Dynamic Disc does such a great job

When I played the Worlds there in 1990, I remember seeing a sign that the pond contained non-potable water, which I thought was odd, because so does every other pond!

Does this water contain some non-treated sewage, or some other contaminants that would make it particularly hazardous?

Not sure exactly WHAT is in the water...BUT when the wind reaches a specified strength the fountian reduces its output...because the spray has been known to EAT THE PAINT off the cars adjacent to the park.

DOH!

Gives a whole new meaning to skinny dipping.

So what happened to Bradley Williams? He got arrested so he can�t play? Wow.
Ok not to be an arguer, but I�m just saying Life is a circle, I don�t know what happened as I wasn�t there, but Life gives back what you give it. The guy (even thought a good player) has a really bad attitude and cares for no one...his nick name is the "Cactus" because of the prick he chooses to be. I�m sure if he was a "regular" friendly guy who was liked, like most of us players, all friends... then he would have, could have received help from someone. But if you go around pissing everyone off and making a bad name for yourself, then you screw up, do you really expect someone to help him?
I know we should, but you have to show your self friendly to actually have FRIENDS. I�m not saying he deservers this, I don�t which that on anyone, But Life is a circle and things in life will catch up with you. It our decision whether the things in Life that catch up to us are Positive / or / Negative ? We make that Choice.....

jeez. Keep it to yourself. Brad is a good kid and the cactus thing is pretty much a joke

So what happened to Bradley Williams? He got arrested so he can�t play? Wow.
Ok not to be an arguer, but I�m just saying Life is a circle, I don�t know what happened as I wasn�t there, but Life gives back what you give it. The guy (even thought a good player) has a really bad attitude and cares for no one...his nick name is the "Cactus" because of the prick he chooses to be. I�m sure if he was a "regular" friendly guy who was liked, like most of us players, all friends... then he would have, could have received help from someone. But if you go around pissing everyone off and making a bad name for yourself, then you screw up, do you really expect someone to help him?
I know we should, but you have to show your self friendly to actually have FRIENDS. I�m not saying he deservers this, I don�t which that on anyone, But Life is a circle and things in life will catch up with you. It our decision whether the things in Life that catch up to us are Positive / or / Negative ? We make that Choice.....


C'mon have you even played with Brad? Those of us who play with him realize he doesn't have a bad attitude just a strange sense of humor.

And yes...Brad does have friends. He is a focused player and not as social as many would hope but once you get to know him and his dynamic personality he is pretty cool. He's not for the thin skinned personalities though that is for sure. This circle you speak of just swollowed you with your own comments.

If your out there Brad...that really sucks. Let me know the real story when you get back in town. Your not the first disc golfer to get a DUI..that's for sure. Maybe your story will help others make better choices in the future. Hey!...imagine that. Brad is teaching ethics and life lessons and doesn't even know it.

Well so far it sounds like there's a bunch of clowns playing disc golf in the desert.

Go Cale!

the glory of teh internets!

anyways. this is great coverage and I cant wait to watch the rest today.

How about Rob Ryan shooting rd 2s hot round and lapping the field by 3 shots?
Master's leader now with the same -16 score as open leader.

Live video coverage is awesome. My only gripe is that it appears that much of the video is shot in 4:3, but displayed in 16:9, so everything is stretched horizontally. Am I the only one noticing this?

yeh Brad is a good guy, sorry I didnt mean anything bad. And yes I have played plaenty or rounds with him.

The coverage has been great to wathc. I love how it keeps progressing. I would enjoy having the Disc the player throws displayed before they throw, and even distances they throw when they are odne, that would be cool.

123456789

Des fires off a 57 to get a 2 stroke lead! Keep it up!!!!

Anthon torches Fountain for a 41 and an 1109 unofficial round rating, beating Climo and Feldberg by 3 shots with their 44s "only" rated at 1081!

http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=9642&year=2010&include_ratings=1#Open

wow great scores, I love the amazing competition we have. Disc Golf is so great to play and watch, there are so many highly competitve and close players right now. any given day its any bodys game....
it looks like you can tear it up at Memorail just totally zone out the water and have no fear....

Anthon killed it today.I bet Nikko comes back and wins.

1109 is pretty good

Pretty as in? There's some PRETTY fat girls or there's some pretty FAT girls...you know what I mean!

Thank you 3 for defending me. Lets set the story straight. Alex and I wanted to have dinner after the first round, we got 2 free beer tickets in our players pack for the players party at Dukes. During the 4 hour dinner I had 5 beers, when we left I turned out of Dukes and caught the curb with my rear tire. The Officer followed me for 3 miles then pulled me over for reckless driving. That led to the normally questions and a breathe test. Barley over .08 gets you straight to jail with a 1000$ bail. 30 days of jail and 3000$ in fines.

Lesson is never to drink in drive, but in scottsdale the DUI laws just seem like a racket.

climo the man-machine just keeps motoring along.

incredible.

well Im just saying that, why are 2 guys that play a wonderful sport for a living struggling with so much bottled up anger???
seriously what would they do if they have a desk job or a normal job like the rest of us, I feel so bad for the stressful life they must lead.
Traveling the road playing Disc Golf around America. wow must be stressful.

Until you've walked in another mans shoes, you can only imagine.

The Am tee times posted earlier have CHANGED! We are going to start at 7:00am a half hour earlier so more amateurs can get out and watch the Pro's. This was the start time listed in the program, but there was an error when uploading. The correct times are posted now.

Until you've walked in another mans shoes, you can only imagine.

Gotta agree with Big Dave here.

After my 1st trip to the Memorial in like 99 or so, I came up with the semi fictional character, The Original Super Pro Action Figure.

The Super Pro was a top of the line disc golf player who was NEVER satisfied unless he Anton'd the course and completely destroyed everyone. Nikko is the exact definition of the Super Pro, he wants to play his VERY BEST every time out. He wants to be the best, and any time he doesn't perform to his standard, he is upset with him self....is this bad? NOT at all. His passion about the game is at a level that most people can't understand. So if he offends you choose to root against him, but there is no reason to ridicule him.

Gotta agree with Big Dave here.

After my 1st trip to the Memorial in like 99 or so, I came up with the semi fictional character, The Original Super Pro Action Figure.

The Super Pro was a top of the line disc golf player who was NEVER satisfied unless he Anton'd the course and completely destroyed everyone. Nikko is the exact definition of the Super Pro, he wants to play his VERY BEST every time out. He wants to be the best, and any time he doesn't perform to his standard, he is upset with him self....is this bad? NOT at all. His passion about the game is at a level that most people can't understand. So if he offends you choose to root against him, but there is no reason to ridicule him.

Could'nt the same thing be said for Cam Todd, Brad Hammock and Ron Russell???

1233455677890

Nikko is a great guy and I think hes great for the sport and I think hes going to be a great player for years to come. . Just enjoy the ride and dont get so stressed out over your dream job, enjoy it while you have it.....Lifes to fast to get all worked up over a sport, a passion...

Gotta agree with Big Dave here.

After my 1st trip to the Memorial in like 99 or so, I came up with the semi fictional character, The Original Super Pro Action Figure.

The Super Pro was a top of the line disc golf player who was NEVER satisfied unless he Anton'd the course and completely destroyed everyone. Nikko is the exact definition of the Super Pro, he wants to play his VERY BEST every time out. He wants to be the best, and any time he doesn't perform to his standard, he is upset with him self....is this bad? NOT at all. His passion about the game is at a level that most people can't understand. So if he offends you choose to root against him, but there is no reason to ridicule him.

for sure, I agree. And I am a very passionate guy myself so I am talking to myself here also, If we realize the context, its just a game, a wonderful game that we all love.
But I know, I just turned 30 and Im just now learning the lesson of controlling my anger and emotions and letting things go, its made me focus better and become a better player.
But I totally understand.

and at the end of the day the only person we can change, Is our self...
sorry I dont mean to redicule anyone, i just get preachy,....
sorry,
I like Nikko and look forward to playing with him.

Could'nt the same thing be said for Cam Todd, Brad Hammock and Ron Russell???

YES YES NO

In correct order.

Reasons for NO:
Lack of respect for the game and it's people. Once said "Disc Golf ruined his life"

Come on? Ruined your life? WhatheFlip

Being in GA and around Hammock alot, Brad seems to be easy to pick on for people so he has a little bit of a chip on his shoulder, but I have mucho respect for Brad and I have found out if you show him respect he will return the favor.

Cam had that passion, sometimes he turned into a different Cam on the course, and I think that being on the road for so long made us kind of crazy. We lost sight of what Disc Golf was meant to be and started looking at it as a business or cash grab but it was our livelihood and the steaks were high. But I actually like Cam alot, He's cool!

never mind.

YES YES NO

Cam had that passion, sometimes he turned into a different Cam on the course, and I think that being on the road for so long made us kind of crazy. We lost sight of what Disc Golf was meant to be and started looking at it as a business or cash grab but it was our livelihood and the steaks were high. But I actually like Cam alot, He's cool!


great perspective McCoy, I bet being on the road can be stressful, knowing you either win or go broke and go home.

wow, a bunch of Innova throwers all leading the pack ......

is day 3 todays live footage not available to watch?

Nikko is a great guy and I think hes great for the sport and I think hes going to be a great player for years to come. . Just enjoy the ride and dont get so stressed out over your dream job, enjoy it while you have it.....Lifes to fast to get all worked up over a sport, a passion...

if your dream job is one where you can have a bad day and go home broke then i think you need some perspective. if we got paid like ball golf you'd have an argument, but some of these guys are fighting for dinner out there. I work and then play tournaments as a fun weekend out of the house right now, so i don't normally feel what they're feeling out there, but i can certainly understand it. the ones who are calm and collected probably make solid money outside of disc golf. and they aren't as fun to watch :)

if your dream job is one where you can have a bad day and go home broke then i think you need some perspective. if we got paid like ball golf you'd have an argument, but some of these guys are fighting for dinner out there. I work and then play tournaments as a fun weekend out of the house right now, so i don't normally feel what they're feeling out there, but i can certainly understand it. the ones who are calm and collected probably make solid money outside of disc golf. and they aren't as fun to watch :)

I agree with this. I play disc golf as a hobby. I have a good job with full health insurance. I can pay my bills without cashing and can play anohter event. I have no idea how i'd react to a missed putt or tanked round knowing I cannot get to the next event. These guys are super competitve and have unbelievable skills. On the other side Tiger Woods is by far the best golfer ever and he blows up all the time on the course. He curses and smashes his club on the ground and his bag. He's made millions of dollars and has no financial pressure. There is a reason these guys are the best in the world.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=reilly_rick&id=4347419

1109 wow

if your dream job is one where you can have a bad day and go home broke then i think you need some perspective. if we got paid like ball golf you'd have an argument, but some of these guys are fighting for dinner out there. I work and then play tournaments as a fun weekend out of the house right now, so i don't normally feel what they're feeling out there, but i can certainly understand it. the ones who are calm and collected probably make solid money outside of disc golf. and they aren't as fun to watch :)
Now were getting somewhere.
What is fun to watch??
A bunch of guys pretending to be "country club members" playing an alternative sport
or actually alternative colorful people playing a new sport? ( yes disc golf will still be considered a NEW sport for many years to come).
Take a look at the history of tennis, not until Jimmy Conners and John Mcenore came on the scene with their "Nikko like" attitudes did the sport become popular.
Ball golf tries desperately to bring personality to its sport and without the finger pointing, fist pumping, loud cussing Tiger,, viewers are drastically declining both on TV and at the events.
I'm just saying????


Certain players need to "fire them selves up" in order to get the most out of themselves,,, I wish I had a guy in my office that demanded as much excellence if he didnt ship an order right or didn't get as much done each day as he should have.

Take away some of the top players passion and I guarantee you they either quit or never win again.

I started traveling and playing disc golf in 1983 and have the very unique opportunity to have a first hand perspective, (from all aspects of a top pro.) on what goes on in a top players life and mind.
Theres hardly a top pro from the last 20 years that I don't personally know. Most have stayed at my house or I have stayed at theirs and have spent many an hour talking about the past, present and future of Disc golf, in particular pro disc golf and the pro disc golf tour.


I'll be the first to admit, few players "LIKE" to play with an angry clown type, but the one thing that separates Nikko from other Premadonna pros is you never hear him complain about, the course design, certain holes, the Baskets, the PDGA, other players and even the Td's,,, while on the course and Rarely even off the course, (hes a pretty focused player who is improving his behavior as he is maturing). the same cannot be said about other top pros.

Fill the entire course with frat boys and other 21 year old kids and Nikko will look like a saint.
Televsion viewers feed off controversy, rivalry's and the personalities that come with them ( yeah we live in the world of very successful reality TV)

What will be exciting to watch on TV, Barry Schults punching the ground and breaking his hand, Nikko pulling his hair out when he misses a putt, Avery smacking a tree branch after a bad Drive, Feldberg,,,,, well you get the point. These guys have personalties and developing fierce rivalries between the top players will help the sport become viewable.
The players themselves should embrace this as what will help the sport make it big or at leastdraw attention. Suppressing the players personalities and filling the course with 30-40 somethings acting all prim and proper with colored shirts on and very few people will watch.

More than anything I think our sport is in denial about what it is or should be.
Disc golf of course is many different things to many different people, but if you want to see disc golf on TV each week, it has to be entertaining.

lets take a quick silent poll:

If you had a chance to watch either Nikko play Cam Todd ( in his hay day) or Paul Macbeth play Cale Leiviska,, who would you want to watch?

and the better question why?

1109 wow

Josh "Course Record" Anthon.

if your dream job is one where you can have a bad day and go home broke then i think you need some perspective. if we got paid like ball golf you'd have an argument, but some of these guys are fighting for dinner out there. I work and then play tournaments as a fun weekend out of the house right now, so i don't normally feel what they're feeling out there, but i can certainly understand it.

It's been exactly the same since the first touring Pros appeared in the late 1990s. (and the Winnicrew was constantly whining in their blogs about not having enough money to eat or for gas) The sport isn't there yet. They DON'T get paid like ball golfers do and won't for a long long time. Touring pros acting like spoiled bratty children when they have a bad round or get a bad break does nothing to change that; in fact it only sets the sport back even farther.

If you had a chance to watch either Nikko play Cam Todd ( in his hay day) or Paul Macbeth play Cale Leiviska,, who would you want to watch?

and the better question why?



better question: who would you rather have in your tournament foursome?

if everyone acted out on the course theres gonna be a huge need for sponsors since all the lower tier pros aren't gonna show up to donate to the top players anymore.


actually encouraging behavior like this is just rediculous and will kill the sport from the inside way before it attracts media and big sponsors.

Why isn't there live coverage for today? Round round coverage was cool, I wish I could be watching the final round right now. If they could only afford to show 3 days they should have skipped day 1. I know it's probably more expensive to have weekend coverage but still.

It's been exactly the same since the first touring Pros appeared in the late 1990s.

Sorry, the Winnicrew weren't the first. You're forgetting about The Three Amigos of Geoff and Johnny Lissaman plus Mike Williams.

If you had a chance to watch either Nikko play Cam Todd ( in his hay day) or Paul Macbeth play Cale Leiviska,, who would you want to watch?

and the better question why?

Paul and Cale because I don't get off on "negative energy" players.

One more: I don't think Nikko should be lumped in with the other famous grumpy negative energy guys yet. He's a youngster that is evolving, and can certainly be forgiven past hot-headedness if he is actually getting a better attitude on the course.

There's nothing wrong with being fired-up on the course as long as you aren't sucking the life out of your card with negativity. I'm not a touring pro so I don't know how he's been of late. Is there recent stuff from Nikko or is all the attention due to stuff from a couple of years ago?

Why isn't there live coverage for today? Round round coverage was cool, I wish I could be watching the final round right now. If they could only afford to show 3 days they should have skipped day 1. I know it's probably more expensive to have weekend coverage but still.

If you notice, the live coverage was only at Fountain Hills and the pros are playing the much tougher Vista course today. For whatever perhaps technical reason, they couldn't do the live coverage at Vista. So at least they are filming the final pro groups for a wrap-up show.

Why isn't there live coverage for today? Round round coverage was cool, I wish I could be watching the final round right now. If they could only afford to show 3 days they should have skipped day 1. I know it's probably more expensive to have weekend coverage but still.

Chuck is correct. They were only able to lay the cables and set up at one of the courses. I haven't witnessed it first hand, but apparently there is a ton of setup that goes into the todocast / eplanet thing.

I'm glad they had coverage the first three days. We can all feel free to question not showing round 4 (I know I'm sitting at my computer working and would love to have it on), but there may be a ratings reason to show the first three rounds rather than the final round - when most of us would expect to be on the course. At least we'll get to see the recap on Monday - although I'm wondering whether or not I should look to see who wins before then ...

-------

Any updates on the ladies?

Well, that is sad that they don't have live coverage for the last round, but at least the coverage thus far was pretty good. I guess they have invented wireless since the USDGC because we got to see every hole this time instead of just two. ;)

Sorry to hear about your troubles Bradley. Keep your head up, and I'll see you in Charlotte! Oh, btw kv, it must feel great to sit behind your computer screen and belittle people.

congrats to jim, dean and liz!

7 birds in a row, Dave takin' it to the house...

congratulations Liz!

:)

Rhett,
I can understand your point. I have respect for Nikko. It took him having respect for me long before otherwise. I have never met you personally but surely have read your post. DM is DM, please if it [email protected]@ses u off, just know that dude is not going to change. I will neither. Golf is golf and we all are different. Please lets get over 1990 ish... things 2010 is a long time different.

Thanks

Lots to say...
I completely disagree with the praises of the coverage from AZ. It has been good...great golf, great guys commenting...(Dave, T-dog, and JimO are true ambassodors) but flat WRONG inofrmation has been flagrantly stated.
I WILL continue to support this effort (the footage, I would pay double if I needed to) and Im very happy it will keep gong forward, but for paying customers I think the standard should be raised.
Chad Daigle

i just get preachy,....
.

amen

Since Barry Schultz was unable to compete, he was out today as a spotter for the Am's on hole 2. How cool was that? It was neat having Barry as a spotter today, I know I appreciated it.

Now were getting somewhere.
What is fun to watch??
A bunch of guys pretending to be "country club members" playing an alternative sport
or actually alternative colorful people playing a new sport? ( yes disc golf will still be considered a NEW sport for many years to come).
Take a look at the history of tennis, not until Jimmy Conners and John Mcenore came on the scene with their "Nikko like" attitudes did the sport become popular.
Ball golf tries desperately to bring personality to its sport and without the finger pointing, fist pumping, loud cussing Tiger,, viewers are drastically declining both on TV and at the events.
I'm just saying????


Certain players need to "fire them selves up" in order to get the most out of themselves,,, I wish I had a guy in my office that demanded as much excellence if he didnt ship an order right or didn't get as much done each day as he should have.

Take away some of the top players passion and I guarantee you they either quit or never win again.

I started traveling and playing disc golf in 1983 and have the very unique opportunity to have a first hand perspective, (from all aspects of a top pro.) on what goes on in a top players life and mind.
Theres hardly a top pro from the last 20 years that I don't personally know. Most have stayed at my house or I have stayed at theirs and have spent many an hour talking about the past, present and future of Disc golf, in particular pro disc golf and the pro disc golf tour.


I'll be the first to admit, few players "LIKE" to play with an angry clown type, but the one thing that separates Nikko from other Premadonna pros is you never hear him complain about, the course design, certain holes, the Baskets, the PDGA, other players and even the Td's,,, while on the course and Rarely even off the course, (hes a pretty focused player who is improving his behavior as he is maturing). the same cannot be said about other top pros.

Fill the entire course with frat boys and other 21 year old kids and Nikko will look like a saint.
Televsion viewers feed off controversy, rivalry's and the personalities that come with them ( yeah we live in the world of very successful reality TV)

What will be exciting to watch on TV, Barry Schults punching the ground and breaking his hand, Nikko pulling his hair out when he misses a putt, Avery smacking a tree branch after a bad Drive, Feldberg,,,,, well you get the point. These guys have personalties and developing fierce rivalries between the top players will help the sport become viewable.
The players themselves should embrace this as what will help the sport make it big or at leastdraw attention. Suppressing the players personalities and filling the course with 30-40 somethings acting all prim and proper with colored shirts on and very few people will watch.

More than anything I think our sport is in denial about what it is or should be.
Disc golf of course is many different things to many different people, but if you want to see disc golf on TV each week, it has to be entertaining.

lets take a quick silent poll:

If you had a chance to watch either Nikko play Cam Todd ( in his hay day) or Paul Macbeth play Cale Leiviska,, who would you want to watch?

and the better question why?

i agree, i'd suggest you try not to relate it directly to nikko so much though. disc golf is going to suck on tv either way.

Tough Tournament . . . . Barry averages 1072 for the tourny and takes last place, Anthon shoots a perfect 1109 and still doesn't win!

Since Barry Schultz was unable to compete, he was out today as a spotter for the Am's on hole 2. How cool was that? It was neat having Barry as a spotter today, I know I appreciated it.

yes, that is way cool.

I used to post on this message board all the time. I mean, I have close to 10K in posts....but I don't anymore unless it is pretty much about one of the two events I run during the year or about hockey..

The reason I started this post with that is I just read this thread and I want to point out a few things...and if I'm posting about t, I think that says a lot b/c I rarely even visit the message board anymore.

I would imagine that most if not everyone who will read this post wants disc golf to go to the next level. Otherwise, why else would we be here?

We just had what I call disc golf's 5th major in The Memorial. I use that term b/c ball golf calls the Tournament Players Championship at Sawgrass (which I've played before and holy God is that course unreal hard, but anyway...) their 5th major, or basically, the largest non major of the year. While we have more than 4 majors, the term 5th major probably describes to the general population how big this event is - I would say it would probably be our best Non-Major event along with the Vibram Open. However - I give this the nod b/c it's been around so much longer but that debate is for another time - we just finished what is def. one of the 3 largest non major tournaments of the year - that for sure we can all agree on.

So after all that, what is being talked about (and please keep an open mind when reading this. I'm not trying to call anyone out - I'm just trying to give a little outside perspective)

Is it stories about a kid like Jeremy Koling who coming off an amazing Rookie of the Year winning year, is on the road trying to make it? Is it stories about Josh Anthon shooting the 3rd best round ever in the ratings era and still losing by 3 shots? Is it stories about Climo, 40 years of age, still going out and dominating? Is it stories about guys like Jay Reading showing up in the masters' division for the first time ever? Is it stories about Liz Carr winning her first NT? Is it stories about Michael Lust averaging right at 1000 (world class) and finishing only 35th?

No.

It's stories about Nikko's behavior and then the very common and expect defense of him and then further comments comparing him to other notorious "bad boys".

It's stories about a guy not being able to compete due to a DUI (from beer he got at a player party apparently) and trying to figure out if someone called the cops on him or not and whether 5 beers is drunk or not.

It's stories about a 2 time world champ hurting his bad b/c of anger at either a bad putt or a bad roll.

It's stories about how a course might be considered too easy or too flukey for NT competition.

It's stories about how people were having issues with a feed that cost $20.

And people really want to question why NO ONE outside of disc golf takes the sport seriously?!? Everyday I get closer to "retiring" from this sport. Our sport needs help. No question. Who can help it the most? Those who seem to love it the most.

wow. that was interesting post MTl.
in one sense I think you are right, but on the other hand....

playing devils advocate for a second, and please forgive me.. I could be wrong and I dont mean anything by trying to counter what you posted since it raises a good point, however...
you have to remember this is the internet. I shouldnt have to remind someone who has almost 10000 posts here about that.
I have almost 40,000 posts on another message board I frequent and I guess the point I'm trying to make is these are the kind of things the " insiders" discuss and post about in regards to a tournament like this.

the average "joe shmoe" who will go play disc golf this weekend will never read any of that.

I went and played a mini this afternoon and I heard no talk about any of the things you mentioned .

I'd be willing to bet that of all the "regular" disc golfers out there that will go play disc golf tomorrow maybe only a small few out of those thousands and thousands of players will even mention the memorial at all when they play tomorrow, and out of the few that even knew it was going on there are fewer that are aware of the issues we discuss here.

I appreciate the viewpoint . it did make me think.. "wow, that guys right!! WTRH is disc golf doing when these are the things we are talking about?!?!"

but then I realized... well.. what I pointed out above.

now.. having said that..
if we are talking about sponsorship and whatnot, well. thats a different bag.



now.. grats to Dave and all the other winners at the Memorial. and thanks to todocast and everyone else that made it available to watch for the three days. you cant make everyone happy 100% of the time. but it's still another major step, and I have no doubt y'all will continue to evolve and make this kind of coverage better and better.
I'll watch disc golf on my computer or TV any day of the week , regardless of if it's ams or pros over some of the other crap on TV.

Sorry to hear about your troubles Bradley. Keep your head up, and I'll see you in Charlotte! Oh, btw kv, it must feel great to sit behind your computer screen and belittle people.

wow, bro sorry , i didnt know i belittled peole. I was asking more than anything. and no it doesnt feel good to belittle people. again sorry that wasnt my intent. There is no emotion conveyed through forums posting so I guess we all have a hard time understanding peoples points some times.

Lots to say...
I completely disagree with the praises of the coverage from AZ. It has been good...great golf, great guys commenting...(Dave, T-dog, and JimO are true ambassodors) but flat WRONG inofrmation has been flagrantly stated.
I WILL continue to support this effort (the footage, I would pay double if I needed to) and Im very happy it will keep gong forward, but for paying customers I think the standard should be raised.
Chad Daigle

agreed, I totally will pay to see golf went I cant be there, but I sure hope it improves. They would cahnge cameras right before guys putt, and have mis inforamtion, very amature...but I do understand that we are spoiled to watching ESPN and these guys need alot of grace and time to get any where like we are used to watching. I have enjoyed it. But I wish we could have wathced all the pro rounds, not watching the last day sucked...did they tell us paying customers this, cause I dont remember hearing that 3 days out of 4...

great point, we have a great sport and I think we, especially the guys that spend time posting are really passionate and care about the sport. But an Internet Forum is a place with no walls where you can discuss anything. And I f our points suck, then no one responds. I don’t always mean to argue, but Im a talker and I love starting conversations, even if people get mad at me....at the end of the day I am a great ambassador for the Sport (maybe not on hear) but I volunteer, I build courses, I donate tons of disc to up and coming players, i always help set up for tourneys, I love the sport, So online Im just having conversations, And Im not afraid to ask questions.
But great point and I will try and take it to heart and make sure that I am being an ambassador for my great sport even online....good point

fyi,,,,,,the funny thing is for years ive just been posting polite, quiet stuff, and agreeing with people, no body knew my name.
All the sudden I start arguing and spewing stuff to start conversations, now people know my name.....maybe Im just trying to Market my name.....huh! jk sorry
of course your come back will be its only great marketing to get my *** kicked right!!! lol

Has anyone heard how many people paid for the broadcast?

I lost my cell phone near at at the three palms. It is a Verizon phone that flips open. If it isn't dead yet, there is picture of a boy and two hound dogs. It would be soooooo awesome if someone has it. My email address is- [email protected]


Now- My take on Memorial 2010. LOVED IT! GREAT WORK TEAM ARIZONA!!! I APPRECIATE EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO AND I LOVE THE CIRCUS BASKETS. I hope to be back next year.

So was the final round videoed? Anyone know if it be available sometime, somewhere? You'd think the discgolfplanet website or the Memorial website would hint at this since they broadcast the first 3 days live. But I can find nothing.

You mean like the big display ad video in the middle of the PDGA Home page? ;)

It will be available free to those who already paid for live coverage or I think you can still pay $20 to see it.

What is meant by "Circus Baskets"?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3390/3634441798_027ec2a3ed.jpg

Something like this? :D

Is this Barry's injury? Or someone elses?

the steaks were high


where do you buy meat?

Is this Barry's injury? Or someone elses?

someone else's. i talked to barry 2 days ago- his hand is not broken and there is still potential he'll be playing in 2 weeks.

Yeah I thought the ring was a giveaway
Looks nasty just the same, glad Barry didn't do THAT to himself

Since Barry Schultz was unable to compete, he was out today as a spotter for the Am's on hole 2. How cool was that? It was neat having Barry as a spotter today, I know I appreciated it.

We are on hole 2 and one of the guys on the card throws a disc that is rolling out of bounds ... this spotter guy runs up, marks the disc where it went out, and caught the disc as it hit the lip of the ledge and was rolling into the lake. Then the next guy launches a hugh hyzer that is cleary going into the lake and the spotter runs after it and leaps into the air in an attempt to knock it down before it goes into the lake never to be seen again. I was thinking dam that spotter is really doing a great job. I went up and said nice work and thanks ... I walked on and then said ... Hey that spotter's barry Schultz! Pretty cool!

What is meant by "Circus Baskets"?

Baskets raised on a pole to be approx 4 feet higher than normal. I think there was one of those at Vista del Camino and 2 of them at fountain hills.

Well, here is my take. I bought a cable to hook my laptop to my 50 inch plazma and watched all the coverage with my wife and kids. I was one of the ones who won a couple of Widye discs. How that works, I have no idea as I have not been contacted. Loved the coverage. After a 15 year layoff, I am very happy with the progression of the sport. It has been HUGE.
I really don't understand why they did not do live coverage the final day, I would have given up the first three for the final day in a heart beat.

As far as some of the antics of the players goes, well, they are people. This is no glamor sport (yet) and I enjoy a bit of spice and drama anyways! Just shows me they are more like me then I think and not some untouchables.

Like I said, disc golf has come a long ways, and I think that I was able to watch this is incredible!

We are on hole 2 and one of the guys on the card throws a disc that is rolling out of bounds ... this spotter guy runs up, marks the disc where it went out, and caught the disc as it hit the lip of the ledge and was rolling into the lake. Then the next guy launches a hugh hyzer that is cleary going into the lake and the spotter runs after it and leaps into the air in an attempt to knock it down before it goes into the lake never to be seen again. I was thinking dam that spotter is really doing a great job. I went up and said nice work and thanks ... I walked on and then said ... Hey that spotter's barry Schultz! Pretty cool! <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
Hopefully, you are joking because both of those actions go against 803.07A

so are all NT events also qualifiers for USDGC ???

So what happened to Bradley Williams? He got arrested so he can�t play? Wow.
Ok not to be an arguer, but I�m just saying Life is a circle, I don�t know what happened as I wasn�t there, but Life gives back what you give it. The guy (even thought a good player) has a really bad attitude and cares for no one...his nick name is the "Cactus" because of the prick he chooses to be. I�m sure if he was a "regular" friendly guy who was liked, like most of us players, all friends... then he would have, could have received help from someone. But if you go around pissing everyone off and making a bad name for yourself, then you screw up, do you really expect someone to help him?
I know we should, but you have to show your self friendly to actually have FRIENDS. I�m not saying he deservers this, I don�t which that on anyone, But Life is a circle and things in life will catch up with you. It our decision whether the things in Life that catch up to us are Positive / or / Negative ? We make that Choice.....


WHen cAn We TAlk fAce TO fAce AbOUT THIs??? I HAVe nOTHIng else TO sAY, UnTIl THAT MOMenT...

is it just me?

the layout played y'day was a Par 55 with 17 Par 3's and 1 Par 4, correct? (good lord, i hope i got this right; otherwise i'll put on the buffoon hat).

i've got a little bit of a problem with a par 55 layout for an NT event. shouldn't an NT event showcase our sport? Is a Par 55 layout with only 1 non-Par-3 what we want our sport to be about at the highest level? isn't this playing small? this would be like the Masters at Augusta having actual tourney play be like the Par 3 shootout they have the day before the event happens. what about having the approach shot be part of an NT-caliber layout?

I'm the TD of the Skylands Classic at Warwick, the last NT event of 2010. I'm working on a tournament layout the polar opposite of a Par 55 layout. We may not use it for the NT event, but we will create an 18-hole Par 78 layout with 9 Par 5's, 6 Par 4's, and 3 Par 3's that we will use for some events.

Is it just me? What do others think about a Par 55 layout for our showcase events?

Longer par courses play easier across the field....lower par courses play harder......
makes leader really have to put an amazing round/rounds together.....

In a low par course, I believe the S.S.A. , creates each throw to be worth more( in rating points), therefore each throw has greater risk/worth....right????

The only way to keep guys from being -40 for this tournament is to make putting more difficult.

The thing I absolutely hate about this tournament is the Wed -Saturday schedule. Until this is really a major, it's not worth it.

HOW AbOUT lOWerIng THe pArs....especIAllY WITH All THe neW TecHnOlOgY.......MOre pAr 2's...

As they should be, but do they have any say?
Should they?

I have noticed it was done alphabetically, by rating order, or by pdga #......( definitely left up to td 's choice)......there are more.........including the "favorites" option..(Obviously it depends on the importance placed in the card making process)...or is there a guideline?/rule?

Where is Billy Crump and his broadcast crew? He was at USDGC and I thought he was part of the broadcast thing.

I HATe THIs WHOle THreAd WenT THe WrOng dIrecTIOn.... nO IMpOrTAnT Or InTeresTIng MeMOrIAl eVenTs/fAcTs Were brOUgHT AbOUT ...jUsT lOTs Of bAd kArMA gObble....bOOO!

sO HOW dId THe cOUrses plAY?.....gOOd WeATHer? WInd speeds? dIrecTIOns? .....AnY fAcTs? pleAse :)

Chuck,

Explain how the rating system works with tee times? This is the 2nd tourney I've played in where tee times have dramatically altered ratings. For example a player teed off at 11:00 AM on Thursday at Fountain Hills they played that course under substantially different conditions than say I did when I teed off at 1:45 and then had to wait 40 minutes on the second hole resulting in basically a 2:30 tee time, at 2:00 the winds went from non existant to 20 - 30 MPH.

Just to be clear I am not complaining about the conditions or my results, can't change mother nature. I also don't care about my rating. More curious than anything else.

Its may understanding that ratings system is based on the premise that all players playing the course under the same conditions. Shouldn't the ratings be adjusted or not calculated when tee times are used?

Hopefully, you are joking because both of those actions go against 803.07A

That's what I was thinking too.

I don't believe that dude named Bradly Williams really is who he says he is, because I haven't seen Sonny Ashby in a while and I swear they are the same exact person.[/QUOTE]

That's hilarious!

Explain how the rating system works with tee times? This is the 2nd tourney I've played in where tee times have dramatically altered ratings. For example a player teed off at 11:00 AM on Thursday at Fountain Hills they played that course under substantially different conditions than say I did when I teed off at 1:45 and then had to wait 40 minutes on the second hole resulting in basically a 2:30 tee time, at 2:00 the winds went from non existant to 20 - 30 MPH.

We spot check on tee time events by calculating the ratings by division to see if there are any discrepancies and will keep them separate if the difference is bigger than 1.5 SSA (15 ratings points). Otherwise, the conditions aren't deemed different enough and the whole field will get the same ratings for the same score that round.

We spot check on tee time events by calculating the ratings by division to see if there are any discrepancies and will keep them separate if the difference is bigger than 1.5 SSA (15 ratings points). Otherwise, the conditions aren't deemed different enough and the whole field will get the same ratings for the same score that round.

So was that the case at FH or not. If not then your method may be logic and based on statitically theory but didn't in this situation as I am 100% positive the conditions where dramatically different between the earlier times and when I teed. They where not adjusted in the last tourney I played in either and I played 16 holes in perfect conditions while others played all 18 in a downpour.

So was that the case at FH or not. If not then your method may be logic and based on statitically theory but didn't in this situation as I am 100% positive the conditions where dramatically different between the earlier times and when I teed. They where not adjusted in the last tourney I played in either and I played 16 holes in perfect conditions while others played all 18 in a downpour. <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
The ratings haven't been done for the Memorial yet. The unofficial ratings you see now are automated and don't account for tee time differences. Interestingly, rain alone does not change the difficulty of a course, only wind. Time and again, players shooting in a drizzle/rain (without wind) do not shoot any worse than when it's sunny. Perhaps they are more careful when it's raining.

The ratings haven't been done for the Memorial yet. The unofficial ratings you see now are automated and don't account for tee time differences. Interestingly, rain alone does not change the difficulty of a course, only wind. Time and again, players shooting in a drizzle/rain (without wind) do not shoot any worse than when it's sunny. Perhaps they are more careful when it's raining.

Drizzle ... maybe, Tourential downpour ... yes that did and does effect your ability score.

Drizzle ... maybe, Tourential downpour ... yes that did and does effect your ability score.
I'm saying the facts show it doesn't. Usually, there is a fair amount of wind when it's raining so we had to look at selected examples where the wind was under 10mph to see what effect the rain has on ratings. That's not to say that some players may not do as well. But apparently enough others do that they offset each other. Same way that some players are better in the woods than others.

I HATe THIs WHOle THreAd WenT THe WrOng dIrecTIOn.... nO IMpOrTAnT Or InTeresTIng MeMOrIAl eVenTs/fAcTs Were brOUgHT AbOUT ...jUsT lOTs Of bAd kArMA gObble....bOOO!

sO HOW dId THe cOUrses plAY?.....gOOd WeATHer? WInd speeds? dIrecTIOns? .....AnY fAcTs? pleAse :)


The event was awesome and very well run. The only issue I saw was the backup at hole 2 at Fountain Hills. I waited for over 30 minutes between finishing hole 1 and starting hole 2. Perhaps start on hole 2 or add more time between tee times.

There was wind on day 1 which turned Fountain Hills into a beast. Image trying throw to a 30' green surrounded on 3.75 sides by water and sloping towards the water with 30 MPH winds. :eek:

The event had a sweet players pack ... I got a stool, an awesome fanny pack disc bag thing that will be great for night golf and the mountains plus lots of plastic.

The courses are great and fun to play.

The weather was awesome!

Interesting story ...

My group is sitting on hole 7 at Vista and we are talking about how great the park is. There are people biking, walking, fishing, playing disc golf, roller blading, etc. Its an awesome park. We are also talking about all the beautifull women in Scottsdale and I was telling the group how on Weekends the best part about playing the course is the people watching. Then this lady wearing next to nothing comes roller blading by. She was all oiled up and very attactive. We all did a double take. Hole 7 also has a path that goes right across the fairway about 60 feet in front of the tee box. The lady proceeds to foller blad right that path and just lays down right in front of us. She wasn't in the way of are shooting path but you couldn't help but notice here. Here where like, "how in the H E double hockey sticks are we supposed to drive with this lady all oild up practically undressing in front of us. I LOVE SCOTTSDALE!

how funny, sounds like a great tourny. ihope to play next year and keep playing for years. i hear nothing but good things.
I hope they get the back up fixed on certain holes.

cgk, it amazes me that you are so profound in citing 803.07A after Mr. Schultz performed the same actions you and I have have gone back and forth discussing in several posts. I think you have simply thrown "Spirit of the Game" out the window in your assessment, while others, a top PRO player in the world, the Memorial announcers, and some 1 year seasoned AM player gets it. I can only conclude that if you were a cop you would be giving everyone tickets for going 51mph in a 50mph zone.

Patrick ... I played with a couple of your SD boys in the tourney. They're a cool bunch. Played with Carl twice and Ropper once. :D

cgk, it amazes me that you are so profound in citing 803.07A after Mr. Schultz performed the same actions you and I have have gone back and forth discussing in several posts. I think you have simply thrown "Spirit of the Game" out the window in your assessment, while others, a top PRO player in the world, the Memorial announcers, and some 1 year seasoned AM player gets it. I can only conclude that if you were a cop you would be giving everyone tickets for going 51mph in a 50mph zone.
Why have 803.07 on interference as a rule if it's not followed? I talked with Greenwell today about it and he didn't realize it was a rule infraction until after Terry told him about the email I sent them. But they didn't cover it on the air later. I also got an email from our former Executive Director who had a similar incident at an event. A spotter stopped his disc from rolling into OB water back in the 1998 Can Am Finals. He successfully argued that his disc was interfered with inbounds and should be marked IB where it was touched. The other two top pros in the group grudgingly agreed based on the rule. In fact, if he wanted, it was intentional intereference and he could have taken a rethrow. This is no different from Barry "saving" discs if that's what happened.

In the case of the Memorial, the am who touched his disc in the OB area just before going in the water should have had a 2-throw penalty on top of the OB based on 803.07C. In Barry's case, both of those mentioned sounded like intentional interference 803.07A. So those players could have taken their lies inbounds where he touched their discs or taken a rethrow. That's how the rule is written and how a marshal should be calling them just like Hoeniger did in 1998. This was an NT after all with the ED right there to confirm the ruling if there was any question.

A player is allowed to stop their disc when it's about to roll OB. But they have to decide if saving their disc is worth a 2-throw penalty.

I can only conclude that if you were a cop you would be giving everyone tickets for going 51mph in a 50mph zone.


Now thats some funny stuff

Why have 803.07 on interference as a rule if it's not followed? I talked with Greenwell today about it and he didn't realize it was a rule infraction until after Terry told him about the email I sent them. But they didn't cover it on the air later. I also got an email from our former Executive Director who had a similar incident at an event. A spotter stopped his disc from rolling into OB water back in the 1998 Can Am Finals. He successfully argued that his disc was interfered with inbounds and should be marked IB where it was touched. The other two top pros in the group grudgingly agreed based on the rule. In fact, if he wanted, it was intentional intereference and he could have taken a rethrow. This is no different from Barry "saving" discs if that's what happened.

In the case of the Memorial, the am who touched his disc in the OB area just before going in the water should have had a 2-thow penalty on top of the OB based on 803.07C. In Barry's case, both of those mentioned sounded like intentional interference. So those players could have taken their lies inbounds where he touched them or taken a rethrow. That's how the rule is written and how a marshal should be calling them. This was an NT after all with the ED right there.

Now, a player is allowed to stop their disc when it's about to roll OB. But they have to decide if saving their disc is worth a 2-throw penalty.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Chuck 100%.:eek:

Why have 803.07 on interference as a rule?

oh me too

You have to understand that many times what I might be posting isn't necessarily how I feel about something but just how it looks like something should be interpreted in the way it's written. I'd hate to see my disc rolling into OB water to likely disappear. If there were a way to write the rule to allow a spotter or player to save their disc in these situations by maybe calling out, "I declare OB!" that would be cool. But I'm not sure how you would do it.

FYI, in ball golf the penalty is 2 shots for intentionally touching a moving ball with no distinction whether the ball is moving inbounds, in a hazard or OB. Unintentional deflection by the striker, caddie, partner or the player's equipment is a one shot penalty.

Barry ... sorry if I got you in trouble here.

BTW, I know we've had this discussion maybe a few years ago on this discussion board regarding a similar incident at Vista Del Camino at the Memorial. A player on a top card threw a roller that the spotter saved from going OB. I can't remember how it was played but we had a heated discussion regarding this before at the same event.

Is it just me? What do others think about a Par 55 layout for our showcase events?



fwiw they can call it a 55 if they want, but it was really a par 57. holes 8 and 9 are definitely par 4s.

I'd bet that #8 averaged around a 3.7 for the MPO and MPM divisions, and #9 averaged over 4

cgk, I never said your interpretation of the rule is incorrect. However we do not live in a black and white world as you are so adamant to apply this scenario as the rule is currently written. The same can be said about current laws, rules in other sports, and life in general. We can have endless discussions about this and we can continue to cite how many examples in life of how things are written and how things should be. Even certain disc golf rules in place have a degree subject to interpretation and judgment.

The easiest point that anyone can site is in our current law system that it would be absurd for a police officer to write each and every driver who drives one mile over the posted speed limit. Did the driver break the law going 51mph in a 50mph zone? Yes, absolutely. Do you think a police officer will issue a ticket for this infraction? 99.9% no.

We do strive for absolutes and write rules as such, but unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, and life nor a game should be played as such. I guess in the end, in your eyes, there is no such thing as the spirit of the game and that's unfortunate in your analysis.

Patrick ... I played with a couple of your SD boys in the tourney. They're a cool bunch. Played with Carl twice and Ropper once. :D It was well worth it to come out and get to watch these buddies play. Roper ended up finishing 8th overall in AMS and Carl ended up throwing one of the best 3rd rounds amongst the San Diego players after only being back in the scene for a couple months upon a year long recovery from a broken arm. Great memories to be had and one of the best events of the year.

We do strive for absolutes and write rules as such, but unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, and life nor a game should be played as such. I guess in the end, in your eyes, there is no such thing as the spirit of the game and that's unfortunate in your analysis.
How would you have ruled on these issues if you were a marshal? You cannot use the rule of fairness 803.01F because the situations are directly covered in the rules. Barry couldn't possibly knock down or catch every errant shot going OB as a spotter. Is that fair that some players get their disc saved and others don't? What rule would you use to indicate the players still get the OB penalty when Barry saves the disc from going OB even though the rule says a disc is played from the point the disc is touched which would be inbounds? You're on a slope as slippery as the banks we're talking about.

agreed, but in ball golf losing a ball is no big deal, but a well beat in plastic disc is hard to lose, I would think if the rule could be written where a trained spotter could stop disc from escaping to never never land and then the spotter could just stop the OB spot for where we need to throw from no extra penalty? is this a possibility in the future. I understand the rule and have no issue with it. But seeing how losing a disc can be a big deal (bigger than a ball) then maybe we could have some Lax on the law.....just wondereing.

Hopefully, you are joking because both of those actions go against 803.07A

Why is this a violation if the disc has already gone out-of-bounds and clearly has no way of coming back into play?
(I'm assuming the disc had already passed an OB line, perhaps I read the statement wrong)

Bottom line is that you can personally save your disc for a 2-throw penalty. For many people, that may be worth it. Otherwise, I don't see how allowing spotters to save discs can possibly be a fair option even if the same individual is stationed at the same spot for every minute of play which would be a rare situation at an event except maybe the USDGC.

I already talked with Gentry today about it and he wants the details for the Rules Committee to review since they are looking at rules revisions this year. I'll be interested to see if they can find a more "Spirit of the game" option that doesn't open up its own can of worms.

Why is this a violation if the disc has already gone out-of-bounds and clearly has no way of coming back into play?
The Interference rule in disc golf and ball golf does not care where the disc or ball is located, just that it is a live shot still moving. I doubt you would want a spectator to catch your disc as it's rolling thru OB on its way potentially back inbounds would you?

"Disc golf is a game that expects high standards of etiquette and courtesy". I intepret that statement in the rule book to supersede your ruling. That in it self is why players such as Barry Schultz is helping AM players from losing discs in the water and that's probably why the PDGA decided to make that statement in the introduction of the rule book (to formulate a basis and standard of play; i.e. Spirit of the game).

You're a spotter at the Memorial and stop Feldberg's roller from going in the water. Mark the shot and you're ready to give the disc back to him when he gets there. He's smiling not just because you saved his disc but saved him a throw because he knows the rules. Anthon, Nikko and Climo are ticked. They think Dave should get the OB penalty but Dave shows in the rulebook that you touched his disc inbounds so no OB. They agree that's what the rulebook says and are upset that you touched Dave's disc. How do you explain that Dave gets the OB penalty? In fact, just for more drama, Dave decides to retee which he is allowed to do because he knows he can park the drive this time.

These are the kind of calls marshals have to make all of the time. That's why the words are in writing and not simply transmitted as oral history from our forefathers of disc golf. By the way, I'm not against swinging calls toward the spirit of the game in gray areas when the wording is unclear and judgments are called for. But that's not the case for this rule and these situations.

Chuck,

You went exactly where I was going to go - how courteous was it to the rest of the competition that you saved a player a stroke that he should have received, and possibly saved the player a disc that he should have lost, and not been able to use for the rest of the round?

If the RC wants to change the rule, fine, but for now, that's the way it is.

One can apply a logical extension that a player throwing a disc into the water is littering and therefore anyone who throws a disc into the water is subject to a courtesy violation. There, I can play the what-if game too.

...

I can't seem to find the "Monday Special"....am I just missing it or did it not get produced today?

Check your email. Duesler sent an email that they needed a little more time to edit the program.

One can apply a logical extension that a player throwing a disc into the water is littering and therefore anyone who throws a disc into the water is subject to a courtesy violation.
Been there, done that. Discs not defined by PDGA as litter.

I got no email, but thanks for telling me. Were there any winners here on the giveaways they did on air? I was one of them but I have not got any emails on that either.

good points, but why can the rule not be written that if someone stops or saves a disc then its just played as an OB shot from where he touched it. or the OB is played from where the disc would normally be played from where the disc went oB but a spotter saved the disc, just play the Lie as a normal OB.
I understand the circumstance of a disc maybe coming back in bounds, but can you not just make this rule for a shot like over water where there is no possible chance to come back In Bounds>?
Im just wondering. But I do understand the rule, and I understand that we just lose disc sometimes, but could we allow an exception for saving disc in water situations?

but your right, I dont want to give players advantages for a spotter saving there disc. Is it not possible to still play like normal OB but a spotter just saved a lost disc cenerio???

I got no email, but thanks for telling me. Were there any winners here on the giveaways they did on air? I was one of them but I have not got any emails on that either.

That was also in the email that they will contact winners for mailing info.

Well that kind of bites. Since I got no email, something went wrong....

Contact them here: [email protected] ([email protected])

good points, but why can the rule not be written that if someone stops or saves a disc then its just played as an OB shot from where he touched it. or the OB is played from where the disc would normally be played from where the disc went oB but a spotter saved the disc, just play the Lie as a normal OB.
Having anyone be responsible for saving discs is inherently going to be unfair. What if there's no spotter but a player has a caddie or buddy watching. The player can send them down to watch and save their shots but not anyone else's in the group or other groups. There's no real human equivalent of say a net in the water that goes along the shoreline say 70 feet and maybe 10 feet wide out into the water. Any OB shot in that area would be caught by the net. That would be reasonably fair. But I don't think you could get that level of "fairness" for disc retrieval even with the best human spotter.

A lot of good points here, but the bottom line has to be that the rules have to be followed. It could be a total differance maker in the end for some peoples score, especilly if your giving them back their favorite most reliable disc.

If there were any exceptions the ONLY fair thing to do is mark them OB, and don't allow them to use that disc for the rest of the tourney.

thanks for the lesson, I totally understand and I agree with the rules. We all know the consequences and if we want our disc then throw safe, if we want to win then go for it, Risk reward, I saw people doing both in Arizona....
thanks guys

agreed, but in ball golf losing a ball is no big deal, but a well beat in plastic disc is hard to lose

Have you seen the prices for a sleeve of ProV1's? They run around $20 for 3 a the proshop.

Who were the USDGC qualifiers from the Memorial?

Now thats some funny stuff

No, that's actually pejorative and rude. The rule says what it says. If one thinks it should be changed, then lobby to have it done. Chuck is only the messenger here and does not deserve to be shot.

Learn some manners people!!!!!

One can apply a logical extension that a player throwing a disc into the water is littering and therefore anyone who throws a disc into the water is subject to a courtesy violation. There, I can play the what-if game too.

You could also apply an extension of similar logic that allowing stupid idiots on the course is offensive and thus deserving of a courtesy violation.

Hopefully, you are joking because both of those actions go against 803.07A

Bu, bu, but....He's BARRY SCHULTZ man!!! He makes the rules! HA! He can even play from a fenced in, danger, no trespassing area, with no penalty. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fMJIef0YM) So, this is nothing!

Well, since Harold, his sponsor, is on the Rules Committee and the issue has been referred to them, it would be interesting to hear any dialog between them on this topic. :)

Thank you everyone involved with The Memorial.
I will see you next year.
WoW!
The spotters were all awesome. Almost every hole
had one. Amazing.

The weather, the atmosphere, the courses you just
can't beat it. If you enjoy tournament disc golf then
The Memorial is right for you.

I agree he should not have touched them. It is called being a spotter not disc saver guy. Keep it out the drink and you got nothing to worry about. If a disc means that much to you hang it on the wall or put it under your pillow at night, otherwise you'll see it again on the other side of the universe.

I agree he should not have touched them. It is called being a spotter not disc saver guy. Keep it out the drink and you got nothing to worry about. If a disc means that much to you hang it on the wall or put it under your pillow at night, otherwise you'll see it again on the other side of the universe.

Col. Bruce fan I take it from your board name.

My idol.

Sun Ra Arkestra actually. Some of the best jazz ever made. The good Col. knows how to select a song to cover.

USDGC Qualifiers from The Memorial

--Philo Brathwaite
--Paul McBeth
--Karl Johan Nybo
--Cory Sharp
--Dean Tannock


Yes, I played with a broken big toe thanks for the inquiries. My first broken bone after all of those years of football, mtn. biking and defending the common man. I get take down by a Lazy Boy Recliner.:confused:

It provided for a fun filled 18 out of bounds strokes throughout the weekend:p

I personally want to hear about more stories that went on at the Memorial! Enough with the rules, we can fight about them on a different topic!
I loved the story about the fine looking lady presented by Jerry Chaterson. You got anymore stories Jerry, your a good story teller! :)
What about you Yeti? 18 Out of bounds. Im sure you were swearing to the Lord all weekend. I know i would have been.

Alright, alright a good story is surely needed. I will be starting back up the Yeti Road Report this year that you can sign-up for at http://www.yetidisc.com (http://www.yetidisc.com/)

Vista Del Camino, Between Holes 4 and 5

There is a loud and obnoxious group of water fowl, two geese and two ducks. They are chasing each other honking and quacking in a wild sexcapade episode of wife swap. Apparently, one of the couples wasn't in for participation as they all continued to chase each other across the fairway and green of a tightly roped landing zone. Some players got a clean look while others had to deal with the zoobilee zoo criss crossing the green. Anyway, ours, like most groups tries to shoe them away for the next group. At one point, one of Arizona's legends, Old Man Terry shows up with a group and attempts to walk around them. He must of got too close to one of the Geese as it nipped at his pants legs as he tries to escape and at one point latches on and refuses to let go. Well Old Man Terry wasn't getting bested and he reaches down and grabs the honker by the neck, lifts it up and starts shaking it wildly before throwing it back down on the ground. The goose is completely stunned as you would imagine and has this bewildered look of a dog that just got its nosed rubbed in it :eek:

I hope you can visualize this because it is freakin' funny, there you go!

I personally want to hear about more stories that went on at the Memorial! Enough with the rules, we can fight about them on a different topic!
I loved the story about the fine looking lady presented by Jerry Chaterson. You got anymore stories Jerry, your a good story teller! :)
What about you Yeti? 18 Out of bounds. Im sure you were swearing to the Lord all weekend. I know i would have been.

So I am playing with this dude from Boise. We are on that short 222' uphill shot at FH. I think its 6 or 7. There is another basket about 40' from the teeing area for this hole. Another group is at the other basket and they are just chatting away, oblivious to the fact that the dude from Boise was getting ready to tee off. One guy was particularly loud and was jabbering away when the dude from boise tees off. The dude from Boise had headphones in so he didn't even her the talking. (but nobody knew that at the time). As he is teeing off the the loud talker is jabbering way and then you hear, "Oh Bleeep, I'm sorry I didn't know you where teeing ... IT's AN ACE!" The guy from Boise had the head phones in and wasn't even cheering out loud. He was yelling without talking, jumping around and the like. Quietest Ace ever! By the way dude from Boise, I missed you at Flicka's so I still owe you $5.

I know not as good as Yeti's Goose Sexcapades (that would be a great band name) but its the best I have at this point.

I have to say Yeti, I dont know who ur talking about or any other details about ur story, other than some old guy threw the old choke-hold on a goose. I literally laughed out loud at my desk.

Thanks for that. We need more of that on this forum!

So I am playing with this dude from Boise. We are on that short 222' uphill shot at FH. I think its 6 or 7. There is another basket about 40' from the teeing area for this hole. Another group is at the other basket and they are just chatting away, oblivious to the fact that the dude from Boise was getting ready to tee off. One guy was particularly loud and was jabbering away when the dude from boise tees off. The dude from Boise had headphones in so he didn't even her the talking. (but nobody knew that at the time). As he is teeing off the the loud talker is jabbering way and then you hear, "Oh Bleeep, I'm sorry I didn't know you where teeing ... IT's AN ACE!" The guy from Boise had the head phones in and wasn't even cheering out loud. He was yelling without talking, jumping around and the like. Quietest Ace ever! By the way dude from Boise, I missed you at Flicka's so I still owe you $5.

I know not as good as Yeti's Goose Sexcapades (that would be a great band name) but its the best I have at this point.

Was this on the 3rd day around 12-1230? I was one of the groups waiting on tee 8, a mere 60 feet away from an ace on #6. Crazy one right there.. gave the guy a few bucks..
I think one of the weird moments was when that dog went apenuts with that huge geese in the water between VDC tee 16 and basket 18. That dog would not answer to any human, even it's owner... and then the geese decided to give the dog a good humping to humilate the dog in front of at least 100 spectators if not more. Boy the owner was in dismay and just decided to go in fully clothed to drag the dog out of the water and what seemed to me, apologize to the bird, which the bird amazingly accepted. The bird humping was just hilarious....
OHHHHHHH i just remembered this one, this was even better. Bunch of us are watching players tee off hole 18 at VDC from the out of bounds area on the right of the fairway, when this "pretty" girl and her "ugly" pug decide it's a good spot to take a pee right there at that doggie bag station just inbounds on hole 18 fairway when we are all telling her fore fore fore, the disc comes between the dog and the girl and hits the leash, and of course stays inbounds. But the funny part was that the Pug actually had the "sh$t scared out of him" and started pooping right there, with his leg still up! Oh man, we were trying not to laugh, and I know she was terrified, one moment she's trying to get a bunch of cute guys attention, the next she just wants to disappear back the direction she came. But as she tried to escape, a few of us asked her to please clean up her mess, since it is her dog, and the doggie bags were right there. She took a bag, just picked up what she could in one scoop and took off the way she came. Heh, the stuff that happens at tournaments is why I play tournaments...

Was this on the 3rd day around 12-1230? I was one of the groups waiting on tee 8, a mere 60 feet away from an ace on #6. Crazy one right there.. gave the guy a few bucks..
I think one of the weird moments was when that dog went apenuts with that huge geese in the water between VDC tee 16 and basket 18. That dog would not answer to any human, even it's owner... and then the geese decided to give the dog a good humping to humilate the dog in front of at least 100 spectators if not more. Boy the owner was in dismay and just decided to go in fully clothed to drag the dog out of the water and what seemed to me, apologize to the bird, which the bird amazingly accepted. The bird humping was just hilarious....
OHHHHHHH i just remembered this one, this was even better. Bunch of us are watching players tee off hole 18 at VDC from the out of bounds area on the right of the fairway, when this "pretty" girl and her "ugly" pug decide it's a good spot to take a pee right there at that doggie bag station just inbounds on hole 18 fairway when we are all telling her fore fore fore, the disc comes between the dog and the girl and hits the leash, and of course stays inbounds. But the funny part was that the Pug actually had the "sh$t scared out of him" and started pooping right there, with his leg still up! Oh man, we were trying not to laugh, and I know she was terrified, one moment she's trying to get a bunch of cute guys attention, the next she just wants to disappear back the direction she came. But as she tried to escape, a few of us asked her to please clean up her mess, since it is her dog, and the doggie bags were right there. She took a bag, just picked up what she could in one scoop and took off the way she came. Heh, the stuff that happens at tournaments is why I play tournaments...


Yes it was FH R3 at around noon.

And your story was so great I just spit up Mt Dew all over my keyboard!

when we are all telling her fore fore fore, the disc comes between the dog and the girl and hits the leash, and of course stays inbounds.
If where the disc hit the leash was inbounds, then the disc would be played from there. Where it landed, either IB or OB, wouldn't matter.

so If my disc hits any one or an object on them then I take the disc from where it hits, so if inbounds then I take there and no penalty

i believe the rule to be: the leash would be considered part of the dog and u would play where it came to rest. leashed is attached to the dog ? ! right?

I'm sorry, it's played where it hits the leash only if the action was intentional. If not intentional, then it's played where it lands, even if OB, just as if the disc hit a tree and bounced. I doubt this woman was intentionally in play based on her surprise, so the player would get the lucky bounce into inbounds. If she picked it up and threw it OB, then the player gets it back where it first landed.

I may be wrong since I'm doing this from memory, but if the disc hit the leash, then landed OB, wouldn't the player also have the choice of a rethrow w/out penalty b/c of unintentional interference?

Rethrow only available as an option if there was intentional interference.

only chuck would be the first to respond to that and pose a rules question.

I love this sport!

I love all the many people we meet who love this sport, from rules and details to flip flops and hyzers its alot of fun

the dog and leash were inbounds, the disc was inbounds the whole time... The leash only cut off the path of the disc by a few feet since it was already on a skip...

Yes, I played with a broken big toe thanks for the inquiries. My first broken bone after all of those years of football, mtn. biking and defending the common man. I get take down by a Lazy Boy Recliner.:confused:



Now that's funny! :D

"the disc comes between the dog and the girl and hits the leash, and of course stays inbounds. But the funny part was that the Pug actually had the "sh$t scared out of him" and started pooping right there, with his leg still up!"

Now that was one of the funniest things i have ever heard!
I could actually picture this whole scenerio go down with this lil smashed faced pug, looking around wondering WTF just hit him! Alll while hes pooping, with his leg up!

I'm sorry, it's played where it hits the leash only if the action was intentional. If not intentional, then it's played where it lands, even if OB, just as if the disc hit a tree and bounced. I doubt this woman was intentionally in play based on her surprise, so the player would get the lucky bounce into inbounds.

Shouldn't the thrower get at least an 801.01 courtesy warning for throwing when it isn't safe due to the lady and/or dog peeing at or near the landing area?

In all seriousness, why is a pro throwing on a pedestrian that is obviously in the playing area?

is that a rule, cause i know from experience that if any one is potentially in the way, we wait for them to move...

Shouldn't the thrower get at least an 801.01 courtesy warning for throwing when it isn't safe due to the lady and/or dog peeing at or near the landing area?

In all seriousness, why is a pro throwing on a pedestrian that is obviously in the playing area?

I want to know why a pedestrian is wandering onto the course during an NT event in the first place. Some security effort should be made at high profile events to prevent this from happening. Otherwise, it's just another run-of-the-mill golf tournament.

I want to know why a pedestrian is wandering onto the course during an NT event in the first place. Some security effort should be made at high profile events to prevent this from happening. Otherwise, it's just another run-of-the-mill golf tournament.

You've apparently never been to Vista del Comino park in Scottsdale. It is multi-use park that isn't possible to keep pedesrians out of (nor would you want to, that would cause a lot of un-needed friction). And if you'd attended the Memorial you would never say its a "run-of-the-mill golf tournament". It isn't that hard to wait a few seconds for the pedestrians to walk by.

I want to know why a pedestrian is wandering onto the course during an NT event in the first place. Some security effort should be made at high profile events to prevent this from happening. Otherwise, it's just another run-of-the-mill golf tournament.
Wow, that is one bold statement "run-of-the-mill" for someone who has never played at Vista. This is probably one of the best mixed use parks I have ever played at. Great that the community there supports disc golf on this beautiful recreational course.

So my good story of the events come in two parts, back to back. Carl Renda, after coming from a year long recovery from after breaking his arm, played a solid 3rd round at FH. On hole 6, while witnessing a lot of players lay up, Carl outside the circle, ran the basket with a slight downhill slope with water edge behind, and nailed his birdie putt. Great shot to go for it and gave him the confidence to top the best players in San Diego with only two months back in the swing. Right after we got up the hill on hole 8, two cards behind, a player aced on hole 6. Two great shots witnessed in a big field of spectators!

qiestion if the 2 meter rule is not in effect? that means that if ur disc gets stuck in a tree its an OB shot you take a stroke and play it...?

No, as long as the tree is inbounds you mark the lie directly below where the disc is with no penalty.

No, as long as the tree is inbounds you mark the lie directly below where the disc is with no penalty.
A long as the disc's position in the tree (not just the tree trunk itself) is over inbounds, it's inbounds with no penalty. If it's in a branch suspended over OB, then it's OB and you get the penalty and mark according to OB rules.

A long as the disc's position in the tree (not just the tree trunk itself) is over inbounds, it's inbounds with no penalty. If it's in a branch suspended over OB, then it's OB and you get the penalty and mark according to OB rules.


what if it's windy and it's blowing back and forth and you are unable to tell where the branch's resting position would normally be?

It isn't that hard to wait a few seconds for the pedestrians to walk by.

In fact, it's very easy to wait for bikini-clad women on roller blades to cruise by.

what if the majority of the tree is OB but the branch where my disc is IB >????

what if the majority of the tree is OB but the branch where my disc is IB >????

Answered already. All that matters is if your disc itself is over any IB or completely over OB.
what if it's windy and it's blowing back and forth and you are unable to tell where the branch's resting position would normally be?
Group call with benefit of the doubt to the player.

thanks, i like this rule, I can throw big up and over pancake shots with no fear.....

Wow, that is one bold statement "run-of-the-mill" for someone who has never played at Vista. This is probably one of the best mixed use parks I have ever played at. Great that the community there supports disc golf on this beautiful recreational course.

You and Jerry have both misinterpreted what I said. I made no qualitative comment about the course or the tournament for that matter, as I have seen neither.

Nonetheless, crowd control should be a consideration at high profile events such as NT tournaments. If I was paying big bucks to play in an NT event, I would be miffed if people were walking through the course at random, unaware that a disc golf tournament was in process. That just doesn't sound like an enjoyable event to me. However, if, as Jerry says, it is impossible and undesireable to keep these folks off the course, then so be it. I understand that sometimes you have to make concessions.

qiestion if the 2 meter rule is not in effect? that means that if ur disc gets stuck in a tree its an OB shot you take a stroke and play it...?


Pet Peeve alert!



Calling a disc above 2 meters OB. Grrrrr!:mad:



Sorry KVDP. :o

You and Jerry have both misinterpreted what I said. I made no qualitative comment about the course or the tournament for that matter, as I have seen neither.

Nonetheless, crowd control should be a consideration at high profile events such as NT tournaments. If I was paying big bucks to play in an NT event, I would be miffed if people were walking through the course at random, unaware that a disc golf tournament was in process. That just doesn't sound like an enjoyable event to me. However, if, as Jerry says, it is impossible and undesireable to keep these folks off the course, then so be it. I understand that sometimes you have to make concessions.

It isn't like they are walking through the course. They are walking on a path that runs 3 -7 miles through the center of Scottsdale's really nice green belt system. The path is OB. Plus when you see who is walking on the path, you'll let it slide. See the earlier story about the oiled up sunbathing roller blader :eek:.

Pet Peeve alert!



Calling a disc above 2 meters OB. Grrrrr!:mad:



Sorry KVDP. :o

what do you mean? whay i said or the Rule sucks? lol i dont get it.
I ahve played both ways and b/c I throw pancakes alot i like it when its not

so whats the "normal Rule" now...if a disc is in a tree it is not OB ??

There is very little chance that a player on the 18th tee can tell who is in bounds, on the path or on the other side of the path out of bounds at VDC. It all sort of blends together when it's 300-350 feet away. The girl and her dog approached the doggie bag station probably just when the guy teed off. There were at least 50-100 people in the area so it is all a blur to the people on the 18th tee. Anyone who sees footage of the memorial will understand... I have a video put together but am waiting for the 30 minute video to come out first before I spoil anything...

also, is there a link to the list of winners of prizes for the live stream internet feed deal?

Any word on the final day video through todocast? It was supposed to be up Monday, and I totally understand that things get pushed back from time to time. Has there been a new ETA established? I'm tired of going to the site and being let down.

I too am wondering.... PDGA should send out another email with some kind of update. The last email said about the video "soon" and the winners of the prizes during the broadcast was going to be contacted "this week"... One day to go on that one.

I can't wait to see what they put together!

is that a rule, cause i know from experience that if any one is potentially in the way, we wait for them to move...

I gave you the rule number. You should look it up and see.


so whats the "normal Rule" now...if a disc is in a tree it is not OB ??

Again, your screen name says you are a "Disc Pro". You should read the PDGA rule book. It's only about 40 quarter-size pages. Maybe a couple of dumps and you are through it.

Calling a disc above 2 meters O.B. causes problems when you try to apply the PDGA rules of play for how to proceed when a disc comes to rest O.B.

The people hanging out IS the bonus of the ginormous tourney. 400 golfers- they had to notice and I betcha we have a handful of new golfers because of it. I LOVE to pass my plastic addiction along.

2 meter rule- only stupid thing in disc golf. If you are going to make me take a stroke and shoot out of the tree? give me the TWO strokes and let me OUT of the posion ivy. Please.

2 meter rule- only stupid thing in disc golf.

No way. The free re-throw for first foot fault is infinitely more stupid. I could go on.

I gave you the rule number. You should look it up and see.




Again, your screen name says you are a "Disc Pro". You should read the PDGA rule book. It's only about 40 quarter-size pages. Maybe a couple of dumps and you are through it.

Calling a disc above 2 meters O.B. causes problems when you try to apply the PDGA rules of play for how to proceed when a disc comes to rest O.B.


A disc above 2 meters incurs a height penalty if that rule is being used.

If there is a magical OB zone 2 meters above the throwing surface then the disc is OB the instance it gets above 2 meters, usually a few feet from the thrower. Having to determine that point with every throw would really slow the game down.

hey Rhett

what do you mean? whay i said or the Rule sucks? lol i dont get it.
I ahve played both ways and b/c I throw pancakes alot i like it when its not



Again, just a personal pet peeve that makes the rules harder to explain or interpret properly.


A disc suspended above 2 meters (when that rule is in effect) is NOT OB!!! It is simply over two meters. By calling it OB, one could presume that a player could use the OB rules (803.09) to determine the consequences. However, it is "NOT OB", so players should use the "Disc Suspended Above the Playing Surface" rules (803.08) to determine how to proceed.



Back to the discussion....

I gave you the rule number. You should look it up and see.




Again, your screen name says you are a "Disc Pro". You should read the PDGA rule book. It's only about 40 quarter-size pages. Maybe a couple of dumps and you are through it.

Calling a disc above 2 meters O.B. causes problems when you try to apply the PDGA rules of play for how to proceed when a disc comes to rest O.B.

wow, yes sir, sorry sir, Im so sorry for asking, its a forum and i ask, again im so sorry for bothering u .

wow, yes sir, sorry sir, Im so sorry for asking, its a forum and i ask, again im so sorry for bothering u .

If there's one thing I've learned about the messageboard it is to never take anything said here personally. Often times people post something thinking it is a joke and then it is mis-interpretted by the other person as an insult since you can't gauge emotion or intent on electronic communication.

bull.

bull.

heifer.

wow, yes sir, sorry sir, Im so sorry for asking, its a forum and i ask, again im so sorry for bothering u .

I apologize for the harsh reply. It just seemed rather odd that someone would ask "is that a rule" when I gave the rule number.

I'm a weirdo in that I pay for PDGA membership and I compete in PDGA sanctioned events, so I figure I should read the PDGA rulebook and try to know and follow the rules when I play.

The part I apologize for is assuming others are weird like me.

Oh, Rhett...

You can apologize for a harsh reply, but...

Please don't apologize for being a DISC GOLF RULES ZEALOT!!!

official suggested guidelines please.

I'm a weirdo in that I pay for PDGA membership and I compete in PDGA sanctioned events, so I figure I should read the PDGA rulebook and try to know and follow the rules when I play.

How dare you?!?! Isn't that in itself a violation of the phantasmal "Spirit of the Game" rule that is so often bandied about?:p

yep I get it, I have always had a rule nazi as a close friend so i can always ask for rules and policy, besides I work for the State and all I do is read and trasnpose Policy so theres no way Im gonna read it for Disc Golf lol, I know Im lazy and I should.
I will try and brush up beore my NT event .....I just try and keep my disc IB so I dont have to deal with stuff...

but thanks

yep I get it, I have always had a rule nazi as a close friend so i can always ask for rules and policy, besides I work for the State and all I do is read and trasnpose Policy so theres no way Im gonna read it for Disc Golf lol, I know Im lazy and I should.
I will try and brush up beore my NT event .....I just try and keep my disc IB so I dont have to deal with stuff...

but thanks

You know if you cut down from 3 posts in a row 3 minutes apart in all the threads you post on - you could read the book from cover to cover carefully in about a 1/2 hour.

Just cut down to 2 threads instead of 5-10 for 1 day, read the rulebook and it would be all over - then you could go right back to all posting all the time AS WELL AS KNOWING the rulebook. :)

thanks but I like being online better than books, i just finished college and have all the book reading i want for about 2 years......lol

So youre not going to read again for 2 years? Being done with "college" hopefully doesnt mean you wont read anymore!!...

You can read the rules online as well, you don't have to actually read the "book" version. Also, you should just learn them and play by them, not just "brush up" before you play an NT.

I was critical earlier of the Internet footage and still am because Im a customer. I have no problem with the $20 and will continue to support disc golf everyway I can. And STILL no footage from Day 4. If we are going to be satisfied with this then we will not go further. I used to live literally on Vista (07-09) regular hole 17s tee pad, those condos. We moved to Dallas for professional reasons (I am a professional musician) and we miss AZ like crazy! You can watch tons of great disc golf for free on line and not to mention DVDs...I hope it gets better!!!
Cheers

Here's a video from the Memorial.
I've been waiting to post to allow the official footage to come out but time goes by.

There's two and I'll have the other uploaded soon.(Sorry about the interlacing)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=exEtgagQn44&feature=channel

wow. just watched the final day coverage - and just found out i won the revolution 'carolina' team bag! does anyone know how we go about claiming the prizes?

thanks in advance.

wow. just watched the final day coverage - and just found out i won the revolution 'carolina' team bag! does anyone know how we go about claiming the prizes?

thanks in advance.

where did you find the prize winners info?

where did you find the prize winners info?

i was just watching the final day highlights and watched and heard liz carr pick and say my name as the winner.

i was just watching the final day highlights and watched and heard liz carr pick and say my name as the winner.

Was there a basket in the prize give away?

John said he would post a list of winners. I'll email him and ask where it got posted.

Yeah... there were plenty of Deaf viewers and the "hearing announcement on video" is a bit ignorant if there is no text list published for all to see...

search "deafpower12" on youtube, got over 30 videos, 5 from this year already... 2 from the memorial...

I received an email with a list of the raffle winners. I assume that everyone who signed up received one.

that's what I'm talking about, beautiful... thanks