Jeff, how is Dr. Duesler's name cleared? I read where his friends stood up for him and called him a good person. That has no bearing on the fact that he has been portrayed as the president of a "whites-only" club.

Anyone who works for the Cambridge, Mass. police department should resign immediately, because the Cambridge police department is obviously racist. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/21/AR2009072101771.html)

they have a marketing/PR department for the camrbidge police?

the analogy again is a poor one

I would also like to know how is name has been cleared, Google says no

jeff, using similar logic to yours, you must hate the pdga. why do you hate the pdga, jeff?

I would be much less likely to advocate Dr. Duesler's removal/resignation if he came up to me & whispered in my ear, "I am a racist," than if he wer not truly a racist but publicly said something so ill-advised as to connect himself with racism & draw national media attention to both that connection & his connection to the org.

Anyone who works for the Cambridge, Mass. police department should resign immediately, because the Cambridge police department is obviously racist. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/21/AR2009072101771.html)

Jeff, please point out the similarities between this article and the situation we are discussing, so that I may understand your point more clearly.

Seems like the only knees getting jerked around now are on the defense side.

Can we please remove the term "knee jerk reaction" from this board? It's getting really worn out...

For my own interests, I would like the marketing dept to focus on retaining and growing the Pro Women's field by standardizing payouts based NOT on attendence. What I mean is that even if few or no women show up to an event, the ones that show know approximately how much they will be compensated for travel.

I'm sorry to be the one to break the bad news to you, Sarah, but no one wants to pay to watch you play. It's nothing personal, and I'm certainly not picking on your game. But in order to be compensated for your travel, you have to offer something that someone will pay for or pay to see.

You are in the same boat as Matt "the kid" Hall. No one wants to pay to see him play, either. People just won't pay to watch disc golf, and until the time that they do, we will all just be playing for each others entry fees. Well, if you play pro at Worlds and NTs you also are playing for some on my PDGA membership fee since the PDGA subsidizes those payouts. But in this situation, the payout will continue to be dependent on the number of people entering the event.

In order to really have an effect on the payout for pro women, you should focus on figuring out how to get more women playing pro so you can take their money. Many men have tried to figure this same thing out, but we're kinda dumb in the "figuring out women" department and we haven't made much progress there.

But the bottom line is that no one today wants to pay to watch disc golfers play. If you like playing disc golf, you should play. If you want to make money, you really should find another thing.

I'm sorry to be the one to break the bad news to you, Sarah, but no one wants to pay to watch you play. It's nothing personal, and I'm certainly not picking on your game. But in order to be compensated for your travel, you have to offer something that someone will pay for or pay to see.

You are in the same boat as Matt "the kid" Hall. No one wants to pay to see him play, either. People just won't pay to watch disc golf, and until the time that they do, we will all just be playing for each others entry fees. Well, if you play pro at Worlds and NTs you also are playing for some on my PDGA membership fee since the PDGA subsidizes those payouts. But in this situation, the payout will continue to be dependent on the number of people entering the event.

In order to really have an effect on the payout for pro women, you should focus on figuring out how to get more women playing pro so you can take their money. Many men have tried to figure this same thing out, but we're kinda dumb in the "figuring out women" department and we haven't made much progress there.

But the bottom line is that no one today wants to pay to watch disc golfers play. If you like playing disc golf, you should play. If you want to make money, you really should find another thing.

FYI- I would like to change this screen name since I lost it in a putting match a while back but it is past the change deadline and we can see our post count again so I'm not starting all over. lol

I'm sorry to be the one to break the bad news to you, Sarah, but no one wants to pay to watch you play. It's nothing personal, and I'm certainly not picking on your game. But in order to be compensated for your travel, you have to offer something that someone will pay for or pay to see.

You are in the same boat as Matt "the kid" Hall. No one wants to pay to see him play, either. People just won't pay to watch disc golf, and until the time that they do, we will all just be playing for each others entry fees. Well, if you play pro at Worlds and NTs you also are playing for some on my PDGA membership fee since the PDGA subsidizes those payouts. But in this situation, the payout will continue to be dependent on the number of people entering the event.

In order to really have an effect on the payout for pro women, you should focus on figuring out how to get more women playing pro so you can take their money. Many men have tried to figure this same thing out, but we're kinda dumb in the "figuring out women" department and we haven't made much progress there.

But the bottom line is that no one today wants to pay to watch disc golfers play. If you like playing disc golf, you should play. If you want to make money, you really should find another thing.

The PDGA may subsidize the NT (even though it is still pretty lame) but Chuck claim that is also part of why Pros have to pay $75 to be a member yet really have no advantages over an Amateur member. Also the $10 in worlds fees adds up to a good bit that could have been added to payout that could have gone into worlds as well but I'm sure that all went to pay off management costs.

I wonder how much the PDGA adds in cash per player to Worlds? That would be a stat a few people would probably like to see as I would figure when factoring volunteer time they are worth more than Title sponsors but I don't know the specific cash value they put into the event.

Anyway don't whine about your membership fees subsidizing the PDGA National tour when we are the ones who have the added cost tacked onto our renewals to help pay for Marshals and other expenditures. I would assume any amount taken from your membership is dwarfed by what many Pro members have to pay when most of them do not play many NTs with there also being some who rarely play but choose to renew.

You like to paint the worst possible picture, don't you? Now you're asking for "per player" amount added for Pro Worlds, the biggest freaking pro field of the year. Of course per player will be low for Worlds where the most players show up.

I've got some news for you, too, young professional disc golfer: Tiger Woods makes more money on endorsements than on tour event prize money. Go sell yourself to someone and make some real money!

You like to paint the worst possible picture, don't you? Now you're asking for "per player" amount added for Pro Worlds, the biggest freaking pro field of the year. Of course per player will be low for Worlds where the most players show up.

I've got some news for you, too, young professional disc golfer: Tiger Woods makes more money on endorsements than on tour event prize money. Go sell yourself to someone and make some real money!



What I am trying to get at is how much of our membership dues go to worlds? If they put in like $10 per player ($10,000) that leaves $40 for you and $65 for me in membership dues. I realize that it won't be too much per player due to the amount of players but I was talking about Pro and Am not just Pros.

Also maybe there are some people who feel that the added cash per player should be on par with other events for the same reason you feel it shouldn't be (number of players). I am not in that camp or anything I just think it would be cool to see a breakdown of added cash for NTs and Worlds comparatively.

BTW Professional Disc Golfer is not what I would claim my title to be as I can make more cash at Mickey D's than traveling playing golf. I am in it more for the competition than anything but that doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see the term Professional Disc Golfer used in a way that described someone who makes money.

This sport is a hobby but like I said that doesn't mean I wouldn't try and make it a profession if the sport were to progress to that point in the future and I don't really want to trick myself into thinking I will be a disc golfer by trade when I am older. If anything I plan on touring for a year or two when I graduate content with crummy living conditions with the high side of playing massive amounts of golf.

I think this is not true. One or more current or past board members are veterans who saw combat. I seem to recall that in a heated debate out here some time ago, one of the parties felt threatenned by a current or past board member mentioning his lethal combat experience. And you were posting on the thread, or active on the board during that time. The best of your knowledge would remember that, if I am not confabulating.

My understanding was that the aforementioned Board Member served in a non-fighting role. Maybe he's killed some space aliens though?

This thread now hits my top 20 for amusing/inane/yet still important.

You rock, no you rock, no you rock!

Lifetime goal, to never catch Matt on total posts made about helping Pro players make more money. Rhett's right, go get a sponsor!

This thread now hits my top 20 for amusing/inane/yet still important.

You rock, no you rock, no you rock!

Lifetime goal, to never catch Matt on total posts made about helping Pro players make more money. Rhett's right, go get a sponsor!


Finding sponsors...................wait isn't that the marketing directors job? I would be glad to do look for potential sponsors but I'm sure there are many other disc golfers who can do a much better job than I could at the moment. Hopefully one of those people can help out as a new marketing director...................where is a breakdown from the PDGA of sponsors brought in over the past 4 years?

Maybe it is time for a report card of the position because if the PDGA think there isn't anyone else who can do a better job that just shows they are still tangled up in the who do you know system.

Brian Graham has worked and traveled with Dr. Duesler, and thinks highly of his character.

That is the PDGA's official stance on the subject of whether or not Dr. Duesler should continue serving as our Marketing Director, as announced by the Executive Director.

In-ter-net  /ˈɪntərˌnɛt/

–noun : a vast computer network linking smaller computer networks worldwide wherein any user is magically transformed into an expert on all subject matter. Assumed personal wisdom and self-worth tend to increase exponentially on internet discussion forums.

Origin:
1990–95

I just read where Tyler Perry just paid for the ousted kids to go to Disneyworld and their water park for a few days.

What I am trying to get at is how much of our membership dues go to worlds? Last year the host club and the PDGA each took about $7,000 OUT of Worlds. To the extent that either would claim that they put money into Worlds, it was kind of a shell game. Every year the PDGA siphons thousands of dollars out of Am Worlds. Worlds is the biggest am-scam in the PDGA. That is mainly how they decide who can run it. They are always looking for someone who can run a big event and be counted on to siphon a large amount out of it.

Last year the host club and the PDGA each took about $7,000 OUT of Worlds. To the extent that either would claim that they put money into Worlds, it was kind of a shell game. Every year the PDGA siphons thousands of dollars out of Am Worlds. Worlds is the biggest am-scam in the PDGA. That is mainly how they decide who can run it. They are always looking for someone who can run a big event and be counted on to siphon a large amount out of it.

It is just the largest of many Am Scams but I must admit that my $800 in merch from 05' didn't seem like a scam at the time.........

Anyway your right they do make money at the same time form the event as well as the host club (usually) of AM worlds.

The standard amount of seed money supplied to Pro Worlds hosts has been about $6000 for at least 5 years now ($20/player). Then the PDGA typically splits any profits with the host at the end, Am or Pro Worlds. Yes, some Pro Worlds have had a small profit once the merchandise inventory at the end is sold off. A larger amount is spent on marshals, scoring and staff plus their travel expenses and some food. Some of these expenses can be offset by the deals the host cuts with the host hotel but most of this is covered by the additional pro portion of their dues. That's just for Pro Worlds. Then there's the Worlds DVD (seems to now eventually breakeven), marshal program and stipends for NTs, tour guidebook, etc. The NT Tour group has the numbers and have seen that the pros overall get at least, and likely more than, their added money's worth for their dues differential.

The standard amount of seed money supplied to Pro Worlds hosts has been about $6000 for at least 5 years now ($20/player). Then the PDGA typically splits any profits with the host at the end, Am or Pro Worlds. Yes, some Pro Worlds have had a small profit once the merchandise inventory at the end is sold off. A larger amount is spent on marshals, scoring and staff plus their travel expenses and some food. Some of these expenses can be offset by the deals the host cuts with the host hotel but most of this is covered by the additional pro portion of their dues. That's just for Pro Worlds. Then there's the Worlds DVD (seems to now eventually breakeven), marshal program and stipends for NTs, tour guidebook, etc. The NT Tour group has the numbers and have seen that the pros overall get at least, and likely more than, their added money's worth for their dues differential.

Ok 20 per player that shows up but less than $1 per player overall since we have 10,000 or so members. Also that $20 per player comes down to less than 10% of our total entry fee.


IMO $6,000 is chump change considering they put in half that into each NT.

Also I just finished watching another story on the Phili pool incident on the Bill O Show. He was discussing Tyler Perry's gesture towards the children while saying what the pool club did was embarrassing and a disgrace.

Not too good since that is reaching a lot of Prime time viewers. As was stated before perception is everything and unfortunately for the pool and its administration nobody seems to be in their corner(Excluding Brian Graham).

If you were asking about how the $25 difference between am and pro dues was being used, then there are only about 2500 pro members kicking in the extra $25. You're right that $6000 cash isn't very much in comparison to the other amounts spent by the PDGA supporting Pro Worlds. And frankly, that's probably more than should be spent. But if the PDGA didn't spend it, the Pro Worlds might not be hosted at all except for combo Worlds.

If you were asking about how the $25 difference between am and pro dues was being used, then there are only about 2500 pro members kicking in the extra $25. You're right that $6000 cash isn't very much in comparison to the other amounts spent by the PDGA supporting Pro Worlds. And frankly, that's probably more than should be spent. But if the PDGA didn't spend it, the Pro Worlds might not be hosted at all except for combo Worlds.

Sounds like a good reason to help subsidize the event using entries taken in throughout the year. Better than the "we'll take $3 and do who knows what with it".

I already pay $150 to the PDGA per year I am just asking you take $30 ($1 per event) more and make worlds a event we can actually market.

Not as exciting to watch when the stakes aren't high.

Maybe you should ask Mr. Dodge for help as he seems to run a great event from what I hear that people say they would choose over any other event besides USDGC.

Nice to see the PDGA spends 1% (OF JUST OUR DUES) on worlds and that doesn't factor in the PDGA fees which they take from each event which is another $450,000.

pDGA is more like it.

Couldn't figure out how to post it but a few Searches with different search engines all pulled up our marketing director's name and in most the 1st result was linked with the PDGA.

I read a few blogs to cheack for comment totals and most had less than 10 or so replies but this quote can from one.

"A little more journalistic digging should either confirm or deny that he is one of the 'good guys'."

I don't know if we want them digging into our Org.

Couldn't figure out how to post it but a few Searches with different search engines all pulled up our marketing director's name and in most the 1st result was linked with the PDGA.

I read a few blogs to cheack for comment totals and most had less than 10 or so replies but this quote can from one.

"A little more journalistic digging should either confirm or deny that he is one of the 'good guys'."

I don't know if we want them digging into our Org.

Why? So along with racist they can stereotype him as a hippie stoner?

Why? So along with racist they can stereotype him as a hippie stoner?

We, via all of his efforts and expertise, don't have to worry about that 'cuz he is in complete control of our image and everything is going along swimmingly... and if you think otherwise, apparently you are anti-PDGA.

There is zero chance that racism, hippie stoners, PDGA and Swimming Clubs will all be connected... we have been reassured of that by many on this board. I have been convinced... we have no Marketing concerns and what we have is all we need.

It is what we deserve to have, because it is all that we want. To want more or different for the organization is to be negative and to be a naysayer... it is all clear to me now.

I feel cleansed... and much happier now that I have succumbed to this belief.

Also I just finished watching another story on the Phili pool incident on the Bill O Show. He was discussing Tyler Perry's gesture towards the children while saying what the pool club did was embarrassing and a disgrace.

ah yes another example of this not going away,what a shock, and the fact that our leadership has no concept of google search and its positive and negative effects it has on a business

but he's a nice guy so the bad publicity is fine, it is certainly fair to the paying members that we have to put up with this

We, via all of his efforts and expertise, don't have to worry about that 'cuz he is in complete control of our image and everything is going along swimmingly... and if you think otherwise, apparently you are anti-PDGA.

There is zero chance that racism, hippie stoners, PDGA and Swimming Clubs will all be connected... we have been reassured of that by many on this board. I have been convinced... we have no Marketing concerns and what we have is all we need.

It is what we deserve to have, because it is all that we want. To want more or different for the organization is to be negative and to be a naysayer... it is all clear to me now.

I feel cleansed... and much happier now that I have succumbed to this belief.


That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Our image has been and will be that we are a bunch of hippie stoners until WE, the players change that. He controls nothing. Unless you play disc golf no one cares about disc golf. That's just the way it is right now.

I am 100% pro PDGA. Prior to 2003 there were 3 tournament directors in Illinois running PDGA events (Lewis, Wallis, Cummings). Bruce, Jon, & I built up sanctioned play in the north. Our club went from nothing to over 100 paid members, with most of them being PDGA members.
http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=37

We have 4 club members running PDGA events this year. Brakel, Comincioli, Pitner, and Krupicka. Rockford even got motivated after we've run huge tournaments out there to run 2 sanctioned events. I hosted the Bloomington/Normal event for 2 years and now they are going to run that event. We've had club members start new clubs in other areas. I've done my part promoting the PDGA and will continue to do so.

The problem with most of the message board posters is they view the PDGA as something large. It's a mom and pop shop people. We are a tiny organization run by the members. If all the hater PDGA message board posters put in half as much time promoting the game instead of whining on message boards we might get somewhere. Any time all you haters want to run for a position on the PDGA board i'll vote for you.

i don't think mom and pop shops could afford to spend what we did on a horribly designed website

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Our image has been and will be that we are a bunch of hippie stoners until WE, the players change that. He controls nothing. Unless you play disc golf no one cares about disc golf. That's just the way it is right now.

I am 100% pro PDGA. Prior to 2003 there were 3 tournament directors in Illinois running PDGA events (Lewis, Wallis, Cummings). Bruce, Jon, & I built up sanctioned play in the north. Our club went from nothing to over 100 paid members, with most of them being PDGA members.
http://discontinuum.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=37

We have 4 club members running PDGA events this year. Brakel, Comincioli, Pitner, and Krupicka. Rockford even got motivated after we've run huge tournaments out there to run 2 sanctioned events. I hosted the Bloomington/Normal event for 2 years and now they are going to run that event. We've had club members start new clubs in other areas. I've done my part promoting the PDGA and will continue to do so.

The problem with most of the message board posters is they view the PDGA as something large. It's a mom and pop shop people. We are a tiny organization run by the members. If all the hater PDGA message board posters put in half as much time promoting the game instead of whining on message boards we might get somewhere. Any time all you haters want to run for a position on the PDGA board i'll vote for you.

Brett,

I'll take you up on that... You can vote for

Jim Trotter
SDGC VP
discgolfclub.org

Odd that "hater" as a response to my comments is not an absolutely ridiculous statement... But I can see how there could be some confusion as all I was trying to say is that if it takes being happy with mediocrity to be considered pro-PDGA - then that's what I would be...

But you have opened my eyes to another avenue and one I would prefer rather than to accept things as they are.

I'd be more than happy to be your huckleberry... When nominations open up for the next board, I hope I can count on you - I would be honored if my State Coordinator was the person that enters my name in for consideration.

It might be hard to get a hold of me this afternoon after work if you want to discuss as I will be busy completing the marking of the new tee positions for the second 18 baskets at Lincoln Park that just got locked into place today... Folks interested can go to www.discgolfclub.org and check in our forums to find out more about the Lincoln Park Expansion.

While you are at the website, please stop in our Pro-Shop, please consider purchasing one of our “Gas Worthy” Super-Color Fundraiser Buzzzes

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2475/3683164132_d6b32548a5.jpg

or

pick up one of our last remaining CFR RT.66 Teebirds.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3536/3293701407_bcb929a3fa.jpg

You are so right about those people who want more from and for the PDGA - we are all anti-PDGA... none of us travel to be officials for other club's events so the locals can play, none of us run our local leagues, none of us run our local bag tag challenges, none of us hunt down 15k worth of sponsorships for their local clubs, none of us grow their memberships 400% in a year, none of us host and TD National Championships, none of us take the time to run websites and maintiain 8k worth of inventories, none of us run multiple sanctioned and unsanctioned tourneys, none of us are working directly with manufacturers in the sport as testers and consultants, none of us do poison ivy control, none of us coordinate work days for course upkeep and none of us partner with our local park districts and local government bodies... None of us.

You nailed it. The difference is you define pro-PDGA as being satisfied with mediocrity... but it appears it’s only the meaning of words that we seem to have a disagreement over...

I'd love to take you up on your offer - I'd be honored to have your vote.

You nailed it. The difference is you define pro-PDGA as being satisfied with mediocrity... but it appears it’s only the meaning of words that we seem to have a disagreement over...

well stated

Jim,

The last statement was not intended at you. It was a genearl comment. The majority of the whinters/haters on this board do nothing for the game.

I will definitely vote for you when you run during the next election.

That is the problem with the game right now. We are mediocre. We aren't cool. We don't generate revenue to business or parks. Let's just look at pro worlds next week. The majority of players aren't going to be staying at the host hotel because it's too expensive. No one will pay money to watch our best players. Players have to be held hostage by TD's to get a gallery.

The PDGA is doing every they can to take this game to the next level just like all the promoters and clubs are doing. This is a player driven sport. There has been a considerable amount of growth over the last 10 years. Our memberships and playing PDGA events supports the PDGA.

It's the same at the local level. Clubs depend on local players to pay dues, buy discs, pay local league tax etc... to raise money.

This is in general to anyone. What do you want to see the PDGA do differently to grow the game? What is the answer. What does disc golf have to offer to any business or to get this game on TV?

Interesting.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_officer

I like reading the comments especially from non disc golfers.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2009/jul/23/discgolf/

I coached basketball at a private catholic high school for 8 years. The first thing the Athletic Director said to me when he found out I played disc golf was "hey you frisbee chucking stoner. how are you today."

please describe the ways in which the people you are referring to do nothing for the game. also detail how you came to this conclusion.



i will go ahead and guess that none of the reasons are acting as communications director while making negative national news. that said, the professional disc golf association should take a stance and issue a statement. count me amongst those hoping this spotlight fades quickly, but if it doesn't, i am convinced that a public reaction, by the association, after the fact, means little, if anything.

Jim,

The last statement was not intended at you. It was a genearl comment. The majority of the whinters/haters on this board do nothing for the game.

hmmm, i assume you're lumping vegan ray, hawk, upm, dsproaviar and myself into that group, otherwise that would leave just savard and unclemercy. i'm pretty sure all of us have made at least some minute contributions although perhaps not of the depth and breadth of yourself and lagrassa as you each enumerated. (actually- if you want to play "what have i done for disc golf?" i'll be more than happy to make a condescending post listing my own accomplishments as well.)

The PDGA is doing every they can to take this game to the next level just like all the promoters and clubs are doing. This is a player driven sport. There has been a considerable amount of growth over the last 10 years. Our memberships and playing PDGA events supports the PDGA.

It's the same at the local level. Clubs depend on local players to pay dues, buy discs, pay local league tax etc... to raise money.

This is in general to anyone. What do you want to see the PDGA do differently to grow the game? What is the answer. What does disc golf have to offer to any business or to get this game on TV?

i don't want to see the pdga do anything to grow the game- i never have. all i've ever wanted out of the ORG is to oversee competitive play. this cat is, of course, long out of the bag as the ORG has moved further and further into the realm of trying to be all things to all people.

at this point i don't believe disc golf has very much to offer potential sponsors and absolutely zero to offer tv. while that may change for sponsors in the long term i doubt it will ever change for tv. certain niche sponsors like shoe companies, power bar, etc. will see a benefit but there simply isn't much here for "corporate america".

Slamball with 13 teams and an 8 team single elimination tourney to determine the "World Champs" was on ESPN in Prime Time.

Disc Golf with stars like Val, Lopez, Des and all the rest of the women could be on ESPN with no problem - I truly believe that.

Timmy Gill has shown a tremendous talent at "play by play"...

Market the women and TV will come.

4 Cameras and a 3 member broadcast team...

hear, hear! I'll be the first to volunteer for the swimsuit calendar.....

hear, hear! I'll be the first to volunteer for the swimsuit calendar.....

That really wasn't the angle I was suggesting but it works for volleyball...

I am just sayin' when you see the work that DGTV was doing and others do - the women seem like while they are being very competitive they appear to be having alot of fun... that translates well to television.

Slamball with 13 teams and an 8 team single elimination tourney to determine the "World Champs" was on ESPN in Prime Time.

Disc Golf with stars like Val, Lopez, Des and all the rest of the women could be on ESPN with no problem - I truly believe that.

Timmy Gill has shown a tremendous talent at "play by play"...

Market the women and TV will come.

4 Cameras and a 3 member broadcast team...

I recently did several searches related to "disc golf world championships" on the ESPN website and the results were like one of those new "bing" search engine commercials. Only a few of the results pertain to disc golf and they are pretty far down the result page.

ESPN tracks and posts daily top 15 and monthly top 50 "most searched terms" lists so I proposed that members of DGCReview begin searching daily for "Disc Golf" or "USDGC" to see if we could possibly make one of the lists. If disc golf ever made it to one of the lists ESPN might actually have to create or air material related to disc golf.

Really doubt that anything will come of it but I did notice that the term "golf" has moved up from #4 to #3 in their top 15 searches over the last 24 hours list.

Perhaps the "disc" term is being ignored or filtered out. It is more likely that a hundred hits a day is a drop in the bucket.

so just enter it as one word - discgolf

I just entered discgolf in the ESPN search box and it was auto corrected to disc golf. Anyway, good idea let's search.

Numerous people are searching ESPN daily for disc golf references, hope the term "disc" makes it to their August "top 25 searches list"

Timmy Gill has shown a tremendous talent at "play by play"...



where can i hear some of this? youtube? DVD? recommendations?

billy crump is really good,too. looking forward to a "lively" Vibram Open.

I am also convinced we can market our sport thru VIDEO. I look forward to the PDGA world's footage,
this is an incredible opportunity to GROW the sport. Look, we have brother/sister open champs who are making a living playing disc golf, a dream many of us aspire to. A supportive (and successful in their own right) mom and pop, seems like a brady bunch scenario to me.
How can we NOT market that successfully? Avery and Val are intelligent, smart, athletic, approachable and sincere players who set the bench mark for how a Professional should act on the course and in the media's eyes. not to mention that the event went on to sudden death, the script was written for you. Tiger Woods Wii Disc Golf isn't too bad a coattail to hold on to either.....
even though our sport is still pretty insignificant and low on sports network's radar, this is a golden opportunity for exposure. this is some exciting stuff.

i always purchase the Marshall St. DVDs as they are high quality and get BETTER each year.
Their multiple camera angles capture the entire hole. Let's get this sport on TV:

"it's on the air"

Numerous people are searching ESPN daily for disc golf references, hope the term "disc" makes it to their August "top 25 searches list"

Seems like this little campaign was a successful one!
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=mccluskey/090819

I wish the search campaign could take responsibility for that article but Steve Dodge should get all the credit.
Did my usual searches on ESPN this morning with no pertinant returns and only heard about the article when I checked the DGCR site.
Will continue my searches through August and much longer until a "disc golf" search is linked to pertinant results.

http://www.pdga.com/usdgc-on-live-internet-tv

The USDGC live on internet TV? Pretty good stuff.
Looks like our embattled PDGA marketing director is still able to be productive.

Good for him, good for all of us.

Congrats.

http://www.pdga.com/usdgc-on-live-internet-tv

The USDGC live on internet TV? Pretty good stuff.
Looks like our embattled PDGA marketing director is still able to be productive.

Good for him, good for all of us.

Congrats.
If by "being productive", you mean playing fast & loose with the truth by changing the complexion of the facts, then right on! The VO@MH has been doing live internet TV broadcasts since the dawn of time, while the good Dr. touts that the org "will make history in October as it broadcasts the sport's first Internet TV production".

If by "being productive", you mean playing fast & loose with the truth by changing the complexion of the facts, then right on! The VO@MH has been doing live internet TV broadcasts since the dawn of time, while the good Dr. touts that the org "will make history in October as it broadcasts the sport's first Internet TV production".

no worries- "first" and "historic" were just poor choices of words. i'm sure they don't change the complexion of the press release.

Live internet TV coverage of the USDGC will be a step above the past webcam coverage of the Vibram Open at Maple Hill. Thats not taking anything from Steven Dodge or the other fine folks at the Vibram Open, as their internet coverage was groundbreaking for our sport and should be recognized as such. The main difference is that this production will be a high quality internet television broadcast via a mobile satellite truck and production studio. It is a collaborative effort with many PDGA members coming together to provide multiple cameras on the course, some pre-produced content, features, live interviews, dot technology and more. It's the closest thing to live television coverage and hopefully a big step in that direction.

It's a shame that some perceive this as some sort of contest between the PDGA and the Vibram Open when nothing could be further from the truth.

Get signed up today so you don't miss out on the action.

thanks for the clarification Brian.

as for people viewing it as a contest between vibram and the ORG- i don't believe that to be the case. people are merely questioning what appears to be a poor choice of words in our marketing material- it's not "the first" so why call it that?

hopefully Billy Crump will be doing the commentary...

That's not marketing; that's purchasing. And that's what it takes to get oddball [or flatball] sports in your living room.

Over/under for amount of time it takes for the org to simply admit it was wrong to say their broadcast "makes history" & is "first", when those claims are demonstrably false = infinity. Action?

Over/under for amount of time it takes for the org to simply admit it was wrong to say their broadcast "makes history" & is "first", when those claims are demonstrably false = infinity. Any takers?



I got $5 on never. Also have $5 on Duesler staying until he wishes to leave although many players PDGA and otherwise think the ORG does a lousy job in the marketing department.

The USDGC did a live webcam on hole 1 plus dots and live online radio before Vibram and we did live commentary online with photos at PW2001 for the semis. So Vibram was simply a step beyond those who were first at various levels of coverage with the USDGC being the next "first" step.

The USDGC did a live webcam on hole 1 plus dots and live online radio before Vibram and we did live commentary online with photos at PW2001 for the semis. So Vibram was simply a step beyond those who were first at various levels of coverage with the USDGC being the next "first" step.

It's a shame that some perceive this as some sort of contest between the PDGA and the Vibram Open when nothing could be further from the truth.

Too funny.

Also, while the media efforts Chuck has listed are commendable (kudos), it doesn't change the fact that the org's assertion:
The Professional Disc Golf Association will make history in October as it broadcasts the sport's first Internet TV production live from the 2009 United States Disc Golf Championship at Winthrop University in Rock Hill, South Carolina.
is a falsehood.

Over/under on # of org apologists who try to "massage" the language in that statement & the facts refuting it to provide spurious evidence of its veracity = 5. 2 have already chimed in. Action?

I got $5 on never.
I'll take that action, with metaphysical certainty of a push.

Too funny.

Also, while the media efforts Chuck has listed are commendable (kudos), it doesn't change the fact that the org's assertion:

is a falsehood.

Over/under on # of org apologists who try to "massage" that statement & the facts refuting it to provide spurious evidence of its veracity = 5. 2 have already chimed in. Action?

got your attribution backwards above- brian was the one accusing us of perceiving it as a contest and chuck was merely telling the history correctly ...

hopefully this broadcast will be a big step forward- i wish it nothing but well.

why call it first when it simply isn't?- that is my question.

i'll take the over but it depends on the time limit.

At the risk of being labeled an apologist I'll chime in.

I think Brian's point about it being a step up as more of a TV production than has been done before qualifies it as being a first for the sport. Others may not agree and thats fine.

I think we are making great progress since most of this thread was about Dr Duesler no longer being able to be productive as marketing director. Now the PDGA has secured this live Internet TV broadcast which to me at least shows he can still be effective.

Instead of acknowledging this success for the PDGA some folks are upset because they disagree if this is actually the first or a historic event.

If choosing to look at this as a successful thing for the PDGA and ALL ITS MEMBERS makes me an apologist...well, I can live with that.

If an online "TV" presence is such a good thing in & of itself, what is the motivation for brazenly ignoring the idea's real pioneers & trumpeting it as something it isn't? Is the org attempting to build false hype for the teeming masses just slavering to see live disc golf on their iPhones? Have the show's producers been convinced to offer a discount (I wonder what this is costing us, BTW), having been snookered that they will be "making history" with "the sport's first Internet TV production"? Have the powers that be lost all touch with reality & now truly believe their own propaganda? Is it a conspiracy to write Steve Dodge out of the PDGA history books? Have I surreptitiously been transported to Bizarro World & haven't realized it yet?

I don't know which, if any, it is, but it sure makes one wonder.

I think we are making great progress since most of this thread was about Dr Duesler no longer being able to be productive as marketing director. Now the PDGA has secured this live Internet TV broadcast which to me at least shows he can still be effective.Once again, this is purchasing, not marketing. Anyone can spend the money to produce a show and put it on todocast. I look forward to watching it.

Marketing would be if so many people knew about this and so many watched that some year they could pay for it with advertising and have money left over for the players.

Friends,

I appreciate all your concern about the Internet TV broadcast of the USDGC that we will bring to our members, fans, and sponsors. I do hope you all will register and watch the broadcast to see the nature of what we are doing. And hopefully even support the production.

And I do agree that our predecessors Steve Dodge, Billy Crump, Kevin Smith's Dot team and others deserve major recognition for pushing the envelope with their Webcasting of Vibram the past two years and virtual live presentations. They did lay the foundation for what we are doing at the USDGC, and we are grateful that that. Thanks guys!

This production will be using a technology known as IPTV...this is satellite uplink technology, combined with 4-6 camera coverage, a production truck, switch, and all the elements of a genuine live television broadcast. IPTV has never been done before in disc golf, making it the first and historic. That is true, and I would not be doing my job as the PDGA Marketing Director if I didn't highlight that fact.

Bruce, yes...there are production costs associated with this project...just like there were at Vibram. But that should not diminish the significance of the marketing involved with this...we are collaborating with many of the leadership elements within disc golf, promoting our top vendors and PDGA sponsors, providing tremendous value to these sponsors, and delivering a product that our disc golf community will hopefully enjoy and want more of...sounds like marketing to me.

This production will be using a technology known as IPTV...this is satellite uplink technology, combined with 4-6 camera coverage, a production truck, switch, and all the elements of a genuine live television broadcast. IPTV has never been done before in disc golf, making it the first and historic.
When shall we expect to see the corrected press release, clarifying that this merely is the sport's first "IPTV satellite uplink broadcast" and not "the sport's first Internet TV production", as is erroneously claimed in the original?

Over/under for number of days until this happens = infinity. Action?

Over/under on # of org apologists who try to "massage" that statement & the facts refuting it to provide spurious evidence of its veracity = 5. 2 have already chimed in. Action?
We're up to 3. Still taking action.

The 2006 Disc Golf World Championships in Augusta had online webcam coverage just as the USDGC before it did. The assertion by some that the Vibram Open was first is not at all accurate. That being said, isn't it great that we all such a wonderful things to worry about?

If one has the ability to read English carefully, one will notice that the assertion is not that Vibram is first, only that the press release is false in its claim that the org "will make history in October as it broadcasts the sport's first Internet TV production". (Which, BTW, PDGADirector seems to be backhandedly admitting. I guess I'll have to start paying out those under infinity bets.) The Vibram reference is merely a piece of evidence pointing to this statements falsehood. Thank you PDGADirector, for providing yet another piece of evidence to back up my point.

When we shall expect the retraction, or at least a corrected press release?

Guys, I had to laugh. Statements like these are called "M_A_R_K_E_T_I_N_G". I see it frequently on TV ads - "first", "best","greatest", etc. Look at what was stated,

"The Professional Disc Golf Association will make history in October as it broadcasts the sport's first Internet TV production live from the 2009 United States Disc Golf Championship at Winthrop University in Rock Hill, South Carolina. "

That's all one sentence, so no matter what they do in October, it will be the first time it is done from the 2009 USDGC - get it?

And, even if you quibble about the phrase "the sport's first Internet TV production", Dr John already explained what he meant by that, with the IPTV, multiple cameras, etc. Joe Blow getting or reading the press release needs to have something to grab their attention. Again, that is m.a.r.k.e.t.i.n.g.

To paraphrase BG, if some think that this statement is such a pressing and primary issue as to make some complaint about it, then we have it pretty good.

four

"The Professional Disc Golf Association will make history in October as it broadcasts the sport's first Internet TV production live from the 2009 United States Disc Golf Championship at Winthrop University in Rock Hill, South Carolina. "

That's all one sentence, so no matter what they do in October, it will be the first time it is done from the 2009 USDGC - get it?
Very Clintonesque manipulation of the language there, #4. Leaves me with the warm, full feeling of having had a cigar brusquely inserted into my . . .

"get it?"

guess not...

"get it?"

guess not...
Oh, I get it, all right. In fact, I predicted it about a dozen posts above:
Over/under on # of org apologists who try to "massage" the language in that statement & the facts refuting it to provide spurious evidence of its veracity = 5.

Live internet TV coverage of the USDGC will be a step above the past webcam coverage of the Vibram Open at Maple Hill.

i'm sure that was necessary. it would have been a lot more difficult to just describe what was in store, instead.

It's a shame that some perceive this as some sort of contest between the PDGA and the Vibram Open when nothing could be further from the truth.

i missed the contest announcement, but you are clearly the winner. i mean, i just read where you already declared yourself a step above.

Get signed up today so you don't miss out on the action.

i tried to sign up before you demanded it this afternoon, but that website is hot garbage and the link that was sent out in the member email failed.

regardless,

That being said, isn't it great that we all such a wonderful things to worry about?

yes, such a wonderful. you are truly an inspiration to the entire organization.

When shall we expect to see the corrected press release, clarifying that this merely is the sport's first "IPTV satellite uplink broadcast" and not "the sport's first Internet TV production", as is erroneously claimed in the original?

Over/under for number of days until this happens = infinity. Action?

Jeez get over it.
Can't you find anything good in what is being done. You ALWAYS find the negative in everything that the PDGA does.
I certainly hope the sponsors don't read your post or we will lose what little progress we have made.
I don't know you but from the tone of most of your post I would expect that I would not enjoy knowing you.
I truely do not understand what your motivation is for all the negative post but I suspect that you are a very unhappy person trying to make everyone else unhappy with you.
Try going outside and telling the world how unhappy you are because you have gotten your point across here.

Jeez get over it.
Can't you find anything good in what is being done. You ALWAYS find the negative in everything that the PDGA does.
If I dig deep enough, I occasionally find a grain of good. It is so often encased in such a thick layer of bad that it is very hard to uncover.
I certainly hope the sponsors don't read your post or we will lose what little progress we have made.
I would prefer no progress to progress built on a foundation of untruths.
I don't know you but from the tone of most of your post I would expect that I would not enjoy knowing you.
That is quite sad; it says much more about you than about me.
I truely do not understand what your motivation is for all the negative post but I suspect that you are a very unhappy person trying to make everyone else unhappy with you.
Thanx for the nickel psychoanalysis, but you probably need to go back to med school. I only become unhappy when I see my dues $$ go towards the enrichment of underqualified cronies who, among a litany of other mistakes, make the org (and me and all other disc golfers, by extension) look bad with racially-insensitive public statements & out-and-out false press releases.
you have gotten your point across here.
I believe so, as well, but some folks just don't seem to "get it".

four and 1/2

If I dig deep enough, I occasionally find a grain of good. It is so often encased in such a thick layer of bad that it is very hard to uncover.

Could you please guide me to some of your positive and encouraging post. They are "so often encased in such a thick layer of bad that it is very hard to uncover."

I would prefer no progress to progress built on a foundation of untruths.
Wow! Your acrimonious rantings of the "truth" are even more painful than the PDGA's missteps At least I see them doing something on a national basis what about you? Oh, I forgot you have already spent many hours entertaining us with the Wonderful World of Vegaray.

I only become unhappy when I see my dues $$ go towards the enrichment of underqualified cronies who, among a litany of other mistakes, make the org (and me and all other disc golfers, by extension) look bad with racially-insensitive public statements & out-and-out false press releases.

If you become unhappy seeing your dues miss spent and the org so poorly run then the intelligent (and I use the term with hesitation) thing to do is run for office, or leave the org to its' own self destruction. At least then if we fail you can sit back with a big grin on your face and tell everyone how you knew it was going to happen.

Last but not least thanks for continuing to rehash a subject that is long dead in the eyes of the American public. Could it have been you that was so busy trying to stir the pot on the Blogs after the incident started to die out?

I sit on the edge of my chair waiting on your next exciting installment of "as the Veganray Churns."

still only 4 1/2 - even though he did pull the tried and true "attack the messenger" card.

Could you please guide me to some of your positive and encouraging post. They are "so often encased in such a thick layer of bad that it is very hard to uncover."
I would not expect you to do your research for me & I will decline your offer to do your research for you.

Wow! Your acrimonious rantings of the "truth" are even more painful than the PDGA's missteps At least I see them doing something on a national basis what about you? Oh, I forgot you have already spent many hours entertaining us with the Wonderful World of Vegaray.
What I do to further the sport (on whatever level I choose) is my business. I pay the org to "do something on a national basis", but I feel a duty to keep a close watch to see that they things they choose to do and the methods they employ to do them meet my high standards of excellence & propriety. It is flattering that you (and at least one other, judging by your use of the plural pronoun) are entertained by my "Wonderful World", but I assure you that entertainment is not my goal, but merely a byproduct of my awesomeness.

If you become unhappy seeing your dues miss spent and the org so poorly run then the intelligent (and I use the term with hesitation) thing to do is run for office, or leave the org to its' own self destruction.

Argumentum ad hominem is so crude. Please attempt to refrain from resorting to this fallacious debate technique, if you can. If I felt that I could make a difference by running for office, I would, but I have seen that change from within is near-impossible in the face of the crony bloc. At least one fellow that I can think of right off the top of my head made it so far as the BOD, only to walk away in despair as his innovative ideas for reform were summarily dismissed. As far as leaving the org, I struggle with that decision each winter.

At least then if we fail you can sit back with a big grin on your face and tell everyone how you knew it was going to happen.
I would find no joy in seeing the org fail, as I think that, given proper leadership, it could do great things for professional disc golf.

Last but not least thanks for continuing to rehash a subject that is long dead in the eyes of the American public. Could it have been you that was so busy trying to stir the pot on the Blogs after the incident started to die out?
It could have been I, but was not.

Hope this never happens to this org due to its mind-bendingly poor choice of Director of Marketing & Communications:

Duesler changes the complexion of his club's bank account (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/09/23/pennsylvania.swim.racism/index.html)

Yet I am put on probation for a post here in which I never sad a bad word nor received an explanation as to what I did to bring about such punishment besides saying we can do better than our current marketing director.

Seriously how is the internet thing going to bring us to the masses when you have to register for it before the event? Anyone really think non DGers will be signing up?

Hope this never happens to this org due to its mind-bendingly poor choice of Director of Marketing & Communications:

Duesler changes the complexion of his club's bank account (http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/09/23/pennsylvania.swim.racism/index.html)

darn Ray- look what you did... inciting the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission like that with your posts on the pdga board.

darn Ray- look what you did... inciting the Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission like that with your posts on the pdga board.
I guess now I'm supposed to fulfill i2rt's Nostradamic prophecy and "sit back with a big grin on my face and tell everyone how I knew it was going to happen."

Last but not least thanks for continuing to rehash a subject that is long dead in the eyes of the American public.

Yesterday, the PA Human Relations Commission brought the issue back into the eyes of the American public. Everyone should read the report for themselves. I could not find the PHRC's version of the report, but the lawyers suing the Huntingdon Valley Club have issued a redacted version, available here:

http://media.nbclocalmedia.com/documents/Valley+Swim+Club+Ruling+Press_Statement_9_22_2009. pdf

The only information redacted are the names of the parents and kids.

I don't believe John Duesler is racist or acted with ill intent. I also don't believe the PHRC's findings were driven by "media frenzy". I read the whole thing and it seems pretty fact-based driven to me.

I don't want bad blood, but the PHRC's findings are very disturbing. I am especially disturbed at the warning that was seemingly ignored (point # 146) and the reaction from the same person after the incident occurred (point # 161) After reading the report, it's harder for me to believe that "safety" was truly the motivating factor here. I am genuinely saddened by what I read.

http://whyy.org/blogs/itsourcity/2009/07/13/john-complexion-dueslers-2nd-job-is-in-public-relations/


Looks like they found out he works for the PDGA. FWIW it is from July.

hmmm...


Please obtain all the information and let this issue play out before you form conclusions that result in you labeling someone a racist.



If this is still national news in a month, I would be shocked. This will NOT affect his job with the PDGA.

As stated before, this will blow over in a week.


We can let this all blow over and get back to our daily lives.

This is a media witch hunt and the truth will eventually come out.


I think the peak of the crisis has passed.

We're now getting more comments about the PDGA in general and Jeff than we are about Duesler.

In another week this will have all blown over...except for comments about PDGA and Jeff of course. I'm afraid those are here to stay.



Unlike most of the lurkers and trolls on this board, at least I do a little research and have some facts before merely speculating and making up complete garbage just so it fits my agenda.

Yesterday, the PA Human Relations Commission brought the issue back into the eyes of the American public. Everyone should read the report for themselves. I could not find the PHRC's version of the report, but the lawyers suing the Huntingdon Valley Club have issued a redacted version, available here:

http://media.nbclocalmedia.com/documents/Valley+Swim+Club+Ruling+Press_Statement_9_22_2009. pdf

The only information redacted are the names of the parents and kids.

I don't believe John Duesler is racist or acted with ill intent. I also don't believe the PHRC's findings were driven by "media frenzy". I read the whole thing and it seems pretty fact-based driven to me.

I don't want bad blood, but the PHRC's findings are very disturbing. I am especially disturbed at the warning that was seemingly ignored (point # 146) and the reaction from the same person after the incident occurred (point # 161) After reading the report, it's harder for me to believe that "safety" was truly the motivating factor here. I am genuinely saddened by what I read.

I got bored reading all the facts around #100. I read the specific ones you mentioned, and I agree with you, but am hardly surprised. I haven't seen anything, other than what appears to be a poorly worded statement, that makes me concerned about Mr. Duesler.

In short, imo at least, critics should stick to substantive criticisms. Bringing this into the discussion makes it look like an agenda.

I got bored reading all the facts around #100.

I would read it again - the most important facts surrounding this incident occur from around #100-#169.

Reading the PHRC report only *exactly* reaffirms everything that came out back in July: that our marketing director happened to be president of a local swim club where some swim club members allegedly made inappropriate comments about the race of a youth group attending the pool, and the board of directors of said club voted to refund money to all youth groups attending that summer, supposedly because of safety concerns.

Furthermore, absolutely nothing about this incident has anything to do with his ability to perform his duties as marketing director for the PDGA. The notion that if, for example, a PDGA Boad of Directors member is also a member of Moose International or Lions Clubs International chapter which is involved in some national incident is then somehow unfit to perform his PDGA duties and should resign is just as ludicrous.

It's amazing that now how many months later certain folks still feel the need to drag this incident back up because they feel slighted over a press release which didn't acknowledge the internet coverage provided at the Vibram Open, and the groundbreaking for our sport and foundation which this event laid. Both the PDGA Director and Marketing Director have posted in this thread, indicated that the Vibram Open should be recognized for its accomplishments, pointed out the differences in how the USDGC will be broadcast, and made amends.

The continued attacks against the PDGA and our marketing director, one of the finest men I know, are repugnant. If you're so unhappy with the PDGA, then please, don't renew in 2010. The PDGA will work to grow the sport of disc golf just fine, and without your negativity dragging it down.

Read closer, we are in agreement, other than the "love it or leave it" sentiment.

ps. Thankfully, I was unaware of this drama until today.

The OVER pays out!!! (I knew it was just a matter of time.) PM to arrange for collecting your winnings, all you OVER bettors and, as always, thank you for playing.

ps. Thankfully, I was unaware of this drama until today.
Sorry to disappoint the conspiracy theorists, but the most recent chapter of the drama wasn't reported until today.

The most recent chapter of the drama wasn't reported until today.

I'm not reading this whole thing. At this point, all I've seen is his "complexion" remark, and I ASSUME, that it was not meant to describe skin complexion and was just an unfortunate choice of words. Do you not agree?

Therefore, since I assume his statement was non intended the way some have interpreted, and since his presidency of a club that has members who might be bigots is irrelevant to me (reading some of the Obama threads here convinces me I am a member of an organization with bigots; doesn't mean I am one).

Therefore, this whole drama is appears to be a weapon wielded by those who oppose him for other reasons. I don't know much about what he does, and whether he is good at his job or not; however, this stuff appears to be smear and not substance.

I guess now I'm supposed to fulfill i2rt's Nostradamic prophecy and "sit back with a big grin on my face and tell everyone how I knew it was going to happen."

I would expect nothing less from you.

I would read it again - the most important facts surrounding this incident occur from around #100-#169.

Reading the PHRC report only *exactly* reaffirms everything that came out back in July: that our marketing director happened to be president of a local swim club where some swim club members allegedly made inappropriate comments about the race of a youth group attending the pool, and the board of directors of said club voted to refund money to all youth groups attending that summer, supposedly because of safety concerns.

Furthermore, absolutely nothing about this incident has anything to do with his ability to perform his duties as marketing director for the PDGA. The notion that if, for example, a PDGA Boad of Directors member is also a member of Moose International or Lions Clubs International chapter which is involved in some national incident is then somehow unfit to perform his PDGA duties and should resign is just as ludicrous.

It's amazing that now how many months later certain folks still feel the need to drag this incident back up because they feel slighted over a press release which didn't acknowledge the internet coverage provided at the Vibram Open, and the groundbreaking for our sport and foundation which this event laid. Both the PDGA Director and Marketing Director have posted in this thread, indicated that the Vibram Open should be recognized for its accomplishments, pointed out the differences in how the USDGC will be broadcast, and made amends.

The continued attacks against the PDGA and our marketing director, one of the finest men I know, are repugnant. If you're so unhappy with the PDGA, then please, don't renew in 2010. The PDGA will work to grow the sport of disc golf just fine, and without your negativity dragging it down.



what's ludicrous and amazing is how difficult it seems for you to put analogies together, jeff. one of the finest men you know is not a member of the moose lodge, he's the director of an all white swim club trying to expand without including blacks. of course, he is also the marketing and communications director for the professional disc golf association, where he is being criticized for both erroneous and poorly written releases that have been published. all your well wishes and personal anecdotes would no doubt be better received if you acknowledged reality. it is laughable reading your posts condemning others for their negativity. apparently, it is only negative if it is not in line with your views. obviously, i would not be in support of you as marketing and communications director, either.

I would read it again - the most important facts surrounding this incident occur from around #100-#169.

Reading the PHRC report only *exactly* reaffirms everything that came out back in July: that our marketing director happened to be president of a local swim club where some swim club members allegedly made inappropriate comments about the race of a youth group attending the pool, and the board of directors of said club voted to refund money to all youth groups attending that summer, supposedly because of safety concerns.

Furthermore, absolutely nothing about this incident has anything to do with his ability to perform his duties as marketing director for the PDGA. The notion that if, for example, a PDGA Boad of Directors member is also a member of Moose International or Lions Clubs International chapter which is involved in some national incident is then somehow unfit to perform his PDGA duties and should resign is just as ludicrous.

It's amazing that now how many months later certain folks still feel the need to drag this incident back up because they feel slighted over a press release which didn't acknowledge the internet coverage provided at the Vibram Open, and the groundbreaking for our sport and foundation which this event laid. Both the PDGA Director and Marketing Director have posted in this thread, indicated that the Vibram Open should be recognized for its accomplishments, pointed out the differences in how the USDGC will be broadcast, and made amends.

The continued attacks against the PDGA and our marketing director, one of the finest men I know, are repugnant. If you're so unhappy with the PDGA, then please, don't renew in 2010. The PDGA will work to grow the sport of disc golf just fine, and without your negativity dragging it down.

Well at least now I know why I was probed. Its personal to Jeff just like when Mikey got Banned.

For the umpteenth time, here's how the moderation system works:

a) A PDGA member sees a post that he/she finds offensive and uses the 'Notify Moderator' button to report it.

b) A member of the moderation team examines the post and decides whether it does not violate the rules, gets a warning (along with removal) or violates the rules egregiously enough to apply probation/suspension to the original poster.

c) At that point, the decision of the moderator is sent to the original poster, the person who reported it, the other moderators, and Executive Director Brian Graham.

d) If any other moderator feels that a poor decision was made, he can weigh in with his thoughts to the Executive Director. This could be done if a moderator decision goes against previously established rulings, or makes a decision that sets a precedent that the other moderators may not agree with and may not personally go along with if a similar case came up in the future. The Executive Director could also disagree with the moderator decision and reverse it.

e) So in order for a probation to be applied, 1) a message board user has to first report a post to the moderation team 2) one of the moderators has to decide on it 3) the other moderators see it and don't protest 3) the Executive Director has to agree on it, and deny any appeal

the negative posturing throughout this thread is absurd.

there are very few folks (me included) that have chimed in on this thread that have any clue as to the real and total facts of what went on in the days before, during, and after the "swim club incident". all most of us know is what we have heard or read somewhere, and chances are those reports are also heresay.

i also suspect there is very little, if any, evidence of how JD's role with the swim club has negatively impacted his ability to properly perform his job with the PDGA.

the constant lynch-mob mentality of some to seize upon minute details and words, whether it's used by JD in press conferences, or with regard to the internet TV claims, is almost nauseating.

so what if a claim was made that the USDGC internet TV was "the first"? is it that important to spend so much time arguing that point? what about the bigger picture (literally and figuratively)? how about putting as much energy into how awesome this is for our sport as you do about arguing semantics? it starts to look and feel like an exercise in debating and who can make the smartest debate point. this isn't law class.

somewhere underneath all the blah blah blah is a universal truth, unbeknownst to all of us.

in the meantime how about embracing and celebrating all that is GOOD with the PDGA and our sport and those who spend countless volunteer hours (or paid hours at what probably works out to a rate less than minimum wage) trying to spread the disc golf gospel?

disc golf is a game for god's sake. have fun with the game. celebrate it. be joyful with it. share it with others. embrace it with childlike enthusiasm. treat it as an escape or a therapeutic tool as a diversion from more serious or pressing life issues.

FONDLE PLASTIC. PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS. GO FOR GRINS !!!

dandoyle 53 years old, going on 9 years old.
warwick, ny

At your age you should know better. I'm glad you do. At their age, its going to take some time.

In short, imo at least, critics should stick to substantive criticisms. Bringing this into the discussion makes it look like an agenda.

I did not post the report because I have an agenda. I'm also not looking to make accusations, demand resignations, or level a whole lot of criticism. I have no problem with the Press Release concerning the internet broadcast. My decision to post the PHRC's report had nothing to do with that. Compared to the PHRC's report, that Press Release is a complete non-issue.

I did drop a few of my thoughts in my previous post and already regret that. I wish I had just posted the link to the report and walked away. However, this is truly compelling stuff and I got caught up in the moment. I defer to my post count as proof that I'm not a message board junkie that enjoys drama.

I got into this mess for 1 reason.... 2 months ago we all received very good advice. Wait for the facts, and then make your judgement. Well, the facts were released so I provided them here. If I can be accused of any agenda, it's making sure everyone has what they need to reach a proper judgement.

The conclusions reached by the PHRC are at the end of the document. Without reading them, you're missing a lot of facts. People should the read the WHOLE document and then draw their own conclusions.

Message boards can be confusing, especially with sloppy posters like myself. I was responding to your post, but you weren't one of the critics I had in my mind, nor did I mean to imply that you had an agenda. The agenda I assumed was this: we don't like what he has done in his role as marketing director, therefore we will use this to undermine him. Sorry for the confusion.

Taking your advice, I will read the whole thing. When reading the first time, I had one question I wanted answering: does the PDGA have some bigot in charge of marketing, not whether the swim club had its share of bigots? Personally, I saw nothing to say yes to the first question.

You have got to be kidding me, I can't even get myself to read through some of these posts. Clearly, we haven't a clue what marketing means or costs.

Isn't having DGRNZ enough? Is it essential to have DGWNZ also? Marketing is in many ways the art of BS. The fact that John adds some BS to sell our product, even internally, should be accepted. So what are we mad about, is it that we are word purists, mad at the PDGA, mad at John, whining?

The PDGA has been tasked by much whining on this very site to provide greater, lets call it, services to our membership. The concept that they would provide this benefit as part of our membership seems sharp, a good use of our money, entertaining, you name it. Whether they stole it from Steve, dog ball, Obama addressing congress, or mud wrestling doesn't matter to me. That they are selling it as an accomplishment seems smart to me.

I suppose though that they could write it up as:

"Brought to you by the PDGA, a technology that has been employed everywhere else by everyone else, disc golf on T.V. live! We're sorry we got here late, and that we haven't added more money to third, seventh or fifteenth place, that is whatever place Matt came in at his last three tournaments, but here it is for your enjoyment. Ta Da! Oh yeah did we mention, Steve had the idea for disc golf first, even before we did? We're not going to give him credit though, if we did, no one could whine about it on the MB, so get out there and post away!"

Now that, is a fine piece o marketing!

On the other hand, it's good to see that we've gotten back to roasting John, that despite the fact that his 15 minutes of Andy Warhol fame is over.

it is interesting that so many think it is unacceptable to hold the communications director responsible for his communications. i'd guess that a little more communication out of the communications director would go a long way.

The fact that John adds some BS to sell our product, even internally, should be accepted.
Using that morally-deficient philosophy, you should be disappointed that the truth-stretching didn't go nearly far enough. To really "market" disc golf, Dr. D should spin a blockbuster press release touting these other aspects of disc golf:

Those "chinging" sounds one hears at a disc golf course are actually rivers of golden coins that spill from our targets each time a disc enters successfully
Each of our courses features a nude masseuse at each tee to provide necessary or desired services
Unbeknownst to the general public, all of our water hazards are actually filled with clean, cold, free beer
Our sport boasts an unparallelled umbrella organization, helmed by hyper-talented, open-minded individuals with the best interest of the players (and the players money, of which they are vigilant stewards) always at the absolute forefront of their minds


Now that, is a fine piece o marketing!

it is interesting that so many think it is unacceptable to hold the communications director responsible for his communications. i'd guess that a little more communication out of the communications director would go a long way.

it's interesting that a few find it acceptable and somehow that they're providing a valuable service to the constituency to spend an overwhelming majority of their posting time as watchdogs. it's interesting that a few see things as a glass half empty rather than as a glass half full.

i'd prefer the "communications director" spend his time communicating with the public and working on helping to grow our sport rather than communicating with disgruntled conspiracy theorists and responding to all the negative comments that a few here seem to find helpful.

it's interesting that a few find it acceptable and somehow that they're providing a valuable service to the constituency to spend an overwhelming majority of their posting time as watchdogs. it's interesting that a few see things as a glass half empty rather than as a glass half full.

i'd prefer the "communications director" spend his time communicating with the public and working on helping to grow our sport rather than communicating with disgruntled conspiracy theorists and responding to all the negative comments that a few here seem to find helpful.


hmmm, interesting.

Using that morally-deficient philosophy, you should be disappointed that the truth-stretching didn't go nearly far enough. To really "market" disc golf, Dr. D should spin a blockbuster press release touting these other aspects of disc golf:

Those "chinging" sounds one hears at a disc golf course are actually rivers of golden coins that spill from our targets each time a disc enters successfully
Each of our courses features a nude masseuse at each tee to provide necessary or desired services
Unbeknownst to the general public, all of our water hazards are actually filled with clean, cold, free beer
Our sport boasts an unparallelled umbrella organization, helmed by hyper-talented, open-minded individuals with the best interest of the players (and the players money, of which they are vigilant stewards) always at the absolute forefront of their minds


Now that, is a fine piece o marketing!

What would you have me say Vega? It is an unfortunate reality, that in every stage of my education I had at least one WWII vet as a teacher. They were all of the mindset that a man (woman) is innocent until proven guilty. It used to be a central tenet of our way of life. That is, it wasn't just a law, as a people, we believed it. If you'll take the time to read back through my posts, I've stated clearly that I think what John said was at best foolish; but, there has been no trial, no real proof of intent, simply the bald assertion that John was being racist. Those who aren't quite comfortable going that far fall back on the, "he's now a liability to the organization."

Another central tenet of this country used to be that, we'd rather let a guilty man go free, than condemn an innocent man. As blacks in the South can tell you, we've gotten over that one. Clearly in this, the PDGA membership has too. So, to prove our point, that we are unhappy with everything, or at least some of the things the PDGA does, we would castrate John? We would cling to this event, and his actions beyond this event, in our hope to show that the PDGA is poorly run, that they have provided nothing to us? Would we deny both what we are as a sport, and an organization, in terms of popularity and resources, to imagine that if only we had "this" set of skills, we would be so much more. And since we are not, we should punish those who are leading?

I'd like to think more of us than this. I know this is what America has become, but I'd like for this organization to be better.

How easily we forget how hard the job it is to usher such a sport forward. We forget the evidence shown, that few sports of our size and nature have grown as well, or as clearly as this one has. We forget that marketing costs money, as do services. We forget that we are a diverse organization with many needs and demands, all of which cannot possibly be met. We forget that the desire of Pros to be paid more, has to be countered against the desire of the Amateur players to be entertained, and to be provided with services.

I am personally amazed at the growth in services that has occurred in this organization since I came on board... 6 to 9 years ago (getting old stinks). From a weak MB we have gone to a multifunctional, highly professional site, with dozens of resources, and tons of information. Regular videos and commentary on our events and processes come to this site daily.

While I would love for John to bring on board a multimillion dollar sponsorship, I'd think he was more god-like than devil-like if he could. Such things don't happen in the real world. What John does do is incredible. The write ups and commentary he makes, are polished, well spoken, and clearly planned. I've listened to enough disc golf event DVDs, and have competed personally in numerous competitions, enough so to be well versed in how badly such things can go. You may not want to credit John, but he is a good face on this organization, despite his stupid comments, in one instance. And while there are other options for this task, they are not as good as John; that includes Nature Boy, who is highly repetitive, and has a number of catch phrases that he loves to repeat, and is frequently short of breath in his commentary. Yes, he's better than many, but he is not as good, or as metered as John is.

The reality is that predictably, I've seen no real backlash to the PDGA for John's boo boo. Well, beyond the calls posted that I would be willing to bet were posted by disgruntled members, not the public at large (a truly immature and hateful way to get one's point across IMO). So the weak argument that John is now a liability is not working for me, nor is the argument that he is not providing good services, given our resources, that is. And given the influence of those Americans, who gave hugely to our country, and believed that persecuting someone not proved guilty is unforgivable, on my own values, I cannot see my way to condemning John without better evidence. Until that evidence is forthcoming, I will continue to support him, and his efforts.

Lyle,

That was one of the finest posts I have ever seen on the MB, and I have been here from the start. I will not attempt to add to it.

Thank you.

What would you have me say Vega? It is an unfortunate reality, that in every stage of my education I had at least one WWII vet as a teacher. They were all of the mindset that a man (woman) is innocent until proven guilty. It used to be a central tenant of our way of life. That is, it wasn't just a law, as a people, we believed it. If you'll take the time to read back through my posts, I've stated clearly that I think what John said was at best foolish; but, there has been no trial, no real proof of intent, simply the bald assertion that John was being racist. Those who aren't quite comfortable going that far fall back on the, "he's now a liability to the organization."

Another central tenant of this country used to be that, we'd rather let a guilty man go free, than condemn an innocent man. As blacks in the South can tell you, we've gotten over that one. Clearly in this, the PDGA membership has too. So, to prove our point, that we are unhappy with everything, or at least some of the things the PDGA does, we would castrate John? We would cling to this event, and his actions beyond this event, in our hope to show that the PDGA is poorly run, that they have provided nothing to us? Would we deny both what we are as a sport, and an organization, in terms of popularity and resources, to imagine that if only we had "this" set of skills, we would be so much more. And since we are not, we should punish those who are leading?

I'd like to think more of us than this. I know this is what America has become, but I'd like for this organization to be better.

How easily we forget how hard the job it is to usher such a sport forward. We forget the evidence shown, that few sports of our size and nature have grown as well, or as clearly as this one has. We forget that marketing costs money, as do services. We forget that we are a diverse organization with many needs and demands, all of which cannot possibly be met. We forget that the desire of Pros to be paid more, has to be countered against the desire of the Amateur players to be entertained, and to be provided with services.

I am personally amazed at the growth in services that has occurred in this organization since I came on board... 6 to 9 years ago (getting old stinks). From a weak MB we have gone to a multifunctional, highly professional site, with dozens of resources, and tons of information. Regular videos and commentary on our events and processes come to this site daily.

While I would love for John to bring on board a multimillion dollar sponsorship, I'd think he was more god-like than devil-like if he could. Such things don't happen in the real world. What John does do is incredible. The write ups and commentary he makes, are polished, well spoken, and clearly planned. I've listened to enough disc golf event DVDs, and have competed personally in numerous competitions, enough so to be well versed in how badly such things can go. You may not want to credit John, but he is a good face on this organization, despite his stupid comments, in one instance. And while there are other options for this task, they are not as good as John; that includes Nature Boy, who is highly repetitive, and has a number of catch phrases that he loves to repeat, and is frequently short of breath in his commentary. Yes, he's better than many, but he is not as good, or as metered as John is.

The reality is that predictably, I've seen no real backlash to the PDGA for John's boo boo. Well, beyond the calls posted that I would be willing to bet were posted by disgruntled members, not the public at large (a truly immature and hateful way to get one's point across IMO). So the weak argument that John is now a liability is not working for me, nor is the argument that he is not providing good services, given our resources, that is. And given the influence of those Americans, who gave hugely to our country, and believed that persecuting someone not proved guilty is unforgivable, on my own values, I cannot see my way to condemning John without better evidence. Until that evidence is forthcoming, I will continue to support him, and his efforts.



You do understand that most members have no clue of his role in the swimming pool incident which is partialy while there has been no backlash. If the majority of the membership knew what had happened and that he is our marketing director I feel there would be a much larger call for him to step down.

I know at worlds it was a somewhat big thing among some of the Pros in the know not just because of that one problem but also as many don't see a big change since 2005.

What would you have me say Vega? It is an unfortunate reality, that in every stage of my education I had at least one WWII vet as a teacher. They were all of the mindset that a man (woman) is innocent until proven guilty. It used to be a central tenant of our way of life. That is, it wasn't just a law, as a people, we believed it. If you'll take the time to read back through my posts, I've stated clearly that I think what John said was at best foolish; but, there has been no trial, no real proof of intent, simply the bald assertion that John was being racist. Those who aren't quite comfortable going that far fall back on the, "he's now a liability to the organization."
You're projecting motives onto me that I have denied many times:
I never accused Dr. Duesler of racism, only of unbelievably poor judgment in his statements. A person showing that poor judgment & lack of media savvy should, IMHO, not be a suitable person to serve as a Marketing Director of a large organization.

As a person, I have no problem giving him the benefit of the doubt. However, in his official capacity, his remarks & the controversy surrounding them will forever adversely effect his ability to market the PDGA, and, by extension, each day that he continues in office is both a detriment to our sport & a partial waste of each member's dues. Therefore, I cannot extend my beneficence to the point of allowing him to continue enjoying his position in the organization without speaking out.

For the purpose of this discussion, I don't care whether Dr. Duesler is a good guy, or a racist, or a stark raving maniac with 100 dead kittens hanging in his garage. What I do care about is his ability to effectively perform the job for which we have hired him. Now can anyone say with a straight face that he can do so as effectively today, with this cloud hanging over his head, as he could last week? If you can, you're either delusional or an excellent fabricator. Even if you are delusional & really believe that, do you want someone who is cavalier enough with his words to spark congressional, state legislative, & NAACP probes being the "Director of Marketing & Communications" speaking for the PDGA, the sport, & you?

Whether or not his quotes were taken out of context, or whether or not he has racist leanings, he should resign or be terminated so our marketing & communications can continue in the right direction.

I would be much less likely to advocate Dr. Duesler's removal/resignation if he came up to me & whispered in my ear, "I am a racist," than if he were not truly a racist but publicly said something so ill-advised as to connect himself with racism & draw national media attention to both that connection & his connection to the org.

My original argument for his unsuitability for continued employment was not that he was a racist, only an poor communicator with a paucity of media savvy. I would posit that good communication skills & an abundance of media savvy are prerequisites for a Director of Marketing & Communications.

Now, my second argument for his unsuitability is a demonstrably incorrect press release and his/the org's unwillingness to correct it. Whether the falsehoods published are a result of poor research or a conscious effort to dissimulate, I neither know nor care. The mere fact that an uncorrected press release is out there built upon falsehoods is further evidence of poor communication skills & little media savvy.

I don't see where a trial is necessary for either of these arguments, as records of each transgression are easily available to even the most casual researcher, and either the good Dr. himself nor anybody else has raised their voice to their claim that words have been misattributed to him. Neither his guilt nor innocence of racist motives has any bearing on my opinion that his words & actions have disqualified him for a position of such responsibility.

I'm truly sorry to disappoint you in that my arguments against his continued employment don't fulfill your vision of me as a PC accuser of a PDGA good ole boy as a racist, but the reality is that my reasons for advocating the termination of his employment are practical, not philosophical

You do understand that most members have no clue of his role in the swimming pool incident which is partialy while there has been no backlash. If the majority of the membership knew what had happened and that he is our marketing director I feel there would be a much larger call for him to step down.

I know at worlds it was a somewhat big thing among some of the Pros in the know not just because of that one problem but also as many don't see a big change since 2005.

And you'd like a phone list so you can call each and every one and tell them? What is the profit in such an action? More importantly, why make an issue when there isn't one? Especially given that as I've already stated, innocent until proven guilty. Are you so mad that you would persecute John without true evidence of guilt? If that is the only way you can make your point, I'm sad for you.

You're projecting motives onto me that I have denied many times:

Hardly, I think if you reread my post, you'll see that it went beyond a reply to your comments alone.


My original argument for his unsuitability for continued employment was not that he was a racist, only an poor communicator with a paucity of media savvy. I would posit that good communication skills & an abundance of media savvy are prerequisites for a Director of Marketing & Communications.

As I've already stated, it is clear that he is indeed a clear communicator with much media savvy. You would have John be perfect? I suggest you watch more politicians. John is better than most at this. Check out the Media directors under both the Bush and Obama administrations. I grant you, they had and have a tougher job, but it isn't as easy as one might think.

Now, my second argument for his unsuitability is a demonstrably incorrect press release and his/the org's unwillingness to correct it. Whether the falsehoods published are a result of poor research or a conscious effort to dissimulate, I neither know nor care. The mere fact that an uncorrected press release is out there built upon falsehoods is further evidence of poor communication skills & little media savvy.

Your notion of some underlying conspiracy to lie to us seems misplaced. But perhaps you're right, perhaps there is an underlying conspiracy to mislead us. I'll bet Brian H. is the head conspirator...

I don't see where a trial is necessary for either of these arguments, as records of each transgression are easily available to even the most casual researcher, and either the good Dr. himself nor anybody else has raised their voice to their claim that words have been misattributed to him. Neither his guilt nor innocence of racist motives has any bearing on my opinion that his words & actions have disqualified him for a position of such responsibility.

As already written, yes, John blew it. So Vegan, you've never said anything stupid, racist, thuggish? To what high standards do we hold John? Personally, I will go with Brian G. who knows John personally and states that he is not racist. Now, I am married to an Asian woman, and by our own government's definition, my mother is an American Indian, I have seen much racism in my life and abhor it, yet I am not without guilt in this area. We all make mistakes, the true measure is in how we deal with such things, and how we view those things and our actions. Do you know John so well that you know how he views what happened? Would it make you feel better if he came on here and begged your forgiveness? Or is there another issue that you're concerned about, and John is just something you can use to make your point?

I'm truly sorry to disappoint you in that my arguments against his continued employment don't fulfill your vision of me as a PC accuser of a PDGA good ole boy as a racist, but the reality is that my reasons for advocating the termination of his employment are practical, not philosophical

I don't remember calling you a PC anything, or an anti-racist or even implying that most of what I wrote was in response to you alone. Many have commented here on this issue. I'd like to see the logic behind the notion that John, a relative new comer to our leadership, is a good ole boy of the PDGA, unless by definition, working for, or with the PDGA, makes you one. Again, I see no evidence that the arguments here about his risk to us as an organization have any merit. But perhaps I am mistaken.

You do understand that most members have no clue of his role in the swimming pool incident which is partialy while there has been no backlash. If the majority of the membership knew what had happened and that he is our marketing director I feel there would be a much larger call for him to step down.

I know at worlds it was a somewhat big thing among some of the Pros in the know not just because of that one problem but also as many don't see a big change since 2005.

1) If the "majority of the membership" don't know what happened then isn't that a fairly good indicator? In today's Twitter / Facebook / internet, TV, mobile phone, & technology-driven society, "big" news is almost impossible to avoid. If the "majority of the membership" don't know what happened then isn't that an indicator that it wasn't really a news story at all, or at least one that was instantly recognized as one with little substance?

2) I was at Worlds as well and made it a point to talk to as many players as possible (including "Pros in the know") during casual rounds, at the Player's Meeting, Flymart, in the hotel lobby, etc. and I didn't hear a single person talking about the incident & PDGA marketing, and this was barely 3 weeks after it occurred. I made a specific point of it to ask PDGA office staff if they had received calls about it - I expected to hear of a flood, and they replied that they had received barely any whatsoever. Same thing for the Vibram Open NT event two weeks later - not a peep.

3) The notion that the marketing director or PDGA has done nothing to grow the sport since 2005 is laughable. We have new corporate sponsors, new discount programs with national hotel and car rental providers, a highly professional and dynamic website with vastly increased capabilities, immediate commentary & photo galleries of events on a nightly basis as they happen, e-newsletters and magazines, and dozens of other benefits too numerous to mention.

4) No, this is all just a convenient scapegoat for those who think that the sport should have magically grown overnight, attracted some huge national sponsors, be able to support touring Pros with 6-figure purses at every tournament event, etc. All of this should have happened just in the last four years since the PDGA essentially moved out of the basement of the previous executive director's house. :rolleyes:

While I've hesitated to say it before, the time has come. I say this representing no one but myself: Bottom line, if you have these kind of unrealistic expectations; if you think the marketing director & PDGA isn't doing everything they possibly can to grow the sport of disc golf; if you can't provide legitimate constructive criticism - the process of offering well-reasoned opinions that are intended to improve something, given in a polite and helpful manner rather than an oppositional one, usually backed up with an offer of possible solutions and not attacking people's traits, character or affiliations; if you renew each year seemingly only to publicly attack the efforts of volunteers & employees on this forum; then please, don't renew in 2010. The sport will grow just fine without you.

Well said Jeff.

As I've already stated, it is clear that he is indeed a clear communicator with much media savvy. You would have John be perfect. I suggest you watch more politicians. John is better than most at this. Check out the Media directors under both the Bush and Obama administrations. I grant you, they had and have a tougher job, but it isn't as easy as one might think.

Excellent parallel. Do you think if Ari Fleischer, Scott McClellan, Tony Snow, Dana Perino, or Bob Gibbs had stirred up a poop-storm with public comments as insensitive & downright stupid (not to mention media non-savvy) as Dr. Duesler's that any of the 5 wouldn't be out on his arse before the ink was dry on the papers reporting it?

Your notion of some underlying conspiracy to lie to us seems misplaced. But perhaps you're right, perhaps there is an underlying conspiracy to mislead us. I'll by Brian H. is the head conspirator...
This is like debating with a rock. Read carefully:
Whether the falsehoods published are a result of poor research or a conscious effort to dissimulate, I neither know nor care. The mere fact that an uncorrected press release is out there built upon falsehoods is further evidence of poor communication skills & little media savvy.

As already written, yes, John blew it. So Vegan, you've never said anything stupid, racist, thuggish?
Maybe so, maybe not. But I'm not the public face of the PDGA, nor am I in charge of its marketing & communications, and you can be assured that no public comment of mine has ever prompted investigations by the NAACP, PA state legislature, and US Congress, nor have any ever led to a $50,000 fine against the organization for which I was speaking.

Personally, I will go with Brian G. who knows John personally and states that he is not racist. Now, I am married to an Asian woman, and by our own government's definition, my mother is an American Indian, I have seen much racism in my life and abhor it, yet I am not without guilt in this area. We all make mistakes, the true measure is in how we deal with such things, and how we view those things and our actions. Do you know John so well that you know how he views what happened? Would it make you feel better if he came on here and begged your forgiveness? Or is there another issue that you're concerned about and John is just something you can use to make your point?
Jeez. More like debating with a pound of wet liver. Read carefully:
For the purpose of this discussion, I don't care whether Dr. Duesler is a good guy, or a racist, or a stark raving maniac with 100 dead kittens hanging in his garage. What I do care about is his ability to effectively perform the job for which we have hired him. Now can anyone say with a straight face that he can do so as effectively today, with this cloud hanging over his head, as he could last week? If you can, you're either delusional or an excellent fabricator. Even if you are delusional & really believe that, do you want someone who is cavalier enough with his words to spark congressional, state legislative, & NAACP probes being the "Director of Marketing & Communications" speaking for the PDGA, the sport, & you?

Whether or not his quotes were taken out of context, or whether or not he has racist leanings, he should resign or be terminated so our marketing & communications can continue in the right direction.

Hi all, a friend just told me about this thread and I (luckily) was not able to read all of it. I heard about John's pool issue, recognized it as incomplete and silly and instantly moved on.

Regarding the "first" internet broadcast, this is a debatable point depending on the sophistication of the broadcast. There is audio, dots, video, live scoring. These have all been done. At the Vibram Open this year, we did audio, video and live scoring simultaneously and we had over 1,000 people watching each day. Pretty awesome start, imo.

After seeing the "first" advertised regarding the USDGC broadcast, I recognized that they were talking about a "big-time" real broadcast, but it still raised a little question in my head. I emailed Brian and John about my questions on their wording of this. They both called me, apologized for the virtual toe-stepping-on in using the word "first" and within 24 hours, the website was amended to include a polite mention about the new standard the Vibram Open had set this year. One of my main concerns was the hundreds of staff hours that went into the creation of our coverage and how this time had just been squelched. Volunteers are key to any big tourney like this succeeding.

I look forward to watching the USDGC and I hope that it comes down to the wire (I'd like to see Bob Graham on the lead card this year). Tell everyone you know to watch that weekend. It truly could be a watershed event for disc golf. We've all been talking about breaking into the mainstream for the past twenty years or so, with enough registered viewers of this event, we really could be there. I am crazy happy to be a small part of this argument, but I'll take the under, since John and Brian have both already apologized for the wording oversight, and they did it to me personally.

Now pay up.

You want to grow the sport? Register to watch the USDGC! And tell your family to do it too. Let's grow this thing!

They both called me, apologized for the virtual toe-stepping-on in using the word "first" and within 24 hours, the website was amended to include a polite mention about the new standard the Vibram Open had set this year.
Fantastic, Steve; great to hear. I'm surprised & gratified at the same time.

Just post the text of where a PDGA representative "simply admits it was wrong to say their broadcast 'makes history' & is 'first," & I'll pay your & all of the other UNDER bets (and make sure Matt pays his) immediately.

Thanx for the update.

please,[/I] don't renew in 2010. The sport will grow just fine without you.

i am debating that at this time, primarily thanks to reactionary apologists such as yourself.

i am debating that at this time, primarily thanks to reactionary apologists such as yourself.

If having just a modicum of faith that both our elected leaders and our appointed ones are doing everything they possibly can to grow the sport of disc golf gets me labeled an apologist, then so be it.

Everything I have seen leads me to recognize that our leaders strongly believe that legitimate constructive criticism (the process of offering well-reasoned opinions that are intended to improve something, given in a polite and helpful manner rather than an oppositional one)encourages positive discussion, ways to improve the PDGA, and helps to make us a better organization. However, I will never hesitate to speak up against those message board users who are unable or unwilling to know the difference between legitimate constructive criticism and outright attacks against hard working volunteers and staff. For those people, maybe they should assess whether renewing with the PDGA is in their (and everyone else's) best interests.

jeff.....

you're wasting your time.

folks that are hard-wired to view circumstances thru a prism of negativity where less-than-perfect behavior or results takes on far more value than all the good stuff can't or won't internalize the kind of comments coming from you, Lyle, Steve Dodge, etc.

folks that are hard-wired to view circumstances thru a prism of negativity
I resent that remark. I use modular, plugin-based software to view circumstances over, and occasionally around, if the circumstance is appealing enough, a priapism (much more useful & fun to employ than any mere optical device) of excitement.

dan, i respect your opinion on dg matters- you have given of yourself for a long time and added tangibly to the game in your area. we probably have many shared experiences in that realm. that being said...

i have 4 questions for you:
1. do you believe john d's "complexion" statement in a public interview to have been ill-advised?

2. do you believe the upcoming usdgc broadcast was incorrectly represented as the "first" internet tv experience for dg?

3. do you believe that the two above incidents reflect well upon a marketing professional?

4. do you believe any of the above questions to be invalid?

i do not believe john d to be a racist. i do believe his club to be on one level or another- the same could be said for any number of organizations anywhere. i personally have no idea if john d is the best person for the job he occupies, as with most pdga positions i doubt the line of applicants was very long. it is the knee-jerk defenders of the faith who inevitably wind up "shooting the messenger" whenever anyone offers a dissenting opinion on this message board who really get my goat however and i will continue to rattle those cages as best i can provided i remain a member of the ORG.

the fact that i do not view the ORG through rose-colored glasses does not mean i view it through a "prism of negativity" either. if you look at the supporting member thread you will see i was one of the first to offer congratulations for the institution of that idea. offering praise does not gain the attention of the apologists however as does questioning points. it is generally said apologists who initiate the confrontational nature of these threads imo.

i have 4 questions for you:
1. do you believe john d's "complexion" statement in a public interview to have been ill-advised?

2. do you believe the upcoming usdgc broadcast was incorrectly represented as the "first" internet tv experience for dg?

3. do you believe that the two above incidents reflect well upon a marketing professional?

4. do you believe any of the above questions to be invalid?



1. i think a synonym for complexion would have worked better. i think john would agree. however, what's worse?: a human in that firestorm using a word that has multiple meanings, or those that chose to use one of the alternate definitions in a manner clearly not intended, or those that focus on his use of the word to support their position that he's not a good spokesperson?

2. i'm not informed enough of the facts to know if the use of the word "first" was incorrect. if it is indeed inaccurate then i'd suggest that it was an incorrect statement. but so what if it is incorrect? is that a significant mistake, if it is indeed a mistake? what's worse? an inaccurate statement or those that focus on the mistake rather than the bigger picture?

3. if this represented a pattern (and in my opinion a sample of 2 doesn't qualify as a pattern), and if the other side of the evil vs good ledger was blank, then i'd say there might be a story.

4. i think all questions are valid.

Me and the other apologists (that is horrid grammar but it's friday afternoon) don't honestly have an issue with dissent. My issue is when folks focus too much on the small stuff rather than the bigger picture. My issue is when folks in our Disc golf community fail to frame their comments within the context of disc golf being a game.

i'm not interested in sitting around a campfire and holding hands and singing "kumbaya" but **** disc golf is such a cool game and for me it's about having FUN !!! the most FUN wins. all the negativity doesn't feel like FUN.

Excellent parallel. Do you think if Ari Fleischer, Scott McClellan, Tony Snow, Dana Perino, or Bob Gibbs had stirred up a poop-storm with public comments as insensitive & downright stupid (not to mention media non-savvy) as Dr. Duesler's that any of the 5 wouldn't be out on his arse before the ink was dry on the papers reporting it?

Shirley you jest? There are dozens of examples of this, and quite frankly our media is quite forgiving. These guys were bad at best, dishonest at worst. They are rarely held accountable. You are holding John to a higher standard over an issue where you have little or no real information as to what really happened.


This is like debating with a rock. Read carefully:

agreed



Maybe so, maybe not. But I'm not the public face of the PDGA, nor am I in charge of its marketing & communications, and you can be assured that no public comment of mine has ever prompted investigations by the NAACP, PA state legislature, and US Congress, nor have any ever led to a $50,000 fine against the organization for which I was speaking.

All that, and we can't investigate whether our President lied to us about WMD or whether our VP okayed illegal torture... And to get more directly to the point, we stand around while our politicians break national and international laws and then investigate them for cheating on their wives. How silly of us not to recognize what is truly important.

In point of fact, you are the public face of the PDGA, we all are. Including the ducks who smoke in parks and get drunk at tournaments. Frankly, the best argument you can make here is that because America is a judgmental society, that acts immaturely, and doesn't recognize real problems within our government and society, they are likely to prejudge John harshly, and then look down on the PDGA. Therefore it is in our best interest as an org to shun him. As I wrote above, I'd like to think as an org we're better than that.


Jeez. More like debating with a pound of wet liver. Read carefully:

What was it I said above, Oh yeah, ever acted thuggishly before Vegan?

note to self: practice what thy preach

I will only mention that the PHRC investigation, even with the released statement, is still ongoing. That is, they've had their say, but the other side hasn't. The conclusions drawn at this site, are assigning guilt before the investigation is complete. Is that really what we want to be? More importantly, you are concluding that this incident, is impacting John's job, with no real evidence that it is. I know, preemptive strike...

All of that said, yes, I read the report. Frankly, I am impressed with what John tried to do rather than disappointed. I actually feel sorry for John after reading this. On the other hand, one of my earliest posts on this thread was that I suspect this wasn't John's doing, but the deal he got handed. Gee, this report seems to support that conclusion.

John, if you read this clap trap I apologize, it is clear what your intentions were, and that this mess was not your fault. I'm sure you must feel wonderful at being put in the position you are in. I am disappointed that anyone could read this report and feel anything but sorrow for the awful deal that John got handed.

And you'd like a phone list so you can call each and every one and tell them? What is the profit in such an action? More importantly, why make an issue when there isn't one? Especially given that as I've already stated, innocent until proven guilty. Are you so mad that you would persecute John without true evidence of guilt? If that is the only way you can make your point, I'm sad for you.


I wouldn't put OJ on our PDGA videos either after he was found innocent in 94. The fact is the PDGA not only continues to employ him but they seem to feel he is somehow the best face for our sport by putting him on numerous videos and continuing to do so with the 2009' worlds video wherein he is the interviewer of Avery! A few sites/blogs out there have already figured this out by viewing our Promos and seeing that he is also a pretty high up guy within this organization which as you know can always be turned into a basis of attack on the org.

I really just don't see how he can be the best fit for this position when I assume there are many golfers who may do a better job in the position. How long is the Marketing director's term? Are they voted in yearly by the BoD or do they keep their position for how ever long the PDGA wants them?

I will offer my services after I graduate! Maybe the PDGA should talk to some touring pros about marketing the sport as well since they are already traveling around the country and are the ones who have the most to gain from effective marketing.

I wouldn't put OJ on our PDGA videos either after he was found innocent in 94. The fact is the PDGA not only continues to employ him but they seem to feel he is somehow the best face for our sport by putting him on numerous videos and continuing to do so with the 2009' worlds video wherein he is the interviewer of Avery! A few sites/blogs out there have already figured this out by viewing our Promos and seeing that he is also a pretty high up guy within this organization which as you know can always be turned into a basis of attack on the org.

I really just don't see how he can be the best fit for this position when I assume there are many golfers who may do a better job in the position. How long is the Marketing director's term? Are they voted in yearly by the BoD or do they keep their position for how ever long the PDGA wants them?

I will offer my services after I graduate! Maybe the PDGA should talk to some touring pros about marketing the sport as well since they are already traveling around the country and are the ones who have the most to gain from effective marketing.

OMG - John interviewed Avery????
That is terrible, awful, an outrage!!.
How could we have let that happen???
Ummm, wait a second...why is that a problem?
Because it could be used as a basis of attack on the org?

Are you serious????

The only attacks on the org come from within.

Nice touch comparing John with OJ too.

That is in the running for the most ridiculous post ever.

OMG - John interviewed Avery????
That is terrible, awful, an outrage!!.
How could we have let that happen???
Ummm, wait a second...why is that a problem?
Because it could be used as a basis of attack on the org?

Are you serious????

The only attacks on the org come from within.

Nice touch comparing John with OJ too.

That is in the running for the most ridiculous post ever.

Yes, but it was funny, in the ridiculous sense that is.

I know I will always see John giving the low down on some event, while pulling on too tight of gloves...

On the other hand, Matt might be good at marketing. "Your company needs to give the PDGA money, THE PAYOUT ISN'T GOOD ENOUGH YET!"

For those, who like Matt, clearly didn't read the findings on this topic, go and read it. Top to bottom. Clearly, John acted well, and with much compassion in this situation. He tried to help a needy group, and is paying dearly for it. Point of fact, I don't feel sad for John at this point, rather, I'm proud, given what I read, and fairly disgusted by what I've seen here.

BTW - I'm not ignoring the fact that John made an indelicate statement, he did. But given the greater context of his actions, it is clear that his statement didn't mean what the press and many here are taking it to mean. No person who felt that changing the racial character of their club was a bad thing, would have made such an effort to help this day care, make the situation work, and try and resolve the problem when it first occurred. Frankly, I'm embarrassed to be participating in this thread at this point.

OMG - John interviewed Avery????
That is terrible, awful, an outrage!!.
How could we have let that happen???
Ummm, wait a second...why is that a problem?
Because it could be used as a basis of attack on the org?

Are you serious????

The only attacks on the org come from within.

Nice touch comparing John with OJ too.

That is in the running for the most ridiculous post ever.


Maybe I am just so upset because even if he were to keep his job within the PDGA I think it would be wise to have someone else give the interview considering the incident happened like a month before worlds!

Why not ANYONE else? A few sites found him on the 2008 worlds video and drew his connection to the PDGA and the fact that he is not only a member but a director. Jeez do you really think the benefits of having him perform the interview outweigh the possible downfalls? Seriously we aren't the most diverse group of golfers racially and when the outside groups on the side of the swimmers find out he is the director of another association which is for the most part white and he is representing us as a whole on the video we may catch some flack for that down the road.

Even without the Philly incident I think the directors should have evaluations or something published to the membership every few years. I don't understand why asking this is such a big deal because if there is someone whom is a better fit for the job wouldn't you want them to have the position?By not doing these types of things the PDGA at higher levels continues to feel like a good ole boy group.

Nice touch comparing John with OJ too.

That is in the running for the most ridiculous post ever.

Seriously! This could possibly be the most senseless and irrelevant analogy ever made on this message board, which is really saying something.

O.J. Simpson was arrested for double homicide and acquitted by a jury in possibly the most highly publicized criminal trial of all time. In a later civil trial, he was found liable by a jury for those deaths. Our marketing director has not been found guilty for any crime, nor was he arrested, nor has he even been accused of anything!

Matt Hall- Derogatory statement about the PDGA- Personal attack


When I asked what I did it was said that I had a nonconstructive comment which has nothing to do with the above which makes it look like I actually did something wrong.

I bet if I said Southern Nationals PR department was a joke it would be ok

If not see you guys in a few months.

A nonconstructive comment? That is funny, 90% of the comments on this board are not constuctive. Including this one.

Will black players be shown?

Only as caddies.

i would like to constructively criticise the poorly written event write ups, but i imagine it would seem like i am hard wired for negativity, instead of being hard wired for wanting more, or better, or more better. maybe i am the only one that reads those things, anyway. there doesn't appear to be any sort of copy editor.

Event write-ups are usually composed late in the evening by an event volunteer who served all day at the event in another capacity - possibly as Marshall, Scoring Director, Tournament Director, Assistant TD, etc. While a spelling checker helps, after working from 8 AM to 7 PM all day at a tournament, sometimes it's not the easiest thing in the world to compose a write-up at 9 or 10 or night that is perfect from a grammar and syntax standpoint. There's also typically no second set of eyes or copy editor available at that time of night, either. I've tried to help out by sending a notice by e-mail to someone when I saw an obvious hiccup in their writeup and have had the favor returned for me, but for an organization run almost entirely on volunteer efforts, especially when it comes to tournaments, I think we're fortunate to get writeups at all. And I can only imagine the howls of protest if the org actually paid for someone solely to travel to and write up events, or for a copy editor to proof them.

instead of excuses, let's focus on the write ups that our marketing and communications director provides. i am not criticising any volunteers. it is funny that you think we should feel fortunate to get event coverage while everyone uses lack of fans as a reason for their shortcomings. maybe you are not the best suited to be fielding comments that are not directed at you?

the hiccups in the writeups are that they are painfully boring and without substance when disc golf is netiher one of those things.

the hiccups in the writeups are that they are painfully boring and without substance when disc golf is netiher one of those things.

I couldn't disagree more. Ask anyone and they're likely to tell you that most disc golf articles come off as exceedingly dry and painfully boring, and being able to do otherwise is practically an art form. Even some of the best writers from the past decades who have had articles published in printed publications such as Disc Golf World News, Disc Golf Magazine, Flying Disc Magazine, DiscGolfer, etc. probably couldn't get anything published in a major sports magazine without extensive help from a professional writer / editor. Creating interesting journalism about disc golf is no small task. Try writing an article about disc golf sometime yourself and you'll see.

I'm sure most of us would agree that few things are more exciting than the flight of a properly thrown disc, as well as the sport of disc golf being played at its highest levels. But I think that the sport just inherently doesn't have a pizzazz that instantly attracts others; if it did, then it would surely be more popular than it is. It should tell you something that we can't even get spectators to come watch disc golf for FREE at most events, with the exception of a precious few Major & NT events each year.

the hiccups in the writeups are that they are painfully boring and without substance when disc golf is netiher one of those things.

Are you offering to help?

Maybe you could have the people send you the info and you could spruce it up.;)

Problem solved.

I couldn't disagree more. Ask anyone and they're likely to tell you that most disc golf articles come off as exceedingly dry and painfully boring, and being able to do otherwise is practically an art form. Even some of the best writers from the past decades who have had articles published in printed publications such as Disc Golf World News, Disc Golf Magazine, Flying Disc Magazine, DiscGolfer, etc. probably couldn't get anything published in a major sports magazine without extensive help from a professional writer / editor. Creating interesting journalism about disc golf is no small task. Try writing an article about disc golf sometime yourself and you'll see.

I'm sure most of us would agree that few things are more exciting than the flight of a properly thrown disc, as well as the sport of disc golf being played at its highest levels. But I think that the sport just inherently doesn't have a pizzazz that instantly attracts others; if it did, then it would surely be more popular than it is. It should tell you something that we can't even get spectators to come watch disc golf for FREE at most events, with the exception of a precious few Major & NT events each year.


you should not continue to tell other people that they are wrong because of your limited views. i think one of main differences we will continue to have is that you seem to think it is beyond reason to ask for more than small tasks from the director in charge. no wonder you are so defensive. the issues that the rest of us have been discussing are kind of a big deal. maybe you should find something with more pizzazz to direct your energy toward. most everyone whose company i enjoy is a golfer who found something instantly inherently attractive about the game. obviously we have all made a mistake. i am beside myself with you.

this was the first example i could find. please tell me how wonderful it is and how impossible it would be to improve upon. i will anticipate your response.




�888�

For some the number 13 is a lucky one. But for players at the USDGC, the number 13 adds up to another number�888.



The legendary hole 13 at Winthrop Gold is where good rounds frequently go to die during the USDGC. Located along the furthest part of the property around the Winthrop University Coliseum, hole 13 has been approached from more angles than a protractor during geometry class. Hyzers. Skip shots. Straight shots. They have all been tried to gain �888�s� sliver-like, tree-lined fairway along the parking lot. Yet even if players do manage to get their first tee-shot (or third-one) in play, they are then faced with the dilemma of throwing another, shorter fairway drive and again landing in play. For our best disc golfers, the third shot is then the one where they go for the basket located on a triangle of grass disconnected from the stretch of green they have just navigated. Many are thrilled with a par-saving five, but it is not uncommon to see cards inked-up with double-digit scores on this hole.


http://www.pdga.com/usdgc-what-to-watch

Are you offering to help?

Maybe you could have the people send you the info and you could spruce it up.;)

Problem solved.

what a wonderful idea. we should definitely have someone to do this. we could call them the "marketing and communications director". how soon can you have this implemented?

what a wonderful idea. we should definitely have someone to do this. we could call them the "marketing and communications director". how soon can you have this implemented?

I am sure that you would do a stellar job of promoting the PDGA with your positive upbeat attitude towards everything PDGA.
I guess I confused you complaining for an actual offer to do something besides complain...silly me.

maybe you should find something with more pizzazz to direct your energy toward.

Gregory Lane, the same could be said about you. Seemingly all you do is complain, and rarely is it constructive criticism: the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions that are intended to improve something. It should be given in a polite and helpful manner, rather than an oppositional one, and is usually backed up with an offer of possible solutions. It should not attack the recipients� traits, character, & affiliations that are moot to the central point.

In a sport in which marketing is inherently a tall task, I think the marketing director is doing a fantastic job. If you are so unhappy with the marketing and the PDGA in general, then please, don't renew next year.

how polite and helpful. it would not be hypocritical if you led by example. for similar reasons i wouldn't make the same suggestions. anyways, i can only assume you were very taken by the excerpt i posted. clearly we have a difference of opinion. yours seems to be that if you like it, it can do no wrong. i'm much more critical. i don't mean it to be callous or offensive. i would expect that an associations director would not be beyond reproach and in turn expect feedback. contrary to your assertions, my comments about the pdga are far from exclusively negative. those are just the only ones you choose to respond to, so the same can't be said about me. i find golf to be pretty spectacular, so i'm not ready to settle for it being portrayed as blahzay, and then complaining about it afterward. you're not following along very well.


so seriously, if i think there is room for improvement in the event write ups then i am against all things pdga? because if that is the case, i find the pdga forced, confusing, and lacking substance.

...and the ORG uses hyphens too much.

From an Email sent from the PDGA this afternoon that ends with statement below.

I am surprised to not see Ray, UNC and several other come on here and rip John D. for mentioning Steve for his work, but leaving off someone else for their work before.
I guess they're too busy responding to Jeff instead. :)

"Please know that the Professional Disc Golf Association is working hard to advance our great sport of disc golf. This step in advancing the way we bring disc golf directly to you is an extension of the great efforts of Steve Dodge and his team at the Vibram Open the last couple of years, as well as all who have been working so hard to make this dream come true. We are now counting on YOU to support our efforts by registering for this great event. "

Thank you,

Dr. John G. Duesler, Jr.
PDGA Director of Marketing & Communications

I am surprised to not see Ray, UNC and several other come on here and rip John D. for mentioning Steve for his work, but leaving off someone else for their work before.
I denounce only false statements, and the snippet you posted is 100% true, to the best of my knowledge.

Then what Dr John said in his release was not false, since there is no objective standard for what "first Internet TV production live” means. One can say that the statement is unclear or incomplete, or even go so far as to say it is misleading, but one should not say it is false, because it is clearly _not_ "false" because, I believe, there is no objective standard.

Then what Dr John said in his release was not false, since there is no objective standard for what "first Internet TV production live� means. One can say that the statement is unclear or incomplete, or even go so far as to say it is misleading, but one should not say it is false, because it is clearly _not_ "false" because, I believe, there is no objective standard.
As much as y'all moral relativists (a convenient & necessary philosophy for PDGA apologists) abhor it, there IS an objective standard for determining the truth or falsehood of any statement - an analysis of the definitions of the words used & a comparison of the derived overall meaning of the statement to reality.
first: coming before all others in time or order
internet: an international computer network providing e-mail and information from computers in educational institutions, government agencies, and industry, accessible to the general public via modem links
TV: a system for transmitting visual images and sound that are reproduced on screens, chiefly used to broadcast programs for entertainment, information, and education
production: a movie, play, or recorded sounds or images, esp. when viewed in terms of its making or staging
live: transmitted at the time of occurrence, not from a recording

Using the simple, readily-available definitions of the words used in your example above, the statement is proved false as I have provided a counterexample (VO) that refutes it.

Ray,

I wish that you wouldn't use charged words and phrases to describe those that argue other positions than the one you argue, phrases like "conspiracy theorists", "moral relativists", "PDGA apologists". It tends to distract me from the valid points that you may be making after you use those phrases, and believe me, I try to find valid points in every post I read, and I am certainly not telling you that you can't use such phrases, I am just suggesting that, for me and maybe for others, those phrases do not bolster your arguments.

I'm sure that you made a valid point in the latter part of your message, where it appears that you parsed the phrase, but I really didn't care to read it in detail after I read the first part of the first sentence.

If you think that the use of this phrase by Dr John was inappropriate, by all means, let the PDGA know via an official channel, which of course, you know that this is not.

I agree with Bill,

There is a path for this. I might also say if this is our measure for judging any PDGA leader, especially in this capacity, we are going to be fairly unhappy.

BTW - I like John's write ups. In general, his style is exciting enough and clear enough that the reads don't leave me bored.

Again, what is it we're looking for? If we're truly dissatisfied with the way things are run, then we should step up into a role to make things better.

By my measurement, as a business manager with an MBA, this organization runs incredibly well. In our culture, we're all to willing to sit in judgment of the imperfections of others. The PDGA functions very well on a relative basis to small companies and to small non-profit organizations. Their success and deliveries are many.

It is only because we live in the me first society of all me first societies that we want so much. What we have to have to be satisfied, is everything. And anything less than that, is deemed not enough. We are coming in for a rather large shock as other countries such as China begin to catch us. Perhaps then, when reality sets in, we will wake up and realize that we can't have everything, and that it is rude to whine when we get a good bit, but it isn't up to our grand expectations.

I have read many marketing bulletins that use language similar to John's, and the last part of the sentence makes the entire thing completely true. It is seldom quoted, but whatever was done would necessarily be the first time it was done live from the 2009 USDGC.

Gary,

I did. From post #321:

------

"The Professional Disc Golf Association will make history in October as it broadcasts the sport's first Internet TV production live from the 2009 United States Disc Golf Championship at Winthrop University in Rock Hill, South Carolina. "

That's all one sentence, so no matter what they do in October, it will be the first time it is done from the 2009 USDGC - get it?
-------

I have read many marketing bulletins that use language similar to John's, and the last part of the sentence makes the entire thing completely true. It is seldom quoted, but whatever was done would necessarily be the first time it was done live from the 2009 USDGC.

Over/under on # of org apologists who try to "massage" the language in that statement & the facts refuting it to provide spurious evidence of its veracity = 5.

Looks like I set the line a little low. I'll have to to take into account the leporidian fecundity of PDGA apologists next time.

I would much rather have leporidian fecundity ( I have 3 children, TYVM) than to be a nattering nabob of negativism.

I would much rather have leporidian fecundity ( I have 3 children, TYVM) than to be a nattering nabob of negativism.
Nabob?! I know I'm pretty darned awesome, but you're just making me blush now.:o

"If you are so unhappy with the marketing and the PDGA in general, then please, don't renew next year."
Jeff_LaG showing his marketing chops.....

I missed the memo where it stipulated that I personally have a single thing to do with marketing of the PDGA.

I speak solely on my own behalf, and do wish however that all those who could be safely described as a "nattering nabob of negativism" would just think twice. I have been a PDGA member since 1997 and on the PDGA DISCussion Board since the very beginning and, frankly, I am tired of it. The PDGA just moved out of the previous executive director's basement 4 years ago. We should be expecting baby steps, yet the sport is actually making great leaps thanks to the amazing efforts of all the paid PDGA employees and volunteers, and it's still never enough for some people. I am sick of people whose only purpose is seemingly to find fault with the PDGA and post commentary that is not constructive criticism and not meant to be helpful, but to point fingers and blame for every little minor detail they can find fault with. The PDGA might do 999 things right and these folks harp on the one small thing that didn't go as perfectly as planned. And in typical fashion, the ones who chirp the loudest are usually those who themselves do the least to support the sport.

The PDGA is working their tails off to grow the sport of disc golf, and it is right on the verge! It doesn't need people continually holding it back. I really think that the people who make persistent nonproductive commentary, derogatory content against the PDGA, etc. and who are obviously still unhappy despite the tremendous progress being made may need to examine whether the organization is still right for them.

I missed the memo where it stipulated that I personally have a single thing to do with marketing of the PDGA.

like it or not, we're all marketers of the pDGA, jeffrey. it shouldn't take a memo for that to be obvious. if you're uncomfortable with that, perhaps you should reconsider renewing.

If you are so unhappy with the marketing and the PDGA in general, then please, don't renew next year.

I tried that once. It didn't work. Getting out of the mob is easier...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33936463/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/

It even made the newspaper in my town, Middle-of-Nowhere, USA :(

The PDGA's official stance on this issue has never been made public. Nearly 6 months after the initial incident, this issue is still making national news. Jeez...

i was informed that the pdga's official stance is that if you do not like it, do not renew. obviously, this applies to many things pdga and can be found earlier in this post, as well as others. this ultimatum was presumably issued by an association spokesman acting in an authorized capacity. personally, i find this line of reasoning very confusing.

i was informed that the pdga's official stance is that if you do not like it, do not renew. obviously, this applies to many things pdga and can be found earlier in this post, as well as others. this ultimatum was presumably issued by an association spokesman acting in an authorized capacity. personally, i find this line of reasoning very confusing.

I think Jeff posted under his own user name when he made those statements, so be careful when making conclusions based on hearsay ("I was informed that...).

I think Jeff posted under his own user name when he made those statements, so be careful when making conclusions based on hearsay ("I was informed that...).

maybe your wit just does not translate well to text, bill?


either way, i find it more disturbing that we are being directed, without explanation, by someone who presidented a club into bankruptcy. i am not necessarily suggesting condemnation for past mistakes, but i do find the lack of clarification unsettling. if any of the above was untrue, i am sure that in an effort to avoid hearsay an association spokesperson would have said otherwise. obviously, you would want to be careful about all of that as well.

The PDGA's official stance on this issue has never been made public.

Hogwash.

The PDGA Board of Director's stance was made public when the Minutes from the August 2009 Teleconference were uploaded to the PDGA website on 9-3-2009.

From: Minutes from August 2009 Teleconference (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/2009-8-12BODMeetingMinutesApproved.pdf)



Teleconference Minutes
Professional Disc Golf Association (PDGA)
August 12, 2009

John Duesler Media Issue: by Decker/Graham
- The media storm has died down and there is no reason to think that John can�t represent the PDGA

maybe your wit just does not translate well to text, bill?

No wit intended.

I interpreted your phrase "I was informed that" to means something like "I was told by someone other than an official source, but I don't remember who it was".

If you meant Jeff, and knew it was Jeff, there would have been no harm in mentioning his name, and there would have been no confusion on my part as to the source of your information.

Hogwash.

The PDGA Board of Director's stance was made public when the Minutes from the August 2009 Teleconference were uploaded to the PDGA website on 9-3-2009.

From: Minutes from August 2009 Teleconference (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/2009-8-12BODMeetingMinutesApproved.pdf)



Yet over 3 months later it is STILL in the news.

Even without this issue his job performance over the last 4-5 years should be evaluated as most other employers do ever so often. When you include this incident in the mix it seems crazy that something even as simple as an evaluation has yet to be implemented at least to my knowledge.

I personally think there is probably someone out there willing to fill the position if needed with a name that has yet to be tainted.

Hiding what happened from the membership and sweeping it under the rug is not the right way to conduct such a situation.

so the following is the official officialese from the officialdom?

"John Duesler Media Issue: by Decker/Graham
- The media storm has died down and there is no reason to think that John can't represent the PDGA"


yes yes "no reason".


"Valley Club president John Duesler filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy protection. Those court documents show the club's assets are between $1 million and $10 million. Liabilities are estimated at $100,000 to $500,000.

"Despite our most ambitious efforts and countless hours of dedication towards the club, we have been unable to grow our membership enough to sustain The Valley Club any longer,” Duesler said in an email last week to members."

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Race-Controversy-Bankrupts-Valley-Swim-Club-70358122.html

Jeff, if that is the official public stance of the Executive Director of the PDGA, then I was wrong. But, he was also wrong, again.

Apparently the Executive Director and I have different opinions regarding this issue. Googling "John Duesler" gives me a reason to think that he is not suitable to represent the PDGA. First result-

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/topics/?topic=John+Duesler

Hopefully potential sponsors do not own computers that have internet access.

....Hiding what happened from the membership and sweeping it under the rug is not the right way to conduct such a situation.


The fact that this thread exists (and has over 13,800 views) proves the above statement to be false. Also, when trying to sweep things under the rug, it generally isn't a good idea to publish it in the official BOD minutes.

Again, the Minutes from August 2009 Teleconference (http://www.pdga.com/pdga-documents/bod-minutes/bod-minutes-2009/minutes-from-august-2009-teleconference), uploaded on 9-3-2009, shows that discussion about the issue was brought up by Board of Directors member and Chair Bob Decker and Executive Director Brian Graham. The synopsis of this discussion, as captured in the Minutes by Board of Directors member and Secretary Juliana Korver (and after which these Minutes were later approved by the Board of Directors) was that "the media storm has died down and there is no reason to think that John can�t represent the PDGA."

Again, my only point was that the contentions that "The PDGA's official stance on this issue has never been made public" and that the PDGA engaged in "Hiding what happened from the membership and sweeping it under the rug" are both absolutely false. By publicly posting these minutes on 9-3-2009, it was made quite public and abundantly clear.

PDGA members have every right to disagree with the Board of Directors decision, but don't try to intimate that it wasn't addressed and made available for public consumption. Because it was...right there in the Minutes (http://www.pdga.com/pdga-documents/bod-minutes/bod-minutes-2009/minutes-from-august-2009-teleconference)...on 9-3-2009.

The fact that this thread exists (and has over 13,800 views) proves the above statement to be false.

Suzette, I respectfully disagree with you. This thread exists because some members thought that the original incident deserved attention and discussion. We have heard very little from the PDGA regarding this issue.

Not too sure but I think South Park referenced the Philly pool club on a recent episode in which Cartman scanned the pool and counted more minorities within the water park than white kids. Not the whole basis of the story since it actually spotlighted peeing in the pool but I can't help but feel that The Valley club had some influence on that part of the episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by discette http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1402897#post1402897)
The fact that this thread exists (and has over 13,800 views) proves the above statement to be false.


Suzette, I respectfully disagree with you. This thread exists because some members thought that the original incident deserved attention and discussion. We have heard very little from the PDGA regarding this issue.


I agree this thread was started by a member. However, if the PDGA was truly trying to hide this from the membership, they would have deleted this thread long ago.


____________________
Some people seem to find great pleasure and self-importance when tilting at windmills. It is futile to try and convince them that their quest is misguided and their foe imaginary.

Oh my goodness, I thought for sure South Park was going to go there last night!!! Right at the part where Cartman started singing the Too Many Minorities at my Waterpark song:

http://boards.ign.com/teh_vestibule/b5296/186992819/p1/?4

I sat there and envisioned the rest of the episode in my head... Cartman enlists the help of an exaggeratedly militant Dr. JDD Jr. who rages into the Waterpark and boots all non-white kids out while befriending the ethnocentric Eric Cartman, telling him there's a place in the world that is still 99% white: the disc golf course! So of course Cartman would start disc golfing, delighted by the demographic, and - knowing Trey and Matt - the episode would surely have some strange twist where Cartman and the 'Disc Golf Association of Professionals' (DGAP) try to retake the country using plastic as weaponry.

Or something like that.

I thought for sure it was going to go down like that. Then that little girl peed. Phew! National exposure averted.

I am curious as to why South Park has never thrown DG into an episode. Same target demographic plus we're an easy sport to make fun of, ha ha!

We have heard very little from the PDGA regarding this issue.

In addition to the previous point made about the Board of Directors discussion in August and release in the September Minutes, please note that Executive Director Brian Graham was the 2nd person to post in this thread, and within ONE HOUR of the origination of this thread. Please click back to the very first page of this thread to read his message.

Yes Jeff, we all read Brian J. Graham's personal opinion of Dr. Duesler. What does this have to do with the PDGA's official stance?

it is too bad that sharing a hotel room with someone of a multi-ethnic background is not grounds for dismissal of lawsuits or club debts, and i still very much disagree with the one sentence recap of the board's so called discussion. am i to believe that we are led by a group that makes decisions based on the size of media storms?


how rational.


i will edit to say that, i imagine, the lack of response, and respect that it could show, isn't real surprising to anyone. as far as it goes it seems par for the course. true inspirations for the entire organization.

I think it's pretty laughable to assume that any decision was made based with large part "on the size of a media storm." I for one have enough faith in our Board of Directors to make a decision based on the realization that what happens to a PDGA representative in his outside interest, which is essentially the equivalent of his local gym, and which has absolutely nothing to do with disc golf, has exactly zero bearing on his duties serving the PDGA.

But if you disagree, then you have every opportunity to:

1) vote for different Board of Directors next election.
2) choose not to vote at all. Read into that any way you like.

But if you disagree, then you have every opportunity to:

1) vote for different Board of Directors next election.
2) choose not to vote at all. Read into that any way you like.

Don't forget the org's preferred option:
3) please, don't renew next year.

maybe i misunderstood your suggestion that a sentence long summation of a conversation, found near the end of the minutes from a meeting, was an official stance to be cited as public record, but apparently not to be taken seriously. if so then i agree that it is laughable. how confusing and unhelpful. i could not care less whether or not you are of the opinion that there are reasons to think the marketing and communications director can or cannot represent the pdga. i think the whole statement from the minutes is ridiculous and would find it humorous for someone to try to defend it. of course anyone can represent the pdga, take some of our senior members for example. the question to me is how you are received based on the representation. all of this is probably beside the point, and ignores the most confusing part, that the communications director refuses to communicate. i know the concept is difficult.



anyway, thank you for the opportunities. i will eagerly await a real response from someone capable of making one.

I will lay it out so everyone can understand it.

Even those who disagree with it.

The official position of the PDGA is John Duesler is the Marketing Director.

If you can't understand that there is nothing anyone can do to help you.

Time to get over it.

That's funny. Thank you, Pete.

I think it's pretty laughable to assume that any decision was made based with large part "on the size of a media storm." I for one have enough faith in our Board of Directors to make a decision based on the realization that what happens to a PDGA representative in his outside interest, which is essentially the equivalent of his local gym, and which has absolutely nothing to do with disc golf, has exactly zero bearing on his duties serving the PDGA.

But if you disagree, then you have every opportunity to:

1) vote for different Board of Directors next election.
2) choose not to vote at all. Read into that any way you like.



So let me understand your position. From what you stated as your basis for support of Duesler, It can be percieved by definition you would openly support registered sex offenders to play in disc golf events, amongst children on a wooded course with no supervision, as long as they paid the membership dues? At some point common sense should really kick in Jeff. Would you be psyched if your child was a victim? Granted, this is an extreme example, but who here is willing to say that the children that were involved in the situation deserved it or should not have any ill feelings or emotional trauma? Nobody is justified to do such things to children. On the job or not. Is there really any other opinion with validity?

I will lay it out so everyone can understand it.

Even those who disagree with it.

The official position of the PDGA is: John Duesler is the Marketing Director.

If you can't understand that, there is nothing anyone can do to help you.

Time to get over it.

I couldn't say it any better.

I couldn't say it any better.



Any chance he will ever have an evaluation to see how much he has benefited the org? 5 years is a long time and it would be nice to have an idea as to what he has brought to our sport in that time as well as asking how long he plans to continue at this position.

To me we would be better off choosing someone NOW but if he stays around for a good bit longer it would be nice to know there is a good reason for it besides he and Brian being buddies. I don't remember ever seeing Duesler or Graham go around introducing themselves and asking PROS what is is we would like to see from them and the org.

Any chance he will ever have an evaluation to see how much he has benefited the org? 5 years is a long time and it would be nice to have an idea as to what he has brought to our sport in that time as well as asking how long he plans to continue at this position.

To me we would be better off choosing someone NOW but if he stays around for a good bit longer it would be nice to know there is a good reason for it besides he and Brian being buddies. I don't remember ever seeing Duesler or Graham go around introducing themselves and asking PROS what is is we would like to see from them and the org.

Any chance he has had regular evaluations to see how he has benefited the org? Any chance he and Brian are not buddies? Any chance they have asked many what they would like to see and you just missed it? Any chance the length of his tenure and future plans have been discussed?

You make a lot of assumptions here that are not based on fact or knowledge, and then paint those into a rather poor picture (i.e. "the only reason this person who has never been evaluated in 5 years and who has never asked anyone what they want still has a job is because he and Brian are buddies"). Its very poor form and rather boorish. But let me try it once:

"Perhaps your upcoming change in education status has you asking self serving questions?"

Any chance he has had regular evaluations to see how he has benefited the org? Any chance he and Brian are not buddies? Any chance they have asked many what they would like to see and you just missed it? Any chance the length of his tenure and future plans have been discussed?

You make a lot of assumptions here that are not based on fact or knowledge, and then paint those into a rather poor picture (i.e. "the only reason this person who has never been evaluated in 5 years and who has never asked anyone what they want still has a job is because he and Brian are buddies"). Its very poor form and rather boorish. But let me try it once:

"Perhaps your upcoming change in education status has you asking self serving questions?"


I have to assume because to my knowledge no evaluation has been posted but that doesn't mean one has ever been given. I guess there is a chance they aren't buddies but that would mean Mr. Graham is a fibber.

The events I have seen Mr. Duesler and Graham at they have gone around introducing themselves but I haven't ever seen them ask the Pro Membership what they would like to see as opposed to the AM members. It has already been seen in surveys that the Pro side has a different mind set on many issues and maybe these should be accounted for more often.


The only assumption was that an evaluation had not already been given since I have no clue but haven't ever seen one.


Oh and I am renewing once again as opposed to Jeff's great alternative of just leaving the org. Seems to me if he didn't like the people in office by that reasoning he would just stop voting.

Any chance he has had regular evaluations to see how he has benefited the org? Any chance he and Brian are not buddies? Any chance they have asked many what they would like to see and you just missed it? Any chance the length of his tenure and future plans have been discussed?

Excellent questions, Tim! Answers to these, posted by the ED or an official spokesperson from the PDGA would go a long way in reassuring us naysayers that the PDGA is doing what is best for the entire organization.

I have to assume because to my knowledge no evaluation has been posted but that doesn't mean one has ever been given. I guess there is a chance they aren't buddies but that would mean Mr. Graham is a fibber.

The events I have seen Mr. Duesler and Graham at they have gone around introducing themselves but I haven't ever seen them ask the Pro Membership what they would like to see as opposed to the AM members. It has already been seen in surveys that the Pro side has a different mind set on many issues and maybe these should be accounted for more often.


The only assumption was that an evaluation had not already been given since I have no clue but haven't ever seen one.


Oh and I am renewing once again as opposed to Jeff's great alternative of just leaving the org. Seems to me if he didn't like the people in office by that reasoning he would just stop voting.

No you don't have to asssume. That is the point. An inflamatory statement that isn't based on fact such as "Any chance he will ever have an evaluation to see how much he has benefited the org" is poor form and plain rude.

Excellent questions, Tim! Answers to these, posted by the ED or an official spokesperson from the PDGA would go a long way in reassuring us naysayers that the PDGA is doing what is best for the entire organization.

I believe the ED already expressed his views on the subject of our current Marketing Director. As for the reviewing process and so on, since this is an appointed position it would be a matter between the person holding the postion and those who are responsible for oversight of the role.

Yes, Tim. We have established that Brian Graham's personal opinion is that Dr. Duesler is a friend of his and is not racist and they have traveled alot together.

Soooo........

Any chance he has had regular evaluations to see how he has benefited the org? Any chance he and Brian are not buddies? Any chance they have asked many what they would like to see and you just missed it? Any chance the length of his tenure and future plans have been discussed?

Excellent questions, Tim! Answers to these, posted by the ED or an official spokesperson from the PDGA would go a long way in reassuring us naysayers that the PDGA is doing what is best for the entire organization.

Been mentioned above in enough ways that I won't even try again. I'd rather try to teach pigs to sing. Best summed up a few posts up:



The official position of the PDGA is: John Duesler is the Marketing Director.

If you can't understand that, there is nothing anyone can do to help you.

Time to get over it.

No you don't have to asssume. That is the point. An inflamatory statement that isn't based on fact such as "Any chance he will ever have an evaluation to see how much he has benefited the org" is poor form and plain rude.


Actually that sentence was based on the fact I haven't seen or heard of any evaluation. I feel all appointed positions should have a bi-annual evaluation and would assume the PDGA wants to keep those on the payroll working as efficiently as possible.

Actually that sentence was based on the fact I haven't seen or heard of any evaluation. I feel all appointed positions should have a bi-annual evaluation and would assume the PDGA wants to keep those on the payroll working as efficiently as possible.

That is about the most blatant example of 'chin-boogie' I have seen in awhile. Perhaps politics should be your subject of study.

You statement implied there hasn't ever been a review. You do not know this as fact. You can try to explain it by stating that you based it on the fact that the sky looks blue to you if you wish, but your statement itself is still not based in fact.

Nice try, still poor form.

Excellent parallel. Do you think if Ari Fleischer, Scott McClellan, Tony Snow, Dana Perino, or Bob Gibbs had stirred up a poop-storm with public comments as insensitive & downright stupid (not to mention media non-savvy) as Dr. Duesler's that any of the 5 wouldn't be out on his arse before the ink was dry on the papers reporting it?

Shirley you jest? There are dozens of examples of this, and quite frankly our media is quite forgiving. These guys were bad at best, dishonest at worst. They are rarely held accountable. You are holding John to a higher standard�
If we can't hold a paid office-holder of the org to a higher standard, how can we expect to hold Matt Hall to one?

Went looking for this thread and it seems to have vanished. Unfortunately the results associated with the director on Google haven't.

How long is the contract? 5 years? Or until he feels like moving on?


Also How many names do I need on a petition to get the PDGA to "discuss" my $1 idea? Would 1000 be enough?

Went looking for this thread and it seems to have vanished.

Looks like someone needs to brush up on how to use the search function. :D

Looks like someone needs to brush up on how to use the search function. :D

Any reason it wasn't listed like normal? It didn't show up on the 1st page and there wasn't a 2nd to click and look on for older threads. Then I finally realized you have to change the tas at the bottom of the page instead.


Good luck at all the PDGA events you attend this year Jeff!

So during my Phestivus celebration, I managed to get disc golf some publicity on the Miami 11:00 news. Not good with links. Justnews.com, search phish, phish fans catch phish in miami.

BTW, the night was just beginning when he grabbed me for the interview. Tradewinds/Ft. Pierce/Easterlin/Indian Hammocks/Amelia during the day, and phish at night for four days.

http://www.justnews.com/video/22077348/index.html

So if you want to watch the Memorial live via Todocast it will cost you $10.

Come on Duesler, get some outside sponsorship! Continually having the player base pay for everything isn't going to grow our sport. As it is now, EVERYTHING comes from the players.

He said that $2500 of prizes will be given away during the broadcast so that's pretty decent sponsorship. If our player base won't even sign up, why would you expect our non-core player base to do so? Sponsors will be looking for signs that both competitive players and casual players are willing to pay to watch.

Sorry, I didn't say that I wouldn't sign up, as I plan on it. I was just thinking to myself, Marketing Director and his solution is to charge the player base?

He has been Marketing Director for how long now and he has brought what deals to the table? The only deals I have seen are discounts for hotels and cars. While this may help a very small group of players, it is not a national sponsorship. Those discounts were no more than the regular Joe could get on his own. A marketing Director should bring in more sponsorship than his salary, has that happened?

I'm just not sure how well the response will be. I know for USDGC it was good but that is our sports premier tournament. I jus don't see the majority of players paying $10 for pay per view. However I could be wrong, we'll just have to see.

I sent John a reply to his email to clarify a couple of points.

1. How many holes will be live?
2. Do I get to see lead card action for all 18 holes?
3. Does the money raised go toward running this internet stream, to the pdga, to the tournament purse?

I have no problem paying $10 (or even $20), but I want to know what I'm paying for before I sign up.

what money there is in disc golf is chump change in the overall scheme of things. as long as 9 of 10 tournaments (low ball estimate) are played in multi-use public space aside playgrounds disc golf will remain perceived as a playground activity. realize that this is the context and perception that the marketing director has to deal with.

get used to it.

realize that this is the context and perception that the marketing director has to deal with.
get used to it.


Sounds like that there is no need for a Marketing Director, if this cannot be overcome.

Sorry, I didn't say that I wouldn't sign up, as I plan on it. I was just thinking to myself, Marketing Director and his solution is to charge the player base?

He has been Marketing Director for how long now and he has brought what deals to the table? The only deals I have seen are discounts for hotels and cars. While this may help a very small group of players, it is not a national sponsorship. Those discounts were no more than the regular Joe could get on his own. A marketing Director should bring in more sponsorship than his salary, has that happened?

I'm just not sure how well the response will be. I know for USDGC it was good but that is our sports premier tournament. I jus don't see the majority of players paying $10 for pay per view. However I could be wrong, we'll just have to see.


What marketing experience do you have to be dragging down another person's hard work? As someone who has the education background in sports administration, getting "entry fees" from fans is a strong foundational method for successfully raising money for the organization or event, but it is only one method as there are many others. An organization or event is only as strong as it's fan base and the financial support from this fan base. Sponsors look for numbers in loyal fans/fanbase etc, one being paying fans. Ball Golf makes a ton of it's money from the fans who pay $30-150 dollars to watch. If disc golfers like us can't fork over $10-50 bucks to help our sport grow to the point where sponsors do start giving big money, then we will never grow mainstream. You think sponsors gonna hand disc golf a silver spoon without us working hard for it? please man, think first...

What marketing experience do you have to be dragging down another person's hard work? As someone who has the education background in sports administration, getting "entry fees" from fans is a strong foundational method for successfully raising money for the organization or event, but it is only one method as there are many others. An organization or event is only as strong as it's fan base and the financial support from this fan base. Sponsors look for numbers in loyal fans/fanbase etc, one being paying fans. Ball Golf makes a ton of it's money from the fans who pay $30-150 dollars to watch. If disc golfers like us can't fork over $10-50 bucks to help our sport grow to the point where sponsors do start giving big money, then we will never grow mainstream. You think sponsors gonna hand disc golf a silver spoon without us working hard for it? please man, think first...

Welcome to the forum, snap! Well said sir, well said.

Why then not offer a deal to members who have already put in a lot of $$$ to the org.? Let the non-members foot the bill for this pay-per-view, and give the members a little treat to show that they are appreciated.

Don't question their marketing plan.:cool:

Personally I've thought it's sad that our main "event" the USDGC is held on a piece of property where cars are driving by baskets and ob has to be fabricated.

The grandaddy of all events should be played in a locale that caters to disc golf and disc golfers only...ie.. Marshall Street.

Is the 10 bucks just for this event, or for all events that may be televised this year. Forgive me for my ignorance/incompetence

Just pony up the scratch & we'll tell you later.

it's for the memorial only... doing this stuff aint cheap...

It's good to see people sign up for the Memorial coverage, even though they have critical views of the people making the effort and doing the work to make it happen. ESPN will find us sometime soon...

I realize this should be understood, however, I want to restate my point. I have paid $10 for the coverage for the Memorial. Just do it right. If the PDGA gets it right then positive word of mouth will bring others on board. If the coverage is weak then you will lose future support.

I realize this should be understood, however, I want to restate my point. I have paid $10 for the coverage for the Memorial. Just do it right. If the PDGA gets it right then positive word of mouth will bring others on board. If the coverage is weak then you will lose future support.


As part of the 'on air staff' I'd like to say THANKS to everyone that has already signed up and supported this Live coverage event at The Memorial Championship. Ultimately this will cost tens of thousands of dollars just to bring you a few days of coverage. However, we are passionate about the project and the residual outcomes that are likely to follow (additional broadcasts, major media exposure, securing other sponsors, etc.)

As a guy that is 'in the know' but one that still doesn't 'know it all' - the PDGA is NOT underwriting this broadcast! Of course they are supporting it and doing what they can to help us but the cost of this broadcast falls squarely on the shoulders of www.DiscGolfPlanet.tv. The broadcast is not draining PDGA funds or tournament funds. This is why it is so critical everyone else helps us out with a very fair priced, pay-per-view arrangement.

We will strive to bring you the best coverage possible. It's that simple.

Quick tip: If you signed up to watch the USDGC footage and you wish to watch The Memorial broadcast simply click on the 'login' portion of the site and go from there. If you didn't create an account for the USDGC then click on the 'create new account' link on the top. The $9.99 pricing is only guaranteed through Friday, Feb 5th!

http://discgolfplanet.tv/memorial/index.php

*My statements here may not be the official stance of the entire DiscGolfPlanet.tv organization - they are simply what I know and wish to share and clarify for the rest of you.

As part of the 'on air staff' I'd like to say THANKS to everyone that has already signed up and supported this Live coverage event at The Memorial Championship. Ultimately this will cost tens of thousands of dollars just to bring you a few days of coverage. However, we are passionate about the project and the residual outcomes that are likely to follow (additional broadcasts, major media exposure, securing other sponsors, etc.)

As a guy that is 'in the know' but one that still doesn't 'know it all' - the PDGA is NOT underwriting this broadcast! Of course they are supporting it and doing what they can to help us but the cost of this broadcast falls squarely on the shoulders of www.DiscGolfPlanet.tv. The broadcast is not draining PDGA funds or tournament funds. This is why it is so critical everyone else helps us out with a very fair priced, pay-per-view arrangement.

We will strive to bring you the best coverage possible. It's that simple.

Quick tip: If you signed up to watch the USDGC footage and you wish to watch The Memorial broadcast simply click on the 'login' portion of the site and go from there. If you didn't create an account for the USDGC then click on the 'create new account' link on the top. The $9.99 pricing is only guaranteed through Friday, Feb 5th!

http://discgolfplanet.tv/memorial/index.php

*My statements here may not be the official stance of the entire DiscGolfPlanet.tv organization - they are simply what I know and wish to share and clarify for the rest of you.

I appreciate your explanation about the PDGA is not underwriting the coverage. With that clarification, I still will hold the PDGA mostly responsible because they are in charge of contracting with the discgolfplanet company. This coverage is a good example of a similiar arrangement when the PDGA paid the(company, I can't remember the name) to provide marketing and aquire sponsorships. The PDGA did take action and end their business relationship with that company when it didn't produce what is said it would. If anything I stated isn't correct, please provide information to correct any misinformation.

I know I'm not an expert with how to produce the best coverage but following the two male open lead groups on most holes with good camera angles would make me happy.

I appreciate your explanation about the PDGA is not underwriting the coverage. With that clarification, I still will hold the PDGA mostly responsible because [...]

I know I'm not an expert with how to produce the best coverage but following the two male open lead groups on most holes with good camera angles would make me happy.

A nice illustration of two major components of complaints aired on this message board:

1) "While I know so and so isn't responsible, I still hold them accountable." This attitude is often found alongside, "Someone else will take care of it."

2) The other is the old "I know you're the expert and you're doing your best, but you should do it my way."

A nice illustration of two major components of complaints aired on this message board:

1) "While I know so and so isn't responsible, I still hold them accountable." This attitude is often found alongside, "Someone else will take care of it."

2) The other is the old "I know you're the expert and you're doing your best, but you should do it my way."

bcary, I think you generalizing my comment to what others air on this message board is somewhat of a reach. How do you make it jump from suggestions to complaints. What party is accountable? I don't understand what the "someone else take care of it" comment is suppose to mean. If it implies that do something about it yourself if you don't think it is right then I can comment on that. Lastly, you only take parts of my message to make your point. It seems to me many companies want to satisfy their paying customers. I enjoy the discussion.

A nice illustration of two major components of complaints aired on this message board:

1) "While I know so and so isn't responsible, I still hold them accountable." This attitude is often found alongside, "Someone else will take care of it."

2) The other is the old "I know you're the expert and you're doing your best, but you should do it my way."

How about the other common complaint on the message board:

"If the Swedish camera crew calls it their baby, let them do the coverage"

It seems to me many companies want to satisfy their paying customers.

Members of the PDGA are not paying customers. They do not purchase a product or service, they pay annual dues.

Members of the PDGA are not paying customers. They do not purchase a product or service, they pay annual dues.

I was referring to both Discgolfplanet and the PDGA. Specifically, I have paid the $10 for my product from discgolfplanet. Additionally, I do consider that I'm paying for a service with my PDGA dues.

Anyone else have problems signing up for the coverage today?

Problematic, buggy registering ----> seamless, bug-free actual coverage?

Problematic, buggy registering ----> seamless, bug-free actual coverage?

Just got me a new Facebook "Friend"and it looks like he even has a PhD.

bcary, I think you generalizing my comment to what others air on this message board is somewhat of a reach.

I pointed at your comments as examples of the kinds of complaints that are so often aired here. They are of a class.

The two key components are that PDGA can be held responsible (i.e. blame "them") for anything one chooses to. This is a common theme running thru many complaints you can view in theses forums. (See also the lovely Jack Handey quote on the same subject.)

The other is in the same class as the back seat driver, the arm chair quarterback, the bar stool politician, and in this case, the message board know-it-all. These are the complaints that suggest the person under criticism can't do anything right and if they just "did it my way" then things would be peachy. (See also Dr Seuss' "If I Ran the Zoo")

Nothing personal.

I was told recently that Southern Nationals has at least $25,000 for the Pro Championships with I'm sure nearly twice as much for the Am Championships.

Why is it they can raise this kind of money for their showcase event when the PDGA can't raise half that much for Worlds?

Why is it they can raise this kind of money for their showcase event when the PDGA can't raise half that much for Worlds?

Because that's all Southern Nationals was designed to do: it's merely a series of tournaments that concludes with a finals, whose payout is subsidized by the qualifier tournaments.

The PDGA, on the other hand, does a hundred far more important things with member money, nearly all of which help to actually grow the sport of disc golf.

I was told recently that Southern Nationals has at least $25,000 for the Pro Championships with I'm sure nearly twice as much for the Am Championships.

Why is it they can raise this kind of money for their showcase event when the PDGA can't raise half that much for Worlds?

So, luckily we don't even have to wait long to see examples of both of my points fully illustrated in another whiney post:

Case #1 - PDGA is responsible to fund the World Championships. This is actually the responsibility of the TD, although the PDGA helps the TD. (See also Jack Handey)

Case #2 - Southern Nationals can do it, so why can't PDGA. This is just an different shade of "They can't do anything right. Do it my way and we'll have World Peace and huge payouts in my division." (See also Dr Seuss' "If I Ran the Zoo")

Thanks man, for providing such excellent examples of my thesis.

So, luckily we don't even have to wait long to see examples of both of my points fully illustrated in another whiney post:

Case #1 - PDGA is responsible to fund the World Championships. This is actually the responsibility of the TD, although the PDGA helps the TD. (See also Jack Handey)

Case #2 - Southern Nationals can do it, so why can't PDGA. This is just an different shade of "They can't do anything right. Do it my way and we'll have World Peace and huge payouts in my division." (See also Dr Seuss' "If I Ran the Zoo")

Thanks man, for providing such excellent examples of my thesis.


I see it as the PDGA taking credit when they want and saying they have nothing to do with the event when they feel it is expedient.

The PDGA's name is directly linked with Worlds unlike any other event so it would seem they have a bigger responsibility to this event than numerous other events which they just sanction.

The PDGA says they sponsor Worlds but I find this hard to believe when they give $10,000 just to take half the profits from the end of the event. If the event was the responsibility of the TD and CLub only some of our past Worlds events would have been even better then they were (2004) but they currently have to deal with the PDGA being the final decider.

I still haven't received one answer as to why the PDGA WORLD Championships pays out weaker for 90% of the players than even a local B-tier?

In a 20 player B-tier 4th place will AT LEAST Double more likely Triple their $70 entry fee.

A worlds that same player would be lucky to get his $230 entry fee back which makes pretty much every Pro who attends wonder if we can do something to improve it. I think my views are more common than you want to believe and players have started deciding to not attend the event due to the fact there is little improvement.

Worlds in 94' Payed out better than 09' and 2001' Worlds was still the "pentacle" even though the PDGA has twice as many members now.

Vibram and USDGC are my 1st choices this year with Worlds on the backburner due to the cost of the trip with your only chance to break even meaning shooting 1035 for 8 rounds. Vibram has WAY better payouts and USDGC is a WAY better experience and my frustration comes from the fact I think the WORLD Championships should be at least on the same level if not better than these two.

Matt - Here is a free tip.

Your posts would be better if they included FACTS.

20th place at last years Worlds got $463. Not "lucky to get his $230 entry fee back" as you incorrectly claim.

You were 34th. And you got your $230 entry fee back.

When people see your made up "facts" they discount the rest of your points as well.

Clarification:
In a 20 player B-tier 4th place will AT LEAST Double more likely Triple their $70 entry fee.
4th out of 20 = 80th percentile (200% - 300% of $70 entry fee, per the_kid's assertion)

20th place at last years Worlds got $463.
T19th out of 129 = 84th percentile & cashed $463 (201.3% of $230 entry fee)

A worlds that same player would be lucky to get his $230 entry fee back
T25th out of 129 = 79th percentile & cashed $320 (139.1% of $230 entry fee, to compare apples to apples)

Remember that when added cash is involved, payouts are richer when the turnout is smaller.

Remember that when added cash is involved, payouts are richer when the turnout is smaller.

The entries added up to $70,000 and the total payout was $83,000. The PDGA put in $10,000 in "sponsorship" meaning only $3000 cash sponsorship was added by other entities which is pretty sad.

AM Worlds gets tons of merch from the disc companies and most of those guys walk away with more disc value than we do cash and that is after paying 1/2 to get in what we do.

I still love how each stroke at Worlds in the middle of the pack means maybe $5

I see it as . . .

Six of one . . .

The entries added up to $70,000 and the total payout was $83,000. The PDGA put in $10,000 in "sponsorship" meaning only $3000 cash sponsorship was added by other entities which is pretty sad.


How convenient to forget the Pro player pack valued around $115 for an additional Pro "payout" of at least $37,600. Apparently this $37,000 in sponsorship by "other entities" doesn't count because it didn't come in the form of cash. How sad.

Given the unending amount of complaining by some Pro players, why on Earth would any company want to give cash or merchandise to such an ungrateful group of entitled players?

Or forget the player’s parties, other amenities or covering some of the additional expenses that putting together an event on the scale of the Worlds incurs vs. other tournaments.

IMO, anyone making comparisons of cash payout alone of Worlds vs. the cash payout of other tournaments is already comparing apples to oranges.

Given the unending amount of complaining by some Pro players, why on Earth would any company want to give cash or merchandise to such an ungrateful group of entitled players?

Discette, how dare you try to apply logic, reason, and common sense to this argument - they have no place here.

Despite just leaving the basement of the previous Executive Director 5 years ago, the sport should already be rich enough to have six figure payouts at all Major events. There should be enough money to cover all the expenses of dozens of touring Pros. Even in these tough economic times, disc manufacturers and sponsors should be lining up to throw their "disposable funds" towards our top players. The marketing director should simply be able to snap his fingers and make all of this magically happen.

Because that's the way it happens in every other fledgling sport, right Matt?

Discette, how dare you try to apply logic, reason, and common sense to this argument - they have no place here.



Sorry. I will try to remember that when making comments. :o

Despite just leaving the basement of the previous Executive Director's basement 5 years ago

wow, the basement of the basement... That puts it in perspective.

Discette, how dare you try to apply logic, reason, and common sense to this argument - they have no place here.

Despite just leaving the basement of the previous Executive Director's basement 5 years ago, the sport should already be rich enough to have six figure payouts at all Major events. There should be enough money to cover all the expenses of dozens of touring Pros. Even in these tough economic times, disc manufacturers and sponsors should be lining up to throw their "disposable funds" towards our top players. The marketing director should simply be able to snap his fingers and make all of this magically happen.

Because that's the way it happens in every other fledgling sport, right Matt?

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions that are intended to improve something. It should be given in a polite and helpful manner, rather than an oppositional one, and is usually backed up with an offer of possible solutions. It should not attack the recipients� traits, character, affiliations, spelling, grammar or, even minor misconceptions that are moot to the central point.