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abee1010
Feb 22 2008, 09:14 AM
Thanks

dickybird
Feb 22 2008, 12:27 PM
Does anybody know if or when Vista will set up in the Memorial layout? I'm down there this weekend for my kids to play soccer and was hoping to squeeze out a practice round.

Discraft_Keith
Feb 22 2008, 01:19 PM
The baskets won't be placed until the weekend before the event. We do have the layout printed here in the store and Dano painted the tee areas last week on the south side course.

blazinpat
Feb 24 2008, 03:55 AM
Any hint on tee times yet?

TravisBlase
Feb 24 2008, 01:13 PM
Blazek,

Hey, when you lived in Colorado did you used to frequent the Nebdisc forums? I have seen your name a lot in the past, but can not place where for sure. Anyway, my girlfriend and I are coming in on the DD RV for GCC and the Memorial. I hope to get to meet you sometime during our road trip.

Nice tourney last week too, by the way.

I don't know if you or anyone else does this or not, but I have a few guys in my head, mostly people I don't know, but have been following in the disc golf scene. They all have similar ratings and statistics to myself, and I always check their stats and try to surpass or at least stick with that certain group of players on my climb upward in the ratings. Anyway, that might be weird, I don't know, but you are one of those guys, now with that tourney last week, I'm going to have to have some really solid play over the next three weeks to keep pace with you. Thanks for the involuntary inspiration. Oh yeah, I'm not a stalker.

Blase

blazinpat
Feb 24 2008, 03:49 PM
Haha nice dude, Yeah I kinda do the same too man, I just didn't get a chance to play many tourneys last year. I'm shooting for around 25 this year. I used to get on the Nebraska forums occasionally but not much, I used to live in Kansas, then Colorado, now here.

I actually know Rusco (Mr. DD himself). I'm actually trying to find a place for you guys to park the RV. I'll definitely hit ya guys up when you're out here. Alright well goodluck these coming tourneys and I'll definitely see ya guys at the GCC and Memorial! Laters

channelz
Feb 24 2008, 10:30 PM
Here is 8 minutes of highlights from the final round at last years memorial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7pLQ_lP_DU

Bart

michellewade
Feb 25 2008, 03:22 PM
Any hint on tee times yet?



Good question!

Yeti
Feb 26 2008, 11:35 AM
On behalf of the PDGA, National Tour and the Memorial presented by Discraft; we cordially invite everyone out the first stop of the 2008 NT Clinic Series. This series was designed by the touring disc golfers as a way to give back to the tournaments, fans and communities that host us and our sports best competitive venues.

Tuesday, March 4th from 4:00-6:00 at Moeur Park (Papago)

Your guest Pro Instructors will be:
-Nate Doss (Current World Champion)
-Barry Schultz (2X World and 3X US Champion)
-Steve Brinster (US Distance Champion)
-Eric McCabe (US Putting Champion)

Each instructor will give a twenty minute segment on a specific disc golf topic designed to help improve your game. The last forty minutes will allow some hands-on assessment of your game, meet and greet and autographs.

There will also be a glow-mini round afterward sponsored by the AZDGC and Spinners on the Green.

Come in force and bring your friends!

haleigh
Feb 26 2008, 12:04 PM
I cannot wait for this tournament!!

savard1120
Feb 27 2008, 02:17 PM
Can you PLEASE post the Pro waitlist?

blazinpat
Feb 27 2008, 02:31 PM
He said they don't post it I believe.

haleigh
Feb 27 2008, 02:41 PM
We don't post the wait list.


You already asked that question and got the answer?!?!

Discraft_Keith
Feb 27 2008, 03:09 PM
The tee times are up for Pros (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7282) and Ams (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7292) .

Anthony, you have been moved to Open!

abee1010
Feb 27 2008, 03:17 PM
Yoy have been fooled by an imitation Sinistral Deucer, but there is only 1 ABee! Click on the profile and you will see that fool isn't even rated high enough to consider playing in this event!!!

haleigh
Feb 27 2008, 03:20 PM
weird?

abee1010
Feb 27 2008, 03:28 PM
The tee times are up for Pros (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7282) and Ams (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7292) .

Anthony, you have been moved to Open!



YESSIRRRR! Thanks Keith! See you in a week!!!

chappyfade
Feb 27 2008, 03:44 PM
The tee times are up for Pros (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7282) and Ams (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7292) .



Interesting. I figured they'd stagger the groups from day-to-day, so the same division didn't always have the early tee times or the late tee times. This setup they have for Thursday (round 1) is traditionally what you'd see on Saturday (round 3). Hopefully it's not going to be Friday's setup also. Maybe they have something different in mind for Friday and Saturday than what they've done in recent years.

Also, I always thought it was nice to see one highly rated player in each group for the Open at least for Friday, but I see they've gotten away from that. That's too bad, it was pretty well-received. I see what they did with the last group with Doss, Feldberg, Climo, Schwartz (World Champ, Players Cup Champ, U.S. and European Champ, Am World Champ), but I wish they hadn't totally stacked one group like that. They did the same thing with the women, placing Des and Burl in the same group.

Chap

Giles
Feb 27 2008, 04:00 PM
Looks like I've got some locals!

Funny thing is, my whole card is rated low enogh to play intermediate. (playing MA1)

csrenda79
Feb 27 2008, 05:30 PM
I have the same thing on my card both here and Vegas. I am the highest rated player on either card, and my rating is 929.

kwilliamson
Feb 27 2008, 05:47 PM
There are only 23 people playing advanced that are above 934 if I counted right.
So there are going to be quite a few of low rated cards.

sunrisensunrise
Feb 27 2008, 06:34 PM
With the elimination of the Intermediate division, the players that would have signed up as Intermediates are now forced to either play Advanced or not play at all. So of course there will be an influx of lower rated players. The way I see it, as an Intermediate player, the only way I can get better is to play against better competition. This is just that type of opportunity.

Discraft_Keith
Feb 27 2008, 06:39 PM
I'm very excited to announce that we will be debuting the new Discraft maximum distance driver, the Force at this years Memorial. Dano has tested this disc and thinks it is going to be huge! If you are not going to make it but know someone who is, make sure they pick you up one.

ck34
Feb 27 2008, 07:05 PM
There are only 23 people playing advanced that are above 934 if I counted right.
So there are going to be quite a few of low rated cards.



Since all of the am payout is essentially in the player pack, there's no downside for even the lowest rated players to enter Advanced since you're ahead before you start.

mgaffney
Feb 28 2008, 01:27 AM
The caddie books are now online for the memorial fountain and vista layouts. I believe they are in color, everyone will get a b/w version in their players packs.
We packed the players packs tonight, they are sick, all the goodies stuffed into the backpacks.
The trophies for the am side are sweet, trophy baskets from DGA with the Memorial logo on them.
Thank you Barley for the tons of hours of reworking the books for this years layout.
Gaff

sunrisensunrise
Feb 28 2008, 03:12 AM
Based on the Caddy book, Par=60 at VdC but what is par at Fountain Hills?

For the record, if I shoot par at either course I will be very happy as I will have all of one day of scouting before the tourney.

mgaffney
Feb 28 2008, 09:32 AM
Par 55, although hole 2 probably averages closer to 5 throws but can be 3ed with 2 stellar shots.
check out scores for fountain hill thrills (http://http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7352#Open) The cash line was +6 but tough conditions.
Gaff

Giles
Feb 29 2008, 04:16 PM
We packed the players packs tonight, they are sick, all the goodies stuffed into the backpacks.



:eek: do we need to take an empty suitcase to get this stuff home!?! :cool:

Discraft_Keith
Feb 29 2008, 04:41 PM
We packed the players packs tonight, they are sick, all the goodies stuffed into the backpacks.



:eek: do we need to take an empty suitcase to get this stuff home!?! :cool:



It is in a sweet back pack so you will have another carry on!

Discraft_Keith
Feb 29 2008, 04:51 PM
Updated Pro and Am tee times today after making some adjustments. These tee times will change as people drop so be sure and check on Weds., March 5th for final times, here online or at Duke's for check-in.

haleigh
Feb 29 2008, 07:37 PM
We packed the players packs tonight, they are sick, all the goodies stuffed into the backpacks.



:eek: do we need to take an empty suitcase to get this stuff home!?! :cool:



It is in a sweet back pack so you will have another carry on!


I love backpacks!

barley
Mar 02 2008, 12:56 PM
The caddie books are now online for the memorial fountain and vista layouts. I believe they are in color, everyone will get a b/w version in their players packs.
We packed the players packs tonight, they are sick, all the goodies stuffed into the backpacks.
The trophies for the am side are sweet, trophy baskets from DGA with the Memorial logo on them.
Thank you Barley for the tons of hours of reworking the books for this years layout.
Gaff



Thanks for the kudos. The Caddie Books are all in black and white this year to save time and money. The teesigns are all in color and have hole information including pars for fhills.

Barley

warwickdan
Mar 02 2008, 03:48 PM
Does having a 4-some with Climo, Feldberg, and Doss bother other top-rated players at the event? Do other top players feel that this is an unfair advantage to have 3 of the top 4 players play together in the first round?

I've contemplated putting top players in a group for the sake of appealing to spectators. but they'll end up together in subsequent rounds so i didn't see the need in the events I've TD'd. i always felt it wasn't fair if i forced that kind of "dream foursome".

aren't groups supposed to be created using some kind of semi-random method?

or is this much ado about nothing?

just trying to gauge reactions and thoughts so i have a sense as to what is and is not desirable....

bschweberger
Mar 02 2008, 11:24 PM
I would rather play with peeps I have never played with b4 in the first round of any tournament.....I ask lots of TD's to try and do that for me, so get a chance to play with somebody different.

the_kid
Mar 02 2008, 11:30 PM
Does having a 4-some with Climo, Feldberg, and Doss bother other top-rated players at the event? Do other top players feel that this is an unfair advantage to have 3 of the top 4 players play together in the first round?

I've contemplated putting top players in a group for the sake of appealing to spectators. but they'll end up together in subsequent rounds so i didn't see the need in the events I've TD'd. i always felt it wasn't fair if i forced that kind of "dream foursome".

aren't groups supposed to be created using some kind of semi-random method?

or is this much ado about nothing?

just trying to gauge reactions and thoughts so i have a sense as to what is and is not desirable....



I would prefer it to be a little more random.

mpetre
Mar 03 2008, 12:03 PM
I'm not playing the memorial (heck, I'm still a Rec Rated man), but I believe that if you are going to do anything other than random groupings, that the strategy you have taken is probably unfair and unwise. First of all, even in the big PGA events you don't expect to go out on the first day of an event (especially the first round) as a spectator and see all of the top rated players together. Secondly, it used to be that in PDGA events they would group Pros with Ams so the ams could get the experience of playing with top players, but many pros did not like this because they felt as though the am players often hurt their competitive edge (that's the story I get from an old DG source at least.) Thirdly, the top two, three or four players now have a competitive edge that the rest may not have from the starting gate. Fourth (and I believe most important) this is the only time that a person who is playing up or maybe is a lower to middle ranked pro may get to play with the world's best. Why would you short them this opportunity when the best get to play with one another rather often? I hope this decision does not backfire too much on your event (and I mean that sincerely) but in the future I would recommend spreading the experience of getting to play alongside the very best amongst the field. Don't you think this might keep more players coming back for years to come? I know that if I were ever lucky enough to play with Climo, Feldberg, Jenkins, Doss, Brinster, Hatfield, McCabe, etc. as a partner in a Pro/Am; well, that's one event that I would be eternally signing up for. Good luck, especially to Guillermo (AMS), Tannock, and Fortenberry in Arizona!! Enjoy the weather and watch out for the jumping cholla.

aaron7447
Mar 03 2008, 01:52 PM
I think that the final pro group, Doss, Feldberg, Climo, Schwartz (World Champ, Players Cup Champ, U.S. and European Champ, Am World Champ), for the first day is a fabulous grouping.

There is a chance that all these players will end up in the same tournanment again this year but you can't bet on it and you can't bet that at any of those other events that they will end up on the same card. And there is no guarantee that any time during the 3 rounds of the Memorial that all these players will end up on the same card. So why not give the fans a chance to see a dream group like this. This is the first NT of the year, the kick off so to speak, and to start it off like this should be expected.

I don't think that it gives this group an unfair advantage on any of the other players. The pro group is always stacked with exceptional players at this event. This year there are 100 pro men 25 of them are rated over 1000 and 39 of them are rated over 970. There is plenty of opportunity for the lesser rated pros to get paired up with a fantastic player.

And these groups are pulled randomly so to speak. They first put the groups together and then may move some players around so not to get too many players from the same region or state are playing in the same group together. And as far as pairing pros and ams together at a NT event I would be surprised if that ever happened, maybe in the very old days of disc golf. You may see that in B tier events and definately in C but not at a NT event.

I myself am looking forward to getting down to The Wedge to watch this group once I am done playing at the Fountain.

ellswrth
Mar 03 2008, 02:07 PM
I would prefer it to be a little more random.



Me too. I'd feel that way more-so if I was playing Open -- as my best chance of playing with these guys would be by random draw in the first round.

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 02:28 PM
I think that the final pro group, Doss, Feldberg, Climo, Schwartz (World Champ, Players Cup Champ, U.S. and European Champ, Am World Champ), for the first day is a fabulous grouping.





This is a very cool idea - they do the same thing in ball golf at certain tournaments.

mpetre
Mar 03 2008, 02:46 PM
True they do this for the US Open, and I don't have a problem with it if it is an established standard. I'd just hate to see a case where we started predefining finishing order with starting order to one extext or another. Just my personal opinion that it was a mistake in Disc Golf, but my personal opinions are sometimes not worth the gray matter they are formed in. Part of the allure of DG to me is that I have a chance to meet and hang out with top or even mid-level pros. If the same were true of ball golf I would be playing it much more, cause I love the game almost as much.

xterramatt
Mar 03 2008, 03:04 PM
One thing it's good for is spectators and media.

"hey, come out at __:__PM and you'll be able to watch the current world champion, 12x world champion, Players Cup Champion, and Amateur World Champion. All playing together. Get your sound bites and your video all in one shot."

It makes it easily palatable for the busy news crew, and they can probably get the top women as they come off the course at about that time.

Making the game media friendly is a good thing. For a friday first round, to get great coverage of top players so you can put together an excellent and entertaining news piece on the sport and tournament that will probably run all weekend, this would be a good idea. Just make sure the media folks come out.

michellewade
Mar 03 2008, 03:25 PM
If I were an open male player, I'd be kind of bummed too and cry foul play, not fair, etc. So I feel for you guys who are feeling this way.

As a spectator, I'm 100% stoked that I'm teeing off early on the other course and will be done and done with lunch at Duke's and have time to come out and watch this group!! What an awesome chance to video!!!

They can't please everyone, I suppose.

aaron7447
Mar 03 2008, 04:36 PM
True they do this for the US Open, and I don't have a problem with it if it is an established standard. I'd just hate to see a case where we started predefining finishing order with starting order to one extext or another. Just my personal opinion that it was a mistake in Disc Golf, but my personal opinions are sometimes not worth the gray matter they are formed in. Part of the allure of DG to me is that I have a chance to meet and hang out with top or even mid-level pros. If the same were true of ball golf I would be playing it much more, cause I love the game almost as much.



Maybe the Memorial is trying to establish a standard by creating this grouping at this event. This year's Memorial has instituted several different items including opting for large player packs for ams and trophies as opposed to am pay outs and starting the tourney on a Thur rather than Friday.

And obviously you've never played in the Memorial or these 2 course layouts. Just because these guys are starting the round together does not mean they will finish the round together. I have spectated and worked at this particular event on several occasions and seen great players have a difficult time with these courses. So by no means does this "starting order predefine the finishing order" I'm sure the other 21 1000+ rated pros don't consider themselves out of the competition just because of one days grouping.

warwickdan
Mar 03 2008, 05:08 PM
good comments by all....

however, i'd still be curious to get a sense of what the other 1000-rated players at this event think about this non-random grouping. e.g. what do schultz, brinster, mccabe, crabtree, rico, jenkins, etc. think about this grouping? what would climo, doss, or feldberg think about this grouping if they weren't part of the 4-some?

the comments about this group being great from the spectator and media standpoint make a lot of sense.

appealing to the top competitors agenda and to the spectators may be two separate viewpoints (in the short term). long-term it behooves all the top competitors to make sure we do what we can from a spectator and media standpoint to help increase the sport's visibility and excitement factor.

again, my point in questioning what the top players feel was to get a sense if this dreamgroup is liked or disliked so i can repeat it or avoid it for the next NT event i run.

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 05:14 PM
from what I understand the top pros (or most pros for that matter) don't care about their first round grouping.

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 05:28 PM
from what I understand the top pros (or most pros for that matter) don't care about their first round grouping.



I like to be with at least one guy better than me so I don't slack on my game. If you play with 3 950 guys you don't have as much push and for me if I miss a putt I think it is no big deal but if you are playing with someone who makes it a big deal you won't miss as many. :D

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 05:34 PM
I'm going to do some analysis on the scores from Memorial to see if the average rating of your group makes any difference in terms of how well you play. The odd thing would be that if it does matter, then it would be an argument against pairing players with the same scores like we normally do for the rest of the event. I don't expect that to be the case since we're all just playing the course, right?

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 05:37 PM
I like to be with at least one guy better than me so I don't slack on my game.


I heard Climo likes that, too, but TDs just never do that for him... :cool:

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 05:42 PM
I like to be with at least one guy better than me so I don't slack on my game.


I heard Climo likes that, too, but TDs just never do that for him... :cool:



Yeah but I bet he likes a challenge.......

BTW the worlds format the 1st day was BAD so take notes on that too Dan. Do not keep the same groups for both rounds.

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 05:42 PM
BTW the worlds format the 1st day was BAD so take notes on that too Dan. Do not keep the same groups for both rounds.



agreed

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 05:45 PM
BTW the worlds format the 1st day was BAD so take notes on that too Dan. Do not keep the same groups for both rounds.



agreed



Yeah I won my card with a 54 and would have been on the 3rd card but instead we played with the same guys and I tied a guy on my card who I beat by 9 the 1st round. :confused:

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 05:49 PM
yeah I was with Barry, a very quiet european and a very quiet guy from Texas.

Neither I nor Barry knew the other two, so Barry and I had quite a few long talks that day - lol

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 05:52 PM
yeah I was with Barry, a very quiet european and a very quiet guy from Texas.

Neither I nor Barry knew the other two, so Barry and I had quite a few long talks that day - lol



Olse? That guy never shuts up once you get to know that ethiopian. :D

It was either him or Chris Albert because I think they were the only MPO Texans besides robbie and I. 3/4 in the cash too. :D

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 05:53 PM
Jeremy Doyle I think?

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 05:57 PM
Never seen that guy in TX

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 06:00 PM
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=27515&year=2008

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 06:02 PM
BTW the worlds format the 1st day was BAD so take notes on that too Dan. Do not keep the same groups for both rounds.


At this point, the formats at any event take the staff into consideration as much as the players. No one missed their tee assignment in the second round and had a relaxing time at lunch. It's not like ball golf hasn't kept groups together for the first two rounds like maybe forever?

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 06:09 PM
Yeah lunch was relaxing but having any idea how you were compared to everyone else was tough. Blueberry kicked my butt both rounds but the 1st of the two was much more frustrating because you were playing with guys on your card who you were beating by 10= strokes.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 06:11 PM
You can't have it both ways. Either you're playing against the course. Or if playing with better players actually does make a difference in scores, then we definitely need to reconsider how groupings are done in the future so we don't give an additional advantage to those playing better.

MTL21676
Mar 03 2008, 06:12 PM
I guess the thing for me was my favorite thing about worlds is playing w/ people I've never met before and for that 2nd round, I didn't have that honor.

the_kid
Mar 03 2008, 06:13 PM
Definantely playing against the course but certain decisions you make are based off how your card is shooting. I find it harder to make putts when nobody else on your card is as well.

ck34
Mar 03 2008, 06:32 PM
Like I said, it will be interesting to look at actual numbers. There's no doubt there's the possibility of a faux placebo effect where you think you play better with better players whether or not it actually shows up in the numbers. Certainly one event isn't enough data but it's a start. I don't know of any other studies on this, even in ball golf.

mpetre
Mar 04 2008, 01:20 AM
I put in my two cents earlier, not because I actually play in these situations often, nor because I think one way or the other is really wrong or not. However, I do believe there is a real effect that occurs based upon the card you are playing on and how they are doing in the tournament. If there is anyone out there that believes differently (really), let me know and I'll come play open and we can request that I get to play on your card for the entire tournament. I know it wouldn't be very scientific, but I also have a feeling you might not play as good once you were on a card in the second and third round with a guy thats in last place. That being said, I do think the effect of playing with people that are shooting well is one that should always be considered. In the typical format (random, then carded based on score) everyone has a first chance to get on a good card and beyond that you must play beyond your card-mates if you did poorly early. This works out to at least seem fair. I agree Chuck that it could also be fair to do the pairings in some sort of best-worst score format throughout and that would definately keep things fair and (better yet) would make sure that every one of the lower level guys gets to play with the top notch players at some point or another. Then in the finals you could always make sure the "star" cards are playing together. In the case of the memorial it will be very interesting to see how much play these 3 guys get together (sorry AM champ, but it's just a whole different level.) I don't think The Memorial is making a huge mistake or anything, but I wouldn't be very happy if this kind of card pre-organization were done at all of the major tounaments.

That's one of the problems in our ugly cousin (ball golf), breaking into the sport (even if you are really good) can be difficult because of PGA elitism. We as disc golfers don't suffer from this yet; but if interest in our sport ever gets close to that of ball golf, we will have to either suffer some of the same problems or just accept that any kind of favoritism leads to more favoritism and in turn hurts what we stand for as a sport. I hope this makes some sense, I'm passionate but open-minded about the subject.

Funny thing is... Matt Hall is the guy that I asked a few months ago (not knowing him all too well) at a local tournament. "How would you feel about me as a rec-rated player who always plays intermediate, well occasionally advanced when I'm masochistic, playing with you pro guys in a small tourney just to get a feel for things at your level and to learn some?"

MH- "Hey, that's how I learned and it's always fun to play with someone new."

So it's not that he wouldn't be willing to play with me (once :)), but who would want to be stuck with me after they had a stellar 50 on a difficult course while I was happy with my 70? Just more thoughts on the same subject.

Like I said before, wouldn't mind if it were pre-defined for a tourney as a part of the Lore, but just don't want cards like that to become the norm across the board. BTW, discgolfersr.us rocks!

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 02:09 AM
Regardless of the data results, it will be interesting to see how well players' perceptions of how pairings impact their play bears out with actual numbers. Of course, it's hard to take into account the personality conflicts with some players that likely impacts a player's perfomance more than the rating of that player.

mpetre
Mar 04 2008, 02:31 AM
I know from recent experience that being in the "cash" with a group makes a huge difference as to how I play and how the group as a whole looks at the tournament. Of course Pro players are well past some of these newbie issues of giving up, but I am pretty sure it still makes a big difference in how one plays. I was told by a wise buddha once that pros did not like to play with lower level ams in a tournament for this very reason.

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 02:34 AM
The numbers will tell. I think many feel that playing with those who are out of contention for cashing might lower the performance in the group. I'm going to isolate the data for the lower groups in the last round to see if it plays out.

mpetre
Mar 04 2008, 02:47 AM
Your work is incredible and I have to tell you how much it is appreciated.

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 02:58 AM
Thanks. We find a few gold nuggets out of the many ideas thrown around here.

davei
Mar 04 2008, 10:06 AM
You can't have it both ways. Either you're playing against the course. Or if playing with better players actually does make a difference in scores, then we definitely need to reconsider how groupings are done in the future so we don't give an additional advantage to those playing better.



Even if you're playing against the course 100%, you can get a lot of good information from good players that you can't get from others. Route selection, wind speed and direction, disc selection etc. Of course, if you are constantly going first on the tee, you won't get this information, but if you are first, you are doing well. Additionally, not only is it helpful to watch good drives and good putts, it can be distracting and debilitating to watch poor players. It takes courage to perform well under the gun, so to speak. Good players have the courage it takes. Poor players are playing with fear and indecision much more often. IMO, fear tends to breed fear, and courage breeds courage.

So, for the reasons stated, I don't think groups should be stacked in the first round. I don't think putting the Am champion with the Pro Champion, and then two other lower rated players is a bad thing at all. Many other groups will have two very good players in the same group anyway.

When and where groups start on the course can have a considerable effect too. Going early versus late can make a difference with tee times. Starting on some holes versus others, can make a difference on shot gun starts too.

The advantage the stacked group might have can be mitigated by a poor starting time.

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 10:46 AM
One of the good things about looking at Memorial scoring data will be that everyone starts on the same hole. But I will separate the numbers into maybe three groups based on start time in case weather is a factor.

bruce_brakel
Mar 04 2008, 11:11 AM
According to the secret rule book there are only two ways allowed to make groups: randomly or by rating. See, Secret Rule Book, 1.6(B). It is nice to see that the big tournaments leading the way in ignoring the secret rule book.

I say, if you go to an NT and it is not run by PDGA secret rules and you don't like that, then don't go next time. But since you know in advance, either withdraw and demand a refund, or shut up and play.

JerryChesterson
Mar 04 2008, 11:12 AM
Happy B Day Chuck

cgkdisc
Mar 04 2008, 11:19 AM
Celebrated several fun B-Days at the Memorial but not this year. Going to stand & deliver (actually slip & slide) at North Valley today.

csrenda79
Mar 04 2008, 11:31 AM
I know this question was asked earlier in the thread but I don't know where. What time and which course do the doubles start at on Wednesday?

xterramatt
Mar 04 2008, 12:56 PM
having three of the top players playing in identical wind conditions (reading off each other's shots), will definitely be an advantage for them. If it's windy, they have skilled players to watch throw, guys they are familiar with. If it's calm, they are just doing the same thing, only without the worry of the wind.

I hope the reasoning is because of media relations, because otherwise, it's unfair to the rest of the players. Noontime to 3 is usually the windy time, it calms down later, and with the majority of the wide open long holes coming on the back, it could be a huge advantage.

aaron7447
Mar 04 2008, 12:56 PM
Tuesday, March 4th: 4:00 PM : National Tour Pro Clinic @ Moeur Park

6:30 PM : Night Doubles @ Moeur Park

Description: AKA Papago Park - will scuff your discs. Perfect drives can leave you without a shot. Next to a dry wash - water runs sometimes and increases difficulty. Fun, hot, dusty and challenging.

Directions: I-10 east through city and take 202 eastbound, exit at Center Pky., north to 1st right, turns into Curry, east to Mill Ave., park is on NE corner of Curry and Mill. North of Curry a few hundred yards - kind of hidden on the east side. Little to no parking.

This is a permanent 9 hole course. I'm sure they will add baskets for the doubles. This is a desert course. Rock and dust terrain, cactus, Mesquite trees. Tight and blind shots. Fun course. Better bring your Champion plastic because this course will chew up the Pro and regular molds

Hanau
Mar 04 2008, 01:36 PM
Carl -

Random draw doubles at VdC, Wed. afternoon. Not sure of the exact time, but atleast you know where 2 b. See u there.

johnbiscoe
Mar 04 2008, 01:36 PM
having three of the top players playing in identical wind conditions (reading off each other's shots), will definitely be an advantage for them. If it's windy, they have skilled players to watch throw, guys they are familiar with. If it's calm, they are just doing the same thing, only without the worry of the wind.

I hope the reasoning is because of media relations, because otherwise, it's unfair to the rest of the players. Noontime to 3 is usually the windy time, it calms down later, and with the majority of the wide open long holes coming on the back, it could be a huge advantage.



whether it's for media relations or not is not a determinant of fairness.

aaron7447
Mar 04 2008, 02:04 PM
Carl -

Random draw doubles at VdC, Wed. afternoon. Not sure of the exact time, but atleast you know where 2 b. See u there.



Sorry about that Carl I didn't notice the Wednesday part. Normal club doubles usually kicks off 4 or 5 this time of year. Since Memorial sign in starts at 5 you may see doubles kick off somewhere between 3 and 5 if you call SOG 480-941-2513 they can probably tell you a definate time.

barley
Mar 04 2008, 03:50 PM
From what I hear, doubles $ will start be collected sometime around noon, and will fill up at some point. The start time is 3:00, but should fill up before then. There used to be a cap of 100 players at $10 each. This year could be 72 to fill up the 18 hole course, not sure yet.

barley
Mar 04 2008, 03:53 PM
In my opinion, the best thing to do would be to get there between 12 and 1, check in for the tourney, sign up for doubles (Duke's Beer optional), go to Spinners for backups if necessary, warm up at Vista, get back to Dukes before 3 for the doubles start(Duke's Beer optional, but recommended).

Barley

aaron7447
Mar 04 2008, 03:56 PM
Thanks Barley

michellewade
Mar 04 2008, 04:38 PM
Any chance of giving the ladies some strokes so when a dude gets paired with us he doesn't say/think, "Oh man, I got a chick." If we're givin a few strokes, the dude will be happy he got paired with a chick instead of all bummed out.

Any chance of this happening?

the_kid
Mar 04 2008, 04:42 PM
Maybe the TD should just not mix the cards..........

csrenda79
Mar 04 2008, 04:56 PM
In SD, women get 2 putts inside 30 in doubles (it might be that way everywhere, I don't know). In those instances, I never mind having a woman as a partner. In fact, I see it as an advantage, because I can usually handle the driving/upshots. Having 3 putts instead of 2 is golden.

michellewade
Mar 04 2008, 05:07 PM
In SD, women get 2 putts inside 30 in doubles (it might be that way everywhere, I don't know). In those instances, I never mind having a woman as a partner. In fact, I see it as an advantage, because I can usually handle the driving/upshots. Having 3 putts instead of 2 is golden.



Great idea!

Not mixing the cards is another great idea but we do like to play with the guys as well.

Luke Butch
Mar 05 2008, 01:05 AM
Wow its awesome here, I now understand why everyone plans their vacations for this tournament.

Staying @ the 3 Palms(basically ON the course) is pretty sweet too :)

chappyfade
Mar 05 2008, 05:10 AM
BTW the worlds format the 1st day was BAD so take notes on that too Dan. Do not keep the same groups for both rounds.


At this point, the formats at any event take the staff into consideration as much as the players. No one missed their tee assignment in the second round and had a relaxing time at lunch. It's not like ball golf hasn't kept groups together for the first two rounds like maybe forever?



Ball golf does it to even out conditions over two days, because they operate on tee times. If you have a shotgun start (everyone starts at the same time), then keeping the same group together for two rounds is unnecessary, and frankly, it's competitively undesirable. But we've been over this ad nauseum. Frankly, I think a reshuffle within the pool by score (like every other PDGA event), and a 30 minute longer lunch would have been a better idea.

cgkdisc
Mar 05 2008, 11:02 AM
and frankly, it's competitively undesirable.


Your opinion. No facts.

jlvd
Mar 05 2008, 09:00 PM
So, I am at the Memorial right now sitting in Dukes. I just got Avery to sign up for the Fantasy Disc Golf site. So, you might not be able to beat him in real life, but now you have the chance to beat him online!

And don't forget that there is a $5 league where every week you have the chance to win a disc provided by one of our sponsors. And right now, we have VERY FEW people signed up. Those discs are going to be very easy to come by! And I am having some meetings with some great disc golf companies working on more sponsorship.

There is only 1 day left to get your picks in. Sign up at http://www.fantasydg.com. Remember, if you want to wait until after the Memorial to sign up for the Pro or Adv division, I will still take your picks you make in the free Novice league and move them to Pro or Adv league. But you have to sign up before the next NT event!

http://www.fantasydg.com

alexjohnson13
Mar 05 2008, 09:45 PM
Just signed up and paid the 5 bones...figured screw it this sounded interesting.

Now who is gong to report on injuries during tour and give the inside Mort view on breaking news??

Sweet

Mar 05 2008, 11:42 PM
I tried to contact you thru the "contact me" link so that I could have you add me but it wouldn't let me contact you.
pdga # 26039

jlvd
Mar 05 2008, 11:53 PM
That is strange. Please email me at jonnyv@skipace.com.

chappyfade
Mar 06 2008, 02:39 AM
and frankly, it's competitively undesirable.


Your opinion. No facts.



OK. I'll bite.

Why would you keep groups together for two rounds with shotgun starts?

Competitively, I mean, not administratively.

Chap

cgkdisc
Mar 06 2008, 03:05 AM
I think it's competitively neutral because you're playing the course. And, it doesn't bring the top dogs together for one more round so they play with different people for a longer time. No question it was done for admin reasons in a remote location with limited food options, courses having never been fully loaded before and weak alternatives in the event weather and delays became a problem. If we had those issues, it would have looked more like we did the right thing. Snowbowl ended up on the other side of that ledger and I was there to witness that debacle. Once warned, twice shy. Since there were no problems, some people complained because it was different.

Hey, maybe we could do musical chairs after round 1 where the top seed on each card moved up one card and the other three could get to play with two top dogs at Worlds.

I'd like to see an auction where players could bid to play with any other player in the first round with anyone else in their division. Half of the bid money goes to the purse in that division and half to the player who the bidder wanted to play with. The nicer the top players are on tour, perhaps the higher their winning bid and they get rewarded for that.

kwibby1
Mar 06 2008, 03:14 AM
Jonny V! just signed up but seems its too late to get in the memorial? does AZ have same time as wisconsin? 12:30 a.m thursday now. anyway Good luck to the wisconsin boys!............ i was gonna pick YOU as my number 1 too :)

Mike Ramstack

JerryChesterson
Mar 06 2008, 10:59 AM
Good luck today to all the players at the Memorial. I am jelous and wish I was there! Give my regards to all the cougars in snobsdale :o
http://www.signs-up.com/prod_images/Cougar_xing_thumb_640.jpg

the_kid
Mar 06 2008, 05:05 PM
I think it's competitively neutral because you're playing the course. And, it doesn't bring the top dogs together for one more round so they play with <font color="red">the same </font> people for a longer time. No question it was done for admin reasons in a remote location with limited food options, courses having never been fully loaded before and weak alternatives in the event weather and delays became a problem. If we had those issues, it would have looked more like we did the right thing. Snowbowl ended up on the other side of that ledger and I was there to witness that debacle. Once warned, twice shy. Since there were no problems, some people complained because it was different.

Hey, maybe we could do musical chairs after round 1 where the top seed on each card moved up one card and the other three could get to play with two top dogs at Worlds.

I'd like to see an auction where players could bid to play with any other player in the first round with anyone else in their division. Half of the bid money goes to the purse in that division and half to the player who the bidder wanted to play with. The nicer the top players are on tour, perhaps the higher their winning bid and they get rewarded for that.

cgkdisc
Mar 06 2008, 05:29 PM
And, it doesn't bring the top dogs together for one more round so they play with the same people for a longer time.


You're still playing to challenge the course, and a different one, which those same players may do better or worse on. The point is there was no definitive negative competitive disadvantage nor significant benefit. So, if neutral, then the admin benefits swayed the decision as I've already stated. Significant benefits would only come to the players in the event we had the problems we were defending against. It's a lot like insurance. You hope you never have to tap the benefits even though you complain when you have to pay the premiums each year. In this case, we already had the incident at a recent Worlds with insufficient insurance as a lesson for the future.

cgkdisc
Mar 06 2008, 05:32 PM
Shouldn't we be seeing some scores getting posted by now? Or maybe they're not posting this year as they come in?

rizbee
Mar 06 2008, 06:55 PM
That's exactly what I was wondering...

lien83
Mar 06 2008, 07:39 PM
bueller?

kellerthedog
Mar 06 2008, 08:44 PM
where are the pro's playing tomorrow? which course?

rizbee
Mar 06 2008, 08:58 PM
The silence is deafening...

bschweberger
Mar 06 2008, 09:44 PM
Probably playing Fountain tomorrow

uwmdiscgolfer
Mar 06 2008, 10:09 PM
i just talked with my WI crew down there. Heard barry had a score of 50, which was leading from what they heard. That could be topped as the last few cards were still out.

the_kid
Mar 06 2008, 10:10 PM
McBeth shoots 51........

the_kid
Mar 06 2008, 11:28 PM
Scores are up......

flyboy
Mar 06 2008, 11:28 PM
Mc nuggets
,Mc rib,
now on the menue the Mc Beth...Only offered in the kids meal..... ;)Always fresh...

AnotherSteve
Mar 07 2008, 12:19 AM
Mc nuggets
,Mc rib,
now on the menue the Mc Beth...Only offered in the kids meal..... ;)Always fresh...



I order the McCabe....

chappyfade
Mar 07 2008, 02:16 AM
The point is there was no definitive negative competitive disadvantage nor significant benefit.



Your opinion. No evidence.

chappyfade
Mar 07 2008, 02:19 AM
Pros play Fountain tomorrow (Friday). Ams are at Vista.

cgkdisc
Mar 07 2008, 02:22 AM
Actually I can still determine whether it made a difference since I have the pairings and round ratings from Worlds. I just did the first round numbers at Memorial for pro divisions. No correlation either in how well someone did compared to their rating in relation to the average rating of the other players in their group. And, no correlation between how well a player played in comparison to the actual round ratings that the other players shot in their group in comparison to their base ratings.

For stats buffs, the correlation coefficients were 0.07 and 0.09 respectively. Those numbers would need to be 8 to 10 times higher before you might consider the possibility of a correlation. Anything I should know about in terms of weather differences between 7:30am and 6pm?

the_kid
Mar 07 2008, 02:26 AM
Actually I can still determine whether it made a difference since I have the pairings and round ratings from Worlds. I just did the first round numbers at Memorial for pro divisions. No correlation either in how well someone did compared to their rating in relation to the average rating of the other players in their group. And, no correlation between how well a player played in comparison to the actual round ratings that the other players shot in their group in comparison to their base ratings.




Probably not the best control tournament..............I mean with that much OB it makes things different.

cgkdisc
Mar 07 2008, 02:30 AM
It's an event with a big pool of pro players who have the most stable ratings. I'll do it for Worlds and see, plus spot check as the NT season progresses. Once I have enough data, I can see whether some individual players are more impacted or not by the people they play with. Here's an amazing stat: Ken Climo has NEVER played in a group with an average rating higher than his since ratings started in 1998.

flyboy
Mar 07 2008, 03:04 AM
The Mcabe, is avb in a few states ,and comes only with a red sauce.Still a good seller for Ronald. ;)

the_kid
Mar 07 2008, 03:06 AM
The Mcabe, is avb in a few states ,and comes only with a red sauce.Still a good seller for Ronald. ;)



Fantasy is looking decent but I need E-mac to keep it solid.


I was going against the odds this week leaving Feldberg off the top 4 and going with Rico for 1st but I think Dave may have a hiccup on these courses that suit his game well.


Nikko and Bratten to SURGE!!!!!!!

ChrisWoj
Mar 07 2008, 03:15 AM
It's an event with a big pool of pro players who have the most stable ratings. I'll do it for Worlds and see, plus spot check as the NT season progresses. Once I have enough data, I can see whether some individual players are more impacted or not by the people they play with. Here's an amazing stat: Ken Climo has NEVER played in a group with an average rating higher than his since ratings started in 1998.


Has it ever, at any point, been possible for a group of 3 active PDGA Members to average out higher than Climo's rating? Because that "amazing" stat really is kind of meh as amazing stats go. ;)

cgkdisc
Mar 07 2008, 03:52 AM
Not since they started. He's been on top for most of 10 years and maybe only second or third by a point or two briefly. So, only sometime several years before 1998 would it have been possible if we had ratings then. But I'm thinking it might have been before 1990 for the first few years he played.

my_hero
Mar 07 2008, 09:48 AM
The Mcabe, is avb in a few states ,and comes only with a red sauce.Still a good seller for Ronald. ;)



Fantasy is looking decent but I need E-mac to keep it solid.


I was going against the odds this week leaving Feldberg off the top 4 and going with Rico for 1st but I think Dave may have a hiccup on these courses that suit his game well.


Nikko and Bratten to SURGE!!!!!!!



Ha. I picked Feldberg, Barry, Ken, and Steve... not in that order but all of them are in the top 8 with 2 being in the top 4. Anything could happen still.

seewhere
Mar 07 2008, 10:23 AM
let's go TEXAS.. bratten in open and tony P in adv. and somebody tell Ken tank franks Happy birthday

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 10:46 AM
was that a shorter Vista layout? I recall low round last year being about 54.

jefferson
Mar 07 2008, 10:53 AM
Ha. I picked Feldberg, Barry, Ken, and Steve... not in that order but all of them are in the top 8 with 2 being in the top 4. Anything could happen still.


same picks here... barry 1st

stack
Mar 07 2008, 10:54 AM
not sure if Pros act that fast w/ new plastic but does anyone know if the Force has made its way into anyones bag yet for this tourney?

MTL21676
Mar 07 2008, 10:58 AM
I went Dave E-Mac Kenny Barry

my_hero
Mar 07 2008, 11:07 AM
Can we not see each others pics? My actual order was:

Kenny, FeldBORG, Barry, Stevie.

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 11:17 AM
Another food item is on the menu. the #4 Value Meal. The MkAllstrom, with a side of meatballs and noodles.

cgkdisc
Mar 07 2008, 11:33 AM
was that a shorter Vista layout? I recall low round last year being about 54.


Looks like the SSA this year is a little more than 4 shots easier with about a 59 SSA and 63+ last year:
www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=12 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=12)

Furthur
Mar 07 2008, 01:29 PM
Less windy this year perhaps?

uwmdiscgolfer
Mar 07 2008, 01:32 PM
I just got a phone call, Terry Miller came in with a Hot score of 49 at fountain this morning!

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 01:34 PM
looks like a different layout, perhaps. the skinny hole next to the water, 5 or 6? looks like it may go across the water, but that could be me. Or they could be using some shorter pins on the par 3s, because I am pretty sure it was 64 par last year, not 60.

I can count the par 4s from last year. 2, 3 par5, 8, 9, 11, 12, 15, 16, I think.

chappyfade
Mar 07 2008, 01:38 PM
Actually I can still determine whether it made a difference since I have the pairings and round ratings from Worlds. I just did the first round numbers at Memorial for pro divisions. No correlation either in how well someone did compared to their rating in relation to the average rating of the other players in their group. And, no correlation between how well a player played in comparison to the actual round ratings that the other players shot in their group in comparison to their base ratings.

For stats buffs, the correlation coefficients were 0.07 and 0.09 respectively. Those numbers would need to be 8 to 10 times higher before you might consider the possibility of a correlation. Anything I should know about in terms of weather differences between 7:30am and 6pm?



I don't think that one round of data is enough to make that judgment, and the argument isn't all statistically-based anyway.

As far as weather goes, it was much windier in the early morning rounds than later. The wind blew hard (about 15 mph) until about 10:00, then dropped to a more manageable 5-10 mph.

Chap

chappyfade
Mar 07 2008, 01:42 PM
looks like a different layout, perhaps. the skinny hole next to the water, 5 or 6? looks like it may go across the water, but that could be me. Or they could be using some shorter pins on the par 3s, because I am pretty sure it was 64 par last year, not 60.

I can count the par 4s from last year. 2, 3 par5, 8, 9, 11, 12, 15, 16, I think.



I wasn't here last year, but Vista is easier that it was in 2006. The long par 5 #12 is gone due to ball field construction, and hole #18 was lost as well. It very well COULD be 4 shots easier than in 2006.

cgkdisc
Mar 07 2008, 01:57 PM
I don't think that one round of data is enough to make that judgment, and the argument isn't all statistically-based anyway.


It absolutely IS based on that if we're only strictly looking at fair competition not other issues like admin, tradition, player perception, etc. You would be hard pressed to come up with a grouping scheme where it wasn't fair strictly from a competition standpoint since everyone is playing the course. If some grouping schemes are not fair purely from a player scoring standpoint, then we have a severe issue with how our competitions are run. The only grouping scheme that has been proven to potentially be less fair competitively is the equally seeded pools at Charlotte Worlds. That result has influenced how groupings have been done since then.

oceanjones
Mar 07 2008, 02:55 PM
On another note...Great Pics!! Thanks for getting those.

seewhere
Mar 07 2008, 03:12 PM
is that a foot fault on picture # 6?? looks like nate sees it :D;)

Mar 07 2008, 03:14 PM
Live lead group scoring is up!!! Feldberg with a 7 on hole 2, Barry now has a 4 stroke lead!!

my_hero
Mar 07 2008, 03:38 PM
Live lead group scoring is up!!! Feldberg with a 7 on hole 2, Barry now has a 4 stroke lead!!



The BORG has already made up half of those strokes.

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 03:38 PM
Lead card action is interesting.

wow, a 7, a 6, and a whole lotta 2s......

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 03:39 PM
mcBeth without a par so far...

my_hero
Mar 07 2008, 03:39 PM
Looks like McBeth had a little leadercard blues during his first 2 holes. Got back on track though....

MTL21676
Mar 07 2008, 03:46 PM
is that a foot fault on picture # 6?? looks like nate sees it :D;)



looks like from the pic on the front page that the tees were wider than the fly pads that were put out.

spudpicker
Mar 07 2008, 04:03 PM
Where can i get up to date Lead card info?

MTL21676
Mar 07 2008, 04:05 PM
theres a link to live scoring on the scores page and the front page of PDGA.com

Mar 07 2008, 04:05 PM
Where is the link to live scoring?

Mar 07 2008, 04:05 PM
Nevermind...Found it.

my_hero
Mar 07 2008, 04:05 PM
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7282#Open

click on live scoring from the above link

OSTERTIP
Mar 07 2008, 04:10 PM
The PDGA Competition Manual states only two methods for grouping for first round. Ratings and Random. So it either random or you must group by ratings creating stacked groups. Either way is fine with me, but for my events it will be random.

AnotherSteve
Mar 07 2008, 04:16 PM
ACE by Barry

MTL21676
Mar 07 2008, 04:17 PM
wow!!

my_hero
Mar 07 2008, 04:19 PM
ACE by Barry



That's going to make the Borg very mad.

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 04:20 PM
that'll be shot of the day tomorrow....

MTL21676
Mar 07 2008, 04:20 PM
Barry with 4321 on the last 4.

HOT

dionarlyn
Mar 07 2008, 04:21 PM
The PDGA Competition Manual states only two methods for grouping for first round. Ratings and Random. So it either random or you must group by ratings creating stacked groups. Either way is fine with me, but for my events it will be random.



I thought it was tradition to have the previous years winner (dave), current world champion (nate), current usdgc champion (kenny) and current am champion (greg) to play together in the first round.

How long is hole 12, which one is it again? I played there last year and can't remember.

Kette_Master
Mar 07 2008, 04:21 PM
ACE by Barry



That's going to make the Borg very mad.



He may even bang his head.

Jayviar
Mar 07 2008, 04:22 PM
This is looking to be an epic duel.

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 04:23 PM
it might be the water hole (elevated, 360ish) but no telling with all the changes.

MTL21676
Mar 07 2008, 04:24 PM
The USDGC has set groups. The first round the am world champion and defending champ at noon. And I don't think its a coincidence that Barry and Dave and Kenny and Nate seem to always get late tee times on the first day.

phluffhead
Mar 07 2008, 04:25 PM
Isn't there a caddie book

bschweberger
Mar 07 2008, 04:26 PM
Barry backed up the Ace with a Birdie...Tough to do.

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 04:27 PM
Ace sandwich. on a couple lean slices of birdie.

MTL21676
Mar 07 2008, 04:28 PM
whole group gets the next hole.

Dave would be shredding it without hole 2

phluffhead
Mar 07 2008, 04:28 PM
Hole is 290 per caddiebook at Fountain

mwatson10324
Mar 07 2008, 04:29 PM
caddy book found here

caddy book (http://memorial2008.disqman.com/)

dionarlyn
Mar 07 2008, 04:30 PM
This round is a batlle! Both for first and for third! Go Paul, rookie power!

CRUISER
Mar 07 2008, 04:31 PM
Barry 5 under in last 4 holes.

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 04:35 PM
oh wait, this is Fountain....

I was thinking Vista.

That makes that 7 on 2 understandable now.... As well as the 6 on 1, I got a 7 on it last year.

dionarlyn
Mar 07 2008, 04:37 PM
any news about second card?

CRUISER
Mar 07 2008, 04:38 PM
I'd like to know how the second card is doing. That third and fourth spot may not be holding up.

spudpicker
Mar 07 2008, 04:38 PM
is there any video yet on any site other the Discgolftv

cgkdisc
Mar 07 2008, 04:40 PM
With Barry and Dave 7 &amp; 8 down, it's possible someone from the second card could be passing the boys in third/fourth shooting 3 down so far.

CRUISER
Mar 07 2008, 05:00 PM
Barry finishes last 8 holes 8 under. Sick...

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 05:00 PM
wow. that's a pretty crazy round. especially on that course. not the easiest, but sometimes the breeziest.

MTL21676
Mar 07 2008, 05:01 PM
he shot 44 in 06 and it was like 1080. Looks like he might have tied the record.

dionarlyn
Mar 07 2008, 05:01 PM
1100?

cgkdisc
Mar 07 2008, 05:09 PM
I suggest that players who care about unofficial round ratings print out this chart and carry it with them. Maybe we should include it in the renewal packs each year.
www.pdga.com/competition/ratings/ExpectedScoresAndCompression%20graph.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/competition/ratings/ExpectedScoresAndCompression%20graph.pdf)

Mar 07 2008, 05:19 PM
What did McBeth shoot?

dionarlyn
Mar 07 2008, 05:20 PM
50 | (-5)

dionarlyn
Mar 07 2008, 05:22 PM
any second card news!?

widiscgolf
Mar 07 2008, 05:23 PM
Where is the link for live scoring? It seems to be gone....

xterramatt
Mar 07 2008, 05:33 PM
scores changed (to par) between last night and this morning (-11 to -6) then back again, so Dave's first round is now -11 again.

olsen129
Mar 07 2008, 05:40 PM
1100?



In 2006 the same score was a 1089!

phluffhead
Mar 07 2008, 06:12 PM
From caddie book par is 60

Mar 07 2008, 07:29 PM
Any word on when the scores will be updated? I heard Anton shot a -10, Pelg shot a -4...

westcoastsooner
Mar 07 2008, 09:14 PM
McBeth - 5..Is what I'm hearing from the SoCal People...

AnotherSteve
Mar 07 2008, 10:15 PM
Am scores are up...Pro should be soon

briangraham
Mar 07 2008, 10:22 PM
Pro scores and round 3 tee times are now posted:

http://pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7282#Open

the_kid
Mar 07 2008, 10:23 PM
The Mcabe, is avb in a few states ,and comes only with a red sauce.Still a good seller for Ronald. ;)



Fantasy is looking decent but I need E-mac to keep it solid.


I was going against the odds this week leaving Feldberg off the top 4 and going with Rico for 1st but I think Dave may have a hiccup on these courses that suit his game well.


Nikko and Bratten to SURGE!!!!!!!





I could be a pshyco.... :D

the_kid
Mar 07 2008, 10:29 PM
Good round Liz!

Pogis
Mar 07 2008, 10:36 PM
I know. This Lopez chick is have a good go of things. :D

chappyfade
Mar 08 2008, 01:17 AM
I don't think that one round of data is enough to make that judgment, and the argument isn't all statistically-based anyway.


It absolutely IS based on that if we're only strictly looking at fair competition not other issues like admin, tradition, player perception, etc. You would be hard pressed to come up with a grouping scheme where it wasn't fair strictly from a competition standpoint since everyone is playing the course. If some grouping schemes are not fair purely from a player scoring standpoint, then we have a severe issue with how our competitions are run. The only grouping scheme that has been proven to potentially be less fair competitively is the equally seeded pools at Charlotte Worlds. That result has influenced how groupings have been done since then.



Actually, you can't totally eliminate player perception or tradition from the conversation. If the players perceive the system is unfair, then it IS unfair, no matter what the stats might tell you. I know there was a former world champ at Worlds last year that wondered if the TD hated him....because of the people he had to play with for 2 rounds. 1 round he could live with....2 rounds was unfair.

To take your system a step farther, would you be in favor of keeping a group together for all 4 rounds in a 4-round event? After all, they are just playing against the course.

Would you be in favor of not grouping by score in any PDGA event? After all, they are just playing against the course.

The answers to the 2 questions above should be a resounding NO. While you might say that players are just playing the course, in the final round, that definitely is not entirely the case. They are also playing against the players in their group. I guarantee you that Barry is going to want to know tomorrow if he needs to go for a long putt with 2 holes to go. And that all depends on what the other players in his group shoot, not just the course. Yes, the players are playing the course, but they are playing against other players as well. If you don't recognize that, you are shortsighted.

Chap

chappyfade
Mar 08 2008, 01:25 AM
The PDGA Competition Manual states only two methods for grouping for first round. Ratings and Random. So it either random or you must group by ratings creating stacked groups. Either way is fine with me, but for my events it will be random.



Actually, you misread it.

Go to Competiton Manual 1.6 B(2)

The ratings method states that the groups will NOT be stacked. That method states the highest rated player will start on the lowest numbered hole, and the second highest rated player will start on the second lowest numbered hole, and so on. That policy would seem to prohibit stacked groups with the top 3 rated players in the same group.

Chap

DMoney1420
Mar 08 2008, 02:03 AM
I still think Feldberg will win climo second schultz third i may be wrong :cool:

CRUISER
Mar 08 2008, 02:12 AM
Barry's back....

Prediction: Barry, Climo, Borg

$100?

gdstour
Mar 08 2008, 02:50 AM
is the payout posted?

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 03:35 AM
I know there was a former world champ at Worlds last year that wondered if the TD hated him....because of the people he had to play with for 2 rounds. 1 round he could live with....2 rounds was unfair.



Dave did the pairings. I wasn't tracking who played together until looking at some groupings at the end of the day and most not until I entered hole scores a month after Worlds. Much of the reason is we didn't have any problems in this area because we planned for it and the scorers and marshals were on top of things so I didn't have to referee any issues for Open most of the week. Luck of the draw just like weather. No intent or master plan to manipulate the pairings a certain way.

You asked stictly about competitive factors being fair and there's no reason to believe that wasn't the case. If that was neutral, the net effect of the other factors like admin, weather insurance, player comfort, tradition and perception came out on the plus side for doing what we did and it wan't just a unilateral decision. Hoeniger, Graham, Gentry and a few other marshals supported the plan and it was announced several months before the event on here and the website.

Even if top players are in the same foursome in any round including the finals, there's no guarantee their scores are the best if the second card was tight to theirs going into it. It's uncommon for the winner to come from the second card in the last round but certainly not players who finsh 2nd, 3rd or 4th coming from the second card.

the_kid
Mar 08 2008, 03:59 AM
I know there was a former world champ at Worlds last year that wondered if the TD hated him....because of the people he had to play with for 2 rounds. 1 round he could live with....2 rounds was unfair.



Dave did the pairings. I wasn't tracking who played together until looking at some groupings at the end of the day and most not until I entered hole scores a month after Worlds. Much of the reason is we didn't have any problems in this area because we planned for it and the scorers and marshals were on top of things so I didn't have to referee any issues for Open most of the week. Luck of the draw just like weather. No intent or master plan to manipulate the pairings a certain way.

You asked stictly about competitive factors being fair and there's no reason to believe that wasn't the case. If that was neutral, the net effect of the other factors like admin, weather insurance, player comfort, tradition and perception came out on the plus side for doing what we did and it wan't just a unilateral decision. Hoeniger, Graham, Gentry and a few other marshals supported the plan and it was announced several months before the event on here and the website.

Even if top players are in the same foursome in any round including the finals, there's no guarantee their scores are the best if the second card was tight to theirs going into it. It's uncommon for the winner to come from the second card in the last round but certainly not players who finsh 2nd, 3rd or 4th coming from the second card.





Little conversation from worlds this year


Guy 1 "hey how did you shoot?"

2- "pretty good I should be in like 10th."

1 "Nice, what hole are you on?"

2 "Hole 8, know where it is?"

1 "Yeah its a tough par 4 back in the woods."

2 "Sweet I need directions...."



Took a four on that hole two but it would have been nice to play with some better players from around the country that 2nd round than the same guys on hole 8 in the middle of the course. Starting on the 1st few holes makes it easier to stay on your gameplan if you ask me.

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 10:39 AM
Took a four on that hole two but it would have been nice to play with some better players from around the country that 2nd round than the same guys on hole 8 in the middle of the course. Starting on the 1st few holes makes it easier to stay on your gameplan if you ask me.



One tradition of Worlds is getting lots of players thru several courses in a short time period to keep down expenses because the payouts aren't like ball golf. With much bigger payouts, every round can start on hole 1 for everyone.

the_kid
Mar 08 2008, 10:59 AM
Took a four on that hole two but it would have been nice to play with some better players from around the country that 2nd round than the same guys on hole 8 in the middle of the course. Starting on the 1st few holes makes it easier to stay on your gameplan if you ask me.



One tradition of Worlds is getting lots of players thru several courses in a short time period to keep down expenses because the payouts aren't like ball golf. With much bigger payouts, every round can start on hole 1 for everyone.




Not asking for tee times just the cards to be mixed after the 1st round with the better scores at the beginning of the course. C'mon Chuck is this such a new concept?

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 11:05 AM
You make it sound like the normal pairings policy is being changed. It's not. We made the choice for a very spcific combination of factors and it worked for the reasons it was done. I'm not suggesting that it be done as a regular plan or even just because. But I would do it again IF the same combination of factors occur again. But I think that's unlikely.

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 11:07 AM
Did any division(s) in either the Pro pool or Am pool play a few tees different from other divisions in their pool?

the_kid
Mar 08 2008, 11:19 AM
Why was it done in the 1st place? I know a lot of players drove into Melon to eat and that took at least the normal amount of time that any other lunch does so why the rush?

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 11:29 AM
Read my responses to Chappy.

the_kid
Mar 08 2008, 11:34 AM
Read my responses to Chappy.




You mean opinions to Chap?

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 11:37 AM
Not opinions. Exactly why we did it.

the_kid
Mar 08 2008, 11:40 AM
Not opinions. Exactly why we did it.



You said there were no negatives which is your opinion. Chap and I disagree with that opinion.

omarroper
Mar 08 2008, 11:56 AM
My prediction. McBeth, Feldberg, Schultz, Climo. :D

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 12:19 PM
You said there were no negatives which is your opinion.


I didn't say there weren't some negatives, positives and neutral factors. We decided on balance the net balance was positive, and it prevented the problems we were trying to avoid, unlike Flagstaff which ended up messy for Open. Why else would we have done it unless we felt it was better overall for the tournament, knowing we might get dumped on like this? TDs don't willingly do things differently if it means taking additional flak from players. We have enough to keep us busy doing volunteer work for the players. Remember that?

6735
Mar 08 2008, 01:38 PM
My prediction. McBeth, Feldberg, Schultz, Climo. :D


nah Shultz Climo McBeth Feldberg sounds more like it wonder how Paul is doing wathed the leader card for most of last round in vegas

thetruthxl
Mar 08 2008, 03:54 PM
Is there something wrong w/ the live scoring or are the times pacific?

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 04:04 PM
From the last lines of the article on the PDGA Home page:

Stay tuned to PDGA.com for live scoring of the lead group on Saturday. The showcase group of Schultz, Feldberg, Climo and McBeth tee off at 2:34 pm MST (4:34 EST, 3:34 CST, 1:34 PST).

thetruthxl
Mar 08 2008, 04:19 PM
thanks #34

cgkdisc
Mar 08 2008, 04:33 PM
you're welcome 2008

thetruthxl
Mar 08 2008, 04:43 PM
I keep forgetting, 4:30 pm is dark in our parts this time of year...doesn't seem like a logical tee time

ChrisWoj
Mar 08 2008, 05:01 PM
I keep forgetting, 4:30 pm is dark in our parts this time of year...doesn't seem like a logical tee time


It is? Must be a HUGE difference between Richland, Mi and Toledo, Ohio then... because I have been playing until past six in the evening for at least a month now.

mmaclay
Mar 08 2008, 05:18 PM
I'm missing this tourney for the first time in 4 years and am totally bummed about it. It was windy today so I went to a course with a lot of water and played a round from the unofficial "Long Tees." Reminded me of last year and the crazy wind. sigh...at least I had fun today. Good luck all players in their final round, especially my Colorado boys and Kathy Hardyman who's in 1st in Open Masters women.

-MADMAX

westcoastsooner
Mar 08 2008, 05:27 PM
just heard That Steve Thompson #23864 won Adv.Masters...

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 06:45 PM
The Borg has already made up 1 stroke on the 2nd hole against Barry....and Kenny takes a 6! This could be an interesting day.

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 06:58 PM
...and again on the 4th hole.

westcoastsooner
Mar 08 2008, 07:06 PM
All Innova team Final...............Spin iTT

doot
Mar 08 2008, 07:11 PM
Borg -6 after 6 holes..WOW

DMoney1420
Mar 08 2008, 07:14 PM
like i said feldberg will win

Luke Butch
Mar 08 2008, 07:25 PM
FYI- Val won FPO by a few

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 07:26 PM
Tie ballgame!

DMoney1420
Mar 08 2008, 07:26 PM
Sweet that is a good way to start her year

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 07:27 PM
FYI- Val won FPO by a few



WTG val!

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 07:29 PM
-8 after 9 holes for the Borg!

arlskipshot1
Mar 08 2008, 07:32 PM
An amazing round for sure.....come on Barry take it down

doot
Mar 08 2008, 07:35 PM
Let's go Borg!!

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 07:38 PM
Hole 10 was the first hole to not yield a birdie by a leadercard player.

rocguy77
Mar 08 2008, 07:43 PM
barry with another ace!

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 07:45 PM
WOW! 2 aces in the last 2 rounds for BS!

6735
Mar 08 2008, 07:46 PM
woooooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooooo 2nd ace for Barry i just seen on live scoring guess hes taking control now

arlskipshot1
Mar 08 2008, 07:47 PM
OOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 07:49 PM
It's certainly not over but if you're going to lose to someone at least you can use the excuse...well he had 2 aces! :D

doot
Mar 08 2008, 07:49 PM
wtf, i've been playing 3 years and i'm still waiting for my first!!

This is gonna be one helluva DVD.

arlskipshot1
Mar 08 2008, 07:51 PM
You figure there was probably 150 witnesses to that ace

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 07:55 PM
Hopefully they caught both of them on film and they'll be in the DVD.

doot
Mar 08 2008, 07:56 PM
Which course are they playing now?

MTL21676
Mar 08 2008, 07:57 PM
that is just NUTS

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 07:58 PM
Which course are they playing now?




from the pdga front page

gives him a three throw lead going into Saturday�s final round at Vista.

doot
Mar 08 2008, 08:10 PM
my bad..thx Hero.

keldog
Mar 08 2008, 08:10 PM
don't ever count Dave out!!!

xterramatt
Mar 08 2008, 08:15 PM
wow. ace again, if he wins by 1, that's just insane.

my_hero
Mar 08 2008, 08:20 PM
Yea...Barry has 2 aces and Borg took a 7 on a hole yesterday to BS's 3. That's a lot of strokes Dave has given up. I'd still like to see Dave take it!

arlskipshot1
Mar 08 2008, 08:24 PM
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO

doot
Mar 08 2008, 08:24 PM
dave w/ another bird to barry's par and we're tied again..gheesh.

DMoney1420
Mar 08 2008, 08:25 PM
YYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS

GO BORG!!!!!!

BACK TO BACK

arlskipshot1
Mar 08 2008, 08:27 PM
I got a bad feeling about this

keldog
Mar 08 2008, 08:28 PM
Hey Matt
How's that Kicker sound system working?