How do you throw a legal jump putt? Does your disc have to leave your hand with one foot in contact with the ground? Is anyone out there actually executing a legal jump putt?

This topic has been discussed quite often over the last few years. In most cases, the disc is released before the putter leaves the ground, and the follow through is where the jump takes place. There are a few out there that manage to leave the ground first, but it is usually too close to be certain.

The putt can be very effective. I would hate to be called out for not using it correctly. I've heard many different opinions about the technique, but none of them are specifically mentioned in the rule book...or are they?

Just that it is only legal outside of 10m, that all points of contact at the time of release must be no closer to the target than the marker disc, that the putt must be released before the player's last point of contact leaves the ground <font color="blue">, and that at least one point of contact be on the LOP within 30cm behind the marker disc at the time of release</font>.

To clarify a point of contact, that would be anything currently contacting any object capable of giving support. So a foot in the air is not a point of contact, but a hand touching a tree is.

<font color="blue">missed that one, thanks Bruce</font>

The rules say you have to have a point of contact on the playing surface on the line of play within 30 cm behind your marker at the time of release. Inside ten meters you also have to demonstrate balance before advancing beyond the marker.

If you jump then putt you don't have the point of contact. If you putt then jump, you do. Depends on when you jump.

And it is hard to call without slo-motion replay.

<font color="blue">I think our posts were "simultaneous." I started to post and then got distracted by some work and then posted after you did.</font>

Watch the Jump Putt KING(Felberg)in slow motion alot,It's really hard to tell on TV,let alone by the naked eye.He's got it DOWN.Is he never called on it?

I have been doing it how it feels natural but I cant even tell if I have a foot on the ground before I release the disc. I wish I knew for certian cause I would hate to be cheating.

Hey Jake check out Dave Fledberg on the www.discgolfreview.com (http://www.discgolfreview.com) site click his putting it shows a jump in frame.

Make sure you don't land on your mini!

And it is hard to call without slo-motion replay.



That's the only way I've ever been able to determine if it's legal or not. I think to call it in real time you would have to have one person watching for when the players feet leave the ground and one watching for when the disc is released.

My suspicion is that many of them are not legal, but are too difficult to call in the field.

I say that jump putts should be illegal. PGA doen't allow a jump put, NBA doesn't allow a player a jump at the free throw line. Can discgolfer's play with out a jump putt, YES thay can.

I NBA doesn't allow a player a jump at the free throw line.


You can jump at the free throw line, you just can't go past it.

I say that jump putts should be illegal. PGA doen't allow a jump put, NBA doesn't allow a player a jump at the free throw line. Can discgolfer's play with out a jump putt, YES thay can.



I'm willing to guess that you can't jump putt. If you could, you would see it's value. You're argument is weak at best. PGA also doesn't allow you to clean your ball in the fairway, maybe towels should be banned to stop people from cleaning their discs.

I say that jump putts should be illegal. PGA doen't allow a jump put, NBA doesn't allow a player a jump at the free throw line. Can discgolfer's play with out a jump putt, YES thay can.



The PGA doesnt allow a jump putt. They dont disallow it either. Im sure if Tiger wanted to jump before he hit his putt it would be fine with everyone because A he would look like a MORON and B it wouldnt help him what so ever!!! And as already stated they DO all players in the NBA to jump at the free throw line as long as they dont CROSS it. So both your arguments are not only rediculous but unfounded and I agree with Dirty that you prolly CANT jump putt or you wouldnt be saying it should be illegal. Thats like me saying that a lefty hyzer should be illegal because I dont know how to throw it.

Thats like me saying that a lefty hyzer should be illegal because I dont know how to throw it.



I would suck if that was illegal. :D;)

Thats like me saying that a lefty hyzer should be illegal because I dont know how to throw it.

Actually, the closer analogy would be its like saying you should not be allowed to throw a disc that feels overweight if the TD does not have a scale.

I say that jump putts should be illegal. PGA doen't allow a jump put, NBA doesn't allow a player a jump at the free throw line. Can discgolfer's play with out a jump putt, YES thay can.



The PGA doesnt allow a jump putt. They dont disallow it either. Im sure if Tiger wanted to jump before he hit his putt it would be fine with everyone because A he would look like a MORON and B it wouldnt help him what so ever!!! And as already stated they DO all players in the NBA to jump at the free throw line as long as they dont CROSS it. So both your arguments are not only rediculous but unfounded and I agree with Dirty that you prolly CANT jump putt or you wouldnt be saying it should be illegal. Thats like me saying that a lefty hyzer should be illegal because I dont know how to throw it.



Well ..................here's the thing.

It has been mentioned before on multiple threads.

I have seen alot !!!! ALOT of illegal Jump Putting !!!!!!!!

Guys doing it from 12-15 feet....................just because no one is looking. SAD !!!!

Guys Leaving the Ground , BEFORE releasing the disc !!!!!
That's a big one. Some don't even realize they are doing it and get real baby like, if you say anything !!!! :mad:

Jump Putting is Illegal .....................PERIOD !!!!!!!

Don't do it !!!!! BE A MAN AND LEARN HOW TO PUTT REAL DISTANCES !!!!!!!!! :mad:

Sorry about the negative. :eek:
I just get real tired of cheaters.

Guys Leaving the Ground , BEFORE releasing the disc !!!!!

Releasing the disc while in the air (i.e. bad jump putt form) is a major disadvantage in terms of control. PROPER jump putting (where the force of your follow through causes you to jump or step through) is legal (from outside 10m) and a beneficial technique.

IMO, there is no need for a jump putt until you get outside of 50ft or so (assuming proper putting technique).

Jump Putting is Illegal .....................PERIOD !!!!!!!

Don't do it !!!!! BE A MAN AND LEARN HOW TO PUTT REAL DISTANCES !!!!!!!!! :mad:

Sorry about the negative. :eek:
I just get real tired of cheaters.



Is throwing a thumber cheating? What about a roller? Or even an upside down putt?

Be a man and learn another way to putt...If you did, I bet you could get to 1000.

You guys are so silly! :p

Anyway, I think that less than 1% of players actually benefit from putt-jumping. And I agree, putt-jumping isn't really necessary inside of like 50ft. But its funny to see people putt-jump anyway, especially when they are WAY OFF!

You guys are so silly! :p

Anyway, I think that less than 1% of players actually benefit from putt-jumping. And I agree, putt-jumping isn't really necessary inside of like 50ft. But its funny to see people putt-jump anyway, especially when they are WAY OFF!




Less than 1%...That's funny. I'd love to see your statistics that gave you that percentage. I'd also like to see your putt-jump. I bet it looks a lot like Quickdisc's and Chile's. Just this weekend, during the 2nd round, Brinster, Sinclair, and I all made jump putts from 70'+ for deuces. 3 out of 100 is already 3% /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thats like me saying that a lefty hyzer should be illegal because I dont know how to throw it.


I agree, lefty hyzer's should be illegal. Anything that ill shouldn't be allowed for the shear intimidation factor alone! Lefty Hyzer? That's the definition of "big pimpin".
Wootah

You guys are so silly! :p

Anyway, I think that less than 1% of players actually benefit from putt-jumping. And I agree, putt-jumping isn't really necessary inside of like 50ft. But its funny to see people putt-jump anyway, especially when they are WAY OFF!




Less than 1%...That's funny. I'd love to see your statistics that gave you that percentage. I'd also like to see your putt-jump. I bet it looks a lot like Quickdisc's and Chile's. Just this weekend, during the 2nd round, Brinster, Sinclair, and I all made jump putts from 70'+ for deuces. 3 out of 100 is already 3% /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Jump putts are immoral... everybody knows that.

;)

Releasing the disc while in the air (i.e. bad jump putt form) is a major disadvantage in terms of control.

Says who? I don't mean that in a click-click-oh-back-back sense. I mean it in the sense of, if you have a lot of bodily momentum going toward the target, you don't lose much by being in the air. If throwing while in the air was a major disadvantage, you would not see so much of it from good players! Whether you putt from the ground or the air what matters is whether you have a consistant style that you practice, and whether that style gets your momentum on the line of play.

My suspicion is that many of them are not legal, but are too difficult to call in the field.




My thoughts exactly.

I would venture to say approx 50-65% are done illegally. It's hard to make a call unless it's obvious and even then you need someone to second you on it. I think with more and more jump putters out there, getting someone to back you on a call becomes increasingly difficult. If they make or second a footfault call they may fear retaliation when they jump putt.

Personally I see no real need for jump putting in this game. The advance past your lie after release leeway was originally intended for longer fairway throws not putting. The jump putt is just a lightning rod for controversy.


I might add that watching someone hurtle himself through the air while "putting" looks ridiculous and doesn't do much to add credibility in the view of an outsider.

What's kinda silly is when you try to tell a footfaulting jump putter that he's becoming airborne before release he will deny it vehemently. It's very similar to trying to tell a drunk that he's been drinking too many.

Less than 1%...That's funny. I'd love to see your statistics that gave you that percentage. <font color="red">From watching several A-tiers and major events. Probably 10% of players have a putt-jump, but not many do it well. And considering there are more ams and rec players than pros, many of which don't even know what a putt-jump is.</font>
I'd also like to see your putt-jump. <font color="red">No you wouldn't, its disgusting. I prefer a backhand flick. Very accurate and dependable, and no need for a run-up or jump follow-through.</font>
I bet it looks a lot like Quickdisc's and Chile's. Just this weekend, during the 2nd round, Brinster, Sinclair, and I all made jump putts from 70'+ for deuces. <font color="red">Usually pros who do putt-jump do it well. Jay Reading is deadly with a putt-jump. However, I have seen pros that putt-jump and it decreases their accuracy. I just hate to see ams that think just because they are outside of 10m that they are supposed to jump-putt, and do-so poorly.</font>
3 out of 100 is already 3% /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <font color="red">For that tourney, but think how many ams and recs and even pros that don't putt-jump. All the more power to those who can. I'm not against it, as long as its legal. Just from my experience, (unless you are a pro or sandbagging in Adv.) it hurts more than it helps most players.</font>

You guys are so silly! :p

Anyway, I think that less than 1% of players actually benefit from putt-jumping. And I agree, putt-jumping isn't really necessary inside of like 50ft. But its funny to see people putt-jump anyway, especially when they are WAY OFF!




Less than 1%...That's funny. I'd love to see your statistics that gave you that percentage. I'd also like to see your putt-jump. I bet it looks a lot like Quickdisc's and Chile's. Just this weekend, during the 2nd round, Brinster, Sinclair, and I all made jump putts from 70'+ for deuces. 3 out of 100 is already 3% /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



There you go " and I all made jump putts from 70'+ for deuces." That is outside 60 feet !!!!!!! That's 20 meters !!!!!!!
That's officially considered a UPSHOT , which is WAY different than a PUTT !!!!!!!

See .....................even Vincent thinks so !!!!!

As far as myself ..........................I have NEVER been that weak , even after MULTIPLE surgeries and ER visits and including on my death bed ( Lord Knows the truth here )...............Have I ever needed to or even wanted to consider CHEATING ( Salesman talk ) <font color="red"> [] </font> JUMP PUTTING !!!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

My suspicion is that many of them are not legal, but are too difficult to call in the field.




My thoughts exactly.

I would venture to say approx 50-65% are done illegally. It's hard to make a call unless it's obvious and even then you need someone to second you on it. I think with more and more jump putters out there, getting someone to back you on a call becomes increasingly difficult. If they make or second a footfault call they may fear retaliation when they jump putt.

Personally I see no real need for jump putting in this game. The advance past your lie after release leeway was originally intended for longer fairway throws not putting. The jump putt is just a lightning rod for controversy.


I might add that watching someone hurtle himself through the air while "putting" looks ridiculous and doesn't do much to add credibility in the view of an outsider.

What's kinda silly is when you try to tell a footfaulting jump putter that he's becoming airborne before release he will deny it vehemently. It's very similar to trying to tell a drunk that he's been drinking too many.



Nice analogy : "What's kinda silly is when you try to tell a footfaulting jump putter that he's becoming airborne before release he will deny it vehemently."

" It's very similar to trying to tell a drunk that he's been drinking too many." :eek:

I know players who are intoxicated !!!!! :p

Guys Leaving the Ground , BEFORE releasing the disc !!!!!

Releasing the disc while in the air (i.e. bad jump putt form) is a major disadvantage in terms of control. PROPER jump putting (where the force of your follow through causes you to jump or step through) is legal (from outside 10m) and a beneficial technique.

IMO, there is no need for a jump putt until you get outside of 50ft or so (assuming proper putting technique).




He is right if you are releaseing the disc in the air you have lost all of your leg power and thus you will be putting with all arm.

I do disagree about the 50ft thing as I JP from 33 at times especially in headwinds or uder an overhang. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

You guys are so silly! :p

Anyway, I think that less than 1% of players actually benefit from putt-jumping. And I agree, putt-jumping isn't really necessary inside of like 50ft. But its funny to see people putt-jump anyway, especially when they are WAY OFF!




Less than 1%...That's funny. I'd love to see your statistics that gave you that percentage. I'd also like to see your putt-jump. I bet it looks a lot like Quickdisc's and Chile's. Just this weekend, during the 2nd round, Brinster, Sinclair, and I all made jump putts from 70'+ for deuces. 3 out of 100 is already 3% /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Yeah if you took my jump putt away I would lose at least 1 stroke a round as it increases my 50-70fters from about 20% (non jump putt) to around 50% and even when i miss I usualy hit metal.

Less than 1%...That's funny. I'd love to see your statistics that gave you that percentage. <font color="red">From watching several A-tiers and major events. Probably 10% of players have a putt-jump, but not many do it well. And considering there are more ams and rec players than pros, many of which don't even know what a putt-jump is.</font>
I'd also like to see your putt-jump. <font color="red">No you wouldn't, its disgusting. I prefer a backhand flick. Very accurate and dependable, and no need for a run-up or jump follow-through.</font>
I bet it looks a lot like Quickdisc's and Chile's. Just this weekend, during the 2nd round, Brinster, Sinclair, and I all made jump putts from 70'+ for deuces. <font color="red">Usually pros who do putt-jump do it well. Jay Reading is deadly with a putt-jump. However, I have seen pros that putt-jump and it decreases their accuracy. I just hate to see ams that think just because they are outside of 10m that they are supposed to jump-putt, and do-so poorly.</font>
3 out of 100 is already 3% /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <font color="red">For that tourney, but think how many ams and recs and even pros that don't putt-jump. All the more power to those who can. I'm not against it, as long as its legal. Just from my experience, (unless you are a pro or sandbagging in Adv.) it hurts more than it helps most players.</font>





Oh BTW at the Victoria open 6 of the 7 pros I played with threw Jump putts (and made them) and the guy who didn't is not know for his putting and is not confident in a JP.

I feel I am a stronger jump putter outside ten meters than I am putting from around 30 ft regular putting. I have been called once for an illegal putt during tourney play and by a good friend. He wasn't trying to play head games but trying to give me a heads up. I usually put my right foot behind my mini, but it some cases that is not possible. So I lead with with my right foot so when I have to put my left foot behind my mini I move my 10cm behind my mini so I can lead with my right foot(left foot still behind minin) so I do not cross my mini before I release my disc. If that makes any sense. I would not call someone unless it is a obvious offense. It is a hard rule to enforce.

I remember a DiscTV episode where Feldberg showed where he had marked 30 cm on his shoe so that he could do the same thing.

Yeah if you took my jump putt away I would lose at least 1 stroke a round as it increases my 50-70fters from about 20% (non jump putt) to around 50% and even when i miss I usualy hit metal.

[/QUOTE]

seems like it would take more than one stroke away if you were hitting 50% of your jump putts from 50-70ft

Well I am not usually 50-70ft away. I was going to say two but there are some rounds where I never even use a JP so I figured one would be more accurate. :D

actually i've been playing disc golf for over eight years and have just recently started practicing my jumpputt
when ever i tried it in a round in the past i always felt uncomfortable
but now that im practicing its not only improving my accuracy from outside the circle but am making them more consistently inside the circle without the jump
i will keep on working at it cause its helping my game

I have seen recent video's of guys jump putting and I'll say this......................America's Funniest Video's !!!!

Shameful stuff !!!! :eek: How embarrassing !!!!! :o

Folks need to learn how to have confidence in themselfs to make putts without fairy dancing from 60 feet. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Donny,

I am requesting that you stop with the inflammatory remarks about jump putting. It seems you have no interest in discussing the legal/illegal aspects of some jump-putters, but instead are looking to start a flame war or something. Your comments seem to be intended only to irritate other posters for sport or fun.

If you were to throw out epithets and insults about people who throw sidearm, it would be pretty much the same thing.

Donny,

I am requesting that you stop with the inflammatory remarks about jump putting. It seems you have no interest in discussing the legal/illegal aspects of some jump-putters, but instead are looking to start a flame war or something. Your comments seem to be intended only to irritate other posters for sport or fun.

If you were to throw out epithets and insults about people who throw sidearm, it would be pretty much the same thing.



Well said

I support Rhett's position here. There is no reason to be insulting.

A jump then putt is illegal. A putt then jump is legal.

If you feel strongly about it and you see a case of a clear jump then putt then call it. That is all you can do.

Personally, I have found that a legal jump putt has brought a lot of excitement back for me as far as longer putts. Some guys have no trouble doing stationary putts from up to 200 feet away (Moser) then their are folks that need the extra push.

I think it is kind of cool to watch too. Kind of like drives. It shows the physical side of our sport.

I agree with you neon.

I have seen Ken Climo jump putt, if it works for him... it could work for you too!

Donny,

I am requesting that you stop with the inflammatory remarks about jump putting. It seems you have no interest in discussing the legal/illegal aspects of some jump-putters, but instead are looking to start a flame war or something. Your comments seem to be intended only to irritate other posters for sport or fun.

If you were to throw out epithets and insults about people who throw sidearm, it would be pretty much the same thing.



Other throws are totally different. That's just it.......they are throws.
I have tried jump putting , but I have way to much power in my putts to start with. I think it may work ...............say outside 160 feet , but isn't that also considered a upshot ?

But first and foremost :
In Putting.............your to show ballance without movement. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Without movement.

When did all this Jump Putting start anyway ? I see too many people cheating by Jumping first , then releasing the disc while they are in the air.

I guess I'll stroke anyone I see jump putting then.
And make them re-putt with a one stroke penalty.

I think players should pay attention to calling the thousands of foot faults rather than worry about the timing of whether someone has tossed microseconds before or after they left the ground on a jump putt.

Thanks Chuck , but I have seen repeatedly , guys jumping inside the circle and if you say anything , they will vandalize your car !!!! :eek:

Most are weak and don't want to make the call , even on some Pro. :(

Sorry about the negative here Chuck , but somebody has to say something before this gets out of control or political.

What I'm saying is no one cares about making foot fault calls anywhere. A foot fault in my view is a greater violation than jump putts even if they throw microseconds after leaving the ground. It's an athletic play that should be allowed and happens fast enough that it's beyond human capability to visually process it and trust anyone to call a foul accurately.

Many foot faults in the fairway are obvious and just cheating, unlike the athletics of jump putts which are unlikely to be foot faults but should be called if they are. It's not the jumping but the foot fault (if it happens during one) that should be called.

I have seen recent video's of guys jump putting and I'll say this......................America's Funniest Video's !!!!

Shameful stuff !!!! :eek: How embarrassing !!!!! :o

Folks need to learn how to have confidence in themselfs to make putts without fairy dancing from 60 feet. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

was this edited prior to Rhett_the_Admin's admonishment? cuz i was laughing.... the i discovered that i was laughing at something incredibly over the message board line. :confused:

serious question: did someone complain about this post? cuz i'm more than willing to submit about 1000 that are more offensive (or should i say "actually offensive") that have not received any rulers on the knuckles.

just wondering... not picking a fight. i really did enjoy the post.

i too think jump putts look silly, and would much prefer to perform the finesse and touch of a long putt without jumping towards the basket. that said, i am going to practice some jump putts to explore if there might be some advantage to them -- and if i develop a wicked good jump putt, i may suddenly become of the opinion that jump putts are athletic things of beauty ;)

i've heard the idea is to start with a walk through putt when you need the extra d and then as you get further and further out it turns into a jump putt. (?)

y'all should see my flop putt. i sometimes jump forward, leaving my feet, othertimes keep them planted. but i definitely have forward mo', and deliberately fall forward, landing on my hands (and occasionally performing a face plant). hightliht reel if it goes in, and America's Funniest Videos if i faceplant :D

Pat i thought that dirt on your hands was from hard work, not from falling on your face :eek: :o :D

speaking of falling on your face, i played in a local event today and took a circle 7 on the first hole. ouch! :o

2MR? :cool:

oops, i edited that but you answered the unedited version :eek: :D

is it legal to jump 2 meters into the air these days or is that considered a practice 'shot'? :D

I got called on a 150ft jump putt in Vegas. The guy said I bairly stepped on my mini and that he would have called a foot fault, but admitted that no one else in the group saw it. At first I thought he was just hating cause it stuck and his didn't. I quickly turned and thanked him for the warning. I practice jump putts alot and pay close attention especially to my "walk-up" jump putts. They give me an extra 50ft or more, but they do run the risk of easily foot faulting. If I choose to jump putt fine, I still have to follow the rules. I would rather have someone say something about it immediatly than to whine about it later claiming that I'm cheating. Jump putts have improved my game 2-6 strokes per round.

Oh yeah, @%&!! all of you who say they should be illegal. Watching and good 60ftr jump putt stick is as good as watchin someone crush 500ft drive. Its all good golf to me.

i dont understand why anyone would even think to not like a jump putt, especially the real long ones. they add D to an already controllable shot. i'm usually using a putting stance/jump putt within 100, and sometimes close to double that. i'm not usually trying for a hole-out, just wanting to guarantee i'm left with pretty much a dropin.

asfar as the timing of the release, i think that as long as the last point of contact with the playing surface or supporting point meets the requirements for a valid stance, you should be able to release the disc while in the air. so if you need to leap up two feet and sideways in order to throw through a tiny escape route, then go for it. shouldnt matter where ya land (at least to anyone but you. thorns, ankle twisting debris, etc are your problem. clearing a runup would still be allowed, but clearing a landing zone, even if it behind the lie, would not.)

i dont understand why anyone would even think to not like a jump putt, especially the real long ones. they add D to an already controllable shot. i'm usually using a putting stance/jump putt within 100, and sometimes close to double that. i'm not usually trying for a hole-out, just wanting to guarantee i'm left with pretty much a dropin.

asfar as the timing of the release, i think that as long as the last point of contact with the playing surface or supporting point meets the requirements for a valid stance, you should be able to release the disc while in the air. so if you need to leap up two feet and sideways in order to throw through a tiny escape route, then go for it. shouldnt matter where ya land (at least to anyone but you. thorns, ankle twisting debris, etc are your problem. clearing a runup would still be allowed, but clearing a landing zone, even if it behind the lie, would not.)



OK , then make all the crap disc golfers do legal , like they do now like drinking , smoking cigarettes and pot and doing lines...... :(

[It's hard to make a call unless it's obvious and even then you need someone to second you on it.



Not if I'm a non-playing official. It's still difficult though because I think you need an eye on the hand and an eye on the foot to make the call. Only animal I know of that has that capability is a chameleon.

If my foot was better I still wouldn't jump putt. I do sometimes but only for those 175-185 foot testers.

What would the ruling be on a fadeaway jumper (that is, where you land your jump behind your lie) inside 10m?

My ruling would be

"play me for money and try that stupid ^$*$*& as often as you like".

you can fade away jump if you like provided that when the disc leaves your hand you have at least one support point on the line of play and within 30cm behind the marker.

the clause about demonstrating balance does not preclude you from falling backwards or sideways:


803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off
C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

The fade away is nice on really windy days when you are close to the basket and worried about gusts of wind. Put one foot behind the mini, stretch forward with your other foot. Push off with your lead foot and let the disc drop in. Just have to make sure that lead foot comes down behind the mini.

Thanks Chuck , but I have seen repeatedly , guys jumping inside the circle and if you say anything , they will vandalize your car !!!! :eek:

Most are weak and don't want to make the call , even on some Pro. :(

Sorry about the negative here Chuck , but somebody has to say something before this gets out of control or political.



I have to wonder how often illegal jump putts do occur? I used to think they were very common until I went out and looked at video. The plain fact is that many that look illegal aren't. You can only tell they are legal by looking at video frame by frame.

Now, even though I don't use jump putts, I fully support them. Yes, on occasion someone is going to be right on the border in terms of legality. If you are that close and while running up can still hit that shot, I'm going to give it to you. I see this like a ref calling a foul, if it's close, let them play on. If it's flagrant, give the guy a warning/stroke.

Fact is that the jump putt is a creative, beautiful shot. Someone trying to cheat will be obvious in my opinion and they should be stroked. If they harrange you during the round call them on it and if that doesn't work, go to the TD. It is the job of the PDGA to remove people who cheat and won't accept a warning/stroke. Better off to deal with it upfront than to suffer through a round of it and do terrible anyway.

serious question: did someone complain about this post? cuz i'm more than willing to submit about 1000 that are more offensive (or should i say "actually offensive") that have not received any rulers on the knuckles.

just wondering... not picking a fight. i really did enjoy the post.


No one complained about that post, but there were complaints about immediately previous posts from Don Olow on this topic where he was using homophobic language. The use of "fairy" right after the other posts was the problem.

The rest of it was just me the PDGA member requesting Donny stop what seems to me be an attempt to anger Dave Vincent and start a flame war, as opposed to discussing the jump putt topic.

I hear the term "cheating" way too often in threads dealing with foot faults.

Cheating is a willful and knowing disregard or circumventing of the rules.

I'd venture to say over 95% of all footfaults are unintentional and a high percentage of these unintentional footfaults are also unknown to the player who just committed them.

I believe players who use the jump putt want to do it legally. I think there are many who think they are executing it legally but are not. I think we as players have a responsibility to pay close attention to each other during play and be willing to make the call regardless of what the consequences may be. I would hope that no one would vandalize another player's car or other property. However some may take it personally and give you the evil eye. So be it let's preserve the game's integrity.

And if you're the one being called be mature about it and realize others have a better vantage point. We as players are focused on making a shot when putting it is others in the foursome who can watch our feet and/or release point

I'd venture to say over 95% of all footfaults are unintentional and a high percentage of these unintentional footfaults are also unknown to the player who just committed them.


On fairway runups that miss the mark, I disagree. Most of the time when I point them out in a friendly manner during casual rounds the perpetrators will say something along the lines of "what difference does 1 foot make on a 300 shot???"

That response, to me, indicates that the player is fully aware of the rule but doesn't agree with it and chooses to ignore it because they no one will call them on it and it would cast them 30-50 feet of distance if they followed that rule.

well then thats lame. you as a PDGA member should weight your own feelings about 1% of another member in order to prevent your prejudices from influencing your Rhett_the_Admin role.

i object to your use of the word "flame" and its homophobic connotations. the PDGA must be open to all, not just heteros.

On fairway runups that miss the mark, I disagree. Most of the time when I point them out in a friendly manner during casual rounds the perpetrators will say something along the lines of "what difference does 1 foot make on a 300 shot???"

That response, to me, indicates that the player is fully aware of the rule but doesn't agree with it and chooses to ignore it because they no one will call them on it and it would cast them 30-50 feet of distance if they followed that rule.

[/QUOTE]

there is no excuse for footfaulting on a runup ever.
stepping over the teebox same thing.
you should always make a concious effort to make sure that you dont ever step over the line of play because its illegal
otherwise you can bend the straw till it breaks and see what happens when you get called out

I'd venture to say over 95% of all footfaults are unintentional and a high percentage of these unintentional footfaults are also unknown to the player who just committed them.


On fairway runups that miss the mark, I disagree. Most of the time when I point them out in a friendly manner during casual rounds the perpetrators will say something along the lines of "what difference does 1 foot make on a 300 shot???"

That response, to me, indicates that the player is fully aware of the rule but doesn't agree with it and chooses to ignore it because they no one will call them on it and it would cast them 30-50 feet of distance if they followed that rule.



Thanks Rhett !!!!! See !!! That's what I'm saying. If the players do not call someone on a rules infraction , they will keep on doing it !!!! No matter who !!!! :eek:

Again , as you and I are very well aware of , You have to be within 11 inches behind your mini-marker without touching it.
That's directly behind , not to the side or in front of.

On Putting:
I usually set up my footing stance first , about a inch or so directly behind the mini.
This way I don't touch the marker.

On fairway shots , I set up my footing , like when I go bowling, this way I'm withing 6 inches of my marker on the run up , directly behind ( not to the side like some ) the marker-mini. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

And it does make a difference, because a person who is saying what difference does 1 foot make on a 300 foot shot obviously shows that they have consistently rationalized their indifference on their footing to compensate for their inability to concentrate on the shot and the proper footing. Part of executing a legal 300 foot fairway shot that you're doing a run-up on, includes making sure that your foot is where it's supposed to be upon the release of the disc. Someone who says what difference does it make has given themselves an illegal advantage by eliminating the mental part of the shot that requires you to place your foot in a designated spot.

Thank you !!!! That's what I'm saying :

On Putting:
I usually set up my footing stance first , about a inch or so directly behind the mini.
This way I don't touch the marker.

On Fairway shots , I set up my footing , like when I go bowling, this way I'm withing 6 inches of my marker on the run up , directly behind ( not to the side like some ) the marker-mini. :D

I think because many courses don't have cement tee pads, a general feeling has developed that a fairway shot and tee shot should have the same flexibility for foot placement. However, just like ball golf where you get to place your ball on a tee for your drive, we allow more flexibility off the tee in terms of how accurate your foot position must be on a tee shot versus a fairway shot. I'm not sure this distinction ever gets drilled into new players because they can't accept the difference within the rules (i.e., because you get 4 feet wide and 3m back on the tee you should get the same on the fairway).

I watch people foot fault all the time on long fairway throws. It doesn't bother me much at all. Personally, I do attempt to hit the mark properly, and might actually accomplish it with regularity, but I never feel that I am at any disadvantage. I also don't want the game devolving into an activity where I constantly am burdened with determining if it is 11 inches or 12, or when someone exactly released their throw.

I love the whole foot fault on the fairway discussion. I used to go round with Rhett about this until I actually did some work on it. Rhett was right, it is important, and not doing it gives the player a HUGE advantage; but one thing should be mentioned, even the guys who try and hit that placement sometimes miss, and no one calls it. I've seen it in footage from Worlds, USDGC and other majors. It is rare but it happens. The reality is that the real solution here is the same one that Ultimate uses. Players need to call themselves. It is a matter of pride in Ultimate to self call. The problem here is that there is money on the line and I think that obscures the line between what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.

The problem with the foot fault rule is that it takes hard work to learn it, and hard work to get it right on every drive! It is easy to make mistakes and not even know it. On about 50% of my drives I stand in behind my disc just to make sure I hit my mark! Furthermore, as I mentioned above, even the Pros miss on this sometimes, as can be seen in footage of major events. To make this problem go away one of two things has to happen, either the rule has to be changed, or the rule has to be called, not just against flagrant abusers, but against everyone who makes a mistake. The reality is if you do that you are going to see it cropping up several times at every major event. That is going to make for some screaming and foot pounding, I'm guessing.

How to best address this issue? My goal in tournaments now is to self call; we all make mistakes and unless we are willing to punish ourselves we can't expect others to accept the rules. If you really want to affect change, you have to set the example! I gaurantee if you call a foot fault on yourself, no one is going to say squat if you call it on them.

BTW - if you think you never foot fault, you need to watch more closely. I'm not saying it's common, I'm just saying that I've seen pics of Ken Climo, Steve Rico, Barry Schultz and many other Pros doing it at major events, and none of them were called. In every case I don't think the player even knew.

Point of information....
It is a matter of pride to self call in Ultimate only if it benefits you. Hence, the need for "observers" at the higher levels of competition.

Something to think about...if you start making calls on yourself and no one seconds the calls(which i imagine would happen quite often) then you are left in a situation where in order to hold true to your goal of playing by the rules to a T, you would then be forced to call a courtesy violation on all the players on your card. You would, in that case, get away with breaking a rule yourself and then penalize everyone else on your card. :o

It would be nice if we could get to a place where when someone misses the mark and someone else makes the call, the someone else would not be vilified as a Rules Richard.

sigh

Maybe someday.

Something to think about...if you start making calls on yourself and no one seconds the calls(which i imagine would happen quite often) then you are left in a situation where in order to hold true to your goal of playing by the rules to a T, you would then be forced to call a courtesy violation on all the players on your card. You would, in that case, get away with breaking a rule yourself and then penalize everyone else on your card. :o



I'm good with that! :D

At one point there was a lot of discussion about changing the rule to require the player to stand in behind their mark on fairway throws. This would solve the problem quite effectively.

Point of information....
It is a matter of pride to self call in Ultimate only if it benefits you. Hence, the need for "observers" at the higher levels of competition.



You mean all that bragging they do about this is just self advertising... How dissapointing :(.

Ball golfers alot of the time get put on a pedestal for self-calling also....have you ever seen what happens if they don't self-call ....lmao

It would be nice if we could get to a place where when someone misses the mark and someone else makes the call, the someone else would not be vilified as a Rules Richard.

sigh

Maybe someday.



I was trying just to EXPLAIN the new rules during an event this weekend and I was then called an A HOLE during the lunch break. I also WARNED someone that they were foot faulting I didnt even call them on it and I was called an A HOLE to other players during the lunch break.

I mean seriously I didnt even penalize anyone and I was called an A HOLE. I think that the people breaking the rules are the A HOLES not the people calling the rules violations!!!

I have made a decision that I am going to call the rules this season whether or not people think that im an A HOLE. I figure if I have to play by the rules (which I do) then everyone else should as well. I practice very hard to land behind my mini when I run up on a fairway shot and I stand still on almost ALL upshots so that I am behind my mini at release so I find it unfair that these yahoos who do not practice that get to compete on my level when breaking the rules when clearly they would not be nearly as skilled if they were following the rules. :mad::mad::mad:

when clearly they would not be nearly as skilled if they were following the rules.



I trust this is an opinion held by most people on this thread. On its face, it seems to obviously be true. However, I still question its validity.

Maybe if someone does not give a hoot about hitting their mark, then maybe it is an advantage. However, I for one try to hit my mark, and often do not use any runup, or two steps at most on fairway shots. I can tell you in all honesty that if I miss my mark, my foot work was wrong and my shot suffers. I suspect it is this way for most people.

Therefore, just as I say every year this discussion rises up, it is much ado about nothing. I would argue that is why top players never/rarely look for it, or call it. Because deep down, they think it is not that big of a deal.

However, when someone starts to foot fault to create easier lines, most players are bothered, and IMO, they should be. But on an open fairway, I think the "advantage" y'all are assuming is illusory.

It's probably just too much of a responsibility to put on the players to have to call others. Calling others can negetively effect your own game and having to pay attention to all the other players also can have a negetive effect on yourself as well.

I am in no way saying that people shouldn't call the rules, i have been dubbed a "rules nazi" here locally. i just think that until we are at a point where there are officials watching our every move, then rules infractions are going to go uncalled and those that do call them are going to get labeled a "richard" becasue of the thought that they may just be trying to use rule calling to gain an advantage.

So basically, damned if you do... damned if you dont, i guess.

I disagree and so do our rules of play James.

[qoute] I can tell you in all honesty that if I miss my mark, my foot work was wrong and my shot suffers. I suspect it is this way for most people.

[/QUOTE]

The only reason that your shot suffers when you miss your mark is because you were trying to hit your mark in the first place. If you had no concern for where your foot landed, you would not be having those bad shots. That's an advantage. You have already learned to play by the rules, and it is very dificult for you to see how hard it is to hit your mark for someone that has never tried.

After you practice for a few months on hitting your mark at full speed, you get to where you can do it without having to think much about it. You still must constantly monitor you accuracy after each drive. When I wore cleats, I would always check my release point to make sure it was behind my mini. Now I can only check when there is a surface behind the mini that will take a foot print, but I still check whenever I can.

It would be nice if we could get to a place where when someone misses the mark and someone else makes the call, the someone else would not be vilified as a Rules Richard.

sigh

Maybe someday.



I was trying just to EXPLAIN the new rules during an event this weekend and I was then called an A HOLE during the lunch break. I also WARNED someone that they were foot faulting I didnt even call them on it and I was called an A HOLE to other players during the lunch break.

I mean seriously I didnt even penalize anyone and I was called an A HOLE. I think that the people breaking the rules are the A HOLES not the people calling the rules violations!!!

I have made a decision that I am going to call the rules this season whether or not people think that im an A HOLE. I figure if I have to play by the rules (which I do) then everyone else should as well. I practice very hard to land behind my mini when I run up on a fairway shot and I stand still on almost ALL upshots so that I am behind my mini at release so I find it unfair that these yahoos who do not practice that get to compete on my level when breaking the rules when clearly they would not be nearly as skilled if they were following the rules. :mad::mad::mad:



YEA !!!!!!! Tear 'm a new one Pimp !!!!!! That's what I'm talking about !!!! :D

If they still have a problem , they need to find another sport where cheating , your hands and feet get axed. :eek:

I'm sure you do the same as I. I have busted my @$$ for years to play by the rules and to set a example for those new coming into the Sport. It takes some sacrifice , time and desire to do it right !!!!!

How else are we to create credibility for Potential Sponsors to take our Sport seriously ? :eek:

i sometimes wonder whether it would be in everyone's interest if the PDGA gave TD's some standard lines to read at every player meeting before an event. something worded to praise the importance of playing by our rules and appreciating those who step up and call rules infractions when they occur because it is everyones responsibility to ensure we are all competing under the same limitations which the rules represent.

( Hands clapping here ) :D

Are you sure that the people calling you an ******* even knew about your rules non-call? It seems at least plausible that maybe they were just calling you an *******! :D

i sometimes wonder whether it would be in everyone's interest if the PDGA gave TD's some standard lines to read at every player meeting before an event. something worded to praise the importance of playing by our rules and appreciating those who step up and call rules infractions when they occur because it is everyones responsibility to ensure we are all competing under the same limitations which the rules represent.



I agree Rob. Then again, why could we just make a special announcement when offered the chance?

How exactly would you word it?

This might be a good Q to send to the rules commies.

Point of information....
It is a matter of pride to self call in Ultimate only if it benefits you. Hence, the need for "observers" at the higher levels of competition.



You mean all that bragging they do about this is just self advertising... How dissapointing :(.



Not quite. Once you get down to the local levels, the spirit exists. It's just the big events and Club Series events where you see the self-officiating breakdown into gaining advantages. And to think, usually there is no money on the line in those events...

Point of information....
It is a matter of pride to self call in Ultimate only if it benefits you. Hence, the need for "observers" at the higher levels of competition.



You mean all that bragging they do about this is just self advertising... How dissapointing :(.



Not quite. Once you get down to the local levels, the spirit exists. It's just the big events and Club Series events where you see the self-officiating breakdown into gaining advantages. And to think, usually there is no money on the line in those events...



Yeah, imagine, just competition. What a concept!

i sometimes wonder whether it would be in everyone's interest if the PDGA gave TD's some standard lines to read at every player meeting before an event. something worded to praise the importance of playing by our rules and appreciating those who step up and call rules infractions when they occur because it is everyones responsibility to ensure we are all competing under the same limitations which the rules represent.



I agree Rob. Then again, why could we just make a special announcement when offered the chance?

How exactly would you word it?

This might be a good Q to send to the rules commies.



Nick, for starters i threw this together, but it probably needs some work and could be made tighter and more concise:
<font color="blue">
The PDGA depends upon each player to follow the rules and call rules infractions whenever they arise. Please carry a rulebook and refer to it as necessary to ensure the rules are followed. It is your responsibility to play by the rules and to point out to the group when a rule infraction is observed. Playing by the rules is of key importance for amateurs as well as professionals, and calling rules infractions is the only way to ensure all competitors are held to the same standards. Any disputes should be settled by provisionals if a TD or official is not present to make a ruling and then referred to the TD or official after completion of the round. </font>

i sometimes wonder whether it would be in everyone's interest if the PDGA gave TD's some standard lines to read at every player meeting before an event. something worded to praise the importance of playing by our rules and appreciating those who step up and call rules infractions when they occur because it is everyones responsibility to ensure we are all competing under the same limitations which the rules represent.



I agree Rob. Then again, why could we just make a special announcement when offered the chance?

How exactly would you word it?

This might be a good Q to send to the rules commies.



Nick, for starters i threw this together, but it probably needs some work and could be made tighter and more concise:
<font color="blue">
The PDGA depends upon each player to follow the rules and call rules infractions whenever they arise. Please carry a rulebook and refer to it as necessary to ensure the rules are followed. It is your responsibility to play by the rules and to point out to the group when a rule infraction is observed. Playing by the rules is of key importance for amateurs as well as professionals, and calling rules infractions is the only way to ensure all competitors are held to the same standards. Any disputes should be settled by provisionals if a TD or official is not present to make a ruling and then referred to the TD or official after completion of the round. </font>



I like this idea of a standard script. I think the wording you've developed is a great place to start.

Warning: late night rant follows

As far as the foot faults go, I've called 3 or 4 in tourneys. One was a missed falling putt inside the circle. It was his warning and he was already having a bad round(well out of cashing), but neither of those came into play on my calling him. He got his warning there and rethrew(missed again). I made SURE to state when I caught him the first time that I was going to call it later if I saw it again. He did thank me and was good about it the rest of the round.

As far as self calls go, I've called myself on it once on a drive when I missed the edge of the tee pad trying to get a little extra reach outside to get around an obstacle. Both my first shot and my retee hit the same obstacle and came down in about the same spot. I wasn't the one that actually called it, but I seconded it.

As far as the people who complain about jump putting, I'm just as bad as carrying past my lie when I throw an air bounce(I have weird form on it, just understand that I'm on one foot moving when I throw em) and have been called for foot faults on air bounce shots.

i sometimes wonder whether it would be in everyone's interest if the PDGA gave TD's some standard lines to read at every player meeting before an event. something worded to praise the importance of playing by our rules and appreciating those who step up and call rules infractions when they occur because it is everyones responsibility to ensure we are all competing under the same limitations which the rules represent.



I agree Rob. Then again, why could we just make a special announcement when offered the chance?

How exactly would you word it?

This might be a good Q to send to the rules commies.



Nick, for starters i threw this together, but it probably needs some work and could be made tighter and more concise:
<font color="blue">
The PDGA depends upon each player to follow the rules and call rules infractions whenever they arise. Please carry a rulebook and refer to it as necessary to ensure the rules are followed. It is your responsibility to play by the rules and to point out to the group when a rule infraction is observed. Playing by the rules is of key importance for amateurs as well as professionals, and calling rules infractions is the only way to ensure all competitors are held to the same standards. Any disputes should be settled by provisionals if a TD or official is not present to make a ruling and then referred to the TD or official after completion of the round. </font>



I like this idea of a standard script. I think the wording you've developed is a great place to start.



Thanks for the feedback. I went ahead and sent a copy to the Competition Committee and the Rules Committee via the 'Contact' link for their review.

I think players should pay attention to calling the thousands of foot faults rather than worry about the timing of whether someone has tossed microseconds before or after they left the ground on a jump putt.



If we only allowed a run up on tee shots, that would solve a lot of non calls. Additionally, the scores would go up, at least for a while, as throwing from the fairway would be harder at first. Courses would not need to be as long. Fairway shots would be safer. New skills would have to be learned. Just an idea.

[quoteIf we only allowed a run up on tee shots, that would solve a lot of non calls. Additionally, the scores would go up, at least for a while, as throwing from the fairway would be harder at first. Courses would not need to be as long. Fairway shots would be safer. New skills would have to be learned. Just an idea.

[/QUOTE]


I for one could live with such a rule change.

Unfortunately I think there are a lot of players that have become married to their runup and would pitch quite a stink.

I like that Dave. Of course it would make it easier for those of use who stand still and approach. Now I like it a lot.

If we only allowed a run up on tee shots, that would solve a lot of non calls. Additionally, the scores would go up, at least for a while, as throwing from the fairway would be harder at first. Courses would not need to be as long. Fairway shots would be safer. New skills would have to be learned. Just an idea.




The sport needs progress, not regress.

If we only allowed a run up on tee shots, that would solve a lot of non calls. Additionally, the scores would go up, at least for a while, as throwing from the fairway would be harder at first. Courses would not need to be as long. Fairway shots would be safer. New skills would have to be learned. Just an idea.



The sport needs progress, not regress.



So automatic shock collars for fairway foot faults?

If we only allowed a run up on tee shots, that would solve a lot of non calls. Additionally, the scores would go up, at least for a while, as throwing from the fairway would be harder at first. Courses would not need to be as long. Fairway shots would be safer. New skills would have to be learned. Just an idea.



I like that Dave. Of course it would make it easier for those of use who stand still and approach. Now I like it a lot.



i'd support such a rule. though many would squawk at first, it would make the long holes more challenging. but something needs to be done and i don't know that making the stance rule less restrictive would work. i see people step past or to the side of the mark too often.

If we only allowed a run up on tee shots, that would solve a lot of non calls. Additionally, the scores would go up, at least for a while, as throwing from the fairway would be harder at first. Courses would not need to be as long. Fairway shots would be safer. New skills would have to be learned. Just an idea.



The sport needs progress, not regress.



So automatic shock collars for fairway foot faults?



Yeah...That's the logical progression.

when clearly they would not be nearly as skilled if they were following the rules.



I trust this is an opinion held by most people on this thread. On its face, it seems to obviously be true. However, I still question its validity.

Maybe if someone does not give a hoot about hitting their mark, then maybe it is an advantage. However, I for one try to hit my mark, and often do not use any runup, or two steps at most on fairway shots. I can tell you in all honesty that if I miss my mark, my footwork was wrong and my shot suffers. I suspect it is this way for most people.

Therefore, just as I say every year this discussion rises up, it is much ado about nothing. I would argue that is why top players never/rarely look for it, or call it. Because deep down, they think it is not that big of a deal.

However, when someone starts to foot fault to create easier lines, most players are bothered, and IMO, they should be. But on an open fairway, I think the "advantage" y'all are assuming is illusory.



I would like to address the foot fault issue in terms of what James has written.

There is no question that there are many foot faults and even many by those, who like James, try and hit their mark. I have long felt this rule has an inherent problem in that it is difficult to meet and even more difficult to enforce. The notion of Rhett and Neon that it is simple enough just call the rule is a beautiful yet flawed premise. The reality is that isn't happening and it is unlikely that will change.

Dave Dunipace's proposal is a good one. It isn't new, in fact I think the first time I read it was when Rhett proposed it a year or so ago (it is probably older than that).

The idea of standing in (or eliminating run ups) on fairway drives makes a difficult call an easy one. It eliminates the question on all fairway drives and it also makes the jump putt cleaner and illegal jump putts more easily called. Remember, jump putts would still be legal but you would have to start flat-footed behind your lie.

Rhett and Neon have stated clearly in the past that proper foot placement on a fairway lie makes a huge difference in your throw. For me, and I'd be willing to bet all other players, getting it right, not close to right, 100% of the time requires a huge, throw impacting commitment. Those that think there is no difference are fooling themselves for the sake of convenience. Watch the top Pros do this, they use a different approach on the fairway and a different throwing motion that limits the distance of their throws. Even that is insufficient since by my measure, they still miss their mark on occasion.

No run up on fairway drives is more than a good solution to this problem; it is an elegant solution. First, it requires a different type of throw. In actuality, as written by Dave D. in his seminal work on getting distance, a player can stand in and still get a good throw. This increases the complexity and challenge of the sport, always a good thing. Second, you eliminate the issue of foot faults for all but drives from the T. It is just too easy to spot problems period. Third, you make shorter courses more relevant. The simple fact is that by limiting the distance on second throws, you make 800-foot holes the equivalent of 1000-foot holes as they play under today's rules structure. While this may seem trivial, the plain and simple fact is that in urban parks, acreage is at a premium. This rule change makes some courses that are now dated, much more effective. Fourth, it starts to address one of the credibility gaps this sport has. While credibility gaps may or may not be important, there is no question that a player obeying the rules is at a disadvantage to one not playing by the rules. Why would I want to play at any event where I know a guy on my card is playing with less of handicap? Why would I want to obey the rules if I know that certain rules are being, and will be ignored?

Finally, I think the PDGA can really take a step towards a better game by seriously considering this rule change. If for no other reason than by looking at how often it comes up here.

If we only allowed a run up on tee shots, that would solve a lot of non calls. Additionally, the scores would go up, at least for a while, as throwing from the fairway would be harder at first. Courses would not need to be as long. Fairway shots would be safer. New skills would have to be learned. Just an idea.



I like that Dave. Of course it would make it easier for those of use who stand still and approach. Now I like it a lot.



i'd support such a rule. though many would squawk at first, it would make the long holes more challenging. but something needs to be done and i don't know that making the stance rule less restrictive would work. i see people step past or to the side of the mark too often.



And how often do you call the players on it, Rob? (not singling you out, just a rhetorical question)

I, too, think such a rule change would be extreme and certainly would meet with more criticism and resistance than any other rule change possibly could. It would be equivalent to the NBA banning running lay-ups and dunks so refs can more easily call traveling violations (many basketball purists would say traveling doesn't get called enough...kinda like foot-faults). In both cases, the solution isn't to change rules and the way the game is played to make it easier to call, it's to call the rules AS THEY ARE NOW.

If the people that like/support Dave D.'s idea went out and called more violations when they see them, there'd be far less need for such a drastic change. If more actual violations were called, more people would pay attention to their own feet and reduce actual instances of foot-faulting.

To tell the truth, if fairway run-ups were ever banned, it wouldn't really hurt my game much...I rarely run-up on fairway shots. It's mainly because I'm a klutz with a bad knee, but also because I feel far more confident throwing from a stand-still than running up, hitting my mark, and making a good throw. I'd rather lose the extra 30-40 feet I might get with a run-up than to foot-fault, even if no one in the group even cares enough to call it if it happens. But I still wouldn't advocate such a drastic change to the game, even if I could benefit from it in the short-term.

--Josh

I think players should pay attention to calling the thousands of foot faults rather than worry about the timing of whether someone has tossed microseconds before or after they left the ground on a jump putt.



If we only allowed a run up on tee shots, that would solve a lot of non calls. Additionally, the scores would go up, at least for a while, as throwing from the fairway would be harder at first. Courses would not need to be as long. Fairway shots would be safer. New skills would have to be learned. Just an idea.


I am a big supporter of that idea, and I've even put in a lot of time working on landing my fairway runup.

The easiest way to implement it would be to use the 10-meter putt language on all shots except tee-shots.

The inside 10meter putting rule would only stop follow-thrus not runups. Can you explain what you mean cause i may be misunderstanding what you are saying.

Lyle makes a lot of good points. Dave D alluded to the theory that banning the fairway run up would result in fewer injuries. This too is a very valid point.

I'd be all for it.

It would probably help the pace of play as well. As the rule stands now players take a good bit of time rehearsing their runup.

One reason FF's don't get called more often is that many times there aren't two players in a good position to make the call. Why? Because we tend to branch out as we walk towards our own lies. With standing fairway shots a FF would be a lot easier to call even from 40-50' away. Not only that, the player who just footfaulted would usually realize it immediately and you wouldn't have the point of contention as you do now.

I think in the short term it would be a tough pill to swallow, but long term it would benefit us all.

Dave D alluded to the theory that banning the fairway run up would result in fewer injuries. This too is a very valid point.




I am not entirely sure I agree with that. I envision alot of shoulder, knee, ankle and hip injuries from players trying to get the extra torque without being able to get the added forward momentum to get a good follow-thru. This is even more an issue if what Rhett is saying is that there would be NO follow-thru at all. IMO

One reason FF's don't get called more often is that many times there aren't two players in a good position to make the call. Why? Because we tend to branch out as we walk towards our own lies. With standing fairway shots a FF would be a lot easier to call even from 40-50' away. Not only that, the player who just footfaulted would usually realize it immediately and you wouldn't have the point of contention as you do now.

I think in the short term it would be a tough pill to swallow, but long term it would benefit us all.



i agree. most Foot Faults are not called and when they are called more often than not it seems that the calling of it is considered by the majority to be a bigger problem than the rules infraction itself. :eek: while those are teaching opportunities in theory, in actuality they tend to go unrealized.

there are two answers as i see it:

1. making the placement less restrictive (behind the mark within 60 cm in back of the marker and within 30 cm to either side of the LOP)

2. requiring that all throws subsequent to teeing off must occur with one support point remaining directly behind the marker and on the LOP.

the first approach leads to the same problems as we have now, though it would reduce their quantity and might make people less resistant to calling (and seconding) infractions.

the second approach would yield a lot of the benefits already mentioned and would make the call much easier and trangressing the rule much less likely.

with this second option i think something said above is worth repeating:


I think in the short term it would be a tough pill to swallow, but long term it would benefit us all.

The easiest way to implement it would be to use the 10-meter putt language on all shots except tee-shots.



Of course that whacks jump putts with the same rule. Beautiful. :D
Judging from this thread that just might cause more complaints than no longer being able to do a run-up.

Often times your fairway lie is among rocks, sticks, uneven ground, etc. I believe you would have far fewer ankle injuries if players weren't running and stepping into their shots.

Besides, the more forward bodyweight momentum you have the greater the potential for injury. If you practice the stand and deliver shot you can develop an amazing amount of power without all the forward momentum.

Dave D's suggestion didn't mention anything amount stopping a follow through. As long as you were outside 10M I'm sure stepping past one's lie after release would be permitted as it is now.

I dont deny the dangers of fairway runups. I just wonder, if by not having a fairway run up, you decrease the chance of some injuries but increase the chances of others.Just not sure there would be LESS injuries becasue of that. (i broke my ankle and shredded some tendons on a short tee shot last year and I am picturing in my mind the added strain on that ankle from not running up).

BTW, the Jump Putt needs to stay no matter what, even if that means to insert in the rules that you can jump then putt from outside X meters. I would prefer it wasnt that way becasue I like the added challenge of getting it right but i would support a rule that allowed a jump putt of all kinds if that is what it took to eliminate the uncertainty of the legality of that shot.

The major problem with extending the 10m rule would be the inability of a player to adequately stop any forward momentum without the benefit of a follow-through. That effort should lead to more injuries.

The easiest way to implement it would be to use the 10-meter putt language on all shots except tee-shots.



Of course that whacks jump putts with the same rule. Beautiful. :D
Judging from this thread that just might cause more complaints than no longer being able to do a run-up.


Well......i don't have a problem with jump putts at all, so let's be clear on that. :)

A lot of the jump-putts I see executed do indeed have some sort of "walk up" element to them. The 60 footers usually have a standing start, but the 100 footers that I see typically have a walk-up to them.

How do you legislate the difference between "runup" and "walk up"? The proposed "keep a supporting within 30cm on the LOP for the entire throwing motion" thing would indeed outlaw a lot of the most exciting jump putts.

So if you are going to outlaw them anyway, I still think the "demonstrate balance before advancing towards the target" language is the easiest to write and enforce.


Now that I read all that, I would much rather see us enforce the current stance rules as they are now, than outlaw jump putts.

I would not want to stop a follow through, as that might be harmful to joints. I am not advocating this rule either. Just discussing. I feel the best of all worlds would be that everyone would call the foot faults. Reality is, hardly anyone does. That has been the reality for almost 30 years that I have played.

I sincerely hope that the rules committee does not water-down the sport anymore than it already has.

The major problem with extending the 10m rule would be the inability of a player to adequately stop any forward momentum without the benefit of a follow-through. That effort should lead to more injuries.


Well, the smart player would not runup at full speed since there would be no way to stop from advancing past the lie. It is perfectly feasable to "stand and deliver" with a full follow-through motion without advancing past the lie. "Follow-though" does not equal "advance past the lie".

But then again we have players that will break that their throwing hands trying to throw full power when they are stuck in tight woods instead of making the safe and smart play of eating a stroke by pitching out. So yes people would probably hurt themselves by running full bore and trying to stop on a dime.

The easiest way to implement it would be to use the 10-meter putt language on all shots except tee-shots.



Of course that whacks jump putts with the same rule. Beautiful. :D
Judging from this thread that just might cause more complaints than no longer being able to do a run-up.



how about language that says you must have at least one support point remain on the LOP until just before releasing the disc in order to disallow run-ups (and eliminate foot placement faults) and opening up the language to let people release the disc after lifting the plant foot or support point but prior to landing (enabling jump putts, follow thrus, etc.) if they are outside 10 meters?

- - - -

I feel the best of all worlds would be that everyone would call the foot faults. Reality is, hardly anyone does. That has been the reality for almost 30 years that I have played.



And i have no doubt that will continue to be the way until there are officials watching our every move. There is room for improvement on the players part about calling rules but I don't see players calling other players as the way to get everyone to strictly play by the rules.

We should be pushing for more non-playing officials at events. That is the best thing that could happen for our sport as far as strictly enforced rules. Are we there yet, I don't think so, but I think it is something that organizers need to start thinking more about imo.

We should be pushing for more non-playing officials at events. That is the best thing that could happen for our sport as far as strictly enforced rules. Are we there yet, I don't think so, but I think it is something that organizers need to start thinking more about imo.


I hate to be pessimist, but I think you'll get about as many volunteers for that kind of abuse as you currently have calling stance violations!

Are we there yet, I don't think so,




I hate to be pessimist, but I think you'll get about as many volunteers for that kind of abuse as you currently have calling stance violations!



I dont think we will be there until we get past the "volunteer" thing but that is no reason to ignore the fact that we need non-playing officials out on the course calling the shots.

Can they be pretty ladies ?

I think y'all underestimate how difficult it is to determine a close foot fault.

A mini can be moved by the rotation of the foot. One must determine when the exact release occured.

A rotating foot might be on the LOP at one moment and not at the next. Which moment was the release?

Sure, some are so egregious that the call is easy, but others are harder than an umpire's call on a bang bang play at first.

Even when we get officials (Scott is right that this is the only time the rule will be enforced), it is not going to be an easy call for an official. Even if there were officials everywhere, some officials will call it, and some won't. Inequity will still exist and some tournaments will be won or lost on the decision to discriminate between centimeters or inches. Is this really progress?

If the membership, or RC decides that this is a real problem (I still maintain it is not), then Dave's suggestion seems preferrable when compared to officials on every card, and watching every throw.

jump putt should not be in our sport. It's bad for the game. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ;)

I dont underestimate how hard it is to see a close foot fault. In the case of the jump putt it is nearly impossible to see most of the time in my experience. The fact remains that we cant go off changing rules to compensate for our lack of effort/resources to get the proper people on the course to call these rules. Expecting the player to make all the calls is too much to ask for. I realize at this time in our sport we can't/won't be getting officials out to handle that part of the game but that is no reason to ignore the fact that we need to start thinking about it more and pushing for it.

" Hey look , I can Fly "..................says the drunk guy on the ledge of a 20 story building."

I have seen players , when Jump putting , kick their mini-marker on the release.
We all need to stop the insanity.

Jump putting is OK outside 70 feet , just like stumbling out of a bar at 2:30 am. :eek:

Players look out of control when they jump putt, and 90 % of the time are foot faults :(

90 % of the time are foot faults



Prove it /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

Players look out of control when they jump putt, and 90 % of the time are foot faults :(



Wow !!!! 90% are cheating ?

YES !!!!!!! I WIN THEN !!!!!!!!! :D

Only if you call it then that person is all #$*&$! off. just remove all jump putts and the problem goes away /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Back in the day there was no jump putt, to bad those where the days :D

Scott, I have no problems with officials, but let's be realistic. The rules have to be practical. We are nowhere near having officials on every card, so that they can monitor every throw.

Even if we did, I still maintain the call will be made unevenly. Why? It is just the nature of the call. Barry and Kenny aren't likely to miss by a foot. They are much more likely to miss by an inch. Then the official, who cannot realistically focus on both the release and the foot, must determine if they want to make that close call. Then the PDGA must attempt (even though it will be unachievable) to make sure that every official is at least trying to discriminate in the same way.

In other words, a whole lot of time, effort, and resources just to "right" the advantage gained by someone missing their mark by an inch or so?

Only if you call it then that person is all #$*&$! off. just remove all jump putts and the problem goes away /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Remove ALL Jump Putts !!!!!!! Where do we petition the PDGA rules committee !!!!! :D

I got it! How about making a new marker disc that has grip on top. Make the rule that the player must step ON the marker when releasing the disc. That should be fairly easy to see :)

Jerry where's that proof? :)

I don't care about those that miss by an inch, the competitive advantage isn't gained by hitting the mark exactly, it is gained by ignoring the mark entirely. Start by calling only the flagrant foot faults that are off by a foot or more. When all of those are called, and players start paying more attention, maybe we can start breaking out the micrometers and verifying the .025" misses.

I don't care about those that miss by an inch, the competitive advantage isn't gained by hitting the mark exactly, it is gained by ignoring the mark entirely. Start by calling only the flagrant foot faults that are off by a foot or more. When all of those are called, and players start paying more attention, maybe we can start breaking out the micrometers and verifying the .025" misses.


What he said.

I think this thread has drifted from JPs.

I mentioned footfaults because I think that footfaults are committed with a high frequency in association with jump putting. The fairway FFs are a drift from the original subject but I believe jump putting FFs occur at a greater incidence than do fairway FFs. With calling jump putting FFs you have the added timing issue to account for, which makes it a tougher call.But in either case under the current rules you're likely to get a sense of denial from the offending player. In light of this observation it appears that prohibiting fairway run ups and jump putts would be a simple solution. I know this proposal would infuriate some players, but I don't see either practice as central or neccessary to our sport.

Except that it would be about the same as limiting ball golfers to irons except on the tee. On a lot of courses and holes, not an issue, but on longer/tougher courses a real change to the game.

Another way to help give yourself some margin for error, is to use the speed of play rules, and don't mark your lie with a mini on long fairway shots. If you are concentrating on getting your foot in the right place without looking down, it's a lot more likely you'll end up behind a disc than a little mini. I guess I should say that this could help decrease the percentages that you'll footfault, if nothing else.

You cant eliminate jump putts without eliminating follow-thrus....VERY bad idea to eliminate follow-thrus imo

the line you must hit with your foot is an imaginary line that runs thru the center of the disc whether a mini or not it is still the same spot. If your foot hits behind the outside edge of a full size disc then you just foot faulted.

--

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.

Definitions-

Line of Play: The imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through the center of the marker disc and beyond. This line has no thickness; therefore one support point must be directly behind the center of the marker.

You cant eliminate jump putts without eliminating follow-thrus....VERY bad idea to eliminate follow-thrus imo



Scott,

I don't see this as a debate. No one (other than maybe Rhett in a passing comment) has said anything about prohibiting follow throughs. I know I haven't. I know Dave D hasn't. I don't remember Aviar X, Donny,James, Nick or Gary propose limiting follow throughs (except within 10 M).

Are you debating yourself?

Not debating myself. How do you eliminate jump putts without eliminating follow-thrus??

You can limit jump putts by eliminating a run-up but you cannot eliminate jump putts without eliminating follow-thrus.

[note...i think i have lost myself in multiple conversations....lmao]

The footfaulting that most often occurs in jump putts is not advancing in front of the lie after release (after all it is perfectly legal outside 10M).

The most common problem is releasing the disc after the supporting point has become airborne (thus no longer a supporting point).

Whether you choose to jump putt or take a run up or not, you are always allowed to advance past your mark after the release of the disc provided you're outside 10M.

If you're inside 10M there is no need for a "follow through" advance as it takes very little effort/momentum to throw a disc 10m.

Please tell me who is this person that is running an "eliminate follow through" campaign? I have yet to read any posts that call for banning forward advance after release(outside 10m). Which is why your repeated posts addressing "eliminating follow through" seem out of place.

Eliminating run-ups in the fairway is an interesting Idea I have never thought of. I think it would send quite a few people over the edge though. I wouldn't really mind much, but don' t take away the jump putt.... it's fun hoppin' around out there and banging chains.

By the way I "follow through" as you put it on most tee shots, some midrange shots and occasionally on longer (50-80')putts. But I have never jump putted. So in my own game you could say I've eliminated jump putts but I continue to follow through when it is practical and legal.

Are we communicating yet?

It was someone (not sure who) advocating the use of the rules inside 10m for outside 10m.

Those rules do not allow for a follow-through without a falling putt.

It was someone (not sure who) advocating the use of the rules inside 10m for outside 10m.

Those rules do not allow for a follow-through without a falling putt.


It was me! And of course it's not in the current rules because we were discussing changes to the rules.

I will say again: advancing past your lie does not equal a follow through! You can use the "stand and deliver" throw with a full twisting follow-through where your throwing arm ends up behind you without advancing past the lie.

It was someone (not sure who) advocating the use of the rules inside 10m for outside 10m.


I suggested this because I can't recall ever seeing anyone use a runup on a putt within 10 meters of the target. It seems to me that this rule that disallows advancing past the lie is what limits runups.

I don't know how you can eliminate fairway runups without also making the most exciting jump putts also illegal, because the best long-range jump-putts include some kind of "walk-up" type of runup.

I jump putt without a run-up. It just requires a "rocking" start from a normal putting position. The weight shift from front to back to front leads to a jump past the mini.

It would eliminate walking putts, but not true jump putts.

[quoteI will say again: advancing past your lie does not equal a follow through! You can use the "stand and deliver" throw with a full twisting follow-through where your throwing arm ends up behind you without advancing past the lie.

[/QUOTE]

I agree with this statement. I even think in most situations I have better control and balance by not stepping past my lie.

However, I see no reason to ban the practice of advancing past your mark after release. For one you don't gain any (unfair) advantage, and second it's sometimes necessary if you're playing from a precarious or awkward lie.

Somehow Scott got his panties bunched in a wad over your comment.

My panties are not in a bunch. I take it you dont understand I can jump putt without a runup. You said something about eliminating jump putts not me. Well in order to eliminate a jump putt completely you would have to eliminate follow-thrus. I am not saying anyone siad that we should eliminate follow thrus(although Rhett did alude to that earlier) just that in order to get rid of jump putts you would HAVE to get rid of follow-thrus.

Bottomline if you are allowed to follow-thru then the jump putt is going to be allowed. I dont know how to make myself any clearer...lol

People like to see good jump putts. They're crowd-pleasers. From that standpoint, I don't think we'll ever eliminate them, or at least, I wouldn't be in favor of it. A well-executed jump putt is a thing of beauty. Dave Feldberg and Cam Todd probably have the best ones I've seen.

Most good jump putts have the jump mostly as a follow-through. If you ever see a jump putt where you can CLEARLY tell that the supporting point (foot) is off the ground when the disc is released, go ahead and call the foot fault. I've seen and called a few like that over the years, but normally, it's not a good putt when you jump up in the air, then release the disc. I'd think you'd lose most of your momentum trying it that way.

Chap

^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly. I completly agree.

People like to see good jump putts. They're crowd-pleasers. From that standpoint, I don't think we'll ever eliminate them, or at least, I wouldn't be in favor of it. A well-executed jump putt is a thing of beauty. Dave Feldberg and Cam Todd probably have the best ones I've seen.

Most good jump putts have the jump mostly as a follow-through. If you ever see a jump putt where you can CLEARLY tell that the supporting point (foot) is off the ground when the disc is released, go ahead and call the foot fault. I've seen and called a few like that over the years, but normally, it's not a good putt when you jump up in the air, then release the disc. I'd think you'd lose most of your momentum trying it that way.

Chap



Precisely!

People like to see good jump putts. They're crowd-pleasers. From that standpoint, I don't think we'll ever eliminate them, or at least, I wouldn't be in favor of it. A well-executed jump putt is a thing of beauty. Dave Feldberg and Cam Todd probably have the best ones I've seen.

Most good jump putts have the jump mostly as a follow-through. If you ever see a jump putt where you can CLEARLY tell that the supporting point (foot) is off the ground when the disc is released, go ahead and call the foot fault. I've seen and called a few like that over the years, but normally, it's not a good putt when you jump up in the air, then release the disc. I'd think you'd lose most of your momentum trying it that way.

Chap



Precisely!



I agree with the above. I think John nailed it (like a 60 foot jump putt :D) when he wrote "it's not a good putt when you jump up in the air, then release the disc. I'd think you'd lose most of your momentum trying it that way." The overwhelming majority of jump putts I've seen use the jump exactly as John describes it above: as a follow-through.

One possiblitiy of eliminating run-ups but allowing jump putts whould be to modify 803.04 with the bolded text below:


PROPOSED: 030.04A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface for more than 3 seconds on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E) ; and,



Or something to that effect. The idea being the supporting point must be able to be clearly checked by being in place long enough. The release can be at any point while the supporting point is in contact with the surface. This allows must jump putts to still be good as long as position is established.

He is right if you are releaseing the disc in the air you have lost all of your leg power and thus you will be putting with all arm.



That's from page three of this thread. Wow, this debate has gone full circle. I think that there are some on here that are looking for support in making calls on illegal jump putts. If you want to call it, call it.

The root of the problem in all rulings on the disc golf course is the disruption it causes amongst players that can't handle the confrontation of having someone calling a rule on them. It becomes an issue between the players (i.e. he's "working" me, or trying to get in my head). GET OVER IT! :mad:

I played tennis for many of my younger years through the college level, and most matches were self officiated. Do you think that every time a guy called a serve out on me, I took it personally? There are WAY too many disc golfers out there that are HUGE confrontation avoiders. We all need to learn the rules, be certified officials, and realize that the rules are there for a reason, and we can't adjust them because we can't make the calls properly, or because we're scurrrrrrrrred to.

IMO, if someone gives me any flack for making an obvious call, it's a courtesy warning, whether I'm seconded or not. Trust me, there are many players that will pick up on your anger, and feed off of it, so it's best to keep it to yourself, and move on. End of story. I've seen someone make a call on someone due to the fact that they just made a call on them, and that's just plain immature and ridiculous.

Let's all clean it up, and come to the realization that the rules are there to abide by, and when you pay between $40 and $120 to compete in something, you're going to have to be sure that someone is making sure you're following them. Not because they don't like you, it's becuase we're all playing by the same rules, and nobody deserves exceptions.

Last but not least, eliminating jump putting would indeed be a disgrace to the sport of disc golf. :D

If jump putting is illegal it should be made legal.

Using the basketball analogy again. One of the most fun shots in the game is the dunk...but technically isn't that offensive goal tending? The players hand is inside of the cylinder.

I say reword the rules to allow something like this: support must remain in contact inside of 10 meters, but outside of 10 meters last support touching must have been 30cm directly behind your lie. This would allow for some jump putts over obstacles (though i dont think it would do many players much good). Also if your worried about someone taking a running leap from 33 feet, covering 10 feet and only having to putt 23 feet (again i dont think it would increase accuracy) you could change the no jump putt rule to 15 meters (who needs to jump putt from 45 feet or so anyway?)

This game is still young and should adopt ideas that work. Watching an 80 foot jump putt getting canned is awesome. Its better than seeing a 550 foot drive.

At the Zboaz open Berl nailed a huge jump put with athority in the final 9...the crowed erupted. On another hole Nolan Grider CRUSHED a huge drive...people applauded and were amazed, but there was not the eruption of hoots, howls and applause that there were for Berl's jump putt.

Depending on the lie I use a straddle jump quite often in the 45 ft range. I stand in a straddle....then push the putt forward as my non-supporting foot raises...release....leap off the supporting foot and land on the other foot.(when i land it looks kinda like i just threw a normal putt from about 3-4 ft in front of my lie) Do I have to do it, nah, but it is really effective, especially when you have a low ceiling or a tight gap you need to punch through.

Anyway, the jump putt, in all forms, needs to stay for the reasons Chappy said above.

I personally don't care if jump putts are allowed. However. I do think the distance needs to be reevaluated. 10 meters ain't that far.

Also, I want to somewhat question this idea that jump putts are crowd pleasers. I would agree that long putts are crowd pleasers, and most successful long putts these days are jump putts; but a non-jump-putt long putt is just as exciting as a jump-putt long putt. To me at least, there is nothing about the act of jumping that makes it crowd pleasing. It is purely the distance/time in air/anticipation thing that makes it exciting.

Additionally, related to my concern about the 10 meter threshold, I find absolutely no excitement when someone hits a 34 footer using a jump putt. It ain't that far. That distance should be well within the physical range of a skilled, non-jumping putter.

Jump putting if executed correctly is currently legal.

The problems that arise are from all the golfers who do not jump putt correctly and when you tell them they are releasing after their supporting point has lost contact with the playing surface they deny it and bad blood ensues.

A dunk is not offensive goal tending. Goal tending occurs after a shot has been released. A dunk is a shot that is released over the cylinder. That is legal. Now if the player's teamate released a jumpshot he couldn't touch the ball over the cylinder.Understand the difference?

A long putt that goes in is exciting whether it's from a standard putt, jump putt, straddle or whatever. I'm not sure that a successful 80' jump putt is any more exciting than any other successful 80 footer.

If all jump putters executed their putts correctly,legally and gracefully there would be no debate/discussion. Unfortunately there are many that butcher the shot, flailing out of control releasing well after they've left their mark and then raise a stink about it if you call them on it, saying you need proof to make a call.

For putters who do it well it's a non-issue. I just think it's gotten out of hand. I've seen guys run 20 feet up to their mark jump and their momentum carries them another 25 feet past their lie. When a guy does this from 40 feet and ends up 15' from the pin it looks awful. Of course many land on their face and do a quasi somersault after landing. All this drama over a 40 foot putt with no obstacles in the way. That sort of image just doesn't seem to project a professional image to me. If I were an ESPN producer and saw footage of such displays I think I'd be less likely to take a risk on "frisbee golf'.

Interesting issue. I can't help but hear "We need to make putting more difficult", along side the "We need to keep the jump putt in the game." Sounds antithetical to me. From my point of view, I like jump putting, I like what it adds to disc golf. I dislike that it is illegal, despite what some claim. Even though the "hit" or snap may happen while the player's foot is still on the ground, having seen enough photos and first hand viewing, I am fairly certain, the disc is still in contact with most of the player's hands after their foot has left the ground. That being said, I think the rule should be changed to match the reality. Something like: "There should be no discernable time between the release and the jump." This to allow the putt to be legal, but not to allow the jump five to teen feet, then putt. That would be dangerous at times. A basketball analogy would be the comparison of the jump shot to the set shot. A set shot is done from the ground as the player jumps. A jump shot is done from the air after the player has jumped. I think we should allow set shot type putts, but not jump shot type putts. In both cases, the player's feet have left the ground.

I dislike that it is illegal, despite what some claim. Even though the "hit" or snap may happen while the player's foot is still on the ground, having seen enough photos and first hand viewing, I am fairly certain, the disc is still in contact with most of the player's hands after their foot has left the ground.



While I dont agree with you on well executed jump putts, I did just see an incriminating clip of KC at the Memorial making a jump straddle(like the one I described earlier) :D

I've only been playing for about 2 years, but have not had the "pleasure" of seeing the type of jump putt you are describing. :)
Hopefully ESPN would be reviewing footage from pro players and I doubt if there are any of those executing this bumbling style jump putt.

There are always going to be people who cant take being wrong and will argue with you to no end no matter what infraction you call on them. I also have to give the jump putter some slack because in most cases even a semi-well performed jump putt is too close to call with the naked eye.

I do agree with you and Dave, that many jump putts are illegal (even in the upper echelons of our sport). That is why i too believe we should rewrite the rule to address this and allow this.

Dave i have to disagree with you in another aspect though...putting should not be any more difficult. :D

I've only been playing for about 2 years, but have not had the "pleasure" of seeing the type of jump putt you are describing. :)
Hopefully ESPN would be reviewing footage from pro players and I doubt if there are any of those executing this bumbling style jump putt.

There are always going to be people who cant take being wrong and will argue with you to no end no matter what infraction you call on them. I also have to give the jump putter some slack because in most cases even a semi-well performed jump putt is too close to call with the naked eye.

I do agree with you and Dave, that many jump putts are illegal (even in the upper echelons of our sport). That is why i too believe we should rewrite the rule to address this and allow this.

Dave i have to disagree with you in another aspect though...putting should not be any more difficult. :D



That ^ is not my opinion, it's just one of the things I have heard. I personally think putting is very hard, and I am amazed at how well the cashing pros putt. I also believe that is why they cash, when others don't.

I haven't heard any argument about trying to make putting more difficult. That certainly is not a goal of mine.

Regarding your basketball analogy I'd like to point out that a jumpshot is typically executed by jumping straight up or occassionally backwards as in a fadeaway jumper. A jumpshot with forward momentum will often result in a collision with the defender and the offensive player could then be called for an offensive foul.

I'm not trying to nitpick but my problem with a rule change which allows a player to release the disc after they've left the ground is that with the likely forward momentum that most jump putters employ, this would have them releasing the disc ahead of their lie. I tend to be a stickler about the play it where it lies concept of golf.

Proposed rule change

If jump putting is such a vital part of the game (which is a hard sell for me), then I would be more in favor of extending the 30cm to 1m behind your mark and require the jump putter to land no closer to the hole than his mini.

So the acrobatic putter could release the disc before becoming airborne or during flight it wouldn't matter just so long as his supporting point is within 1m of his lie on the LOP and he lands no closer to the hole than his mark.

This makes footfaults more cut and dry and removes the timing issue. All the while it affords the putter up to one meter of forward momentum. And of course after release he could step past the mark provided he was outside the 10M zone.

Whaty'all make of that?

I wouldn't care how much forward momentum he wanted as long as he landed behind his mini before he followed through.

Sounds like a stage for serious "walk-through" putting.

I haven't heard any argument about trying to make putting more difficult. That certainly is not a goal of mine.




The making putting more difficult arguments come from the "par" discussions. Making putting more difficult will increase the ATG (shots around the green) factor and pull it more in line with ball golf. But thats a whole other discussion and can be found in the "What is Par" thread or numerous threads in the "PDGA Course Evaluations Program" forum.

I think you have to put some sort of limit on it. If you allowed 20 meters behind your lie it would change the game to where you would use it to get around obstacles. Besides if you're too far back you can't accurately determine the LOP.

I think 1 meter is adequate without substancially giving the player a different lie.

I wouldn't care how much forward momentum he wanted as long as he landed behind his mini before he followed through.



THANK YOU !!!!! That's all I'm saying. :D

I have to say my friend started this and it is obvious that this issue is very debated. Hopefuly the PDGA looks at this and can take some things from it. The voice given to everyone on this board is awsome and should be taken advantage of when it comes to the sport we all love to play.

I think most players share a long term goal for the sport that includes, among other things, making it spectator friendly. A big part of that is making it exciting to watch. Big time jump putts are just about the most exciting thing to watch in disc golf (except maybe a sick ace from way out). It demonstrates an awesome balance of finesse and athleticism.

Get rid of jump putting and you might as well resign yourself to keeping disc golf as a "smallish" sport with little spectator appeal and little incentive for large corporate sponsorship.

Get rid of jump putting and you might as well resign yourself to keeping disc golf as a "smallish" sport with little spectator appeal and little incentive for large corporate sponsorship.



I find it hard to believe that the future growth and mass appeal of our sport is dependent upon the jump putt. Even so, I don't see any reason to make them illegal.

while we are at it lets make the overhand, roller, forehand, and upside down shots all illegal to, now you must throw every shot flat footed with no run up and no follow through with a backhand shot (we will be considering outlawing the anhyzer release angle too)
:D:D:D

Back a couple of days ago when the discussion was more focused on foot faults I dropped a line to Carlton about the RCs interpretation of the rule. I was specifically interested in the idea of eliminating the run up on fairway drives. Carlton's (the RCs) reply is very clear and gives an nice approach to a sticky problem.

James wins, Rhett, Neon and myself lose... :D


Hello Lyle!,

Thanks for writing.

This idea has been considered practically every year by every version of the rules committee. It's never gained much steam.

Three points bear quick witness to this situation:

1) we're self officiated. No one likes to call rules on another competitor.

2) Looking at golf rules (not disc golf rules) as long as the player doesn't get any closer to the hole, they have some flexibility.

3) Throwing a disc requires more body movement than hitting a golf ball. In disc golf we have the least foot placement requirements on generally the longest throws (the drive). Since many courses are adding legitimate par 4s and above, we're seeing a bigger demand for power throws from the fairway. Thinking of the teeing foot placement flexibility allowed, we're actually leaning towards being more lenient on fairway shots. In truth, we obviously haven't codified same, because we feared that this would only make a bad situation (calling/not calling foot faults) worse.

In short, the RC has no intentions right now of eliminating run ups. We think they are an exciting, integral part of the game. We also think that we're a VERY young sport and that we'll eventually have non-playing officials on every hole. Once we do that, the "call burden" will fall on their shoulders, removing the burden from the competitors, thus allowing for much more even and measured officiating...with no retaliatory in-group backlash.

Also, we tend to believe that there is a kernel of truth in the theory that absent of any obstacles directly in front of the golfer, there is very little actual advantage to be gained by foot faulting on a wide-open fairway power shot. Sure, those that are precise about it drain some focus from shot execution into the exact foot placement execution. But the difference is fairly difficult to measure and thus may not actually be as great as generally believed (if it exists at all!).

Throw in the fact that such long fairway bombs are an incredible fan favorite, we see very little reason to eliminate run ups. If players are adamant about the advantages gained, then they can certainly follow the sounds advice of Rhett and Nick. "Call 'em if you see 'em." That's what I do. It's rare, but I do call some.

Me, I generally don't call foot faults unless they're on the tee or a person is faulting to improve their angle to hole (circumventing an obstacle).

Personally, I like no run up, because it suits my game. I rarely take more than a 2 step and I can throw almost just as far standing still. However, there's very little fun to be had in the "limited body movement" throwing game that'd we'd have if we nixed run ups. To change a great part of the game (power fairway shots)
because a pretty good rule (stance violations) doesn't get called often enough due to the structure of our present mode of officiating seems to be flawed reasoning to me. (We're simply not missing out on millions of fans OR losing tons of competitive golfers due to this as a "credibility" issue.)

Too, we don't get rid of the problem by eliminating run ups...folks will still pivot with their forward foot and touch their mark before release. I know, I know that doesn't seem too bad, but it's still a foot fault and folks would still avoid making that call.


Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman




"Lyle O. Ross" <[email protected]>
03/14/2006 12:39 PM
To <[email protected]>
cc
Subject Fairway run ups







Hey Carlton,

The semi-annual discussion of foot faults on fairway drives in now on going
on the PDGA web site. I'm wondering what is the possibility that the Rules
Committee would ever consider a rule change that would include no fairway
run ups? Here is the test of one of my recent posts on the topic that will
give you a little more info.





when clearly they would not be nearly as skilled if they
were following the rules.



I trust this is an opinion held by most people on this thread. On its face,
it seems to obviously be true. However, I still question its validity.

Maybe if someone does not give a hoot about hitting their mark, then maybe
it is an advantage. However, I for one try to hit my mark, and often do not
use any runup, or two steps at most on fairway shots. I can tell you in all
honesty that if I miss my mark, my footwork was wrong and my shot suffers.
I suspect it is this way for most people.

Therefore, just as I say every year this discussion rises up, it is much ado
about nothing. I would argue that is why top players never/rarely look for
it, or call it. Because deep down, they think it is not that big of a deal.

However, when someone starts to foot fault to create easier lines, most
players are bothered, and IMO, they should be. But on an open fairway, I
think the "advantage" y'all are assuming is illusory.



I would like to address the foot fault issue in terms of what James has
written.

There is no question that there are many foot faults and even many by those,
who like James, try and hit their mark. I have long felt this rule has an
inherent problem in that it is difficult to meet and even more difficult to
enforce. The notion of Rhett and Neon that it is simple enough just call
the rule is a beautiful yet flawed premise. The reality is that isn't
happening and it is unlikely that will change.

Dave Dunipace's proposal is a good one. It isn't new, in fact I think the
first time I read it was when Rhett proposed it a year or so ago (it is
probably older than that).

The idea of standing in (or eliminating run ups) on fairway drives makes a
difficult call an easy one. It eliminates the question on all fairway
drives and it also makes the jump putt cleaner and illegal jump putts more
easily called. Remember, jump putts would still be legal but you would have
to start flat-footed behind your lie.

Rhett and Neon have stated clearly in the past that proper foot placement on
a fairway lie makes a huge difference in your throw. For me, and I'd be
willing to bet all other players, getting it right, not close to right, 100%
of the time requires a huge, throw impacting commitment. Those that think
there is no difference are fooling themselves for the sake of convenience.
Watch the top Pros do this, they use a different approach on the fairway and
a different throwing motion that limits the distance of their throws. Even
that is insufficient since by my measure, they still miss their mark on
occasion.

No run up on fairway drives is more than a good solution to this problem; it
is an elegant solution. First, it requires a different type of throw. In
actuality, as written by Dave D. in his seminal work on getting distance, a
player can stand in and still get a good throw. This increases the
complexity and challenge of the sport, always a good thing. Second, you
eliminate the issue of foot faults for all but drives from the T. It is
just too easy to spot problems period. Third, you make shorter courses more
relevant. The simple fact is that by limiting the distance on second
throws, you make 800-foot holes the equivalent of 1000-foot holes as they
play under today's rules structure. While this may seem trivial, the plain
and simple fact is that in urban parks, acreage is at a premium. This rule
change makes some courses that are now dated, much more effective. Fourth,
it starts to address one of the credibility gaps this sport has. While
credibility gaps may or may not be important, there is no question that a
player obeying the rules is at a disadvantage to one not playing by the
rules. Why would I want to play at any event where I know a guy on my card
is playing with less of handicap? Why would I want to obey the rules if I
know that certain rules are being, and will be ignored?

Finally, I think the PDGA can really take a step towards a better game by
seriously considering this rule change. If for no other reason than by
looking at how often it comes up here.

With Regards,


Lyle O. Ross

IMO runups and put-jumps should never be illegal. You can look at all aspects of it as to how it helps or hurts your shot but either way it is a means of getting your disc to the basket. I see no problems with rolling on the ground, doing cartwheels, backflips or what ever you have to do before or after you throw just as long as you have one foot on the ground behind your marker when the disc leaves your hand. I am especially against the "no run up in the fairway" thing. I firm foot a roc on shots that are straight up to around 300ft. I know people that can't even throw 300ft with a run up. Do you think that is fair to change the rule in that situation just to justify a footfault or illegal put-jump? I treat the put-jump like a jump stop in basketball. It follows every aspect of the rules. That doesn't mean I like it but it is legal. When it is done wrong you know it and can call it. If it's questionable then you can't really call it, right? Nuff said. As long as it follows the rules and standards that whe have been abiding by then we shouldn't change it.

Get rid of jump putting and you might as well resign yourself to keeping disc golf as a "smallish" sport with little spectator appeal and little incentive for large corporate sponsorship.



I find it hard to believe that the future growth and mass appeal of our sport is dependent upon the jump putt. Even so, I don't see any reason to make them illegal.



Perhaps not. :D My point is that any rule changes should favor increasing spectator appeal. It seems we would be solving a small problem by creating a bigger one.

The dunk in basketball was frowned upon when first introduced into the game. But I think it is responsible for adding a lot of excitement and $$$ to the sport. I'm not saying jump putting is disc golf's "dunk," but it would seem irresponsible to get rid of one of the more exciting things to watch just to make it (arguably) easier to call foot faults.

What is the most exciting part of the 2004 MSDGC video trailer to watch? Yup.

I must reiterate my position that the jumping part of the putt doesn't neccessarily add as much excitement as many of the posters here profess.

Any shot that goes in or even hits metal from a significant distance (>60') has excitement appeal. For instance if a player throws a standard backhand shot from 200' and it goes in is it any less exciting because he didn't become airborne after release?

Now if a player is in an awkward lie behind an obstacle like a bush or thick tree and he needs to jump or otherwise lose his footing after release and makes the putt from 50' I'd consider it more exciting than if he made a putt from the same distance without an obstacle to navigate.

But when you have two players putting from similar lies and identical distance and one sinks it with a standard putt and the other employs a putt jump I wouldn't consider the jump putter any more skilled, athletic or exciting.

The sport existed for about 25 years or so before the term "jump putt" became a disc golf term or recognized technique. Now people are making an arguement that jump putting is a vital and exciting part of the game and to do away with it would seriously diminish the growth or popularity of the sport.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

For years I didn't care how people threw their discs and for the most part I still don't. However I've witnessed how this particuliar shot by many closely resembles the ugly (and illegal) falling putt that duffers with no knowledge or concern for rules use.

In many sports (like pickup basketball and volleyball) self calling is a reasonable practice. However, the concept of self calling footfaults in disc golf is unrealistic except in the most obvious of cases. The player executing his shot cannot see his foot placement, release point and focus on his target simultaneously. In my mind there is no call that is more protested by players than a jump putt footfault. I'm really sorry for those players who routinely execute this shot properly,legally and gracefully. Unfortunately there are many others who do not and this becomes a source for spoken and more often unspoken animosity between players.

The best solution to this problem is the rules revision that I proposed earlier in this thread which makes footfault detection and calling far more cut and dry and still allows the player to use the shot which so many appear to be married to.


Here it is copied and pasted from a prior post:


Proposed rule change

If jump putting is such a vital part of the game (which is a hard sell for me), then I would be more in favor of <font color="red"> extending the 30cm to 1m behind your mark and require the jump putter to land no closer to the hole than his mini.

So the acrobatic putter could release the disc before becoming airborne or during flight it wouldn't matter just so long as his supporting point is within 1m of his lie (at liftoff) on the LOP and he lands no closer to the hole than his mark.

This makes footfaults cut and dry and removes the timing issue. All the while it affords the putter up to one meter of forward momentum. And of course after release he could step (or fall) past his mark provided he was outside the 10M zone.[/color}

<font color="blue"> How do you jump putting proponents feel about such a revision?</font>

I disagree and many others do to about whether a standard in place putt is as exciting as a Jump putt from the same distance. I think the jump putt is more exciting especially when on a shorter putt (40-60ish feet). I will agree that some people can really make this shot look ugly though.

I dont think it is necessary to go changing rules because we have to call each other on rules. I see the future having non-playing officials out watching for these things so I dont see the need in changing the rules over it at this point.

Jump putting is just another type of follow-through, and a more exciting one at that,IMO.

If it is an obvious foot-fault, then call it.

Here's my perspective:

Many jump putters launch themselves more forward then upward. When they do this with velocity and power they can "fly" several feet in a fraction of a second. As many have pointed out if a footfault is borderline you should let it go and only call the obvious faults.

Now then if someone on the tee or fairway overstepped his mark by two feet, I'm sure you'd consider that obvious and wouldn't hesitate to make a call. On the other hand a jump putter can cover two feet in about an eigth of a second. Therefore if we are granting an eigth of a second leeway we are likely granting them two feet of footfaulting leeway also.

Meanwhile if a non-jumping putter would step on his mini with the balll of his foot he'd be footfaulting by maybe four inches and would likely be called on it 99% of the time.

Anyone besides me following the logic here?

I do see your logic. I think you make some good arguments against jump putting. It is without a doubt taking the rule to the edge alot of the time and admittidly OVER the edge by some.

I just don't see it as a problem that warrants rules revision especially when you take the future of the sport into consideration where we won't be the ones having to make the calls(unless of course you take up the job of being non-playing official)

I see the future having non-playing officials out watching for these things so I dont see the need in changing the rules over it at this point.



<font color="blue">And I think it will be a significant length of time (5-15 years at least) before we have non playing officials on every hole. So we are to ignore this as an issue until then just because there's talk here on a msg board of someday having officials on every hole to make such calls? </font>



If it is an obvious foot-fault, then call it.



The term "obvious" differs from person to person and as I pointed out in my last post what is an insignificant amount of time can equate to a significant amount of distance and the nature of the timing issue of this shot under the current rules makes it incredibly difficult to enforce equally between putters and jump putters.

I. I think you make some good arguments against jump putting.



Don't misunderstand my motives. I don't have a vendetta against the shot. I don't view jump putters as cheaters. I am open to options other than banning its use. I would prefer (surprise!) that it be kept legal. However I wouldn't spend this kind of time in discussion if I didn't think there were some problems that could and should be addressed. I'm clearly not the only one since this thread has the ol flame icon beside it.

I think a simple rule revision (like the one I proposed) that makes the call more clearcut and easier to enforce fairly to all putting styles would go a long way in giving freedom to the players while maintaining the integrity of the game.

On the other hand a jump putter can cover two feet in about an eigth of a second.




I don't understand this statement. According to the rules you have to have your foot on the ground when your disc comes out your hand. Where is the two feet that you are talking about in that rule? What makes it legal is that your not in the air when your throwing, right?

And I think it will be a significant length of time (5-15 years at least) before we have non playing officials on every hole. So we are to ignore this as an issue until then just because there's talk here on a msg board of someday having officials on every hole to make such calls?




It very well could be up to 15 years or maybe more before non-playing officials are out on every hole. It also could be 5-10 years, which I don't consider a significant amount of time in the grand scheme of things.

Are we too consider this a real issue just because there is talk on the msg board that it is?

It has in recent years become more of an accepted style of putting. In my opinion it is a good addition to the sport.

People push the rules to the edge all the time(most all of the rules), some push to far. I dont think it is good to go changing key things like "play it where it lies" just because occassionally a player leaves his feet an 8th of a second before he should have.

If a player takes a run up and launches himself forward as he takes his shot it is very difficult to determine his release point relative to his feet leaving the ground. Do you follow me?
If you think about it, he may travel two feet between the time his thumb releases and the time the disc completely leaves his hand.

I used the measurement two feet as an example. And one can try to debate semantics about traveling two feet in a quarter second versus an eigth of a second or whatnot, but if you're honest with yourself you must admit it is rarely clear cut and is nearly impossible to call accurately and consistently.

Sure the criteria of a footfault in jump putting is primarily a time issue not a distance issue. But if you read my post carefully you'd see I was using a distance to show how differently the standard would likely be applied to a putter using a more stationary technique.

Are we on the same page yet?

Don't misunderstand my motives. I don't have a vendetta against the shot. I don't view jump putters as cheaters. I am open to options other than banning its use. I would prefer (surprise!) that it be kept legal. However I wouldn't spend this kind of time in discussion if I didn't think there were some problems that could and should be addressed. I'm clearly not the only one since this thread has the ol flame icon beside it.




I do realize you are not against Jump putts themselves and i apologize if i made it sound as if you were. Poor wording on my part i guess.

It appears you reply to my posts addressing some points while ignoring others.

Eigth of a second- no big deal.
Two foot footfault-big deal.

We allot a meter relief in several situations already. But we allow 30cm for playing your lie. Is adjusting that distance to the already precedented 1m in an effort to make thousands of otherwise controversial calls more clear cut drasticly changing how the game is played?And not to reopen a can of worms or anything, but adjusting the currently alotted 30cm to 1m is a drasticly smaller change than eliminating the 2MR.

Ten years ago there were very few golfers who jump putted with any regularity. And to my recollection none of them did it in the sprawling manner in which I frquently witness today.
There was no real controversy then, no need for a rule revision.

Sports change over time. Basketball at one time had no shot clock. Then teams started employing stall tactics if they were leading in the second half of the game. It made an exciting sport boring. So in response to this the shot clock was introduced.

Same here. Ten years ago there was no apparent need for rules governing jump putts. Today I believe if we have a solution that makes a call easier to make fairly and judiciously we should seriously consider it. And if someone wants to propose a different solution that makes a difficult,controversial call clear cut I'm open to consider it.

I understand where you are going with this and the whole concept of it. I was confused to what the relevacy was to how far a person travels when he has his supporting foot behind the marker. I agree that it is way to quick to actually see with the human eye the point at which a disc does leave the hand. I played doubles last night with a kid that did a jump put for a duece on #2 at Pease park. I could not for sure tell you that what he did was 100% legal but from what I saw he had one foot on the ground when the disc came out of his hand. That's good enough for me to say that it was a good shot. There really isn't any way that we can for sure be able to see it so it doesn't bother me. If we did not allow any going past the disc on any shot then that would mean we would have to change every aspect of our aproach game. That would change almost the whole game. I just feel like we are beating a dead horse. If it is obvious then someone should call it. If it is that close that you can't tell then don't call it.

My intention is not to ignore any part of your posts. If I feel like I have already answered a part of your post then I dont really see the good in repeating myself.

As far as yours and my opinion is concerned. I think it boils down to: You see it as an issue which warrants rules revision and I dont see it as an issue that warrants rules revision.

My suggestion is that if you feel so strongly about it then you should go through the proper channels and show them your case and proposed change if you haven't already.

Please(with permission from those you talk to) let us know the responses you get. I'd be interesting in hearing them.

I If we did not allow any going past the disc on any shot then that would mean we would have to change every aspect of our aproach game.



And again you are confused because you either don't read my posts completely or you ignore parts of them


This is copied an pasted from my proposed rule change post:
<font color="red">
" And of course after release he could step (or fall) past his mark provided he was outside the 10M zone."</font>

Provided you're outside 10 m you can always step past your mark following release and my proposed revision does nothing to change that aspect of our rules.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Jump putting is more fun! :D

Well let me quote myself.
[quote} I was confused to what the relevacy was to how far a person travels when he has his supporting foot behind the marker.

[/QUOTE]
I don't see it. I just don't think that the tiny little bit of grey area we are discussing warrants a rule change. I'm not trying to be rude so please don't take it as such. I am just not understanding. I have read through your posts. I'm not ignoring them. I guess I still don't understand.

Okay, I can self quote also:



If a player takes a run up and launches himself forward as he takes his shot it is very difficult to determine his release point relative to his feet leaving the ground. Do you follow me?
If you think about it, he may travel two feet between the time his thumb releases and the time the disc completely leaves his hand.




I've heard people say they have viewed jump putts on film and have studied the footage frame by frame and still were unsure exactly where the release point occured.

Even in super slow mo you can't see where a disc is touching a player's hand and where it is not. On film in slow motion you can look at the player's feet then at his hand and back at his feet, but even so it's not always discernable where the release occured let alone relative to the point the feet leave the ground.

So if it is that hard to judge on film in super slow mo how can we expect accurate calls in real time when you must stand behind the player and your view is likely obstructed by the player's body?

This call is drasticly different than the footfault call made on a nonjump putter. Here there is no significant timing issue to consider. Even if the player "steps through" his shot the disc is well on its way to the hole before the player's rear foot lands in front of his mark.

If you continue this "well just make a call then" as if it's clear cut, then you're really not being honest with yourself, or your own bias has blinded you from reality.

Humans are also not reliable to make a call. Studies have shown that your internal mechanisms reassemble sensory input to make it appear synchronized. For example, when you watch someone's lips talking to you from 60 feet away, there's actually a time delay between the sound reaching you and your view of the lip movements. Your brain internally slows down your perception of the lips to synchronize with the matching sound which arrives a little later. You will synchronize up to a significant distance before your sight and sound timing perception starts to separate.

That is truer than you even imagine Chuck. Take it from someone who got their first pair of glasses at age 40. My brain had been working so hard for those years to compensate for my right eye that when I got lenses to deal with the focus and stigmatism and saw the world for the first time 20/20 and as everyone else sees it my brain couldn't deal and made the world slope off to one side. When I'd hold a sheet of perfectly square paper up, it would look larger on the right side than the left, then I'd flip it over and the right side would still be larger.

I had gotten them to help me with watching that tiny white ball in ball golf, because I always had to rely on my partners to see where my ball went. The ironic thing is that though I could now see the ball clearly on drives when it came to putting I couldn't get any read at all on the green!

To make matters worse, after a month of wearing them, when I took them off all of the weird effects started to reverse; and with no glasses on all square things looked larger on the left and the world sloped off to the right rather than the left with the glasses on.

Now I just wear them when I go to movies or watch a movie with subtitles. The brain can compensate at an incredible rate.

Freaky!

If you putted left handed, that hole to your right should have looked extra large and extra easy to hit :D

Okay. I think I see my reality fine. The reality here is that you are starting to sound like a broken record. The rule is written and in the book. I wasn't trying to be rude or start an argument. How about this, next time someone does a jump put you can call them on their 2ft foot fault. The rest of the card will then call you and idiot and continue with the rest of their game. I mean after all the call is only valid if the majority of the card agrees on it right. Have fun playing!

I think you may want to rethink your username. There is nothing easy about trying to discuss issues with you.

I can respect differing opinions. However I think there are some points that must be conceded and agreed upon and I don't think we've been able to do that. Therefore we don't have a starting point.

I've heard people say they have viewed jump putts on film and have studied the footage frame by frame and still were unsure exactly where the release point occured.

Even in super slow mo you can't see where a disc is touching a player's hand and where it is not. On film in slow motion you can look at the player's feet then at his hand and back at his feet, but even so it's not always discernable where the release occured let alone relative to the point the feet leave the ground.

So if it is that hard to judge on film in super slow mo how can we expect accurate calls in real time when you must stand behind the player and your view is likely obstructed by the player's body?


If it is so close to call, that even super-slow-mo can't help, than one must really question the presence of any violation, let alone one that would produce an unfair advantage to the jump putter. After all, isn't the existence of rules just to keep everything fair for every competitor? If it is an obvious violation, call it!

The call is valid if the the player calling it sees the violation and calls it. Whether it is 2nded by others in the group who may or may not have been paying attention (in itself a rules violation of the first rule in our rulebook) has nothing to do with the "validity" of the call, only with whether or not it is 2nded and considered by the rules of disc golf to be a violation.

In short, if you see a violation, call it, and it is not 2nded (when required) it doesn't make you an idiot for making the call, it makes you a "Disc Golfer" playing "Disc Golf".

I would say the idiot is the player who doesn't care or know enough about knowing, playing by or calling the rules of disc golf to play the game the right way. They are the ones harming our sport and denegrating it.

If I see a jump putt that I believe is illegal I will call it right away, without stewing over whether anyone else will 2nd my call. I am enough confident in myself to know what I see, the rules, and in the cause of preserving our game to make a call when I see it.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here, just providing a point I thought needed raising.

If it is so close to call, that even super-slow-mo can't help, than one must really question the presence of any violation, let alone one that would produce an unfair advantage to the jump putter. After all, isn't the existence of rules just to keep everything fair for every competitor? If it is an obvious violation, call it!




I apologize for not doing a better job of puting into words what I can visualize in my mind. I've tried to explain it several times yet you're not the first one to miss my point.

A jump putt is different than any other shot in that the player's entire body is moving toward the target. Not pivoting as in a backhand drive or approach. This element coupled with the push putt motion causes the the release to occur over a greater time than the hit of a more powerful shot.

I know when I push putt sometimes my fingers release long before my thumb does. Other times my thumb leaves first. With a stationary putt none of it is relevant because my supporting point remains planted. With a jump putt that has a player lunging forward if the release is delayed by a fraction of a second not only is the player airborne before release he's most likely significantly in front of his lie.

When I made the reference to studying a video, I'm not saying it was close. I'm saying you could have four people view 6 frames of film and have four different opinions over which frame the release took place. One person would say the release was before the foot left the ground, one would say after the foot left the ground the third might say it was two frames after the foot left the ground a fourth person may say it occured 4 frames after the player became airborne.

Now also realize that we rarely have a good vantage point anyway because courtesy dictates that we stand behind the player putting so our view is obstructed by the player's body.

As it stands now this is rarely a cut and dry call. I can't see why we can't atleast agree that it is a difficult call to make. And just because it's difficult doesn't mean it's close.

As I said earlier a stationary putter footfaults by four inches and will get called on it 99% of the time. If a jump putter releases a quarter second late (and typically translates to more than a foot in front of his mark) he gets called on it 1% of the time.

I'm giving up now trying to explain this. I think rules need to be applied accurately and fairly to everyone regardless of their chosen style and currently it is my opinion that they are not.

I think we are all (atleast I am ) understanding exactly what you are saying.

I just don't think it is as much of an issue as you seem to think it is. Benefit of the doubt should always go to the thrower. If it is so close that your eyes cant even process it then shouldnt the thrower get the benefit of the doubt? I am positive that if a player comes off the ground enough before release that it is giving them an advantage, then you will get a second on your call.

Have you taken my advice and sent your case and proposed change to the rules commitee?

Yes, I sent an email to Carlton today following your suggestion. No word back yet.

I just think there are factors that are inherent to this particuliar shot that make it impossible to enforce with the same accuracy as it is applied to other shots.

If all jump putters jumped straight up instead of lunging forward I wouldn't give a rat's behind whether they released a quarter second late. I just know that I often see a jump putt that looks wrong but I bite my tongue because it wasn't clear cut. I've only ever told someone they footfaulted jump putting (it was obvious) once during a casual round. Not making a call mind you, just informing them for their own knowledge and it was like trying to take booze from a drunk.

I don't like having to make calls but I do when it's clear to me. Players tend to take it personally as if I'm trying to take a part of their game from them. This shot more than any other has that effect on the player being called for it.

If it is called and 2nded then I would accept it without comment or argument, nor would I think worse of the people calling it.

I've watched several players jump putt. The strategy seems to be that jumps get you more distance on really long putts. Some do it well, like my brother. Others have regularly bad shots. I've tried jump putts and they don't work for me.

After reading this thread I went out and tried to do them "wrong". What I found out was that the power comes from throwing while your foot is in contact with the ground. With the foot planted you use it to increase the forward momentum of the throw. Action-reaction. If you throw after your foot leaves the ground, you lose the reaction portion of the act, thus you throw with less power. On a long putt (60'+) putting farther is the objective. Releasing the disc after your foot leaves the ground is counter productive to that objective. It is also ackward. I've seen no one on the thread say they have tried this.

Now jumping forward and releasing when you are close (say at 10m) there is an advantage because you don't have to throw hard, you are just trying to get closer before you release. Hence, the 10m rule. I'd suggest that y'all try throwing both ways and you'll see there is no advantage gained by releasing after your foot leaves the ground. Therefore, those "close calls" some are worried about are moot. Now an inexperienced player who has not mastered this shot may foot fault. If it's obvious, call it. If it's not obvious its probably a good throw. Just my $.02.

If you throw after your foot leaves the ground, you lose the reaction portion of the act, thus you throw with less power. On a long putt (60'+) putting farther is the objective. Releasing the disc after your foot leaves the ground is counter productive to that objective. It is also ackward. I've seen no one on the thread say they have tried this.


I have. I was experimenting with it for fun just to see if it worked better or not. I lost so much power and accuracy and probably looked so stupid I've never tried it since.

I've been working on a jump-putt type of putt simply because it works or so many other players. Given my girth and my knees, I'm not going airborn like Climo or Feldberg. It is more like just a little skip to catch my balance if I get a good push.

Anyway, I made my first "long" jump putt in a serious casual round on Saturday, about 50 feet. :D I jumped about two inches, after I released the disc. When the putt went in I jumped again.

Yes, I sent an email to Carlton today following your suggestion. No word back yet.

I just think there are factors that are inherent to this particuliar shot that make it impossible to enforce with the same accuracy as it is applied to other shots.

If all jump putters jumped straight up instead of lunging forward I wouldn't give a rat's behind whether they released a quarter second late. I just know that I often see a jump putt that looks wrong but I bite my tongue because it wasn't clear cut. I've only ever told someone they footfaulted jump putting (it was obvious) once during a casual round. Not making a call mind you, just informing them for their own knowledge and it was like trying to take booze from a drunk.

I don't like having to make calls but I do when it's clear to me. Players tend to take it personally as if I'm trying to take a part of their game from them. This shot more than any other has that effect on the player being called for it.



:D"Not making a call mind you, just informing them for their own knowledge and it was like trying to take booze from a drunk." :D

I see the most jump-putt violations when a player is attempting to 'putt' or approach from around a large diametered tree like an evergreen/juniper/cedar or a broad bush etc... Usually, & unknowingly, the player will gain an advantage by going airborne before releasing the disc...thus eliminating some of the angle. :eek:

A foot fault is a foot fault. Call it if you see it. If you don't, don't. Pretty simple.

We simply can't make rules for "just in case" situations or our rule book would look like Bruce's law library.

See it, call it. Don't think about all of the legal or moral implications. If no one else sees it or calls it, oh well. You did what you could. You simply played disc golf.

I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't take some effort to become comfortable with the rules, to play by them and to call them; just like putting or driving it takes practice and effort.

Here's a nice example of an illegal jump putt.

http://home.carolina.rr.com/rodneyg/feldfault.gif

Hah, that looks like he didn't even try. He's lifting the wrong foot first.

Here's a nice example of an illegal jump putt.

http://home.carolina.rr.com/rodneyg/feldfault.gif



Well it looks like it would have been legal if his lie was in front of his right foot....lol He executed the jump putt well, just off the wrong foot :D

What do you guys mean by the wrong foot? My understanding of a 'supporting point' is either foot. In other words, when straddle putting, I can put either foot behind my mini, so I could straddle to the left or to the right of an obstacle, as long as one of my supporting points (feet) is directly behind my marker on the plane between it and the target. So why should it matter which foot anybody (or Mr. Feldberg) leads with? The thing to watch in the clip is how the disc isn't leaving his hand till WAY after he's left his feet. See 803.04.

I'm assuming that the disc in front of his left foot is the mark. He lifts that foot before his arm even starts moving.

What do you guys mean by the wrong foot? My understanding of a 'supporting point' is either foot. In other words, when straddle putting, I can put either foot behind my mini, so I could straddle to the left or to the right of an obstacle, as long as one of my supporting points (feet) is directly behind my marker on the plane between it and the target. So why should it matter which foot anybody (or Mr. Feldberg) leads with? The thing to watch in the clip is how the disc isn't leaving his hand till WAY after he's left his feet. See 803.04.



It matters more often on long straddle putts where the player will lift one foot just before they throw. Normally the foot they are leaning away from which is the one behind the marker. It's also a problem when they put their heel behind the marker, and then go up on their toes before they putt. In either case, there is not supporting point on the LOP when they release the disc.

What do you guys mean by the wrong foot? My understanding of a 'supporting point' is either foot. In other words, when straddle putting, I can put either foot behind my mini, so I could straddle to the left or to the right of an obstacle, as long as one of my supporting points (feet) is directly behind my marker on the plane between it and the target. So why should it matter which foot anybody (or Mr. Feldberg) leads with? The thing to watch in the clip is how the disc isn't leaving his hand till WAY after he's left his feet. See 803.04.



Yes, see 803.04, especially A.1...

A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.

...you need to have a supporting point within a disc's diameter (30 cm) directly behind the marker as you release the thrown disc.

What do you guys mean by the wrong foot? My understanding of a 'supporting point' is either foot. In other words, when straddle putting, I can put either foot behind my mini, so I could straddle to the left or to the right of an obstacle, as long as one of my supporting points (feet) is directly behind my marker on the plane between it and the target. So why should it matter which foot anybody (or Mr. Feldberg) leads with? The thing to watch in the clip is how the disc isn't leaving his hand till WAY after he's left his feet. See 803.04.



The it is obvious and should be called. :o

sad thing is, this is off the 2005 worlds video, and I bet it didn't get called. But, this is in slow motion, and as previously noted MANY times, it's a tough call to make.

Hey matt, is that Nikko in your avatar? :D LOL!

sad thing is, this is off the 2005 worlds video, and I bet it didn't get called. But, this is in slow motion, and as previously noted MANY times, it's a tough call to make.



Well I watched people driving and it is very hard to tell if they crossed the line or not so what is the difference?

haha!!! i was thinkin the same thing! :Dso is it??

Here's a nice example of an illegal jump putt.

http://home.carolina.rr.com/rodneyg/feldfault.gif



You have to remember that Dave releases his disc well before his arm is extended. It is hard to tell from that angle but he may have "released" the disc before leaving the ground. Then again if that was his disc by his left foot it was a footfault.

Ok that was like a 65ft putt right? Well go out and try to putt from that distance after you have left the ground and see how far you can putt it. I can't get much D and I have no control.

Dave's right foot is the one behind his marker. Gordon Holton and Lowell Shields are the only right-handed people I knew that putted left foot forward, although I'm sure there are others.

It's very difficult to tell from Rodney's video whether Dave foot faults or not. The camera angle does not allow you to clearly see when Dave released the disc. That being said, having watched Dave jump putt a number of times, it's my belief that his jump putt is mostly a follow-through, rather than a jump, then a putt. If you have to use slow motion to discern whether he released it before his feet left the ground, and then you still can't tell, you can't call it a foot fault.

Chap

I dunno, Chap...it sure doesn't look like there's a marker anywhere by his right foot. Still, no one called it, so it's legal...

steve

He robbed the bank on that one.

It's apparent he threw a white disc for his drive, because that's what's closest to his left foot, and he probably set it there after he marked his lie. That white disc isn't even really in line with his left foot....it's clearly left of the foot (again, bad camera angle). I wouldn't trust Rodney's clip to be able to tell if there's a mini there or not, especially if the mini is dark in color. I'm trying to locate my copy of the actual video, but can't find it at the moment. Basically the video that's posted here proves nothing, and only adds to the confusion with it's murkiness.

Chap

Have any of the naysayers actually gone out and tried jump putting with both methods? I assure you, there is NO WAY that you can accurately putt while jumping and then putting (plus it buys you absolutely nothing). The whole point is to use all that leg power and snap it into the disc... being airborne robs you of that back foot push.

It's apparent he threw a white disc for his drive, because that's what's closest to his left foot, and he probably set it there after he marked his lie. That white disc isn't even really in line with his left foot....it's clearly left of the foot (again, bad camera angle). I wouldn't trust Rodney's clip to be able to tell if there's a mini there or not, especially if the mini is dark in color. I'm trying to locate my copy of the actual video, but can't find it at the moment. Basically the video that's posted here proves nothing, and only adds to the confusion with it's murkiness.

Chap



I don't know what clip you were watching, but there is clearly no mini in front of his right foot. However, there appears to be a circular miniature "disc-like" object (most probably a "mini") just behind the white disc...

Foot-fault.

I am probably the most adamant supporter of jump-putting of anyone that I know, since I am jumping at 32'9"...I also do not believe that I foot-fault while jumping, or at least do not 99% of the time. And I usually know when I foot-fault while jumping. It is unclear when some people jump, however, but the standard rule dictates a no-call...benefit of the doubt goes to the thrower, tie goes to the runner, however you want to put it.

If jump-putts are made illegal, I will quit the sport. And I am not kidding. It is my favorite part of the actual "physical" aspects of the sport. There is no beTTer feeling on a disc golf course than hittin' a 80-footer that no one expects you to hit...

I don't know what clip you were watching, but there is clearly no mini in front of his right foot. However, there appears to be a circular miniature "disc-like" object (most probably a "mini") just behind the white disc...

Foot-fault.

I am probably the most adamant supporter of jump-putting of anyone that I know, since I am jumping at 32'9"...I also do not believe that I foot-fault while jumping, or at least do not 99% of the time. And I usually know when I foot-fault while jumping. It is unclear when some people jump, however, but the standard rule dictates a no-call...benefit of the doubt goes to the thrower, tie goes to the runner, however you want to put it.

If jump-putts are made illegal, I will quit the sport. And I am not kidding. It is my favorite part of the actual "physical" aspects of the sport. There is no beTTer feeling on a disc golf course than hittin' a 80-footer that no one expects you to hit...



One of these days I'm going to go out and try this jump-putting business again just to see if I can get the hang of it. I certainly step through on a lot of my putts from outside the circle, but so far that's about the most leg power I've been able to put into the shot without losing control over it. And because I don't typically put in practice except in the form of playing actual rounds, I don't wind up in a lot of situations where I'm willing to work on something radically different from what I usually do. (I almost said normally, but that word really doesn't apply.) It's kind of a self-defeating thing I've got going on...I'm not willing to put time into practicing to improve instead of playing to have fun unless I get to a level where I would treat the sport as more than a hobby, and I'm not likely to reach that level without spending time practicing. But, as I've explained to various people, I'm happy playing that way.

I don't know what clip you were watching, but there is clearly no mini in front of his right foot.



There is nothing clear about Rodney's video. I'm still looking for my copy of the real video at home.

Chap

Please post it when you find it...I agree that I can't be definitive until I see a clearer view.

Please post it when you find it...I agree that I can't be definitive until I see a clearer view.

Please post it when you find it...I agree that I can't be definitive until I see a clearer view.



Is it this one ?

http://home.carolina.rr.com/rodneyg/feldfault.gif

Sure looks like a foot fault, unless there's a camo-mini on the ground in front of the right foot. It's just one of many close call foot faults that I've seen on video.

As far as calling that standing right next to him, I think it'd be tough. It was pointed out to me that a non-victorious competitor up on the leaderboard foot-faulted during the final round of The Players Cup. I was standing 15 feet behind him when it happened. I didn't see it and nobody else said anything, but it is clear on a video that it happened.

The only times I've called foot fault on anyone was playing with a rec or intermediate player in a mixed division round when the violation was extreme. In most of those cases the player either wasn't aware of the rule or didn't understand it fully.

There's no way I'd call foot fault on someone when it wasn't 100% clear to me that it was a violation, especially if nobody else was watching to second the call. I do think the fact that putting players in a position of working themselves by making a call on a competitor is a flaw in the rules. Hopefully in the future there will be officials with all groups for NT and Major events.

Have any of the naysayers actually gone out and tried jump putting with both methods? I assure you, there is NO WAY that you can accurately putt while jumping and then putting (plus it buys you absolutely nothing). The whole point is to use all that leg power and snap it into the disc... being airborne robs you of that back foot push.

This is no doubt true for you, but some players putt quite effectively in the air.

When you look at the video, you will see that Dave is throwing around some trees that are forcing a right-to-left flight path. I think it's safe to assume that he is not straddling to the left of the lie as that would make the angle more severe.

I still think this looks wrong.

http://home.carolina.rr.com/rodneyg/feldfault.gif <font color="blue"> </font>

When you look at the video, you will see that Dave is throwing around some trees that are forcing a right-to-left flight path. I think it's safe to assume that he is not straddling to the left of the lie as that would make the angle more severe.



But it is a long putt and would give him more power. I you senario was the case then it would be an easy Foot Fault call and I think that they would definantly have noticed.

...I you senario was the case...

wtf??? what are they teaching you in that school?

I still think this looks wrong.

http://home.carolina.rr.com/rodneyg/feldfault.gif <font color="blue"> </font>



Agreed. Total foot fault.

It does look like a foot fault - cuz it is!

When looking at jump putt footage (of the MSDGC) in super duper slo-mo, every jump putt I looked at (about a dozen) left the hand before the feet left the ground. I would never call a foot fault on a jump putt unless they pulled a Carl Lewis 32 foot jump for a dunk. And I might not be able to call that because I'd be laughing too hard.

...I you senario was the case...

wtf??? what are they teaching you in that school?



If your scenario was the case. Is that better? Sometimes I get a little hyper on when U type and don't speeeeeel check. :D

...I you senario was the case...

wtf??? what are they teaching you in that school?



If your scenario was the case. Is that better? <font color="red"> Sometimes <font color="black"> I </font>get a little hyper <font color="orange"> on </font> when <font color="black"> U </font> type and don't speeeeeel check. </font> :D



Looks like we need a grammar check as well.

I love this discussion, especially when it centers around Dave Feldberg (actually, I didn't go back through the posts but I recognize the style. If it's not Dave, it certainly looks like him).

Whether or not there is a mini, Dave repeatedly pulls his back foot through and over his marker before his release. I've looked at a lot of footage and I've seen a half-dozen shots like this one. Whether or not it's illegal, he's very good at that shot, I've seen him make it a number of times.

Dave would be the Hakeem of disc golf. Hakeem, and Jordan, always got an extra step when driving. It was "normal." Dave always gets to "foot-fault" on jump putts. Same thing...

BTW - I've posted this before but I spent about a week going through all of the footage from 2003 Worlds and USDGC, 2004 Worlds, and 2003 NT DVDs. I saw a lot of jump putts and I went through each frame by frame. Consistently, most players are jump putting correctly. That includes, Des, Steve Rico, Schweb and many others. There is one exception and we're looking at it here. When I posted this before someone posted back that what Dave is doing is legal. I never interpreted the rules that way, but I could be wrong. I always thought that your back foot had to be behind your marker until release.

803.04 B. Stepping past the marker disc is permitted after the disc is released, except when putting within 10 meters