I heard a story today about a player getting caught changing his score after his card had signed off but before he turned it in. The TD's were aware of the situation and made threats but ultimately did nothing. Is this true?

I heard a story today about a player getting caught changing his score after his card had signed off but before he turned it in. The TD's were aware of the situation and made threats but ultimately did nothing. Is this true?



If so they dropped the ball.

c'mon. 8 hours on here, 158 people have looked at this and no one knows anything?

This website was dead for about 3-4 hours and it's a holiday weekend. You still can't bring up tournament results.

Taboo

I heard a story today about a player getting caught changing his score after his card had signed off but before he turned it in. The TD's were aware of the situation and made threats but ultimately did nothing. Is this true?



If so they dropped the ball.



agreed... was this on the pro or am side?

How can you PROVE cheating?

All the guy has to say is "I really thought I got an X on that hole and not a Y and I thought my group was cheating me out of a stroke, so I changed it. I realize my mistake was I should have notified my group instead of doing it the way I did, that was an error in judgment on my end."

i don't want to start any rumors, but the story as told to me was...
card A finished the round and sat down to total the scores. everyone checked everybody's score and they all signed the card. player A said he would turn the card in. on the way to do so, he erased one hole's score and the total and marked down the "new" score. in the process of turning it in, player B from the same card happened to notice this and reported it. supposedly, the TD's threatened to DQ him from the tournament and attempt to suspend PDGA membership. none of these ended up happening.

again, this is all told to me 3rd hand at best. this is why i am seeking some proof or refutation.

again, this is all told to me 3rd hand at best. this is why i am seeking some proof or refutation.



And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?

it concerns me greatly if this is true. on the surface we have a clear cut case of cheating at the highest level of our tournament structure with apparently nothing being done.

if this is true, shouldn't it matter to all of us?

because we want to ensure the ASSociation we are a part of does the right thing.

Was Boro there? He is the only player that I know that continually gets away with cheating without consequence. :o

I would say it's good to bring it to light, because if you cheat you should wear that albatross around your neck and get a scarlet letter tattooed to your forehead.

again, this is all told to me 3rd hand at best. this is why i am seeking some proof or refutation.



And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?



He and others (if they knew) should care... I actually think its kind of sad that you dont.

He is involved as a member of the PDGA he has a vested interest in this sport and how our tournaments (especially ones to decide the 'best in the world') are held. It doesnt matter if this person was on the lead card in the pro division or near the bottom of advanced it sets a precedent that its ok to cheat and if you get caught you may not get punished.

i'm not involved in and dont care about PGA golf much (no not comparing the sports) but if I heard someone did this at any tournament and they basically got away with it even though the officials knew about it I would be utterly disappointed and it would indelibly leave a stain on that sport.

hey kev,

i don't know him and i hope you are joking. i don't want this to turn into a mud fight with people's names being mentioned. i really just want somebody with specific knowledge to say "yes" or "no".

I'm sort of Joking :DHe has been caught cheating a handful of times therefore he is fair game to humiliate.

Vijay Singh is still labeled a cheater on the PGA and he did it 30 + years ago in Asia

There are several calls made at every Worlds and there's no precedent for explaining these rulings nor calling out the players unless they are cited by the Disciplinary Committee. Discussing any of that here is the equivalent of tabloid journalism at its worst. I have no knowledge of the issue being questioned but have been familiar with a few dozen calls at Worlds over the years. If anything, I'd like to see rulings published that were unusual in terms of how rules interpretations were made without identifying the players involved. But routine rulings, which may be all this is, are just that, routine. If it's a special situation subject to review, then the members will learn about it via the Disciplinary Committee ruling if it involves a further penalty.

c'mon chuck. i'm not asking about the myriad of calls or hypothetical situations. i am not asking for any names. to compare a member in good standing, who is seeking information, with well stated intentions, no malice in mind and admiting that the sources were not immediate to the item in question, with the worst that tabloid journalism has to offer is just plain not fair. easy on the defense mechanisms.

Of course, it's remotely possible that nothing happened, at least as presented by this grapevine, hence no one with actual knowledge jumping in here to explain.

Also conceivable that, with 800 players scattered over a dozen courses, one player comes in after scorecards are turned in to say another player cheated---but the TD may not be able to gather the other witnesses or, by the time he does, they may not remember the accused's score on a particular hole, anyway. If it's the difference between the alleged cheater finishing 269th or 274th, how much effort is it worth?

This wouldn't be the place to get accurate information unless the person(s) involved wish to post. Even then, that would be their point of view. If there are concerns, then contact the Worlds staff directly. The PDGA would likely not be involved unless a marshal happened to be there or the issue was sent for disciplinary action but you could also contact Gentry if necessary to ask.

[/QUOTE]
And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?

[/QUOTE]



WHAT A GREAT STATEMENT








it matters because EVERYONE should be held to same standard, it matters becuase because golf is a game of integrity, it matters because we care about our sport........do i really need to keep listing reasons.


I cant believe someone actually said that WWWWOOOOOWWWWWW

david,

you are right. nothing may have happened. the reason i think it would be remembered is because, as the story was told to me, there was a big deal made at the time with no follow through.

as to your second question...does it really matter? absolutely! aren't we interested in integrity anymore?

Jamie,

Just remember, Chuck is never wrong.

I heard of another incident of cheating. An Adv. Master had a weight taped to the inside rim of his disc to help with his turnover shots. He got stroked for using an illegal disc from what I heard. :o

It would be a HUGE deal if the alleged person took home a paycheck that he didn't deserve.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7420

adam,

what was the purpose of that link?

david,

you are right. nothing may have happened. the reason i think it would be remembered is because, as the story was told to me, there was a big deal made at the time with no follow through.

as to your second question...does it really matter? absolutely! aren't we interested in integrity anymore?



I didn't mean to imply that I don't think it matters. Just that it may be impractical to pursue under certain circumstances. At a normal tournament, it's fairly easy for the TD to reconvene the group and try to determine the facts. Logistically, at Worlds, it may not be. Should the TD just take the complaintant's word, against the accused? Or track down other members of the group, who may be scattered on different courses by then or at different hotels? If you ask me an hour later what someone else in my group shot on a particular hole, or even for a particular round, I probably don't know. On top of which, the TDs at Worlds have already have a bit of work to do.

If it's one of the lead groups in the Pros, with significant money at stake, maybe it's worthwhile. Otherwise, it may be very important in principle, but less so in practice.

adam,

what was the purpose of that link?



what he said...

Basically someone who cashed at that tournament got accused of cheating.

Heard about it this weekend from somone who saw it / in the group. Not heresay.

Not naming who, b/c it's pointless.

Once again, we'll protect a shyster.

Name names and watch the behavior clean up. Folks don't like to be known as cheaters.

The rumor is that it wasn't at the bottom of the division in question. In my opinion, when a rumor likes this starts at a major event, the TD and the PDGA should publically come out and quelch it, or explain their side, rather than act like it is best handled behind closed doors.

Additionally, why doesn't the Rules Committee put an end to pencil whipping. Our scoring system is ridiculous. There should be more than one card for every group and both cards need to get turned in. Pencil whipping would then be a relic of an old, dysfunctional system.

I heard of another incident of cheating. An Adv. Master had a weight taped to the inside rim of his disc to help with his turnover shots. He got stroked for using an illegal disc from what I heard. :o



you gotta be kidding me?!... i didnt think anyone actually did anything like that. might want to check that persons birth certificate.. they may also be lying about their age to play masters!

I hate cheaters! They SUCK!!!

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Singh/Singh%20Images/Singh_Art.01.gif

http://www.villagegallery.com/big025/sholl_mcguire.jpg



http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0607/gallery.caughtcheating/images/CYCLING-LANDIS.jpg

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0607/gallery.caughtcheating/images/001069216.jpg

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0607/gallery.caughtcheating/images/IAFF_JOH.jpg

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/tonya_harding_a.jpg

Danny Almonte had no knowledge of the age thing. His father lied to him. Bad example.

The rest....well....

The worst part is thinking about how many times they got away with it.....

Maybe we should just ask the person if he cheated. WTF? Couldn't beleive I actually heard that.

Dixon,
Your story is close, a bit off, wrong tourney.

I heard a story today about a player getting caught changing his score after his card had signed off but before he turned it in. The TD's were aware of the situation and made threats but ultimately did nothing. Is this true?



Your facts are wrong. There was an incident on the Am side that did not involve any player in contention for even the last cash spot that was suspected of pencil whipping. After doing a pretty thorough investigation, there was enough reasonable doubt that we really couldn't DQ the player in question.

Chap

Basically someone who cashed at that tournament got accused of cheating.

Heard about it this weekend from somone who saw it / in the group. Not heresay.

Not naming who, b/c it's pointless.



Why is it pointless? If the person did it they crossed a significant line and they should be up for ridicule. When a bank robber passes over the line of good and bad they are up for public humiliation when their mug shot is thrown up on the news. Then they do years in exile in prison....When a disc golfer does it they should spend a year or two off in exile too so they can contemplate if it was really worth it or not. That one measly stroke that got you an extra $100 or missing the game you love for 2 years.

I'm with McCaine, 2 scorecards would be good...seems to be the brightest McCain in AMERICA :o

john,

thank you very much for answering the question. i have no desire to start a witch hunt. just some public accountability for the benefit of all of us.

this attitude of "i do alot of work therefore you shouldn't question me" is getting old. (i'm not at all saying this about the group that hosted worlds. i have just run across it too much when sheisty things are happening)

Actually, it was more like $250.

Basically someone who cashed at that tournament got accused of cheating.

Heard about it this weekend from somone who saw it / in the group. Not heresay.

Not naming who, b/c it's pointless.



Why is it pointless?



Pointless = bad choice of words.

As a member of the discipline committee, I can't say names and stuff. However, most people know who it is and I'm sure someone will eventually leak it out.

If I was not on the discipline committee, I would have no issues naming the person right now.

I heard of another incident of cheating. An Adv. Master had a weight taped to the inside rim of his disc to help with his turnover shots. He got stroked for using an illegal disc from what I heard. :o



A friend of mine (Super Dave) was in the group that found the weighted disc and turned it in to the TD. Player was stroked.

you forgot one kev, from your beloved cubbies.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/michael_bamberger/07/10/cheating.essay/t1-sosa.jpg

corking, it's not just for wine bottles anymore!

mark,

stroked?!?!?! caught with a purposely modified illegal disc and all he got was a stroke?

you forgot one kev, from your beloved cubbies.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/michael_bamberger/07/10/cheating.essay/t1-sosa.jpg

corking, it's not just for wine bottles anymore!



I've disowned him and all of his records :D you could add

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2003/08/10/rangers_palmeiro_ap/t1_palmeiro_all.jpg & http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2401/1869313328_c8ead97f1d.jpg

In my opinion, when a rumor likes this starts at a major event, the TD and the PDGA should publically come out and quelch it, or explain their side, rather than act like it is best handled behind closed doors.



It's not the responsibility of the TD nor PDGA to answer rumors, especially on here. If you need the answers, contact the TD and/or PDGA. All members are afforded due process on claims of not following the rules and other members should allow that process to proceed to a verdict. Those who are disciplined are posted for all members to see.

The implication from the witch hunters on here is that somehow players are getting away with things and officials are not doing anything about it. First line of defense is players themselves having enough honor to actually follow the rules. Second line is for other players in the group to make the calls. Third is the official or TD getting the correct or enough information to make the calls. You've all seen enough crime shows to know there's a minimum level of acceptable evidence required to charge let alone convict someone. If an official, TD or PDGA doesn't have that level of evidence, what do you expect them to do? Are we to track how many events each player is "suspected of cheating but never proven?"

I heard a rumor that someone was crossing dressing at worlds and played in the Female Pro division; is this true? I mean come on! Are we gonna stand for this!

And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?

[/QUOTE]

Fail! Are you serious Chuck. So on behalf of the PDGA (that's who you represent and work for) cheating should only matter if your involved. Let's forget that this player will play in other events and probably continue to cheat. I guess all the people that get cheated in those events should be the only ones that are concerned about a cheater. Right? I wasn't at world's this year so yes it doesn't effect me, but it does. Your one line statement says it doesn't matter. Why should paying members not care? It does effect us all because if one player can beat the system then 2 will and 3 and so on. So chuck, next time how about looking into the question instead of saying "And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?"

Chuck, quit covering up, we all know it was you! Just admit it, you added twenty strokes to lower your rating thus gaining an advantage in future tournaments. We know Chuck; when the SuperClass starts you're going to mop up with your newer lower rating in the Advanced class. You're going to make millions of dollars selling plastic to public parks who you've bilked into signing exclusive deals where they will buy plastic from you and sell to newbies too dumb to realize they can buy on-line.

Soon, you'll start your own plastic company "Chuck Up Discs" that will sell recycled plastic made from contaminated Uranium containers thus sterilizing your main competitors so you can win even more tournaments when they become depressed at their lack of... productivity.

Soon, you'll shave your head, pick your nose with your pinky, and laugh evily "Bwa ha ha ha ha ha", as you rule the disc golf world...

And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?



Fail! Are you serious Chuck. So on behalf of the PDGA (that's who you represent and work for) cheating should only matter if your involved. Let's forget that this player will play in other events and probably continue to cheat. I guess all the people that get cheated in those events should be the only ones that are concerned about a cheater. Right? I wasn't at world's this year so yes it doesn't effect me, but it does. Your one line statement says it doesn't matter. Why should paying members not care? It does effect us all because if one player can beat the system then 2 will and 3 and so on. So chuck, next time how about looking into the question instead of saying "And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?"

[/QUOTE]

Let me interpret for Chuck if I might. When I was in charge of the DC we got numerous complaints about players, some legitimate and some not. If the case was reviewed and it was determined that there was lack of information or the person was innocent, it became a case of not your business. We live in a country where one is innocent until proven guilty. While the PDGA is, fortunately, not a government entity, the basic concept is a good one. So, unless you were involved, well, it really isn't your business.

On the other hand, if an investigation shows that there was provable guilt, after a ruling has been made and acted on by the DC under the direction of the Board, then it becomes the business of the membership. Until then it is just gossip and potentially damaging gossip.

Hey, did you hear that Climo cross dressed at Worlds?

I heard a rumor that someone was crossing dressing at worlds and played in the Female Pro division; is this true? I mean come on! Are we gonna stand for this!



Dude really is a lady!

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a8/MrsGarrison.png

Fail! Are you serious Chuck.


Answered already. Most know me as a rules person so don't get on your high horse. There's a difference between a witch hunt and finding out info thru proper channels. I can take the heat as I regularly do. But spreading rumors about other individuals who don't even know that's happening to them isn't cool. I'm simply defending good information, not that it shouldn't be made available if relevant.

Should players who get penalties for mis-adding scorecards in their favor be posted on the PDGA site as potentially suspicious since we don't really know if they meant to do it or not? That's what people seem to want here is to potentially track suspicious behavior even with no proof.

Fail! Are you serious Chuck.


Answered already. Most know me as a rules person so don't get on your high horse. There's a difference between a witch hunt and finding out info thru proper channels. I can take the heat as I regularly do. But spreading rumors about other individuals who don't even know that's happening to them isn't cool. I'm simply defending good information, not that it shouldn't be made available if relevant.

Should players who get penalties for mis-adding scorecards in their favor be posted on the PDGA site as potentially suspicious since we don't really know if they meant to do it or not? That's what people seem to want here is to potentially track suspicious behavior even with no proof.



I wonder how Chuck would look with a shaved head and a dress? What do you think Kev? Nice legs?

And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?



Fail! Are you serious Chuck. So on behalf of the PDGA (that's who you represent and work for) cheating should only matter if your involved. Let's forget that this player will play in other events and probably continue to cheat. I guess all the people that get cheated in those events should be the only ones that are concerned about a cheater. Right? I wasn't at world's this year so yes it doesn't effect me, but it does. Your one line statement says it doesn't matter. Why should paying members not care? It does effect us all because if one player can beat the system then 2 will and 3 and so on. So chuck, next time how about looking into the question instead of saying "And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?"

[/QUOTE]

chuck doesn't work or the pdga nor does he represent them in any official fashion on this type of issue. i do agree that it matters whether you were involved or not.

we had an advanced player in VA who was a known cheat for a long time. however no one in his group ever officially made a complaint- preference was to [censored] about it afterwards and yell "cheater" at awards ceremonies. without the other players directly involved doing anything there is nothing for organizers to do. in the case of the VA player i had told numerous players that if they wanted something done someone would have to man up and make the complaint...never happened. haven't seen the player in several years so it's a dead issue now.

Should players who get penalties for mis-adding scorecards in their favor be posted on the PDGA site as potentially suspicious since we don't really know if they meant to do it or not? That's what people seem to want here is to potentially track suspicious behavior even with no proof.



I keep bringing up Vijay but if you look at all of Vijay's bio's the 1985 incident is in there. He said that he just signed the card without checking in disgust after playing a bad round but in GOLF cheating is almost worse than murder, and it should be same in Disc Golf

I don't really want to visualize Chuckles as a lady, it may disrupt my libido for a week or two and I don't want to go there :D

It's not the responsibility of the TD nor PDGA to answer rumors, especially on here. If you need the answers, contact the TD and/or PDGA. All members are afforded due process on claims of not following the rules and other members should allow that process to proceed to a verdict. Those who are disciplined are posted for all members to see.





Yes Chuck, it is best for the PDGA to allow rumors to ferment, to give everyone with an inclination to doubt the PDGA more reasons. A very sound policy.

Witch Hunters? blah, blah blah. The perception amongst a lot of players is that the PDGA doesn't care much about cheating and sportsmanship. I said perception, not that it is true. This perception will justifiably lead to players questioning things. It's just natural. By the way, acting as if all criticism is unjustified does nothing to arrest these perceptions. Neither does lame sarcasm. However, strict rebuttals or explanations, ala Chapman's, do.

I heard a rumor that someone was crossing dressing at worlds and played in the Female Pro division; is this true? I mean come on! Are we gonna stand for this!



Dude really is a lady!

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a8/MrsGarrison.png



http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg256/atl_lumberjack/Renee_Richards.jpg

chuck,

what are the proper channels for an outsider? (being that i wasn't at the tournament) where do i find the disciplinary comittee reports?

Chapman happens to be one of the few officials who posts here and Graham does if he's forced to do so. This is not the place to post questions nor expect responses on official matters. If you get official responses, it's only because one of the few official posters accidentally happened to see it or hear about it. Posters should realize that by now but they get free reign to spread those negative perceptions.

And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?



Fail! Are you serious Chuck. So on behalf of the PDGA (that's who you represent and work for) cheating should only matter if your involved. Let's forget that this player will play in other events and probably continue to cheat. I guess all the people that get cheated in those events should be the only ones that are concerned about a cheater. Right? I wasn't at world's this year so yes it doesn't effect me, but it does. Your one line statement says it doesn't matter. Why should paying members not care? It does effect us all because if one player can beat the system then 2 will and 3 and so on. So chuck, next time how about looking into the question instead of saying "And why does it matter to you unless you were involved?"



chuck doesn't work or the pdga nor does he represent them in any official fashion on this type of issue. i do agree that it matters whether you were involved or not.

we had an advanced player in VA who was a known cheat for a long time. however no one in his group ever officially made a complaint- preference was to [censored] about it afterwards and yell "cheater" at awards ceremonies. without the other players directly involved doing anything there is nothing for organizers to do. in the case of the VA player i had told numerous players that if they wanted something done someone would have to man up and make the complaint...never happened. haven't seen the player in several years so it's a dead issue now.

[/QUOTE]

This is a completely different situation, but not in the way you think. When I was with the DC we had this one to deal with also. If a player broke the rules, and no one had the cahonies to step up and say something in any situation other than the awards ceremony, then the player is innocent. We are a self regulated organization where it is the responsibility of our members to call infractions, not to spread rumors.

There used to be a time when it was felt we'd rather let 10 guilty go than convict one innocent. Now we want to hang anyone we don't like. One has to wonder how many times this player broke the rules and how many times people thought he broke the rules? One real call would have solved the problem, instead, he is being hung behind his back and that hanging is still going on. Better to call the infraction, and let the DC deal with it.

Even if you lack the strength of character to confront on the field (this is more the norm than the exception) simply go to the TD later. If that doesn't work, go directly to the DC and ask them to keep a record on the guy. If enough complaints come in they can (if the evidence is compelling) inform TDs in an area to watch for incidents.

Keep in mind that the DC is a rational group with guidelines. It takes good evidence, not hearsay to get them to act. While on the DC, I read some great descriptions of misbehavior that came in with no corroborating evidence or commentary by other players or TDs. Very few things happen in a vacuum. If they do, that's just tough, the guy is innocent until he messes up in front of more than one witness.

what are the proper channels for an outsider? (being that i wasn't at the tournament) where do i find the disciplinary comittee reports?


Information menu:
www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary.php (http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary.php)

And the Disciplinary Committee is on the PDGA Contact menu for direct email

It may not be the "official" place or proper channel, but the fact is that it exists and is an important communication medium, whether it should be or not. Speaking for myself, every time a PDGA official posts a rebuttal, corrects the facts, or simply just gives their side of the story, I feel more confident about the organization. I bet others do also. The "just trust us" act you always promote breeds suspicion.

chuck,

what are the proper channels for an outsider? (being that i wasn't at the tournament) where do i find the disciplinary comittee reports?



DC reports are not published, for the reason that a person should not be punished overtly. This is a tough call that while I was there was debated hotly. A summary report of the person, what they did wrong, and type of punishment is on this site (I think you can find the link on the home page). This is a compromise meant to inform our membership without punishing those involved unduly. Morally, the right thing to do here is tough. I don't necessarily agree with the path taken, but I won't argue that it isn't reasonably fair and well thought out.

The correct channel to take if you have an incident is to go to the TD. He is responsible for investigating the event. If the TD is not responsive, you can go directly to the DC (there is an e-mail list somewhere on this site). However, the very first thing the DC does is go to the TD. TDs see a lot and their perspective of what constitutes an incident may differ from yours. Is the system perfect? Possibly not, but it is fair and on the conservative (in terms of protecting every ones rights) side, where IMO it should be.

Once again, we'll protect a shyster.

Name names and watch the behavior clean up. Folks don't like to be known as cheaters.



I second this. I'll trash Blake Huffman of Oklahoma City as long as I live. He took from the entire OKC club, also took in new member's money- who never got turned in. What would you think if you had paid him your new membership dues? He also never turned in the results of the tourney which effected all of us paying members as far as ratings, etc go.

Bust them out! :D

In the initial post for this thread, if someone wants to hear about a cheating incident, they can ask if someone knows about it. However, the question immediately implied that the real problem was that the TD didn't do anything about it and along with that the implication the PDGA was somehow at fault or covering things up. It's the blatant or veiled inferences when simply asking for information might result in getting it answered. If it's not answered here, it doesn't mean a cover up but simply that it's not the place to get that particular answer.

i see a new thread coming on... 'HALL OF SHAME'

looking @ the current disc. list I think its interesting that there seems to be such a big issue with people cheating and nobody currently on the list is there for cheating - 804.05 A (3)

I hate cheaters! They SUCK!!!

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Singh/Singh%20Images/Singh_Art.01.gif

http://www.villagegallery.com/big025/sholl_mcguire.jpg



http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0607/gallery.caughtcheating/images/CYCLING-LANDIS.jpg

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0607/gallery.caughtcheating/images/001069216.jpg

http://i.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0607/gallery.caughtcheating/images/IAFF_JOH.jpg

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/tonya_harding_a.jpg



Wheres Sosa cubby?

It may not be the "official" place or proper channel, but the fact is that it exists and is an important communication medium, whether it should be or not. Speaking for myself, every time a PDGA official posts a rebuttal, corrects the facts, or simply just gives their side of the story, I feel more confident about the organization. I bet others do also. The "just trust us" act you always promote breeds suspicion.



You know James, you're going to have to knock this off, I'm starting to agree with you more than I'd like!

Here's the problem, there is no clear structure in place for how the PDGA should respond to these kinds of incidents. Indeed, as we've seen all to often, there is no structure in place for responding to anything that happens on this site. There are several problems that exist. First, much of what happens here is garbage, do we want the PDGA to have to come on here and respond to every bit of garbage that gets posted here? Who determines what is a legitimate question or criticism? Honestly, 80% of those who post here would argue that I never raise a legitimate point (O.K. so it's more like 99%). Do you want the PDGA answering to me? What about MTL or Matt, angry young males who feel that the PDGA should not charge them anything to belong but should ensure they can make a living at this sport (I'm just kidding M & M, don't get your knickers up). How do you decide?

On the other hand I agree with you, there needs to be an official policy for how the PDGA responds. It can't simply be Brian G. coming in to do damage control. It would need to be efficient and I'm not sure I can see a way to do that in a responsible manner without impinging on other PDGA functions. So, if you have a thought, let us know.

Once again, we'll protect a shyster.

Name names and watch the behavior clean up. Folks don't like to be known as cheaters.



I second this. I'll trash Blake Huffman of Oklahoma City as long as I live. He took from the entire OKC club, also took in new member's money- who never got turned in. What would you think if you had paid him your new membership dues? He also never turned in the results of the tourney which effected all of us paying members as far as ratings, etc go.

Bust them out! :D



Again, this is a different situation if I recall correctly. There was ample evidence and the player was cited and punished by the PDGA. Trash away! BTW, if Tanya were to cross dress, would she look like Blake?

Here's a positive ruling from Worlds. A new Course Director was frustrated telling me that he had sort of gotten "scammed" by a player who indicated that a certain scenario happened regarding a line call and he later found out it wasn't that way at all after they had already made a ruling in that player's favor. I told him the event wasn't over and all rulings were subject to change and to contact Gentry regarding this. The ruling was changed after appropriately verifying the information, so the player didn't get away with their action.

chuck,

a couple of things...
you have to admit that when a question is posed and the first response i got from you (i don't know exactly who you are but it would seem that you are "officially" involved with the infrastructure of the PDGA) is "what does it matter to you" is a little bit suspicious.

i was not implying anything. i was outright asking if the TD's knew about the incident.

there is no need to get riled up when an organization is publically asked for accountability. john chapman got on here and answered the question plainly and gave reasoning. i consider the matter settled unless some new information comes about.

If an official, TD or PDGA doesn't have that level of evidence, what do you expect them to do? Are we to track how many events each player is "suspected of cheating but never proven?"



Yes they should be tracking if a player is accused of cheating. Also obviously there is steam to this issue. The PDGA should get out in front. Set the record straight, instead of just not doing anything. Ask anyone in the public light, they'll tell you, you have to manage these types of situations instead of letting them manage you. Take Baseball and steroids. Poorly managed, didn't respond publically, end badly. Take Armstrong, he managed the situation, acted proactivly, ended well.

You are wrong chuck, there aren't any whic

i think we dont hear much about cheating on the disclipinary list is due to the mods being too busy looking for MISSPELLED CURSE WORDS!!! :confused:

The PDGA keeps scores and provides a rating. Depending on much more than that is asking alot, IMO.

In the last 2 years Ive really found myself questioning about everything the PDGA is "about".

What about MTL or Matt, angry young males who feel that the PDGA should not charge them anything to belong but should ensure they can make a living at this sport (I'm just kidding M & M, don't get your knickers up). How do you decide?




Where in the world did you get this garbage?!? I have no idea why you think I feel the PDGA should not charge me for my membership. Not only is that far from the truth, its just flat out slanderous. Never have I ever posted anything along those lines nor will I. I appreciate your apology for this comment.

And 2ndly, I never want to make a living at this sport b/c the few months I was unemployed and only played tournaments for income was the worst side of me as a player I've ever experienced. Instead of every cut through or roll away just being something that happened, it them became something that might cost me a meal or something.

The only way I would ever travel the country and tour so to speak would be if I was rich beyond all my means and the money didn't matter.

And 3rdly, I pretty much lost all respect for you when I had an obvious case that I presented to the DC with multiple witnesses of a player exposing himself on the course with you on charge on the DC and NOTHING was done to this player. Your silly comments on here only make me laugh and add to my opinion of you.

Oh and....

I would say cheating matters if it is with the last place guy for all the obvious reasons and one more. That round the guy cheated is rated. Our ratings allow us to play in divisions and not allow us to play in others. Pretty important stuff if you ask me.

I did not hear about the cheating claim while at World�s. I can not believe it would happen at that level. But then again look at what that event means to the attendee�s. I�m lazy when it comes to keeping my personal score. even with Andrew at Worlds. I was thankful that Joe�s dad wrote down all the scores for the card in his caddy book. I also was thankful that Score keepers where provided for all the Jr cards. I had always wondered why that had not been done the past.

After getting about a half dozen PM's about this thread I think we can add a new SHOT to the disc golf vocabulary.....Forehanded Pencil Whip or Two Finger Eraser Slinger

:o

[quote (I'm just kidding M & M, don't get your knickers up).



Obviously didn't read or understand

i've gotten a couple as well kev. people don't mind naming names on a PM.

Of course, PMs can be publicly posted without permission based on the D-Board rules.

Not sure what the "PDGA getting out in front of this issue" actually means? Cheating is against the rules, scoring mis-adds get penalized, major cheaters get disciplined - in all cases with proof. The only ones failing in this process is the players not following the rules, other players not reporting the cheaters and those spreading unsubstantiated rumors.

Basically someone who cashed at that tournament got accused of cheating.

Heard about it this weekend from somone who saw it / in the group. Not heresay.

Not naming who, b/c it's pointless.


pm from MtL http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=24962&year=2008

Basically someone who cashed at that tournament got accused of cheating.

Heard about it this weekend from somone who saw it / in the group. Not heresay.

Not naming who, b/c it's pointless.


pm from MtL http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=24962&year=2008



Nice lie. I NEVER PMed you this info.

What I got to say to that is if you don't want your name splattered all over the D-board and trashed and ridiculed then don't cheat!

Now every time he's on my card I'm gonna have to bring it up like I do every other cheater....I basically tell the other guys in my group that we will have to keep the scorecard for 6 holes a piece because someone has a tough time getting his scorecard right. They usually get the point.

What I got to say to that is if you don't want your name splattered all over the D-board and trashed and ridiculed then don't cheat.



PREACH

i think we dont hear much about cheating on the disclipinary list is due to the mods being too busy looking for MISSPELLED CURSE WORDS!!! :confused:



You have two entirely different entities confused with one another.

The PDGA DISCiplinary Committee (http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary.php) and the PDGA DISCussion Board Disciplinary List (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=862816&Main=800073#Post8 62816) are completely separate and have entirely nothing to do with each other.

Of course, PMs can be publicly posted without permission based on the D-Board rules.

Not sure what the "PDGA getting out in front of this issue" actually means? Cheating is against the rules, scoring mis-adds get penalized, major cheaters get disciplined - in all cases with proof. The only ones failing in this process is the players not following the rules, other players not reporting the cheaters and those spreading unsubstantiated rumors.



Getting out front means a response from the PDGA or TD on the board stating ... this is what happend, this is what we did, this is what we are going to do going foward.

Getting out front means a response from the PDGA or TD on the board stating ... this is what happend, this is what we did, this is what we are going to do going foward.



I think John Chapman did with his post

I'm quite concerned about this discussion. There seems to be a faction that wants the official publishing of names & accusations of 804.05A violations, even if the accused is found to be not guilty & no sanction is imposed. While I strongly agree that those found by a TD (or other "official") to be guilty of cheating should be very harshly, very publicly punished, those not found guilty should not be publicly branded an "accused cheater". That type of policy opens a very dangerous door whereby a less-than-honorable player unfoundedly accuses an enemy of cheating just to begin a smear on the enemy's name, knowing that the accusation will be made public.

If a player sees what he perceives as cheating, he can call the "cheater" out on this MB to his heart's content, whether or not the accused is found guilty & sanctioned (or whether or not the alleged infraction is even called or reported), but asking the PDGA to do so, lacking a finding of guilt, is horrible policy, IMHO.

due process

Getting out front means a response from the PDGA or TD on the board stating ... this is what happend, this is what we did, this is what we are going to do going foward.


This is not the place to do it since TDs are not required to monitor this board, the PDGA has stated numerous times this will not be a place to respond to questions (the Contact page is for that) and the policies are already in place to handle the issues that arise.

Oh, crap. I agree with Chuck. I must be wrong. :(

me too.

chuck has never been and will never, and i mean never ever bee wrong. and if he is he will sweep it away with a dismissive statement.

I have learned that there are people who have reputations for cheating because they have done it NUMEROUS times. What a great thing to be known for! They will keep doing it if there isn't a consequence.

.......And if you've been playing for 5 years and you just got caught, my guess would be you've done it before.

I have posted my mistakes several times over the years. You just work hard to find the ones where I haven't recognized it yet... :cool:

Fundamentally, this thread is about money. If we had the money to pay for more professional officials that were paid and full video coverage, it could pretty much eliminate cheating. If players were highly paid by sponsors and we had the money for purses like ball golf, players would have more at stake to lose if they got caught. As it is, because some pros are living hand-to-mouth, money drives them to perhaps cheat or bend the rules more than they might otherwise. This and several other issues, perhaps most, can be distilled down to moeny.

Yet in the last 5 or so years, the only people who have really been punished for behaivor by these companies are Brad Hammock, Ron Russell and Cam Todd.

IMHO, the disc companies are a lot to blame for cheaters and poor sports for not doing much if anything about it.

IMHO, the disc companies are a lot to blame for cheaters and poor sports for not doing much if anything about it.



Why?

Check ur PM AO.

Edit - I'll just text you.

All we need is four scorecards per 4some at majors. Everyone keeps someone else's score. What is so hard about that? Im pretty sjur people will not only keep their assigned players, but their own as well.

If there is only one record, then the scores can still be entered incorrectly, if there are only two records, which is used if the two don't match and the card can't remember?

chuck,

a couple of things...
you have to admit that when a question is posed and the first response i got from you (i don't know exactly who you are but it would seem that you are "officially" involved with the infrastructure of the PDGA) is "what does it matter to you" is a little bit suspicious.

i was not implying anything. i was outright asking if the TD's knew about the incident.

there is no need to get riled up when an organization is publically asked for accountability. john chapman got on here and answered the question plainly and gave reasoning. i consider the matter settled unless some new information comes about.



I'm sorry but this does not seem to me to be the way to ask for accountability. Do you really think that you heard about some incident and if you hadn't asked about it in this forum that the TD would have never heard about it? Do you really think that the mode of operation to find out about incidents at our events should be to keep an ear pealed and then come here to ask if anyone has done anything? I'd hate to think that's the way we'd want to operate.

At the very least if I were interested in accountability and wanted to know about it I'd come here and ask the pundits if there is an accountability process and how incidents at our events get dealt with... at the very least.

If an official, TD or PDGA doesn't have that level of evidence, what do you expect them to do? Are we to track how many events each player is "suspected of cheating but never proven?"



Yes they should be tracking if a player is accused of cheating. Also obviously there is steam to this issue. The PDGA should get out in front. Set the record straight, instead of just not doing anything. Ask anyone in the public light, they'll tell you, you have to manage these types of situations instead of letting them manage you. Take Baseball and steroids. Poorly managed, didn't respond publically, end badly. Take Armstrong, he managed the situation, acted proactivly, ended well.

You are wrong chuck, there aren't any whic



Did you know that one cause of testicular cancer is the use of steroids? If you mean that Lance handled in well in that he got off, I'd have to agree with you.

i've gotten a couple as well kev. people don't mind naming names on a PM.



So apparently if you get a PM about a player cheating it must be real? Wow! What a measuring system we have here...

me too.



I agree with Chuck also!

It is amazing to me that there are all these cheaters being talked about and everyone knows they're doing it, but no one has ever filed a complaint? Cripes people is the TD or the PDGA supposed to be clairvoyant? Obviously, at the very least, they need to read the PMs flying about so they can find out who these cheaters are.

I'm betting that if KMack sees cheating it goes to the TD and the rest of the card (I suspect this because after reading his posts for seven years and watching him stand behind his word, I sort of believe him). Until the rest of us step up in the same fashion how can we criticize this organization when we aren't even holding these people accountable as per our rules?

When the most we're willing to do is come here and carp about how no one else is doing anything, perhaps what we really need to do is go look in the bathroom mirror. :o

The notion that John helped with accountability because he came here and answered questions about what happened at worlds is IMO wrong. What John did was stop an unfounded rumor mill about an incident that didn't happen as it was described here.

TDs have been notified and complaints have been filed, Lyle. You make very light of this thread. I dont know you, or at least I think I don't, but I would have imagined a competitive discgolfer would not take the integrity of this sport so lightly. This is the first thread to address such actions, and they need to be talked about openly.

If nothing else, perhaps this thread will encourage one or two more people to confront and/or report others if they see cheating in the future and know that the message board mavens will back them.

This situation was brought to the TD's attention, I know I saw it and listened to many talk about it and attempt to confront the disc golfer. This was also reported to the pdga, and other significant parties were notified. Anything else that needed to be done?

Reporting to TD first and if they don't deal with it then the PDGA Disciplinary Committee. However, they will also need to know who to contact as witnesses that might have relevant info.

It is amazing to me that there are all these cheaters being talked about and everyone knows they're doing it, but no one has ever filed a complaint?



<font color="blue"> [borderline personal attack deleted] </font> The answer is yes. There has been complaints filled to the PDGA for cheating.

I have personally spoken to a Disciplinary Committee member. From what I understand the 3rd person in the group says he doesn't know what happened or can't recall what happened and it is the word of the pencil whippers vs. the person that caught him cheating. The only thing left to do is confront the person accussed of pencil whipping about what had happened and if he says he didn't do it then from what I understood there can't be much of anything done other than be an outcast in the dg community.

I heard a rumor that someone was crossing dressing at worlds and played in the Female Pro division; is this true? I mean come on! Are we gonna stand for this!

No, that was at a tournament a few years ago. And I didn't cross-dress; I merely sent Kelsey in to sign me up as Emily Dickinson so there would be enough women to have a pro division.

It's funny how these stories get blown out of proportion. :D

All we need is four scorecards per 4some at majors. Everyone keeps someone else's score. What is so hard about that? Im pretty sjur people will not only keep their assigned players, but their own as well.



What he said...I started this thread a couple of years ago, same old song and dance! I am starting to think it happens more than people want to believe which is a major bummer! :(

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.ph...amp;#Post556592 (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&amp;%20Standards&amp;Number=55 6592&amp;Searchpage=5&amp;Main=556592&amp;Search=true&amp;#Post556 592)

I'm betting that if KMack sees cheating it goes to the TD and the rest of the card (I suspect this because after reading his posts for seven years and watching him stand behind his word, I sort of believe him). Until the rest of us step up in the same fashion how can we criticize this organization when we aren't even holding these people accountable as per our rules?



I'm not ready to goto the TD, I would rather go fight the guy... :DAs Feldberg found out in Minnesota around 02....we are actually good friends and we laugh about it now but I usually want to fight someone after cheating occurs, cuz they are STEALING everyones money, and I don't like people messing with my money by unfairly cheating....

Dave wasn't cheating and I over reacted, it was more of a bending of the rules (fancy footwork which is 100 times less as bad as pencil whipping) but I wanted to take him away from the course and give him some OKIE treatment for stealing people's money...my testosterone level isn't quite as high anymore, so it would now be like "Duuuuuuude what are you doing? your better than that." We're going to have to do something about this to make sure you wont do this anymore."

I haven't been afraid of a little confrontation :D My on course battles with Cam and the Ronald have been well publicized but Climo said it best after he won the Augusta Worlds that the tour was a lot friendlier and the comradeire on tour was much greater after those 2 weren't bringing everyone down.

good for you Kev. We need more people calling rule violations and more people not afraid to second stuff.

Did you know that one cause of testicular cancer is the use of steroids? If you mean that Lance handled in well in that he got off, I'd have to agree with you.





You had better get your facts straight before you go off half cocked.

Testicular cancer is on the rise just as breast cancer was in the 60's and 70's except for one major thing....testicular cancer happens in males primarily between the ages of 17-35. Much younger than breast cancer in females.

Breast cancer is now being defeated on many fronts, mainly because it is out in the open and females are learning about it at a much earlier age. They are now catching the disease before it has rapidly mutated in their system. On the other hand...

Males are not as educated about TC because of the same reasons females weren't back in the 70's. Education and early self detection. Males do not want to self examine themselves because it is not the manly thing to do, much the same line of thought for females a couple of decades ago.

As a Health teacher in the HS system one of the things that we teach now is BSE and TSE. Breast Self Examination and Testicle Self Examination. We are starting to win this war, but it has been a hard fought battle. 2 years ago we had a UT student come back and talk to my classes about it and tell that if he hadn't done a TSE, it could have been worse for him.

Lyle when you go off on something like this, you hit a nerve in a lot of people's heart and it is one comment that you cannot make in an unsensitive aspect.

If LA had been doing steroids one of the last places cancer forms because of Anabolic Steroid use is in the testiciles. And if he had been doing AS and it was found in the testicles and was ultimately proved to be the cause then it would have been from very long prolonged use. Anabolic Steroid use, oh never mind, you wouldn't understand.

ps..I have had to deal with cancer, both breast and testicular cancer, in my family and extended family.

DON'T GO THERE.

What kinda sucks is that its someone I get along with well thats been accused. I'd heard that it was Geoff before it was brought up on this thread. I tend to hold the card, on habit, for entire rounds anyway because a) my handwriting is clear b) I know I keep it in good shape and c) I don't trust people I don't know. Deciding to keep it for an entire round during a recent tourney just because I was on Geoff's card felt kinda crappy, but it was something that passed through my head before the round.

Regardless of whether or not he was guilty of it in reality... it was in my head and when I heard it in the first place it made me think of times, like the winter tourney where he came from behind by 8 strokes to catch me this past January. It really stinks to have to think of someone you respect as a golfer and a great person to travel with in that light.

Geoff's a great golfer and a solid person, I hope that this was all a misunderstanding and nothing like it ever comes up again.

That said, I do also agree with Kevin. Cheating needs to be addressed more aggressively. I hate it when it happens. I witnessed a guy from Ohio (18116) nudge a disc "onto" the painted OB line at a tourney in June and nobody would back me up. It [censored] me off royally. After he took a triple-circle 8 two holes later on an island hole one of the other guys on the card (that supposedly had not seen it happen) came up to me and informed me that that's why I shouldn't call people on stupid stuff like that, because they get theirs in the end. Seriously? Personally, don't believe one bit in karma. If you catch someone cheating don't let some imaginary force of nature do your dirty work for you.


-Chris.

This is a little off track but is it cheating if the start of a tournament is postponed up to 30-40 minutes to wait for a notorious golfer to arrive due to car problems? I realize it is unfortunate but highly unfair.

No, thats the TD being a milksop.

i think we dont hear much about cheating on the disclipinary list is due to the mods being too busy looking for MISSPELLED CURSE WORDS!!! :confused:



You have two entirely different entities confused with one another.

The PDGA DISCiplinary Committee (http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary.php) and the PDGA DISCussion Board Disciplinary List (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=862816&amp;Main=800073#Post8 62816) are completely separate and have entirely nothing to do with each other.



I knew you would have nothing else to do and would be right on it.. good work :eek: now what is the PDGA going to do about cheaters????? or just changed the subject again.. or he said she said game. "we heard you cheated but we will need 14 witnesses to come forward. What we only have 13 ok nothing we can do" must be a top player in the sport.. NICE

I witnessed a guy from Ohio (18116) nudge a disc "onto" the painted OB line at a tourney in June and nobody would back me up.



Not agreeing with this player's behavior at all, but I'm not sure what nudging a disc onto an OB line would do to change a call? If most of the disc was OB, the disc would still be OB. If most of the disc was IB, the disc would still be IB.

now what is the PDGA going to do about cheaters?????


My guess is that it's not fun to be on the Disciplinary Committee and they're likely looking for volunteer replacements. Lyle or MTL could probably comment on their needs. Anyone who questions how the calls are made should step up and volunteer and tell us what it's like to be in the hot seat for a while.

I witnessed a guy from Ohio (18116) nudge a disc "onto" the painted OB line at a tourney in June and nobody would back me up.



Not agreeing with this player's behavior at all, but I'm not sure what nudging a disc onto an OB line would do to change a call? If most of the disc was OB, the disc would still be OB. If most of the disc was IB, the disc would still be IB.


Sorry, he nudged it just OVER the OB line so the tip of it was across the painted line. In my brain I was thinking the OB line was IB just now, which was my mistake. I do distinctly remember him nudging it JUST enough so it was barely noticable and wound up called IB. The painted line was about an inch thick, if that. So it wasn't a hugely perceivable nudging. But just enough to get the tip in bounds. A few of the other guys on the card were busy in the woods looking for a disc, but me and one other guy both definitely saw it.

You still could have called it OB based on 803.09D. If the player touches the disc before the group can make a ruling it is considered OB.

You still could have called it OB based on 803.09D. If the player touches the disc before the group can make a ruling it is considered OB.


Thats the thing, nobody backed me up on it. The one guy that could have decided to let "karma" do its thing. The mythical energy force that lets people "get theirs." That was the point of my post, the guy that I was playing with... instead of acknowledging that he saw it decided to say "I told you so" after the other guy took an 8ppp a few holes later instead of calling him on it then and there.

No backing up is required for this call. Many times only one player in the group will be going ahead to confirm whether another player's disc is in or out while others get to their lie so they rely on that one player to confirm.

No backing up is required for this call. Many times only one player in the group will be going ahead to confirm whether another player's disc is in or out while others get to their lie so they rely on that one player to confirm.


I did not know this. I will remember it in the future.

It's better if it's confirmed but for some things, it's not practical. We're so used to the rule pertaining to seconding foot fault calls where it's actually called for in the rules to believe that all rules calls must be seconded or group decision.

Back to the original post:



I heard a story today about a player getting caught changing his score after his card had signed off but before he turned it in. The TD's were aware of the situation and made threats but ultimately did nothing. Is this true?




Make it mandatory that everyone has to turn cards in together. Everyone has to go at least near the parking lot anyway. Problem solved.

If I'm not mistaken, couldn't this be done at TD's discretion?

When players are driving to shotgun start positions, they don't all need to go back to HQ.

According to 804.03F, each player is responsible for turning in their scorecard. However, even if the TD provided individual scorecards, there's nothing to prevent a player from tampering with their card and there doesn't appear to be rule book support to allow TDs to require players to turn in the card(s) together, even though it might be a good idea.

I witnessed a guy from Ohio (18116) nudge a disc "onto" the painted OB line at a tourney in June and nobody would back me up.



Not agreeing with this player's behavior at all, but I'm not sure what nudging a disc onto an OB line would do to change a call? If most of the disc was OB, the disc would still be OB. If most of the disc was IB, the disc would still be IB.



Are you serious??? If any part of the disc is IN it is IN.

That's what I said. If most of the disc was on the OB side OF THE LINE and it was nudged further onto the OB line, the disc is still all OB since the line is OB.

No backing up is required for this call. Many times only one player in the group will be going ahead to confirm whether another player's disc is in or out while others get to their lie so they rely on that one player to confirm.



So the guy who already decided to try and cheat then says "I didn't touch my disc". Now you do need a SECOND or else the TD is going to give the player who cheated the benefit of the doubt. If someone has decided to use deception to cheat then they are probably ready to lie, cheat, and steal to conceal their dirty act. Its a character, or lack thereof, issue.

Perhaps we need a rule that imposes some sort of consequence when you obviously fail in your responsibility to officiate when you are a member of a group. When you play a tournament it is your obligation to pay attention and help enforce the rules. This is part of my issue with ipods, but that's a different thread.

Are you serious??? If any part of the disc is IN it is IN.



That is the rule. Again, it doesn't matter if the player nudged an OB disc onto the OB line, it would still be OB.

I witnessed a guy from Ohio (18116) nudge a disc "onto" the painted OB line at a tourney in June and nobody would back me up.



Not agreeing with this player's behavior at all, but I'm not sure what nudging a disc onto an OB line would do to change a call? If most of the disc was OB, the disc would still be OB. If most of the disc was IB, the disc would still be IB.



Chuck, are you serious? Am I reading this statement of your's wrong? A disc needs to be completely OB to be OB. Where most of the disc is is not important right?

Did you read the rest of the thread?

My thing is if someone is willing to pencil whip what else are they doing during the round to get an advantage??? Im a solid 975-985 rated golfer right now but if I wanted to move my foot about 2 ft total during a round and not stand behind my mini I could become a 1015 rated golfer in a HURRY!

I would never do that cuz I grew up playing ball golf and I was raised better than that; but Ill bet a whole lot of money that if someone is pencil whipping they are cheating in more ways than that and im sure alot of them are less noticable than an erased score with a lower one writin over top of it.

Ill tell you one thing. If I ever catch someone cheating it wont be pretty for them because I have NO problem making it known that I caught them and ill have NO problem telling EVERYONE about it.

Did you read the rest of the thread?



I thought I did. I generally agree with or can see your point of view, I just didn't understand your use of the word "most" instead of "any".

I guess a few of us misunderstood the statement.

I witnessed a guy from Ohio (18116) nudge a disc "onto" the painted OB line at a tourney in June and nobody would back me up.



Not agreeing with this player's behavior at all, but I'm not sure what nudging a disc onto an OB line would do to change a call? If most of the disc was OB, the disc would still be OB. If most of the disc was IB, the disc would still be IB.



Chuck, are you serious? Am I reading this statement of your's wrong? A disc needs to be completely OB to be OB. Where most of the disc is is not important right?



Chuck is correct, the original statement was not.

If a disc is on the OB side of the line and is nudged onto the OB line, it is still surrounded by OB and is still OB.

If a disc is on the IB side of the line and is nudged onto the OB line, it is still not surrounded by OB and is still IB.

His comment was that nudging the disc onto the OB line could not change the status of the disc. The disc would have to be nudged past the line, not onto the line, before the OB status would change.

years ago there was what we used to call a "tour mark" where you mark your disc to the side rather than the rear to get out from behind an object a little more. very hard to tell because it can happen quickly and people often aren't watching at that time even if they watch the feet after the mark. as kevin says, behavior on tour cleaned up a good bit once certain players were gone. when every missed shot is a cheeseburger not going in your tummy there is a lot of pressure to do such things.

years ago there was what we used to call a "tour mark" where you mark your disc to the side rather than the rear to get out from behind an object a little more. very hard to tell because it can happen quickly and people often aren't watching at that time even if they watch the feet after the mark. as kevin says, behavior on tour cleaned up a good bit once certain players were gone. when every missed shot is a cheeseburger not going in your tummy there is a lot of pressure to do such things.



Pressure should have nothing to do with it and if you dont have the money to be on tour maybe you should go get a job and stop trying to cheat honest players out of money that is rightfully thiers.

Just my 2 cents but hey im just an honest 975 rated player what the heck do I know :o:o:o

I should have said "if most or all of the disc was on the OB side of the line" (meaning that the rest of the disc was on the OB line). I can see the confusion.

i'm not arguing that the pressure is any justification for it- just saying it exists.

Who's the cheater? C'mon, name names!

negative.

I should have said "if most or all of the disc was on the OB side of the line" (meaning that the rest of the disc was on the OB line). I can see the confusion.



yeah i was hung up on that too Chuck... thanks for clarifying

(thought there was a re-write in the works and only you knew about it)

Yeah the initial mistake was mine. I meant to say he nudged it over the line and not onto the line. Although now that I think about it more and more, I think he only nudged it onto the line and the wrong call was made.

that would've been hilarious though.. guy tries cheating... thinks he gets away with it only to find out that he didnt know the rules and was still OB... woulda been classic!

I know a few people that carry a footwedge in their golf bags

Getting out front means a response from the PDGA or TD on the board stating ... this is what happend, this is what we did, this is what we are going to do going foward.


This is not the place to do it since TDs are not required to monitor this board, the PDGA has stated numerous times this will not be a place to respond to questions (the Contact page is for that) and the policies are already in place to handle the issues that arise.



WOW! Really?? That's why it took the PDGA 3 weeks to reply to my email about a very poorly ran B tier. My question was still not answered. Just an email saying "i'll get back to you." So if we don't make some topics a public question on a public forum maybe they'll never be answered.

Even if official channels are slow, it still doesn't make this the place to get your complaints resolved any more than placing an ad in the newspaper would. If you think about it from PDGA HQ perspective, your complaint isn't likely a high priority compared to other issues that can or need to be cated on right away since I presume the event was already over. Any action other than, "I'll get back to you," which let you know they read it, can't change anything until the TD or club reapplies to run an event next year and might be penalized or denied.

. . . took the PDGA 3 weeks to reply to my email about a very poorly ran B tier. My question was still not answered. Just an email saying "i'll get back to you."



Please post this grievance about the "poorly run B-Tier" on a new thread in one of the forums so the MessageBoard-members can all contribute to deciding what really happened.

Thank you

The notion that John helped with accountability because he came here and answered questions about what happened at worlds is IMO wrong. What John did was stop an unfounded rumor mill about an incident that didn't happen as it was described here.



Amen. Halting the rumor mill was exactly my intention.

Chap

I know a few people that carry a footwedge in their golf bags



Commonly refered to as the " Texas Wedge "

Commonly refered to as the " Texas Wedge"



I thought the Texas Wedge was using your putter from off of the green, and the Foot Wedge was improving your lie with your foot, also "Leather Wedge"

When players are driving to shotgun start positions, they don't all need to go back to HQ.

According to 804.03F, each player is responsible for turning in their scorecard. However, even if the TD provided individual scorecards, there's nothing to prevent a player from tampering with their card and there doesn't appear to be rule book support to allow TDs to require players to turn in the card(s) together, even though it might be a good idea.



We're considering asking to do this at Worlds next year:

Have two players bring the scorecard into tournament central after the round. The two players would have to initial the card in the presence of an official/course TD at tournament central, and that official would also initial the card. Seems a little bit drastic, but I imagine most players won't mind if it helps curb the pencil whipping.

I haven't run this by the Comp Committee yet, but we intend to.

Chap

Want to fix pencil whipping???

Step 1) Adopt the AM Nats scoring system.

Step 2) Done. :)

I heard of another incident of cheating. An Adv. Master had a weight taped to the inside rim of his disc to help with his turnover shots. He got stroked for using an illegal disc from what I heard. :o

obviously an Advanced Master. a real Master or Open player would have just called their sponsor and had 'em ship out some "heavy" ones :D

I'm guessing the weight was taped to the edge of the disc to ease the turnover not placed in the middle. A heavier weighted disc is usually more difficult to turn over anyway so I could see how a weight on the side might alter the flight. Pretty shady for someone to do that. I bet he was doing that for a while too. that's not something you bust out just for a tourney.

Want to end pencil whipping?

Mark it down in pen!
Any mark or alteration to a card must be explained and signed for by every member of the card.

I realize this seems overly simple but you can't change ink.

Want to fix pencil whipping???

Step 1) Adopt the AM Nats scoring system.

Step 2) Done. :)


not a fair to compare the two AM nats is smaller field with tee times and worlds is what 4 or 5 courses that all start at same time and up to what 4 or 5 cards maybe at one time what you want them to do stand in a line and wait????

not a fair to compare the two AM nats is smaller field with tee times and worlds is what 4 or 5 courses that all start at same time and up to what 4 or 5 cards maybe at one time what you want them to do stand in a line and wait????




Although I've never been to either event I have been to more than a couple of tourneys on multiple courses and the only time we didn't turn our cards in at the course we just played was when we had several hundred people camping like Texas Teams or the Hillclimber. Don't tell me that they expect you to drive to turn in your cards. That would be absurd. Someone please enlighten me.

We took cards on one course during the Waco Charity Open a couple of months ago... it does happen, but only when necessary.

Want to fix pencil whipping???

Step 1) Adopt the AM Nats scoring system.

Step 2) Done. :)


not a fair to compare the two AM nats is smaller field with tee times and worlds is what 4 or 5 courses that all start at same time and up to what 4 or 5 cards maybe at one time what you want them to do stand in a line and wait????



Doesn't matter the size field, etc. It's all about the system. It can be adapted to any format. Period.
I'll be happy to be the 'consultant'. That's what I do in my day job anyway. :D

Yes pens will help, and pencils with an eraser should get you slapped plus give you 4 strokes. The only way to stop scorecard "remixing" is score in pen... and make every player inital each players score before breaking from the group... how hard is that? I inital my score on my card ... whats wrong with the other folks doing it as well. After all they count it anyway.

mark,

stroked?!?!?! caught with a purposely modified illegal disc and all he got was a stroke?



I just rechecked with Super Dave again, and the weight (just one) was nearer the edge of the disc, which, when found, was upside down on the ground. The group that found it notified the TD and an official immediately and the guy with the modified disc was penalized one stroke and the disc was handed back to him, and he put it back in his bag to complete his round.

First hand report.

mark,

stroked?!?!?! caught with a purposely modified illegal disc and all he got was a stroke?



I just rechecked with Super Dave again, and the weight (just one) was nearer the edge of the disc, which, when found, was upside down on the ground. The group that found it notified the TD and an official immediately and the guy with the modified disc was penalized one stroke and the disc was handed back to him, and he put it back in his bag to complete his round.

First hand report.



wow! seems @ the very least he should've gotten 2 strokes if the TD and official and the people on the card knew the rules or had rule books with them. Its 2 strokes minimum just for carrying that disc ... for actually throwing it... sorry but your tourney is done.

I personally think that someone knowingly cheating like that should be booted from the event. If it was a 5k run and someone took a shortcut during the run you wouldn't penalize them by adding 2 minutes to their time... they're out!

From 802.01
C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.

D. Discs must be specifically approved by the director if questioned by another player or an official, but in no case shall the disc be approved if it violates any of the above specifications. Any specifically non-approved disc (per the director) shall be considered illegal, and the player shall be penalized in accordance with 802.01 E.

E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).

804.05a(3) is the one stating that a player 'shall' be DQ'd by the TD for section 3 which is ... "Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play."

Want to end pencil whipping?

Mark it down in pen!
Any mark or alteration to a card must be explained and signed for by every member of the card.

I realize this seems overly simple but you can't change ink.



So what happens when someone in your group misses a hole and puts the scores in the wrong column for 4-5 holes? Scoring volunteers don't want to have to decifer a card full of ink scratches. I like pencils with erasers b/c I like to keep things neat and it seems like every other tournament round I play someone makes a scoring mistake. Maybe a better idea is to write the final scores in ink once everyone has counted and agrees.

multiple scorecards.

. . . took the PDGA 3 weeks to reply to my email about a very poorly ran B tier. My question was still not answered. Just an email saying "i'll get back to you."



Please post this grievance about the "poorly run B-Tier" on a new thread in one of the forums so the MessageBoard-members can all contribute to deciding what really happened.

Thank you



Already did. Twice.

Yes pens will help, and pencils with an eraser should get you slapped plus give you 4 strokes. The only way to stop scorecard "remixing" is score in pen... and make every player inital each players score before breaking from the group... how hard is that? I inital my score on my card ... whats wrong with the other folks doing it as well. After all they count it anyway.



Sir Twisted I have to disagree with your 4 stroke comment....Pencil Whipping should be DQ like ball golf....if you can't add your scorecard correctly (better or worse) you should take the rest of the tournament off and practice adding, we are talking about 2nd or 3rd grade math ya know. If DQ was the consequence we probably would have more folks paying closer attention. See ya in ROCK HILL JOE!!!! Who is bringing Devan the Dude?

mark,

stroked?!?!?! caught with a purposely modified illegal disc and all he got was a stroke?



I just rechecked with Super Dave again, and the weight (just one) was nearer the edge of the disc, which, when found, was upside down on the ground. The group that found it notified the TD and an official immediately and the guy with the modified disc was penalized one stroke and the disc was handed back to him, and he put it back in his bag to complete his round.

First hand report.



1 stroke???? are you kidding me???? this is a serious offense, and it was a blatant attempt to break the rules...DQ would have been the only correct decision. 1 stroke penalties are for breaking the rules unintentionally, when you do something to try and circumvent the rules you should get kicked out of the tourney.

At least this time Coda can get his own room since he is 21 now. State law won't get hiim this time. ;)

Mike Treat is bringing Devan.

Leaves one at home and still gets to babysit. :D

1 stroke???? are you kidding me???? this is a serious offense, and it was a blatant attempt to break the rules...DQ would have been the only correct decision. 1 stroke penalties are for breaking the rules unintentionally, when you do something to try and circumvent the rules you should get kicked out of the tourney.



hear, hear. How about out of the association also.

There is something about the blatancy of this act that particularly disturbing, in my mind at least.

1 stroke???? are you kidding me???? this is a serious offense, and it was a blatant attempt to break the rules...DQ would have been the only correct decision. 1 stroke penalties are for breaking the rules unintentionally, when you do something to try and circumvent the rules you should get kicked out of the tourney.



Sir Twisted I have to disagree with your 4 stroke comment....Pencil Whipping should be DQ like ball golf....if you can't add your scorecard correctly (better or worse) you should take the rest of the tournament off and practice adding, we are talking about 2nd or 3rd grade math ya know. If DQ was the consequence we probably would have more folks paying closer attention.



I agree 100% with both posts.

Want to end pencil whipping?

Mark it down in pen!
Any mark or alteration to a card must be explained and signed for by every member of the card.

I realize this seems overly simple but you can't change ink.



So what happens when someone in your group misses a hole and puts the scores in the wrong column for 4-5 holes? Scoring volunteers don't want to have to decifer a card full of ink scratches. I like pencils with erasers b/c I like to keep things neat and it seems like every other tournament round I play someone makes a scoring mistake. Maybe a better idea is to write the final scores in ink once everyone has counted and agrees.



I agree that it would be messy if they tried to remark the cards but unless used for any sort of tie breaker, it shouldn't make a difference. If I start on hole 6 at a tourney and start writing scores on hole 1, as long as there are 18 correct scores on the card, no problem. Is there a rule that says I have to start marking scores on the hole I started on?

Want to fix pencil whipping???

Step 1) Adopt the AM Nats scoring system.

Step 2) Done. :)


not a fair to compare the two AM nats is smaller field with tee times and worlds is what 4 or 5 courses that all start at same time and up to what 4 or 5 cards maybe at one time what you want them to do stand in a line and wait????



Doesn't matter the size field, etc. It's all about the system. It can be adapted to any format. Period.
I'll be happy to be the 'consultant'. That's what I do in my day job anyway. :D



Explain the Am Nats scoring system, please.

Chap

If a round needs to be suspended (lightning, bomb scare, etc.), it is important to remember to which hole the group should proceed to continue. Having the score of the last completed hole marked in the correct box is vitally helpful.

Want to end pencil whipping?

Mark it down in pen!
Any mark or alteration to a card must be explained and signed for by every member of the card.

I realize this seems overly simple but you can't change ink.



So what happens when someone in your group misses a hole and puts the scores in the wrong column for 4-5 holes? Scoring volunteers don't want to have to decifer a card full of ink scratches. I like pencils with erasers b/c I like to keep things neat and it seems like every other tournament round I play someone makes a scoring mistake. Maybe a better idea is to write the final scores in ink once everyone has counted and agrees.



I agree that it would be messy if they tried to remark the cards but unless used for any sort of tie breaker, it shouldn't make a difference. If I start on hole 6 at a tourney and start writing scores on hole 1, as long as there are 18 correct scores on the card, no problem. Is there a rule that says I have to start marking scores on the hole I started on?



I don't have a rulebook on hand, but I'm sure that you have to keep score correctly. If you wrote scores for the wrong holes it would be impossible to look at the scores at the end of the round and mentally remember if they are correct.

Please post this grievance about the "poorly run B-Tier" on a new thread in one of the forums so the MessageBoard-members can all contribute to deciding what really happened.

Thank you



Already did. Twice.



Please post a link to the thread or at least tell which forum and thread title.

That hasn't been a problem with me. I emailed the PDGA something, and I got a prompt response. I was happy!

That hasn't been a problem with me. I emailed the PDGA something, and I got a prompt response. I was happy!



I've been a paying member since the year 2000 and from my experience the PDGA has never handled emails properly and Terry Calhoun used to make up some of the worst excuses ever.

Want to fix pencil whipping???

Step 1) Adopt the AM Nats scoring system.

Step 2) Done. :)


not a fair to compare the two AM nats is smaller field with tee times and worlds is what 4 or 5 courses that all start at same time and up to what 4 or 5 cards maybe at one time what you want them to do stand in a line and wait????



Doesn't matter the size field, etc. It's all about the system. It can be adapted to any format. Period.
I'll be happy to be the 'consultant'. That's what I do in my day job anyway. :D




For the Am Nats systems to work efficiently you would need tee times in order to avoid a card per player coming in all at once.

mark,

stroked?!?!?! caught with a purposely modified illegal disc and all he got was a stroke?



I just rechecked with Super Dave again, and the weight (just one) was nearer the edge of the disc, which, when found, was upside down on the ground. The group that found it notified the TD and an official immediately and the guy with the modified disc was penalized one stroke and the disc was handed back to him, and he put it back in his bag to complete his round.

First hand report.



wow! seems @ the very least he should've gotten 2 strokes if the TD and official and the people on the card knew the rules or had rule books with them. Its 2 strokes minimum just for carrying that disc ... for actually throwing it... sorry but your tourney is done.

I personally think that someone knowingly cheating like that should be booted from the event. If it was a 5k run and someone took a shortcut during the run you wouldn't penalize them by adding 2 minutes to their time... they're out!

From 802.01
C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.

D. Discs must be specifically approved by the director if questioned by another player or an official, but in no case shall the disc be approved if it violates any of the above specifications. Any specifically non-approved disc (per the director) shall be considered illegal, and the player shall be penalized in accordance with 802.01 E.

E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).

804.05a(3) is the one stating that a player 'shall' be DQ'd by the TD for section 3 which is ... "Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play."




first off i was in the group
2nd it was not blatent from where i was not even close
3rd it was not close to the rim much much closer to the center
4th there was no weight
it was a small piece of tape and velcro for what he said it was for a glow stick it was hole 4 at BEGG PARK and reason it was caught is because he went ob and the TD for the course picked it up for him and seen it
5th the very next pad he emptied his bag 2 do a check and none other were found if you think it was blatent i really would like 2 hear how you come up with such nonsense i dont like calling rules on anyone but if needed i will i always try to correct the issue before calling it blatent like other have and they were not there

Want to fix pencil whipping???

Step 1) Adopt the AM Nats scoring system.

Step 2) Done. :)


not a fair to compare the two AM nats is smaller field with tee times and worlds is what 4 or 5 courses that all start at same time and up to what 4 or 5 cards maybe at one time what you want them to do stand in a line and wait????



Doesn't matter the size field, etc. It's all about the system. It can be adapted to any format. Period.
I'll be happy to be the 'consultant'. That's what I do in my day job anyway. :D

and so you know i do agree with you and thanxs for that mini i got at worlds from you Am Nats every Am should be so lucky its the BEST EVENT for us ams

Want to fix pencil whipping???

Step 1) Adopt the AM Nats scoring system.

Step 2) Done. :)


not a fair to compare the two AM nats is smaller field with tee times and worlds is what 4 or 5 courses that all start at same time and up to what 4 or 5 cards maybe at one time what you want them to do stand in a line and wait????



Doesn't matter the size field, etc. It's all about the system. It can be adapted to any format. Period.
I'll be happy to be the 'consultant'. That's what I do in my day job anyway. :D




For the Am Nats systems to work efficiently you would need tee times in order to avoid a card per player coming in all at once.


Not really. Thats only if the TD insists on sitting there and babysitting the players as they check scores. The players can do this themselves if the event is a shotgun start.

CHAP: The AmNats system is every person gets a little booklet (would work fine with a slip of paper) with room for their own scores, and some spare lines. You get your scorecard, and at the start of the round you exchange it with the people on your card. So nobody keeps his own score. There is room for spare lines on the card so that you can keep track of your own score in addition to the person you're keeping score for.

At the end of the round you hand the scores back to the person that you're keeping score for and they check over everything and do the math.

Works pretty well.

Well, it was first termed as "a weight taped to the rim of his disc," which I view as a willful giving the finger to the rules. If, as you describe, it was merely a relic of taping a glow stick, I view it more as carelessness rather than blatant cheating, and apologize for characterizing otherwise. But I still view it as a violation deserving of two strokes. People who use glow sticks need to check them before using them in tourneys, or pay the price.

a piece of velcro and tape could be considered added weight and could also change the flight of the disc but I do agree that maybe the guy shouldn't have gotten kicked out then but he should've gotten @ least 2 strokes... dont see where 1 stroke makes sense in the rules and sounds like another case of rules getting made up on the course.
If the TD kicked this person out they still would've been within their rights depending on the interpretation of 'willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play'

My thing is if someone is willing to pencil whip what else are they doing during the round to get an advantage??? Im a solid 975-985 rated golfer right now but if I wanted to move my foot about 2 ft total during a round and not stand behind my mini I could become a 1015 rated golfer in a HURRY!



DING DING DING DING DING!!!!! This happened in CO. The person now has an "injury" that prevents him from playing. This was propagated through the proper channels (TD, state coord, DC...) and the player is not on any sort of official probation/suspension. However, there is much ridicule should said player show up at any CO event... and word spread to WY and MT pretty quickly.

I called a foot fault violation against myself recently, and the group decided to give me a courtesy warning, and allow my shot to stand.... Is this OK? In the amateur division, we need to know the rules, and educate the players that are unknowingly in violation before stroking them in my opinion. Unless it is an obvious attempt to circumvent the rules (like changing your score or moving your disc in bounds)

But if you are a pro, there is no warning, and you should be held accountable by the group, TD, and PDGA.

Calling yourself on a foot fault is bending the rules to your own benefit. I have never seen a great shot self called...only bad ones. Many people have heard my story about this...

I called a foot fault violation against myself recently, and the group decided to give me a courtesy warning, and allow my shot to stand.... Is this OK?


It's essentially a 'no call' since a courtesy warning doesn't apply here. If you didn't get the foot fault call seconded, it's as if it didn't happen.

Ok, not sure what you are trying to imply though......my shot in question was a tough shot out of trouble, and ended up under the basket. Thanks for your comment, sorry I don't follow your past posts.

cool, thanks for clarifying chuck........

post(s)?

I saw a top twenty pro call himself for a footfault(first available tree) turn around and ask his group to second it...Next hole, it happened again, except the disc flew 340 feet before the player said footfault.
I do like your honesty. Calling yourself when you throw a good shot is commendable. I would like to mention my brother. In the last A tier we played, he called himself for a penalty. He was deep in the rough(mountain golf) and threw a great out. We were clapping when we heard him say, "wait that wasn't my lie. This is someone else's disc." He took the strokes, found his disc(12 feet from that one) and played from the correct lie. He was over 200 feet into thick woods(we couldnt see him) and played with integrity. More than I can say for some people at the same event.

Well, it was first termed as "a weight taped to the rim of his disc," which I view as a willful giving the finger to the rules. If, as you describe, it was merely a relic of taping a glow stick, I view it more as carelessness rather than blatant cheating, and apologize for characterizing otherwise. But I still view it as a violation deserving of two strokes. People who use glow sticks need to check them before using them in tourneys, or pay the price.



Super Dave saw the disc from four feet away. The guy who found it declared it to be a weight on the underside of the disc found. It was white and was NOT in the center of the disc but clearly more towards the rim. That's what Super Dave saw, and told to me.

He took the strokes, found his disc (12 feet from that one) and played from the correct lie.


Was it a lost disc or one being actively played by another player? Lost disc would just have been one practice throw, not two shots. If it was an active lie, it's a 2-shot penalty and he continues play from the disc he threw and doesn't return to play from his lie (803.10).

Lost disc... Same exact color.

Ok, now I see where a cheater might use this to his or her advantage, thanks for your response. I just don't think that way, it's a shame some people do.

Lost disc... Same exact color.


OK, so it was one throw penalty for a practice throw, not two as you mentioned. That's all. Still, it was nice sportsmanship on his part.

Did you know that one cause of testicular cancer is the use of steroids? If you mean that Lance handled in well in that he got off, I'd have to agree with you.





You had better get your facts straight before you go off half cocked.

Testicular cancer is on the rise just as breast cancer was in the 60's and 70's except for one major thing....testicular cancer happens in males primarily between the ages of 17-35. Much younger than breast cancer in females.

Breast cancer is now being defeated on many fronts, mainly because it is out in the open and females are learning about it at a much earlier age. They are now catching the disease before it has rapidly mutated in their system. On the other hand...

Males are not as educated about TC because of the same reasons females weren't back in the 70's. Education and early self detection. Males do not want to self examine themselves because it is not the manly thing to do, much the same line of thought for females a couple of decades ago.

As a Health teacher in the HS system one of the things that we teach now is BSE and TSE. Breast Self Examination and Testicle Self Examination. We are starting to win this war, but it has been a hard fought battle. 2 years ago we had a UT student come back and talk to my classes about it and tell that if he hadn't done a TSE, it could have been worse for him.

Lyle when you go off on something like this, you hit a nerve in a lot of people's heart and it is one comment that you cannot make in an unsensitive aspect.

If LA had been doing steroids one of the last places cancer forms because of Anabolic Steroid use is in the testiciles. And if he had been doing AS and it was found in the testicles and was ultimately proved to be the cause then it would have been from very long prolonged use. Anabolic Steroid use, oh never mind, you wouldn't understand.

ps..I have had to deal with cancer, both breast and testicular cancer, in my family and extended family.

DON'T GO THERE.



Boy you go away for a few days and all kinds of fun stuff happens.

I'm sorry about your personal issues with cancer, if you're thinking that you're the only one who's ever had to deal with cancer, or loss of a loved one, I'd have to tell you that your wrong.

That said, I'd have to say there are compelling questions about Lance and drug use, whether or not testicular cancer is on the rise or not. You will notice that I pointed out that there is a correlation, and that I carefully did not say that he had, despite the evidence, cheated. If you're going to cite someone as an example, you should use a case that is clear. If it isn't and someone points that out to you, going to a personal example and crying foul, you've besmirched my family because we had cancer is bad form.

Stick to the issue at hand.

Lost disc... Same exact color.


OK, so it was one throw penalty for a practice throw, not two as you mentioned. That's all. Still, it was nice sportsmanship on his part.



Snapper Pierson did the same thing at Worlds at Cold Brook, and called himself on it as soon as he identified the disc. Threw into the cabbage on left side of Worlds #16 (not sure what regular number that is at CB), played from a disc that was same color as his, but not his. Found his about 3 feet away. The wrong disc turned out to be Eric Roadhouse's disc, who was playing in a different pool, so his disc was not live. One throw penalty for practice throw.

Chap

It is amazing to me that there are all these cheaters being talked about and everyone knows they're doing it, but no one has ever filed a complaint?



<font color="blue"> [borderline personal attack deleted] </font> The answer is yes. There has been complaints filled to the PDGA for cheating.



So what is the problem then? If someone was accused of cheating, and a report was filed, then why is there an issue? Why is that specific issue anyone else's problem than the people directly involved?

It seems to me the mistake made on this thread is that people are much less concerned about the issue as a whole than about individual cases. Rather than ask the question, do we have an adequate process in place for dealing with cheating, they gossip about individuals.

Now, if within the context of the sport, you examine cheating, I'd have to agree, we do not have an adequate solution in place to deal with the problem. That isn't because the PDGA doesn't care, or doesn't respond when issues are raised, rather it is the nature of the beast. Cheating, especially subtle cheating, is hard to detect in the first place. Even beyond that, getting players, with the exception of MTL of course, to call and report cheating is difficult. Even with my limited experience, I've seen dozens of cases where people just let it go and I've seen what happens to those who call cheating or rules breaking.

The reason this becomes an issue is both societal and due to how we enforce or rules. First, our society in general has become lax about cheating and lying. It is now common place, one simply has to look at our politics to understand this. Second, the way we call our rules violations is via player intervention. It's a whole lot harder to bully an official who has no need to remain focused and on game in a tournament, than a player.

Until these things change, the situation will persist. I can see no way, given our cost structure, that these things can change.

As for this thread, this thread was not started nor pursued as discussing the issue of cheating, rather as a hunting expedition for someone who cheated at Worlds. Even within it's context, I've seen almost no discussion of the issue, but rather of specific cases and those bad people who participated. Any time I see that direction, I'm going to comment. It is unfair and all to often based on the opinion of an individual as oppossed to what might have really happened. Robert, as mad as I make him knows this. He also served on the DC. It is easy to feel someone has broken a rule, it's a lot harder to know how much of that was intentional, how much was real, and how much is provable. In light of that, IMO we should ere on the safe side. Assume the person is innocent until guilty. Given this, one should say that my comments on Lance are inappropriate, and on that I'd have to agree, I was not careful enough.

I heard a rumor that someone was crossing dressing at worlds and played in the Female Pro division; is this true? I mean come on! Are we gonna stand for this!

No, that was at a tournament a few years ago. And I didn't cross-dress; I merely sent Kelsey in to sign me up as Emily Dickinson so there would be enough women to have a pro division.

It's funny how these stories get blown out of proportion. :D



While Bruce and I often disagree, you may rest assured that I fully appreciate both his intelligence and sense of humor... :D

Bruce, I'm thinkin' it would be way to hot to wear one of those Victorian dresses.

There has been complaints filled to the PDGA for cheating

I think everyone is wanting to know what the pdga is going to do about it. not that it has been filed.

Scarlet letter... If the PDGA can not/will not do the punishing, then the players(within the cheater's division) need to know.

If a reported potential infraction does not fulfill the requirements of proof and the PDGA can't punish the person, are you saying vigilante rumor mongering is justified? If an event that should be reported is not reported, should the non-reporter get to spread rumors that they saw something and didn't report it? I would submit that the non-reporter is as culpable for potential suspension as the one they potentially observed cheating, sort of like an accessory.

Lost disc... Same exact color.


Had the same thing happen at MidNats in 2006. Played from a disc same color as mine in the woods on Blueberry Hill 2, and afterward my disc was found out in the open near the edge of the woods. Played out the rest of the wrong lie as a provisional line of play and my own lie. Got a 4 on the provisional line and a 3 on my own line and ended up with a 4 anyway off of the 1 stroke penalty call, as made by Chappy.

I think Chappy and Jack Lowe spent about 15 minutes after the round discussing whether or not it should have been 1 or 2 strokes. :P

And now I always leave a mark on the top side of the disc too lol

I would submit that the non-reporter is as culpable for potential suspension as the one they potentially observed cheating, sort of like an accessory.


Unlike many honor systems, the PDGA's rule book has no provision for culpability for someone who observes a violation &amp; does not report it. Another artifact of our old friend, the Chuck Kennedy "rule" book.

I also feel that anybody who observes anybody doing anything (legal or illegal) has the right to report (or not report) it in any venue he/she sees fit, including the MB, whether or not there has been any adjudication concerning the matter. Readers will have to use their critical thinking skills to decide what conclusions to gather from the report. The org, on the other hand, has no business reporting anything but officially adjudicated business. Readers will have to use their critical thinking skills to decide what conclusions to gather from the PDGA's report, as well.

Another artifact of our old friend, the Chuck Kennedy "rule" book.


Veiled personal attact warranted?

Actually, calling the rules is requested by the PDGA rulebook in the last paragraph of the Introduction. It's especially important with player officiated play. Circumventing the rules 804.05A(3) can be seen as not calling a rule violation, which potentially impacts other players in the division who didn't get the opportunity to see the uncalled infraction.

Another artifact of our old friend, the Chuck Kennedy "rule" book.


Veiled personal attact warranted?


Nope. Merely pointing out the fact that many of the "rules" you pontificate about exist only in your own imagination (aka the Chuck Kennedy "rule" book), not in the PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf. Feel free to report me if you feel otherwise.


Actually, calling the rules is requested by the PDGA rulebook in the last paragraph of the Introduction.


Nope. It says, "In using these rules, players shall apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation in question." Could be read several ways (shocker), but to me means a player is to use the most pertinent rule <u>when</u> making a call, not that one is required (or even requested) <u>to</u> necessarily make a call.


Circumventing the rules 804.05A(3) can be seen as not calling a rule violation, which potentially impacts other players in the division who didn't get the opportunity to see the uncalled infraction.


Nope. Please show me any PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf (not Chuck Kennedy "rule" book) rule or published RC decision that states that. If you can't, good luck convincing anybody of the soundness of the lame argument that not calling a foot fault (for instance) is cheating.

It seems most people here prefer lynch mobs to due process...The level of paranoia towards authority in general and of our non-profit disc golf organization in particular on this board never ceases to amaze me.

People were ready to kick some dude out of DG for life for purposefully circumventing the rules...and then we find out from someone in his group it was simply a glow golf relic. This is hilarious in its irony, but pathetic really. Thank goodness it seems the rational people are in charge.

Hey discspeed. Your gonna have to read farther back than page 19.

At Worlds, Barsby was smoking a cig and Geoff Bennett walked by him and said "Smoker", without hesitation, Barsby responded back with "Cheater"...

You cheat, you get called out... Plain and simple...

There has been complaints filled to the PDGA for cheating

I think everyone is wanting to know what the pdga is going to do about it. not that it has been filed.



Not really. Some people feel they are entitled to know the details of any report or rumored report, and in all likelihood, sit with mouths watering at an opportunity to go all Monday-Morning-Quarterback on those who were responsible to act on the complaint. Not Everyone, mind you, but Some People.

At Worlds, Barsby was smoking a cig and Geoff Bennett walked by him and said "Smoker", without hesitation, Barsby responded back with "Cheater"...

You cheat, you get called out... Plain and simple...



classic

At Worlds, Barsby was smoking a cig and Geoff Bennett walked by him and said "Smoker", without hesitation, Barsby responded back with "Cheater"...

You cheat, you get called out... Plain and simple...




Barsby was proud of it too! :D

Pardon my ignorance and laziness to scroll through the entire thread, but what did Bennett do?

REPORTEDLY: caught altering his score on the card. I'm going to talk to him and get his side of things next chance I get, hopefully next weekend in Ypsilanti, MI.


-Chris.

What if scenario...

What if another player modified your score after thinking it was wrong even though it was right the 1st time, didnt consult you, and turned the card in, the TD sees the score was wrong, calls you up and penalizes you for it even though you did actually add it correct, but the other player goofed up and didnt consult you, and so you cant prove it. Who is at fault?

What if scenario...

What if another player modified your score after thinking it was wrong even though it was right the 1st time, didnt consult you, and turned the card in, the TD sees the score was wrong, calls you up and penalizes you for it even though you did actually add it correct, but the other player goofed up and didnt consult you, and so you cant prove it. Who is at fault?


804.03(e)

E. At the end of the round, each player shall sign his or her scorecard indicating that he or she attests to the accuracy of the score on each hole and the total score. If all the players of the group agree that a hole score was recorded in error, the score may be changed prior to the scorecard being turned in. Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept responsibility for the scores reported.

I understand the reason for having only 1 scorecard per group--saves trees. Though the hippie in me can appreciate the concept, I have to say from my own personal experience (in addition to what I've read here) that more than 1 scorecard should be used in each group.

On several different occasions I have watched someone piping up after the round with "Wait I thought I had you by two, not by one.....lemme see that scorecard again...." Hopefully, most can see how a second scorecard in the group helps eliminate pencil-whipping before it begins.

One thing I rarely see is players keeping score for the group on their own--at present, this is the best way to keep the pencil whippers honest...

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but players need to take more precautions with the "card turning in" process. Always take your card to the scorer's table, or accompany the person who does. This will eliminate all sorts of problems, accidental (like someone forgetting to turn it in), and deliberate (like the ones discussed above).

If you just give your card to someone else to turn in, and walk away, you are asking for trouble. Fortunately, trouble is rare, but why risk it when the precaution is so simple?

quote]What if scenario...

What if another player modified your score after thinking it was wrong even though it was right the 1st time, didn�t consult you, and turned the card in, the TD sees the score was wrong, calls you up and penalizes you for it even though you did actually add it correct, but the other player goofed up and didn�t consult you, and so you cant prove it. Who is at fault?

[/QUOTE]
I've wanted to tell this story since this thread was started, but wasn't sure about opening a can of worms I don't want to address. In a similar situation at the VPO in Arl. Tx. a few years ago, there was a score turned in by a cashing pro that had obviously been altered to a better score. Thing is the better score would not have changed the payout, but curiously enough, it would change the payout to penalize this player, #J, by flip flopping him with the next player, #C, down thus giving that player about $200 more. What was strange was #C was aware of the changed score somehow?? and came to me demanding heatedly that I penalize #J. Knowing #J was a top notch kind of guy, I wanted to speak to him first. When I found him, he had already heard of the problem and seeing me coming immediately said "I signed for ( the correct score)" and had no idea as to what had happened and shaking his head looking away said "do what you gotta do."
One possibility was that one of the score checking staff had mistakenly changed the score, which was doubtful but had to be considered. After much consideration I ruled that #J had not tried to cheat and I would allow the correct score to stand. This set #C and his girlfriend into a furor creating a huge scene with loud vulgar language, but I didn't change my ruling.
Later I found out that this traveling pro was suspected of having his friend turn in the cards for that group even though his friend had played on a different card and several of the other top pros had suspected that he was the one that altered the card to get #C the extra money possibly at his instructions.
I have no solution to suggest eliminating this happening, but I wanted to point out that a TD's job can get into some grey areas and criticism is not always fully informed and correct. A governing body should be allowed to do as they see fit.
I know that a lot of you would say that #K should have been stroked for not turning in his card, but get real, I am not aware of any tournament where everyone on every card went to HQ collectively to see that cards were turned in unaltered. We pride ourselves on our honesty and allowing one person to take the card(s) in is common practice. One or two bad apples should not make us treat everyone as untrustable cheats. Again, I have no blanket solution, but overreaction is not an answer.
Thnx

At Worlds, Barsby was smoking a cig and Geoff Bennett walked by him and said "Smoker", without hesitation, Barsby responded back with "Cheater"...

You cheat, you get called out... Plain and simple...


Thanks, I've been hoping the name would be named. I couldn't agree with this post any more.

I think we need to clone about 18 Skip Maxwell's and have one at each hole taking score. We'll clone him like they did in Star Wars with all those Boba Fett's.

i guess alot of this could be avoided if a player personally kept the group score in addition to the official card. if i was planning on pencil whipping and i knew someone else was writing down every score, i would have to find a new way to cheat. keep your own score and see that both cards match at the end. problem solved.

This set #C and his girlfriend into a furor creating a huge scene with loud vulgar language,



Do the Competition Manual provisions extend into the awards ceremony? When does the rulebook no longer pertain to a particular player?

If both expire for player #C upon the acceptance of his scorecard by staff then my point may be moot. But if either are still in effect then #C should be DQ'd for overt rudeness and possibly threatening staff, depending on what was said.

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present

And from the Competition Manual

3.3. Professional Misconduct
A. The PDGA adopts a strict policy of appropriate behavior
and comments to the media. Any conduct deemed to be
unprofessional is subject to disqualification by the
Tournament Director, and may also be subject to
suspension from PDGA events.
B. Players are expected to behave in a professional and
sportsmanlike manner while participating in a PDGA
sanctioned event. Actions that are in violation of this
conduct include but are not limited to:

� Overt rudeness
�
� Fighting or threatening other players, tournament staff,
or spectators
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

It certainly could be argued that the event is not over until after all awards are given out, thus at least one of these should apply. If either set of rules is still in effect and still working on scorecards would absolutely apply as the event not being completed, a loud vulgar scene in a public place is exactly what these rules are here to address.

I'm not positive but pretty sure the rules are done once your signed scorecard gets turned in. If not, then someone could pitch a fit and get half the cashing players dq'd for a post round brew.

The Competition Manual suggests that once you turn in your card you are done. If you read the sections on illegal substances or alcohol it says that you may not use them from the 2 Minute Warning to turning in your card.

The Competition Manual suggests that once you turn in your card you are done. If you read the sections on illegal substances or alcohol it says that you may not use them from the 2 Minute Warning to turning in your card.



So does that mean that alcohol &amp; controlled substances are PDGA approved at other times?

What made me post was recollection that at one time places like the event hotel or other public places associated with the event were included so that conduct of players would not be detrimental to the PDGA image. That certainly was not just while play was active. If that was still true, then a public outburst like described in Skip1's example might still be an offense. If the park staff or other park visitors are exposed to such unprofessional outbursts then that may affect future support of events.

If not, then someone could pitch a fit and get half the cashing players dq'd for a post round brew.



<font color="red"> That has been threatened several times in NC by a certain someone...but instead of the TD, it was the cops he wanted to call for drinking a beer in a park. </font>
<font color="green"> It is always GREEN on the HOMEGROWN tour!!! It's the safe-haven for fun in Disc Golf!!! </font>

Lost disc... Same exact color.


Had the same thing happen at MidNats in 2006. Played from a disc same color as mine in the woods on Blueberry Hill 2, and afterward my disc was found out in the open near the edge of the woods. Played out the rest of the wrong lie as a provisional line of play and my own lie. Got a 4 on the provisional line and a 3 on my own line and ended up with a 4 anyway off of the 1 stroke penalty call, as made by Chappy.

I think Chappy and Jack Lowe spent about 15 minutes after the round discussing whether or not it should have been 1 or 2 strokes. :P

And now I always leave a mark on the top side of the disc too lol



Technically, your group made the call. I was consulted as to my opinion, but I could not make the call as I was playing in your division.

Chap

Lost disc... Same exact color.


Had the same thing happen at MidNats in 2006. Played from a disc same color as mine in the woods on Blueberry Hill 2, and afterward my disc was found out in the open near the edge of the woods. Played out the rest of the wrong lie as a provisional line of play and my own lie. Got a 4 on the provisional line and a 3 on my own line and ended up with a 4 anyway off of the 1 stroke penalty call, as made by Chappy.

I think Chappy and Jack Lowe spent about 15 minutes after the round discussing whether or not it should have been 1 or 2 strokes. :P

And now I always leave a mark on the top side of the disc too lol



You got off easy. Your provisional line was the correct line of play. You should have had at least a 6 on that.
4 + 2 for playing from the wrong lie (803.10). The additional tosses from your own line should/could have been counted as practice throws, resulting in a total of 8 for the hole.

If not, then someone could pitch a fit and get half the cashing players dq'd for a post round brew.



<font color="red"> That has been threatened several times in NC by a certain someone...but instead of the TD, it was the cops he wanted to call for <u>DRINKING BEER IN A PARK</u> . </font>
<font color="green"> It is always GREEN on the HOMEGROWN tour!!! It's the safe-haven for fun in Disc Golf!!! </font>



Just for my info, is the underlined statement not against the law? If disc golfers keep drinking in parks when they know it is against the law, then they have absolutely no logical argument. If you don't want the cops called, don't break the law. How do we expect to live up to the word PROFESSIONAL in the abbreviation PDGA? If we follow the rules and do not break them, we will be rewarded. However, if we continue to break them, I assure you the consequences will really suck.

ken franks

At Worlds, Barsby was smoking a cig and Geoff Bennett walked by him and said "Smoker", without hesitation, Barsby responded back with "Cheater"...

You cheat, you get called out... Plain and simple...




So in light of this - please explain your side of the 2007 DGLO incident on the monster at Hudson Mills. Rather than call people out, I think it's more important to let them tell their side of the story. I witnessed the aftermath and was asked by the guys on your card how to handle it, but I never really got your side of it.

So please, share yours...

[/QUOTE]<font color="red"> That has been threatened several times in NC by a certain someone...but instead of the TD, it was the cops he wanted to call for drinking a beer in a park. </font>
<font color="green"> It is always GREEN on the HOMEGROWN tour!!! It's the safe-haven for fun in Disc Golf!!! </font>

[/QUOTE]

That may be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read on these message boards. Let me break down what has to transpire first before any of that may happen and what the consequences would be.

First a course has to be installed. We'll use Raleigh as an example. For a new course to be put into a city park it may take a number of years, 10+ sometimes, before a new course is approved. You're talking 1000's of volunteer hours dealing with P&amp;R and city council. Add onto that the all of the other hours of volunteer course prep, install &amp; maintinance. Plus it's the club that usually furnishes the baskets, pads, signs ad benches. How fast could it get yanked. All that it takes is for a figure of authority to catch someone breaking the law and everything is gone.

What about the event you attended? A well run event usually takes 6 to 12 months of intense volunteerism to put together. The TD and staff are funneling their own free time and usually their own money to make the event enjoyable. How fast can that disappear? All's it takes is one person to get caught breaking the law.

It only takes one over grown adolecent with poor judgement to ruin what may have taken 10 years to build. Is that fair? Not even close. So if there are individuals who are unable to control basic urges then maybe PDGA events are not for them. They would be better suited to playing Home grown events or playing casual rounds on private courses where thier indiscretions wouldn't affect 100's if not 1000's of others.

And he isn't the only person to threaten such action. I made that speach before the A-Tiers that I used to run. I had too much invested to let a few individuals ruin it for everyone. Think something bad can't happen? Ask Burlington. They lost a course for awhile because a few individuals were unable to throw away their beer cans after breaking the law by drinking in a public park.

Great point Rick! It can be hard to recognize everything that transpired or that's at stake, I've worked on many course, but not until I headed up my own major projects did I fully understand the sacrifices. Thank you for all you do!


ken franks

At Worlds, Barsby was smoking a cig and Geoff Bennett walked by him and said "Smoker", without hesitation, Barsby responded back with "Cheater"...

You cheat, you get called out... Plain and simple...




So in light of this - please explain your side of the 2007 DGLO incident on the monster at Hudson Mills. Rather than call people out, I think it's more important to let them tell their side of the story. I witnessed the aftermath and was asked by the guys on your card how to handle it, but I never really got your side of it.

So please, share yours...

I'm very interested in the above....

?

There has been complaints filled to the PDGA for cheating

I think everyone is wanting to know what the pdga is going to do about it. not that it has been filed.



Sorry for not getting back to this sooner Seewhere. I'm pretty confident that the PDGA investigates allegations of cheating and if there is adequate info they punish the alleged cheater. Don't assume that the PDGA can punish every allegation. They have to have good data and a reasonable doubt means they can't act. Does this mean someone might go free? Yes, unfortunately, but better that than we hang an innocent player.

BTW - I don't want to know what Geoff did, rather, I would like to know why, if it is so well known, no one on his card called him? :o

There has been complaints filled to the PDGA for cheating

I think everyone is wanting to know what the pdga is going to do about it. not that it has been filed.



Sorry for not getting back to this sooner Seewhere. I'm pretty confident that the PDGA investigates allegations of cheating and if there is adequate info they punish the alleged cheater. Don't assume that the PDGA can punish every allegation. They have to have good data and a reasonable doubt means they can't act. Does this mean someone might go free? Yes, unfortunately, but better that than we hang an innocent player.

BTW - I don't want to know what Geoff did, rather, I would like to know why, if it is so well known, no one on his card called him? :o



Lyle lobs the ball to the other side of the court

If not, then someone could pitch a fit and get half the cashing players dq'd for a post round brew.



<font color="red"> That has been threatened several times in NC by a certain someone...but instead of the TD, it was the cops he wanted to call for drinking a beer in a park. </font>
<font color="green"> It is always GREEN on the HOMEGROWN tour!!! It's the safe-haven for fun in Disc Golf!!! </font>



Maybe it is always "green" on the homegrown tour, and I hope you have fun with that, because I know they are fun events, but I enjoy my PDGA's as well. Maybe you don't, but it always seemed to me like when I talked to you at PDGA events and weekly doubles that you enjoyed playing them. Why you can't understand that a "certain someone" you mentioned is trying to look out for the good of the sport and continuance of having courses installed in the Raleigh area I'll never know. I thought we were adults here, and attacking somebody for having differences of personal opinion with you is a bit below that.

Let's just make all our courses <font color="green"> GREEN</font>, oh wait... then we won't have anything but private ones.

There has been complaints filled to the PDGA for cheating

I think everyone is wanting to know what the pdga is going to do about it. not that it has been filed.



Sorry for not getting back to this sooner Seewhere. I'm pretty confident that the PDGA investigates allegations of cheating and if there is adequate info they punish the alleged cheater. Don't assume that the PDGA can punish every allegation. They have to have good data and a reasonable doubt means they can't act. Does this mean someone might go free? Yes, unfortunately, but better that than we hang an innocent player.

BTW - I don't want to know what Geoff did, rather, I would like to know why, if it is so well known, no one on his card called him? :o



???

There has been complaints filled to the PDGA for cheating

I think everyone is wanting to know what the pdga is going to do about it. not that it has been filed.



Sorry for not getting back to this sooner Seewhere. I'm pretty confident that the PDGA investigates allegations of cheating and if there is adequate info they punish the alleged cheater. Don't assume that the PDGA can punish every allegation. They have to have good data and a reasonable doubt means they can't act. Does this mean someone might go free? Yes, unfortunately, but better that than we hang an innocent player.

BTW - I don't want to know what Geoff did, rather, I would like to know why, if it is so well known, no one on his card called him? :o



???



Someone DID call him out but since they were only playing in 3 somes and the 3rd guy on the card was a coward it was the person who called him outs word against his.

In my opinion the person who "didnt want to get involved" is just as much in the wrong as the cheater because they are allowing the cheater to cheat.

Just my 2 cents but what do I know :confused: :confused: :confused:

Intentional advancing of the fairway is also out of control, and makes breaking the rules much easier for the offending player. The players following the rules are hanging back behind the person who's obviously out, while this one player walks ahead into the bushes to find his disc - what is he doing while nobody is around. I've encountered it in my career most with players higher rated than me. And the argument is sometimes that they might be out, well speed of play around the basket is pretty much the same in the fairway - whatever flows best as agreed by the group.
It's also extremely distracting to the player that's out, because they have this rule breaker up in their view.

Unfortunately the guy that plays by the book is most affected by rule breaking, they know it's going on, if they call it they will surely face a confrontation (and will likely stand alone since the other players want to avoid confrontation), are loosing small percentage % points toward their own success - potentially. (and you know that someone is going to loose $ if he cashes - unless he blows out the field) Players that call violations can also feel like they face retribution politically for confronting a cheat that has enjoyed major success in our game. This kind of abuse of the system grows unchecked over time like a cancer. And the worst has to be when a TD doesn't stand up to the perp and allows them undeserved leniency, now you've really taken a hit to your confidence in making the calls.

It also doesn't help if you get burned by the silence of standing alone, your less likely to go up against the "bully complex", which does whatever it takes to win, instead of playing the course by the book. If everyone just played the course and let their skills be the deciding factor when the tournament is over, our game would be the winner!