If a reported potential infraction does not fulfill the requirements of proof and the PDGA can't punish the person, are you saying vigilante rumor mongering is justified? If an event that should be reported is not reported, should the non-reporter get to spread rumors that they saw something and didn't report it? I would submit that the non-reporter is as culpable for potential suspension as the one they potentially observed cheating, sort of like an accessory.



Can Charles Bronson be far behind??

I think Mullett might have just said it best when he said "What do I know?" EXACTLY! You don't know <u>ANYTHING</u> about what really happened except what you have heard or were told by someone other than the accused. Its all a bunch of rumours and hearsay taking up a ridiculous amount of time and space. I am stunned at how far it has gotten.

I was the TD for the GMOpen in VT where all of this alleged "cheating" supposedly took place. I'd like to set the record maybe a little straighter for anyone that is holding their opinion until some actual facts about what happened come out.

This situation was brought to my attention at the tournament in the worst possible way. The accuser had accused GB (or confronted him) all ready and given him back the card to "re-change" his score back to the correct score ( to a 4 from a 3 on the card). The scorers are handed a card w/the correct score on it....... w/the wrong score erased and the correct score written in .... and then the accuser went to the TD. But with what did he come to the TD? The player should have brought the card and his 2 playing partners to the TD as soon as he felt or discovered there was willful intent to cheat. Then we might have had a chance to see what really happened. The way it was handled our hands were completely tied before we could see anything clearly. We saw clearly that a 3 had been erased and a 4 had been inserted. But everybody knew that because GB changed it in front of his 2 playing partners under instruction from the accuser. So what exactly was I supposed to determine from that card? That underneath an erased 3 and written 4 there had been another previously-written and erased 4?? ...... I'm sorry but forensics is beyond the call of duty for A-Tier TD.

We questioned all 3 players involved in the incident twice. We spoke to the accused and the 3rd player a third time to try and determine if anything had been missed. The fact is that the 3rd player just didn't have a clear recollection of what he had written on the card. He may have written a 4. Or a 3. It was an insanely short putt that was missed by the accused to make it a bogie 4. The scorer just wasn't sure that he had written the correct score as he had been told (a 4). He might have written a 3 by mistake. So what if he did write a 3? Then GB is just a victim here of someone else's writing error and nothing more. And people are out to hang this guy??? If the 3rd guy that was actually involved isn't ready to step up because he's unsure.... why (and how) is anyone else so sure that something ill happened?

Lets be clear that there is NO responsibility on any player to remember past scores, written scores, scores from last round, the front 9, or anything else. Calling the 3rd guy a coward is about as stupid a comment as I've seen yet, clearly coming from someone that has absolutely NO personal knowledge of what happened that day. That player was in a bad situation and he did the best he could to remember what he wrote on the card. Since he couldn't w/any certainty then he was unwilling to call out a professional player on cheating. Forgive me but that sounds a little normal to me. I'm going to be DAM (yeah I know how to spell it) sure someone is cheating before I start making a big stink about it and this guy wasn't dam sure. Good for him! You say coward?? I say "sane person".

The fact that this whole thread was started because someone "heard" that this thing happened at Worlds should shine a light on the insanity of the "lynch-mob" feel that the whole mess has taken on and how far in the wrong direction it has traveled. Its all a bunch of hearsay and rumour. I think its real unfair to the parties involved to assume anything w/out the facts. We did all we could as TDs to uncover the facts from beneath the layer of rubberized lead that they lay. We were unable to determine the exact nature of the original writing on the card and we had no outside corroboration of any kind to take action upon this person. We had one guy's word against another guy. That was all we had and it wasn't enough to take any sort of action against anyone. The PDGA was notified but what could they do if WE couldn't even determine what happened?

So you want to be your own judge and jury then be my guest. We tried to be as fair and thorough as possible and we were unable to find a solid piece of any sort of evidence to move forward on. For that reason no further action was taken against any of the player and I thought (for some incredibly stupid reason) that would be the end of it. Who knew so many people had nothing better to do?



Chris Mayone, TD
2008 Green Mtn Open

Chris,
Yes, mullet was out of line. The third party was unsure and therefore should do exactly what he did. There is no evidence of cowardice in his decision. Let me say however, that this thread is not about you as TD and the decision you made. It is about the cheater and what he has done to his personal integrity within our sport. Do not forget one detail left out by said third party: "I may have written a 3 or 4, I cant remember...but one thing is sure, I never erased anything on that card."
Well, in front of more than a handful of players, GB admitted that a score had been erased and replaced with a lower score, but, but, but, it was not him. I know what I saw, and I did not blunder any call. I have been playing with Geoff for a while and consider(ed) him a friend and fellow golfer since I met him. This is not a burn at the stake thread...this is a take caution and be aware thread. Our sport is based on integrity, trust, and honesty.
I also want to say that the Green Mountain Open was an incredible discgolf experience on 2 great course. The friZZaks will be back next year.

Thanks for helping to clear things up as the TD. I know you see this as a public lynching but it can also serve as a way to help stop or correct rumor mill. rumors going unchecked can turn out a lot worse than the truth. As you mention evidence of this is from the title of the thread where rumors turned this incidence into people thinking it happened at worlds.

That being said I think that the fact that the person in question was willing to change the 3 back to a 4 when confronted was proof enough that some cheating went on. I don't think you couldn't done much beyond what you did as a TD though and also think its great that you reported it to the PDGA. I think if ever there is anything hokey or in question it should go on the TD report in hopes that someone @ the PDGA could log the info and start to add things up if this type of situation starts to follow one player but proof never seems to arise.

side note:

My first ever USDGC (i went to watch after playing only a few months) I saw a player cheat (standing w/ 1 foot in the road to get a better stance/angle) I was questioning more the fact on if I understood the rule correctly being so new at the time so I went to a flagger (i thought these guys were officials at the time) and questioned if that was legal or not. I was told... no its not and its not a big deal. I wasn't sure if it was a big deal and was only asking because I was trying to learn the rules... i came out of that day learning 2 things... that its ok if the players do little things to circumvent the rules but I better not be standing in the wrong spot on the course (line of sight 600+ feet away). It seemed that there was more concern with what the fans where doing wrong than the players.

Volunteering at a few USDGCs now I haven't personally seen anything shady since so i'm not downing this event by any means... just using an example of how not holding each other accountable and having our priorities off kilter can effect our image as a sport.

big difference between cheating and being ignorant to the rules.

1. Not knowing the rules/law is never an excuse for breaking them (break the law and see if the judge cares if you knew you were breaking the law or not)
2. Pros should be expected to know the rules
3. Pros playing in majors/big tourneys should be expected to know the rules
4. ANYONE playing @ a HUGE tourney like USDGC should most definitely be expected to know the rules
5. Someone 1000+ rated &amp; sponsored should probably know the rules
6. Assuming somehow you think 2-5 are bunk... why wouldn't calling this person out or others on the rules not be the right thing to do so they wouldn't be 'ignorant' to that rule the next time they try to break it?

1. Not knowing the rules/law is never an excuse for breaking them (break the law and see if the judge cares if you knew you were breaking the law or not)




Unless you live in CA where the laws are COPYRIGHTED!!!! :o

1. Not knowing the rules/law is never an excuse for breaking them (break the law and see if the judge cares if you knew you were breaking the law or not)
2. Pros should be expected to know the rules
3. Pros playing in majors/big tourneys should be expected to know the rules
4. ANYONE playing @ a HUGE tourney like USDGC should most definitely be expected to know the rules
5. Someone 1000+ rated &amp; sponsored should probably know the rules
6. Assuming somehow you think 2-5 are bunk... why wouldn't calling this person out or others on the rules not be the right thing to do so they wouldn't be 'ignorant' to that rule the next time they try to break it?



I agree, a player playing in that big of tournament should know the rules! However, my point was the player maybe did not know the rule. Cheating implies he knew the rule and intentionally broke it. All your point here does is prove he didn't know the rules. Clearly he should have, however, the element of cheating was not proved. Him simply playing open or playing in the USDGC does not mean he knew the rules, all it means is that he should have.

That�s way I dislike the rumor mill �Stack will understand what I mean� not pointed at any one on this thread. To cheating must have intent and knowledge. We all make mistakes. How many people have been accused of cheating without intent, there only crime was to make a mistake.

That�s way I dislike the rumor mill �Stack will understand what I mean� not pointed at any one on this thread. To cheating must have intent and knowledge. We all make mistakes. How many people have been accused of cheating without intent, there only crime was to make a mistake.



good point... and no Wyatt is not talking about anything involving me ;)

MTL... i see your point but don't really agree.

the question your coming to is ... 'is it cheating if they don't know they're breaking a rule'

I'm saying 'cheating = breaking a rule' and you believe it to be 'cheating = knowing the rules and breaking them'

to this I would say there could be different types/levels of cheating...
-knowing the rules and purposefully breaking them
-knowing the rules and accidental breaking them
-not knowing the rules and breaking them
(im sure there are other examples/variances)

all of these may be deemed as different on a social/personal scale (and how we might look at the individual) but by the law/rules should be the same since intent cannot be proven and ignorance is not an excuse.

So if someone putts and accidently falls forward from 25 feet they are a cheater or accidently runs up and foot faults then they are a cheater?

Then oops, I'm a cheater.

Rule book re-write:

Should now include Inadvertently cheating. :D

cheating is knowingly circumventing the rules to gain advantage Robert, let's not be melodramatic addressing a real issue.

cheating is knowingly circumventing the rules to gain advantage Robert, let's not be melodramatic addressing a real issue.



I'm 100% with you. My post was made in sarcasm.

"So if someone putts and accidently falls forward from 25 feet they are a cheater or accidently runs up and foot faults then they are a cheater?"

and if theres a mando and you don't play it because you didnt know it was there.

you didnt mean to but you cheated the course or broke the rules... sucks that you didnt know or didnt mean to but you did.

there is a huge difference between breaking a rule and cheating.

I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

No prob - didn't think we'd be off on this one.

We called a foot fault this weekend on a player who fell and caught himself, another player seconded it, the player re-putted and made the 2 without confrontation (newer player) - I was extremely happy with having an appropriate call followed by a 2nd, and a player that accepted and overcame it.

Not many open players will call the occasional miss which is good, we offer lenience on close (or benefit) - it's the flagrant or what I call shady "pushing the rules envelope" to gain advantage bs that bothers me. Players that try not to fault again are punished - they're focusing on their footwork as well as the shot (again not talking about follow thru motions that hit the mini or the occasional slight/miss to slight touch on a mini)

MTL its all semantics really... what do you do if you break a rule... your cheating the system right? on purpose or not

to alleviate confusion we'll call it 'breaking a rule' or being a 'rule breaker' since intent is hard to prove without admission.

to get back to the original word usage that started you on your rant... the individual in question was not necessarily 'cheating' then since I cannot prove his intent (although all of the signs point to him knowing the rule and circumventing it anyway) and i'll refer to this instance as the person being a 'rule breaker'

That�s way I dislike the rumor mill �Stack will understand what I mean� not pointed at any one on this thread. To cheating must have intent and knowledge. We all make mistakes. How many people have been accused of cheating without intent, there only crime was to make a mistake.



good point... and no Wyatt is not talking about anything involving me ;)

MTL... i see your point but don't really agree.

the question your coming to is ... 'is it cheating if they don't know they're breaking a rule'

I'm saying 'cheating = breaking a rule' and you believe it to be 'cheating = knowing the rules and breaking them'

to this I would say there could be different types/levels of cheating...
-knowing the rules and purposefully breaking them
-knowing the rules and accidental breaking them
-not knowing the rules and breaking them
(im sure there are other examples/variances)

all of these may be deemed as different on a social/personal scale (and how we might look at the individual) but by the law/rules should be the same since intent cannot be proven and ignorance is not an excuse.



what about:

not knowing the rules, intentionally trying to cheat, but failing to actually break a rule due to ignorance.

Example:

Bobby Cockleberries throws his tee shot into a cedar tree near the basket, it does not appear to drop out. He runs ahead of the group, finds his disc stuck well above 2m, and quickly puts out. Some players on the next tee pad see the whole thing but think nothing of it, as the TD clearly said 'No 2m rule' at the players meeting.
As the group approaches, Bobby mentions "it was below 2m, so I went ahead and putted".
Art Vandelay then says: 'we're not playing the 2m rule anyway'
Bobby replies: 'Oh, well it doesn't matter'

Has Bobby 'lucked out' and not broken any rules, or has he 'willfully tried to circumvent the rules' even though the rule broken was not in use?

I apologize for my earlier comment about the 3rd party being a coward. That was out of line and im truely am sorry. Lets not forget though that GB himself admitted to many players that indeed a 4 had been written then erased and replaced with a 3 but it wasnt him. Now lets look at the situation. Sjur calls GB out for whipping. So Sjur didnt erase a 4 and write a 3. 3rd party says he doesnt know which score he wrote down but knows for sure he didnt erase anything. GB admits that the 4 was erased and a 3 was written in. Do you guys in Vermont have mountain trolls that sneak into peopls bags and erase scores and write lower ones in for random people? Because if you dont then who in the heck erased the 4 and wrote in a 3?

Would anyone like to answer this question for me?

Many accused often experience 'temporary amnesia' while being interogated.

what about:

not knowing the rules, intentionally trying to cheat, but failing to actually break a rule due to ignorance.

Example:

Bobby Cockleberries throws his tee shot into a cedar tree near the basket, it does not appear to drop out. He runs ahead of the group, finds his disc stuck well above 2m, and quickly puts out. Some players on the next tee pad see the whole thing but think nothing of it, as the TD clearly said 'No 2m rule' at the players meeting.
As the group approaches, Bobby mentions "it was below 2m, so I went ahead and putted".
Art Vandelay then says: 'we're not playing the 2m rule anyway'
Bobby replies: 'Oh, well it doesn't matter'

Has Bobby 'lucked out' and not broken any rules, or has he 'willfully tried to circumvent the rules' even though the rule broken was not in use?



Warning for advancing the fairway (if he wasn't out) (example of advancing allowing a player to alter his play)

Otherwise just some "intent guilt" he'll have to live with - I doubt some of the cheat types even care about guilt...

wow - good point Halton! I've seen that deer in the headlights -dementia style- expression of wonderment from someone who has been caught.

wow - good point Halton! I've seen that deer in the headlights -dementia style- expression of wonderment from someone who has been caught.



Everyone in VT saw this look for the entire lunch.

"So if someone putts and accidently falls forward from 25 feet they are a cheater or accidently runs up and foot faults then they are a cheater?"

and if theres a mando and you don't play it because you didnt know it was there.<font color="red"> Some big names just throw around it then claim they didn't see it. Even if it is in neon colored tape 20ft off the tee.</font>

you didnt mean to but you cheated the course or broke the rules... sucks that you didnt know or didnt mean to but you did.

cheating is knowingly circumventing the rules to gain advantage Robert, let's not be melodramatic addressing a real issue.



I'm 100% with you. My post was made in sarcasm.




there is a huge difference between breaking a rule and cheating.

I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.



Robert, I find this little interaction quite ironic when one considers your "PDGA broke its own rules" blog post back in August. In that post, you accused the PDGA of "cheating" because of what you perceived as the PDGA breaking its own rules when it came to seeding of Open division players at Pro Worlds.

At that time, you equated "cheating" and "breaking the rules" as exactly the same thing, and now you are essentially saying how obvious the difference between the two are.

At that time, you equated "cheating" and "breaking the rules" as exactly the same thing



No I did not.

give a man enough rope and he'll hang himself

Are you saying the PDGA was ignorant of their own rules?

the quote (copied and pasted from my copy of the article)

"Cheating is loosely defined as intentionally breaking the rules and I hate a cheater."

That is the same point I've made the whole time.

Are you saying the PDGA was ignorant of their own rules?



nah... talking about MTL

give a man enough rope and he'll hang himself




Or he will use it at the USDGC, Well only if it yellow rope.


Sorry I couldn't help myself.

it's easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.

Cheaters are pumpkin eaters! :p

Lets not forget though that GB himself admitted to many players that indeed a 4 had been written then erased and replaced with a 3 but it wasnt him. Now lets look at the situation. Sjur calls GB out for whipping. So Sjur didnt erase a 4 and write a 3. 3rd party says he doesnt know which score he wrote down but knows for sure he didnt erase anything. GB admits that the 4 was erased and a 3 was written in. Do you guys in Vermont have mountain trolls that sneak into peopls bags and erase scores and write lower ones in for random people? Because if you dont then who in the heck erased the 4 and wrote in a 3?

Would anyone like to answer this question for me?



Mullett that is EXACTLY what we tried to discover when this was brought to my attention. But you seem to know more than I do about what happened before I got involved. Thats more "facts" than I got within the first few minutes of this whole thing happening. Probably because these "facts" are stretched to fit everyone's perception of the incident at this point. Lets be crystal clear about a few things. "GB himself" never said to me or admitted that a 4 had initially been written and erased and a 3 written in before the known change from a 3 to a 4. Had THAT been admitted (or evident on the card) then we may have had something to talk about. The burning question of the whole situation that was NEVER verified was this: What was originally written in that box for hole #6 before it was changed from a 3 to a 4 (the correct score). There is no rule against having the wrong score mistakenly written on your card for the entire round as long as it is not turned in that way (especially if you didn't write in the wrong score to begin with). What I saw amounted to an incorrect score being recorded and then corrected before the card was turned in. I am STARING at that exact card RIGHT NOW (I rescued it from NCalais tonight ...... never thought I would need to stare at it again) and I'll stand by what I have said all ready: It is clear that there was a 3 changed to a 4. Beyond this it would be 100% speculation unless your name is on that card.

So I will implore everyone one more time ...... please put this issue to bed. Each individual will treat GB differently based on what they have heard. I find that sad. I personally don't know Geoff at all but I found him to be forthcoming about everything I asked him to answer. So can we stop the speculation, fact-bulging, and hearsay-transferring regarding this issue. Its pretty clear the damage has been done. GB will live w/this for years to come and that can't be undone. It has been clearly established that it could have been handled better by all parties involved, myself included. Can we all learn something from this and move on? I beg of you ......... I find cheating deplorable. But I find it equally deplorable to collar someone w/a label like that w/out having some incontrovertible evidence to support such a claim. No such evidence is available in this case ....... you be the judge.

Chris Mayone, TD
2008 Green Mtn Open

Dude you just busted up a good Pinata Party! ;) :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Pi%C3%B1ata.jpg/350px-Pi%C3%B1ata.jpg

So what exactly are we supposed to tell these people...

http://data-allocine.blogomaniac.fr/mdata/2/2/2/Z20060119235129720753222/img/promo-angry-mob.jpg

I had another incident with a player that has a history of shady card keeping (waiting for his side of it...) This player checks his score, turns the cards over to me to hand in (I had a big lead and the win), as I walk toward the table I'm checking every hole for all players to make sure nothing funny was going on (since shady player had the cards last) It took a little while and I was standing very close to the TD, out of nowhere I hear wait I wrote a score down wrong, the player comes up and changes his finishing hole 18 to a 4 (he wrote a 3). Nothing illegal about it - If I wasn't paying attention, throwing high fives to my buddies would this player have yelled or just watched to make sure I don't check it and sit there quietly? Players in his hometown said he whips on league night (I gave him the benefit)(now 2 more incidents)

I smell smoke...I see smoke...yeah there's a fire!

Until somebody gets called and DQ'd this will still go on. Why not do it just like PGA. DQ and thats that :confused:

multiple scorecards in groups at my event from now on...

multiple scorecards in groups at my event from now on...



That doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Chap

multiple scorecards in groups at my event from now on...



That doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Chap



I dont see one way that it could hurt. It wont STOP it from happening. will it limit it, I think so.

I TD a tourney in a little over two weeks.... I am supplying two cards per group.

what about:

not knowing the rules, intentionally trying to cheat, but failing to actually break a rule due to ignorance.

Example:

Bobby Cockleberries throws his tee shot into a cedar tree near the basket, it does not appear to drop out. He runs ahead of the group, finds his disc stuck well above 2m, and quickly puts out. Some players on the next tee pad see the whole thing but think nothing of it, as the TD clearly said 'No 2m rule' at the players meeting.
As the group approaches, Bobby mentions "it was below 2m, so I went ahead and putted".
Art Vandelay then says: 'we're not playing the 2m rule anyway'
Bobby replies: 'Oh, well it doesn't matter'

Has Bobby 'lucked out' and not broken any rules, or has he 'willfully tried to circumvent the rules' even though the rule broken was not in use?


Clearly Bobby was already penalized when he was born to Mr. &amp; Mrs. Cockleberries.

I had another incident with a player that has a history of shady card keeping (waiting for his side of it...) This player checks his score, turns the cards over to me to hand in (I had a big lead and the win), as I walk toward the table I'm checking every hole for all players to make sure nothing funny was going on (since shady player had the cards last) It took a little while and I was standing very close to the TD, out of nowhere I hear wait I wrote a score down wrong, the player comes up and changes his finishing hole 18 to a 4 (he wrote a 3). Nothing illegal about it - If I wasn't paying attention, throwing high fives to my buddies would this player have yelled or just watched to make sure I don't check it and sit there quietly? Players in his hometown said he whips on league night (I gave him the benefit)(now 2 more incidents)

I smell smoke...I see smoke...yeah there's a fire!



With this case I think it could have been avoided if everyone says out there scores to the person writing it down in front of everyone including the person writing it down. That way if someone says a wrong score someone in the group should catch it. I have had this occur several times in my groups. This is assuming the [censored] didn't say one score out loud then write another.

Bottom line is that we all need to follow the rules and govern each other. Each one of us needs to lead by example and call players out during play or after. If we let one person get away with cheating then it hurts all of us. I've been fortunate to have only needed to call out one person for pencil whipping and I was lucky enough to have a witness who backed me up. I'm always quick to point out other infractions but in a coaching sense if it's a new player to the sport so they'll know about it in the future.

The only way the PDGA can continue to thrive is if we remain gentelman and be honest with our fellow disc golfers. I don't cheat because of karma. I beleive that what goes around comes around. Sooner or later it will catch up to the cheaters and they'll have to pay up for there poor judgement calls.

Yeah, and usually the person who pulls the maneuver has the card and doesn't call it out loud, as was the case here or writes it down different - I was going to catch it and it was going to get turned in and dealt with, good thing the player came clean.

If we have pride in our talents than these forgetful moments shouldn't make it past 2 minutes before we realize our mistake, I agonize over every stroke and it won't take long to get my score right, and if in haste I say the wrong score - I'm the first to catch it.

[With this case I think it could have been avoided if everyone says out there scores to the person writing it down in front of everyone including the person writing it down.



That is one of the main reasons this in the rule book.

The person with the card calls out the players name, the player says the score, the person with the card repeats the score.

I think this is the MOST broken rule in disc golf.

I am not sure if it is the most broken, but it irks me when the person with the card does not do it.

Agreed.

what about:

not knowing the rules, intentionally trying to cheat, but failing to actually break a rule due to ignorance.

Example:

Bobby Cockleberries throws his tee shot into a cedar tree near the basket, it does not appear to drop out. He runs ahead of the group, finds his disc stuck well above 2m, and quickly puts out. Some players on the next tee pad see the whole thing but think nothing of it, as the TD clearly said 'No 2m rule' at the players meeting.
As the group approaches, Bobby mentions "it was below 2m, so I went ahead and putted".
Art Vandelay then says: 'we're not playing the 2m rule anyway'
Bobby replies: 'Oh, well it doesn't matter'

Has Bobby 'lucked out' and not broken any rules, or has he 'willfully tried to circumvent the rules' even though the rule broken was not in use?


Clearly Bobby was already penalized when he was born to Mr. &amp; Mrs. Cockleberries.



Thank you flick and putt. That's funny.

I've see you have learned well young grasshopper, I've had some incidents in league play this year but I caught them very quickly. Pretty much just transposing scores.

Lets be crystal clear about a few things. "GB himself" never said to me or admitted that a 4 had initially been written and erased and a 3 written in before the known change from a 3 to a 4. Had THAT been admitted (or evident on the card) then we may have had something to talk about. The burning question of the whole situation that was NEVER verified was this: What was originally written in that box for hole #6 before it was changed from a 3 to a 4 (the correct score).



I just told you what was originally written in the score box for hole #6. A 4 was written then erased and a 3 written or this NEVER even would have been a problem. Sjur NEVER would have accused GB of ANYTHING cuz there would not have been anything to accuse him of. Thats what the entire controversy was over in the 1st place. After Sjur accused him GB grabbed the card erased the 3 and just traced the 4 that had been there originally, leaving you with no way to know that there was a 4 then a 3 then another 4. If you give me a scorecard I could do the exact same thing right now. And why would GB ever admit to you that there was a 4 there in the 1st place, that would be admitting that he did in fact pencil whip. And we all know that no one wants to admit that they cheated.

Just so im clear on one thing. Are you calling the people who told me that GB admitted that there was a 4 there in the 1st place liars?

TD's should simply give out two scorecards to each group. List the cards in the corner as A and B. Card A is the main scorecard, and will be the one turned in. Card B is the card with the scores re-recorded so they'll match up to what Card A says. Very simple solution if people are too lazy to actual repeat the scores after called when just completing a hole.

League in New Jersey...hmmm...I think I see the connection sensei!

I sugguested many years ago to the PDGA to have a policy about having a second player in the group observe the player writing the score. I know this doesn't specifically address the changing a scorecard after a round, but it does prevent someone writing a different score than they are saying out loud. A little easier than two scorecards. If you have two disc golfers coordinating cheating then were are in real trouble.

Which is why I'm against people who know each other playing in the same group if it can be avoided. One thing I hate is when friends agree on collusion to never call out rules against each other, but have no problem calling out rules on some stranger. If it can be avoided then TD's should always make sure to put stangers in groups.

SOTD,
With people traveling all over the country to play tournies, how do you expect friends to not play together at certain times? Also, how does a td account for this?

Hence "if it can be avoided." I'm primarily referring to local tournies though. But this past weekend at our tourney we looked at this thread and the situation involving Bennet and the alleged pencil whipping, and so what the TD did was give each individual his or her own scorecard, and then told us to pass that score to the person on the left. Now each player would write down the others score, and had the option of writing their own score down on the bottom of the card. I thought this was brilliant because we could all compare the scores to attest to their accuracy and we wouldnt have to worry who may have changed a score during the round. Needless to say, but I highly recommend this means of scoring.

it concerns me greatly if this is true. on the surface we have a clear cut case of cheating at the highest level of our tournament structure with apparently nothing being done.

if this is true, shouldn't it matter to all of us?



It matters to me as well. I fear cheating is a part of this game that shows the lack of integrity in our sport.

Pencil whippers should be tarred, feathered and banished from the game.

multiple scorecards in groups at my event from now on...



That doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Chap



IF done properly, yes it does. THey had them at the Masters and we all had the same scores and no issues. IF someone is unwilling to sit down with the rest of the group to make sure all cards are identical, then there's your red flag.

multiple scorecards in groups at my event from now on...



That doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Chap



IF done properly, yes it does. THey had them at the Masters and we all had the same scores and no issues. IF someone is unwilling to sit down with the rest of the group to make sure all cards are identical, then there's your red flag.



If done properly, a single scorecard fixes the problem. Of course, we're talking about things NOT being done properly here. People can still pencil whip with multiple scorecards, trust me.

Chap

multiple scorecards in groups at my event from now on...



That doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Chap



IF done properly, yes it does. THey had them at the Masters and we all had the same scores and no issues. IF someone is unwilling to sit down with the rest of the group to make sure all cards are identical, then there's your red flag.



If done properly, a single scorecard fixes the problem. Of course, we're talking about things NOT being done properly here. People can still pencil whip with multiple scorecards, trust me.

Chap



multiple scorecards scenarios I have seen have only recorded one player's score per card. I think the scenario he's talking about would be where everyone keeps everyone's score on four separate cards, then compare results at the end. This would require collusion to pencil whip. I've never seen that done, but it's not a terrible idea at all. It might seem a little like overkill, especially to people that don't cheat, but at least you have a little more security knowing that there's a better chance you aren't getting cheated.

[/QUOTE]

multiple scorecards scenarios I have seen have only recorded one player's score per card. I think the scenario he's talking about would be where everyone keeps everyone's score on four separate cards, then compare results at the end. This would require collusion to pencil whip. I've never seen that done, but it's not a terrible idea at all. It might seem a little like overkill, especially to people that don't cheat, but at least you have a little more security knowing that there's a better chance you aren't getting cheated.

[/QUOTE]

I think more often than prevent pencil whipping, it helps avoid honest mistakes. I made several entry mistakes during the Masters and they were caught and corrected instantly. Plus, one other guy made an addition error that was caught and corrected immediately. Mistakes stick out like a sore thumb.

AM Nats Scoring Method

Player A keeps score for Player B
Player B keeps score for Player C
Player C keeps score for Player D
Player D keeps score for Player A

AM Nats Scoring Method

Player A keeps score for Player B
Player B keeps score for Player C
Player C keeps score for Player D
Player D keeps score for Player A





yeah, then player A gets his scorecard back at end of said round, pencil whips his adjustments before turning it in. Problem not solved.....

Perhaps pencils should not be allowed. I have not read all of this ridiculous thread, has this even been considered? Then, if a mistake is corrected, it's obvious, and should be explained/initialed by correcting player. Explanations for scorecard discrepancies could be written on the back of the scorecard.

At Am Nats you're not allowed to touch your card until you get to the scoring area.

multiple scorecards in groups at my event from now on...



That doesn't necessarily fix the problem.

Chap



IF done properly, yes it does. They had them at the Masters and we all had the same scores and no issues. If someone is unwilling to sit down with the rest of the group to make sure all cards are identical, then there's your red flag.



If done properly, a single scorecard fixes the problem. Of course, we're talking about things NOT being done properly here. People can still pencil whip with multiple scorecards, trust me.

Chap



Worked REAL WELL at US Masters as each person's name was hilighted on their card. If player A&amp;C had 1 score and hilighted player had another...well it would be hard to explain. Also ALL cards had to be turned in together. I still checked just 1 card, then checked to be sure others had same scores for same people, it took a grand total of about 30 seconds per group longer.

Granted, it will need more time with shotgun starts than tee times, but there was only 1 instance of a card not matching(because there will always be those that still just look at their own score and not everyone elses like they do when there is only 1 card) - and it was because of the person not adding the 2 nines together correctly.(another peeve of mine - unless you play only 9 holes, who cares what the 9's add up to - as a TD I NEVER look at the 9 hole scores and 90% of the scoring errors I see are because of 9 hole scoring errors.)

I like the idea.

Keith

I do 9 hole scoring on my cards as an additional checking system. Add up the individual 9s. Add up the total based off that. Then add up bogeys and birdies and check off of that. And then add up total number and check off of that. If any of the three don't match up I start over.

am nats is full proof. when your taking someone elses score, theres a spot on their card for you to take your own score. like MDR said, you cant touch YOUR card until in scoring central. on top of that you can compare score and hole by hole scoring from the card you did yourself. if theres any questions, the scores you marked for yourself are on the backside of another players scorecard and can be reviewed. you would have to tag team cheat with someone else.

To prevent cheating, you just have to keep everybody's score on your personal card. Everybody in the group has to do it.

It's really sad that a person continually gets caught and has no conscience whatever. It's sad that in order to win, the person has to stoop that low and cheat. LOL

It amazes me!!!!!!!! LOL I'm talking about the people that have a reputation for doing it. People keep catching them. I guess that they don't care that they are viewed as....................I'll leave it at that.

At Am Nats you're not allowed to touch your card until you get to the scoring area.



**** cheatin' Am's... :p

Have you guys ever considered hiring a court reporter to keep score for every card. It will be quite expensive, but it will be accurate. I think those girls charge 30 an hour. An expensive investment, but it will keep a thread like this from happening.

why does it have to be a girl, stevan? Hm? Are you saying that a guy can't be a court reporter? what about a 6'6" guy with a bald head? can I... um, I mean "he"... not be a good court reporter, too? What's wrong with that, huh?

Marker
A "marker" is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor's score in stroke play. He may be a fellow-competitor. He is not a referee.

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round, the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

I have played for 10+ years, and I have never felt comfortable about the current scoring responsibilities. Not that I don't trust people, but because there is no redundency or backup if there is a mistake made.

People in general resist change, but a change in this instance is absolutely necessary, because the integrity of the sport is in question/danger, especially as payouts increase.

Thanks,

Josh #14490

Marker
A "marker" is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a competitor's score in stroke play. He may be a fellow-competitor. He is not a referee.

After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round, the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

I have played for 10+ years, and I have never felt comfortable about the current scoring responsibilities. Not that I don't trust people, but because there is no redundency or backup if there is a mistake made.

People in general resist change, but a change in this instance is absolutely necessary, because the integrity of the sport is in question/danger, especially as payouts increase.

Thanks,

Josh #14490



In the past year I've found at least 3 times when the score recorded me was incorrect. I keep my own score independant from the group as a backup. I wonder how many times others scores have been wrong?

Thats why you have multiple markers, and you always have the option to keep your own score.

The PDGA needs to update their scorekeeping policy, especially as the stakes get higher.

Thank

How can you PROVE cheating?

All the guy has to say is "I really thought I got an X on that hole and not a Y and I thought my group was cheating me out of a stroke, so I changed it. I realize my mistake was I should have notified my group instead of doing it the way I did, that was an error in judgment on my end."



Sounds like you've done this before? Cheater eh robert?

How can you PROVE cheating?

All the guy has to say is "I really thought I got an X on that hole and not a Y and I thought my group was cheating me out of a stroke, so I changed it. I realize my mistake was I should have notified my group instead of doing it the way I did, that was an error in judgment on my end."



Sounds like you've done this before? Cheater eh robert?



yup i believe it was last year tupelo?

Man, straight calling him out! I don't know if I would have taken it that far!

FYI... this is how USDGC is handling it (dont know if its like this every year... just what it says in this years caddy book)

Scorekeeping is an integral part of
play. Each member of the group
has a duty to the field for their
scores as well as the scores of their
groupmates. Caddies can keep score,
but only for the player for whom they
caddy. Group scorekeepers will not
be allowed as this defeats the cross
checking mechanism. And since
scorekeeping is such an integral part
of the competition, players who do
not follow the prescribed procedure
(including scoring, attesting, and
submission in the scoring area) will
be considered to have circumvented
the rules and subject to a 2-throw
penalty and possible disqualification.

what constitutes the "prescribed procedure"?

yeah...thats confusing.

what constitutes the "prescribed procedure"?


12. Scorekeeping:
a) After each hole, each member of the group records each player�s scores. At the end of the round, each player totals all the scores on his or her card. Players must sign their own card and attest, by signing, the official score of the other players on their respective cards. The signing and attesting must be done in the presence of the scoring staff so there is no time delay between the attestation on the cards and the submission to the staff.
b) If there is an error, only the player whose card is in error will receive the penalty prescribed in 804.03 G (2).

yeah...thats confusing.



seems to be the theme... (although I do agree w/ vegan ray that this one is pretty spelled out)... but theres no 2m rule... but wait... there is but only in 1 section of bushes/trees on 1 hole... and there will be gold and red rope this year.... and you can practice putt while waiting @ #4... but can you at the real backup on 5 or 888? can you walk across the road on 5 and throw practice drives and have your caddy or a 'fan' go get them so you can keep warm? can ju manage to throw OB on #1 again?... all kinds of unanswered questions ;)

ken franks

At Worlds, Barsby was smoking a cig and Geoff Bennett walked by him and said "Smoker", without hesitation, Barsby responded back with "Cheater"...

You cheat, you get called out... Plain and simple...




So in light of this - please explain your side of the 2007 DGLO incident on the monster at Hudson Mills. Rather than call people out, I think it's more important to let them tell their side of the story. I witnessed the aftermath and was asked by the guys on your card how to handle it, but I never really got your side of it.

So please, share yours...



Not that I have to ever answer to you Sprague, but since you asked, I'll respond for the crowd.

Plain and simple, when I was asked for my score, I uttered "8" on a hole I thought I took an 8 on. After the round, I was approached by my card and said they thought I took a 9. We traced back each shot and sure enough it was a 9.

I didn't have the scorecards at the time and made an honest mistake. I didn't erase a number and input another, thats a whole nother issue.

Your lucky if you have never thrown a number so high, you lose track of throws.

So because it was an honest mistake it's excusable? Tank please don't think I'm putting this on you by any means - I've never met you and don't have any reason to pick you out of the crowd. I'm just not a fan of mob mentality and think that mistakes can be made, and have been made plenty of times by many. I've jokingly said the wrong score after being disappointed at my shots and written that joking score down in pure accident, only because that's what I last said in my mind. Quickly caught and quickly fixed, but clearly a mistake. Maybe because I play in the advanced division right now it is more accepted that these types of "mistakes" can be made? It's easy to point fingers and place blame, even on yourself, but maybe it was just purely a mistake? This thread has gone stale...

And since I've incorrectly been labeled a cheater, I will tell what really happened in my case too.

I was playing a good round and came up to a short par 4 where the group was putting. I, playing well and wanting to stay hot, teed and crushed a roller and put it about 25 feet away - while the group was still putting. I had no idea I could reach the green and really wasn't thinking when I threw.

A few holes later, the group I threw into approached me and asked why I did that. I immediately said "guys, I'm sorry, I have no idea why I did that, stupid decision" and they were like "yeah, you should know better" and I agreed and apologized again.

About 10 holes later, the same people who accused me of cheating were talking and being idiots when I was teeing (there was a double tee area) and I said something to the effect of "we are live" and they wouldn't stop talking and disrupting me so I waited. I turned around in disgust and said something like "I wish you guys would just shut up" not knowing one of the guys in their group was teeing and they warned me and it was properly seconded. I didn't agree with the warning since it was hypocritical in nature (being they warned me for basically doing what they were doing), but accepted it and noted it on the scorecard.

AFTER the tournament was over (mind you I finished 2nd and lost by 1), people came up with the idea that it was my second warning of the round b/c of what happened earlier even though no warning was ever given in the first example.

They didn't even approach the TD at the tournament, just got on the discussion board and complained about it. Not only was the first instance never brought to the TD, it was never noted on the scorecard. To make things even more silly, one of the guys who came up with this crap was the guy in my group keeping score which just makes me laugh.

The whole thing was just a story made up by people who have no lives and get off and thinking they get to me meanwhile they are busy cheating by knowingly breaking the rules by consuming alcohol during sanctioned rounds and smoking illegal drugs during rounds.

I normally don't respond to trolls like this, but I will NOT be called a cheater and keep my mouth shut. I've done too much for this game to have my good name ruined by some idiots who get off and doing stuff like this.

To tell you the truth, I have made mistakes on cards a few time. Some people on here like to blow it out of proportion about these things because they have superiority issues or something.

How do you know what's an honest mistake and what's cheating?

I am also a huge supporter of turning in the wrong card and you are disqualified.

PS. Sprague both incidents you are referring, I didn't have the card either time. Might want to go bac and rethink the story in your head.

And if you want to start a pi$$ing match/making aqusations/airing dirty laundry, you will surely lose that battle.

I normally don't respond to trolls like this, but I will NOT be called a cheater and keep my mouth shut. I've done too much for this game to have my good name ruined by some idiots who get off and doing stuff like this.



Couldn't have said it better MTLness!

Ask anyone in the DG community about who I am as a person, I am an open book.

Dunno if its jealously or what, but it seems to be the same person attacking me...

How can you PROVE cheating?

All the guy has to say is "I really thought I got an X on that hole and not a Y and I thought my group was cheating me out of a stroke, so I changed it. I realize my mistake was I should have notified my group instead of doing it the way I did, that was an error in judgment on my end."



Sounds like you've done this before? Cheater eh robert?



yup i believe it was last year tupelo?


*click click*
*back back*
Who're you again? Seriously why do guys see the need to start [censored]? MtL says a lot of things that are controversial (and in terms of his argument about ratings, things I don't agree with at all)... but really he doesn't seem to be the problem around here. 90% of all flame wars concerning MtL are started by random people that want to join the mob and flame him, like yourself. People with no other reason to post other than to fan the flames.

I think half of MtL's reputation on these forums is caused by the mere fact that he's a constant target of abuse by you guys. As an independent outsider who has never met the guy, I can honestly say I'd believe his side of any story long before I would any of you.

How can you PROVE cheating?

All the guy has to say is "I really thought I got an X on that hole and not a Y and I thought my group was cheating me out of a stroke, so I changed it. I realize my mistake was I should have notified my group instead of doing it the way I did, that was an error in judgment on my end."



Sounds like you've done this before? Cheater eh robert?



yup i believe it was last year tupelo?


*click click*
*back back*
Who're you again? Seriously why do guys see the need to start [censored]? MtL says a lot of things that are controversial (and in terms of his argument about ratings, things I don't agree with at all)... but really he doesn't seem to be the problem around here. 90% of all flame wars concerning MtL are started by random people that want to join the mob and flame him, like yourself. People with no other reason to post other than to fan the flames.

I think half of MtL's reputation on these forums is caused by the mere fact that he's a constant target of abuse by you guys. As an independent outsider who has never met the guy, I can honestly say I'd believe his side of any story long before I would any of you.




I call them like I see them.
CHEATERS!!!

How can you PROVE cheating?

All the guy has to say is "I really thought I got an X on that hole and not a Y and I thought my group was cheating me out of a stroke, so I changed it. I realize my mistake was I should have notified my group instead of doing it the way I did, that was an error in judgment on my end."



Sounds like you've done this before? Cheater eh robert?



yup i believe it was last year tupelo?


*click click*
*back back*
Who're you again? Seriously why do guys see the need to start [censored]? MtL says a lot of things that are controversial (and in terms of his argument about ratings, things I don't agree with at all)... but really he doesn't seem to be the problem around here. 90% of all flame wars concerning MtL are started by random people that want to join the mob and flame him, like yourself. People with no other reason to post other than to fan the flames.

I think half of MtL's reputation on these forums is caused by the mere fact that he's a constant target of abuse by you guys. As an independent outsider who has never met the guy, I can honestly say I'd believe his side of any story long before I would any of you.




I call them like I see them.
CHEATERS!!!


Good, I call it like I see it.
FLAMER. Stop starting random arguments on the forums for no reason. I'm so sick of people like you starting these stupid little flame-wars for no reason other than to get a pat on the back from the other little people that start baseless flame-wars on the forums.

Agreed, I've met and played with MtL a few times and of course he can sometimes seem a bit abrasive and crude but in reality most of the stories about him seem to be blown way out of proportion. He has gotten alot of flack from alot of people and on a daily basis has to defend himself. Roberts grown alot since I've first met him and from what I hear does alot for the sport and runs a great tourney. Leave all the personal stuff aside, because Robert is an asset to the sport in my opinion!!

OMG please quit stroking his small limp little ego :eek: :D He smells funny and his momma dresses him funny plus my fantasy team OWNED him this weekend.

ken franks

At Worlds, Barsby was smoking a cig and Geoff Bennett walked by him and said "Smoker", without hesitation, Barsby responded back with "Cheater"...

You cheat, you get called out... Plain and simple...




So in light of this - please explain your side of the 2007 DGLO incident on the monster at Hudson Mills. Rather than call people out, I think it's more important to let them tell their side of the story. I witnessed the aftermath and was asked by the guys on your card how to handle it, but I never really got your side of it.

So please, share yours...



Not that I have to ever answer to you Sprague, but since you asked, I'll respond for the crowd.

Plain and simple, when I was asked for my score, I uttered "8" on a hole I thought I took an 8 on. After the round, I was approached by my card and said they thought I took a 9. We traced back each shot and sure enough it was a 9.

I didn't have the scorecards at the time and made an honest mistake. I didn't erase a number and input another, thats a whole nother issue.

Your lucky if you have never thrown a number so high, you lose track of throws.



Let me share my version. Your card approached Yeti and I to ask our advice on handling the issue. They said you wrote yourself down for a 6 when you took a 7. I said is he here, no, then turn it in. Yeti was more forgiving and suggested we find you. So, I went and found you and filled you in on what was going on. When you went back to your group they asked what you took, and you counted out the correct score, and then asked "why what did I write down" (I made sure they told me what your response was verbatim so I could judge for myself) and I wrote down my accounts of it to be clear. After I told you what the situation was you went back and acted as though you didn't know what was going on (even though I gave you all the details)

AND YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO ANSWER TO ME, and ironically Geoff Bennett and Robert McIntee the people you tied! If you take my money or my friends money by shaving strokes, whether with a pencil or because you can't count - you have the PDGA to answer to - and I'm a member!

I've never made it more than a few seconds before I caught a mistake like that - especially not turn the card in and walk away. I count multiple times to make sure it's right, it's how a pro does it. As a matter of fact, I have trouble not going over every shot wondering if I couldn't have done something different.

I just can't believe you had the audacity to post Barsby's comments, and pile on Bennett when he's getting kicked from all sides already (whether he's guilty or not - you were not there) There is no difference between trying to pass off a bad score and/or changing/altering a score card - one is just easier to pass off as a mistake, you are responsible for your card being accurate! PERIOD.

To tell you the truth, I have made mistakes on cards a few time. Some people on here like to blow it out of proportion about these things because they have superiority issues or something.

How do you know what's an honest mistake and what's cheating?

I am also a huge supporter of turning in the wrong card and you are disqualified.

PS. Sprague both incidents you are referring, I didn't have the card either time. Might want to go bac and rethink the story in your head.

And if you want to start a pi$$ing match/making aqusations/airing dirty laundry, you will surely lose that battle.



In Omaha you said "wait I wrote down a wrong score" whether you said it or wrote it - you claimed you wrote it.

And at DGLO your entire card said you wrote it down wrong - I trust them...

And leave my business out of this, what goes on between people is their business, you should stay out of it unless it involves you...especially when you don't know the facts.

Stop making mistakes, use you skillz to check your scores, mistake or not - you're responsible!

ROBERT MtL LEONARD
got warned 2 TIMES in 1 round
circumvented the rules by not taking a stroke
to me, that equals CHEATING!!!

i guess when you do SO much for this sport you can get away with CHEATING?

Such a shame to hear about all this cheating in the open division.
I have been moving up the ranks and have witnessed cheating at all
levels so far. From moving branches, saying the wrong score, writing down the wrong score. Yikes this is only disc golf.

I wish more for our sport. We are better than this. 1 stroke is tons in this game. Especially if you take 1 stroke per round in a 4 round tournament. That's four birdies just to stay even with a cheater.

All the hard work the honest people do by practicing and accepting their bad lie is all in vein with cheaters around.

http://www.loopsandpluto.com/catalog/images/hugitout_thumb.gif

:D

Isn't this like the pot calling the kettle black? Stop breaking the rules yourself before you incorrectly accuse someone else of breaking the rules.

This is a quote from last years Tupelo Bay thread:

"You are beating a dead horse (a rather large dead horse).

It has been clearly stated:

The warnings were in different rounds and only one was noted properly on the scorecard.

If you are going to target someone for breaking the rules after the tournament is over try making sure you know both the rules and the facts."

You might want to have your facts straight before you attempt to argue with me. As I have said many times "If you argue with me it just means you are wrong".

The bottom line is that the group only noted one warning and never brought it up to me (the TD).

Kirk

breaking rules on a message board and breaking rules on the course are NOT in the same boat.
but whatever,
he got warned, he never marked it on the card
THAT IS A FACT!!!

and BoB, cutt said "shoot style" anytime

I am not talking about message board rules. You know as well as I do, and everyone else that knows you, that you have broken PDGA rules at every event you have ever played. Can you honestly give me one example of a PDGA event you have played that you did not break the rules?

Fred, it is amazing that you seem to know so much about an event that you did not attend. It certainly sounds like someone is posting under your account. Please prove me wrong.

Where does it say in the rulebook that a warning must be marked on the scorecard? I don't recall seeing that?

Thanks guys, I'll make sure never to go play in NC. Wow

Where does it say in the rulebook that a warning must be marked on the scorecard? I don't recall seeing that?



804.03 D. Warnings and penalty throws given
to a player for rules infractions shall be
noted on the scorecard.

Thanks guys, I'll make sure never to go play in NC. Wow



NC is a great place to play golf. Most of the trouble makers that post on this board from NC don't play many if at all any PDGA events.

Please come join us! We would love to have you!

Thanks. Seems like that should be mentioned earlier in the rules when the infractions occur.

Wow Chuck couldn't find that one, I'm starting to doubt him now

I looked where I thought it should be. Just because I can sometimes explain the rules doesn't mean I don't think they have areas for improvement.

I have to correct 1 or 2 people every tournament I play. people either are just plain stupid and dont know how to count or they act like they made a mistake. it is not very hard to learn to count... it seems the hard part is writing it down correctly..

Brandon,

The tournament that is being talked about was actually in SC just outside of Myrtle Beach. It just happens that the 2 players that are at odds with each other are from NC.

Kirk

I was in the group at Tupelo last year. Matter of fact I was lining up a 25' putt when MTL's roller came through our area. We did say something to him, but we never officially warned him. We did warn him later on in the round because he was being an arse. He blew off the earlier incident as if it wasn't a big deal and [censored] off a couple of people in our group. So when the talking kept on he was warned. It was my first time meeting him, I had heard he was a huge richardhead. Needless to say I still don't know him and won't judge based on my only experience with him. He was only warned one time and should not have been given any strokes for multiple violations.

As for cheaters. I think we all have been faced with a pencil whipper or rule bender in our time as tournament players. If you don't step up and make an example out of the people breaking the rules they will keep on doing it. I've been faced with a pencil whipper twice since I've been playing. The first time our entire group did nothing about it. The second time the entire group did something about it and the player was disqualified from the tournament. I don't think it was ever reported to the PDGA, but I think justice was served. I've played with him since then and cheating was not an issue. I have seen this person that we didn't call out at several events and I kick myself everytime for letting him get away with it. I know in my heart that it still happens and that could very well be my fault.

I was in the group at Tupelo last year. Matter of fact I was lining up a 25' putt when MTL's roller came through our area. We did say something to him, but we never officially warned him. We did warn him later on in the round because he was being an arse. He blew off the earlier incident as if it wasn't a big deal and [censored] off a couple of people in our group. So when the talking kept on he was warned. It was my first time meeting him, I had heard he was a huge richardhead. Needless to say I still don't know him and won't judge based on my only experience with him. He was only warned one time and should not have been given any strokes for multiple violations.

As for cheaters. I think we all have been faced with a pencil whipper or rule bender in our time as tournament players. If you don't step up and make an example out of the people breaking the rules they will keep on doing it. I've been faced with a pencil whipper twice since I've been playing. The first time our entire group did nothing about it. The second time the entire group did something about it and the player was disqualified from the tournament. I don't think it was ever reported to the PDGA, but I think justice was served. I've played with him since then and cheating was not an issue. I have seen this person that we didn't call out at several events and I kick myself everytime for letting him get away with it. I know in my heart that it still happens and that could very well be my fault.


Thank you for giving us the story from someone that was a part of the situation. :)

I was in the group at Tupelo last year. Matter of fact I was lining up a 25' putt when MTL's roller came through our area. We did say something to him, but we never officially warned him. We did warn him later on in the round because he was being an arse. He blew off the earlier incident as if it wasn't a big deal and [censored] off a couple of people in our group. So when the talking kept on he was warned. It was my first time meeting him, I had heard he was a huge richardhead. Needless to say I still don't know him and won't judge based on my only experience with him. He was only warned one time and should not have been given any strokes for multiple violations.

As for cheaters. I think we all have been faced with a pencil whipper or rule bender in our time as tournament players. If you don't step up and make an example out of the people breaking the rules they will keep on doing it. I've been faced with a pencil whipper twice since I've been playing. The first time our entire group did nothing about it. The second time the entire group did something about it and the player was disqualified from the tournament. I don't think it was ever reported to the PDGA, but I think justice was served. I've played with him since then and cheating was not an issue. I have seen this person that we didn't call out at several events and I kick myself everytime for letting him get away with it. I know in my heart that it still happens and that could very well be my fault.



Thanks for your account HOWEVER...

We here prefer 5th hand accounts filled with errors, innuendos, libel, and slander .

Take your first hand information and beat it. We don't take too kindly to those type of people in these parts. :p

Jay,

Thank you!!!

I know that Robert can be a royal pain. No one has told him to stop talking more than I have. However, in this instance I do know that only one warning was noted on the card.

It is interesting that the person that brought up MTL &amp; Tupelo Bay has not responded to my accusation that they are not who they say they are or that they have knowingly broken the rules at every PDGA event that they have ever played.

Kirk

Thanks for your account HOWEVER...

We here prefer 5th hand accounts filled with errors, innuendos, libel, and slander .

I want to take your third leg and beat it. Do you want to go on a date and talk about it, big boy?



Dude, you're creeping me out. If you don't want me around just say so. You don't have to attempt to lure me behind some vacant building some where, so you can do crazy things with my unmentionables. :eek:

Jay,

Thank you for posting. As I said in my posts about the incident, it was a really stupid thing to throw into you guys and other than I was playing really well and just didn't think I could reach the green, had no reason to throw. It was a very stupid move and I thought I apologized that weekend, but if I did not, I truly thought it was stupid.

However, I truly appreciate you posting the actual account of what happened even though you might not have much respect for me as a person or player b/c of the incident, which I surely can understand.

I find it really awesome that you were able to look past some things to stand up for the truth. Being labeled a cheater is not something that anyone who preaches the rules and stands behind them wants to hear.

I have no reason to judge you as a person. I don't know you and have only met you a hand full of times. I have heard stories and I try not to judge based on those stories. I actually thought that Kirk was a real arse after that tournament. I had the chance to play with him at Earlwood and was able to develop a true opinion. He's just a man that sticks to what he says and doesn't back down for anyone, I have to respect that. I'm sure one day I'll have the same chance with you. Until then you're just another disc golfer and not a cheater in my eyes.

I love happy endings....

Jay,

You're right I am a <font color="blue"> [edited] </font> most of the time. I wonder if I will be sanctioned for a personal attack against myself? Maybe I should complain to the moderators that I have attacked myself....lol

Anyway, thank you for your honest assessment. The only time I will back down is when I am wrong. Which does not happen very often but it has happened.

Kirk

My opinion of Kirk is different from most people's. I love the guy.

Jay,

. The only time I will back down is when I am wrong. Which does not happen very often but it has happened.

Kirk


Once.... i think it was September 2007 :D

BWD,

I hope you documented it. If not then it never happened.

Kirk

I've caught you being wrong. However, the shot I took to my "personal" area with a CE Fastback at BWD's house quickly taught me to not point it out.

I've seen you putt and I was amazed you could actually hit something with a frisbee. Of course the target was slightly larger than a basket :D

That was a shot in a million. That might be one of the funniest moments in disc golf history.

Wasn't trying to assess. I had an original opinion ans after getting to know you a little more that opinion changed. You've been fair to me in the few dealings and meetings we've had. I just wish you would post the registration info for Tupelo, then I'll love you.

Jay,

Thank you for posting. As I said in my posts about the incident, it was a really stupid thing to throw into you guys and other than I was playing really well and just didn't think I could reach the green, had no reason to throw. It was a very stupid move and I thought I apologized that weekend, but if I did not, I truly thought it was stupid.




Robert, I specifically remember you gloating to our group about how you drove the hole in doubles the day before, and then you just went and drove on them anyway...with all the apologizing you thought you needed to do, a warning (even from yourself) would have been very appropriate to help curb your selfishly distracting actions that plague those around you.
P.S. Don't suggest for me to be your cart-mate if I go to Tupelo this year!

Carter, hope you can make it!

I know I'll be there.

What a fun weekend. JJ's coming this year with me also!

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/cza1121l.jpg

i was in vermont,saw the "deer in the headlights" but the card was turned in correctly...

sjur, bard and sprague are true,honest professionals from my playing experience. MTL doesn't help his reputation with his annoying prose and it shouldn't be a surprise people jump on him on a daily basis.

here's a funny story, am i a cheater??

My first year as a professional, playing '01 USDGC after sneaking in the backdoor with the vermont bid, got paired with barry first round. After carding double digits on the 1/4 mile hole, I approach 888 with hopes of a 5. I'm walking with my wife, having a good time, a few OBs later we are walking to the next hole and they call out the scores. I announce my "9". Barry quietly walks over to me and suggests we recount my throws as he believes i have an 11. AMAZINGLY, he counts all of my shots, where they landed, where they went OB, the putt i missed and my final count of an 11.

Humbled and embarrassed, I agree &amp; accept the score, wondering if the eventual champ thought i was trying to cheat? Was I cheating? absolutely not, but if I was in the cash, it could be interpreted that way (they don't pay for finishing 5th from last)

what amazed me, and all credit goes to Barry Schultz, is that he was friendly, professional and took the time out to politely fix my error before it became an issue. He also shot a (then) course record 58(beat me by 18 strokes) during that round, all the while smiling, laughing, taking photos and having fun.

Jay,

Thank you for posting. As I said in my posts about the incident, it was a really stupid thing to throw into you guys and other than I was playing really well and just didn't think I could reach the green, had no reason to throw. It was a very stupid move and I thought I apologized that weekend, but if I did not, I truly thought it was stupid.




Robert, I specifically remember you gloating to our group about how you drove the hole in doubles the day before, and then you just went and drove on them anyway...with all the apologizing you thought you needed to do, a warning (even from yourself) would have been very appropriate to help curb your selfishly distracting actions that plague those around you.
P.S. Don't suggest for me to be your cart-mate if I go to Tupelo this year!



I'll assume this is Carter, if not I apologize. Since you are in the mood for pointing fingers, I distinctly remember you abusing the golf carts during our round together. Not positive, but that could be a reason that we could lose this tournament opportunity forever. There was already some moron running on the greens and then you're playing crash up derby on the short course.

I cheated at Monopoly one time, what are you people going to do about that.

I cheated at Monopoly one time, what are you people going to do about that.



I knew it was weird that you had two hotels on Boardwalk.

WOW!!!!
DELETE THIS THREAD.

Jay,

It is posted!!!

Kirk

so he loves you now?

Just one of many!!!

Brock is so cool - I shouln't have lent you that shammy; Kirk is cool but you wouldn't know it... Kirk you were wrong that ONE time you locked your keys in the car with your bag... I guess that's what insurance on the rental car is for huh?

Most people just make mistakes...some are asses as a general rule... others cheat... we must deal with all these truths as we deem appropriate...

Sjur said it best (incongruous as that may seem)... Wow!! KILL this thread...

don't carry on...

I would just like to let you all know that I love you all.

Group hug?

i am putting my logo on some shammy's as we speak, you'll get the first run, ok daniel?

11,000 views = hard to warrant killing a thread

good outcome of calling somebody out on cheating:
they will probably NEVER try it again as all eyes are on them.

http://www.sensory-systems.ethz.ch/Lectures/Visual/JumpingSpiderEyes.jpg

Jay, Very cool post. As I have followed this thread mostly in disgust, It is nice to see someone choose to tell the facts as they happened, when you could have said something negative about a player so many seem to hate. Thank you for your integrity and Professionalism .

I wanted to come on here and list all the good things Robert Leonard has done for Disc Golf. How his tournaments are best run events. His writings on Disc Golf are right on target. How he promotes the sport. That would be a long post. Let me tell you what makes all he has done seem insignificant. At least to me.

2005 USDGC spectator day. I was hired to take photo�s of a Ript�ed tournament. My son Andrew and I had been playing Disc Golf 6 months, Andrew was 9 years old. Between holes (waiting for the group ahead of us to throw) Robert Right way started talking to Andrew about Disc Golf. This Amazed Andrew that a Disc Golf Pro would take time and interest in a beginner. He would ask little things like do you practice play with mini�s in the house. And would say yes, Robert would say I did to and still do. He went on to tell Andrew with Practice he too could be a Professional Disc Golfer some day.

When we got back home I had an obsessed Disc Golfer on my hands.

9 months later at age 10 Andrew won his first Jr World Championship.
Robert has continued to be involved in Andrew success as a coach and advisor.

Would Robert Leonard Cheat at Disc Golf. I don�t think so. Would he break our rules. We all do.

On Fairway drives I am bad about step past or beside my lie. Yes I�m breaking a rule when I do so. Am I cheating? No I just not very coordinated. So if you play with me and I do it. Worn me. Stroke me if I do it again.

BUT DO NOT SAY NOTHING,. AND LATER GET ON THE MESSAGE BOARD AND TELL PEOPLE I CHEATED.


Wyatt Coggin PDGA# 27744

Andrew Coggin PDGA# 27745
2x Jr. World Champion
2x Jr. World Doubles Champion
2x Jr. World Putting Champion
2x NC State Games Jr. gold Medalist.

And since I've incorrectly been labeled a cheater, I will tell what really happened in my case too.

I was playing a good round and came up to a short par 4 where the group was putting. I, playing well and wanting to stay hot, teed and crushed a roller and put it about 25 feet away - while the group was still putting. <font color="red">I had no idea I could reach the green and really wasn't thinking when I threw.</font>


A few holes later, the group I threw into approached me and asked why I did that. <font color="red">I immediately said "guys, I'm sorry, I have no idea why I did that, stupid decision" and they were like "yeah, you should know better" and I agreed and apologized again.</font>




I was in the group at Tupelo last year. Matter of fact I was lining up a 25' putt when MTL's roller came through our area. We did say something to him, but we never officially warned him. We did warn him later on in the round because he was being an arse. <font color="green"> He blew off the earlier incident as if it wasn't a big deal and [censored] off a couple of people in our group. So when the talking kept on he was warned. </font>It was my first time meeting him, I had heard he was a huge richardhead. Needless to say I still don't know him and won't judge based on my only experience with him. He was only warned one time and should not have been given any strokes for multiple violations.




<font color="green">Robert, I specifically remember you gloating to our group about how you drove the hole in doubles the day before, and then you just went and drove on them anyway</font> ...with all the apologizing you thought you needed to do, a warning (even from yourself) would have been very appropriate to help curb your selfishly distracting actions that plague those around you.
P.S. Don't suggest for me to be your cart-mate if I go to Tupelo this year!



good to see the ReaL story come out. guess its just the style of writing hes best at... inaccurate

Andrew Coggin PDGA# 27745
2x Jr. World Champion
2x Jr. World Doubles Champion
2x Jr. World Putting Champion
2x NC State Games Jr. gold Medalist.



very nice titles.. way to go Andrew

Thank you Chris I will pass on your comments on to Andrew.

For reasons I think you can understand I don�t allow Andrew on the Message board. I will from time to time show him post that young Disc Golfer friendly.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/cza1121l.jpg

i was in vermont,saw the "deer in the headlights" but the card was turned in correctly...

sjur, bard and sprague are true,honest professionals from my playing experience.

here's a funny story, am i a cheater??

My first year as a professional, playing '01 USDGC after sneaking in the backdoor with the vermont bid, got paired with barry first round. After carding double digits on the 1/4 mile hole, I approach 888 with hopes of a 5. I'm walking with my wife, having a good time, a few OBs later we are walking to the next hole and they call out the scores. I announce my "9". Barry quietly walks over to me and suggests we recount my throws as he believes i have an 11. AMAZINGLY, he counts all of my shots, where they landed, where they went OB, the putt i missed and my final count of an 11.

Humbled and embarrassed, I agree &amp; accept the score, wondering if the eventual champ thought i was trying to cheat? Was I cheating? absolutely not, but if I was in the cash, it could be interpreted that way (they don't pay for finishing 5th from last)

what amazed me, and all credit goes to Barry Schultz, is that he was friendly, professional and took the time out to politely fix my error before it became an issue. He also shot a (then) course record 58(beat me by 18 strokes) during that round, all the while smiling, laughing, taking photos and having fun.



Thanks Brock, how have you been?

You are not a cheater, just a victim of a double decker bus hitting you. You called your score out loud and believed it to be true. I'm sure that given time to think you would have caught the mistake, most likely on the next hole - you probably wouldn't have checked your score and turned it in incorrect. The problem I think is when people are preying on opportunities under the guise of "oh sorry I made a mistake". IMO that's the worst - the guy who has the b*lls to erase (that takes guts and is likely not going to happen much) but someone who try's to float bad scores regularly, feels they can point to human error with impunity (no cheating).

Solution: I won't be correcting people anymore, unless I sense it's an honest mistake (due to being hit by a bus) - I will be addressing it with the TD and my group after it's approved by the player and turned in. That way regardless of intent - your crime or mistake is properly punished - that should fix the habitual short term memory problems.

One big GLASS HOUSE and everybodys got rocks!

Code <font color="red"> RED </font>
The Crowd gets bigger everyday!

I think that all who play or intend to play disc golf at santioned pdga events should start in a beginners group the first tournament they play with a moderator or official that knows the rules and can help assess certain situations and let the individual know that hey you can't do that, or that is not allowed, according to the rules of play, you would be charged a stroke, and based on their performance in accordance with the rules and their level of etiquette while playing would allow them to move up with the approval of the official, this way, by the time said individual wanted to move up divisions, and if they want to play open, everything will be on a professional basis, and all rules applied with the knowledge of rules and a sense of professionalism. (my first round at a pdga event I was fortunate enough to have max crotts in my group and he let me know when I had a question about any rules that I was not completely knowledgeable about as we went along in a helpful manner)

In my job as a middle school teacher I get to see cheating in its developmental stages. I think sometimes we forget that cheating comes pretty naturally...and it takes someone or something to teach you not to. Middle schoolers are in the middle of their moral development, and let me tell you, if they are sure they will not get caught, even the best of kids will cheat. Most kids need something embarassing to happen to them or their friends to get the lesson. Or they need to be guided by someone older in the fact that cheating does not get you ahead without expense.

I think the post above shines light on half of our problem in DG. Many people start out playing PDGA events in rec or int. divisions where the rules are not strictly followed. In my own DG mediocrity I have spent years in the adv. division, and I see rules get trampled all over. I can't count the number of times I have heard an entire group making a wrong call, and had I not intervened the rules would not have been followed. Many "experienced" adv. players use rules to a competetive advantage or they do not call anything. Many young adv. players pay NO attention to other people's scores or other adherence to the rule. Though I've only encountered one instance of obvious pencil whipping, the conditions in the lower divisions and even adv. are ripe for it.

So I agree that rules must be emphasized more when players are starting. Mistakes should be penalized worse and intentional cheating should carry a lifetime ban imo. Because we can never catch all the cheating we could at least make the stakes higher for the few that do get caught and hope the fear trickles down.

or do away with advanced masters/grandmasters/etc... some of those guys would be playing rec/intermediate and would be able to help teach the next generation and alleviate the need for a volunteer or paid official.

or do away with advanced masters/grandmasters/etc... some of those guys would be playing rec/intermediate and would be able to help teach the next generation and alleviate the need for a volunteer or paid official.

or have it as a mixed division with x amount of adv. masters or officials for x amount of first pdga event individuals in their group based on the amount of new players. like 2 adv masters/rec/grandmasters for 3 beginners at least for the first round or two and then shuffle them into the division they signed up for after the assessment has been made.

Now that the discussion has turned to proactive and postitive brainstorming this thread is most certainly dead and buried. :D

Where does it say in the rulebook that a warning must be marked on the scorecard? I don't recall seeing that?



Chuck has never issued a warning. :eek:

I can't read, thanks

: ) :

[QUOTE]
Where does it say in the rulebook that a warning must be marked on the scorecard? I don't recall seeing that?



804.03 D

Generally a written description of any warning or penalty should be written on the scorecard (wherever there is room to do so) and should include whatever rule was broken.

should be

that says should be not must be. :p

The rules say shall be.

Rule book in hand. "804.03 D. Warnings and penalty throws given to a player for rules infractions shall be noted on the scorecard."

I just cheated on Madden 09. went for it on 4th and 20 in the first quarter and scored a touchdown. lets see who can beat that...

J

I think it should be "shalt". :)

The rules say shall be.


What's the penalty for not marking a warning on the scorecard and who gets it? :eek:

Is that like a misadded scorecard where the correct score is really the total score plus warning? If so, then the perhaps the warned player gets the 2-shot penalty?

The penalty is that the player warned/penalized is not warned/penalized.

or have it as a mixed division with x amount of adv. masters or officials for x amount of first pdga event individuals in their group based on the amount of new players. like 2 adv masters/rec/grandmasters for 3 beginners at least for the first round or two and then shuffle them into the division they signed up for after the assessment has been made.



WAY back in the dark ages (the 1990s) this was a common practice at PDGA events. It was a great way to play with the pros and learn from them. The practice is discouraged in the current rule book (804.06A).

I run the Cornhusker State Games every July. It is a non-sanctioned event. I continue to mix the cards the first round for just this reason. I get a number of new tournament players in the CSG. They are used to playing the "flip the disc over" marking style and other casual round habits.

I tell my experienced golfers that if they see a courtesy infraction that they are GENTLY instruct the offender the error of their ways. It enforces the idea that you are in a tournament and not just tossing you discs around with your buddies. Tournament etiquette is a must, but how can you learn tournament etiquette if no one teaches you?

That does work very well. We do it in the Central Valley Series.

BTW, Rhett cheated at the worlds...at ping pong!

um no not how that happened group didnt find the disc Old Man Wallis did and he stroked him as the disc was ob and over the river and The Old Man picked it up to return it to the owner as i was in the group you are speaking about in my opinion it was a stupid careless i forgot it was there thing we all have made them just most dont admit them

I heard of another incident of cheating. An Adv. Master had a weight taped to the inside rim of his disc to help with his turnover shots. He got stroked for using an illegal disc from what I heard. :o



A friend of mine (Super Dave) was in the group that found the weighted disc and turned it in to the TD. Player was stroked.

When players are driving to shotgun start positions, they don't all need to go back to HQ.

According to 804.03F, each player is responsible for turning in their scorecard. However, even if the TD provided individual scorecards, there's nothing to prevent a player from tampering with their card and there doesn't appear to be rule book support to allow TDs to require players to turn in the card(s) together, even though it might be a good idea.



We're considering asking to do this at Worlds next year:

Have two players bring the scorecard into tournament central after the round. The two players would have to initial the card in the presence of an official/course TD at tournament central, and that official would also initial the card. Seems a little bit drastic, but I imagine most players won't mind if it helps curb the pencil whipping.

I haven't run this by the Comp Committee yet, but we intend to.

Chap



Yep, so be ready. this worlds will require 2 people to turn in the card. This also allows the Course director to be accountable for the score card if it is lost. So then there are two players that say, well, I gave it to Jack and he signed it, he lost it, we turned it in, we got a 67, 54, 53, and that bastard shot a 44, can you really lose it and let us play over? Won't happen! I thought that I had lost a scorecard at this worlds and was sick over it. So I would have been horribly upset with myself if that was the case, but ti was not the players fault, it had fallen inbetween boxes, and we found it later, but we already had gotten the scores in.....correctly from calling th player that turned it in.

Can I get a receipt? :D