, who said what to who, etc. And I also refuse to accept the "cut and paste - so I have something to sell" approach of the media. Especially when I know the character of the man being labeled and attacked as a racist - a characterization that is patently absurd.

Witnessing the messages here from a few members (no matter how many people you claim are "upset" about the relationship between Dr D and the PDGA - it's certainly not a majority) who claim to know what's best for the org, or claim to be offering sage advice to the org - I see nothing but ignorance. None of you know anything real about what is going on - your impatience and sarcasm do nothing but feed the fire of perpetuation. Helping sell the race card by doing so.

Well done.

And again, the irony that these folks renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about, is overwhelming.

At least we're out playing in 15-20 sanctioned tourneys a year while you live the life of small importance as a moderator. Enjoy that challenging Ice Bowl competition.

Thanks, I will!

And while I'm at it, I'll continue to actually DO something for the PDGA and to grow the sport of disc golf, such as serving as State Coordinator the last 2 years, Scoring Director for Pro Worlds the last 3 years, Scoring Director for the upcoming Vibram Open National Tour event, a tournament director, writer of articles for disc golf publications, etc.

As well as stick up for the PDGA and fight against people like yourself, who just put down the Association seemingly every chance you get.

Rhett,

How did your coworker know that Dr. Duesler is a disc golfer?

i know i care very much about racism, and perhaps even more about situations where people claim they are victims of racism when no racism exists. (i'm NOT referring to anyone specifically, as i don't have time to review all the posts and all the media quotes to see who said what).

both are cosmically harmful.

I support Vegan.

I think something should be done immediately to show PDGA members we care. I mean look we do dont we? People make poor decisions all the time, the reality is they have to suffer through them. Racism is a serious offence and needs to be treated as so. If you willing to take the money from the camp, I am sure the # of campers was discussed. Backtracking and talking about a safety issue is wrong. Any excuse for actions like telling kids they cant swim is wrong. Hire more lifeguards with the money they paid, dont turn them away and give them their money back. Reporters are not needed to make this club sound racist, or their president.

The greatest irony I see around here is the folks who renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about.

I renew every year, and hardly complain. I also promote the sport, TD, talk about it all the time, etc.

I do complain we people of power within an organization I care about (work, PDGA, Local Clubs, College) make stupid decisions and are stood behind. This is not right. He is wrong for what he did. If 65 people prepaid their entry to a tournament/pool/whatever, I would plan on their attendance and let them have a good time.

People that complain are often trying to help in an analytical way (by looking at facts and pointing out errors). It helps when it is constructive.

Rhett,

How did your coworker know that Dr. Duesler is a disc golfer?

The article he sent me the link to had that info in it.

Rhett,

How did your coworker know that Dr. Duesler is a disc golfer?

More interesting, how would a co-worker associate disc golfers with racism enough to make such a remark?

As for you that want to get rid of him, the Association would take a hit by not having the Duece around.




Hardly McCoy. The real Deuce could do a better job avoiding bad publicity.

http://img2.allposters.com/images/TRND/FP3245.jpg


I have to renew my pDGA membership if I want to play Worlds or an NT. My membership is involuntary.

So when are we going to talk about


http://bp0.blogger.com/_orkXxp0bhEA/SI5x-1wJX1I/AAAAAAAAH1Q/Hx-H4bhkzLE/s400/080728-paranoia-cover-obama-wright.jpg


or maybe we could talk about


http://www.therightperspective.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/sotomayor_wise_latina-300x222.jpg

right or wrong, have you all come to terms with how powerful perception is?

it is not hard to find his name with the words racism and pdga in seconds

Google is a powerful tool that can greatly help or harm any business, regardless if our organization realizes this or not

it is not hard to find his name with the words racism and pdga in seconds

Google is a powerful tool that can greatly help or harm any business, regardless if our organization realizes this or not


i think this is an excellent point. if it proves too difficult to understand, and director duesler has proven too much our friend to dismiss, then maybe we should just do away with marketing and lower association fees. maybe that is what you have all been saying to begin with?

I have to renew my pDGA membership if I want to play Worlds or an NT. My membership is involuntary.


So your participation in these events is not voluntary? Man - such a tough life when there are evil forces out there MAKING you play DG :)

here's a discussion forum with a number of interesting posts. i looked thru them to see if any mention was made of disc golf or the pdga and i didn't spot any of those references.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20090716_Stu_Bykofsky__Valley_Club_scandal_conjure s_up_the_Three_Stooges.html?viewAll=Y&text=#comments

right or wrong, have you all come to terms with how powerful perception is?

Everything I've observed is that perception is only powerful in a small number of people with anti-PDGA agendas.

Everyone else realizes that no one truly knows the facts of the incident; the marketing director is innocent until proven guilty; it is highly debatable at best, and outright laughable at worst, to project that this incident will have ANY effect on his official capacity to market the PDGA; it is a knee-jerk reaction and entirely premature to project whether this will have any action whatsoever to reduce his effectiveness at performing the actions necessary of his Marketing Director position; and anyone intimating that JD should not be associated with PDGA administration based on these overwhelming biased, libelous, or outright erroneous media reports should get some common sense.

i guess you are right. after all, you would actually have to have been getting major sponsors and presenting the sport to the masses in order to alienate them or have them notice. you are obviously joking, but you present your arguments so seriously that it is difficult to tell, but i think i get it now. please do your best to prove this inaccurate. afterward, please assume that i am anti-association. meanwhile, my perception is that the marketing and communications director responsible for representing the sport has shown questionable ability to do so effectively. why do you hate the pdga, jeff?

so i guess because my opinion on what is good/bad for the organization is different from yours, i am automatically anti-association?

Everything I've observed is that perception is only powerful in a small number of people with anti-PDGA agendas.

Everyone else realizes that no one truly knows the facts of the incident; the marketing director is innocent until proven guilty; it is highly debatable at best, and outright laughable at worst, to project that this incident will have ANY effect on his official capacity to market the PDGA; it is a knee-jerk reaction and entirely premature to project whether this will have any action whatsoever to reduce his effectiveness at performing the actions necessary of his Marketing Director position; and anyone intimating that JD should not be associated with PDGA administration based on these overwhelming biased, libelous, or outright erroneous media reports should get some common sense.

Ugh. Ridiculous. I second whatever it is that Terry Miller said- good thing no one takes the PDGA seriously.

For real, PGA would have booted a guy in that position within an hour of that quote receiving even local media attention.

I am trying to keep my tone logical and factual, but for real. To the current PDGA administration- Grow some balls. Weak.

so i guess because my opinion on what is good/bad for the organization is different from yours, i am automatically anti-association?

mmm... kool-aid!

Ugh. Ridiculous. I second whatever it is that Terry Miller said- good thing no one takes the PDGA seriously.

For real, PGA would have booted a guy in that position within an hour of that quote receiving even local media attention.

I am trying to keep my tone logical and factual, but for real. To the current PDGA administration- Grow some balls. Weak.Actually, I think anyone who has actually paid attention to the PGA over the years would have to admit that professional golf has been rife with racism and sexism since its inception. I really can't see the PGA getting their panties in a bunch over something this innocuous.

Suppose Kelsey were to call me up and say, "I've got a ride to Kalamazoo on Saturday morning. Meet me at Coldbrook for a round at 9:00." And I show up expecting some quiet father-daughter time where we can discuss DesCartes and Plato and the Chicago School of Economics and stuff, and it turns out she's also invited Michael Frame, Mike Robinson, Devine Meyers, Carla Gomez, Juan Lopez, Elliot Fu, Serge Correa and Michael Jordan. And since Michael Jordan says he's definately in, everyone else shows up. It's going to change the complexion of my Saturday morning round. It has nothing to do with the fact that she invited a guy who might have the complexion of someone with Chinese ancestors. I just wasn't expecting a tensome.

Unless you're swimming in this pool

http://lh5.ggpht.com/nnamik22/SD5Q56DXKkI/AAAAAAAAByg/pqldQfNMabo/FireShot%20capture%20%2333%20-%20%27World%27s%20Largest%20Swimming%20Pool%20--%20off%20the%20coast%20of%20Chile%27%20-%20www_victory-cruises_com_pool_html_thumb%5B1%5D.jpg?imgmax=800 (http://lh5.ggpht.com/nnamik22/SD5Q46DXKjI/AAAAAAAAByY/fY5x1jK_ioE/s1600-h/FireShot%20capture%20%2333%20-%20%27World%27s%20Largest%20Swimming%20Pool%20--%20off%20the%20coast%20of%20Chile%27%20-%20www_victory-cruises_com_pool_html%5B3%5D.jpg)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/nnamik22/SD5Q9aDXKoI/AAAAAAAABzA/ZrDKG6yu_Nw/FireShot%20capture%20%2335%20-%20%27World%27s%20Largest%20Swimming%20Pool%20--%20off%20the%20coast%20of%20Chile%27%20-%20www_victory-cruises_com_pool_html_thumb%5B1%5D.jpg?imgmax=800 (http://lh3.ggpht.com/nnamik22/SD5Q8aDXKnI/AAAAAAAABy4/61kudK8HXqc/s1600-h/FireShot%20capture%20%2335%20-%20%27World%27s%20Largest%20Swimming%20Pool%20--%20off%20the%20coast%20of%20Chile%27%20-%20www_victory-cruises_com_pool_html%5B3%5D.jpg)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/nnamik22/SD5Q1qDXKeI/AAAAAAAABxw/Lb3FeR_7vok/FireShot%20capture%20%2331%20-%20%27World%27s%20Largest%20Swimming%20Pool%20--%20off%20the%20coast%20of%20Chile%27%20-%20www_victory-cruises_com_pool_html_thumb%5B3%5D.jpg?imgmax=800 (http://lh4.ggpht.com/nnamik22/SD5Q0qDXKdI/AAAAAAAABxo/_DAdOYAgAlQ/s1600-h/FireShot%20capture%20%2331%20-%20%27World%27s%20Largest%20Swimming%20Pool%20--%20off%20the%20coast%20of%20Chile%27%20-%20www_victory-cruises_com_pool_html%5B5%5D.jpg)

adding 65 kids is going to change the complexion of the pool.

ok, so if nothing else, can we all agree to give fair warning before lining up a tensome that includes a dad and his daughter?


bruce, are you insinuating the director's lack of foresight when negotiating the initial contract is an even larger issue?

will the PDGA take an official stance on this matter one way or another? If there is unanimous support for our marketing director why not put an official statement up on the homepage, unless that would be a conflict of interest?

The PDGA already has an official stance on this issue on our homepage.

It say our Marketing Director is Dr John Duesler.

That is the PDGA position.

so i guess because my opinion on what is good/bad for the organization is different from yours, i am automatically anti-association?

Nope. It's when the opinion presented comes off as far, far less than constructive constructive (which is welcomed here) and/or typically so often comes from the same small group of folks that they seemingly have an anti-PDGA agenda.

so i guess because my opinion on what is good/bad for the organization is different from yours, i am automatically anti-association?
Nope. It's when the opinion presented comes off as far, far less than constructive constructive (which is welcomed here) and/or typically so often comes from the same small group of folks that they seemingly have an anti-PDGA agenda.
So, by the use of the bolded compound conjunction above, you state that even if an opinion is "constructive constructive" (?), if it "typically so often" (?) comes from one of these LaGrassa-defined malcontents, it makes the expresser of that opinion "automatically anti-association". Therefore, any criticism or opinion expressed by any member of this elite group (I hope my resume is sparkly enough to qualify) is to be discounted?!?!?

That, yinz, is hysterically fallacious.

(I hope my resume is sparkly enough to qualify)

You tell me, Ray.

Do you do anything to support the PDGA and/or the growth of the sport of disc golf? Do you ever have anything positive to say about the PDGA on this message board? Do you present negative criticism in a constructive manner? Are you not the one who started this thread (and the resulting witch hunt which followed against our Marketing Director?)

Actually, why don't we just cut to the chase and ask you outright: do you have an anti-PDGA agenda? If so, why do you renew each year?

Actually, why don't we just cut to the chase and ask you outright: do you have an anti-PDGA agenda?
Are you too dense to see that it makes no difference? If the carefully constructed & cordially communicated opinions about the PDGA (& its actions) of a person with an anti-PDGA agenda are to be discounted, are also the opinions about race relations of a person with an anti-racism agenda to be discounted? How about the opinions about child pornography of a person with an anti-child pornography agenda?

The fact that you are turgid for all things PDGA doesn't lead to the conclusion that the opinions of those who are limp (or even half-mast) are to be dismissed as the ravings of malcontents.

Anti-PDGA?

Interesting...

Here is what I saw on ESPN and its various channels within the last couple of days... poker, darts, bowling, lacrosse (pretty cool by the way), cheerleading, strongest man competitions, cliff diving, cave-diving, funny car racing, X-Games Reruns, men's volleyball and a Pacific Coast League Triple-A homerun contest...

You know what I didn't see? I didn’t see Disc Golf.

I get to see "complexion" when talking about minority children and "It's in the Air" when promoting disc golf which unfortunately has a reputation for the consumption of illegal drugs during play...

Sayin' we deserve better makes us anti-PDGA?

Actually it says we have aspirations for the organization that are better than it has set for itself.

A "Witch Hunt" could be seen as a derogatory term

just saying, we should watch our wording due to the recent events

You tell me, Ray.

Do you do anything to support the PDGA and/or the growth of the sport of disc golf? Do you ever have anything positive to say about the PDGA on this message board? Do you present negative criticism in a constructive manner? Are you not the one who started this thread (and the resulting witch hunt which followed against our Marketing Director?)

Actually, why don't we just cut to the chase and ask you outright: do you have an anti-PDGA agenda? If so, why do you renew each year?

would installing a course, repeatedly sponsoring the entire women's field at several events, donating professional services repeatedly for events, etc,etc constitute working for the betterment of dg? despite his poor taste in food the vegan has, and continues to do, all of these. not everyone is as anxious to toot their own flute as some people.

it's the defenders of the faith who cry foul at every criticism of the ORG and it's policies who drive some folks to their "anti-pdga agendas" as you put it.

does being anti-Democrat make a Republican anti-American?

does being anti- Bud Selig make someone anti-baseball?


i personally find your classification of this whole thing as a "witch hunt" to be inappropriate. not a single individual here has impugned john duesler in any way other than to say his choice of words was poor, which is true by his own admission. whether or not he can remain an effective marketing advocate for the ORG is a legitimate question to which i do not claim to know the answer, but a legitimate question nonetheless.

(just kidding about the food thing, before some clown takes that as a personal attack)

(just kidding about the food thing, before some clown takes that as a personal attack)
http://www.tripledisc.com/preview/msdgc/sadclown.jpg
Feel free to ignore the poor clown's plight, Jeff, if you identify him as anti-PDGA rabble.

Do you ever have anything positive to say about the PDGA on this message board?

To the best of my knowledge no Association official has ever killed anyone.

To the best of my knowledge no Association official has ever killed anyone.I think this is not true. One or more current or past board members are veterans who saw combat. I seem to recall that in a heated debate out here some time ago, one of the parties felt threatenned by a current or past board member mentioning his lethal combat experience. And you were posting on the thread, or active on the board during that time. The best of your knowledge would remember that, if I am not confabulating.

Clearly a golfer from THIS very message board had to go out to that message board and make a derogatory comment and post information about both disc golf and Duesler (just to prove a self-serving, yet useless point). It has become obvious that some people would like to see this drag out versus letting it slip away into the nothingness and nonsense that it really is.

That's pretty tough of "Reggie" to go out and do that. I know you are on this board, reading, trolling, or doing whatever else, "Reggie". You sure are a stand up person whoever you might be. Maybe we should all take lessons in PR from you since you are so clever and even post blatant lies in the process.

Terry (I don't need an alias for this board because I'm not too cowardly to post my real name) Miller

here's a discussion forum with a number of interesting posts. i looked thru them to see if any mention was made of disc golf or the pdga and i didn't spot any of those references.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/20090716_Stu_Bykofsky__Valley_Club_scandal_conjure s_up_the_Three_Stooges.html?viewAll=Y&text=#comments

It's interesting this whole idea of "Anti-PDGA". Whether you classify yourself or someone else in this category seems to depend on your overall impressions of the fees of the organization versus the benefits it provides.

If you find yourself feeling 'anti' you have concluded that you pay more than what you're getting. Or maybe you are frustrated with the potential you envision, but the opinions of the people in power prevent proper improvement in the sport. If you find yourself feeling 'pro' PDGA then you are satisfied with the benefits you reap from membership. I suppose it comes down to what is important to your own agenda.

For myself, here are a list of the pro-PDGA feelings I have: excellent stat-keeping, personal ratings, world rankings, discussion forum, central calendar, universal rules, strong tournament format, hard-working TDs, feeling of unity amongst members, necessary to maintain sponsorship and the long-term potential for money, fame and respect.

Anti-PDGA: payout policies promoting dropout over growth, inflexible division options, outside charity involvement, yearly membership too high, TDs not getting paid (some of) the money that goes per player per event to PDGA, non-member C/B-tier $10 fees, lack of media attention, lack of outside sponsor support, failure to provide cashless pre-reg for small divisions for pre-planning purposes, Worlds during a full work-week and unwillingness to fully disclose associations earnings and expenditures.....which leads us to.....

Duesler. This debate is whether HE himself is anti or pro PDGA. Many members feel his actions will solidly put himself anti-PDGA by becoming detrimental rather than instrumental to business development efforts. Other members feel he is solidly pro-PDGA interests by having been a giant asset in the past, and they feel he will continue to perform his job with the same success in the future.

In order to better determine his position as pro or anti PDGA then perhaps we could see a list of all the marketing and PR accomplishments including salary and expenditures of the last 4 years vs. impact on the sport? Then include goals and measureable quotas for the next 4 years? Perhaps then members could stop speculation and make informed decisions about their stances on the PDGA and it's choice for marketing director.

Clearly a golfer from THIS very message board had to go out to that message board and make a derogatory comment and post information about both disc golf and Duesler (just to prove a self-serving, yet useless point). It has become obvious that some people would like to see this drag out versus letting it slip away into the nothingness and nonsense that it really is.

That's pretty tough of "Reggie" to go out and do that. I know you are on this board, reading, trolling, or doing whatever else, "Reggie". You sure are a stand up person whoever you might be. Maybe we should all take lessons in PR from you since you are so clever and even post blatant lies in the process.

Terry (I don't need an alias for this board because I'm not too cowardly to post my real name) Miller

paranoia anyone?

It's interesting this whole idea of "Anti-PDGA". Whether you classify yourself or someone else in this category seems to depend on your overall impressions of the fees of the organization versus the benefits it provides.

If you find yourself feeling 'anti' you have concluded that you pay more than what you're getting. Or maybe you are frustrated with the potential you envision, but the opinions of the people in power prevent proper improvement in the sport. If you find yourself feeling 'pro' PDGA then you are satisfied with the benefits you reap from membership. I suppose it comes down to what is important to your own agenda.

For myself, here are a list of the pro-PDGA feelings I have: excellent stat-keeping, personal ratings, world rankings, discussion forum, central calendar, universal rules, strong tournament format, hard-working TDs, feeling of unity amongst members, necessary to maintain sponsorship and the long-term potential for money, fame and respect.

Anti-PDGA: payout policies promoting dropout over growth, inflexible division options, outside charity involvement, yearly membership too high, TDs not getting paid (some of) the money that goes per player per event to PDGA, non-member C/B-tier $10 fees, lack of media attention, lack of outside sponsor support, failure to provide cashless pre-reg for small divisions for pre-planning purposes, Worlds during a full work-week and unwillingness to fully disclose associations earnings and expenditures.....which leads us to.....

Duesler. This debate is whether HE himself is anti or pro PDGA. Many members feel his actions will solidly put himself anti-PDGA by becoming detrimental rather than instrumental to business development efforts. Other members feel he is solidly pro-PDGA interests by having been a giant asset in the past, and they feel he will continue to perform his job with the same success in the future.

In order to better determine his position as pro or anti PDGA then perhaps we could see a list of all the marketing and PR accomplishments including salary and expenditures of the last 4 years vs. impact on the sport? Then include goals and measureable quotas for the next 4 years? Perhaps then members could stop speculation and make informed decisions about their stances on the PDGA and it's choice for marketing director.

D***!!!! Why didn't you run for the Board?

Either that or I'm just too clever to figure out that this 'Reggie' person has posted the SAME THING in multiple online comment sections across a handful of different online articles.

Unlike most of the lurkers and trolls on this board, at least I do a little research and have some facts before merely speculating and making up complete garbage just so it fits my agenda.

paranoia anyone?

you seem to know an awful lot about this reggie fellow terry, im just saying......

I do a little research and have some facts before merely speculating and making up complete garbage just so it fits my agenda.

terry, clearly your research methods are impeccable. i am curious if you employ similar techniques when determining tournament payouts?

Let's recap:

- This useless thread gets started
- Some rip apart and shred JD for what they think are the facts
- Some stand up for JD for who he is and ask to stop a witch hunt
- The truth starts to surface about JD and the rest of the story
- People switch their focus to ripping on posters for things unrelated to the initial thread

I'm sorry but did I just sum up this entire message board?

Hey there Gregory, I'm all ears if you'd like to elaborate about my tournament payout methods. I use all PDGA tables when figuring out payouts. Or are you one of those that has something against me because of "something" you might have heard "somewhere" along the lines about "something" regarding Am Worlds errr "something" like that? If you are one of those, all payout questions should be directed to the PDGA since they determine all Worlds payouts. Whoops, is that too much truth and reality for you?

Terry

terry, clearly your research methods are impeccable. i am curious if you employ similar techniques when determining tournament payouts?

"something" like that.

Let's recap:

- This useless thread gets started
- Some rip apart and shred JD for what they think are the facts
- Some stand up for JD for who he is and ask to stop a witch hunt
- The truth starts to surface about JD and the rest of the story
- People switch their focus to ripping on posters for things unrelated to the initial thread


No. That is not an accurate recap. The last point is accurate.

Is this thread useless because you do not think that the issue should have been brought up? Or because you don't like the way that your friend was portrayed in the media? It seems obvious to me that this is an issue that needs to be addressed by the PDGA.

Rip apart/shred- I don't think anyone (UPM/Hawk excluded for obvious reasons) has insulted the man. I do think that several posters expressed their concern as to whether he is competent, and wonder how recent events will affect how he does his job for the PDGA in the future. Do you not think that these are valid concerns?

What truths or facts are starting to surface? What has changed since the story broke?

I do think that several posters expressed their concern as to whether he is competent, and wonder how recent events will affect how he does his job for the PDGA in the future.

obviously this is a witch hunt dspro

and please unclemercy it all depends on what the players pack is valued at, some might say 5 cents, some might say 50 dollars no need to start a witch hunt here

and please unclemercy it all depends on what the players pack is valued at, some might say 5 cents, some might say 50 dollars no need to start a witch hunt here

I suggest you watch your tone, Jorts

If people feel it was necessary to bring up this topic, I'm fine with that. My stance, like a few others on here, is consistent in that we don't think John is a racist nor does this situation demand his resignation as the marketing director. To answer you directly, I also don't like how my friend has been portrayed in the media either.

It is obvious to me that the PDGA needs to address this issue and it is also obvious to me that they ALREADY have but most posters can't accept it. They posted an initial 'stance' at the beginning of this thread and have not removed JD of his position. Continually calling for action seems somewhat redundant at this point. They have acted and just because the calls for his resignation have not been answered in your favor doesn't mean the org isn't listening, it just means it hasn't gone in that direction. Sometimes those who cry the loudest don't always get what they want.

My question is when will this no longer be 'post-worthy' to everyone? What exactly needs to happen before this fades away? John's resignation? The day care sues and wins hundreds of thousands dollars (which is what they conveniently owe in back taxes)? www.cnn.com posts a new story saying, "Duesler and swim club really not racist - we just over sensationalized a story which was a big misunderstanding"? Duesler gets a million dollar sponsor for the PDGA? In all seriousness, I'm curious to know what steps need to be taken for this not to be worth discussing anymore.

Terry

Hijacking this thread to insinuate or attack me for running an Am Worlds (of which the PDGA actually oversees and runs but locals are the figure heads) doesn't really help this situation either.


No. That is not an accurate recap. The last point is accurate.

Is this thread useless because you do not think that the issue should have been brought up? Or because you don't like the way that your friend was portrayed in the media? It seems obvious to me that this is an issue that needs to be addressed by the PDGA.

Rip apart/shred- I don't think anyone (UPM/Hawk excluded for obvious reasons) has insulted the man. I do think that several posters expressed their concern as to whether he is competent, and wonder how recent events will affect how he does his job for the PDGA in the future. Do you not think that these are valid concerns?

What truths or facts are starting to surface? What has changed since the story broke?

i do look good in jorts, thank you sarahD

They posted an initial 'stance' at the beginning of this thread and have not removed JD of his position.

im sure anyone outside the organization looking for our organizations stance on the issue would have no problem finding it as well

but i guess that would not fall under PR/Marketing......

Here's something I was thinking about over the weekend.

Back in March, President Obama made a controversial remark about Special Olympians (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=7129997&page=1) on the Tonight show. The incident made national press for a few days, but there was no one questioning whether Obama is competent, or wondering how this incident would affect his abilities to perform his job in the future.

Did anyone within the U.S. reassess our "personnel & strategy," because our President is saying such foolish things in the media, and on live television? Did anyone call for his impeachment or suggest he step down? I mean, c'mon, this is a politician, who by nature are supposed to be bonafide experts in marketing and communications, arguably even moreso than even marketing directors.

And yet, here we are in July, and no one is talking about this Obama incident. This was the president of the free world, appearing in his official capacity as President, making the offensive statement on a nationally broadcasted television show. As opposed to the situation where John Duesler, not serving in any way, shape or form in his official capacity as Marketing Director of the PDGA, being blamed for the supposed overheard comments by parents of a private swim club, and the Board Of Directors there who outvoted John to revoke the youth group's invitation to the pool. And in the end, it was revealed that this decision was based entirely on safety concerns and not being able to properly manage an overwhelming number of children who couldn't swim being in the pool at the same time.

This railroading of our Marketing Director needs to end. There is no evidence that this incident will have ANY effect on his official capacity to market the PDGA. It is a knee-jerk reaction and purely unfounded conjecture as to whether this incident will have any action whatsoever to reduce his effectiveness at performing the actions necessary of his Marketing Director position.

When will people give it up? For those that simply love to complain, isn't there something else you can find to complain about?

The greatest irony I see around here is the folks who renew with the PDGA every year, then seemingly spend as much time as possible complaining about every single thing they can complain about.



Those people may ACTUALLY play events and need to be members to enter certain tier level events................

My $75 only partially goes to support the PDGA and I wish it would do more to support the sport instead. Of course this issue isn't a good one for the PDGA but I think there does need to be an evaluation of his job the past 4 years and an assessment of whether the org needs to find a new person to be in charge of marketing or not.

Hell I would do it if that meant speaking to potential supporters while touring at the same time but at this time I still need my PHD. If it helps my minor is in marketing and I realize you can sell the biggest piece of garbage to millions of people with successful marketing (see sham-wow)

I am not sure how long the term for the Marketing director is (do they have one?) but even without this issue coming up it seems that it may be time to change certain marketing techniques used by our org.

Alright, JD's marketing accomplishments:

1. Well, I know about the Microtel discount for members of 10 or 15%. (however, when I called and said i was owner of the company Ivy Garden Massage, they gave me that same discount without verification or hesitatation; when I called the PDGA and asked them why the discount was the same for the general public, they said it was more of a tracking method to see how much we all stayed in Microtels and that if we could generate enough biz for Microtel, they would consider deeper discounts or sponsorship in the future. I made that call in 2006).

2. Free Microtel rooms for Barry (2006 only??)

3. Host of the 2008 Worlds video, similar to what unpaid Joe Wander, TGill (?) and others do.

That's all I know for now. I know that individual unpaid TD's have had some wonderful successes generating outside sponsorship: Steve and Jason getting Vibram, Michigan's own 101 getting B-Line Pizza, and I think the Twisted Flyers landed a good sponsor....?
But like I said, I haven't been able to find a sheet of accomplishments and haven't researched further since 2006, so I don't really know and would like to.

For my own interests, I would like the marketing dept to focus on retaining and growing the Pro Women's field by standardizing payouts based NOT on attendence. What I mean is that even if few or no women show up to an event, the ones that show know approximately how much they will be compensated for travel.

Meaning: For Majors, they always pay the top 10 regardless of attendence. NT's top 8. A-tiers top 5, B-tiers top 3, C-tiers always 2. That way, even if pre-reg is empty but you make the leap of faith and attend an event, it is never a frustrating experience. Attendence will increase and to me, that is excellent marketing.

asking questions will be seen as a witch hunt sarah D, shame on you

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/20/article-0-05C78427000005DC-513_634x415.jpg

Supply your own punch line.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/20/article-0-05c78427000005dc-513_634x415.jpg

supply your own punch line.


"no peeing in the pool!!!"

I hope these kids are not too emotionally distressed to enjoy their latest vacation:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Movie-Producer-Sending-Swim-Club-Kids-to-Disney-World.html

Just to clarify - they are too emotional traumatized and distressed to return to "scene of the crime" so to speak but they are not too distressed to hop on a plane and travel nearly 1000 miles from Philly to Orlando. Regardless - great news for these kids!

I hope Alethea Wright and Creative Steps doesn't have to cover the taxes on this gift given to them because we already know that might be a problem. Then again, I'm sure none of this alleged racism has anything to do with money or financial gains for their organization, right?

As for the other comments, I think Sarah's long term goals and agenda should be an entirely separate topic for discussion. Her views, thoughts, and opinions are very specific to a tiny group and I think they are beyond the scope of a single marketing director position. Heck, those things haven't been successfully tackled in the last 30 years so let's be fair to ANY person that might be in the marketing role and say that is no small undertaking. One thing that I love about the PDGA is that if Sarah were to devise, construct, statistically prove, and effectively promote and pitch her plan to the BOD, I bet the PDGA would consider implementing it (especially if she were to take the lead with it).

I'll also add personally that we've seen thousands of dollars thrown at the women's divisions in the past 15 years and that hasn't helped the field sizes grow in numbers so I'm not sure more money is the answer but that's just my opinion. I'm all for seeing the women's field sizes increase. Special events like the USWDGC and the Texas Women's event are steps in the right direction. At at tournament director meeting about 5 years ago someone finally stated, "The 18 guys sitting in this room haven't been successful at getting more women to events so maybe the women need to get more women to events." I think the likes of Sarah D, Val, Juliana, and Des are the best way to help get that jump started!

Also - asking questions doesn't necessarily constitute a witch hunt. When I think of a 'witch hunt', I think more along the lines of this definition: "An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views."

terry, i'm confused by your post, but not surprised. it's all too much, really.


I hope these kids are not too emotionally distressed to enjoy their latest vacation:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Movie-Producer-Sending-Swim-Club-Kids-to-Disney-World.html

Just to clarify - they are too emotional traumatized and distressed to return to "scene of the crime" so to speak but they are not too distressed to hop on a plane and travel nearly 1000 miles from Philly to Orlando. Regardless - great news for these kids!


have the same students heard people in orlando making racial remarks? is racism tolerable if the people we are offending are behind on their taxes? does this recent news story reassure you that this non-issue will soon just disappear? can we all blindly trust that this will not reflect poorly on the sport's official association?

anyway, your thoughts and definitions are very entertaining. please post more.

I hope these kids are not too emotionally distressed to enjoy their latest vacation:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Movie-Producer-Sending-Swim-Club-Kids-to-Disney-World.html

Just to clarify - they are too emotional traumatized and distressed to return to "scene of the crime" so to speak but they are not too distressed to hop on a plane and travel nearly 1000 miles from Philly to Orlando. Regardless - great news for these kids!

I hope Alethea Wright and Creative Steps doesn't have to cover the taxes on this gift given to them because we already know that might be a problem. Then again, I'm sure none of this alleged racism has anything to do with money or financial gains for their organization, right?


Your sarcastic attitude does not come across well.

that was sarcasm, for shame terry

Really, I believe this new story speaks for itself. Aren't we going on 'perception' here anyway?

We don't care about reality do we? "You see what I just did there?" I think a very wise man once said that.

Daemon - you are right - my sarcasm probably isn't necessary (and it shall be curbed). I believe more truths to this story will continue to unravel and those will hold more water than whatever I can spew on here. JD's name will never be completely clear of this as he made a poor word choice. I still know he is not a racist and that is good enough for me.

With that being said, it's time for me to put this thread to rest until something significant surfaces. Otherwise, I'm just going to let my emotions run wild and that will not be productive on this message board.

Terry

this little girl and her family do not believe you...

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JD's name will never be completely clear of this as he made a poor word choice.

i think this is why some of us have the problem with the position he holds, whether right or wrong is name will probably never be completely clear

it is much easier for people to find his name tied to racism then it is for them to find the good work he has accomplished for our organization. Unfortunately his mistake was a bad one when it comes to PR/Marketing, and i'm sure he would be the first to admit it.

JD's name will never be completely clear of this
Isn't that reason enough to at least discuss his suitability as the Director of Marketing & Communications of this org, the "face" of the PDGA to sponsors & the media?

clearly not ray, the concept of bad marketing is ok if your a nice guy

I'm not convinced that a month or a few months or a year from now that sponsors or media associated with the PDGA will remember, care, or even know about the story of the actions of a private swim club, whose president also happened to be involved with another organization. And those that are so sure about it now are doing so based on conjecture and the knee-jerk short term reaction. Did any of you even remember Obama's Special Olympics remark from March until I brought it up again? Didn't think so. And he is our country's president.

Our Marketing Director's name is already cleared, with the exception of a few chronic complainers.

i guess it really is always sunny in philadelphia. when you make such definitive statements, are you speaking on behalf of the association, jeff?


based on your tone, that is my perception. also, unless you are a person or group that has a newfound interest in being involved in the betterment of the sport, like someone who might be approached by the marketing and communications director would be, for instance, no one is really interested in whether or not you are convinced about anything. i'm not convinced this has anything to do with you.

Alright, JD's marketing accomplishments:

1. Well, I know about the Microtel discount for members of 10 or 15%. (however, when I called and said i was owner of the company Ivy Garden Massage, they gave me that same discount without verification or hesitatation; when I called the PDGA and asked them why the discount was the same for the general public, they said it was more of a tracking method to see how much we all stayed in Microtels and that if we could generate enough biz for Microtel, they would consider deeper discounts or sponsorship in the future. I made that call in 2006).

2. Free Microtel rooms for Barry (2006 only??)

3. Host of the 2008 Worlds video, similar to what unpaid Joe Wander, TGill (?) and others do.

That's all I know for now. I know that individual unpaid TD's have had some wonderful successes generating outside sponsorship: Steve and Jason getting Vibram, Michigan's own 101 getting B-Line Pizza, and I think the Twisted Flyers landed a good sponsor....?
But like I said, I haven't been able to find a sheet of accomplishments and haven't researched further since 2006, so I don't really know and would like to.



Don't forget intrusive and horribly placed ads on this website for completely unrelated items to disc golf. However, I'm sure they did bring in some money.

I would also be curious to see his brag sheet of accomplishments as Marketing Director. You did leave off the Woodchuck sponsorship for the National Tour. I'm sure there are plenty of other things he has done, but an evaluation of his accomplishments seem warranted, ignoring any recent PR issues.

I'm not convinced that a month or a few months or a year from now that sponsors or media associated with the PDGA will remember, care, or even know about the story of the actions of a private swim club, whose president also happened to be involved with another organization. And those that are so sure about it now are doing so based on conjecture and the knee-jerk short term reaction. Did any of you even remember Obama's Special Olympics remark from March until I brought it up again? Didn't think so. And he is our country's president.

Our Marketing Director's name is already cleared, with the exception of a few chronic complainers.

I've read lots of analogies on this thread. None of them share many similarities to the current situation. When Obama made that quote, he was not the spokesperson for a mostly-white group that had recently disallowed a mostly-black group from using their pool.

People make mistakes and say some offensive things all the time. You can grab any example of someone making an offensive comment to the press and later apologizing, but that is not the case. This issue is unique. There is no precedent, Jeff.