the no 2mR except within 10M of the pin was not a compromise?

another example of Nicklideon gemoetry perhaps?

as far as the threads, bygones, whatever.

but as far as golf being a game where you play on from wher you ended, disc XXXX is not golf without the 2MR.

another example of Nicklideon geometry perhaps?



I do not know Nick, nor do I give a crap about the constant pro/con Nick Kight garbage which suffuses most of these threads, but THAT was funny!

Nick just can't let it go. I wonder why? Maybe he is feeling guilty about championing such a lame rules revision.

In any event, the 2MR was mentioned in passing and Nick just had to jump on it and make it a big deal again. Never could've seen that one coming...

Wow, what happened? Did they finally eliminate this rule altogether, or just state that it is not the default option and shortsighted TDs may embrace it if they feel compelled to advance their poor taste? :D

I didn't bring it up. Nor did I continue it.

That is unless you have your Nick Blinders on as per usual Rhett.

And Pat, no it is not a compromise because it still does not give design freedom to the course designer but rams an ill-advised and ill-conceived mandatory restricted area on every course everywhere. This when you, Pat Brenner, Mr. 1 Dimensional, admit that it is not necessary in every situation. How can you know for sure that it would be appropriate in every situation?

Oh, that's right, I forgot, you know everything... Certainly more than the PDGA RC and Local Course Pros on their own courses...

WOW! I have A envy! Thanks for contributing Pat!






first let me state for the record that i was given A status simply because i was rather deeply involved in the rollout of the members only code and i needed it to assist some members regain access.

next, i can assure you that i will not be doing any admin'ing other than helping people remember their usernames and dealing with the members only conversion. ie i wont be editing, deleting, etc.

further, even though the admin status is not something to which i was aspiring (and therefore did not "achieve"), i have in fact refrained from posting a few things already that i would have previously posted, simply as to not blemish the image of the A.

continuing, yes i am a fan of message board hyperbole, although i rarely slip into "malicious-toned" without being similarly provoked. (some threads, such as the OMB/YGB thread are all about "malicious-toned " so they dont really count. :D

for your consideration, there are similarities between nick and me. but the similarities end when compromise is involved. as i stated before, i reverted when a compromise tthat i suppported was dismissed out of hand in favor of the all-or-nothing approach of nick (and his minion :cool:)

finally:

"it was i who started THE "2m rule question" thread"? (emphasis added)

THE ?????????????????????????? :D

Default in 2006 is no 2m rule. But the wording of the 2m rule remains in the new rulebook for those who wish to use it on the course where desired.

Nor did I continue it.


You are continuing it, Nick. Pat mentioned the 2MR in passing as part of separate discussion to make a point about being different from you. Now you have made at least 2 big-***** posts exclusively about the 2MR.

Let it go. You championed the worst rules-ruining campaign in the history of disc golf. Live with it.

I'm glad things are back to normal so quickly...

now that is funny...here let me help...[I'm a potty-mouth!] the 2-meter-rule :o

You championed the worst rules-ruining campaign in the history of disc golf. Live with it.



Gladly Rhett. :D

I think it may end up being one of the best universal approach changes to happen. Now the 2m rule is just another special condition and the concept of 2m within 10m of the basket has been brough up as different than 2m in general.

On many courses it is appropriate, in many courses it is not necessary. Now it is up to the TD/Course pro to decide where is used.

i think disc coach criticized you because you dared constructively criticize the PDGA. fortunately, i don't think he represents any kind of majority...



Just for your enjoyment pleasures:

For - 39

Against - 18

Over 2-1 for the choice of the BOD. This includes both of the threads : "IMPORTANT: New PDGA message board posting policy and account restrictions" : 23 FOR and 13 AGAINST and "A message from Blake T." 16 FOR and 5 AGAINST

There are many multiple postings from MEMBERS and 4 who were neither for or against. This quick inventory was done at 5:45 pm.

And yes, I was bored but also wanted to prove a point to several.


minority...maybe, maybe not



not this time.

I'm glad things are back to normal so quickly...



As predicted, there will still be occasional animosity between some PDGA members on the PDGA Discussion Board, although I wouldn't qualify this recent exchange as excessively offensive/hostile.

i think disc coach criticized you because you dared constructively criticize the PDGA. fortunately, i don't think he represents any kind of majority...



Just for your enjoyment pleasures:

For - 39

Against - 18

Over 2-1 for the choice of the BOD. This includes both of the threads : "IMPORTANT: New PDGA message board posting policy and account restrictions" : 23 FOR and 13 AGAINST and "A message from Blake T." 16 FOR and 5 AGAINST

There are many multiple postings from MEMBERS and 4 who were neither for or against. This quick inventory was done at 5:45 pm.

And yes, I was bored but also wanted to prove a point to several.


minority...maybe, maybe not



not this time.



What the heck does all that mean Paul? Who voted and where? I read the Blake T thread and it seemed to be pretty split. I'm for the ban thank BOD Grunion is gone. I'm against the ban since Blake is gone. Some sort of compramise should happen.

I'm not one to tell others how to manage their finances. I don't know why some folks pay there dues and others don't. I joined the PDGA after 2 months of being introduced to disc golf. I can see the point that one should be able to sell a few discs and get a membership. Or like ERRON you can be the lowest scoring non-member to get your membership paid for. (See LOSO 2004). Whatever it takes there needs to be some sort of accountablilty for posts on a board that represents such a small community.

I'm not responding to you, just to the original topic.

This is message board posting frenzy season. Every year when the sanctioned tournaments are done except for Texas and a few others, the message board lights up.

This board is dead. A frenzy of activity on a dead board equals barely a pulse.

Even so, it is not like running a message board was ever mission critical to the PDGA.

If the PDGA ever acted with a plan or purpose, it would go like this: "Let's totally rewrite the rules and also amend the constitution to eliminate any member rights whatsoever. The first thing we do, let's kill the message board!" But they don't, so don't worry about it.

I think it may end up being one of the best universal approach changes to happen. Now the 2m rule is just another special condition and the concept of 2m within 10m of the basket has been brough up as different than 2m in general.

On many courses it is appropriate, in many courses it is not necessary. Now it is up to the TD/Course pro to decide where is used.



per usual, Gary displays vision, tact, and level-headedness. :D

What's REALLY on your mind, Bruce?

Waiting for confirmation, but apparently you have a passsword to get on here if you were a member within the past few years, when they started assigning them on your member card, even if you are not current in 2005.

I think it's great that non-renewed member can still post. Accountability was the major issue and that doesn't change just because a poster is not PDGA current.

This includes both of the threads : "IMPORTANT: New PDGA message board posting policy and account restrictions" : 23 FOR and 13 AGAINST...


Why would there be votes against this thread? That doesnt make any sense. This is an important topic of discussion that should/is being debated, right?

This includes both of the threads : "IMPORTANT: New PDGA message board posting policy and account restrictions" : 23 FOR and 13 AGAINST...


Why would there be votes against this thread? That doesnt make any sense. This is an important topic of discussion that should/is being debated, right?



I think he meant that 23 people seemed to be FOR the members-only policy, and 13 AGAINST it, not for/against the thread of discussion.

Great, now how about letting us change our displayed names again, since we're all trustworthy.



Any chance?

This includes both of the threads : "IMPORTANT: New PDGA message board posting policy and account restrictions" : 23 FOR and 13 AGAINST...


Why would there be votes against this thread? That doesnt make any sense. This is an important topic of discussion that should/is being debated, right?



I think he meant that 23 people seemed to be FOR the members-only policy, and 13 AGAINST it, not for/against the thread of discussion.


Oh, well it says "threads" and lists the exact titles of them... :confused: It doesnt make sense to see why these, well maybe the "Message from Blake" one because its posting his emails thru this board, would be voted against at all. These two threads are important discussion topics and should be discussed with two sides of the argument from members of this board, IMO. But, that is just my opinion.

I would volenteer to moderate a section of the PDGA message board. I am usually on here at least once or twice a day, sometimes all day.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This includes both of the threads : "IMPORTANT: New PDGA message board posting policy and account restrictions" : 23 FOR and 13 AGAINST...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why would there be votes against this thread? That doesnt make any sense. This is an important topic of discussion that should/is being debated, right?





Did I say VOTES, no where did I say "votes". I really did not say what I meant, which were "opinions" for or against the PDGA making this message board for members only.

Rob stated in a previous thread that I probably did not represent the majority in the decision of making this a members only message board for postings. I went through both threads yesterday after work and listed the members with positive feedback and negative feedback about the issue. There were 39 members who posted something positve toward the BODs stance and 18 who had negative posts. This does not count the multiple post by a member. I read through each and every one of them. Several had changed their stance on the issue and I put them in a seperate catagory as uncommitted or torn between the issue. Somebody might go back and read these threads and come up with a different count or read somebody's opinion differently than I did. That's okay, I did my best at interpreting the posts.

I did not count the 'non-members' or those that used to be able to post because their opinion on this issue and at this time is mute. If they want a voice on this issue then they need to join the PDGA and voice their opinion through the voting process done every year in the election of BOD members.

No where did I state that these were votes. I just stated that that there had been for(positive) and against(negative) comments made by members, because someone said that I did not represent the majority. At the time of my original post I was in the majority of those that had posted.

I think that this is a postive step for the PDGA.

Members are going to get on this board and flame me, and that is fine. I stand by my opinion and will support the BOD. If the BOD decides to open this message board up to non-members again in the future, then I WILL support that too.

That's it for me, my last post on this subject.

Waiting for confirmation, but apparently you have a passsword to get on here if you were a member within the past few years, when they started assigning them on your member card, even if you are not current in 2005.



that is in fact true for now, however do not count on it continuing much longer. i am working on the code for instituting a grace period now. my understanding is that reading the board is for everyone. posting on the board is a benefit of (current) membership. if anyone has an issue with that, please dont take it out on me. i only write the code, not set the policy.

Yes, it is true!

OK, so it looks like I can post just a bit longer. Before I ask the next question, I want to preface it with a remark. I accept the PDGA's decision to limit posting to current members. As a private organization, they have the right to do whatever they feel is in their best interest with their property. I still don't think it's the right decision, but it's their decision to make - not mine.

Now, my question. I have read all the talk about supporting the PDGA and what it's trying to do. I certainly accept this. Were I still in the USA, I would, without a doubt, still be a member.

However, since I live in Switzerland now, what does the PDGA do for me? None of our tournaments in Switzerland are sanctioned and very few that are close enough to travel to are sanctioned. So, I get no discounted entry fees - there goes my financial incentive.

What is the PDGA doing to promote disc golf in southern and central Europe? How is me being a member going to benefit disc golf HERE?

I already pay 100 Swiss francs a year (about $75) to be a member of my local disc golf club. This entitles me to be a member of the SDGV (Schweizer Disc Golf Verband - Swiss Disc Golf Association) and have a license to play in Swisstour events. Without being a member of my local club, I could still get the license for 50 francs a year or pay 10 francs at each tournament that I entered. (There are 8 Swisstour events. You do the math!) This money is used to support disc golf HERE - not in another country. It supports our web sites, our tournaments, and our organization.

Why should I pay extra money to support disc golf in the US?

I am not trying to be rhetorical or facetious. I would like some honest answers to what I think is a fair question.

Are you playing European Rules Disc Golf?

Are you playing European Rules Disc Golf?



Sorry, Bruce. I don't get it. Can you explain that a bit?

Dan, I think it's an all or none decision to be made by many Swiss players and organizers. Certainly there are some benefits individuals can obtain from membership by getting the magazine (and now posting), I think most feel the majority of the benefits occur from sanctioned events, primarily ratings. When several Swiss and/or neighboring country TDs decide to start sanctioning several events, then the benefits will magnify.

For example, Australia started sanctioning events this year with only one PDGA member in attendance at the start. We have a way to kickstart ratings in areas where there are not enough propagators to generate ratings the normal way and get things underway for many new members. Your Swiss compatriots need to look into what's involved with a PDGA relationship like several other countries are now doing.

Dan - I think Bruce was using a bit of sarcasm to illustrate a point. The PDGA is the sport's governing body and has established/codified the rules of the sport of disc golf. My guess (as is Bruce's) is that even in Switzerland, you play by the rules established by the PDGA.

I think that were any volunteers in Europe (or indeed anywhere in the world) to step up and make it known to the PDGA that they wanted to start an effort to establish a larger PDGA presence in Europe, then they would find the PDGA would be as helpful as they could be. Realistically though Dan, the PDGA doesn't do much to help any tournament director host a tournament in the US either...we are still largely a volunteer run sport. It would be interesting however to see a European entity really make a push for hosting a large sanctioned event over there. I'm thinking that there might be a fairly sizeable showing of US players that would travel over there for such an event just to show their support. I know of several players that HAVE travelled to Europe and Japan to play in events over there.

I'd suggest that you find someone on that side of the Atlantic pond to really begin pushing for PDGA sanctioning and events and you will see a corresponding effort on the part of the PDGA.

Chuck, it is my understanding that in order to generate ratings, there must be at least 14 holes at the course in question. Is this correct?

If it is, we have problems here. Switzerland is a very small country. 70% of the land is mountainous. We don't have the room for courses that the USA does. Of the 15 courses I can think of off the top of my head, only 2 of them have more than 12 holes. Can you generate ratings from a 9 or 12 hole course?

Even if you could, what good does it really do us HERE to have ratings?

Many 9 and 12 hole courses are used for events and get ratings. They just submit results for 2 rounds added together so that an 18 or 24 hole round is rated. I don't think I've really even tried to persuade someone they should join just so they could get ratings. However, many players are way more excited about tracking their performance using ratings than I ever expected. It's up to you and your regional players to determine whether you feel ratings and related competitive information are worthwhile. What I do think is cool is that someone from across the globe can know they play about as well as someone else with the same rating and compare their advancement this way. This global village idea, which was the appeal of the internet, gets me excited about the future of international partnerships with the PDGA.

Ching, I think the problem - at least here in Switzerland - is that the PDGA is viewed as an American organization and not as an international one. The general opinion of the Swiss is that the Americans don't really know anything about what goes on in the rest of the world and frankly, they don't care.

I've talked to several former PDGA members from Switzerland in the last week and asked them why they are no longer members. They all said the same thing - there's nothing in it for us. That's why I'm trying to get some input about what the PDGA could offer Switzerland. Until the Swiss players see a real reason to join the PDGA, they're not going to do it.

What is the PDGA doing to promote disc golf in southern and central Europe?


well for starters, they dropped the 2MR so that the huge minority of US based players would be consistent with the incredible majority of players who are based in sweden.

I'm assuming that the U.S. doesn't dominate several international sports organizations, especially for sports that didn't originate in the U.S., perhaps like soccer. My guess is that countries who are newer to a sport adopt rules, organizations, scoring and ranking methods from existing structures. The U.S. happened to invent and generate higher participation in disc golf before other areas. It has a ratings model that works and is becoming accepted in other parts of the world. Rejecting the PDGA just because it's in the U.S. would be like the U.S. rejecting FIFA for the World Cup and starting their own World Championship. Perhaps it's hard to see it that way since the U.S. is a major player in so many arenas. But ratings have no color, nationality, gender, politics or religious connections.

Why should I pay extra money to support disc golf in the US?



If that is how you see it Dan, then what answer could we possibly offer?

You need to answer this for yourself. Each one of us has answered this ourselves. If the answer is "nothing", then there you have it. If it is "something", like rules, standards or even this message board, then there you have it.

It is up to you in the end.

What is the PDGA doing to promote disc golf in southern and central Europe?


well for starters, they dropped the 2MR so that the huge minority of US based players would be consistent with the incredible majority of players who are based in sweden.



Typical American. Which part of central or southern Europe is Sweden in?

Atypical.. Is what you meant, I would hope.

is that the PDGA is viewed as an American organization and not as an international one.



Unfortunately the front page of the PDGA website now has a logo that would seem to promote �Professional Disc Golf of the United States of America� PDGUSA is a bit cumbersome.

I hope they change that image to a picture of the globe, maybe with North America facing the viewer if the idea is to show where the PDGA HQ is. We used to be in Canada and that gave something of an international flavor. I hope the goal is to be *the* international headquarters for golf, and if it is maybe we should be careful not to create the impression that America is the center of the universe. That probably turns a lot of non-Americans off...

working to create a PDGA event in Europe might be far-sighted... even if we debuted it for free and it generated ratings for competitors to plant interest.
If a European branch of the PDGA could be started it would bode well for the popularity and goodwill of our sport.

just spouting ideas...

nice catch dan. but the point was not that Switzerland is in either of those regions. i was just pointing out that the pdga DOES in fact take non-US regions into consideration.

by the way, i've done business on the ground in England, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and China. i've also lived in China. i'm pretty sure i know where central and southern europe are. :cool:

working to create a PDGA event in Europe might be far-sighted... even if we debuted it for free and it generated ratings for competitors to plant interest. If a European branch of the PDGA could be started it would bode well for the popularity and goodwill of our sport.



I think Scandanavia counts as Europe and there are more than a dozen PDGA sanctioned events there this year. If you're thinking more central Europe, the Berlin and British Opens were sanctioned this year. So, Europe is gradually building. It sounds like southern Europe will take a longer time to come around since there are currently no courses listed in Spain, Italy, Greece or countries that used to be part of Yugoslavia.

Switzerland, Sweden what's the difference? :o

Switzerland, Sweden what's the difference? :o



It's funny you should say this. When my wife and I were dating and I would tell people that my girlfriend lived in Switzerland, I would estimate that 80-90% of the time the next response was one of two questions.

Is she tall and blonde?

or

Does she speak Swedish?

The second question is doubly stupid. Why wouldn't someone speak the language of their home country? :D

If a European branch of the PDGA could be started it would bode well for the popularity and goodwill of our sport.



This is a great idea. Why not start the EPDGA? The European PDGA could pay a small fee to the PDGA each year to help maintain the parent organization (A licensing fee?). With the exception of this fee, the money would stay in Europe to help the spread of disc golf here. I'm sure if the European community thought that there money was being spent here instead of in the US, a rise in European membership would occur.

It would have to be decided how far the rights of members in both organizations would extend. It probably wouldn't be right for Americans to vote for European officers and vice versa. But as far as tournaments, message board, ratings, etc., it could go across the board.

Opinions?

I'd have been in the 10-20% who might have asked if she had holey wheys? :)

Incidentally, for all concerned, I have decided to renew my membership next year. I discovered that I can renew for $20 without the magazine. That's about 30 minutes work for me, I think I can swing it!

It's hard to change an organization from the outside. Although I think the PDGA has done and continues to do great things for the sport, I do think that Europe is being, to some extent, ignored. I think I'll have a better chance to change this as a member than as a non-member.

I have a quick question regarding this. If I send my renewal between now and the end of the year, am I renewing for 2006? I don't want to pay for just the last month of 2005!

And Nick, no more comments about my level of commitment to the PDGA! :p

If I send my renewal between now and the end of the year, am I renewing for 2006?



Yes

Dan, that sounds like a great idea.

I also like the idea of a discount for players outside of North America. (for PDGA membership and PDGA tournament fees) This would encourage more PDGA tournaments in other countries.

As membership grows, then you could justify regular fees.

But the idea of PDGA Europe is a great idea. A PDGA Europian tour with the finals held before Pro Worlds would be cool.

Switzerland, Sweden what's the difference? :o



It's funny you should say this. When my wife and I were dating and I would tell people that my girlfriend lived in Switzerland, I would estimate that 80-90% of the time the next response was one of two questions.

Is she tall and blonde?

or

Does she speak Swedish?

The second question is doubly stupid. Why wouldn't someone speak the language of their home country? :D



I was razzing Sandelman actually. But that is funny.

Does your wife like swiss cheese? or chocolate better? or clocks? or army knives? :)

If a European branch of the PDGA could be started it would bode well for the popularity and goodwill of our sport.



This is a great idea. Why not start the EPDGA? The European PDGA could pay a small fee to the PDGA each year to help maintain the parent organization (A licensing fee?). With the exception of this fee, the money would stay in Europe to help the spread of disc golf here. I'm sure if the European community thought that there money was being spent here instead of in the US, a rise in European membership would occur.

It would have to be decided how far the rights of members in both organizations would extend. It probably wouldn't be right for Americans to vote for European officers and vice versa. But as far as tournaments, message board, ratings, etc., it could go across the board.

Opinions?



i think that the message board should definitely be closed. i mean we are: Americans: why would we want to talk to anyone else? :D

just kidding. i love my country but i think it is time we start seeing other people /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif (from a t-shirt or bumber sticker -- i forget which)