Your score is one of the most personal things you produce in this sport. Ratings are just a slightly fancier multiple of those numbers. It's no wonder that players usually want to think they've shot better than they really have, and likewise, don't always wish to face the truth of that personal info when they haven't. Pretty much human nature at work here. For some, ratings are a little too much of a public barometer of success or failure as a person when it's really just a simple reflection of your disc golf skill in the recent past and a reasonable estimate of your next performance. For other players, your "courtesy rating" during a round might be much more important...




Burn!.....




I agree that the ratings are almost always calculated correctly and reflect an accurate picture of the results and how players played. Chuck has shown an infinite amount of patience with people that don't understand all the variables in what affects the ratings (players and TD's). Thanks for your dedication, Chuck. I don't understand how you manage to respond to a post that involves ratings, but thanks!

My "courtesy" comment wasn't to "burn" anyone, especially on this thread. Just a general commentary to keep things in perspective. I suspect most players would consider a player's good behavior on the course more important than their rating. That's all.

On topic, I always liked Veteran's and hope to get back sometime.

so let me get this straight, if i shot the same score the first two rounds my rating should be different because the second round we played two champion teepads and many baskets were moved long? or does the calculation take in those variable at all? does it only compare you to the rest of the field in order to come up with your rating?

you'll never get it. :eek: :D

It does show the ratings are higher for the same score in the second round compared to the first. Since it's an A-tier for pros, everyone should have PDGA numbers and I see some still aren't listed there like Mitch Mac. That might shift the ratings a point once they're all in.

you'll never get it. :eek: :D



it starting to look that way...

ohh :eek: or were you talking about my game

It does show the ratings are higher for the same score in the second round compared to the first. Since it's an A-tier for pros, everyone should have PDGA numbers and I see some still aren't listed there like Mitch Mac. That might shift the ratings a point once they're all in.

only for the first round :)

**** this thread has more action after the tourney than before it. :o

Second and third round ratings could also be slightly affected depending on what Bo, Daryl, Colin and Marc shot and their ratings.

Shooting the scores takes but a weekend, but they remain for discussion forever. :D

Hey chuck. I am not saying I feel like I was jipped with ratings. I felt like I played a 990 round the second round. I feel that was accurate for me. What I am getting at is that the ratings dont seem right between the two rounds. Thats all. And its true there is a lot of info not turned in yet. I just thought it was interesting, I wasnt askin for a change.

It looks like the course rated a shot and a half tougher in the second round. Even if you think it should have been two, it's possible in big A-tiers with many travelers coming in that there's a slight learning curve that can make the course seem just a bit easier the next round to offset the tougher tees or pins. Overall though from what others have posted, the 1.5 tougher seems about right as opposed to say 1.5 easier.

Your score is one of the most personal things you produce in this sport. Ratings are just a slightly fancier multiple of those numbers. It's no wonder that players usually want to think they've shot better than they really have, and likewise, don't always wish to face the truth of that personal info when they haven't. Pretty much human nature at work here. For some, ratings are a little too much of a public barometer of success or failure as a person when it's really just a simple reflection of your disc golf skill in the recent past and a reasonable estimate of your next performance. For other players, your "courtesy rating" during a round might be much more important...



So if all of this is true, then why is it only good for the goose and not the gander? Meaning why are am divisions so "tightly" based on ratings and not pro divisions. If it works in the am divisions then it works in the pro as far as I can see.....or it doesn't work equally in both whatever the case may be. My point is that accurate or not, ratings are based on what you did as a player, not what I perceived as a promoter/TD. Therefore if you have a high rating than you should play with like rated players, regardless of you age or the size of your dress. Or maybe this is not on subject for this thread.

Does anybody really care?
As much as some of you would like to make ratings relevant..the fact is they are far too fallible to take seriously.


Obviously, many of your customers care about ratings. Not paying attention to your uploads so they're correct doesn't help their credibility. I help clean them up to make you look better and you torch the effort. The ratings are as accurate as the scores you report.


I'm working 50 hour weeks and had to beg to get three days off for this tourny. Monday morning I was sent to Lubbock for two days and got back late. I'm tired and sick and you, junior, want to critisize me for not giving enough!!!????? There's a place where the sun don't shine, Chuck. I'll get to my report in time.

I'm sorry for getting mad. I'm not computer literate. I have a real job with blue collar responsibilities. I rely on my wife and friends to help me make all the translations to the computer. I don't believe it has been stated that you must be comp savy to be a TD. I have NO!!! customers. That would imply a profit which there was NONE!!! Only sacrifice. You'll get you're stinking numbers in good time. Try and find some patience and quit expecting the world to revolve around you.

Your score is one of the most personal things you produce in this sport. Ratings are just a slightly fancier multiple of those numbers. It's no wonder that players usually want to think they've shot better than they really have, and likewise, don't always wish to face the truth of that personal info when they haven't. Pretty much human nature at work here. For some, ratings are a little too much of a public barometer of success or failure as a person when it's really just a simple reflection of your disc golf skill in the recent past and a reasonable estimate of your next performance. For other players, your "courtesy rating" during a round might be much more important...



Well put, Chuck.

Thank you. (Is there a tongue biting icon?)

Thank you. (Is there a tongue biting icon?)



Not quite a bite.

http://www.prep.fairfield.edu/atschool/FacultyWebSites/acanuel/einstein-tongue.gif

I wish they put that photo on my sweatshirt with his famous quote: "Imagination is more important than knowledge."

Easy there folks. Chuck is just trying to help, and Skip is going on no sleep for what, two weeks now?
Skip has given everything for this club not just this year, but for the entire existence of the club. The club was born in his living room. Which brings me to Sharon, his wife. She did so much to help us this year in the 07 VPO before, during and after the tournament. Words cannot express how grateful I am to the two of them. Many, many thanks for your dedication.

"Shooting the scores takes but a weekend, but they remain for discussion forever." Chuck Kennedy
I LOVE this quote! It needed to be posted again. :D

I wonder what Einstein's view on player ratings would be???? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :D

I'm thinking many would rather "imagine" their great rating than have the "knowledge" of what it really is... :p

Chuck...why are you doing any of the report adjusting? Please excuse my ignorance, but are you the one contracted by the PDGA to do ratings?

are you the one contracted by the PDGA to do ratings?




My guess is he needs a raise too. :D

Skip: Chuck...why are you doing any of the report adjusting? Please excuse my ignorance, but are you the one contracted by the PDGA to do ratings?

CK: I try to help out online when I can or hear about problems so the online unofficial ratings can be reasonable. I hear the complaints even though it's the TDs or the TD helpers who have the reports and know what courses were played during the heat of the event and shortly after. Roger Smith and I have been doing the ratings under contract with the PDGA from mid-2004 thru 2008 after creating the process and doing them free from 1998 until mid-2004 when the PDGA could finally afford some compensation.

Hero: My guess is he needs a raise too.
CK: Hazard duty...

So he's actually the one with customers. It is clearer to me now. No wonder he doesn't like my critisising his livelyhood. I forgive you for confusing me with someone as in need of approval as you. I do this out of love for friends and the game. You do that for money. No wonder you think you can jump me for not having your numbers for you immediately. I couldn't care less about your ratings being up to the minute. I have 30 days to get my report in and that's all I'm concerned about.
Sure the 10% of active members that post here are mostly in favor of ratings, but I have my doubts about how important "averaging" is to the other 90%.
I won't go on with this. I'm working on it.

What I don't understand is how is my -9 1026 rated when there was an -11, two -9s, a -8, two -6s, and a couple of -5s. And my +2 only 1017 when the best was even par with a +1 and two +2s and a +4 and everybody else shot +6 or much worse. It seems the last round should have been rated higher, so I am not on here trying to bash the system because I can't except how I shot. With exception to the second round I player rather well. It just does not make sence how the first round is rated 9 points higher than the last round.

You really don't know what it means to disengage do you? I gave you your chance. I politely stopped defending myself from your attacks since you were apparently tired from lots of volunteer work. Maybe when you get 7000 hours of disc golf volunteer work under your belt, Junior, you can criticize my getting some small compensation for work that many see just as valuable as paying Innova for their discs or DGA for their baskets. Your curbstone opinion about ratings just doesn't jive with the actual member survey that showed they are the second most popular benefit behind the magazine and the number one reason for International growth. Who'd a guessed a player's scoring record would be important to them?

Yeah, doing VPO is a lot of work. But you're preaching to the choir considering I just completed a year and half of mostly volunteer work to pull off Pro Worlds albeit with much appreciated help from other volunteers. So rest up and maybe you'll see the light another day. Don't rest too long though because you had 48 hours to report scores, memberships and layouts to the PDGA with the Final report and payment in two weeks, not 30 days.

chuck: I promise skip isn't really as mean as he sounds. He busted his hump all weekend and from his perspective I can see how your comments about getting stuff put into the computer could be taken in a pretty negative way.

skip: we still love you man. If it helps at all, I'll volunteer right now to do the computer-related VPO stuff for you next year. You might have to remind me in 10 months or so :D, but I will do it if you need the help.

to the complainers: stop whining, the ratings are what they are. Mine from this weekend are going to tear down any progress I've made in that respect lately but I have nobody to blame but myself. Just shoot better next time :)

What I don't understand is how is my -9 1026 rated when there was an -11, two -9s, a -8, two -6s, and a couple of -5s. And my +2 only 1017 when the best was even par with a +1 and two +2s and a +4 and everybody else shot +6 or much worse.


It's a trap to just look at the top scores to get an idea what the ratings will be because everyone with an established rating over 799 is involved equally in the overall course SSA calc. The ratings range is automatically narrower on 24 hole courses than 18 hole courses due to 6 extra holes. Think of it this way, close your eyes and pick any two of your rated rounds in your recent ratings history. Average those together. That's what rating you would have if there were a 36-hole course like those two you picked. The rating will be halfway between the two ratings because it's just that hard to sustain the higher rating level the more holes everyone plays beyond 18 holes. The good news is that you won't have as low of a rating for bad rounds on courses with more than 18 holes.

ok well nevermind... I was trying to help here but if that's the way you want to take it... nevermind. Skip is a great guy who has poured his heart and soul into Arlington Disc Golf and has managed to (with the help of Claydog and others) pull the ADGA out of a deeper hole than I would have wanted to deal with.

Let's try to remember that we're all on the same side here

As most regulars on here know, I'm pretty thick skinned and take a beating pretty well online on a variety of topics without snapping back too harshly. But Skip has been negative on ratings long before VPO and yet I still helped get them straightened out for his players and the event. I posted nothing negative until after he got it started with yet another negative remark about ratings.

I'd call myself a regular and I have seen you take a beating before on the boards... but I think you're wrong about where the negativity started. Your comments about getting information in on time might have started out as genuinely tongue-in-cheek... but you have to see how they could have been taken the wrong way and really hit a nerve that was best left alone.

Chuck, you do a lot for the sport and I'm sure you feel that it far outweighs what Skip has done but the fact is that both of you are solid volunteers and have put in more time than your fair share. The sport is struggling enough for solid support... When the good guys start fighting each other, what do we have left?

Look at the posting record and you'll see who posted the negative first. I'm not one to do that or I'd be waging many more skirmishes than I do already. I had been helping out online during the event as Mace posted the scores. I don't mind a skirmish in ideas but the "volunteer" card just isn't available.

Does anybody really care?
As much as some of you would like to make ratings relevant..the fact is they are far too fallible to take seriously.


Obviously, many of your customers care about ratings. Not paying attention to your uploads so they're correct doesn't help their credibility. I help clean them up to make you look better and you torch the effort. The ratings are as accurate as the scores you report.


I see what you mean, chuck... but I still don't think Skip meant anything personal against you with his comment.

Either way, I don't want to see this "skirmish" tarnish the event or anyone's reputation. It's funny that this weekend at the VPO I talked to someone about the movie Cool Hand Luke and now this thread is starting to remind me of the most famous quote from that movie. Two bonus ratings points for whoever knows it ;)

How about the Seinfeld line uttered by Kramer, "I'm out!"

does that mean you're no longer "master of your domain?" :D

Does anybody really care?
As much as some of you would like to make ratings relevant..the fact is they are far too fallible to take seriously.


Obviously, many of your customers care about ratings. Not paying attention to your uploads so they're correct doesn't help their credibility. I help clean them up to make you look better and you torch the effort. The ratings are as accurate as the scores you report.


I see what you mean, chuck... but I still don't think Skip meant anything personal against you with his comment.

Either way, I don't want to see this "skirmish" tarnish the event or anyone's reputation. It's funny that this weekend at the VPO I talked to someone about the movie Cool Hand Luke and now this thread is starting to remind me of the most famous quote from that movie. Two bonus ratings points for whoever knows it ;)



"What we have here is..failure to 'comuncate' "
You're right, Josh, I didn't mean it personally towards anyone. I have a firm belief concerning ratings and just reitterated it on the tourny thread when I saw it was cluttered with ratings talk. I want to hear about the golf that's all.
As for the 48 hours, I wasn't aware of any such immediate turnaround. I'll say it again, I have no formal training on these darn things and you may as well tell me I have to learn to do it in French. I have a real job. If I don't work hard enough for the PDGA to approval then I'm not the man for the job.

VPO was my first Tourney to attend. Really enjoyed watching, went to visit Tourney Center purchase a VPO Disc, Had help with the Discs, went to Skip to pay, we had a few words but he never left the desk....Head down, plugging away....He was focused, focused to provide all the Players with a Top Notch Event. I was impressed and so should everyone else.

I will Play Z-Boaz, Can't Wait

Skip shouldn't have to work this hard volunteering to run this for the players. For something good to come out of this discussion, I would hope others in the area would step up to help him out where needed such as Baldguy's offer for next year.

Skip,

If it's any consolation, I hope to make it possible for you to be able to play the VPO next year. I sent in my Officials Test today, and if I am approved, I was hoping to see about running the Fling, and if all goes well, the 2008 VPO. Maybe we can split weekends and split the duty between am and pros so we both get to play. :)

Skip shouldn't have to work this hard volunteering to run this for the players. For something good to come out of this discussion, I would hope others in the area would step up to help him out where needed such as Baldguy's offer for next year.


while I agree, I think it's important to mention that there was a support staff and they did a great job. I can't remember everyone's name, but DocB and the Hamster were among an all-star cast of (bright-yellow-greenish-shirted) VPO staffers. Even the discboomer showed up to help tally scores.

This is not to say that Skip and Claydog had it easy... Players changing divisions at the last minute, a ton of course rules to go over and over, differing teeboxes for the various divisions, fitting 120 players on a 24-hole course in a smooth-flowing fashion, the encroaching darkness of Daylight Saving's final day, and player concerns regarding all those issues and more just added to the work that the TD duo put in. I haven't even mentioned the raffle tickets, Ace in the Oaks, and the broken keg tap (!!). Needless to say, they all had their hands full. Skip did need to be that busy, and in spite of his own misgivings, he was (and still is) the right man for the job.

Next year the VPO should have even more support and with split wekends it shouldn't be quite as hectic. I know I said it already, but I can't wait for #18 :D

Wow. Any questions I had were from curiosity about the system, not anger towards myself or anyone else. Sorry if anything I said was read wrong.

Point in case being that Skip and Clay did a GREAT job in getting this one back on its feet. And I know it wasnt an easy thing to do. Thank you both again for an awesome weekend!

To all you good people ( including you, Chuck ) :
I've been over worked at my job for two months, now, and after topping it off with the event ( experiences I wouldn't trade for a thousand dollars ( maybe two thousand :o)), I was asked to put in a 600 mi. road trip with two 12 hour days. In the middle of this I started getting sick. Getting to the point, when I saw the comment that I was too stupid to post the scores right it hit me wrong and I blew up. I'm sorry and I'll try to refrain from embarrassing all my good friends anymore. I do appreciate all the nice comments you guys, Claydog and I were more than apprehensive about the outcome of the event and all in all we're happy with the response. Thanks again, Skip

You guys rock!

That was the smoothest ran VPO that I have ever played. A 5 min wait on champ 8, no wait on champ 2, champ 5 was the only back up of the day the last round.

I would like to see this event a split weekend again though just my two cents.

awesome so it just sounded like Flesner volunteered to run AM weekend and skip and claydog can run the pro weekend. way to step up Chris

forever the dreamer, that cware

I can truly feel the love in here :D

i don't know much about ratings, but what i do know is that the first thing i do after any tourney is to log on and look at my round ratings, its a fun way to see if i am improving, it sucks if they arent there right away, but i know some tds are quicker at it than others, and i dont hold it against them one way or the other.. ;)

You'll never get it. :D

Hero: My guess is he needs a raise too.
CK: Hazard duty...




LOL. So true. Angry mobs of DGers that swear their round was at least 1000 rated when it was actually 970ish. :D

You'll never get it. :D



quit stalking my every post, **** you :p

You'll never get it. :D



quit stalking my every post, **** you :p



The jiggly guy as a message board stalker. Kind of scary :eek:

You'll never get it. :D



quit stalking my every post, **** you :p



I like it when you stare. :eek:

while I agree, I think it's important to mention that there was a support staff and they did a great job. I can't remember everyone's name, but DocB and the Hamster were among an all-star cast of (bright-yellow-greenish-shirted) VPO staffers. Even the discboomer showed up to help tally scores.




The sad part is that no one read that and asked themselves "who is hamster?".... :p

while I agree, I think it's important to mention that there was a support staff and they did a great job. I can't remember everyone's name, but DocB and the Hamster were among an all-star cast of (bright-yellow-greenish-shirted) VPO staffers. Even the discboomer showed up to help tally scores.




The sad part is that no one read that and asked themselves "who is hamster?".... :p



<font color="red"> Ha! </font> Is that how you see it? In reality <font color="blue"> everyone knows who </font> <font color="brown"> Hamster, Hammy, LammyHammy, HammySlamminLammy, HamsterHill's TD, etc...</font> <font color="blue"> is! </font> You need no introduction My_Friend.

Hey, you've never told us the story behind the name. Want to explain?

Brian/hamster slammer: well it was late and I was all alone with my fury buddy of the forest......... :D

Brian/hamster slammer: well it was late and I was all alone with my fury buddy of the forest......... :D


...very late and very alone....