well maybe not the putt :o



Was Atwood the only player to take a 4 without having to re-tee and no OBs ? :D

Oh ok Jim, the one I found is solid blue and was laying out on the football field. Are you planning a return to Live Oak in the near future, or maybe one of your friends? I didnt want to say anything about finding a wildcat on the driving range, because these guys wouldnt let me hear the end of it ;)

so is it now the " where's my blue wildcat competition" :D

No, it will forever be the "Where's My Red Wildcat" Long Drive Competition. :)

Why?

Because the "Chris Ware Where's My Red Wildcat Long Drive Competition" was just too long. ;)

:cool:

I'm doing this for all the divisions, just for giggles, but I thought I'd let you guys take a look at the Open scores first. I'll leave it up to the large number of people who are smarter than me to determine just what these numbers mean. :)


The Island of Doom
Live Oak Lake Course #4
224' from the tee downhill
50' wide x 50' deep safe zone

Open 15 Players x 2*

Low Score - 2
High Score - 8
Average Score - 3.06

# of 2's - 17
# of 3's - 4
# of 4's - 4
# of 5's - 0
# of 6's - 2
# of 7's - 1
# of 8's - 1

* 1 Player dropped out and
only played the hole once,
and carded a birdie.

What? Where are all those statistical guys? Bueller? Bueller?

What the above info says to me is that this is a fair and just hole. It averaged par. Three of the guys who took bogey or worse on it for the weekend were in the cash at the end, including one player who was in the lead after the round in which he took a bogey on it and finished tied for the best round in the division that round. Although it had the potential to be a round killer, it wasn't a tournament killer.

Here's the MA1 breakdown.

Advanced Men 24 Players x 2

Low Score - 2
High Score - 9
Average Score - 3.83

# of 2's - 22
#of 3's - 6
# of 4's - 5
# of 5's - 2
# of 6's - 5
# of 7's - 4
# of 8's - 2
# of 9's - 2

So, Advanced guys played it almost a stroke harder. That makes sense to me. A tough and round defining hole being played nearly a stroke better on average by Pros than by Advanced doesn't seem abnormal to me at all.

Discuss amongst yourselves. ;)

More to come.

The extra stroke difference? I just assume the advanced field didn't have enough 13 year olds who could barely reach the hole. :p

Although it had the potential to be a round killer, it wasn't a tournament killer.



LIAR!!! :D

Although it had the potential to be a round killer, it wasn't a tournament killer.



LIAR!!! :D



Okay, well maybe in a couple of cases. :)

There was one other guy who pulled the old "birdie to quintuple bogey" trick and still finished in the cash. What did you do on the other 70 holes? :)

I think what I'd like to see most is safe landing percentages. This isn't data that you would have from the scorecards.

If it is assumed that all 3's landed on the island and 2 putted and that everyone that took a 4 and over missed landing on the island at least once, this would mean that

MPO's went 21-12 (.636) from the teebox.
MA1's went 28-20 (.583) from the teebox.

It's possible that someone could successfully land on the island and then 3 putt to card a 4. It's possible that someone could successfully land on the island and then go OB on a putt to card a 4 or higher.

I would hope that as you go down through the skill levels you see the percentages drop. If not, move up BAGGERS! :)

I did it the other way around....8 on Saturday, 2 on Sunday.

As for the other 70 holes.....some were good, some notso good.

Sorry TB, wasn't trying to be harsh there. And keep the sand outta your new wheels. :)

I like those Lou, but they still bear out what I think about the hole. Over half the Pro throwers landed safe. Does that sound like an unfair hole?

I love the hole. I dont find it harsh or unfair. The first round I got a circle 4 the next round a 3. If someone has a problem throwing a 200 foot hole with accuracy I think they need to take it up with themselves. Bring on the island hole LOSO III.

When I made the post about pro whiners, it was only in response to one poster who kept berating the fact that the hole was unfair.

An opinion is when a person gives a statement, whether for or against a given topic and then lets the powers to be make the final decision. In the case of the poster that I was refering to, he gave a good opinion and then a possible solution. That should have been enough said. But when the poster then comes back and all he is doing is being negative and berating the subject, that is when he becomes a whiner.

Mark asked for opinions and for the majority of the posts it has been what he has gotten, both for and against.

One post against with a possible solution does not make for a whiner, but for good debate. More posts(negative with same solution stated as before) by the same poster makes for a whiner.

As for the 13 year old who didn't make it, he usually does make it when playing in league or casual, but the mental aspect of this being a hole where there is OB got to him. The mental aspect of the game comes as a learning experience, which he will get and when he does, look out. I would hope that as 20+ year olds(some of us alot more) out there that we already have that mental aspect of our game.

Just my opnion

subject over!!!
everyone should get over it

everyone should get over it



or on it as it were :D

It shouldn't be over yet, Vinnie. I'd like to see the results for the rest of the divisions. I really want to see how bad it gets for the inconsistent players like myself. :)

Aw, c'mon V-man, don't bail on me. I just wanted to see a little spirited discussion on a hole that everyone has an opinion on.

Don't worry The Hottness, I'm working up the rest of the divisions, but I had a few things to do that distracted me for a bit. I'll try to post some more before I go pick up the squid.

world peace out of control and you all want to worry about what some rec. player through on a golf hole.
Tell you want why don't you all worry about how you all (and I mean everyone) can support OUTLAWS :D

yea Nelle a difference in round rating from 950 to a 889 is no big deal, I earned it!

Thanks Mark, my son will appreciate not having my poor performance on his player rating! see ya in Victoria, you are playing masters there right! You should be able to compete against a 48 year old that shoots below 900!

Only if I shoot over 900. :)

I still want that shot I had at getting you on the Golden Beast. We have unfinished business, sir. :)

do you accept rec money?

No Matchu, he doesn't. :)

yeah, apparently "some rec player" isn't even worth considering as a part of the tournament. I guess vinnie was a pro the first time he picked up a disc, and so should everyone else be. In fact, why do anyone but pros play? The rest of the divisions are just better off watching than playing. Forget charity or promoting the sport. Forget about learning the true spirit of competition (I can think of a couple pros who still need to learn that).

This is just a symptom of a problem that plagues our sport. Some of the better players need to quit whining and quit belittling those who play lower divisions. These events are NOT supported by Pros alone. It's such a shame to see this crap. Not like it's the first time, either.

Crap, here we go.

Okay, look, V-man doesn't need me to defend him, but since he's a friend of mine and I have had enough long talks with him on this subject, let me ad my $.02.

I don't agree with him on his stance on Rec divisions in his events, but Outlaws is his event and that's the way he wants to run it. His view is that people hide in Rec and that doesn't help them or the sport. (Please correct me if that's not right Vinnie.)

He may be right and he may be wrong. But its his show.

Now, back to your LOSO Island of Doom debate. :)

go to bed

Is this going to be a subject every year :confused: I agree to disagree with Vinnie(believe me that there have been MANY conversations on this subject) and that is where it ends.........If you have a problem with the way he runs a tourney, DON'T GO. Outlaws is one of the richest events in TX and has always been run without a flaw. Like I have been seeing allot lately with the TX schedule, there are other choices and supposedly competion is a good thing :confused: :D

BTW.... WARE......Shut your ARSE :cool::p

Not that anyone cares, but I've played hole #4 four times and have carded nothing but 2's all four times (LOSO 1 and LOSO 2) and no I'm no pro. Is that luck? If so I should have bought a lotto ticket. :D

The hole stays!!

I care, Turbo. :)

And Ware, I did go to bed. Couldn't sleep. I'm back. :)

I don't agree with him on his stance on Rec divisions in his events, but Outlaws is his event and that's the way he wants to run it. His view is that people hide in Rec and that doesn't help them or the sport. (Please correct me if that's not right Vinnie.)

He may be right and he may be wrong. But its his show.

Now, back to your LOSO Island of Doom debate. :)



point made, point taken... but you should note that I wasn't talking about outlaws. I was talking about the comments about how "some rec player threw a hole" (spelling corrected). Of course I also object to any tournament which discourages new players from competing. Anyone in his right mind would. I also agree with V that some players do hide in the lower divisions. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't the PDGA rules allow a TD to force a player to move up as he sees fit? Of course you can't make anyone play pro vs. am, but isn't it possible to force a player into MA2 or MA1 if the TD has personal knowledge of the player's skill? Hell, I'm rated 859, but I've been playing MA1 lately. I obviously don't hide in any division, but that's not the point. Rather than just disrespecting a division as a whole, couldn't he just force the few baggers up?

Regardless, the attitude towards Recs and Ams in general has been.... let's say "less than respectful" on his part. He's not the only one, either.

Josh, I knew what you were referring too. Why do you always assume I'm not on the same page as you? :)

As for your point about forcing a player up, uh-uh. If a player has a PDGA rating that allows him/her to play in a Rec division, the TD is required to allow him/her to play in the division of their choice for which they qualify.

grrrrrr!
Look!
Hell no I ain't even going to waste my time!
I do want to say I don't discourage new players....there is a time and a place for all people

If a player has a PDGA rating that allows him/her to play in a Rec division, the TD is required to allow him/her to play in the division of their choice for which they qualify.




I should've added to that, "...if the division for which they qualify is offered at that particular event." I was just explaing it to Josh, not implying anything to Vinnie.

Don't grrrr at me, bull. :)

One more thing. (Why the hell am I defending Vinnie? Must not be enough oxygen to the brain this morning. :D)

Don't ever think that he doesn't encourage new players. There was once this guy who knew nothing about disc golf and made some phone calls to contacts he'd discovered locally trying to track down info on the sport and what it took to play, build a course, what the rules were...basically everything and knew nothing.

Vinnie invited him out for a doubles mini, partnered with him, taught him things about shots, discs, rules, other players and hole design.

That guy is now a full time TD, promoter, organizer, course designer and a player who plays many events all over.

Oh yeah, he's also the #1 poster of all time on the message board.

Vinnie always encourages new players. Thanks bro. Sorry this hubbub got started on my thread. :)

thanks mark.

Not that anyone cares, but I've played hole #4 four times and have carded nothing but 2's all four times (LOSO 1 and LOSO 2) and no I'm no pro. Is that luck? If so I should have bought a lotto ticket. :D

The hole stays!!



and aren't you a lefty too? :)

grrrrrr!
Look!
Hell no I ain't even going to waste my time!
I do want to say I don't discourage new players....there is a time and a place for all people



maybe vinnie just doesnt see fit to put shorty boxes out at the rock for the recs. kinda goes against the whole, "if it's too long..." :p

"...I'm too old."


But, I'll be there anyway. :D

Mr. Minella, since the Island of Doom is a signature of some Live Oak events and one of the more talked about holes on the course, what are the chances that the City could put a narrow, flat strip of concrete on the left edge of the "island" to permanently define it? That way it could be used by other leagues/minis/TD's if desired, without the hassle of always putting out a rope.

Not to mention the fact that folks would be able to visualize it and practice it the same way they'll need to play it in a certain annual summer B-tier. ;)

So you are saying it is all V's fault?

LMAO.

Yeah, y'all can partially blame Vinnie for me being unleashed on the disc golf community. :)

and I am guessing he forgot to teach you the aspects of putting :D

"...I'm too old."


But, I'll be there anyway. :D

Mr. Minella, since the Island of Doom is a signature of some Live Oak events and one of the more talked about holes on the course, what are the chances that the City could put a narrow, flat strip of concrete on the left edge of the "island" to permanently define it? That way it could be used by other leagues/minis/TD's if desired, without the hassle of always putting out a rope.

Not to mention the fact that folks would be able to visualize it and practice it the same way they'll need to play it in a certain annual summer B-tier. ;)



I like that idea, a row or two of concrete bricks. (And even a couple more to mark the DZ, for those of us who have issues )

and I am guessing he forgot to teach you the aspects of putting :D



I dunno, why don't you ask him how my "Milleresque" straddle putt has improved my game. If you make it up to my card next time, I'll let you see it.

Good cal on the DZ bricks, Tony.

Mr. LOPAR? Are you out there? :)

Actually, rev sir, I think Ruben and I deserve some credit/berating for your welcome to DG. A few years ago at Red Rock, this geeky looking newbie (they all have that deer caught in the headlights look, don't they!) who knew no one was setting up camp all alone. So Ruben and I invited him to join our camp, and the rest is history... 5000+ posts later /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I think he said he was from burnet, durnit, or some such euphemism or grandiloquence.

was he sporting that much-talked-about hair he had in his old avatar? or is that just a myth? :p

no, but he did have a guitar, and talked about being a rock star in his past :D I think he was with Pamela Lee Anderson for a short period... weren't they all?

Hey man, get off Pammy!


LMMFAO!

Yes, I do remember that BeastieBoy. But do you remember the first campsite where I met you and was introduced to the after dark tourney scene? It included the likes of Big Bird, Little Ronnie Lightning, and even Jolt dropped by for a visit. I was a tad overwhelmed, but was always made to feel welcomed.

yes, it was quite a night, and it was my birthday to boot! So were they real?

Took awhile to find this thread..From what I've read, there seems to be some issues with number 4. As I recall, it was a TD's decision back then and has taken off from there. I am not sure if and/or when the City will make it a permanent "island". This issue seems to be similar to designated mando issues. Like I said before, if it is a safety issue we will make changes, but otherwise it is up to the TDs.

This TD says it would be cool to have concrete on the left side to define the island, and it would be much safer, as we wouldn't trip over the rope :)

So were they real?




What do you think?


Hell no. :)


I had to dump her anyway, she was way too skinny for me. :)

I have never played the Isle of Doom ( I look forward to it) but I think that one of the issues that relates to "fairness" is
"What skill does the hole test?"

It sounds like the drive must skip onto the island from a concrete ditch in front to have a chance on staying in bounds(for right hand throws) If skipping is a skill (isn't it?) then I believe that IF the landing area causes two identical throws to skip consistently onto the same area (long, short or on the green) then the hole could be judged "fair" If there is no consistency to the way discs skip over, onto and short of the hole then the hole does not test skill. It is weighted more on luck.

I think James McCaine was saying that landing a drive inside a designated small area is a specific skill. and that if there is no consistency to the landing area skips, then forcing people to land their drives in a small specific area is more a test of skill

Actually you dont have to skip off of concrete in order for it to stay inbounds, you just have to aim at #5s basket, trust me I lost 1st place b/c of this hole, threw 2 shots from the tee and went OB, parked my 3rd shot to tap in for a 6 :(, to finish 3rd

Ouch!

So what skill does the hole test?

Michael, The Island of Doom actually could be said to test a few different skills, depending on which shot you throw off the tee.

Those who think that a skip shot is "the" choice here, are in my humble middle of the OMB pack opinion, clearly insane. :)

After all, why would you want to throw a shot that puts your disc into the exact motion (skipping) that is the very thing that can take you OUT of the safe landing zone. But hey, that's just me. :)

A skip shot, a thumber, grenade, a lofted putter shot right at the pin, a knife hyzer...whatever. Just make sure its something that has enough (I love this part) "emotional restraint" so that the speed of the throw, and/or the spin don't take it out. Simple, right? :)

The main skill this hole tests is the skill of not falling apart under the pressure of having to land a little throw in a specified area or repeat the process up to two more times until you do, then knowing you have to go to the drop zone and repeat the attempt an unlimited number of times until you're safe.

The Island of Doom is more a test of mental mettle than purely disc golf throws, although its certainly both.

Atxgolfer should know. His play on that as his final hole (notice I said his play not the hole) did indeed cost him a win. And...he still likes the hole. :)

That's a good testimony to the fairness of it, I'd say.

Marks right, it did cost me a win but I know what to do next year if the island hole will be in play. Sometimes you just have to learn the hard way, I lost $15,000 learning how to play roulette but I know how to play now. Its not that I like that hole so much, I like that course a lot and plan on playing it as much as possible.

Another $.02 to add to the till (pretty soon this is going to be a million dollar thread). I don't think the presence of "The island of Doom" is up for discussion anymore, but we should discuss ways to make it better. No offense, but the Hay bail idea sucks. It may work for other tournaments and other courses, but the isle of doom is what it is. It requires mental strength and the ability to control the power of your shot. You can choose what ever shot you want, you just have to use the right amount of (with credit to Vinnie) emotional restraint (that does sound good ).

The addition of a line of bricks or cement would greatly improve the hole. There were several situations over the weekend that resulted from not seeing a clear OB lie from the Tee. Having a permanent line would make the hole consistent from year to year. Putting a rope down causes the "island" to change in size and as posted before, you could trip on the rope.

Also like to congratulate Chris Garcia for keeping his streak alive�
And would also like to dub the new 11b hole �The Grinch�� it�s a mean one

Shawn, awesome play this weekend, BTW. I was happy to see it from you.

For those who are curious and to address Shawn's last point, I did discuss this on the phone with LOPAR yesterday regarding a permanently defined, flat and flush concrete line for the left side of the Island of Doom. He liked the idea and said he would be willing to run it past the powers that be today. Who knows, maybe this DISCussion will result in a more clearly defined island hole for everyone to, uh...enjoy? :)

Does anyone remember what tees were played by who for LOSO 2004? We need this info in a hurry for the ratings to be recorded. I know short tees were played, but by who? And did everyone play the island hole the same?

Pro and Advanced played all longs...

Recs and Ints?
Rec Women?

Not much help I know....

Intermediate play long? Both rounds? And did everyone play the island the same?

Intermediate play long? Both rounds? And did everyone play the island the same?



C'mon Rooster? Jim? Dave? Pellman? Michaela? Someone has to remember.....

Int played long rec men played a few short holes. I believe about three, two long ones on top where shortened and 11B and we played the island the same. (i remember cause I beat one of our intermediate players by a few strokes but had to keep my crappy tag).

The Int. men played all the long tee boxes (all concrete). Which holes have shorter tee boxes? I know we played the original concrete tee pads on 23 & 25...if any holes have shorter tee pads, I would guess it was these.

I'm also certain that the Int. men played the Island hole the same as the Adv. and Pro players.

Thanks guys.

So do you think this is correct?

Rec men and women played 15,17,23, 25 and 11b short.

And only the rec women played the island hole from the drop?

Im not sure about 17 but yes to 15 and 11b. There is one the long right turn way down hill (25?) was supposed to be played short but wasn't by Rec men. So stroke us all.

So do you think this is correct?

Rec men and women played 15,17,23, 25 and 11b short.

And only the rec women played the island hole from the drop?




Kat believes that is correct, as she recalls the Rec cards chasing the Adv. Women on the hill.

What about 24 short for all Recs?

I dont think that 24 was marked short so people didnt play it short.

Another question:

What divsions played what courses in what order?
Lake Course and City Hall Course.

Thanks for all of your help.

I am unsure myself Danielle as I did not play but I remember from Jenn in FW3 she played the Front 9 part of the course first.

I will email you Atwoods new phone number to ask him since he was the TD. Whether he will return anyones call is another matter. If you speak to him tell him he owes me a return email.

Let me know if I can help putting the PDGA report together.

Thanks
Chris

MA2 played R1 Lake, R2 City Hall, R3 City Hall, R4 Lake.

All results are in now. Thanks guys for all of the info. I appreciate it.

See you at LOSO III.

Good Work Nelle.

thanks

way go girl...I just couldn't help Chuck and you got er done. LOSO is in good hands :D

nice job !! who is running next years events ??

Yay Danielle.

nice job !! who is running next years events ??



Thats would be yours truley Mr Salazar. Mark it on your schedule!!!! July 23/24th.

nice job !! who is running next years events ??



Thats would be yours truley Mr Salazar. Mark it on your schedule!!!! July 23/24th.



done!!!!!!!!! :D:D

I see both City and Lake courses listed in the TD report but the PDGA Directory only has one 27 hole course listed for Live Oak called City Park. Is Lake an 18-hole subset of the City course or another temp layout?

normal layout is 27 holes, which is split ,then temp holes added to form 2 18 hole layouts..

Thanks. Just needed to know whether to add another course to the file to do ratings.

Way to go Danielle!!! :)