Is there not some difference between placing a stake, bet, or wager - and paying an entry fee? I would interpret the "placing a bet" language as meaning you are wagering on the outcome of some contest that you yourself are not participating in (like a horse race, or a baseball/football game). Not saying that is correct - just my interpretation of the language. DG seems to parallel the notion of a "bowling" tournament - pay a fee , play a game, winner gets a prize. Can't say how some FL lawyer would interpret it.

Is there not some difference between placing a stake, bet, or wager - and paying an entry fee? I would interpret the "placing a bet" language as meaning you are wagering on the outcome of some contest that you yourself are not participating in (like a horse race, or a baseball/football game). Not saying that is correct - just my interpretation of the language. DG seems to parallel the notion of a "bowling" tournament - pay a fee , play a game, winner gets a prize. Can't say how some FL lawyer would interpret it.



Thanks Craig. Someone told me see Pete Rose. :eek:

Again, why create an exemption for a specific athletic competition if athletic competitions are not covered by the law in the first place?

In Florida there is no case law interpretting the statute [839.14] in the context of entry fee and payout games. There are seemingly contradictory opinions from the state attorney general stating that it is o.k. if the game is golf but not o.k. if the game is a shooting competition. Apparently the attorney general in 1966 golfed but did not shoot. So the bowling industry did the prudent thing and lobbied for a law settling the issue.

In Illinois some smart guys tried to work around the Illinois gambling statutes by charging an entry fee and having a declared purse for their poker tournament. The players used chips that were not redeemable for cash. There was a fixed payout for first, second and third. These guys soon became the smartest guys on their cell block. People v. Mitchell, 111 Ill.App.3d 1026, 444 N.E.2d 1153, 67 Ill.Dec. 669, Ill.App. 3 Dist., Jan 19, 1983.

The answer always depends upon what state you live in, the language of your statutes and the case law interpretting that language. Besides bets and wagers, the Florida law prohibits stakes. The last time I played disc golf I did not place any bets but I did have some money at stake. We call what's at stake an entry fee. If we were to call our horses "equestrian beasts" could we ignore the horse racing laws and hold equestrian beast speed derbies? :D

Your interpretation of "bowling" [may (and I emphasize, "may") be valid for MI

that is the most begrudged three letters i have ever seen typed.

come on fore, i used the same language and never set them in cement. i'm sure you are a decent upstanding fellow and you certainly are tenacious, i just have to wonder at this point what your motives are? it almost seems as if a few of you here would rejoice if this game we all play was considered gambling. next time i am in your neck of the woods i hope we can enjoy a round or two together, you'll recognize me firstly by the effortless grace with which i throw and secondly by the pomposity of my personality and the vast expanse of my ego. if that doesn't deter you, we'll make it for 5 dollar skins , provided, of course, that we keep it hush hush.

as far as florida is concerned, i really have no clue why they line itemed bowling tournaments the way they did, but i do notice that the pins have to be at the far end of the lane and upright, so does that mean that if a pin were to accidentally fall over before i launch my ball that i am guilty of gambling?

instead of arguing about how disc golf tournaments and bowling tournaments as described in that statute are similar, and reasonable then to extrapolate from that that if we tee off and the basket is at the far end of the hole and upright, and that we are competing under PDGA rules (whether actually sanctioned or not) we would not then be subject to that particular statute, i'm going to ask my brother for his westlaw password (or maybe bruce would be so kind as to set up a temporary account to share with all of us?) and find out why ball golf tournaments are allowed, and happen on a regular and consistent basis in that state.

Presumably, dg tournaments are a "trial or contest of skill ... of human[s]

i concur whole-heartedly with that comment, in spite of reading ill intentions in presumably , however i think we'll end up having an issue with semantics over the use of staking, betting, wagering.

Besides bets and wagers, the Florida law prohibits stakes. The last time I played disc golf I did not place any bets but I did have some money at stake. We call what's at stake an entry fee.

i could also stake a player, for example, i can bankroll or stake a 1000+ rated player to play in a tournament in exchange for a piece of the action, and in that case i would be more likely imo to run afoul of the gambling laws in FL than if i were to stake myself, since i would not be relying on my own learned skills, hand eye coordination, strategies,dexterity, tactics etc.

Your interpretation of "bowling" [may (and I emphasize, "may") be valid for MI

that is the most begrudged three letters i have ever seen typed.

IMO, you have hypothesized, but not demonstrated, that games such as skee-ball are or should be considered "bowling" under the Michigan statute; at the same time, no evidence has been presented that they are not. Until evidence is presented either for or against the hypothesis that such games fit the definition of "bowling" in the MI statute, it is proper to acknowledge the possibility, however remote, that your interpretation is correct, hence, the "may."


s, i just have to wonder at this point what your motives are? it almost seems as if a few of you here would rejoice if this game we all play was considered gambling

For better or for worse, if/as dg moves from a niche sport to the mainstream, the organization and its activities are going to come under increased scrutiny, some of which will not be sympathetic, so the iissue of conforming to federal, state, and local laws will grow in importance. The PDGA has already taken a few basic steps in that direction, e.g., the "clarification" of PDGA policy on 804.05.A(4).

Among the issues to be investigated and addressed is the possibility that the current tournament financial structure could run afoul of gambling legislation in some state. (Tax liability issues are another). Better that the PDGA be proactive and address the issue while we're still flying under the radar, than to hope that no one from outside the sport decides to make an issue of it.

avg_joe, thanks for your very enlightening posts. You bring a wealth of knowledge on a subject most know very little about.

Don't worry about fore, he just has a hard time admitting when he's wrong. :)

IMO, you have hypothesized, but not demonstrated, that games such as skee-ball are or should be considered "bowling" under the Michigan statute; at the same time, no evidence has been presented that they are not. Until evidence is presented either for or against the hypothesis that such games fit the definition of "bowling" in the MI statute, it is proper to acknowledge the possibility, however remote, that your interpretation is correct, hence, the "may."

that's why i said may also , but i really don't consider bowling and its derivatives relevant here anymore so i'm going to try to stick to golf and its derivatives, namely disc golf.

Among the issues to be investigated and addressed is the possibility that the current tournament financial structure could run afoul of gambling legislation in some state. (Tax liability issues are another).

if i were thinking about running a tournament, i would be much more concerned with record keeping and appropriate dissemination of financial information than i would be concerned with the gambling authorities, they won't make gambling stick but they sho as shizzle will make tax evasion.

not only are tax liability issues more relevant, gambling legislation as i've stated previously has the express intent of bringing unaccounted for dollars into tax compliance. gambling legislation bows down to tax legislation. any famous gangsters come to mind?

Mr DanHoward-it's not about right or wrong on either side anymore, he has more stars than i do and that's an insufferable condition for me to be in. :D of course at this point i have to wonder whether or not this whole thing was just a conspiracy intended to increase my post count to the point where i become a roller queen?

Don't worry about fore, he just has a hard time admitting when he's wrong. :)

I have less of a hard time admitting I'm wrong than you do admitting that I'm right. :p

What happens to the $$ Cam won this weekend if his suspension is UPHELD? Which I doubt will happen. Just wondering. thanks

He keeps it. Its the same in any other sport. Take football for example.

A player was suspended for violating the drug policy on the Vikings, he is now under appeal and the case wont be heard until October sometime. He gets to keep playing and he still gets paid.

I agree - nothing would/should happen to any winnings during an appealed suspension. Just curious Chris - but why do you feel the suspension won't be upheld?

cuz he is one of the elite players and needs to play to make a living. They might uphold the probation part but he won't be suspended.

My guess, based on nothing in particular, is that the appeal process is completed before USDGC. Dragging it out past then doesn't make any sense no matter which way it goes.

So I predict the appeal is completed before USDGC, and either the suspension is revoked or else he will be ineligible to play USDGC.

If the suspension is not held, I will do my best to run a non sanctioned BHMO event next year without the PDGA and He will not be playing nor will the PDGA be telling us otherwise. That should make a statement and hit them in the pocketbook for $1000 in fees I would think. What he did is wrong and it is not the first time this has happend. The PDGA needs to make an example out of him since he is not bright enough to learn his lesson. Repeat offender within 365 days! He just got off probation on Dec 31st 2003!

Ben, does that mean Dan isn't running the tourney next year? or is that still up in the air? I'll do my best to attend the Oct. meeting (considering I spaced last week.)

- J

Get a rope, vigilante justice is very mature response when you don't get your way. I'm sure that is what the name sake of the tourney would want... No PDGA, No Cam, Do 2 wrongs make a right? No but 3 rights make a left.....

I hope you never lose your temper and yell at your wife, kids or parents, cuz that stuff is way more impotant to worry about than Cam yelling at a TD... What Cam did is unfortunate but it is somewhat insignificant in the big picture of things...
To all disc golfer's I say "Don't sweat the small stuff, p.s. it's all small stuff...."

If a td yells at a player , will this reap the same consequences. this is a 2 way street , correct... :D

ROG - I wouldn't characterize Ben's reaction as vigilante justice at all. He and others in CBus obviously feel very strongly about what occurred. If they're reaction to the suspension not being upheld is that they would rather not be forced to cater to players who act in this fashion - I say more power to them. The inherent value to the DG community of volunteer staff and TD's far outweighs any perceived value of the talent that may show up. Is Ben's reaction a little extreme? Perhaps. Was the alleged incident extreme? Well I guess the DC will be making that decision shortly.

Will the event suffer if it is not a sanctioned event? Maybe, maybe not. Would that make the PDGA re-evaluate how they approach disciplinary action? Maybe, maybe not - but I'd bet the BOD's discussions on the matter (which from my understanding have been ongoing over the past year or more) would take on some additional urgency for protocol and policy. In the end I think THAT would be a positive for everybody.

To all disc golfer's I say "Don't sweat the small stuff, p.s. it's all small stuff...."



In a way, isn't CT sweating the small stuff exactly what led to his suspension.

People in the fairway. My god, there's people in the fairway, I better go nuts.

Well I guess the DC will be making that decision shortly.



What does the DC have to do with this? I thought that only the Commissioner can hand down a suspension and that the suspension can only be appealed to the BoD?

Sorry Jon,

Didn't mean to imply something that is incorrect. My understanding is that the DC makes a recommendation after reviewing the complaint and appeal which then becomes the basis on which the commissioner makes a final decision. The commissioner may choose not to follow the DC's recommendation - but I would guess it weighs heavily in the process.

dont sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff

dont sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff




Now this guy gives GREAT advice. :D:D:D

Sorry Jon,

Didn't mean to imply something that is incorrect. My understanding is that the DC makes a recommendation after reviewing the complaint and appeal which then becomes the basis on which the commissioner makes a final decision. The commissioner may choose not to follow the DC's recommendation - but I would guess it weighs heavily in the process.



No, I guess I'm sorry. That wasn't an attack, I was curious. I don't know what the DC role is in this. You might be correct, I don't really know. I figured the other Brakel would chime in and explain how it works.

That is correct, the DC recommends action to the comissioner, only the comissioner can take the action. Any appeal is to the BOD, not the comissioner. The downside is that the BOD, having not been involved in the decision to this point, may take a sterner view of the actions than either the DC or comissioner and hand down an even stiffer punishment.

dont sweat the petty stuff, pet the sweaty stuff




Dude that is funny, you just made my day..... :D:) :D

nevermind heard we will hear something around 9/27

========FREE CAM TOD============

Should be an interesting Augusta Classic this weekend considering who all is playing...

========FREE CAM TOD============



Lock him up and throw away the key.
Over three strikes and your/he's out.
For what he has done, to the great people of this sport (that does not mean all Disc Golfer just the great one's) he disserve to be suspended and I applaud the dispensary comity for there action in his suspension.

Is it truth or rumor that Mark Ellis is representing Cam in his appeal?

TRUTH

Dear Dan Busick, members of the Columbus Flying Disc Golf Club, PDGA members and Disc Golfers,

My name is Cameron Todd and I am a disc golfer. As some of you know, I was issued a suspension of playing privileges in PDGA tournaments due to my behavior at the Brent Hambrick Memorial Disc Golf Tournament. I am writing this letter to make a public apology for what I did. I made a public outburst to the Tournament Director, Dan Busick, so I am making my apology public as well.
I was unhappy with certain aspects of the tournament. While turning in my scorecard at tournament central, in front of fellow players, volunteers, spectators and sponsors I voiced my displeasure to Mr. Busick. Whether or not my complaints had any validity it was wrong for me to act as I did. Tournament Directors and staff provide a valuable, often uncompensated service to the players and they deserve to be treated with respect.

I did not know Brent Hambrick. He passed away before I started playing. I have heard great things about him as a player, promoter and person. It was not my intention to sully his memory with anything I said or did. I know that some folks have interpreted what I did as disrespecting his memory. I apologize for anything I did that may have lead to this interpretation.

I called Dan Busick and made a personal apology to him. We had a pretty thorough discussion and I came to understand the negative impact my words had. I made a statement that really hurt Dan�s feelings. It was wrong and once again Mr. Busick I am sorry. By talking about the complaints I had of the tournament I gained appreciation for the job that TD�s do and the challenges they face. I now realize that I was unduly harsh in my opinions . Dan told me that he accepted my apology. I hereby pledge to Dan Busick and disc golfers everywhere to exercise greater restraint in the future.

Sincerely,
Cameron Todd

Now that is one respectable disc golfer in my book.

Now if we could get everyone to take this approach when they make a mistake. Kudos to Cam!

Thank you Cam Todd, thank you for letting the public know. I hope the words you posted and every thing you a Dan talked about stick with you.

Sorry, but I still think the suspension should stick maybe not for 4 months but that's what appeals are for.

The whole thing which bothered me about this incident wasn't the outburst--almost everybody 'loses it' on occasion--but the notion being spread that Cam was unrepentant...evidently that isn't the case. Thanks Cam; I feel quite a bit better now...best of luck!

nicely done!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D

Kudos Cam. That was very honorary of you. I hope that some of "Cam's Bashers" see him in a different light.

suspension or probation ??? will the pdga stand up to the lawyer??? only time will tell. personally I think the pdga will accept the apology and not fight the lawyer and probation it will be. this is just my opinion. I have meet Cam and he is a good guy but this is not the first incident invovling him.

CAM
thank you for coming on the board and taking responsablity for your actions,it takes a big man to swallow his pride and admit he's wrong.
now that we know you know how to use a computer don't be a stranger :)

That was a great thing you just did Cam. Takes alot of guts and class to come on a public message board and admit that you were wrong and out of line. I have alot of respect for you after that. Good luck the rest of this year and i hope your appeal goes well.

Cam "The Pro" Todd

I agree that it was the proper and honorable thing to do, whether of his own volition or via PDGA prodding. This will go a long way towards repairing Mr. Todd's reputation.

The only thing missing was, "AND, I gracefully and humbly accept my due suspension, and will not further drag out the resources and patience of the PDGA. I hope my suspension will serve as a reminder, not only to myself, but players of all levels and locations, that we are accountable for our actions."


Because, as much character as it shows to apologize when you're wrong, it takes a bit more to gracefully accept the ramifications of your actions.

But that's just me talking. Either way, it's a great start and I wish Mr. Todd nothing but happy disc'n.

If the Lizard is representing him the PDGA better watch out.

If the Lizard is representing him the PDGA better watch out.



You know thats right :D

Nicely said.

Maybe the PDGA would consider a reduced suspension for good behavior, like becoming a TD (or assistant) so he knows what it's like to be on the other side.

Just a thought.

i heard Ellis is gettin a bunch of Pro-Ds for his efforts :o

The only thing missing was, "AND, I gracefully and humbly accept my due suspension, and will not further drag out the resources and patience of the PDGA. I hope my suspension will serve as a reminder, not only to myself, but players of all levels and locations, that we are accountable for our actions."


Because, as much character as it shows to apologize when you're wrong, it takes a bit more to gracefully accept the ramifications of your actions.


Hear! Hear!

If this was the first time this happened, and the above apology (if it's really from Cam) was written, then I could understand everyone's need to forgive him. But this isn't the first time. It's not even the second or third time. Rooster is 100% correct in his assessment of what is missing.

I'm reminded of the old saying, "Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me."

That post was the right thing to do and may smooth over things a little. At least it is a step in the right direction. (if it is the real Cam)

What I hope the PDGA does not do is cave in to pressure from the Mr. Ellis. A reduction in the suspension may be done, but if no suspension is in place, then the PDGA just had there credibility bashed again.

I await the PDGA on it's rulling.

The ONLY real issue is will he get to play at USDGC? If USDGC were over it wouldn't be that big of a deal. It could be 1 week or 4 months but if that one week is USDGC week then it would be just as severe as 4 months to Cam.

with or without an apology...punishment is due...

What else is missing????

Dear CT and others in his group....

We are etremely sorry we as a gallery were dumb enough to be in your fairway watching the leader card. As members of the gallery we should have never been in your fairway. We would have NEVER DREAMED of being in the leader cards fairway and excuse our ignorance of being in yours... blah blah blah......

signed the gallery who was oblivious to the fact that others were trying to play the course

You are very, very stupid. Why don't you give us some more specifics on the gallery since you were obviously there. :confused: :mad:

so what is the RULING??

Read this old thread about Cam Todd (http://www.pdga.com/discus/messages/47/7480.html) if you are bored. Start at the top for all the fun.

Everyone is there including Cam in this post:

By cameron todd on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:05 am:

i just wanna say thank you very much for all your support. The harsh judgements are cool and very creative, but maybe God should judge me. I know its tough not knowing, But I still love you all. So maybe for one year lets try and take this sport to a better place and bring it to a new level.

"Cam left team Innova because he felt like they were not treating him like he felt he should be treated. He approached Discraft and has agreed to a deal where they will be creating 2 new signature discs for him. One will be called the "Fit" and the other will be called the "Tantrum". I hear he will be throwing them at every tournament!"


:D :D :D

Read this old thread about Cam Todd (http://www.pdga.com/discus/messages/47/7480.html) if you are bored. Start at the top for all the fun.

Everyone is there including Cam in this post:

By cameron todd on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 11:05 am:

i just wanna say thank you very much for all your support. The harsh judgements are cool and very creative, but maybe God should judge me. I know its tough not knowing, But I still love you all. So maybe for one year lets try and take this sport to a better place and bring it to a new level.

I'll apologize in advance to everyone offended. I read this and immediately thought, "If this is what God's job is like, next time I'll check on the availability of Satan's position before I agree to fill out a vacant term on the board."

it is good to see that mark ellis can still write as eloquently as he did seven years ago....

anyone that has ever spoken with cam knows he is a great guy when he's playing well and not such a nice guy when he's not(like some other golfer posting now who will remain nameless :D)...

BUT anyone who thinks cam wrote this or even THOUGHT this on his own i have some nice beachfront property on the east coast of florida near melbourne(and by beachfront i mean beachfront at the time of cam's suspension,before a few hurricane's passed by :mad:)

i hope one day he'll really feel the way mark ellis has him supposedly feel just so he can play the usdgc this year....

from keith johnson
another td who dealt with his (and his girlfriend at the time)displeasure of things when he wasn't playing well a year after setting the course record and winning the event at the same exact course....
i have spoken with cam lots of times under lots of different circumstances over the years and we have always just let bygones be bygones and said our hello's and exchanged pleasentries....so this post comes only in the spirit of letting people know that are thinking he wrote it on his own to know that it is ok to stand behind someone or something you believe in,but to take it as gospel is rather silly....
just my opinion

Note that the Board has ruled on the appeal. See http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary_actions.php for details

Nez
no longer on the board
& free to post once again!

what a great ruling by the PDGA - I would hope Cam would take advantage of this opportunity and will be able to play

Nez
no longer on the board
& free to post once again!



But did you guys get the schedule done before you left?? :D

Does the note go with the Hambrick, or the probation or both ?

Thanks Hank...I wasn't bored, but I did make it through 300 or so posts, which for the most part seemed so much shorter back then , on the old board. I guess there was quite a bit of "keep it on the front page" activity in days of yore.

"9/27/2004 11/27/2005 12827 Cameron Todd NC 2 Month PDGA Suspension, 2005 Brent Hambrick Memorial Open Suspension, 1 Year Probation1 "

so what does this mean? suspended from the pdga for 2 months, than he is suspended from the Brent Hambrick memorial for 1 year and than on pdga probation for a year? am I reading this correct? so this means no USDGC??

I believe it means that if he is willing to donate his winnings from the USDGC (his next PDGA major) to the Leukemia foundation, the PDGA will waive the 2 mo suspension, leaving him with a 1 yr probation and him not being able to play in the '05 BHMO. If he is not willing, then he won't be able to play in the USDGC or any other PDGA events until Nov 27 or thereabouts, and still be left with 1 yr probation and no '05 BHMO.

so what does this mean? suspended from the pdga for 2 months, than he is suspended from the Brent Hambrick memorial for 1 year and than on pdga probation for a year? am I reading this correct? so this means no USDGC??



It might not matter what the pdga says. :o

Remember Harold posting this with regard the the Aaron Wield case?
If Aaron publicly and sincerely apologies and repays his debt, his USDGC spot would still be available. The spirit of the law, the spirit of the rules, should always take precedence over the letter. It is not for me to hold him to a higher standard than God does. I hope everyone else agrees and encourages Aaron to do what he needs to for his sake and ours.

and this
The USDGC fully supports the PDGA's action. We will uphold the spirit of the PDGA's determination which is to hold Aaron responsiblile for his actions. But like every tournament, the USDGC is an independent entity. If Aaron apologizes and makes resititution, it is certainly within our discretion to allow him to compete.

and this
It seems as though y�all feel I am letting Aaron "get away with it." To the contrary, the preconditions that I prescribed for Aaron to play at the USDGC are more challenging than the PDGA's. Adding a sincere public apology to us, his peers, in addition to restitution will be far more difficult for him than simply paying back the money and avoiding tournaments for a year. But by taking this extra step, an environment of forgiveness will be created that will allow even the most skeptical disc golfer to forgive Aaron.

but he did finally follow up with this
For those of you that are concerned, the USDGC will work in consultation with the PDGA before any decision is made. I apologize for not making this clear earlier. I hope that you will forgive me.

Maybe he has changed his mind by now. ;)

By the way the wording on the suspension page is horrible. It isn't clear at all whether the donation thing applies to the suspension, the 05 BHMO, the probation, any two, or all three. :confused: :confused:

As for the appeal itself, it's a little strange that the sentence could be lightened by an agreement to donate winnings, when the winnings aren't guaranteed in any way.

Whatever. :mad:

seems like a nice way to still get to play in 1 of the top events around. so like Hank said what if he does not cash at the USDGC than what does the PDGA do? another BALL LESS effort by the PDGA to make a STAND. Good Luck Cam at USDGC.

Whatever...... http://www.columbusracing.com/ubb/graemlins/nonono.gif

another BALL LESS effort by the PDGA to make a STAND. Good Luck Cam at USDGC.



I disagree. Seems like a creative way for a fine being levied where there is none specifically outlined in the rules. There of course is a chance of him not cashing at the USDGC (ie injury), but I would guestimate based on past history that this will be a fine worth 7-15% of his annual take. That is not peanuts. It is roughly equivalent to a 2 game suspension in the NFL. I would be very hard hit to have to forgo 5-10% of my annual salary.

So he has to give his winnings at USDGC to the Luekemia Society?

I THINK THAT IS AWESOME! unless Cam tanks. If he finishes in his normal spot the Luekemia Society is looking for a nice donation. I'm just not sure Cam will give it his all out effort if he's not getting to see any of that grip.

COME ON CAM show up and perform, there are alot of kids that have leukemia that could use your donation to help they're cause. I kinda hope he wins for the fact of a $12,500 donation. Maybe they should have added that he needed to go visit a few kids with luekemia at the hospital.

wherever cam finishes, say first place, he is legally obligated to report the earnings on his income tax return regardless of whether he donates the money to a charity.

i'm guessing he doesn't file a Sch A which means he will get squat for a contribution from a deductible financial perspective leaving him holding the bag on potentially thousands in taxable income that he won't get any use out of.

the better he finishes, the more it's gonna sting.

Off the subject:

Nez,
Thanks for your time and effort over the years, you had a tough, and thankless job. You will be missed in the PDGA!

Nez,
Thanks for your time and effort over the years, you had a tough, and thankless job. You will be missed in the PDGA



where is he going?

If the USDGC is a seperate entity from PDGA, then would the winnings donated come from the next PDGA event (like maybe the Augusta classic he just cashed in, or an event after USDGC)? Clarity from the PDGA would be nice. The way it is worded leaves a huge grey area, and one that could be legally argued in several ways. The clarity is an issue I feel the PDGA should address. It seams to just create controversy after controversy. Anybody have something to say about that?

According the the USDGC website the current list of registered players, which was updated today, does not include Cam. There must be some flexibility to the published deadlines (Exempt positions are guaranteed until March 30, 2004) if Cam is even eligible to compete this year.

Clarity from the PDGA would be nice. The way it is worded leaves a huge grey area, and one that could be legally argued in several ways. The clarity is an issue I feel the PDGA should address.



I agree. After rereading it, it says


Notes:
1. The 2 month PDGA suspension will be waived upon agreement by Mr. Todd that he will donate any tournament winnings from his participation in his next PDGA Major event to the Leukemia Foundation.




It seems that in my reading, Cam must agree to the stipulation, then he can enter a C-tier (PDGA event) this weekend, get last place money, donate it, and his suspension is over. Am I missing something?

Nevermind. I see it says "major." I guess a C-tier doesn't qualify. If a major is NT, Worlds, or USDGC, the ruling is as y'all have stated: he must either sit out the USDGC and two months, or play USDGC, donate his winnings, and be a free man. However, it seems like there is some pressure at the USDGC for him. If he did not cash, he would have no winnings to donate and he would remain suspended.

Clarification coming to you from the board meeting, going on as I write, in Augusta . . .

The USDGC is one of several PDGA "Major" events. It is the next Major event coming up. Personally, if Cameron Todd plays in it - and I hope he does - I am confident he will do well.

The web staff had to condense the language of our decision regarding this suspension in order to fit the format of the disciplinary page table, so the wording there is not as clear as the communication to Cameron Todd was.

I cannot publish that "official" wording until we approve the minutes from the current meeting, so here it is in my own personal words:

- The suspension is from now for 2 months;
- It includes suspension also from the 2005 BHMO; and
- It includes one year of probation, dating from the end of the suspension.

OR, if the charitable contribution agreement is signed, it becomes:

- A one year probation beginning now; and
- Suspension from the 2005 BHMO.

P.S. We got a walk around the North Course at the NDGC Sunday afternoon late and it's going to be awesome.

t seems that in my reading, Cam must agree to the stipulation, then he can enter a C-tier (PDGA event) this weekend, get last place money, donate it, and his suspension is over. Am I missing something?



If you re-read the statement
Notes:
1. The 2 month PDGA suspension will be waived upon agreement by Mr. Todd that he will donate any tournament winnings from his participation in his next PDGA Major event to the Leukemia Foundation.


it say his winnings from the next PDGA MAJOR event. A Tiers B Tiers C Tiers are NOT major events. Majors include USDGC Worlds USADGC USWDGC and USMDGC i believe. Nothing else is considered a Major so the ONLY major he could play in before his suspension was over is USDGC. Meaning he would have to donate his USDGC winnings to the charity.

I think that this is a great idea. I think it would show so real class if he came out to USDGC and placed in the top 10 and donated the money. I mean its money he could never have in the first place because of the suspension but atleast he would be able to compete at the greatest tournament of all time and help some people who really need it out.

I mean its money he could never have in the first place because of the suspension but atleast he would be able to compete at the greatest tournament of all time and help some people who really need it out.




which to me seems to be a DOUBLE STANDARD! How many non-touring without a lawyer golfers would have even been given this agreement in the first place??

GREAT POINT SEEWHERE!

Those 3 guys in Texas got 2 months for much lesser crime and they didn't get any offer like that, and only 1 of them was aware of the violation until after the fact

double standards!!!!! are every where!!!

Sounds like a cool idea, but the problem I see is if he plays ****** off and like he doesn't care, it cost him $225 (if he paid his entry), he doesn't have to cash or care for what amount and he is off. The concept is great, but if there is no dollar amount that needs to be donated, it is basically a $225 fine in my opinion. That money can be made up the following weekend at a C tier since the suspension is off? I understand missing the USDGC is a big thing, but one needs to be held accountable for their actions. If Joe Blow did this, it would probably be a suspension with out any donation stipulations I imagine! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I think the fact that Cam has a lawyer just shows how serious this sport is to him and his livelihood, and how guarded one must be when attempting to make disc golf a career. With rules that create controversy rather than clarify discrepencies, the lack of pdga sanctioned officials present when controversy happens, and apparent negativity imposed by certain members of the pdga family through lack of professionalism in handling such topics as Cam's suspension, increases the need for people like Cam to protect themselves, rather than go out and simply play golf. I think the board is doing a much better job in this case as far as imposing a discipline that is appropriate to the specific problem. I do wonder why the pdga board has not considered a form of community service for cases like this. Like through the EDGE program, or simply having someone work at events, or even TD if qualified, so that the person may have the discipline, but also the ability to learn and grow through the consequence. Just my 2 cents.

PS: Terry, I really do appreciate your responses in threads like these. I wish more people in the pdga family would openly talk and contribute to our knowledge base, so maybe the negative views would diminish.

Yeah, why didn't the other guys listed on the "suspended" list get this kind of option?

It's an interesting idea and a terrible precedent. Now you can't suspend anyone for anything, no matter how cut and dried, without a bunch wrangling and BS.

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

<font color="black"> Yeah, why didn't the other guys listed on the "suspended" list get this kind of option?

</font>

cuz they did not have a LAWYER

While Aaron and Cam are both great players, their disciplinary situations are different. I feel the PDGA�s decision for Cam is consistent with my earlier posts. The method of restitution is simply different in Cam�s case.

The player list for the 2004 USDGC was updated to reflect the suspension. (See http://www.usdgc.com/players/.) If Cam fulfills the conditions of the waiver and the suspension is lifted, he will be welcomed back into this year�s Championship. We would work with Cam to structure any Leukemia donation in such a way that the tax consequences would be minimized or eliminated. If Cam does not fulfill the conditions of the waiver, his entry fee will be refunded. My personal hope is that Cam fulfills the conditions. He exhibited some of the finest disc golf composure ever captured on film at last year�s Championship.

Take care,

Harold

PS: Terry, I really do appreciate your responses in threads like these. I wish more people in the pdga family would openly talk and contribute to our knowledge base, so maybe the negative views would diminish.


Usually on these controversial issues the board members agree informally not to get drawn into the message board chit chat. The board functions better as a board if we argue among ourselves within the meeting, reach a consensus, and stick to that consensus.

I think the summary on the disciplinary page is succinct, clear and accurate. There are three aspects to the punishment: a 2 month PDGA suspension commencing immediately, a one year period of probation, and a suspension from the Brent Hambrick in 2005. Cam can remove the two month suspension by agreeing in writing to donate any tournament winnings from his next Major. He is suspended from the Brent Hambrick in 2005 regardless.

He exhibited some of the finest disc golf composure ever captured on film at last year�s Championship.


now if we can get that same composure while playing bad on and off the course!

While the board members are answering questions, what caused the drop from 4 months to 2 months? It seems like he got two gifts on his appeal.

> Now you can't suspend anyone for anything,
> no matter how cut and dried, without a bunch
> wrangling and BS.

The rules refer to an appeal process that all members have access to if they receive disciplinary action like a suspension:

Rule 804.05 C (in part)
"C. A player in violation of any section under 804.05 A is also subject to suspension from the PDGA Tour. Suspension from the PDGA Tour may only be assigned by the PDGA Commissioner. A player may appeal his or her suspension to the PDGA Board of Directors."

So, you never could suspend someone without the option that that they might choose to appeal, which in this instance happened.

I just hope if he does accept the waiver and plays, that he doesn't finish about 45th. Then the Luekemia Society and the final PDGA verdict gets shafted.

If he finishes in the top 10 it's a great deal.

But knowing Cam, I'm not sure the motivation will be there. Cuz, at USDGC, the check fuels the engine that drives the desire. The BENJAMINS is the almighty carrot!

> what caused the drop from 4 months to 2 months?

This is precisely the kind of question that I do not believe BoD members should answer in this kind of forum. It's an invitation to an argument/discussion which we as your elected representatives have already been through dozens of iterations of - hundreds of emails, many phone calls, and intense and energetic face to face discussions.

Those of us who were voting members of the subgroup (two BoD members were not part of this final decision because of their involvement in the earlier stages of the disciplinary process) came in with diverse opinions and ideas and reached what we believe is an equitable resolution for everyone involved.

Note that if Cameron Todd were to agree to the charitable contribution and he repeats last year's performance, he would be giving up - and the Leukemia Foundation, favorite charity of the BHMO tournament director, would be gaining - $2,625.

what caused the drop from 4 months to 2 months?




I think its called having a LAWYER

Fair enough Terry. It just seems odd that there would be a need to drop the length of the suspension. I mean, if the agreement nullifies the suspension, why reduce the suspension?

Side note: I bet an unnamed poster that the PDGA would suspend Cam Todd. Do I win the bet? I think I'll call it a push, but if the poster pays, I'll donate it to charity. :)

I think its called having a LAWYER



Seewhere, please! Yes, that probably had something to do with it, but if in the same spot... wouldn't you too? You would be foolish not to enlist proper representation in a matter where your livelihood is at risk. Get real, would ya? :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I can only hope that if I get suspended from the PDGA-WRONG
That all I have to do is pay $225 and I'm free and clear, what a great decision!?

PDGA-WRONG talking here

Here you go Cam give the USDGC $225 and play like ***** and we will wave the 2 month suspension that was 4 months, have fun winning it back at any C-tear that you play from now on, Oh and while we're at it you know that two year probation make it a year.

P.S. pretty please don't loss your temper and tell off any of are great (snicker) TD�s that give their time willingly to run any of the tournament that we, as, the PDGA-WRONG benefit from, the same tournaments that help found this organization, but, if you do it will be $300 next time.

Note that if Cameron Todd were to agree to the charitable contribution and he repeats last year's performance, he would be giving up - and the Leukemia Foundation, favorite charity of the BHMO tournament director, would be gaining - $2,625.


I think that this is an awesome idea, but will he be as focused knowing that he isn't playing for any money for himself?

This guy is the John Gotti of disc golf,

2002 USDGC Blatantly cheated and got away with it
2003 the South Bend incendent
2003 Worlds tearing up his scorecard
2004 BHMO
and I could tell you a dozen more,

All decent reasons to get suspended but he's like TEFLON no charges ever stick to him.

In Nez's resignation letter it mentioned something about his personal life, maybe Nez woke up with a severed horse's head in his bed and that's why he resigned.

Znash do you really think that a player of Cams caliber will show up at USDGC and tank just because he has to donate his winnings to charity. I think not. That would be just about the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

1. It would affect your rating
2. People would think even less or you then they already do
3. It would be a complete waste of time
4. If he shows up and plays well he will get to donate more and people will look upon him with a little more respect then they do at the moment because he actually made the effort to rectify the situation.
5. Finishing high in the USDGC is a great accompliment whether you are getting paid for it or donating the money to charity.
6. The more he donates the more he can write off on his TAXES :D

I think he will show up and give it his best possible effort at the time and then donate whatever he most likey will win.

cb I beleive you are correct since playing will REMOVE his SUSPENSION and REDUCE his PROBATION by a YEAR!! He would be a FOOL to not PLAY .

Znash do you really think that a player of Cams caliber will show up at USDGC and tank just because he has to donate his winnings to charity. I think not. That would be just about the dumbest thing you could possibly do.


It's not about Cam's caliber it's about his character. He has proven that when the card are opposed to him, he does not play well or he gets upset and throws a temper tantrum. So, do I think he will try his best? NO!!!!!
It does not matter if he plays well or not he is still getting off with a $225 fine instead of a 2 month suspension, and he also gets the chance of winning some money so he can right it off as a tax brake. How is this punishment for the crimes he has committed?
P.S. cbdiscpimp I bet in your world the glass is always half full.

P.S. cbdiscpimp I bet in your world the glass is always half full.



Whats that supposed to mean??? Are you trying to take a shot at me now???

So you dont think that losing a huge chunk of your yearly income is not enough punishment for yelling at someone AFTER a tournament is OVER. Im not at all defending what he did. It was completely out of line and should have been handled differently but if they project him to win 2500 dollars and he has to pay 225 to get into USDGC then i would say that 2725 is a pretty huge fine for what he did.

I also love home people only complain about the REALLY good pros. No one complains about the joe shmo who ******* and complains and throws fits and throws bags and minis and chairs and what not they only complain and punish the top pros for it.

P.S. cbdiscpimp I bet in your world the glass is always half full.



Whats that supposed to mean??? Are you trying to take a shot at me now???




It means you look on the sunny side of life.

cb, I've talked to a lot of people that thought just the opposite. Upthread, Nina's lists a number of incidents.

If this was just Joe Schmo, he would probably be gone and noone would be on the BBS decrying the injustice of it all.

I still want to know, if Cam plays USDGC and wins nothing, is the agreement void?

One should also remember that CT may still qualify for sponsor bonus and NT tour bonus based on his USDGC finish if he chooses to play. Also note that his 1yr probation and his suspension from '05 BHMO are not affected by whether he chooses to play or not play in the USDGC.

IMO, this is a creative effort by the BOD that upholds the original spirit and severity of the suspension. I personally hope CT chooses to play...

Nina, thanks for the props. . . I chose to leave a bit early because I am swamped with work through the end of the year, and it was unfair to the BOD to not be able to contribute in the manner I am used to. I am focusing my PDGA volunteer efforts in the coming year(s) to coordinating the expansion of disc golf around the world, and returning to play the game I've missed over the past couple years.

The PDGA has gratiously allowed me to play the USDGC under their exemption, and I have gladly accepted. See ya'll in Rock Hill in a couple weeks . . .

It means you look on the sunny side of life.



Man i wish that was true. If i could do that maybe i would become a better golfer.

if CT enters the USDGC, no matter where he places, his 4 mo. suspension is lifted (as it was explained to me). His probation and suspension from '05 BHMO stand no matter what

I still want to know, if Cam plays USDGC and wins nothing, is the agreement void?



Thats a great question. One of which i would like to know the answer to as well

and he also gets the chance of winning some money so he can right it off as a tax brake. How is this punishment for the crimes he has committed?

if he ends up preparing his tax return and it shows a net tax benefit to him, he will need more than mark ellis to get him out of it.

whoops . . .2 mo suspension is lifted . . .

IMO, this is a creative effort by the BOD that upholds the original spirit and severity of the suspension.



Dave, I'll certainly give it props for creativity. It is a nice piece of work. However, it is difficult to maintain it upholds the severity of the original suspension: two months vs. four months or money earned at all non major events in the 4 month period vs NADA. I have no real opinion on this matter, but it is a VERY SWEET deal for Cam Todd.

I'm saying that it looks like you see Cam as a positive person in saying "I think he will show up and give it his best possible effort at the time and then donate whatever he most likely will win." which looks to me like you see the best in people and not all of the person. Maybe you only see the good in Cam and not the bad in him. I will have to admit that it is hard to see the bad in people from a glance and I have a hard time seeing past the good nature of most people. I at lest try to give them a fair shake, but I have seen the bad in Cam and I was at the BHMO in 2004 when Cam had his little fit, and I walked around with his group in the final round as you would know if you have read the BHMO thread. I am also the person that many people have pulled info from to attack or defend Cam on this thread. Ether way I look at it Cam has to learn how to control is anger or emotions on the course. For a man that makes his living playing disc golf he should want the sport to grow and should treat the people that help it to grow be it people watching all the way up to TD's with a little more respect.
If you treat people with respect in an argument even if you�re going to loss they normally will think better of you the next time.

I hear you Znash. I was also at the 2004 BHMO. I believe i played in a group with you in the first round of that tournament, but i did not witness this outburst that Cam had. You are right about one thing though. I do look at the good side of people. I dont really judge anyone untill they rub me the wrong way or do something in front of me that i do not like. As i said before i have never witnessed any of Cams outburst so i cannot judge his bad side. I have talked to him a few times and he has been nothing but nice and respectful to me so i think hes a good guy. I have not been on both sides of this so i cant tell you how i really feel about the situation i can only speak about what i have heard and what is happening now.

I just think its a great idea that if he does cash at USDGC that it will go to the charity. That is the only good thing that can come out of this whole situation. So i hope he does the right thing and plays and plays to his best and wins some money for that charity and puts this whole thing behind him.

Your right. I hope that the donation ideal was his and that he truly wants to help out the children of the leukemia foundation. If this is true and he does perform at his best then he may turn me and some of the other�s from or negative views of him, but if he does not give his best effort then people may look at him harsher than ever before.
I still think a $225 fine is a little small for a 2 month suspension.

"I just think it�s a great idea that if he [Mr. Todd] does cash at USDGC that it will go to the charity. That is the only good thing that can come out of this whole situation."

And from Mr. Todd
" I hereby pledge to Dan Busick and disc golfers everywhere to exercise greater restraint in the future."

Sincerely,
Cameron Todd

Maybe another good thing would be that other players, both notable and anonymous , will hesitate before displaying actions they/we might later regret.
I wish us all good luck!
Time will tell.

I hope he wins......Remember Discraft will pay him bonuses........he will make all his money back and then some. Even when he donates his winnings. I hpoe he has to donate 10,000 to charity(In Brent Hambrick's Name not his own). I have never heard more Discraft teammates complain about a guy and Innova Team members also. Discraft is under the impression his bad rep is only on the Message board here. Wake up, what are the top players going to tell you? They don't want to be involved! They have the most at stake because they have to deal with him every tournament! Why would they stick their neck out? All of us can't be wrong about him I'm sorry!


Cam if you read this which I doubt, but maybe someone will forward it to you or print it out for you to read. I am not an unforgiving person, I have made mistakes too, but I will only forgive you when I see you demonstrate good social skills for a loooooong time, years. Your antics have gone on long enough and many, many people on tour who you think like you don't because of the way you act! Look around, I don't see many people helping you through this.........I see and hear many that want you gone FOREVER! Think about it! People are just itching to see you blow up again and guess what, it will be reported and you WILL go through this again, if you do not stop! EVERYONE is watching you! We the players and volunteers are going to put a stop to it I promise.

Dear PDGA Board--

This decision sucks. To make a graphical analogy, it's like a neutered cat. As a member of the PDGA, I�m embarrassed by the lack of fortitude displayed by the board that supposedly represents us.

The only way that this complete buckling under to Cam Todd can be digested is if one last footnote is added: The next time Mr. Todd throws another tantrum, demeans or berates another player, TD, or official, then he will be given a lifetime ban from ever competing in another sanctioned PDGA event.

If Cam was truly serious about and concerned with making a lively hood out of disc golf, then you would think that he would act like it. His behavior, if replicated in any office in America, would have his [*****] out the door�without an appeal or a slap on the wrist. The same should apply in this, his chosen �office�.

Some of you PDGA members need to relax, many of you are hoping Cam screws up again, what is wrong with you people? Wishing ill of someone that strongly, you need more help than Cam! That type of anger building inside, will only result in BAD KARMA to YOU on the course of life &amp; DG.

Peace out

7 days til the Friz!

Yeah, why didn't the other guys listed on the "suspended" list get this kind of option?


Everything that has ever happened, happened for a first time once. Did any of the other guys appeal? Did they have a lawyer? Were there lawyers on the board at the time? Were any of those guys being punished for similar misconduct?

Every case is unique. This maybe more so.

hey Mccaine I believe Cam got what he wanted out of this deal so you LOST the BET :Dand once he plays USDGC no SUSPENSION just Like I told you the PDGA would do.

Putting the 'donate your Major winnings to charity' clause in the suspension was certainly creative, and appears to have been based on good intentions, but it should have be thought through further. All CT has to do is show up and his suspension is lifted? There is no clause that says it only gets lifted if he cashes. Assuming he will place as high as he did last year is just that, an assumption. This is a guy that plays DG for money. He knows the better he plays, the more money he makes. If the allure of cash is not there, it's only human nature to play at a sub-standard level. Especially if he knows that as soon as that weekend is over, it's business as usual.

Of course, he is in a tough spot as well. If he plays and does poorly, everyone will say he tanked just to get the suspension lifted. If he busts his [*****] and does well, he'll get nothing for it.

If he's smart he will just write a check to the charity and take 2 months off. I'd certainly respect him for that.

Harold Duvall wrote:

He exhibited some of the finest disc golf composure ever captured on film at last year�s Championship.



I saw it too. He took 4 putts plus an OB stroke while putting on one hole, and he never even made a peep. :eek:

That's the problem with Cam, the CAMERA WAS ROLLING. If the camera weren't there, I hate to guess what would have happened. He needs to display that composure at all times. Not just when there is a camera. Not just when he is winning.

Of course, he is in a tough spot as well. If he plays and does poorly, everyone will say he tanked just to get the suspension lifted. If he busts his [*****] and does well, he'll get nothing for it.



He wouldnt get ANTHING if he just sat at home either. No USDGC playing, no sponsor bonus, no NOTHING. Then he could continue to do that for 2 months. This way he gets to play, will probably end up donating a sizeable amout of money to the charity. Then he can play in the last few A Tiers on the schedule if he so chooses. I would say that is A LOT more then nothing for showing up and busting your ACE at the biggest tournament of the year which if im not mistaken he doesnt pay his entry fee to anyway.

Steve, you say 'probably donate a sizable amount of money to charity', but what is the basis for that? Yes, he is a good golfer, but that is when cash is on the line for him. In this case it's not. He "might" do well and cash, or he might tank and finish out of the cash. If that happens, then he will effectively have nothing but a year of probation to show for his actions.

The disciplinary committee got it right, it's too bad their recommendation didn't hold up.

Cam Todd has notified the Board of Directors of his decision to accept the waiver of suspension. The other parts of the disciplanary action will remain in effect. The pdga.com disciplanary actions page has been updated:

PDGA Disciplinary Actions (http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary_actions.php)

-Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner

pay up Mccaine!!! :D

GREAT POINT SEEWHERE!

Those 3 guys in Texas got 2 months for much lesser crime and they didn't get any offer like that, and only 1 of them was aware of the violation until after the fact



Actually,

The crime/offence these three participated in was much worse than Cam's. Don't get me wrong, Cam sounds like he acted like the rear-end of a horse, but these guys put themselves in a position to win money (one actually did). When you are talking about taking an action that can effect whether you finish in the money you have a huge problem. We keep forgetting that we are playing for money with a payout system that is viewed in some states as akin to gambling. Any time that happens you have to be extremely careful about how you act. So comparing any tantrum/outburst with what those guys did is a bad comparison. Its like saying that the guys in a barroom fight should be compared to the guys that stole money out of the till. I understand completely that the three Texas guys did not understand (think about) the implications of what they were doing but that doesn't make it O.K. I also understand that those three guys are great guys, it still doesn�t make it O.K. or better than Cam�s outbursts.

Every time the PDGA/BOD/Disciplinary Committee hands out one of their punishments they get trashed. One side hits them high, and one side hits them low. The drubbing goes on for about 2 weeks to a month and then someone from the Disciplinary Committee or the BOD comes on and tells us the logic of what they did and everyone goes �Oh!� The problem I have with this is that with a little thought, and a presence at the incident, we can see that the Committee acted very carefully and handed out an appropriate punishment.

All of the commentary that Cam should or should not be spanked is mostly based on speculation. I doubt that anyone who posts on this topic has been present at every one of his outbursts or misdeeds. The reason that the Disciplinary Committee is usually (always) right is that they have the resources to communicate with all the affected parties and then make an informed decision. Their initial punishment, and the subsequent modification weren't just based on gathering all the information and talking to all parties but also on reflection and analysis, something that no one here can do, not having the data. Furthermore the Committee is just that, a committee - one that thought through and then argued out the possibilities before making a judgment. Given that two years ago there was great angst over the lack of action by the PDGA compared with the careful deliberations and actions being taken now, I have to conclude that it doesn't really matter what the PDGA does, they're going to get condemned. No wonder Nez got out...

This doesn't mean that I don't think the body of the PDGA shouldn't comment, but it does mean that I think we need to consider what is happening fully before we decide that the leadership has acted inappropriately.

WHAT A JOKE! Can't believe you discipline guys have NO NUTS! :mad:

I expect Cam to go to Rock Hill very focused and dedicated, and to do well. I think his winnings will be large, and that while donating them will be a big financial loss, he will do his best to make that donation as large as possible.

I hope that he and all the other top players will view this as an opportunity to get beyond past incidents of all sorts, involving many players and often without Cam involved, and play the USDGC with respect for each other.

Great Job PDGA BOD & Disciplinary Committee on a difficult and clearly thankless job.

The drubbing goes on for about 2 weeks to a month and then someone from the Disciplinary Committee or the BOD comes on and tells us the logic of what they did and everyone goes �Oh!� The problem I have with this is that with a little thought, and a presence at the incident, we can see that the Committee acted very carefully and handed out an appropriate punishment.



I think many would agree that the COMMITTEE did hand out an appropriate punishment. The fact that the committee's punishment has been drastically reduced upon appeal is the point of discussion now.

A side note on the whole process: I have few strong thoughts on his ultimate punishment. I mean, the loss of income from the USDGC (in all likelihood) is certainly significant. Maybe that unknown loss fits the crime, maybe it does not. You can argue convincingly either way.

My problem is that the PDGA is sending mixed signals again. Forget the perception of preferential treatment, I'm talking about the huge disparity between the committee and the appeal.

I understand and support the need for an appeal process. However, the two parties are sending very different signals. One group says four months of suspension including the USDGC; the other says a USDGC suspension is enough. I mean, the facts are the same for both parties, or at least it is hard for me to imagine that they changed during the period. Why the huge disparity?

Once again, the PDGA should try to make this process as cookie cutter as possible, thereby reducing the legitimate criticisms. They investigate the allegation and fit it into a well understood (and supported) matrix of penalties. If everything is known upfront and the facts are gathered and assessed well, then it is cut and dried. No argument from an attorney should be persuasive and the appeal person really does not need to do much work at all because it has already been done.

Dan, He still has sponsor bonuses and he is getting to play in the USDGC when they could have just said NOPE NO WAY NO HOW your not playing in USDGC. I would say just getting to play AT ALL would be reason enough to try and play well wouldnt you. I mean whats the point in showing up if your not going to try and win???

I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens

It's hard to comment on this whole situation, and yet it's hard not to.

I remain hopeful that Cam will change a little - so that he can find some form of satisfaction in the game, even when he doesn't play to his expectations. We all face this challenge, regardless of our skill level. Perhaps it's harder for players who reach a certain level - but I don't think so. I've played with Cam plenty of times - and I've been witness to the good side and the not so good. I genuinely like Cam - think he's a pretty decent guy. He is in many ways just like the rest of us - changing behavior patterns or attitudes towards certain things has to come from within.

I guess the one thing that leaves me wondering about this whole process has to do with the apparent "plea bargain" that was reached. If in fact Mark Ellis was either "retained", or otherwise served to "broker" what ended up being the punishment for this incident - AND he sits on the BOD - I find that to be a huge conflict of interest. Not only would it be thoroughly inappropriate and unethical, but it sets a terrible precedent for future disciplinary actions. This is all conjecture though - as no details have been made public about Mark's role in this (he is still on the BOD isn't he?). It's all just a jumble of impressions; the whole "ooh a lawyer is involved - is he threatening to sue?, does the org. need to worry about spending big $$ in court to defend their policies?" Not knowing how it all went down leaves these sorts of impressions - and makes the reduction in recommended punishment appear coerced. That's the only piece of all this that hints of impropriety.

Otherwise - it seems at least a very creative approach to a difficult situation.

Craig, Marc Ellis hasn't been on the BoD since about October 2001, about three years ago. It's possible that financial director Steve Wertz was on the board at the same time Marc was, but I wasn't, and I don't think that any of the other current members were either.

I was one of the five board members involved in the discussion where we finally set the modified disciplinary action. I did not even speak once with Marc about the situation during the run-up to the meeting. There was no element of plea bargaining involved in our decision. We came up with it during a very intense one and a half hour face to face discussion after weeks information collection and analysis, plus a review of possible actions. Our goal was a result that met the PDGA's needs for discplinary action but was fair and just in light of the factual circumstances.

Our goal was a result that met the PDGA's needs for discplinary action but was fair and just in light of the factual circumstances.



thanks Terry can we get more info on what the PDGA NEEDS are?

Thanks for the clarification Terry,

I meant no disrespect to any parties that were involved - only commenting on perceptions. Glad to hear it did not happen in that way.

CG

I expect Cam to go to Rock Hill very focused and dedicated, and to do well. I think his winnings will be large, and that while donating them will be a big financial loss, he will do his best to make that donation as large as possible.

I am not particularly a fan of Cam, having witnessed both the "good" Cam and the "bad" Cam, sometimes during the same tournament, during the same round, but also I expect him to bring his A-game to Rock Hill and to compete to the best of his ability. Whatever one may think of Cam and his demeanor on or off the course, I have never seen him, nor have I ever heard even his critics accuse him of, not playing to win; rather, what I typically hear is that he takes the game TOO seriously.

That being said, I think that the BOD's decision�though perhaps the best that could be made given the competing interests and the circumstances�is a bad decision on several levels, not the least of which is that it puts Cam in a no-win situation.

For one thing, the responses so far on the msg board illustrate that Cam's supporters will give him perhaps more credit than he is due for agreeing to donate his potential winnings to the Leukemia Society (overloking the fact that the donation is mandatory not voluntary), irrespective of how well or how poorly he finishes, while his detractors will give him virtually no credit, even if the "donation" turns out to be several thousand dollars, because it serves Cam's larger financial interest to accept the "punishment." (For example, by accepting the "fine," Cam is eligible to compete in the Old Dominion Showdown (A-tier) this weekend and the Fall Finale (A-tier) in Charlotte the weekend before the USDGC: tournaments in which he would otherwise be ineligible to compete.)

Suppose on Day One of the USDGC, Cam tweaks a knee or an ankle badly enough that he physically can't continue and has to withdraw, but stays around (after all, he is based out of Charlotte these days, and Discraft may want him to stick around for other reasons), and by Sat or Sun is able to walk around without obvious difficulty or discomfort? Given the fact that some are already questioning whether Cam will be motivated enough to perform to the best of his ability, some (many?), will at least wonder whether or not he faked the injury and bailed on the tournament.

So Cam has nothing to gain and everything to lose: he gets no credit from his detractors if he does well, and will fall under suspicion if he doesn't. It's a "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" proposition.

Additionally, quite apart from the question of whether or not Cam's entry fee is paid by Discraft or an out-of-pocket expense (and therefore, in a real sense, a "fine"), the requirement that Cam donate his "winnings" raises several tricky issues, e.g., does Cam get to keep whatever performance bonuses he earns or are they included in the "winnings" that are to be donated to the Leukemia Society�after all, he can't "earn" performance bonuses unless he competes and does well, and he can't compete if he's suspended, so it is at least arguable that any performance bonuses are "winnings" and should be included in the "fine"? What happens to the portion of monies won in the form the season-ending NT bonus based on points earned at the USDGC? (If Cam leapfrogs Barry in the NT points standing based on the USDGC and finishes in first place, does the $400 difference in NT bonus money between first and second place go to Cam or to the Leukemia Society?)

Additionally, there is the issue of precedent. Like it or not, there is at least a perception that, in the past, the BOD has coddled various high profile players or played favorites, so the decision to waive the suspension of a high profile player in exchange for a "donation" creates the expectation that, in principle, every suspended player should be offered the same "deal."

Given that precedent, what happens when Joe_MPO appeals his suspension and agrees to donate his winnings from the next A-tier he competes in to a designated charity in exchange for a waiver of his suspension, and never competes in another A-tier but continues to compete and cash in B-, C-, R, and X-tiers? (Would Joe_MPO be able to compete in a Major and keep his winnings, since it's not an A-tier?)

[Note: I don't expect these questions to be answered here, nor do I think that they should be. Perhaps some, if not all, of them have already been discussed and resolved by the BOD. I raise them simply because I believe that the decision creates more problems going forward than it solves, that, in the short term at least, it undermines the belief that the PDGA is serious about discipline, and that it does virtually nothing to repair, and may actually harm, Cam's image in the larger disc golf community.]

how can you say no win situation and than follow it up with he is NOT SUSPENDED and will be able to play in not 1 but 2 A-tiers when he should be suspended. Sounds like HE WON to me. IMHO

Well, I am not going to criticize the BOD on the issue but I will bring up another subject close to the suspension of Cam.

I do not know him personnally, I was able to shake the guys hand at Worlds in Houston on one hole then watch him blow up a couple of holes later. I also saw his girlfriend blow up on a hole after missing a putt and blaming it on the basket, that was really funny if you know what I mean.

Here is a thought, but I don't think it will happen but a thought. How does Cam make his living?....not by his winnings on tour but, by his sponsorship. What would happen if his sponsor stepped up and said, "Now Cam, you know you shouldn't throw those 'hissy fits' during a tournament. Since there is so much public outrage at your tantrums we are going to start fining you also, and if you don't stop and get suspended again then we are going to cut our ties with you."

What is Cam going to do?...Of course he would clean up his act, who would sponsor him then.....Wham-O?

Maybe if enough public pressure is put onto his sponsor now, maybe they would step up and stop him and his tantrums. Because face it, he not only gives himself a black eye, he also gives DISCRAFT a black eye.

Just my two cents and my only two cents.

how can you say no win situation and than follow it up with he is NOT SUSPENDED and will be able to play in not 1 but 2 A-tiers when he should be suspended. Sounds like HE WON to me. IMHO

Thank you for illustrating my point, Seewhere. That is exactly the sort of reaction I was alluding to.

No matter how much Cam ends up donating to the Leukemia Society, there will be those who will be upset because he "got over" on the PDGA and will resent him even more for that when, IMO, their anger�assuming anyone has a right to be angry�should instead be directed toward the BOD for offering an alternative to suspension, rather than toward Cam for taking the alternative.

Fore I have nothing againist Cam and you are exactly correct at that the fact the PDGA ROLLED OVER is what upsets me since they are the back bone on how we grow as a sport. I really wonder how all this would have played out if 1. no big name player, 2. he had no lawyer. Hell I hope he wins both A tiers and the USDGC and than we will see who gets the last LAUGH /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Cam won the appeal. (IMHO)

Excellent post! The sponsor has much more control over this problem than does the PDGA. If a problem exists with an "employee" of a company, the company needs to be advised.
Attitude and the actions of a Discraft sponsored player carries over to the perception of Discraft itself and should be handled in-house. CT is not the ONLY sponsored player with an attitude problem! (there are a few that come to mind) If a person decides to become a "celebrity", it carries a responsibility to represent yourself in a positive manner at all times when you appear in public.

If you disagree with the actions of CT, e-mail your concerns directly to Discraft, just as you would in other instances of behavior in other business matters. Discraft must protect it's image and I'm sure this will be handled in an appropriate manner. Imagine the outcome if those who have posted on this thread also sent comments to Discraft! Every company has a disciplinary policy and I'm sure it will follow procedure.

Click on the link below and register your comments with Discraft.

Discraft (http://www.discraft.com/Web%20Pages/Main.html)

That won't work, or at least it hasn't yet. Here is a quote from one of my teammate's, and Cam's teammate's..... Ben Botte(who happens to be one of the most likable guys i've met)...............


I have never heard more Discraft teammates complain about a guy and Innova Team members also. Discraft is under the impression his bad rep is only on the Message board here. Wake up, what are the top players going to tell you? They don't want to be involved! They have the most at stake because they have to deal with him every tournament! Why would they stick their neck out? All of us can't be wrong about him I'm sorry!




Bottom line is that both companies that he's played for, Innova, and Discraft, have been notified. Neither of them to my knowledge did anything about the problem(s).

I'm not a Cam "hater". In fact, i like the guy. I get to see him 3 or 4 times a year, we get to throw a few rounds together(if i'm playing well /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif), and then he's off to the next event. I've never seen one of his outbreaks.

On the other hand, the McCoy's, the Sinclair's, and the Schultz's, who are out there week in and week out obviously see Cam in a different light.

What Cam did at the BHMO was wrong, no doubt. He's apologized, and has been given an altamatum. Is the PDGA's altamatum worthy?

Excellent post! The sponsor has much more control over this problem than does the PDGA. If a problem exists with an "employee" of a company, the company needs to be advised.
Attitude and the actions of a Discraft sponsored player carries over to the perception of Discraft itself and should be handled in-house. CT is not the ONLY sponsored player with an attitude problem! (there are a few that come to mind) If a person decides to become a "celebrity", it carries a responsibility to represent yourself in a positive manner at all times when you appear in public.

If you disagree with the actions of CT, e-mail your concerns directly to Discraft, just as you would in other instances of behavior in other business matters. Discraft must protect it's image and I'm sure this will be handled in an appropriate manner. Imagine the outcome if those who have posted on this thread also sent comments to Discraft! Every company has a disciplinary policy and I'm sure it will follow procedure.

Click on the link below and register your comments with Discraft.

Discraft (http://www.discraft.com/Web%20Pages/Main.html)



Sorry to disappoint but Discraft's take on the whole thing is "nothing he did, warranted ANY disciplinary action!" They claim it all was personal. I guess what should have been done was to DQ him right then and there! We didn't understand that you can DQ someone even after you complete your last hole. That mistake will NEVER be made again! That was Discrafts report to the PDGA. Don't waste your time!

Who cares what Cam did or what he will do? He will do what ever he wants when he wants, and he is the only one that can change that. All of you who claim to know him and all of you who chose to gloss the issue over saying all the things that you think are true don't matter one bit.

What matters here is that one of the biggest downfalls of this whole group and organization is this, not one of us wants to stand and face the music. Plenty of us want to act like we can face the music, but when the horn blows we run and hide. We all want it to be nice and fun and present the illusion that everything is fine. Well everything is not fine and it is not a rosy picture.

Very few of us have the guts to stand up to Cam or anyone else who crosses the line. This is the root of the problem. People have complained about Cam and others in the parking lot for years, but only one or two of us have actually taken steps toward action. All of the rest have gone on with the usual "I don't want to be a richard and call him on it". Has anyone realized who is being the richard yet? If you break the rules or bend them or push them then who is the richard?

The things going on right now are growth pains and the only to get over growth pains is to grow. What has happened with this issue is not growth, it is running and hiding from the reality of the situation at hand. The precedent here is act how you want then act like you care and you will make an effort to change and all is forgiven. We all know there will be little or no effort to change in this case.

Now I will point out the thing that everyone is unwilling to face, the lack of discipline here is endorsing the actions that led to the situation. The lack of backbone and the giving in to the "big name player" sets the wrong precedent and from here anything the DC and the BOD does can be challenged and changed with some pressure.

These lessons are for us to learn from. If we follow the lead here then we can keep sweeping things under the carpet and wishing and dreaming about when "our ship comes in". The truth of the matter is that we don't even have a doc for a row boat let alone a port for the ship. If the big support comes along and witnesses how we have handled our business, or have not handled our business as is the case here the boat will keep on floating by. If you want to be the captain of the ship or even a part of the crew that means that you have to do the entire job not just the fun parts. I won't even imply that it will be easy, but doing the job right will pay off bigger in the end than saving face, pain, and stress right now.

Fore I have nothing againist Cam and you are exactly correct at that the fact the PDGA ROLLED OVER is what upsets me since they are the back bone on how we grow as a sport. I really wonder how all this would have played out if 1. no big name player, 2. he had no lawyer.

The BOD rolled over on this one, IMO as well. Whether or not it was because Cam is a high profile player, and whether or not having Mark Ellis, as opposed to John Q. Not-a-PDGA-Member-Much-Less-Served-on-the-BOD lawyer, represent him had anything to do with the outcome, the fact is that the decision simply strengthens the apparently widely held perception that the PDGA coddles high profile players ("apparently," because it is almost universally held among dg'ers of my acquaintence: admittedly, a very small minority of dg'ers)�a perception that will only be strengthened if Joe_LocalDiscGolfer is suspended for any cause and is not offered the same "get out of jail free" card.

[BTW, the decision does rather cast the Levying Fines? (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=231942&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1) thread in a different light. Can't help but wonder, given the timing (first post: 09/02/04), whether it wasn't floated, at least in part, as a trial balloon to try to gauge what the reaction would be if they offered the deal to Cam.]

As I opined earlier, the decision sets a bad precedent. Right now, if I were Herm_the_Lefty, I'd be renewing my PDGA membership, with the express intention of getting suspended, because if the PDGA were to suspend me and didn't offer me the same terms it offered Cam (waive the suspension efffective immediately upon my agreement to donate my winnings from a future tournament), here's my lawyer. I'll see ya in court. And, unlike Cam who at least respects the game enough to put forth his best effort when he steps onto the course, were I H_t_L, you darn well better believe that I'd tank at that future tournament just to screw the PDGA.

Bad precedent, bad decision.

Here's the deal, I can see NO REASON that the BOD would lessen the original penalty, except (A) They are coddling to a high-profile player, or (B) They were being threatened with litigation.

If (B) is true, then they should TELL US. Because without it, they look like a bunch of butt-kissers. And if they WERE being threatened with litigation, what a gross and disgusting place this game has become. And how putrid would Cam look for even exploring that avenue?

I sure hope we get an explanation of the reasons behind the decision. Without a justification, whatever it is, the BOD does not look good. And saying "It's a complicated situation with many factors that we discussed a lot" doesn't really cut it.

Sorry to disappoint but Discraft's take on the whole thing is "nothing he did, warranted ANY disciplinary action!" They claim it all was personal. I guess what should have been done was to DQ him right then and there! We didn't understand that you can DQ someone even after you complete your last hole. That mistake will NEVER be made again! That was Discrafts report to the PDGA. Don't waste your time!

Ben, I understand your cynicism, but I wonder how many complaints Discraft has received about Cam's behavior over the years? It is not multiple complaints concerning a single incident, but single complaints concerning a multitude of incidents that will change that perception.

As you noted ealier, Discraft is (apparently) under the impression that Cam's bad rep is restricted to the message board. If that perception is to change, it will do so because individual disc golfers, spectators, event sponsors, etc. take the initiative to write to Discraft AND the PDGA to file a specific complaint about a specific incident. (Note: specific incident, with event name, date, round #, etc., not a generic complaint.) Do you think Discraft would view things any differently if the head of the local chapter of the Leukemia Society and the BHMO sponsors in front of whom he blew up had written to them directly, told them how offended that they were by Cam's actions, how pooly it reflected on Discraft that they were associated with him, that Cam was not welcome at their events in the future, and that, were he to show up at such an event anyway, they would withdraw their sponsorship dollars even if it meant doing so on the day of the tournament?

And if they WERE being threatened with litigation, what a gross and disgusting place this game has become. And how putrid would Cam look for even exploring that avenue?



I have no idea of the behind the scenes working of this deal or of any of the PDGA in general. What I would like to point out is that the 'P' in PDGA stands for Professional. Granted, we are far from a big league organization, but lawyers and litigation are a daily part of the life of the NBA, NFL, MLB, PGA, NHL, etc.

Why do you consider it gross, disgusting, and putrid if someone who derives their livelihood from DG negotiates with their Professional association with the assistance of a lawyer?!

Your perception (and others who share it) is a good sign of the need for growth. These are growing pains. IMO, it is good for the PDGA to make decisions and policies that will stand up to legal scrutiny. It will make the organization better in the long run.

And if they WERE being threatened with litigation, what a gross and disgusting place this game has become.



And you will find that as the sport continues to grow and increase in popularity and as more players turn their skills into a full-time profession this will exist. It doesn't make the game a gross and disgusting place. Because for every Richard that uses tactics like this to bully around the BoD there will be 499 Joes who will take responsibility for their actions and genuinely try to resolve their personal issues for the love of the game.

I am not implying this bullying occurred but if it did I don't think we should throw our hands up in the air and curse the system. Although most would find litigation to be unnecessary and downright inexcusable it is the individuals right to explore that option unless they are contractually restrained from doing so.

Lastly, I do not know Cam. Never met him. Never shook his hand. Never witnessed his good days. Never witnessed his bad days. But I do know this.

1. He has publically apologized on this board. (was it really him? you decide.)
2. He has apologized to the TD. (For someone who is played out to be ruthless, this is one big fat pill to swallow)
3. He will not pocket any TOURNAMENT money from his next event. It is safe to say he moneys in far more events than not. Sure, DC may pay him bonuses for a nice finish but simple math will tell you this would still be -$$$ in Cam's wallet.
4. He will not be participating in next year's Hambrick. I consider this to be a likely loss of money as well, as it is unlikely a larger or comparable event will be scheduled at the same time. (I may be wrong.)
5. He is on probation for one year. I am assuming here that this operates like the criminal justice system. You mess up we're not going to be so nice next time. This is your warning.
6. He has a great deal of ground to make up if he does want to be viewed in a positive light. Once again, I am assuming he genuinely acknowledges he has a problem and is willing to try and resolve this. I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

All in all, I think there's nothing really to get all worked up about here. I get the feeling that some who have posted on here wouldn't be able to sleep until they marched Cam up to the gallows. Relax, take a deep breath and smile at the thought of money being donated to an excellent cause. I'm pushing for Cam to do very well at USDGC as each and every one of you should too. :)

I wish Cam all the luck in the world in getting his act together, and would allow him to compete in any event I ran. But if he pulled what he reportedly did at the BH I would ban him from all events I ever ran in the future and work dilligently to have him banned from PDGA play for at least a full year. I'd probably hire a lawyer to fight on my behalf as well.

This is all dependant on the account of what he did being accurate. If it is, then regardless of his troubled personality and character, I would make sure that he did no further damage to my events or the "good name" of disc golf for which most of my organizational efforts are intended.

Again, this is all a big "IF". Only the folks there know what really happened and it is completely "on them" to take action. If it was as bad as it sounded and I were the TD, I'd cancel my event before allowing him to compete in it again. (And I personally know someone who did just that because of the Angry Clown. A PDGA NT Event no less!?!)

But if he pulled what he reportedly did at the BH I would ban him from all events I ever ran in the future and work dilligently to have him banned from PDGA play for at least a full year.


How many times have I heard this and still no has done anything to him. Hasn't the past turmoils sent up a red flag enough for people to quit saying " well if he does that at my event I'll do something" when is going to finally be the time to start doing something about it?
After the 439th incident?

There wasn't even the slightest concern on my part about litigation or legal action. None whatsoever. As a board we were focused entirely on making the best determination on the best set of facts we could find.

Along those lines, the factual background we operated in on appeal was quite different than during the initial decision by the commissioner. The initial factual background was that the objectionable behavior involved shouting/yelling and swearing/profanity. The factual review on appeal found that although there was loud talking, there was no yelling or shouting at the TD, nor was there any swearing or profanity.

I think this pretty much ends my participation in this discussion thread. There's little left to say. If anyone who pays attention here doesn't "get it," then grab me the next time you see me and we can talk face to face. :)

I have no idea of the behind the scenes working of this deal or of any of the PDGA in general. What I would like to point out is that the 'P' in PDGA stands for Professional. Granted, we are far from a big league organization, but lawyers and litigation are a daily part of the life of the NBA, NFL, MLB, PGA, NHL, etc.

Why do you consider it gross, disgusting, and putrid if someone who derives their livelihood from DG negotiates with their Professional association with the assistance of a lawyer?!




Okay, well, I guess it is gross and disgusting and putrid because it makes this game just like all those other big sports and their idiot lawyers and their strikes and their unions and their lockouts and their crybaby pee pants star athletes. Sure, threaten to litigate your "employer" if you were wronged. But he was not.

Also, and by total contrast, the inability of the BOD to defend itself shows what a small-time feel-good hippy game this "sport" remains.

You can't have Real Sport on one hand and Hippy Lovefest on the other. Sorry you gotta choose one or the other.

BTW, if the threat to litigate didn't happen in this case, these remain my opinions were it to ever happen.

The factual review on appeal found that although there was loud talking, there was no yelling or shouting at the TD, nor was there any swearing or profanity.



WRONG! I was right there and I think this is profanity "This was the worst fu&amp;%*ng tournament I have ever played in" "Fu%&amp;$g joke" maybe "Bull [*****]" isn't profanity to some but it is to me.

Your right he wasn't screaming or yelling but rude as hell.

Along those lines, the factual background we operated in on appeal was quite different than during the initial decision by the commissioner. The initial factual background was that the objectionable behavior involved shouting/yelling and swearing/profanity. The factual review on appeal found that although there was loud talking, there was no yelling or shouting at the TD, nor was there any swearing or profanity.



Wow, totally interesting. Thanks Terry.

This should start some further firewords from the direction of Ohio. Shouldn't it? Seems like a lot of trouble and drama from the Hambrick people (Booty etc.) for some "loud talking with no swearing". :eek:

Nina, I think the board is in a lot better position to take a stronger action if another incident is reported in the next year. Future misconduct should lead to a suspension if the violator is already on probation.

I'll believe it when I see it! Just like my original post

Wow I just got back from Neptune on a detour from Saturn and just found out about this today. I must say I AM SHOCKED! I never thought the PDGA would actually suspend him for a substancial time period, especially for USDGC.

I was right beside CAM when he began his rampage on the TD, I witnessed it all and laughed because I figured the PDGA wouldn't do anything again. His comment about Dan running the tournament just to get his name on the Lukemia Society's check was worth 4 months in itself. I thought everything that he said to Dan was a bunch of BS. The BHMO has always been a good event and sure the course is hard but what's wrong with that.

Here's the deal, I can see NO REASON that the BOD would lessen the original penalty, except (A) They are coddling to a high-profile player, or (B) They were being threatened with litigation.

I can think of several reasons, none of which have to do with the profile of the player or the threat of litigation. Whether or not you, I, or anyone else would accept those reasons as valid or sufficient is a moot question.


If (B) is true, then they should TELL US. Because without it, they look like a bunch of butt-kissers. And if they WERE being threatened with litigation, what a gross and disgusting place this game has become. And how putrid would Cam look for even exploring that avenue?

Why would one even speculate that the BOD was being threatened with litigation? It is a very large logical leap from the fact that Mark Ellis is a lawyer to the conclusion that the BOD was being threatened with litigation. There are several scenarios by which Mark could have become involved in the process, none of which even remotely touch on litigation. If, for example, Mark's experience and expertise includes mediation, why would the BOD not solicit his input in crafting a compromise between an outright ban and complete repudiation of the suspension?


I sure hope we get an explanation of the reasons behind the decision. Without a justification, whatever it is, the BOD does not look good. And saying "It's a complicated situation with many factors that we discussed a lot" doesn't really cut it.

While it would be nice to know the BOD's reasoning, I don't think it's necessary, appropriate, or even helpful, for the BOD to share them. Realistically, will knowing the BOD's reasoning change people's minds about the decision? The Supreme Court's reasoning in Gore v. Florida is laid out in exhaustive detail, but no one pretends that it changed people's perception of who "really" won the election.

Does the decision look bad? Yes. Does the absence of an explanation lead itself to uninformed, baseless, speculation? Yes. But in the end, it comes down to whether or not one trusts the BOD to take its responsibility seriously and to make an appropriate decision, given the information at its disposal.

I continue to believe that the decision is a bad one because it sets a bad precedent, I am willing to grant that the BOD's decision was an appropriate one.

Nina put down the keyboard and go throw or this is your new action figure (http://www.shop.store.yahoo.com/cmdstore/geacfifrhawo.html).

heres a question to all you.. suppose Cam plays in the USDGC and dontates all his winnings to whatever charity... can he count that as a tax write off and get it back at the end of the year??

heres a question to all you.. suppose Cam plays in the USDGC and dontates all his winnings to whatever charity... can he count that as a tax write off and get it back at the end of the year??



Yes, he can.

BTW, IF CT (or anyone for that matter) were to take a case like this to a judge or jury, they'd have to prove "damages." What are the damages? "uh, your Honor, my client isn't allowed to play frisbee golf." He'd be laughed out of court and probably be sued for filing such a frivolous lawsuit. Just my $0.02 worth based on 18 years working in litigation.

Mark never threatened to sue the PDGA in any way. His whole point was about fairness in light of the actual offense. There are plenty of legal cases making it clear that private membership associations such as ours have the power to discipline their members for violating their rules. The board knew this. So did Mark.

Cam admitted that he was loud, rude, and in the TD's face with his complaints about the tournament. He also admitted that he was out of line. He apologized privately and personally before he apologized publicly. His version of the event was not too much different from the TD's. It really came down to what is the proper penalty for someone who is admitting that he inappropriately tongue lashed a TD.

I think the PDGA's need here is to send a message to the players that they are to behave civilly towards TDs, staff and officials. And I think we did. I think we also need to make clear that rude, loud, mean post-round remarks are not the same as changing your score on the card, moving your disc 20 feet when no one can see you, or conspiring not to report a mandatory 2-stroke penalty against yourself and the members of your foursome.

Courtesy and sportsmanship are important but are a seperate issues from cheating. If you think about other sports which penalize players for inappropriate, out-of-place verbal interactions with the officials, and if you put aside issues of personality, I think this decision makes sense.

Quit whinning its over and now in the past so move on :D:DGo play Disc golf or something :D

heres a question to all you.. suppose Cam plays in the USDGC and dontates all his winnings to whatever charity... can he count that as a tax write off and get it back at the end of the year??


Now we need average joe! Where is the tax rep when you need him.

The answer might be that he counts it as income on the "top" and then gets to deduct it as a charitable on Schedule A, so it is a net zero, no different than if he never earned it. But that would be true if he already has enough Schedule A deductions that he is itemizing, and that seems unlikely.

Assuming you still have to itemize to get your charitables [it is against my religion to take charitable deductions for charitable giving so I'm not up on this] and assuming Cam does not itemize but does report his winnings as income, he would have to pay taxes on the income even though he does not get to keep it, unless he can deduct the donation as a business expense on his Schedule C.

There may be an adverse tax consequence here or it may be a wash. There is certainly no tax benefit.

Average Joe? Average Joe? [Did he go back to the islands? I thought it was still hurricane season down there.]

First, regarding tax implications, it�s my understanding it will be handled so CT will be �out of the loop� from a tax standpoint should he cash.

I was a close but sideline observer on this process, having just been at the Augusta meetings but not part of the CT meetings. It�s apparent that a better reporting and documentation process is needed if PDGA members feel firmer action is merited on certain disciplinary issues. The BOD is only slightly more qualified to make a ruling in this case than say a random group of rational people in Namibia (country picked at random) getting the same set of reports from first hand observers. However, the Namibians might not have come up with the imaginative disciplinary action that was applied.

I don�t know whether Nina was interviewed for this process but then the Board wouldn�t necessarily know to have asked him either. My point is that unless more players and TDs formally report problem incidents with players, there will be no other hard documentation from which to draw conclusions regarding ongoing patterns of behavior. Rule 804.05C allows other incidents to be included to determine a disciplinary action. To my knowledge, few if any CT, or for that matter other players, incidents have been formally reported to the PDGA to have as an additional resource for any suspension or appeal ruling. Hearsay, and there�s lots of it, just doesn�t pass the test for use in the process whether it�s for persuading a panel of dedicated volunteers or a veteran lawyer.

Courtesy and sportsmanship are important but are a seperate issues from cheating. If you think about other sports which penalize players for inappropriate, out-of-place verbal interactions with the officials, and if you put aside issues of personality, I think this decision makes sense.



Hold on a second Bruce, overt rudeness is one of the few specifically noted offences in the rules where a player can be DQ'd. To claim it is less severe than the other things you mentioned is incorrect.


And if you want to compare player outbursts in other sports - just take a look at what's happened in MLB the last couple of weeks. Players being suspended for similar emotional outbursts are paying through the nose for it.

If suspension was deemed an inappropriate punishment for this incident, perhaps he should have just been DQ'd from the event after the fact and be forced to give back his prize for the BHMO!! Personally, I don't understand how overt rudeness can occupy this part of the rules as intolerable - AND you can have this sort of incident occur AND it can go through a complaint, suspension, and appeal AND THEN have it come out as being tolerable because he apologized. Something kinda stinky about the process.

ps I could care less about the end result, whether or not Cam gets to play USDGC (or any other event), or whether or not his behavior changes (that can only come from him). But to come on here and justify it as you have saying it's not as serious as cheating is total BS. You on the BOD need to be reminded what the FIRST RULE IN THE BOOK IS???? That's just plain insulting. :mad:

The BOD is only slightly more qualified to make a ruling in this case than say a random group of rational people in Namibia.

That qualified, eh? :eek: The really painful thing is that he is correct! :D

Bruce, you are a total [*****] [*****]. The job you and the rest of the [*****] BOD did was [*****] horrendous! This is the worst [*****] organization I have ever seen.








I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that.










Does that really make it better?

Bruce, you apparently felt the facts were essentially the same as reported to the Commish and the DC, but the penalty was too harsh. Accepting your argument that poor conduct is less of an offense then commonly accepted cheating;

Is there a point where poor sportsmanship ever rises to the same level?

Wasn't he already on probation? (I really don't know. Based on Chuck's posts, I guess not) If he was, it this a factor in your decision?

Alternatively, Since he is now on probation and he does it again, will it be more significant in your eyes the next time through?

> Bruce, you are a total [*****] [*****]. The job you
> and the rest of the [*****] BOD did was [*****]
> horrendous! This is the worst [*****] organization
> I have ever seen.

:eek: That's funny!

I said I would not post on this thread again but I just had to.

That post helped me realize that PDGA volunteer leaders take more s**t on this board - which is far more public than HQ at a tournament - than even the worst stuff that was alleged in the recent disciplinary incident. Maybe we should go back and render some disciplinary actions for behavior on the DISCussion board, this time with hard, first-hand evidence? :D

Some of our critics here have had worse things to say, in a ruder way, than was alleged about the incident in question. And this is very public. Hmm. Let's see, who has posted ruder, more vulgar (if you swap out the asterisks) stuff about PDGA leaders in the past month. Hmm. How many months' suspension is that worth?

Lifetime ban. ;)

You are not dealing with the facts. Cam is getting basically a two-game suspension. For one of them I suppose he can go play a B-tier somewhere else and mitigate his losses. For the other, he can play but loses his winnings. Maybe he gets a bonus from Discraft if he does well. So together it is more like a one game suspension.

I don't follow baseball. What are these guys being fined anyway.

O.k., here are some answers: Kapler and Nixon got a three day suspension for fighting. They appealed and the suspensions were dropped because it was self-defense.

LaTroy Hawkins had to be pulled away from an umpire by his teammates. 3 game suspension. I'm just going by news reports at MLB.com. Please don't sue me for libel, LaTroy. I don't think he ever got to the guy. The umpire is not bleeding or anything in the picture.

Jason Varitek, four game suspension for fighting.

Wow, a whole bunch of Rangers got 5, 6 and 7 day suspensions, subsequently all reduced on appeal. Looking for a reason... Fighting.

No wonder baseball is getting popular these days.

You get in an umpire's face for the wrong reasons or in the wrong way and you miss a couple of games. You fight with other players and you miss a few more games. The first seems about right. I would not expect any leniency from this board if you punch someone out, though. It looks like baseball is starting to get like hockey. I don't think any board members see that as the future of disc golf.

So the only parallel here from recent baseball headlines is LaTroy and in the picture he is trying to get at the umpire while being physically restrained by two teammates. One game for the inappropriate confrontation and one game for the number of teammates it took to hold him down? Did anyone on Team Discraft have to pull Cam off Dan or restrain him?

I think you have to put this in perspective. Baseball actually helps. Do you suppose the owners are telling the players on the side, "All that fighting is great for ratings, boys. We'll make it up to you in next year's salary negotiations."

And if you want to compare player outbursts in other sports - just take a look at what's happened in MLB the last couple of weeks. Players being suspended for similar emotional outbursts are paying through the nose for it.



By that statment do you mean the guy who threw the CHAIR into the stands and BROKE someones NOSE.

If that is what you are reffereing to that not even close to what happend here. Cam got in someones face and yelled what he thought about the tournament. He didnt walk up to the TD and throw a TSUNAMI in his face and break his nose then yell at him about what he thought. Doesnt really seem relative to me.

I would also have to say the only people who can tell the BOD that they messed up or that it isnt fair is the people who ran the BHMO the people who witnessed the outburst and Cam himself. If you were not directly involved you can voice your oppinion but in all reality all of us (myself included) who didnt witness the actual event really cant have anything to say about this particular incident. We can only comment on what we heard or have read. The only comments that really matter are from the people who were directly involved in the situation.

Id also have to agree with Mace when he says that all of us are responsible for this kind of stuff happening and no one doing anything about it. You have to report this kind of stuff formaly so that its on record. They cant use hey i saw Cam swear up a storm and kick his bag the other day when they are deciding on punishment for this incident. It has to be formally complained about and sent in to the PDGA.

One last thing. If your calling people out on breaking the rules, Your not the richard for calling them out THEY are the RICHARD for breaking the rules in the first place. :D

Guess you missed the point Bruce - I don't give a hoot about Cam.

I do care about the appropriateness of the process in dealing with discipline within the organization. You have basically stated that rudeness is not an offense worth punishing. I take issue with that.

When you guys say you were trying to be "fair" - who was it that you were trying to be fair to? The perp or the victim? From what you've had to say - it's sorta hard to tell. :confused:

Did anyone on Team Discraft have to pull Cam off Dan or restrain him?




I think its too late to get anymore info the verdict has been read. NOT GUILTY I SAID "SORRY "

Dan, Terry, Gang, et al., any Board members who doesn't want to take sh-t over this can simply not post. So here I am. That tells you something. Cam Todd's punishment might be less severe than I advocated before the board, or it might be more severe, but I did not dissent so it is my decision.

I'm fine with half these guys saying I'm a wussy who caved or the king of the wussies who led the surrender, or whatever. We live in the USofA where people are supposed to be able to say what they want outside non-burning crowded theatres.

What I think is ironic is that Cam Todd's side thinks we castrated him to make an example of him for everyone else and the other side says we let him walk scot free. [I'm getting more from Cam Todd's side in private than here on the message board.]

That tells me we did fine.

I do not know what I or the board would do in different cases. I think cheating is worse than unsportsmanlike conduct. I think fighting is worse than cheating. Do you think we will ever run another tournament at Kensington or Willow Brook if we preside over a brawl? Fighting is a crime in Michigan.

If you want to come on up to Willow Brook this weekend for a SANCTIONED tournament on a really cool golf course, and tell me that it is the worst tournament ever, and I'm only doing it so you'll think I'm cool like Reese, :D, have at it. I'd really like to show the owners, again, that this game is real and popular and something that can help their business. If you are coming, check the website. The PDGA tour page has the days wrong. It is Friday and Saturday, not Saturday and Sunday. home.comcast.net/~illinoisopen/california.html

Again im not defending anyone in this situation and i think that what Cam did was out of line and should have been handled in a different manner.

In all reality though. The "Victim" as you call him. Cam didnt physically hurt or even TOUCH him in any way from what i have heard. So the only thing that happend to the Victim was he got a ear full at a high volume and his feeling were obviously hurt. If you compare that to punching someon in the face or Moving your mini or pencil whipping or anything along those lines its really not that big of a deal. People get YELLED at and get their feelings hurt ALL THE TIME at their job and even not at their job.

Also from what i have heard the PDGA doesnt really have all that much in the way of other situations where Cam was out of line. He was on probation 1 time from what i know and thats it. If the one time only on probation was the only FORMAL complaint and it wasnt for anything relating to what just occured there really is no basis for any more then what he was given.

Sure eveyone on here can SAY (and it may even be true in all the stories) that Cam has multiple outburst and fits and what have you but if everyone just goes to the parking lot or comes on here and complains about it then its all hearsay and the BOD or the PDGA cant really do anything about it.

Its sad to say but everyone needs to start speaking out and reporting all these things even if they do look like a RICHARD. Who cares. The rules are the rules and if people cant follow them then they shouldnt be able to play in our events. THATS THE BOTTOM LINE.

If these things arent reported to the PDGA then they never happend and they do not exist and they cant be taken into consideration when something finally IS reported.

Unless all these situations you guys are talking about were reported to the PDGA and not just bitched about amongst the pros or whoever witnessed them. Then the BOD and the PDGA did exactly what they saw fit and IMO i think they did a pretty good job in coming up with a punishment for his actions.

> Bruce, you are a total [*****] [*****]. The job you
> and the rest of the [*****] BOD did was [*****]
> horrendous! This is the worst [*****] organization
> I have ever seen.

:eek: That's funny!

I said I would not post on this thread again but I just had to.

That post helped me realize that PDGA volunteer leaders take more s**t on this board - which is far more public than HQ at a tournament - than even the worst stuff that was alleged in the recent disciplinary incident. Maybe we should go back and render some disciplinary actions for behavior on the DISCussion board, this time with hard, first-hand evidence? :D

Some of our critics here have had worse things to say, in a ruder way, than was alleged about the incident in question. And this is very public. Hmm. Let's see, who has posted ruder, more vulgar (if you swap out the asterisks) stuff about PDGA leaders in the past month. Hmm. How many months' suspension is that worth?



Terry, I don't disagree with your comments, but you took my post out of context by not including the apology at the end. I guess my point of 'just because he said he's sorry does not make what he did ok' kinda got lost there.....

Bruce, you apparently felt the facts were essentially the same as reported to the Commish and the DC, but the penalty was too harsh. Accepting your argument that poor conduct is less of an offense then commonly accepted cheating;

Is there a point where poor sportsmanship ever rises to the same level?

Wasn't he already on probation? (I really don't know. Based on Chuck's posts, I guess not) If he was, it this a factor in your decision?

Alternatively, Since he is now on probation and he does it again, will it be more significant in your eyes the next time through?



James, he was on probation previously, but the probation period had ended by the time this happened.

Thanks for the answer Dan. I thought he was on probation. For some reason, that is a factor in my mind.

Another sidenote: Watched the Pete Rose thing and have always wondered why Major League Baseball felt so strongly about gambling on baseball as long as you were not throwing the game. That point is only relevant because that is where MLB thought they needed to draw a line; they communicated it to the players and everyone knew, even if they did not agree.

After thinking about Craig's post, maybe the BOD should get together and draw their own line. IMO, I don't think it is that obvious where the line should be drawn and more importantly, I don't know where the BOD draws that line. I can infer some things. For instance, smoking dope apparently warrants a suspension, but other behaviours don't. Why? I don't see the answer as that clear cut.

Anyways, I realize that my opinion is irrelevant, but the BOD's is not. Maybe they need to draw that line and communicate it clearly to the members, just like MLB.

Along those lines, the factual background we operated in on appeal was quite different than during the initial decision by the commissioner. The initial factual background was that the objectionable behavior involved shouting/yelling and swearing/profanity. The factual review on appeal found that although there was loud talking, there was no yelling or shouting at the TD, nor was there any swearing or profanity.



Wow, totally interesting. Thanks Terry.

This should start some further firewords from the direction of Ohio. Shouldn't it? Seems like a lot of trouble and drama from the Hambrick people (Booty etc.) for some "loud talking with no swearing". :eek:



He cursed, and had violent body language. He was loud. Not yelling loud, but none the less loud. Enough to attract the attention of the Marshal 80ft away! 80 feet! Now the PDGA wants to make me out to be a liar to cover their rear. I expect a call from someone in the PDGA now. Unbelievable, now am I going to be the patsy of the scandal? Am I going to be the Lee Harvey Oswald of disc golf now? I regret sticking out my neck and ever filling this thing but you know what if I had it all over to do again I would. It was my duty to the PDGA and to the Staff of the BHMO. I have yet to even receive a copy of the report! That my friends is how unorganized this PDGA is today.

McCoy stated what he said. It is true. Cam reiterated it to me after he said it once, so not only did he say it once he said it again.

Ben nobody believes or hears what I say even though I have played more golf with CT than just about anyone in the country. I figure I would have some credibilty on this subject and other integrity subjects, but for some reason I don't.

I GIVE UP ON THIS SUBJECT.

[QUOTE]
heres a question to all you.. suppose Cam plays in the USDGC and dontates all his winnings to whatever charity... can he count that as a tax write off and get it back at the end of the year??



Yes, he can.


Actually that's not really an accurate statement. I answered this like two days ago but i'll do it again for clarity because i'm sure one or two others may have similar scenarios that apply to them and not just some professional player who's personal situation is not entirely known to anyone other than himself and the person that signs his return.

Charitable contributions are a Schedule A Itemized Deduction. The only chance you have to derive any tax benefit whatsoever from a charitable contribution is if you file a Schedule A. I'm just guessing here, but at this stage of the professional disc golf game, a touring pro filing a Schedule A is a unique exception.

If you were to file a Schedule A, your tax benefit is pretty simple to calculate, all you do is multiply your deduction or charitable contribution in this case, by your tax bracket. Make a 5,000 charitable contribution and you are in the 10% tax bracket you end up getting a $500 tax benefit versus the person that made the same contribution but does not itemize. Dont for a second think that if he or you were to donate 5,000 to charity you would end up getting a 5,000 tax break.

i'm really interested if the details of the contribution will be made public as its been stated that he would be "out of the loop" or some such wording. all that means is that cam would have to be paid more than he contributes in order to compensate him for the tax he would normally have to pay on that income which he is being forced into donating.

if cam were to win 10,000 and he pays 20% in tax, he is donating that 10k to charity but the irs is still going to stick him for 2,000 in tax on that income. if what harold and chuck say is true, that an arrangement will be made to avoid the tax, i'm curious how it will be done to avoid paying cam more income on top of the winnings that he donates to make up for the tax.

when it comes to dealing with the tax man , there are only 3 things you can do

1 Avoid- this can only be done in advance, and with planning.

2 Defer-doesn't apply here

3 Pay

there is no way to have cam compete, finish in the money and donate the money to charity without cam being held liable for a tax. someone from an outside source can compensate cam for the amount that he will end up owing the tax man for the contribution of his earnings but whatever amount that is will be taxable to cam.

using the 10k earnings example, at 20% tax thats a 2,000 tax bill that cam would owe. Discraft, or maybe USDGC can give cam 2,000 on top of his earnings for placing in the tournament, but that money will be taxable to cam and i'm not sure that whole concept would fly with most of the people that have contributed to this thread as it would give the impression that the PDGA does not have the intestinal fortitude to deal with a high level player being disciplined.

We are pleased to announce that Cam had selected our charity to donate his earnings to.

The National orginization for underprivilaged Disc Golfers suspended by the PDGA who sign waivers and can play but can't accept cash.















The preceding post was a lame attempt at adding some humor to this thread.

I think you have to put this in perspective. Baseball actually helps. Do you suppose the owners are telling the players on the side, "All that fighting is great for ratings, boys. We'll make it up to you in next year's salary negotiations."

Actually, basketball or the NFL are a better analogy than baseball because, unlike verbally abusing of baseballs umpires by players, coaches, and fans is a tradition hallowed by time, in contrast to basketball and football, both of which specifically provide within their respective rules for the offending team to be penalized for the [mis]conduct of its players, coaches, or fans. Look at what happens when a player or coach criticized the officiating in the press or got in the face of officials during or after a game. (Does Mark Cuban's $7million in fines ring a bell? How about the seven games Rasheed Wallace was suspended without pay for "verbally abusing" an official after a game in Memphis in 2003 or the $50,000 fine Warren Sapp received last year for "mistreating" and "abusing" officials (he cussed them out)? Then there are Joe Gibb's comments following the Cowboys-Redskins game:


"I won't go into it because I'll get myself fined, but there were two awful calls, and both of them went against us," Gibbs said. "You couldn't get anything farther from what should have been called in both cases. Both of them were touchdowns, both of them were against us. ... You realize in close games you need to have those things called correctly." (Washington Times, 29 Sept. 2004)

Charitable contributions are a Schedule A Itemized Deduction. The only chance you have to derive any tax benefit whatsoever from a charitable contribution is if you file a Schedule A.



First you said that's not an accurate statement, but then proceed to tell us how it's done. :confused: Any good tax person can help out.

heres a question to all you.. suppose Cam plays in the USDGC and dontates all his winnings to whatever charity... can he count that as a tax write off and get it back at the end of the year??


Yes he can

Michelle, when i read westa's question, and your response, it appears as though you are saying that anything that cam "donates" he will just get back at the end of the year. this is not accurate.

when it comes to taxation, never trust a three word answer. my response was only meant to demonstrate why cam will not be benefitting in the way that westa had asked, and then to demonstrate how a tax benefit is derived from charitable contributions by those who qualify to deduct them.

the facts of the matter are that most people here do not have an adequate understanding of income tax , self employment tax or even something as simple as Sch A deductions. one of the very first lessons i learned in the tax business was , never cause harm to your client. sounds simple, but in actual practice requires more than three word answers to tax questions.

charitable contributions are technically deductions and not expenses or tax write offs

if i were to read westa's question and your reply and then act on that information on my own return, i would be asking for long term correspondence with the irs and state dept of revenue.

These tax discussions are fine and dandy but are likely irrelevant to this issue. Don't presume CT will actually be credited with any income before it gets donated. For example, what if the situation is handled like an Am playing Pro who declines cash, and the Leukemia Society is the next 'pro' in line?

Actually, basketball or the NFL are a better analogy than baseball because, unlike verbally abusing of baseballs umpires by players, coaches, and fans is a tradition hallowed by time, in contrast to basketball and football, both of which specifically provide within their respective rules for the offending team to be penalized for the [mis]conduct of its players, coaches, or fans. Look at what happens when a player or coach criticized the officiating in the press or got in the face of officials during or after a game. (Does Mark Cuban's $7million in fines ring a bell? How about the seven games Rasheed Wallace was suspended without pay for "verbally abusing" an official after a game in Memphis in 2003 or the $50,000 fine Warren Sapp received last year for "mistreating" and "abusing" officials (he cussed them out)? Then there are Joe Gibb's comments following the Cowboys-Redskins game:



If you going to look at it like that then you have to look at 2600 dollars being 10% of his yearly income where as The guys you are speaking of make MULTI MILLIONS a year. So Warren Sapp got fined 50,000 for cussing out a ref so even if he only made a Million that year which is not possible he only got fined 5 percent of hes yearly income. So if he was making 5 million he only got fined 1 percent of his income and if he was making 10 million he only got fined half a percent of his income for that year. The seven game Rasheed missed i guarentee werent 10 percent of his income for the year. So if you compare it to The NBA and NFL where they play a sport for a living and that is their only income then Cam just got a HUGE fine for just yelling and swearing at someone. Dont you think??? :o :confused:

"These tax discussions are fine and dandy but irrelevant to this issue."

ok chuck we'll just not discuss anything that you deem irrelevant then, in spite of the fact that several people have asked about the consequences and this is a discussion board.

"Don't presume Cam will actually be credited with any income before it gets donated. Not positive but I believe the situation will be like an Am playing Pro who declines cash, and the Leukemia Society is the next 'pro' in line."

lol. best wishes with that one. ya know, disc golf is pretty small now in the grand scheme of things and chances are the irs will never even hear about that blatantly obvious attempt to circumvent tax law and the collection of tax due to them under the law, so hey why not?

my name isn't on any of those returns, so i remain a casual observer hoping to learn something new here.

if you can edit in "likely" after the fact, i can edit my answers to reflect that new information, can i not?

cmon just a little more controversey here and this thread will overtake the OMB vs YGB thread for views and replies and have gone on and off topic full circle at least twice. that has to set a message board record of some type.

You bring up an interesting issue. Are you saying a person playing in Pro and declining cash is obliged to pay taxes on their net declined winnings (minus entry fee)? If so, we have some work to do on our competition policies. What if a C corporation pays the entry fee for a player and the winnings are paid to the corporation? Let's say the player is an independent contractor to that corp. Let's say he's an employee.

I don't actually know what the specific details are (and don't really care) other than they have been worked out with the USDGC so CT has a net zero for any USDGC winnings separate from what his sponsors might do.

So if you compare it to The NBA and NFL where they play a sport for a living and that is their only income then Cam just got a HUGE fine for just yelling and swearing at someone. Dont you think??? :o :confused:

The point isn't the size of the fine; it's that they take verbal abuse seriously enough to fine and/or suspend players for engaging in it.

I am of the opinion that verbally abusing someone, be it a TD, another player, a volunteer, a spectator, or whomever, is much more serious than cheating or any of the other rules infractions for which people have been suspended. How does the target of verbal abuse wipe the memory of those abusive words from his or her mind? Those who have been cheated can put the incident behind them and move on, but the target of verbal abuse has to live with and relive the memory of the pain and humiliation of that attack for the rest of his or her life. As someone who regularly counsels people who have been attacked verbally, it is abundantly clear to me that whoever first said, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" was a name-caller rather than a target of name-calling. So, No, I don't think Cam received a "huge fine" for "just" yelling and swearing at someone.

"Are you saying a person playing in Pro and declining cash is obliged to pay taxes on their net declined winnings (minus entry fee)?"

i'm only trying to relate tax to the CT "forced donation" issue, and in a wider scope, to the rest of us that play and have questions about the taxable nature of monies we earn or spend.

Cam , in this scenario, would not be "declining" any money. he would be earning it in his normal course of plying his trade and donating it to a charitable cause. the tax happens once the TD credits CT's finishing place (in a scenario where he would cash) with the amount announced before hand as going to that spot. trying to circumvent a pro's cash proceeds by "declining" would deprive the irs and state gov. of a tax due from that individual.

this situation probably won't happen very many more times and because of that, it doesn't allow for the first rule of taxation to come into play, that being avoid .

As described, this situation basically gives a golfer a "free" charitable contribution in that said golfer would derive two tax benefits, 1 being no tax due on monies earned and 2 a possible tax deduction on that very same money.

The IRS spends many sleepless nights attempting to prevent that situation from happening.

"What if a C corporation pays the entry fee for a player and the winnings are paid to the corporation? Let's say the player is an independent contractor to that corp. Let's say he's an employee."

ok, so i decide to incorporate myself and then hire myself to play, i'll be taxed at the corporate level first, and then again once i earn my paycheck from the corporation. the money has to come out and be taxable sometime. i'm not sure this is the way to avoid it.

keep in mind all of you pro's out there that have a sponsor pay your way into a tournament that that money being paid in for you is income to you because you did not pay it yourself, so expect to be taxed on that as well.

secondly, i would avoid the entire independant contractor issue entirely unless i was (or you were, haha) entirely familiar with the 20 tests you must pass in order to not be considered an employee of someone else. if you were an employee of this C Corp, for whatever reason, where are the 940's and 941's? W-2's, State Unemployment forms and on and on ? i hope the corp has been paying in those employment taxes this whole time because the IRS is at their very worst and angriest if an employment tax has not been paid.

it just seems to me as if a conclusion (or decision) was "jumped to"
and it sounded like a nice idea and allowed both sides to save face but at the cost of not being too entirely thorough with consequence to all parties involved.

Cam has a lot of supporters here, just let him play the event, find out how much money he earns, have one or all of his supporters gift him the tax consequence to him on those earnings and then he can make the donation of his earnings to charity in his name , his tax consequence will be covered, the tourney will be covered, the donation will be made and then happy ending.

So, because an Am playing in Pro is not plying their trade (since they are not a declared pro), declining cash would not have a tax consequence?

So, because an Am playing in Pro is not plying their trade (since they are not a declared pro), declining cash would not have a tax consequence?



not sure that declaring yourself as an am is what it takes to avoid tax, that same am that declines cash in order to maintain true am status is most likely receiving merchandise instead of cash. that merchandise ultimately has a cash value for tax purposes, it might show up as hobby income for example (which allow for hobby losses up to the point of hobby income to offset it) and not Sch C income from self employment.

if i win 500 discs this year i'm still potentially going to have a tax consequence because those discs have a cash value, even though the true cash value of those discs is not the same as the actual cash amount i could have received if i wouldn't have declined to maintain am status.

Hey Joe -

With Cam's permission beforehand, of course, we were considering making a donation from the USDGC directly to the Leukemia Society. Essentially Cam would be playing Am for the Championship where he would have no income to report and no charitable deduction to take. Please let me know what you think.

Take care,

Harold

Harold, it just doesn't pass the nose test. if it was a return i wouldn't sign it. whether he plays am or pro isn't really the sticking point, it sounds to me like no matter what division that he is classified as, he will end up having something of value given to him based on his performance and that value will then be donated to charity.

if he plays, and then based on his performance the USDGC makes a donation straight to charity the donation is still based on his performance. that performance has a value? i don't know what the payout schedule is, but lets say that he finishes in tenth place tied with one other person, that other person gets cash right? someone else could have claimed that spot and the money associated with it?

i don't argue these things because i like tax, i argue because i hate taxes and wouldn't consider myself a good tax man unless i always have fresh revenue agent blood on my teeth. if this was a return and i signed it, i would be expecting to go a few extra rounds against the agents but i would be handicapped with a mouthpiece and headgear, if that makes sense.

just seems to me like the easiest way out of this would be to have him play as he normally would, only he knows what tax bracket he is in but once the tourney is over it should be simple enough to get a very close estimate of his tax liability for earning the money, then have discraft/CT supporters or anyone other than PDGA or USDGC gift him the tax so that he doesn't have to shoulder a tax burden on top of the loss of income.

like i said before, the IRS may never even know what is going on, but if you guys proceed as planned, i would try to prepare myself to answer their questions which are always tilted towards collecting a tax. if i was going to try and set a tax precedent here i would prefer more stable footing.

Hey Joe -

Are you saying that anyone who declines a prize still needs to report the cash/fair market value, or are you saying that Cam would have to because he has constructive receipt of the income by his ability to designate the beneficiary?

Also, do you think that a sponsor could gift to a sponsored player, deduct the gift, and not report the gift on the player's 1099?

Take care,

Harold

that's nice and all. But can we get back to the topic at hand "HOW THE PDGA ROLLED OVER" I would like to know what this guy did
7/20/2004 TBD 18411 Blake Huffman OK 6 Month (Minimum) Suspension

to deserve this suspension. I bet he didn't apologize :confused:

I am sure someone else can better answer this question but I did look through the mess bored archives and found atleast a partial answer (sorry i dont have the link)

I read that he ran a tourney and ran off with all the money collected for PDGA fees and memberships etc. It also said something about monies owed to Innova for fronted merch.

Thats all i remember. I am sure you could do a search here and find that post.

Avg. Joe, I don't pretend to understand all the tax stuff so bear with me. If Cam plays and places in the cash, but has agreed ahead of time that he will not collect any cash for this event and the money is given to Cam from the USDGC direct to the charity, then Cam would not have won any money and he also would not be eligible to take a tax break on the donation. Might that satisfy the IRS?

ok, Cam is being fined correct? at least it was an option for him, and one that he apparently chose. that fine is a financial penalty in that he is to turn over any of his earnings from the USDGC to a specified charity. the amount is unspecified, in that there is no minimun, no maximum but rather anything that he earns from competing in that tournament.

in order to satisfy that arrangement, he either has to show place cash and donate, or show and not cash. if he shows places cashes and donates then he has earned money as he is no different than anyone else in the field, his finishing position will be drawing from the purse.

let's say that the purse is 50,000.

every finishing position in the cash is going to reduce that number.
cam is no different than any other player, if his position in the field earns him money, he will have technically received it whether he gets use from it or not.

BG uses a charity format pretty often to show what good guys the players are in that they play win and "donate" a bunch of money to charity. they aren't , however, just out there for the charity as there is a separate but equal amount that each player will earn for his effort. the difference is that the total charitable contribution is known in advance, all the player does is designate a charity in advance and the prize money and charitable contribution are treated separately. prize money goes to the player who ends up reporting it on his own return, the event then directs the entire charitable contribution which was known in advance, to each winning charity "in honor of" the player, wording may change blah blah blah.

in that scenario, the player never receives the charitable contribution, never donates it, and never has to report it as income or potentially get a tax benefit.

the difference here is that there is no set amount being donated in advance, even though there is a charity waiting to receive it, and the player , in order to satisfy his end of the bargain, will have to tap into the same purse that all other competitors draw from.

regardless of any verbal or written agreements between a player and the tourney in advance, the charity is not the only entity waiting for that prize money to be released, the IRS is waiting also. whatever the final total for the purse is, the only way to tap into it is to play well and finish better than X% of the other competitors. this isn't like a poker game with one player going all in with 250 bucks and another going all in with Am status. if cam draws from the same purse that every other competitor draws from based on athletic performance, i can't think of any way around constructive receipt of place money.

perhaps in the future an actual amount can be determined for these penalties, allowing a player to "work it off" over a series of events , the result will be the same, they will still have constructive receipt, however the player will still have a few bucks to hit up the truck stop for the buffet and shower.

Hey Joe -



Also, do you think that a sponsor could gift to a sponsored player, deduct the gift, and not report the gift on the player's 1099?

Take care,

Harold



i think i missed this one, a gift is a gift and as long as the person doing the giving meets their own personal criteria for gifts for tax consequence, there is no liability to the person receiving, hence no need to include it in that players 1099.

a true gift doesn't have a tax consequence for the person on the receiving end, they are sort of like inheritance monies in that respect. it's already been taxed. if the size of the gift or inheritance exceeds threshholds in the IRC then the person doing the giving will have to pay the tax, not the person on the receiving end.

With all this "gifting", "donation" and 1099 talk etc., I have a question. Just what IS a sponsored player? Are they considered contract labor? Is he/she an employee? Is plastic/shirts/bags/entry fees supplied by the sponsor? Do they recieve a salary and travelling expenses or just keep their winnings? How many events are they required to play?

No matter what, a sponsored player is a representative of the company that sponsors him/her. In that position, the player should conduct themselves in a manner that reflects a positive attitude. I'm sure that after awhile, touring becomes a job, but how much control does the sponsor have over the player? I can't attend NT events to watch the best disc golfers play. The one event that I did attend, I found the top players to be friendly and accessable. Of course that was 10 years ago! I heard very little complaining and I enjoyed following the leader card. I just can't comprehend someone who gets to play fulltime *******' about playing fulltime!

kingrat tipz (http://www.geocities.com/kingrat6931/)

No matter what, a sponsored player is a representative of the company that sponsors him/her. In that position, the player should conduct themselves in a manner that reflects a positive attitude. kingrat tipz (http://www.geocities.com/kingrat6931/)



Sounds like common sense to me, no wait, that is like Military Intelligence isn't it? never mind......What was I thinking��..?

With all this "gifting", "donation" and 1099 talk etc., I have a question. Just what IS a sponsored player? Are they considered contract labor? Is he/she an employee? Is plastic/shirts/bags/entry fees supplied by the sponsor? Do they recieve a salary and travelling expenses or just keep their winnings? How many events are they required to play?

Depends on the sponsor(s) and the player. Both Innova and Discraft have different levels of sponsorship. Don't know whether or not Gateway does, but I would imagine that they do. A sponsorship deal with a disc manufacturer that includes having signature discs made offers more "benefits" than one that doesn't. Also, there are lower levels of sponsorships from companies lower on the pecking order: anything from the big, established companies such as DiscLanding, ZoneDriven. MaceMan, DTW, etc. to the disc golfer who sells discs out of the trunk as a a side business. There are even been non-dg-related companies who provide a company car/delivery van for players to drive to tournaments.

Hey Joe -



Also, do you think that a sponsor could gift to a sponsored player, deduct the gift, and not report the gift on the player's 1099?

Take care,

Harold



hey i was re-reading this, with the benefit of another cup of coffee, and i wanted to be clear about the gift/deduction wording. gifts happen with after tax dollars, so there isn't any deducting going on, unless of course you were referring to deducting the amount of the gift from the allowable amounts per person?

alternatively, a sponsor could gift a sponsored player a very very small gift like say a t shirt or commemorative disc and deduct actual cost from business income, but only because the value is very small and it encourages loyalty and furthers business relationships that have the potential to generate more taxable income to the sponsor.

in any case , they certainly wouldn't show up on a players 1099 .
the only thing that should be there is for example, sponsors cost of discs fronted to a sponsored player for re-sale, entry fees paid in advance by sponsor, fronted travelling costs to a tourney or promotion ,generally any money paid to or on behalf of the sponsored player. they become the players responsibility to report and potentially pay tax on, not the sponsors.

Ave Joe, can you handle my audit? :confused:

**** UNCLE SAM trying to say I owe him some money :mad:

I even declared all my 1099's from last year

well, that's what i do. if you are serious you can pm me with basic details and i may even be able to help you help yourself.

Hey Joe -

That's what I asumed, but I was confused by one of your earleir posts that suggested that discraft should gift him the money.

I guess I am also still wondering if someone declined the prize money to retain their amateur status, would they have to report it.

Take care,

Harold

I doubt they would. That doesn't make since that they would.

That isn't income.

Harold, the suggestion behind discraft (or someone other than PDGA ,USDGC) gifting the tax consequence didn't have a deduction motive, it was a suggestion to avoid any potential backlash from having the organization that created the penalty or the tournament where the penalty was to be satisfied being the group or person that also helped fulfill the obligation.

as far as ams declining prize money goes, i might actually lose some sleep over this one.

if it is being used as an argument towards classifying a recent professional disc golf world champion as an amateur in order to compete against a field of other professionals in what may be one of the very highest cash purse tournaments of the year , with the sole purpose of diverting cash from the purse without a tax consequence to him, well, my experience tells me that is going to be very very hard to defend, and if not successfull if challenged, may even lead to penalties stemming from fraudulent intent etc(mainly directed at the professional responsible for preparing and signing federal documents, but in some small way towards the person responsible for the return to begin with).

if the question is relating to a true am, then it should be clear as to whether the player in question is playing as an amateur against a field of pros or an amateur against a field of other amateurs.

i think it should be clear whether the player in question declines cash in favor of accepting merchandise.

also , is the amateur player actually declining cash and or merch, or are they simply not playing for it to begin with?

i believe Jon mentioned earlier something to the effect of having an agreement to have cam sign which would have the effect of directing any money he may earn directly to the charity in order to bypass cam and hopefully eliminate the taxable event. for much of the same reasons above, i can't find a way to make that particular situation work for cam, based on the BOD ruling which would have him donate his earnings.

a signed agreement, between the TD and the amateur player however, if signed in advance of an event, could possibly have the effect of removing the amateur player from the prize money or merchandise purse, in effect, if they finish in a payout position they would receive acknowledgement of their accomplishment but any financial or merchandise gain for the place they occupied would not go to them, it would be added back to the purse to be split between any other top finishers prior to any other monies being handed out.

in order for that to happen, it would be necessary to remove yourself from the purse, and not decline that which you have already won for your effort.

what happens to that money anyway? say an amateur finishes in 3rd place at the USDGC and every spot is paid out before his, except of course 2nd and 1st. the am's name is called, the entire place erupts with applause to recognize his play, he walks up to the front and declines the money to preserve am status. everyone else has already been paid. in a perfect world that money has to be accounted for in some way. what about all of the non-major events where an am may cash but decline?

record keeping on the TD's part, and appropriate dissemination of the financial information related to disc golf events in general needs to improve dramatically, imo.

receiving merchandise instead of cash may in some cases preserve a players am status for disc golf purposes, but it certainly doesn't prevent a taxable event from happening.

there are a lot of "professional" amateurs out there, pulling in quite a few discs and other merchandise, funny money etc which they then barter/sell but no matter the name the irs wants you to use your tax return to either pay them or explain why you don't think you need to.

avg joe
This thread has now become one of my favorites. Thanks for pointing out what I've figured all along. While I'm not a "tax" accountant it has seemed pretty obvious that if this sport is going to go "mainstream" like so many people seem to want, there is going to have to be a place for the pencil-pushers otherwise there are going to be a lot of "pros" whining about a whole different kind of punishment (penalties & interest).

Sometimes it is good to be a non-cashing (true) am.

Jim- while i'm not an accountant and am probably guilty of pointing fingers and laughing at them in college,it became increasingly apparent to me many years ago that while some people have the drive necessary to take over the world, it is the accountant and the tax man that power the engine.

sometimes i get defensive because i spend quite a bit of time trying to understand the nature of tax and have to relate that to people who then mistakenly assume that i am trying to collect a tax from them, when the reality is i do the best i can to help people avoid tax if at all humanly possible.

what happens to that money anyway? say an amateur finishes in 3rd place at the USDGC and every spot is paid out before his, except of course 2nd and 1st. the am's name is called, the entire place erupts with applause to recognize his play, he walks up to the front and declines the money to preserve am status. everyone else has already been paid. in a perfect world that money has to be accounted for in some way. what about all of the non-major events where an am may cash but decline?



In a PDGA event, when an amateur turns down a cash prize, it is paid down. So if the guy in third turns down the cash, then 4th place gets 3rd place money, 5th place gets 4th place money, etc. until you get to last place cash which would then get paid down an extra spot. It does cause some shuffling around of payouts if the TD doesn't know that someone is going to turn down the cash. However, most TDs know in advance and ask the player before they do the payouts if that player is planning on turning down the cash. When Bruce and I ran some tournaments back in the day that Mark Ellis turned down all his cash winnings, we used to double check with him before awards to find out if he was still planning on turning down the cash. This summer when we had a few Ams play Open we always paid attention to where they were finishing so that we could adjust payouts if need be.

Jon, i think it would be in both the players and TD's interests to have a place, on the entry form perhaps, to have all AM players either sign or ignore, which would acknowledge their intent, in advance, to accept the "consequences" of placing, or removing themselves from any potential purse.

it would make the TD's job of calculating easier i think , and it would also eliminate a scenario where a player declines something that they have already earned .

maybe it sounds "nit-picky", but if a payout is announced and i play then cash, i may end up declining to receive what was announced for that finishing position but i can't ignore the fact that i was entitled to receive it, whether i actually chose to have the use of it or not.

i'm trying to come up with a downside for an AM player to remove themselves from the purse and drawing a blank. the potential upside seems to help both players and TD's?

got a letter from Governor Granholm today, thanking me for contacting her about any potential criminal consequences
related to participating in DG tournaments here in Michigan.

she says she appreciates the time i took to share my ideas about
having a specific exemption, if necessary, added to the michigan gaming statute and that it is obvious that i have put a lot of thought into this matter.

she goes on to say that she intends to keep my comments in mind should any such legislation be presented to her, but that ultimately it is up to the state senate and house of representatives to pass the legislation necessary in order for her to sign or veto.

she added that i may want to present my proposal with a michigan state senator and state representative, as they are always interested in hearing from constituents.

i have now contacted my local state representative, shared with him the pertinent information from my letter to the governor and her response to me, made him aware of the terrific disc golf opportunities already available in the metro detroit area, and invited him to familiarize himself with the game at any of the above.

i went on to assure him that if it were necessary to add specific wording to the michigan gaming statutes to exempt DG tournaments from any potential gambling legislation, that i felt confident in securing the signatures of enough oakland county residents to begin the process.

I believe that process has gone a lot farther in the past, but unsuccessfully. Good luck.

i'm really not expecting much at all for the effort, other than setting one more brick on the pile. with terms running out here for the representatives very soon i would be surprised if this guy even responds. ultimately i'm not even remotely intimidated by the people or the process and i hope that with the use of this discussion board and all of the people it reaches that someone, somewhere will see that it isn't that hard a process to start for themselves and maybe one day it will go all the way.

Hey Joe -

That was not the purpose of my question. I would not risk my license on that strategy. Rather, the purpose of the question was two-fold. First, to show folks that Cam's punishment is probably going to have a financial sting to it beyond the prize money.

The second purpose was to discuss possible stragies for true amateurs who truly want to delcine any benefit. (I agree that merchandise in lieu of cash is pay that was simply minted by Innova instead of The Treasury.) I like the stragey you laid out .

Take care,
Harold

got a letter from Governor Granholm today...



I'm now convinced that Average Joe is a 14 year old kid who pretends to be a tax rep on the internet.

No tax rep would be naive enough to think that form letter #3 is a letter from the governor.

the scary thing is that it was handwritten calligraphy, and the paper was perfumed. tucked inside the custom envelope was a picture of her by herself, but i'm guessing that the shot was a few years old.

i don't want to break her heart, i have to come up with a way to let her down easy.

Joe you are either the funniest, most droll 14 year old I have never met, or the funniest, most droll tax accountant I have never met. Either is a good thing, and exceedingly uncommon. :D

Bruce, you apparently felt the facts were essentially the same as reported to the Commish and the DC, but the penalty was too harsh.



First, I was not involved in the BOD review and decision. I was part of the DC that determined the penalty. What I would like to know is if the above was true, how can the BOD change the penalty? What circumstances were brought to light that changed the situation? If there were none, which appears to be the case, then why overrule both the DQ and Commissioner? The BOD should have determined there were extenuating circumstances to overrule the original decision, but those circumstances have not been brought to light.

While I feel the decision was creative, I am also worried about the precident set. CT has previously been sited for the same offense, therefore the Rules of Play allow for a more severe punishment.

I would like to see someone from the BOD explain the circumstances surrounding why the decision was altered. Bruce and Terry's post do not address this IMO.

Nez

Men that will not be reasoned into their senses, may yet be laughed or drolled into them. - L'Estrange.

most people would go insane after staring at infernal revenue code for many days and years. i had the advantage of being born that way.

I would like to see someone from the BOD explain the circumstances surrounding why the decision was altered. Bruce and Terry's post do not address this IMO.




Nez, perhaps you didn't see these posts above.

Terry Calhoun:
the factual background we operated in on appeal was quite different than during the initial decision by the commissioner. The initial factual background was that the objectionable behavior involved shouting/yelling and swearing/profanity. The factual review on appeal found that although there was loud talking, there was no yelling or shouting at the TD, nor was there any swearing or profanity.

Bruce Brakel:
Cam admitted that he was loud, rude, and in the TD's face with his complaints about the tournament. He also admitted that he was out of line. He apologized privately and personally before he apologized publicly. His version of the event was not too much different from the TD's. It really came down to what is the proper penalty for someone who is admitting that he inappropriately tongue lashed a TD.

Terry's quote states plainly that knowledge of the "facts" changed between the original ruling and the appeal. This has been refuted on this board by people who were at the scene of the crime.

Bruce's quote at least IMPLIES that Cam's apology somehow affected the appeal. Whether the apology really DID impact it is a question for the BOD, whether the apology SHOULD impact it is questionable.

The Board did not vote the way it did for one reason. The Board did not make any findings about the facts or anyone's credibility. Five members of the Board participated in the appeal so there would be five reasons for why we reached the decision we did. If Terry has expressed some reasons above, those are Terry's reasons.

I have defended the Board's decision by comparing the punishment to the baseball suspensions only because someone else brought up that topic. I don't think we discussed baseball suspensions in the Board meeting.

I have not said why I voted for the result that we all agreed on. It seemed like a fair compromise given the views of all the Board members.

It seemed like a fair compromise given the views of all the Board members.




Wow, that seems to imply that there were some that wanted even LESS of a penalty. Amazing.

BTW, while he was apologizing, I wonder if Cam picked up the award from the banquet at World's that he didn't bother to attend.

i have just heard from a reliable source that ben botte has been kicked off of team discraft. i'm glad someone has finally been held accountable for spreading all kinds of bs on the msg board.

Then again, if it was not BS, doesn't say much for Discraft does it?

Post deleted by schick

Careful Schmo, were you there, obviously not or you wouldn't be posting like a sissy! No BS there, take it from the top pros that posted on here like McCoy! Ben was cut from the team because he doesn't play golf anymore. 3-4 tournies a year doesn't qualify on their standards so they are cutting quite a few people off their 60+ player team. Get a life.... :o

i have just heard from a reliable source that ben botte has been kicked off of team discraft. i'm glad someone has finally been held accountable for spreading all kinds of bs on the msg board.



More bad intelligence, I have not been let go from Discraft yet but as my conversation with Discraft over the weekend in Canada went, I will not be sponsored in 2005 because of my lack of WANTING to play with some of these [*****]holes that act like children including the little puss that has the name "Joe Shmoe". Not that it is anybodies business but my OWN. I haven't played much the last few years nor have I played very good. Both are good reasons to not be sponsored. I will continue to throw Discraft products as my affiliation will come to a close soon I'm sure in the next few months. I thank Discraft for all that they have given me and I apologize for not doing much in return. People's lives change and priorities change and disc golf is last on my list of chores. I understand many narrow minded freaks do not understand this. I am married, starting school next quarter, and will have a kid by 2006-2007. So I have a lot to take care of in the next couple of years. I am not saying I am quitting the game and will not play competitively. I will play around Ohio some and I will look forward to maybe playing in the USDGC next year and the years to come because of how great it is. Any comments or questions can be directed to [email protected] I will be happy to answer any questions you may have about this topic. I think I have put an end to your worthless banter Mr. Joe Shmoe......
.

I heard they thought you were a moron for publicly bashing their best player and your former teammate. With friends like you, who needs enemies. Can you say, kicked off the team. :eek: Go Discraft!

Man Booty,

This guy Lurker, aka discman 24_7, aka Joe Schmoe, he doesn't like you too much. What did you say to get him so mad? I bet you went to his tournament and cussed out the TD and acted like a horse's rearend or something...

I don't think he was kicked off for any of those reasons, I heard he was removed from the team, because he lost to a 12 year old girl at Blendon Woods :D

I also heard through the grapevine that discman24_7 enjoys watching kiddie porn and lickin his dachsunds nuts.

Oh and I heard from a very reliable source that Joe Schmoe dresses up like a girl and goes to downtown DETROIT and sells his *** up for crank money.

Hey those things you heard about discman 24 7 must be true We have been hearing about him for awhile .Dashhounds huh what a pervert.are you sure your probation officer even knows you are at the park .Probably not.

I don't think he was kicked off for any of those reasons, I heard he was removed from the team, because he lost to a 12 year old girl at Blendon Woods :D




It was a gut-wrenching loss.......

It seemed like a fair compromise given the views of all the Board members.


Wow, that seems to imply that there were some that wanted even LESS of a penalty. Amazing.

Diana has a collection of books written by the author who created Lad and Lassie. I think his name is Terhune. Anyway in one of his books he explains why they got a collie saying something like, "The Master wanted a Great Dane. The Mistress prefered a collie. So they compromised and got a collie."

if you are going to try and bad mouth someone at least HAVE THE NUTS TO YOU YOUR REAL NAME! you must be a REAL PUZZY!!!

2 things

1st, You have to pay taxes to be able to write something off. It only comes off your income, not straight off the amount you owe. Unless Cam gets EIC he would not be getting any money from the IRS.

2nd - Nobody has bashed Cam more than Kevin on this board. Has Discraft kicked him off the team????

Discraft needs to do something about Cam. Maybe they have. We may never know.

WHOA WHOA WHOA horsey! BASHED CAM? I have only been here to confirm the truths and squash the misconceptions about CAM. I have been here to make sure that you REALLY know what its like to deal with CAM on the course. I'm just making sure that no one gets confused by the hearsay. Only about 1% of the people on this thread have actually played with Cam, I've played about 40 tournament rounds with CAM, so maybe I know a little about this.

ALSO It may have been because of ME that he got his suspension lightened, because his suspension got reduced after the people in charge of this contacted me. They didn't contact me on the original supension.

I've always said to EVERYONE about this situation that Cam was out of line but I have seen him do much worse. SO PIZZADOG easy what your saying !

PS. The TEXAS LONGHORNS is our B I T C H !!!!!
63-14
14-3
35-24
65-13
177-54 HAHAHA! <font color="red">OU BABY! </font>

and we own OU Volleyball your GIRLS are WEAK. 26-0 record . KABOOM

YEAH i think the longhorn cricket team is good too :o
We will see red raiders lose by 15 to them stickin sooners.
will the longhorns keep it close?