Guess who won the cross canyon?

A pro.

This is the dumbest thing the PDGA has ever done.

What ever happened to amatuerism? Once I accept, I am pro for life. This is going to be a problem all year I think.

I hate this rule. Bring back Pro - 2. And I thought Pro - 2 was dumb - this is just flat out rediculous.

maybe lower the rating requirement to something like 930.

If you are good enough to cash once in a pro event and you accepted, you should not be playing am!!!!!

Guess what? Semi-pros have been been winning 'Advanced' for years (JJ ring a bell for example?). Most pros are semi-pros, too. They just play on the other side of the fence for cash at the same skill level as the semi-pros playing for merch. There's nothing wrong with Advanced winning merch or 'pros' winning cash. What has been wrong is they should be playing together if they're in the same rating range. Now they can compete together. The only true pros in our sport are those who make their living at it and that's a handful over 1000 rating. Everyone else is just swapping each other's money for merch or cash, little difference. It's true that many pros and ams act professionally. But that isn't enough to make them 'pros' making a living at it as in other sports, no matter how much we wish it were true.

just let it go, mouth.
the plastic you're gambling for is worth money to someone.

step it up.

First of all there are maybee 3 people who make a living playing disk golf, and I am sure that there are others that try but there is no money in it. It is a sport that most of us play for fun, and if we are not pro they how can we play in the pro division?

Has anyone ever ran road races???

Everyone races against each other. There are professional runners up against weekend warriors, there is only one winner of one race except for male/female. (Sometimes they will give age division winners prizes) but other then that you race for the trophy and bigger events give the top finishers cash.

Feel lucky that there are divisions. I truly feel that the people who can cash in the Open or Age protected Open divisions, even on the local level, will stay there. Like Chuck basically said, these people moving down are not good enough to cash in open. The general population of disc golfers is likely getting better. The advanced players of today could probably be the pros of ten years ago. But this is now, the problem may lie in the fact that there are too many MA2 players playing in the MA1 division.

I personally doubt that reassigning divisions by player rating will be entirely effective, after all we are dealing with peoples pride. If I were to go to Mid Nationals, based on my player rating I would be in the Recreational division, even though I competitively compete in the MA1 division, my few rated rounds (not enough PDGA events in my area) were really bad when I started competeting. But luckily for all the other Rec players, I will not attend Mid Nationals, I am getting married that week.

If you are good enough to cash once in a pro event and you accepted, you should not be playing am!!!!!

If you're good enough to cash in a pro event PERIOD, you should not be playing AM, regardless of whether or not you accepted.

If you are good enough to cash once in a pro event and you accepted, you should not be playing am!!!!!

If you're good enough to cash in a pro event PERIOD, you should not be playing AM, regardless of whether or not you accepted.



well im good enough to cash in pro - I'm just going to am world doubles.

Even though my rating is below 955, I refuse to accept and then go back down to am

Tizzle,
I think you should decline in Adv @ the Buckhorn,
this way you save the money, possibly win, but no one can call you bagger cause you didn't take anything.
Problem Solved!!

Perhaps there are a number of people who do not like losing or don't like challenges, this is why the play in a lower division then their capable.

There is a guy I know that refuses to play in a tournament unless he will win. He has been playing for 5 years, beaten my score on a number of occasions and still plays intermediate because he cannot always win in advanced.

Did the PDGA not make the ruling that if even you take prizes in lieu of cash in the open division it is still just like accepting the money and you relinquish your amateur status?

I will see you in San Saba, Chef.....

This has nothing to do with the immorality of individuals, it has to do with a competitive system based on a "look the other way" falsehood.

That falsehood is that Organized Disc Golf has an "Amateur Class". It does not, and arguably never has had one.

There is a fundamental element lacking in our use of the word Amateur. An element fundamental to "BEING" and Amateur.

No, not that you suck.
No, not that you pay lower entry fees.
No, not that you don't love disc golf as much.
No, not that you aren't committed to being an important part of the growth of our sport.

It is that you play for "REWARD" and not purely "for the love of the game".

No matter how you slice it, your motivation and mindset is not that of a true amateur sportsman.

ALL DISC GOLF COMPETITIVE SYSTEM WHOAS ARISE FROM THIS DEFICIANCY.

This has nothing to do with the immorality of individuals, it has to do with a competitive system based on a "look the other way" falsehood.

That falsehood is that Organized Disc Golf has an "Amateur Class". It does not, and arguably never has had one.

There is a fundamental element lacking in our use of the word Amateur. An element fundamental to "BEING" and Amateur.

No, not that you suck.
No, not that you pay lower entry fees.
No, not that you don't love disc golf as much.
No, not that you aren't committed to being an important part of the growth of our sport.

It is that you play for "REWARD" and not purely "for the love of the game".

No matter how you slice it, your motivation and mindset is not that of a true amateur sportsman.

ALL DISC GOLF COMPETITIVE SYSTEM WHOAS ARISE FROM THIS DEFICIANCY.



And I fully agree. There is one reason I do not publicly call myself a professional disc golfer; I do not play for cash. Currency is the generally accepted form of barter in this nation. Sure I can trade discs but that is only amongst fellow disc golfers. I consider myself a professional by the nature of which I compete in the sport, the amount of time I put into practice (not just playing rounds), how I present myself to other players, my intentions on my competitive future in the sport, and that when I compete, I expect some sort of compensation for my placement, ie merchandise currently in lieu of cash. I am a professional in all ways except for the division I currently play in. As soon as I regularly beat the bottom 1/3 of the players in the Open division I will move up, regardless of my player rating.

There is no argument there, just a statement of preference. I'm sure the pro who beat you prefers the new format as much as you do not. Explain for us why it is bad for the sport for a 950 rated pro to compete against a 950 rated amateur.

If your good enough to cash in pro M_TizzLe, then play pro and stop bagging. I am not good enough to play pro yet, that is why I play AM

I agree with Tizzle. Its a complete crock that people that KNOWINGLY went Pro and KNEW they could never play am again all the sudden get to drop back down and play with people who make the decision to NOT ACCEPT cash and play in the amature division. They accepted knowing that they would no longer be able to play as an amature and that was THEIR decision. No one MADE them be a pro. They decided to and whether or not they can compete or not doesnt have anything to do with it. If they cant compete they obviously made the wrong decision and they should have to live with that. Im sorry but thats just the way it is. If you guys are going to do this then it should be alot lower then 955. I think it should be around 930 like Tizzle said.

I know that if im playing in a tournament and im beating everyone but a PRO then im going to be pretty upset about it. JJ is not an example. JJ decided to stay an amature. Pure and simple. He decided to deny cash and not become a pro so therefore he is still an amature by our standards and i have no problem with him kickin my ACE all over the course because he made the decision to deny cash and stay am. What i do have a problem with is people playing in my division that made the choice to accept and not play am EVER again and now those people get to move down and play with me after THEY made the decision to move up. I just dont think that its fair. If you decide to become a pro ball golfer then you cant hack it they say. Sorry about your luck have fun applying for am status back, Which by the way is a pain in the ACE to do. I think you have to not play any events for atleast a year and then they might not even give you your am status back anyway. If these guys that made the choice to move up want to not play sanctioned event for a year and do some other stuff to get their am status back then thats fine with me but they shouldnt be able to just pop up on the radar at the big tournaments and then still play pro at B and C tiers. Thats just a crock.

There is no argument there, just a statement of preference. I'm sure the pro who beat you prefers the new format as much as you do not. Explain for us why it is bad for the sport for a 950 rated pro to compete against a 950 rated amateur.

for the record, he didn't beat MtL since he was at home on the computer. he did beat me, and i have no problem with that. i was probably rated higher than he was anyway.

maybe lower the rating requirement to something like 930.

If you are good enough to cash once in a pro event and you accepted, you should not be playing am!!!!!




the guy that won the CCC has a 930 rating..

i might have lost to one pro, but i beat another one....

:o

I'm glad b/c I didn't want that **** tool set anyway.

best 2nd place prize.... ever


anyone want to buy a channellock tool set?

Millz has not been playing long enough to realize this, but at one time all of the divisions had one-way doors. To get invited to Am Worlds you had to sign up as an advanced player to get advanced points, and once having done so, you were not allowed to ever play intermediate again. Sucky old men like me had to sign up as "Advanced" Masters and then we were forbidden from playing intermediate thereafter.

Was it a crock last year, Millz, when you were allowed to win prizes in advanced in February and then drop back and play intermediate in May and June? How is this any different?

Millz' argument seems to be that these players are taking advantage of a rule or format change that operates in their favor, and that this is somehow unfair. Can we expect that at tournaments where the two-meter rule is not in effect this year Millz will voluntarily take a penalty if he is stuck over two meters? When Millz joined the PDGA he knowingly joined an organization that punished that kind of bad throw. Why should he now get to skate on the penalty he knowingly accepted?

Was it a crock last year, Millz, when you were allowed to win prizes in advanced in February and then drop back and play intermediate in May and June? How is this any different?



Yeah that is a crock and i feel bad for the people who i beat in the intermediate division. I took advantaged of the rules but it doesnt mean that the rules are good ones or that its not a crock.


Millz' argument seems to be that these players are taking advantage of a rule or format change that operates in their favor, and that this is somehow unfair. Can we expect that at tournaments where the two-meter rule is not in effect this year Millz will voluntarily take a penalty if he is stuck over two meters? When Millz joined the PDGA he knowingly joined an organization that punished that kind of bad throw. Why should he now get to skate on the penalty he knowingly accepted?



This is not the same thing because the No 2 meter penalty applies to EVERYONE not just people who made a decision and now dont have to live with the decision that they made. If the 2 meter rule isnt in affect then NO ONE has to take a penatly. If a pro wants to play am he has to have a rating of 955 or less.

I mean if thats fair then lets let the 1000+ rated players play in the advanced division if they dont want to pay the big entry fees. What a crock.

All you guys talk about is eliminating sand bagging but then you guys go and make a rule that PROMOTES sandbagging and brings more SANDBAGGERS into the advanced division. This is the worst rules change i have ever seen. They have a Nation Wide Tour for the not so sweet pros in ball golf. Bring back the Pro 2 division and let these not so good pros play against eachother not against me and my other 930 rated golfers :mad:

The more time i spend as a PDGA memeber the worse i feel like the PDGA becomes. They need to step it up and start making good solid decisions based on what EVERYONE wants not on just what a bunch of volunteers want. I feel like they are making a select few good decisions like the no beer rule and the collared shirt rule but then they follow up with this pros playing am rule and that just KILLS all the good decisions that they made.

Im starting to feel like the board and people who make decisions only care about what is good for them and could care less what everyone else wants.

This is just my opinion but im starting to be unhappy with the PDGA but i stay a member because it saves me money, NOT because i think the PDGA is doing the best thing for the sport.

Until Amatuers stop playing for plastic coins, which are more difficult to spend at the mall, the Open and Advanced border should a two-way road, like the rest of the divisional breaks.

Or until being a Pro means you can live off of your winnings. By that time, you'll have to qualify to be a Pro.

I agree

What about areas where there are not a bunch of 950ish rated advanced players? In case you didn't know, that's most of the country besides MI, NC, and maybe a few other places. I haven't looked at the stats but I bet the average rating of someone who wins Adv. is around 940. In some areas it's even less, with 920 rated players winning(playing around 920 golf during the tournament, not just their rating).

Let's say a 950 pro decides to play Adv. this year. Let's say there's approximately the same players at the tournaments(17) I played this past year, and this player decides to play those. Hypothetically, if he shoots his rating at every tournament he would probably would win at least half of those, and finish in the top 5 at the rest. Does this seem fair?

I can't wait for the end of the season when the PDGA gets rid of this stupid rule. It may work great for some areas, but the majority of players that play Adv. in a lot of places are UNDER the 915 mark.

All you guys talk about is eliminating sand bagging but then you guys go and make a rule that PROMOTES sandbagging and brings more SANDBAGGERS into the advanced division. This is the worst rules change i have ever seen. They have a Nation Wide Tour for the not so sweet pros in ball golf. Bring back the Pro 2 division and let these not so good pros play against eachother not against me and my other 930 rated golfers



As with ANY rule, there are going to be those who use it to their advantage. There are always those who just cant take the pressure.. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif The "spirit" of this change is to benefit those who play in divisions with minimal players, ie Women, Grands, etc..It allows those players to compete with players of EQUAL abilities in larger fields.
Ill tell you as the "Author and Propontent" of one of the first and longest running "PDGA approved" bump rules (which has graciously been recinded :mad:) I COULD look at this as a "step backwards", BUT I see the bigger picture, that allows players like Neal Hoellwarth to play Doubles this weekend with his Advanced Player Son. Neal has been a "PRO" for nearly 15 years, when he signed up there was NO OTHER division.....Im sure his 895 rating scares you to death /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
OR
Ruth Steele, Carrie Burlogar & Anni Kreml who regularly show up to play against only themselves.....It will be nice for them to have the option of beating up on some Am Men for a change.. :o
Overall its a good change....deal with it.. :D

Couple things...

Can an advanced player who has never taken cash and is rated over 970 still play advanced? If so then this person is a greater 'bagger' than the pro moving down who is rated 949.

When I was competition director I would receive petitions all the time from pro's who wanted to move back down to the am divisions. I let about 3 out 25 move back down... luckily I never heard any complaining about it.

A 950 guy who took cash once still plays at an advanced level. The new rule is good for players who used to be good but have 'gotten a life' since then and their game has suffered. It used to be that these people were forced to still play open and donate their money... not much fun. Those people would also tend to give up on disc golf... not something that is good for the sport... we need to keep our players playing.

Anyone who's rating is low that drops down and wins a couple tournaments will see their rating go back above the line eventually.

Ratings are fair. The cut off line is fair. It will all work out.

-tB

As a side note, while I was preparing invites for the Mid-Nationals, I noticed Anni Kreml is the top seed in the White division (under 925>) with her current 924 rating. Pros & Ams, men & women, old & young will be competing together purely on ratings. www.midnationals.com (http://www.midnationals.com)

Can an advanced player who has never taken cash and is rated over 970 still play advanced? If so then this person is a greater 'bagger' than the pro moving down who is rated 949.



I agree with this. Add a cap to Advanced and then let every move up and down as their rating or pride lets them.

If you are good enough to cash once in a pro event and you accepted, you should not be playing am!!!!!

If you're good enough to cash in a pro event PERIOD, you should not be playing AM, regardless of whether or not you accepted.



well im good enough to cash in pro - I'm just going to am world doubles.

Sorry, but people have been hiding behind that excuse for years. Bottom line is, if you've finished in the cash in a pro division and you're still taking the merch when you win in ADV, you're bagging. If it's really about playing Am Worlds, either play up and decline the cash between now and then or decline whatever merch you win in AM.

Or until being a Pro means you can live off of your winnings. By that time, you'll have to qualify to be a Pro.

[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately I dont think that we will ever even be close to the PGA's payout.

Justin Leonard- Bob Hope Chrysler Classic
$846,000 + a 2005 Chrysler Crossfire

Ken Climo- 1st place- United States Disc Golf Championships- $10,000

Plus his royalities and incentives from Innova....

Can an advanced player who has never taken cash and is rated over 970 still play advanced? If so then this person is a greater 'bagger' than the pro moving down who is rated 949.



I agree with this. Add a cap to Advanced and then let every move up and down as their rating or pride lets them.



There ya go.

Another 'bagging' problem is high rated ams who keep playing am because they want to play am worlds.

I always thought that since invites for 2005 am worlds are based on play in 2004 then the pdga should still allow ams who moved to pro in 2005 should still be allowed to play the 2005 am worlds even if they cash in a pro event in 2005.

This would accomplish a couple things...

1. Removes the MAIN excuse for staying adv. that most adv. players use (it's a good excuse... don't get me wrong).

2. Put more players in the open pool... anyone playing in 2005 am worlds who plays a few 2005 pro events will improve their game quite a bit... they may not cash but the improvement in thier game will help at am worlds.

3. If the adv. player in question doesn't cash in 2005 while playing open then they can still go to am worlds next year... they didn't lose anything.

what do you think?

-tB

Calling it the Semi-Pro Worlds (and creating a new 'prizeless' Am Worlds) would make this idea even better :)

Can an advanced player who has never taken cash and is rated over 970 still play advanced? If so then this person is a greater 'bagger' than the pro moving down who is rated 949.



I agree with this. Add a cap to Advanced and then let every move up and down as their rating or pride lets them.



I'd support this plan so long as we ended our silly practice of calling these protected "for profit" divisions amateur.

Amateur should be more than just a shell of a word slapped on something that is completely unrelated to what the word has meant. It seems to be a growing trend though along with words like "Conservative", "Liberal" and "Freedom". Very disturbing indeed.

Thank you Todd Branch for your words of support.

That guy with the really cool Tony Tiger disc adds:

Add a cap to Advanced and then let every move up and down as their rating or pride lets them.

We discussed (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=306737&Main=291819#Post306737) that for a bit before thread drift took over.

Being one of the pro players who requested to move down last year, I personally like the rule. However, I see your point.

I am rated 950, I have never done better than getting 2 times my money back in any Pro event I have played. (in fact, I only cashed again after a LONG time of not cashing) I have always finished a few strokes out of the money in Pro, yet don't have a score to win Advance.

One note, 2003, with the new ratings in place for Adv, Am, Rec, I had fewer Advance players than several years before. Now for 2004, the Adv division was back to one of the larger division.

And, as one last note. Who cares if Pros moved back down. The TD or Club will make money off them. You don't make a dime off Pro's now do you :D

What about areas where there are not a bunch of 950ish rated advanced players?



Like Rochester, New York, (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4235#Advanced) perhaps? Two thirds of the players playing advanced at that tournament can play intermediate if they don't want to compete against advanced rated players. If they do want to compete against advanced rated players, now they merely have a few more to compete against.

If Todd only had 25 requests to move back down I don't see how this was a big enough problem to even change the original setup??? Why doesn't the PDGA worry about the widespread problems that people actually care about. I mean 25 pros out of how many members in the PDGA?? and we spent time on this???

Thank you Todd Branch for your words of support.

That guy with the really cool Tony Tiger disc adds:

Add a cap to Advanced and then let every move up and down as their rating or pride lets them.

We discussed (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=306737&Main=291819#Post306737) that for a bit before thread drift took over.



It's grrrrrreat, isn't it? I wonder who created such a masterpiece? :)

Just trying to bring back up the Advanced cap since it, like everything else on topic, got buried by the drift.

It may work great for some areas, but the majority of players that play Adv. in a lot of places are UNDER the 915 mark.


Anyone who plays Advanced with a rating UNDER 915 should take their freaking lumps and shut the hell up.

Or else they should play in the Intermediate division where they belong.

The number 1 reason for hate and discont in the PDGA: people playing above their recommended division and getting smoked by people who are playing where they should play.

If Todd only had 25 requests to move back down I don't see how this was a big enough problem to even change the original setup??? Why doesn't the PDGA worry about the widespread problems that people actually care about. I mean 25 pros out of how many members in the PDGA?? and we spent time on this???



whoa!

My competition director days were a few years ago.
This new rule wasn't based on how many people petitioned to move back down. I would bet that for every person who actually took the time to petition to move down that there were 5 more who wanted to but didn't take the time to petition or even know that they could petition.

I would imagine (since I am long out of the loop with PDGA decision making) that since we now have our ratings program going strong then we should use them (ratings) to try to put players in their proper divisions.

As previously stated: Some players used to play at a pro level and now (for whatever reason) don't. Should we just let them quit because they can't compete and can't move down? No we shouldn't. We want to keep our players playing.

Q: How can we do that?
A: Let them move back down if their skill level has degraded to a sub-pro level.
Q: How do we know if thier skill level has degraded to a sub-pro level?
A: Look at thier rating.

Not much time or energy spent to make that decision.

-tB

the thing is, that if their rating if low enough to be am...then they are still an AM....its not like Climo is comin down to play adv....esp the people complainin about being able to go back to INT...if a 900 rated player played pro...this doesnt mean they are PRO...they are still a 900 rated player....cashin pros are not movin back down..jsut peope that gave it a try and moved back....your throwin the term pro around too losely

the thing is, that if their rating if low enough to be am...



Therein lies the ultimate misconception of "amateurism". Amateurs do not suck, they just "CHOOSE" not to play for profit. Therein is where disc golf's use of "amateur" fails.

Do you mind not cluttering the discussion with what this organization considers Amatuer and what everyone else considers Amatuer? That is semantics.

Ill tell you as the "Author and Propontent" of one of the first and longest running "PDGA approved" bump rules (which has graciously been recinded ) I COULD look at this as a "step backwards", BUT I see the bigger picture, that allows players like Neal Hoellwarth to play Doubles this weekend with his Advanced Player Son. Neal has been a "PRO" for nearly 15 years, when he signed up there was NO OTHER division.....Im sure his 895 rating scares you to death




895. That would be below the 930 or 920 which would be alot better of a cut off line because 950 players can cash at B and C tiers in Open they just tend to not cash At SuperTours and NTs where there is better competition. Oh well. Its was their choice to go pro and they should have to deal with that choice.


The "spirit" of this change is to benefit those who play in divisions with minimal players, ie Women, Grands, etc..It allows those players to compete with players of EQUAL abilities in larger fields.



EQUAL is the key word in this sentence. EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL. 955 rated players that are moving down are not moving to a division with EQUALLY skilled players. They are moving down and shooting 2 strokes better a round then the average or above average advanced player. There are 60 Advanced players in the ENTIRE PDGA that have a rating that is 955 or better. I know for a fact that atleast 20 of them are moving up to Open this year. So these PROs that are moving down have about 40 people MAX that are going to be playing at their skill level. 40 people in the WHOLE FREAKIN COUNTRY. So MAYBE just MAYBE they will run into another one at a tournament when they move down. That in my opinion is a complete CROCK OF *****!!!!!!!!!!!! Now if the rating cut off was dropped to say 935 then there will be about 600 players right around the same skill level as them. THAT would be a fair cut off line.

There are 550 players registerd in the Open division with a rating between 945 and 965 which is a 1 stroke varience from 955 up and down. They have about 500 more competitors at their skill level in OPEN then they will when they move down to Advanced. This it the worst move i have seen by the PDGA in the 1.5 years i have been a member. You are basically saying hey if you dont want to compete against guys at your skill level then move down and beat up on the advanced guys by 2 strokes a round. This is REDICULOUS!!!!!!!! There are only 600 pros that are rated above 955 in the first place. 600 across the ENTIRE country. There are over 800 Open players that have a rating that is below 955 so there is plenty of competition for these players. If you take 600 and divide it by about 45 states that have disc golf in the continental us then thats about 13 Players per state that are rated over 955 and 18 Open players per state that are rated below 955.

This rule change it not only unfair its not even logical. Your backing up the rule saying they are gaining competition by moving down but in all actuallity they are LOSING A TON of equally skilled competitors. Just take a look at the numbers yourself and you will see how this is the worst rule change for the mens Pro and Advanced division in the history of the sport.


They could have made it only a rule that applied to divisions where there is little to no turn out. IE Womens divisions and Grand Masters Divisions. I dont see this as being a good rules change. I say bring back Pro 2 and let that be a breeding ground for lesser pros untill they can actually move back up and hack it. Dont throw them down with me and the other 930 and below rated guys which make up most of the Advanced Division. Plus if all the 954 and below guys move down to my division you are taking away the lively hood of our Tour Pros which in turn will have them playing less and getting real jobs because now they cant make enough money to stay on tour. Then you will not grow the Touring end of the sport which is what we want to do. The casual and Rec end of the sport will ALWAYS be there but if you cant make any money being a pro then why go on tour at all???

Thats just my 2 cents

I was surprised that half of the Advanced field at the Memorial was in the Intermediate rating range, even though Intermediate is a division that's offered. The top rated Advanced player is only 949. I suspect that this is what we'll see in the early season since the top Advanced from last year have moved on to Pro. Once the new up and comers ratings catch up with them by the July update, we'll see many more Advanced with ratings over 955 in summer events. Plus, the new ratings process starting with the mid-May update will move up the ratings of fast improving players faster.

So, in the early events, it's possible the pros with ratings below 955 sliding over (not playing down) to Advanced might fare pretty well since their ratings are more stable. However, I fully expect the fast track Ams to pass us by in short order and leave the pros who slide over in the dust as the season progresses.

the thing is, that if their rating if low enough to be am...



Therein lies the ultimate misconception of "amateurism". Amateurs do not suck, they just "CHOOSE" not to play for profit. Therein is where disc golf's use of "amateur" fails.



That is a generalization.
some amateurs suck
some amateurs would play for profit if they could
some amateurs will play for profit in the future
some amateurs DO play for profit

-tB

Do you mind not cluttering the discussion with what this organization considers Amatuer and what everyone else considers Amatuer? That is semantics.



It also happens to be the root cause of all of this bitterness and disfunction...

That is generally yhe problem when complaints of "Bagging" start up. The playes that are accused of bagging are playing in the appropriate division, and the complainers are playing well above what their rating indicates. Just playing in the "Advanced" division with a 900 rating does not make you a good golfer, or mean you should have a realistic chance of winning.

If that were the case, I'd take my 914 rating to the pros and win up there. No wait, that doesn't work either, tried it and got slapped back down.

Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against playing above your rating for enjoyment, game improvement, or just because you like sound of the division name. I do have a problem with players playing up and complaining that the competition in that division (with proper ratings) are bagging. I would not consider a 955 rated player as bagging in Am whether they would cash in a pro event or not. I also know that a 930 rated player can compete with and beat a 955 rated player (or at least that a 914 rated player can compete with a 939 rated player and win).

That is generally yhe problem when complaints of "Bagging" start up. The playes that are accused of bagging are playing in the appropriate division, and the complainers are playing well above what their rating indicates. Just playing in the "Advanced" division with a 900 rating does not make you a good golfer, or mean you should have a realistic chance of winning.

If that were the case, I'd take my 914 rating to the pros and win up there. No wait, that doesn't work either, tried it and got slapped back down.

Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against playing above your rating for enjoyment, game improvement, or just because you like sound of the division name. I do have a problem with players playing up and complaining that the competition in that division (with proper ratings) are bagging. I would not consider a 955 rated player as bagging in Am whether they would cash in a pro event or not. I also know that a 930 rated player can compete with and beat a 955 rated player (or at least that a 914 rated player can compete with a 939 rated player and win).



I have a problem with anyone complaining about "bagging" in a "Classification" where "profit" is not supposed to be a consideration. Unbelievable that I need to point this out.

...and I am not saying that players of various skill levels do not need or deserve "protection" from superior players all playing for each others entry fees, but that there needs to be a classification where playing for each others entry fees is NOT going on.

It may work great for some areas, but the majority of players that play Adv. in a lot of places are UNDER the 915 mark.


Anyone who plays Advanced with a rating UNDER 915 should take their freaking lumps and shut the hell up.

Or else they should play in the Intermediate division where they belong.

The number 1 reason for hate and discont in the PDGA: people playing above their recommended division and getting smoked by people who are playing where they should play.



Hear Hear! I play Advanced Masters, and I'm an 835 rated player. I know I'm going to get thrashed, that's my choice. If I don't like it I can drop down to Rec. If the only reason you're playing is to get that win then you should at least play where your rating puts you.

The other problem with this is anyone can have bad rounds. And if they generally come in the few tournaments that the said Pro plays in then those rounds are used for ratings. That doesnt mean that he or she doesnt play at a Pro level it just means that they had some bad tournaments. To me that means they need to get out and practice. If you were at that level before then you can reach it again.

I mean it seems to me that there are alot more Adv players that are waiting for Am worlds to move up than there are Pros wanting to move down. So why is this rule here and that issue not resolved. :confused:

That would be below the 930 or 920 which would be alot better of a cut off line because 950 players can cash at B and C tiers in Open they just tend to not cash At SuperTours and NTs where there is better competition. Oh well. Its was their choice to go pro and they should have to deal with that choice.



that sure sounds good to you, doesn't it? You have any facts to back it up?

i see only adv. "amateurs" complaining about the rule change. They're just mad cause it will now be harder for them to "cash?!" at an "amateur" event. wait, wait... i hear the flower children calling, "please, please pro golfer don't move back to my division and make it harder for me to win crap."

new rule = good
MTL and the whiners = bad

I was sampling a bunch of Adv. tournaments to see what sort of scores win and found that to win in advanced you need to shoot ~950 to win at medium sized events and ~980 to win larger events.

GLO 976
Flatts Classic 980
quanset hut 948
PDFO 959
Can Am Finals 969
Indiana open 972
Iron Wood 959

950 seems like a pretty good line... if you shoot your rating you prolly won't win.

Now... these guys who drop down might shoot above their rating due to some psycological reasons. Their confidence will be up while their opponents confidence may be down... but that's just something the players need to get past.

940 might be a better line but it looks like we're stuck with the current cut-off for 2005.

-tB

The rule is almost needed for the very small divisions that often do not have enough to make a division much any kind of a pot to play for. Giving them a place to compete is a really good idea.

GLO 976 Romine and slater WENT OFF during that tournament. I got 5th with 2 930 rounds and a 986 round
Flatts Classic 980 Romine also WENT OFF at this tournament and made it into the Final 9 which was decided by the best 5 scorees of the TOURNAMENT
quanset hut 948
PDFO 959
Can Am Finals 969 Romine was Second and WENT OFF there again.
Indiana open 972
Iron Wood 959




2 of those tournaments Josh Romine won by just absolutley GOING OFF and have super hot rounds and the other one he did the same but lost on the last hole when Kim Scott Wood drilled a 50ft. Hes now a 963 rated player and had been playing at that level all year. Those guys have no since moved up to being Open players. The fact of the matter is that they say they are letting them move down to give them more EQUALLY skilled competition but in all reality they are moving out of a division where they have over 500 players that are either 1 shot better or 1 shot worse then them and are moving into a division with about 60 people within 1 stroke better and one stroke worse. Its just a horrible decision and its going to cost pros like you and the rest of the good pros money.

Just my 2 cents

And don't forget that the ratings are skewed between pro and ams, in my estimation by about 20 ratings points. What I am saying is that, right now, a 940 rated Am should whoop up on a 940 rated pro. (Well, "whoop up" to the tune of about 2 strokes per round.) It has to do with the pros playing, in general, more stable golf where the majority of them shoot closer to their skill level more often. The am ratings are skewed down by the new players who are rapidly improving and playing better than their ratings.

As the sub-955 pros play more in the am ranks, their ratings should go down some.

In the last three tournaments I have played in, not a single intermediate player has beaten my score on the same course. And I am usually in the bottom "cashing" spots of advanced or just past the cut off. So this Sub-915 player is justified in playing advanced. And BTW the 915 cutoff is the requirement for people too play advanced, if your rating is above that you must play advanced. You will never hear me complaining about someone with a better rating beating me. Because this game is called golf, it is individual and no one else effects my score, if I play my best and get beaten then so be it.

So my 853 rated a** is staying in advanced. And too bad I cannot play Mid Nationals. It would be fun to play against people of my "caliber", well maybe not for them.

ratings guide 2005 (http://www.pdga.com/documents/05DivisionsGuide.pdf) in this guide if you read what the PDGA defines as an Adv Am I think you will find that most Adv players with lower ratings are still Adv players. Maybe they need to redefine what they classify an Adv Am. I mean this rule really makes the lower Adv players feel like playing lower as they are allow and you say should. But what does this do to the up and coming players that are Legit Int. and Rec players. Just seems like a step backwards to me.

In MN, about a half or more of our Ams have ratings in the Rec zone. However, we rarely have had a Rec division because enough players play up that beginners and stable rating Rec players have no choice but to play up since their division isn't offered. If some of our pros 'chase' some Intermediates from Advanced back to Intermediate, maybe enough Recs will ask for their home division. Then, we won't discourage so many new players who have to play Intermediate their first time out and can start in Rec.

If thats the case then right on. But you guys define what is an Adv Am. In the guide by definition I am an Adv Am. The other thing about playin Int is they play the easiest layout of any course. (may not be the case in all tournaments but in most I played in this is the case) now playing the easiest layout of a course is cake for a player of my calaber. I get into trouble with longer and tighter fairways. I compare my scores with Int that play the same layout at all my tournaments and 9 times out of 10 I am well ahead of them.

Does anyone have a reply for the Posts that i made??? I want to hear a replay on the posts that i made. Or doesnt anyone have one???

It will be interesting to see what happens at the Mid-Nationals. If the ratings truly are time delayed as some feel (being improved this year), there will be others like Parkntwoputt who feel their ratings are lagging behind where they think their skill level is currently. Might be a rude awakening for some. I recalculated Park's rating under the revised process and it 'jumps' from 853 to 868, still solidly in the Rec zone and Red division.

Why wouldn't the PDGA just go to all ratings based events?
That would take care of the Ams and the Pros no?

What is my rating with the new system??? Also why wont anyone comment on the points that i brought up???

Anyone who plays Advanced with a rating UNDER 915 should take their freaking lumps and shut the hell up.


Hey Rhett, does that include Advanced Masters? My PR dropped to 899 after Am Worlds. I guess I could hit a PDGA event and "legally" play intermediate, right? I think I'm a better player than 899, but that's based solely on my PDGA event performances, NOT the dozen or so "unsanctioned" tournaments I've played. And I STILL can't win the Southern National Championships! :D

That would not fix the problem either. The best solution to this was the Pro 2 division where ams could play for plastic and Pros could play for cash in the same division. This would be a division filled with 955-975 or 985 rated players. In my opinion 80% of the advanced division is rated between 915-945 10% are lower then 915 and 10% are higher then 945 but the MAJORITY is inbetween the 2.

Im still wainting for people to counter the points that i brought up. Will someone do that??? Or is there no counter for the points that i made???

This is funny. Has everyone forgotten the REAL solution? Namely, trash "Pro", "Advance", "Intermediate". Just come out in 2005, oops, 2006, and say

We have a whole new competitive structure. The old structure is gone. Your old classification is now meaningless.

Here is the new structure: Division I is for everyone over 950. This division plays for cash. Division II is for everyone between 915 and 949. This division plays for prizes. Division III is for everyone beteen 850 and 914. This division plays for prizes.

Why hasn't this been implemented? My guesses are that it's too simple and it apparently would be JUST TOO MUCH CHANGE (aaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) for all the tournament dooods to grasp.

The smart ones of you in the crowd will realize that this already HAS been implemented, just in a way to create more controversy instead of less. Not that Millz and MTL are worth placating anyway of course.

best solution is for you to shut the [*****] up and play

Why hasn't this been implemented?



(Pssst, look at the Mid-Nationals divisions: http://www.midnationals.com/register.html )

Sorry for being so abrasive about it, but when a sub-915 rated player is complaining about what goes on in the Advanced division, well, it bugs me. :)

You want to know what the real problem with sub-915ers playing Advanced is? Those same players get all ****** off when a 940 player beats them by 10 strokes (3 strokes a round times 3 rounds, plus one good putt) and start calling the 940 player a bagger.

In any event, if you are rated below 900 you should have no guilt about playing Intermediate. If you play and kick some butt, your rating will go up. If a bunch of 850 and below Recs are playing Int, you will probably crush them and they will probably call you a bagger. :)

That's the problem with playing up. If only the hot-shots on the fast-track upswing play up, it's no problem. But when the "norm" is to play above your rating, eventually the 930 rated guys get bagger-called to pro where they end up quitting. Because not everyone can get to 970, and it costs at least twice as much to play pro.

Chuck, did that (reconfigured) rating include my latest tournament, when it was windy, and 40 degrees outside in our hardest setup? Just curious. The results are just posted and missed the mid december update.

We have a whole new competitive structure. The old structure is gone. Your old classification is now meaningless.

Here is the new structure: Division I is for everyone over 950. This division plays for cash. Division II is for everyone between 915 and 949. This division plays for prizes. Division III is for everyone beteen 850 and 914. This division plays for prizes.



Gosh that sounds familiar.

best solution is for you to shut the [*****] up and play



That was uncalled for. If your the ray turner who is a PDGA member your prolly real happy about the new rule cuz your rated under 900 :o

Are you really going to go from playing pro to playin rec???

Chuck, did that (reconfigured) rating include my latest tournament



I'm guessing 'no' since we are just getting ready to process the final 2004 numbers.

I honestly didnt mean to start this whole big fuss about things.

I just really don't like the fact that little amatuerism we had left in this sport is now totally gone.

Well step up!

I don't have to explain myself again.

Unlike the true baggers in advanced, I wasn't winning events 2 years ago - I wasn't even winning 6 months ago

I agree with Rhett. If your going to play up a division you should expect to get slapped around and you dont have the right to say a **** word about it. I played Open at a sanctioned event and got SPANKED and didnt say anything because i knew it was going to happen. I played up for the expierience and a chance to maybe shoot with Scott Martin and Mike Raley. Thats what happens when you move up too soon or when your not ready. I dont care what anyone says about me this year because i will be playing Advanced ALL year and more then likely next year as well. People can call me a bagger all they want but I will not be one of those guys who moves up because EVERYONE ELSE thinks they should or because people think im a bagger. Ill stay am till I think im ready.

I just want to hear someone back this new rule after what i brought to light.

I just really don't like the fact that little amatuerism we had left in this sport is now totally gone.



It was gone long before this. Our amatuerism rides on the (incorrect) use of the word "Amatuer".

Does anyone have a reply for the Posts that i made??? I want to hear a replay on the posts that i made. Or doesnt anyone have one???



Which posts?
The one about Romine playing well?
So... if a legitimate am plays well then he is in the wrong division too?

I thought that the Pro1, Pro2 set up was pretty good too... but you might have seen the sort of trashing those division got here.

You really can't do much of anything without getting a bunch of people ticked off.

MtL, there are a whole bunch of non-competitive players in the pro ranks who did little more than win $20 once, but are now stuck being labelled as "pros". There are also a lot more who used to be good enough to cash spradically, but now can't put the time into the game that they used to.

Should these people be forced to make the following decision: Should I pay $100+ dollars to play in this tournament where I have absolutely no chance to even finish near the cash line, or should I just not play in tournaments because, even though I have the time to play the tourney, I don't have the time to practice all week to get back to my previous skill level?

With ratings that are pretty accurate for the vast majority of players, and in my world they are amazingly accurate, we are in a unique position to allow these non-competitive types to once again play against people of similar skill where they might even get a shot at the leadercard.

I honestly didnt mean to start this whole big fuss about things.

I just really don't like the fact that little amatuerism we had left in this sport is now totally gone.



Of course this whole issue really and truly boils down to one matter. (With all due respect to Chuck and the terrific work he puts in). Player ratings really do not matter, what matters is what your score is compared to your competition on that given day.

The ratings are close if you play alot of sanctioned tournaments. People who judge by ratings would be surprised by how good this 853/868 player golfs in competition. Because the south does not have alot of PDGA events and the less rounds you have rated the more a bad round will skew the rating.

BTW thanks Chuck for the ratings system, it is much better and more accurate then the one Southern Nationals uses.

Yeah but how many times have you been out of the top 4 in your last 10 tournaments?
and how many have you won?

I don't have to explain myself again.

Unlike the true baggers in advanced, I wasn't winning events 2 years ago - I wasn't even winning 6 months ago



true baggers,
please define

Rhett,

I see 100% percent where you are coming from. I really don't want to start naming names, but I know quite a few players that used to be cashing pros and now for one reason or another, they are not in golf shape.

I'm not talking about these people.

I'm talking about the guys who have dominated advanced for a while - stepped up and took the money and now these guys are going back to advanced simply b/c they can.

Check out my stats here (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=21676&year=2004)

I don't have to explain myself again.

Unlike the true baggers in advanced, I wasn't winning events 2 years ago - I wasn't even winning 6 months ago



true baggers,
please define



well when I think of baggers, I think of guys like Chris Lee and Dave Gray who won events and were still playing advanced 2 years afterwards.

I will turn pro less than a year after my first win.

...which is why we need a hard ratings cap on Advanced.

If that number existed, would you still call people baggers for jumping up and down over the Open/Advanced line?

Rhett,

I see 100% percent where you are coming from. I really don't want to start naming names, but I know quite a few players that used to be cashing pros and now for one reason or another, they are not in golf shape.

I'm not talking about these people.

I'm talking about the guys who have dominated advanced for a while - stepped up and took the money and now these guys are going back to advanced simply b/c they can.



Yeah, that'll suck.
but...

They'll have to shoot in the 960-980 range to do well... that will bump up thier rating... they wont be allowed to 'drop down' anymore... problem solved.

-tB

I really don't want to start naming names...


You know my philosophy: NAME NAMES! :)

I don't have to explain myself again.

Unlike the true baggers in advanced, I wasn't winning events 2 years ago - I wasn't even winning 6 months ago



true baggers,
please define




nevermind i found it! (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=21676&year=2004)

I just think that your pro for life regardless of what happens to you.

If you want to compare things to the PGA, look at a guy like David Duvall. He won a freakin major and all of the sudden he can't shoot under 75 anywhere.

If there amatuers on the PGA tour, would anyone expect him to move down. Of course not.

A reply to this post


EQUAL is the key word in this sentence. EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL. 955 rated players that are moving down are not moving to a division with EQUALLY skilled players. They are moving down and shooting 2 strokes better a round then the average or above average advanced player. There are 60 Advanced players in the ENTIRE PDGA that have a rating that is 955 or better. I know for a fact that atleast 20 of them are moving up to Open this year. So these PROs that are moving down have about 40 people MAX that are going to be playing at their skill level. 40 people in the WHOLE FREAKIN COUNTRY. So MAYBE just MAYBE they will run into another one at a tournament when they move down. That in my opinion is a complete CROCK OF *****!!!!!!!!!!!! Now if the rating cut off was dropped to say 935 then there will be about 600 players right around the same skill level as them. THAT would be a fair cut off line.

There are 550 players registerd in the Open division with a rating between 945 and 965 which is a 1 stroke varience from 955 up and down. They have about 500 more competitors at their skill level in OPEN then they will when they move down to Advanced. This it the worst move i have seen by the PDGA in the 1.5 years i have been a member. You are basically saying hey if you dont want to compete against guys at your skill level then move down and beat up on the advanced guys by 2 strokes a round. This is REDICULOUS!!!!!!!! There are only 600 pros that are rated above 955 in the first place. 600 across the ENTIRE country. There are over 800 Open players that have a rating that is below 955 so there is plenty of competition for these players. If you take 600 and divide it by about 45 states that have disc golf in the continental us then thats about 13 Players per state that are rated over 955 and 18 Open players per state that are rated below 955.

This rule change it not only unfair its not even logical. Your backing up the rule saying they are gaining competition by moving down but in all actuallity they are LOSING A TON of equally skilled competitors. Just take a look at the numbers yourself and you will see how this is the worst rule change for the mens Pro and Advanced division in the history of the sport.


They could have made it only a rule that applied to divisions where there is little to no turn out. IE Womens divisions and Grand Masters Divisions. I dont see this as being a good rules change. I say bring back Pro 2 and let that be a breeding ground for lesser pros untill they can actually move back up and hack it. Dont throw them down with me and the other 930 and below rated guys which make up most of the Advanced Division. Plus if all the 954 and below guys move down to my division you are taking away the lively hood of our Tour Pros which in turn will have them playing less and getting real jobs because now they cant make enough money to stay on tour. Then you will not grow the Touring end of the sport which is what we want to do. The casual and Rec end of the sport will ALWAYS be there but if you cant make any money being a pro then why go on tour at all???

Thats just my 2 cents

I will turn pro less than a year after my first win.


Does that mean you are turning pro after Worlds, since you had a 1st place finish last September?

The guys I was thinking about and I know they will not be offended b/c they are more friends.

Soctty Faison
Mark Southard

I will turn pro less than a year after my first win.


Does that mean you are turning pro after Worlds, since you had a 1st place finish last September?



I'm going to pro worlds and not am worlds.

Am World Doubles in April will be my last am. event.

My offical pro debut will be the Dogwood Crosstown NT

My offical pro debut will be the Dogwood Crosstown NT


Cool. Grab some cash! :) Will be tough at an NT, but I wish you well. A gigantic noggin' should count for something.

I just think that your pro for life regardless of what happens to you.

If you want to compare things to the PGA, look at a guy like David Duvall. He won a freakin major and all of the sudden he can't shoot under 75 anywhere.

If there amatuers on the PGA tour, would anyone expect him to move down. Of course not.




I don't. There's a little more money involved in the PGA and there are better rules on who qualifies as a Pro. Right now, anyone with $55 can be a PDGA Pro.

Let me type this slower for you...
You are already a pro. I'm already a pro. That 850 Rec player is already a pro. We just get coins that can't be spent at the mall and pay less for our membership than our Pros.

Using ball golf structure is a poor analogy for what we're discussing. It's more like our lower pros being in the Canadian Football League and the Advanced being in the European Football League. No one playing in either of those leagues should be getting upset if players from one league switch to the other or vice versa. Some players earn Canadian dollars and the others earn Euros.

You simply lack the perspective that comes with playing the game for longer than two years, grasshopper.

Who won the Advanced Michigan State Championship in 2001 and where is he now? Well, we made him go pro under our local bump rules, he snagged some also-ran fifth place cash, never really got any better, and pretty much gave up on the game at the tournament level. He plays about two or three tournaments a year. Good player, nice guy, but we kind of kicked him out by moving him up.

There are about twenty players like that in Michigan who keep renewing. Probably quite a few more who don't renew.

Even though there is a strong element of customer service in this format, it is not about making a rule that is player friendly for a small slice of our membership. It is about defining PDGA divisions by rating and allowing similarly skilled players to play against similarly skilled players. If your argument is that all the similarly skilled 940-955 rated players have left advanced, well give them a year. A lot of them will be back. And I think that is better than, "Give them a year. Then you will never see them again."

At 930 and improving you can hang with any 950 and not holding on pro. If you look at the tournaments where I played Silver and Pro 2 last year, at every one of them I beat at least one 950 pro but lost to a 950 am. 950 am is better than 950 pro. It is like the pros get rated in Canadian!

This is what it is for Millz: he finally gets to a place locally in Advanced where he is at the top of the pile, because the top of the pile has moved up to open. Now we're letting the bottom of the pro pile move down and give Millz a run for the plastic. There is no principle in Millz' position, but a lot of principal.

My offical pro debut will be the Dogwood Crosstown NT


Cool. Grab some cash! :) Will be tough at an NT, but I wish you well. A gigantic noggin' should count for something.



LOL!!

Well its at my home courses - one of which is 2 miles from my house and I have been playin it since I was 9.

While I don't expect to cash - if I do, I will accept regardless of the ammount.

Only sports/occupations that make it more profitable to move down the ladder have this problem. Put some sanity into our system and this whole issue is moot.

Yeeeeeahhh Tizzle....the sooner you move up, the better you'll progress...at least thats what I'm hoping.

Yeeeeeahhh Tizzle....the sooner you move up, the better you'll progress...at least thats what I'm hoping.



word

good to see you on here dubbs!

I don't have to explain myself again.

Unlike the true baggers in advanced, I wasn't winning events 2 years ago - I wasn't even winning 6 months ago




Ive NEVER won and i have a 935 rating and people call ME a bagger in Advanced :mad:

the people that call me a bagger are the ones that are not going to win regardless of what division I play.

The guys I compete with every weekend don't say crap to me.

This whole idea is bassackwards. Allowing 955 to move down is a mistake. Should have gone the other way and made everyone 940+ move up. This whole "miniaturizing" of divisions is just awful. We should have individual divisions - so nobody would ever have to suffer the indignity of getting something other than 1st place.

Only sports/occupations that make it more profitable to move down the ladder have this problem. Put some sanity into our system and this whole issue is moot.



I agree, although you're stretching this into another thread, which leads where Nick likes to take these discussions. :)

Not really. In Nick's system, there is an Am class and a Pro class, but the pro clas has a bunch of divisions similar to what we have now. In other words, even with a true am class, this issue must be addressed. It still baffles me that we have designed a system that financially punishes players for improving their skills.

Does anyone have a reply for the Posts that i made??? I want to hear a replay on the posts that i made. Or doesnt anyone have one???

When you say something worth replying to, we'll reply ... bagger. :p

If your argument is that all the similarly skilled 940-955 rated players have left advanced, well give them a year. A lot of them will be back. And I think that is better than, "Give them a year. Then you will never see them again."



I dont think it is. Its their fault. Tough luck. They shouldnt have moved up in the first place. Not my problem. Thats why all these guys shouldnt just be makin the JUMP to pro so soon. Sorry about your luck. If you decide to be a pro then your a pro for life whether you can hack it or not. It doesnt matter. If i decide to go pro and cant hack it im not going to quit playing. I will continue to play at the pro level because i love the game. All this lets make disc golf cheaper and less exspensive is all rediculous also but thats a whole other thread.

Any system that rewards "amateur" players with prizes of monetary value penalizes players for improving. At least improving enough to cross over the the bottom of the "Pro" ranks. With divisions, there are always those that are at the bottom of one division, or the top of the one below.

I just really don't like the fact that little amatuerism we had left in this sport is now totally gone.

Hey MTL, here's a tip for you: amateurism disappeared from the tournament side of disc golf before you were born. If you think that competing for hundreds of dollars worth of merch rather than hundreds of dollars in cash makes you an amateur, you're delusional.

I dont think so at all

I dont think it is. Its their fault. Tough luck. They shouldnt have moved up in the first place. Not my problem. Thats why all these guys shouldnt just be makin the JUMP to pro so soon. Sorry about your luck. If you decide to be a pro then your a pro for life whether you can hack it or not. It doesnt matter. If i decide to go pro and cant hack it im not going to quit playing. I will continue to play at the pro level because i love the game. All this lets make disc golf cheaper and less exspensive is all rediculous also but thats a whole other thread.



Did you read what Bruce posted? The guy he used in the example HAD TO MOVE UP. It wasn't his choice.

DG Pimp, the PDGA has basically done what you are advocating: not letting people move down from pro coupled with higher and higher entry fees. Since you seem to be in favor of both of these strategies, do you view these strategies as successful and how are you measuring the success?

If you want a system that just says, "Tough luck. You're scrood, dewd," try the state corrections system. I don't think the PDGA needs to say, "[*****] you. Get lost," to every player who ever decided to play pro and cashed once and does not belong in the pro ranks.

About 10 or 12 years ago a bunch of really good players in my league all went pro. Really good is relative of course. I was about 825 rated and they were about 900 rated, but who knew? There were no ratings then. Most of them cashed and became non-players until they got old enough to play Masters or the MDGO experimented with Pro 2.

So this is where we disagree and I doubt there is any coming to agreement on this. You want a colder, meaner PDGA. The board of directors wants a PDGA that will bring players back to tournaments, that encourages similarly rated players to compete against each other, and provides the option to do so for members who have a certain demonstrated ability.

The difference between us is: I got appointed to an office so that MTL could call me a dummy, whereas you get to be called a dummy without any real accomplishment to prove that you really are one. :D

...and who says the Board is humorless... :)

I just think that your pro for life regardless of what happens to you.

If you want to compare things to the PGA, look at a guy like David Duvall. He won a freakin major and all of the sudden he can't shoot under 75 anywhere.

If there amatuers on the PGA tour, would anyone expect him to move down. Of course not.

You're talking out of your hat, MTL. The reason David Duvall does not move down has everything to do with financial security and social status and next-to-nothing at all to do with his current inability to compete on the PGA Tour.

The USGA can and does allow pros to regain their amateur status. (http://www.usga.org/playing/amateur_status/reinstatement/reinstatement_request.html) The fact is, Duvall continues to make a pretty penny off of his reputation, which puts him in violation of the USGA's rules concerning amateur status. If Duvall were to surrender his PGA Tour Card and PGA membership, give up all his sponsorships and appearance fees (including those deriving from his reputation), instructor positions, [/i]etc.[/i] AND apply for reinstatement of his amateur status, the USGA would be perfectly within its authority to restore his amateur status after a suitable probationary period.

In Terry Calhoun's 1/16/05 "PDGA Member News" email announcing this change he writes:


One of the primary aims of allowing some Pros to play Am is the recognition that quite a few of our more mature members who are Pros are really no longer competitive in most Open divisions. So tell all the older guys you know who've stopped competing that they can come over to Am and join me beating the young guys up! :)



Sounds like the 2 sides of the argument here come from the perspective of the older/mature members versus the younger (less mature?) members. Two different perspectives and two different sets of motivations for competing as weekend warriors.

As a middlin' player (38 is not young or old, 949 is not high or low) I think that the cut-off line should have been 10-20 points lower. It is fine in the DG meccas (CA, NC, MI etc.), but should be lower for the sake of most of the rest of the world, IMO.

But I trust the PDGA has a better perspective with more data at their disposal and is in touch with a wider demographic than I am, so I am fine with it.

My guess is that for Pro's with a 950-ish rating, their pride would keep them from playing down if they wanted to still compete. For a 925 rated Pro, I would guess that they have a grasp on reality and their pride would be easier to swallow. So, if I were a betting man, I would bet that the majority of the Pro's taking advantage of this new rule will be Pro's in the low 900 range.

That all sounds good, but I'm betting that the bigger the tourney, the easier the "pride" will be to swallow. I think it takes about 1000 rated golf to cash in an NT event these days, doesn't it? I'd imaging every local pro with a 954 rating and below will jump to am for those. With the exception being the young guns who are new and still want to test themselves against the top touring guys.

Here's an idea:
Everybody shut the f#&ck up and go play disc golf
Play your best game,
if you do that what else can you ask for.
If you don't, don't expect to win.
Forgive my simplicity, but in the end thats about all there is to competing, in any sport.

The tier level does make a difference and when we first unveiled the ratings divisions in 2000, we had shifting break points based on tier. It was deemed too complicated at the time, partly since ratings were also new. But it helps resolve some of the regional problems mentioned and the soft cap issue on another thread. The other benefit of having different break lines for different tiers is that no one is 'stuck' on one side of the line or the other since there are more than one line. The current 955 line is a compromise for simplicity but several of the critiques on this thread would be resolved somewhat by using shifting breaks in a future revision.

Did you read what Bruce posted? The guy he used in the example HAD TO MOVE UP. It wasn't his choice.



Did the PDGA MAKE him move up or did his peers MAKE him move up because to my knowledge you cant force anyone to do something they dont want to do, especially when it involves becoming a sports proffesional.

The 965 and below players in the Open Division make up more of the Open population then the 965+ rated pros do. So your saying your going to take more then HALF of the Open players away and let them play amature. Then the select few TOURING PLAYERS that we do have will not be able to make enough money to stay on tour. You might as well just cancel the National Tour because if you cut our half the field there wont be enough money for the pros to stay on tour all year. If the PDGA wants to promote people playing in tournaments then they need to start a ADGA ( amature disc golf assosiation ). I hate to say it but this organization that calls themselves the Proffesional disc golf association isnt doing a very good job dealing with the PROs in our sport. Everything they seem to be doing is hurting the Open divisions by letting half of the competition just run and hide in a lower division when they made the decision to move up KNOWING that they would no longer be able to compete in the amature divisions. I say let the 935 and lower players move down because they will actually be moving sideways into a division with a healthy amount of competition for them. These 940-955 rated players are actually just moving from the bottom to the top of another division and are huring the touring pros and players that make a living off of playing tournaments. Last year there were about 1500 Open player registered to play and have ratings. Thats an average of 31.25 per state if A little over 500 of them have ratings above 955. All the others have ratings below that. So your saying its a good thing for the sport that 1000 players get out of the Open division and move down to the Advanced division. That doesnt make much scence to me at all. All this is going to do is upset ams like me and upset the good pros because your taking away from the money that they can make. As i said before Pro 2 would solve all of this problem. Give the high rated ams and the low rated pros a place to play together for cash OR prizes. Dont throw them down in my division because that will just make me stay here longer and longer. Im not going to leave my division untill I get some wins under my belt and untill I think im ready to move up to pro. All this is going to do is increase sandbagging and force ams to stay ams for longer then they already are becase now your almost HAVE to be a super pro to play in the Open division.

IMO this is horrible and i think the PDGA will realize that once the season gets into full swing and everyone starts complaining.

Im starting to get a little sick of a select few members of the PDGA making ALL the decisions. Do members have ANY say in ANYTHING other then who we elect to make these horrible decisions???

Before you or I played PDGA events, Mills, bump rules were legal and supported by the PDGA. Remember this game is older than your ability to throw 550'.


Are you volunteering to be on the board? It's apparent your perspective is being totally ignored by the current BOD.

IMO this is horrible and i think the PDGA will realize that once the season gets into full swing and everyone starts complaining.


So far I only see two people complaining.

That all sounds good, but I'm betting that the bigger the tourney, the easier the "pride" will be to swallow. I think it takes about 1000 rated golf to cash in an NT event these days, doesn't it? I'd imaging every local pro with a 954 rating and below will jump to am for those. With the exception being the young guns who are new and still want to test themselves against the top touring guys.



If your going to let these guys move down but tell them they cant play in Majors then you might as well tell them they cant play in A Tiers or SuperTours either. If that were the case then it would be a tiny bit better then what it is now. I still think they should have just left it the way it was. Congrats PDGA board and rule makers you just created about 250 more SANDBAGGERS when all the PDGA can talk about it trying to eliminate SANDBAGGING. I think that letting 955 rated pros move down to the AM division is a GREAT way to eliminate SANDBAGGING. All i every hear about if you want to promote people to move up and not to just stay in one division forever but not your going to send 250 955-945 rated players back down to the Advanced division and 650 other players into the the other amature divisions. I mean now the 900- 924 rates players that play advanced are just going to sit back and mop up the Am2 division and the guys at the bottom of that division are just going to pop back and clean up the rec division. So in all actuallily you are rewarding the people who made a HORRIBLE DECISION ( did i mention they made it on their own ) by turning pro too early and hurting everyone else including the Touring Pros.

Sounds like you guys have it all figured out. I cant wait to see what the PDGA comes up with next.

Ok you guys want to know why I really feel this way - b/c I think it is rediculous that someone can accept money and go back down and play am again. Once someone accepts the cash they are basically saying that I am ready to play pro for the rest of my life.

I am going to call this now and I can't wait till it happens and when it does, someone come back and look at this.

Some adv guy will play pro in a local thingy with a 930ish rating. They will accept money b/c they can stay am b/c of this stupid rule. Then they will hit 955 and they are pros for good and then they will start complaining.

People are already saying to me "you're rating is not going to go up 10 points to 955, play pro and you can still play am here and there"

Well, I'm not an idiot. And I got news for the advanced golfers of NC. You got 9 more tournaments with me. Good Luck.

As you point out, almost 50% of the PDGA is between 900-960 rating versus 5% over 960. The ratio is really about 9 to 1. So if the current plan favors keeping under 955 rated players involved in competition and PDGA members, versus forcing them to pay high fees in Open with lower chances to cash, how do you think a vote will turn out if members were asked? Even superpros like tB see the benefit.

Interestingly enough, if a big event has lots of added cash, the top prize will be larger with a smaller field than a larger field. So keeping more donators in Open does not always help Barry and the boys. Getting more added cash has been and will continue to be the way to support the super pros, not bleeding the donators.

Did the PDGA MAKE him move up or did his peers MAKE him move up because to my knowledge you cant force anyone to do something they dont want to do, especially when it involves becoming a sports proffesional.


Your knowledge is limited.

It is indeed fact that local series' were allowed to bump players up divisions against their will, and the PDGA allowed it. Some TDs would even go so far as to submit a pro PDGA membership form with payment to the PDGA for those ams who won their tourneys. And the PDGA would accept those forms and, voila, another "pro" player was born.

There was this grand mis-perception that the ams were full of sandbaggers with no self-respect, and that those players needed to be pushed to Pro. Fortunately the ratings project has shown that quite the opposite is true: far more people play up where they really have no chance of getting on the lead card or even merching.

Im saying there needs to be a Semi Pro division. If the idea is for these people to be able to play against people of the same skill level then make a division between Advanced and Open. Say for players rated 955 and above which have previously accepted cash and for anyone else who wants to play for cash but doesnt want to step in and throw with the big guns. I mean you guys are looking at 900 pros with a rating of 945 or less that could potentialy just drop down into the amature divisions. I understand that the guys with 930 and below ratings cant even come close to competing but you KNOW that the 955 rated guys can cash at everything but maybe a NT SupetTour event. The fact that now when i go to play a A Tier or a SuperTour the guys that always play pro and accept in B and C Tiers are now playing in my division because they cant hack it up in the open division. They should have thought about that before they made the jump to Open. Or maybe you should let the ones that a below 955 that got forced to bump up come back down and the ones that decided to move up should have to STAY up.

It sounds like the pimp is afraid he won't be on the leadercard every round.

Wouldn't it be nice to know that you earned that advanced win by beating up on advanced-rated players instead of whoopin' up on a bunch of Intermediates who were in over their heads?

As it has been said on here before. If they would move up and stay up, there would be no problem, however many players move up, then leave.

These were top level Ams that played quite a bit , got pressured to move up, and then found out the being the big fish in a small pond didn't amount to much in the ocean.

I have always belived your rating (if you play more than 8 events a year) is a much better indicator of your skill level than you self picked division, and the players that are playing above their ratings are the problem. If they would play where their rating puts them, then they would face fair competition.

in my very humble opinion, people worried about 954 and below pros playing in their division should be happy their division is becoming more competitive. I played in 1 event (an r-tier) last year that used the format and it produced a tournament with a lot of evenly-matched players -- I view it as a chance to play in a more competitive environment and up my game.

Im starting to get a little sick of a select few members of the PDGA making ALL the decisions. Do members have ANY say in ANYTHING other then who we elect to make these horrible decisions???



What do you think Board elections are for? The membership elects the Board TO MAKE THE DECISIONS! Read the PDGA Constitution. (Article 4, Section 1: "...This Board shall be the governing body of the PDGA,...in which the government and management of the association is vested,...")

That's what representative government is all about, or did you miss that lesson in Civics class?

Tell ya what, Mills....since you are going to be in Phoenix, I personally invite you to sit in on some of the Board of Directors meetings and express your noble opinions to the "select few members of the PDGA" that make "ALL the decisions." That is if you can drag yourself away from the poker games and the bar long enough to attend.

Im not afraid of not being on the lead card every tournaments becauase as you can see i played about a handful of Am2 tournaments in my whole career and i started playing Advanced with a 866 rating. So that doesnt really have and evidence to back it up. If that were the case i would have played AM2 in EVERY tournament i could untill my rating got over 925. So thats not the reason behind my anger. I just feel like the guys who MADE the decision to move up should not be able to just drop back down because they made a bad choice. They should have to apply to get there status back and take a significant amount of time off before it is given back to them. Now that I know some of these players were FORCED to play Open i feel bad for them and believe that anyone in that situation who wants to should be able to make the choice whether they want to stay pro or come back down to the amature ranks. Once they make the decision though it should be final just like everyone who has made the decision since the rules change. There are special instances where injuries occur and that sort of thing but those fall under the applying for your amature status back.

Sorry to those of you who were forced up to the Open division but to those of you who CHOOSE to move up there and now you cant hack it. Sorry about your luck you should have put more thought into turning pro. Most of these guys cashed for prolly not even there entry fee back and took that money and became pros. The dumbest thing you can do is move up when other think your ready but you yourself know that you are not. Yeah im sure it sucks to just get smoked day in and day out but if you want to get better then practice. I dont want to hear any excuses about having jobs or anything either. If you decide to have a job and a family then that was your choice. If tournament disc golf doesnt fit into your life anymore then maybe you shouldnt be playing in the first place. If you dont have the money to pay the Open entry fees then maybe you shouldnt have turned pro in the first place. These are all things that you have to take into consideration when you accept your first cash. Now accepting first cash doesnt mean JACK ***** because the next day you can just play AM again. What a load of CRAP that is. I will play some Open events this year locally and i will prolly cash at some of them but i wont take any of the cash because i believe it is wrong to do so. Plus i want a shot at the 06 Am Worlds.

I still think im going to play and place just as well as before this rule came about i just think its a crock to turn what was a tough decision before into a freakin joke now.

I like it when PDGA BOD members spout off. :D

These were top level Ams that played quite a bit , got pressured to move up, and then found out the being the big fish in a small pond didn't amount to much in the ocean.



They got PRESSURED to move up. They didnt HAVE to. In the end it all comes down to THEM making the decision to move up. If you dont have enough character to make your own decisions when it comes to something like this then I feel sorry for you but i still dont feel bad that you are getting smoked in a division that you choose to play in, knowing you wouldnt be able to come back down. You shouldnt have moved up in the first place.

first of all the guy who won the ccc is deffintleynot a pro he is in the top 25% in the state of florida ADVANCED division, i think that the rule should apply to struggling pros (not cashed in 6- 12 months) just my 2 cents

Tell ya what, Mills....since you are going to be in Phoenix, I personally invite you to sit in on some of the Board of Directors meetings and express your noble opinions to the "select few members of the PDGA" that make "ALL the decisions." That is if you can drag yourself away from the poker games and the bar long enough to attend.



When and where will these meetings be held. I would love to come sit in on one of these meetings even if it was to only sit and listen. I would however like to express some of my ideas and feelings about how things are being done.

I also understand that we elect these people to the BOD. I understand that they are going to be making the decisions but once they are on the board they can do WHATEVER they want to do. They can push their own agenda and now what the people of the PDGA want. I think that when the board comes up with a new rule they should post a voting booth on the PDGA site that you can only get onto with a password that is givin to you in your renewal and membership packets and then the members of the PDGA should be able to vote on if they want the new rule in place or if they want the old rule to be used. That would be the best situation because then guys like me cant say what im saying. If the PDGA members vote and the vote goes one way then the majority has spoken and thats the end of it.

Just my 2 cents.

Jon and Bruce, remind the BOD members to bring their powdered wigs so you'll look extra wise. Mills also might have the chance to bend Chappy, Pete and my ears if he makes it into our group(s). Pete and I are currently the only two Pros interloping in the Advanced field of 50 players and we average age 57 and 934 rating (same as Mills)

Chuck do you by any chance know what my rating would be with the new system and when does this system go into affect. For the Feb update or not untill later in the year???

You've got too many rounds to do the calculation. Parkntwoputt just had nine rounds. The mid-May update will be the first to use the new accelerated process but the details are still being tested. Most players won't see a difference unless their rated rounds have been improving quickly. The mid-Feb update is the 2004 final rating using the current process.

And I got news for the advanced golfers of NC. You got 9 more tournaments with me. Good Luck.


:cool:

OK...since MTL brought my name up and I always find this topic interesting, I am commenting. Yes I can play advanced again because my rating has fallen below 955 (947 down from 974). I am one of those who has had "real life" interupt the daily disc life. Would I play competetive in an AM tourney now? My answer is NO and NO again. The reason being is because I took cash and stepped up and called myself a pro. Would I play in an AM event for fun? Yes, if i did not take a spot away from a real am in the event and also I would not take any prizes, trophies or players pack. Why? Because I made a choice to be a pro player. Did it bother me when "baggers" played in my division and took my cash? No it did not. I played AM when C Lee played and I never once thought it ws unfair. He was a great Adv player and to play with him and beat him made me feel like I had stepped my game up. No matter what happens, there is going to be someone winning that a group of people think should not be playing in that division. Don't make it so the adv division gets so watered down and don't have it packed with golfers who are looking for an excuse not to make a decision about going pro. If you cashed this year in pro and then play an am event and took prizes there, you have no guts to make a decision.

One thing I would like to add is maybe with the 955 am/pro optional division rule is make an additional rule that states you can not compete for prizes in an am event if you have won cash in a pro division in the last 12 months. The new 955 rule is not a bad rule, it just needs some more boundaries and specifics about it. An listen to Todd Branch, it looks as if he has the right ideas.

Atleast someone here aggrees with me.

What Scott just said is what its all about. Honor and respect and having to make a decision and live with the consequences of that decision.

My preference would be to play in Advanced at the reduced entry fee 'tropy only' option, but that's only available to Ams for some reason. That way, I'd be purely in it for the competition and not take away the 'professional' winnings, uh, I mean prize winnings from an Advanced player.

The meetings are Tuesday and Wednesday 8:00 am to 5:00 pm, and Thursday 8:00 to noon. Location to be announced, but close to the course.


If the PDGA members vote and the vote goes one way then the majority has spoken and thats the end of it.



HA HA HA HA HA...you can't be serious!!!! The end of it? HA HA HA HA HA

Well, I'm not an idiot.


please provide evidence supporting your theory.


And I got news for the advanced golfers of NC. You got 9 more tournaments with me. Good Luck.



and I got news for you pro golfers. Only 9 more tournaments with some peace n' quiet.

My preference would be to play in Advanced at the reduced entry fee 'tropy only' option, but that's only available to Ams for some reason. That way, I'd be purely in it for the competition and not take away the 'professional' winnings, uh, I mean prize winnings from an Advanced player.



I think there should be no "trophy only option," it should be a trophy only mandate for anyone playing in an amateur division.

Well, I'm not an idiot.


please provide evidence supporting your theory.


And I got news for the advanced golfers of NC. You got 9 more tournaments with me. Good Luck.



and I got news for you pro golfers. Only 9 more tournaments with some peace n' quiet.



HAHA! This is the funniest thing I have read all day!

This is all a conspiracy between MTL and discpump to boost their post counts.

Post whores!

I think there should be no "trophy only option," it should be a trophy only mandate for anyone playing in an amateur division.



Funny how former am players want this format only after they have gone pro...and what do you tell the ams then about their entry fee? Thanks for the hundreds of dollars you paid and here are three trophies worth $50. The pro purse thanks you for your support. Not a good option, so why not keep the sport growing and keep awarding the ams with merchandise.

you caught me

Scotty we'll take you back into the am ranks only if you agree to play by reindeer rules.

Overall I agree with Scotty and Pimp. If you "move up", you should stay up, whatever division you play in. I made the choice to "turn pro" last year although I knew I would be donating at several tournaments. My goals were to cash a few times and play with better golfers and get better. Lo and behold...with some hard work practicing and improving my putting game...my goals were achieved overall. It was frustratingly hard to go from a top 5 contender in MA1 (or should have been top 5 contender) to fighting for top of the last card at times. I moved up when my rating was 938. However, after 9 pro tourneys, my rating is 960 and I did improve. Moving up was the motivation to practice more and I made it happen. However, if I missed 10 more putts last year I would probably have a rating below 955 and "could" play MA1 again. I personally would not do that even though I would probably make more money selling my plastic winnings than money from cashing in pros when compared to the entry fees ($150 to get my behind kicked at the Memorial...but should be fun). Even though I was playing poorly at times last year, I would have �plastic cashed� in advanced in all the tournaments I played but I was learning from people better than me. I played top card a few rounds and deserving to be there was worth it just to see them throw and learn from them. I moved up and plan to get better and that�s what people who want to play competitively and have not yet reached their potential should do.

However, if for whatever reason someone decides they have peaked or do not want to put in the time needed to stay competitive at this high level, how can they still play tournaments and enjoy competing if they have a 940 rating and getting trounced all the time? I believe this is the goal of the Pro-playing-Am rule. To bring back players who are past their competitive peak due to age, injury, time (some things like family and real jobs do take time away from some disc golfers) they now allowed to play Amateur. I say let them but set up some guidelines. Players should not be allowed to bounce back-and-forth depending on the field at a tournament. They should have to declare their upcoming status for the year. They should be playing for status and trophies only if they have already cashed as pros. The goal seems to be to allow all players the chance to compete against golfers of similar abilities. That�s great and I applaud that but if you cashed as a pro, you should not be able to �plastic cash� again as an amateur player.

This of course brings up the whole issue of the very generous payouts to Ams. I do think if you play well and compete in the higher levels of your division, you should get a reward. BUT�it should not be several hundred dollars worth of merchandise. I think if Am-payouts were less and Ams were playing tourneys purely for the chance to have fun, compete against others and overall bragging rights, this whole thing would not be an issue. If an Advanced player wasn�t worried about losing $50+ worth of discs/baskets/etc because they finished behind a former Pro, they wouldn�t care as much. However, since the �payouts� are so huge (especially in MA1) there is something to lose so there is a threat if former pros �move down�.

Overall, I think the PDGA BOD is working hard through some very tough issues that affect our great sport and they are doing a fine job. All change will be challenged so I think as long as they communicate with PDGA members (And we constructively communicate back) we are headed in the right direction. This whole division and ratings thing is a process and there have been and will be stumbling blocks along the way. Either way�I plan to just go out, play golf, throw my tournament (with large Am-payouts because that�s what PDGA says to do right now) and have a ton of fun with some great people.

Max Maclay

If an Advanced player wasn�t worried about losing $50+ worth of discs/baskets/etc because they finished behind a former Pro, they wouldn�t care as much. However, since the �payouts� are so huge (especially in MA1) there is something to lose so there is a threat if former pros �move down�.

Exactly.


They should be playing for status and trophies only if they have already cashed as pros. The goal seems to be to allow all players the chance to compete against golfers of similar abilities. That�s great and I applaud that but if you cashed as a pro, you should not be able to �plastic cash� again as an amateur player.

I don't see how this rectifies the problem "career donators" (non-competitive "pros") dropping out of sanctioned tournament play. On a practical level, all it does is shuffle their entry fees from the Open division to the Adv. division. Call me cynical, but I doubt that the reason the majority of "career donators" are dropping out is because they're not "competitive"; I suspect that the reason they're dropping out is because they have little to no chance of cashing. Even granting that Adv. entry fees are generally lower than those in Open, for some reason, I find it hard to believe that "career donators" in Open will be motivated to donate to the Adv. pool so that "plastic pros" can receive even higher payouts than they're receiving now.

Scotty we'll take you back into the am ranks only if you agree to play by reindeer rules.



If you sponsor me by supplying me with a heavy Zephyr for those long crush holes (since we all know I have a light weight one for touch shots), I would actually play in a tourney as AM under the name HazMat, just lets make it a 2 rounder tourney because I am thinking the group would kill me after 2 days of Zephyr Fest :)

And I am still waiting for a Reindeer event because I really believe it is possible to shot a round that is rated sub 700...

And I am still waiting for a Reindeer event because I really believe it is possible to shot a round that is rated sub 700...



totally off subject.....

Jason Turners round of 126 (where he could not play in the morning round, but was able to make it out that afternoon) at the ECU Open was initally rated -36

Sweet..I have a goal now..I think I can beat that at Horizons..or any other reindeer suited course...unless Ed Williams turbo putts me out of contention.

Here Here Montrose....well said!! I am a firm Intermedeate player, and I just go out and have fun....and I am THRILLED that I get a chance at plastic.

I just go out and have fun...Im not sure that some posting on this thread remember that :confused:?

These are tough decisions to be made by the BOD....but, I have faith that they will eventually come up with the best answers possible. In the mean time......

SHUT UP AND PLAY!! :D:D:D

so you are staying am for 2 years or more
m_tizzle is playing am for 9 more tournaments


and there is nothing wrong with that

like i said b4


best solution is for you to shut the [*****] up and play

I think there should be no "trophy only option," it should be a trophy only mandate for anyone playing in an amateur division.



Funny how former am players want this format only after they have gone pro...and what do you tell the ams then about their entry fee? Thanks for the hundreds of dollars you paid and here are three trophies worth $50. The pro purse thanks you for your support. Not a good option, so why not keep the sport growing and keep awarding the ams with merchandise.

well, im still officially "am", and i agree with this. its not hard to make this a viable option, lower entry fees, give out trophies. but, that would be amateur then...

Guess who won the cross canyon?

A pro.

This is the dumbest thing the PDGA has ever done.



first of all the guy who won the ccc is deffintleynot a pro he is in the top 25% in the state of florida ADVANCED division

great argument

OK...since MTL brought my name up and I always find this topic interesting, I am commenting. Yes I can play advanced again because my rating has fallen below 955 (947 down from 974). I am one of those who has had "real life" interupt the daily disc life. Would I play competetive in an AM tourney now? My answer is NO and NO again. The reason being is because I took cash and stepped up and called myself a pro. Would I play in an AM event for fun? Yes, if i did not take a spot away from a real am in the event and also I would not take any prizes, trophies or players pack. Why? Because I made a choice to be a pro player. Did it bother me when "baggers" played in my division and took my cash? No it did not. I played AM when C Lee played and I never once thought it ws unfair. He was a great Adv player and to play with him and beat him made me feel like I had stepped my game up. No matter what happens, there is going to be someone winning that a group of people think should not be playing in that division. Don't make it so the adv division gets so watered down and don't have it packed with golfers who are looking for an excuse not to make a decision about going pro. If you cashed this year in pro and then play an am event and took prizes there, you have no guts to make a decision.




No guts to make a decision?

I had already bought my plane ticket and sent in my entry. I could get my $ back from the tournament but the plane ticket was non refundable/non transferable. Also the Pro weekend is the same weekend as Buckhorn and Big Stunts Bday.

So lick these "GUTS"!

in the words of the esteemed Regional Director:




What do you think Board elections are for? The membership elects the Board TO MAKE THE DECISIONS! Read the PDGA Constitution. (Article 4, Section 1: "...This Board shall be the governing body of the PDGA,...in which the government and management of the association is vested,...")

That's what representative government is all about, or did you miss that lesson in Civics class?

Tell ya what, Mills....since you are going to be in Phoenix, I personally invite you to sit in on some of the Board of Directors meetings and express your noble opinions to the "select few members of the PDGA" that make "ALL the decisions." That is if you can drag yourself away from the poker games and the bar long enough to attend.



Yeah, that's what I was paying for, now I remember.

Funny how former am players want this format only after they have gone pro...and what do you tell the ams then about their entry fee? Thanks for the hundreds of dollars you paid and here are three trophies worth $50. The pro purse thanks you for your support. Not a good option, so why not keep the sport growing and keep awarding the ams with merchandise.



As an MA1-playing Amatuer (under PDGA designations), I want lower entry fees & trophies for Ams. Give the excess to charities/course projects, not the Pro purse.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the guys that are on this thread telling you have fair and just and wise it is to allow Pros to move down are the same guys that said how fair and just and wise Pro 2 was last year?

The problem with Pro 2 was it ****** off a lot of the mid to higher ranked Pros (let's say those in the 961-985 range), and they complained a lot. So instead, they put a system in place that will **** off the middle range (920-940) advanced players, and higher ranged (890-915) intermediate players that were normally playing up in Advanced.

I guess it's better to **** off the guys that pay less.

As an MA1-playing Amatuer (under PDGA designations), I want lower entry fees & trophies for Ams. Give the excess to charities/course projects, not the Pro purse.

If you happen to be in the neighborhood with time on your hands, that is the plan, more or less, for the 2005 Discontinuum Blast. $10 entry fee for all divisions, trophies, lots of CTPs, no payout. I think that the Discontinuum Club Championships will also be a trophy-only affair.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the guys that are on this thread telling you have fair and just and wise it is to allow Pros to move down are the same guys that said how fair and just and wise Pro 2 was last year?

The problem with Pro 2 was it ****** off a lot of the mid to higher ranked Pros (let's say those in the 961-985 range), and they complained a lot. So instead, they put a system in place that will **** off the middle range (920-940) advanced players, and higher ranged (890-915) intermediate players that were normally playing up in Advanced.

I guess it's better to **** off the guys that pay less.




Yeah you might as well **** off the players who make up the majority of the PDGA. That sounds like a great idea :confused:

The problem with Pro 2 was it ****** off a lot of the mid to higher ranked Pros (let's say those in the 961-985 range), and they complained a lot. So instead, they put a system in place that will **** off the middle range (920-940) advanced players, and higher ranged (890-915) intermediate players that were normally playing up in Advanced.




To be fair to the PDGA, both proposals are aimed at the same crowd and the same problem and they logically follow one another. Pro 2 didn't work, not because higher ranked pros complained, but because not enough people wanted to play. When I saw it offered, maybe 1 or 2 people signed up. Not real exciting.

Now, the lower rated open players have a real division if they so choose. I don't think this is a significant PDGA decision because it ignores the larger problem, but I don't understand the vocal criticism. It will help in increasing the numbers. That's way more important than someone's cushy seat in the advanced division.

How is this pissing them off?

By giving the mid level Advanced players real competition for their sacred mountains of plastic? The entitlement factor, God Bless America.

High level Intermediate players shouldn't be whining if they're playing in the Advanced division. If they are they need to move back to their correct division. Nothing wrong with that, except the inbred old-school attitudes that have mutated into the ratings based divisions.

Once again, the ONLY difference between our Pros and our Ams is the type of coins paid out.

Don't forget the scores.

:p

It all comes down to the fact that most of these people that would be moving down made the CHOICE to become PROS and not ever play for plastic in the amature divisions again. They made the decision they should have to live with it. Who cares if most of them cashed for 20 bucks and took it because they are morons. The PDGA is now treating turning pro like its a freakin JOKE. They are saying being a proffesional doesnt matter because once you suck at that you can just move back down. That is rediculous. I dont care what it was that got in the way. Job Family or anything for that matter. (except injury because you cant control that) The decision was made knowing what the consequences were and they should have to deal with those consequences. As for the people who were forced to move up thats a whole different story and i think they should be allowed to move back down and play in the am divisions if they so choose.

I am also a fan of putting in place some rules for the people who want to move down. If the only reason they want to move down is for the competition then let them pay a reduced entry fee and only get a players pack and play for a trophy. I also like the idea of if the person has cashed in a Pro event in the last 12 months then they cant play in the amature division. I would like to see the line for moving down lowered to somwhere around 940-930 because thats the bulk of the competition in Advanced. The bulk of the competition in open is rated below 965 so they have plenty of competition up there to play against.

I dont think this rule has anything to do with more or less competition i think it has alot to do with letting old guys or people who made bad decisions by going pro to move down and start WINNING again and to me that doesnt seem very fair. The had their shot at winning and then they moved up. Thats what you do. You win for a while in one division untill you do it on a consistent basis then you move up and PAY YOUR DUES for a while untill you start cashing up there and doing better. Then if you cant cash up there well then you made a bad decision and you should have to deal with it. Its pretty cut and dry. The people who CHOOSE to move up should have to stay up and the people who were forced to move up should be able to come back if they so choose but from then on if they decide to cash and accept in pro then they should have to live with that decision.

I think it has more to due with the pdga trying to increase their numbers which will increase there revenues, and they have every right to do that.

But i like the 940 and under.

What would be the problem with everyone having to declare their division when they join (or play their first PDGA) and stay in that division until the next year?

An member declaring themselves Open would have to stay in the Open divisions all year. Masters in Masters, Advanced in Advanced, Intermediate at Intermediate, and so on for the entire "PDGA Season".

No flip flopping around. The only exception would be if an event did not offer that players division, then current choices would be allowed according to skill level and age.

How could anyone be called a "bagger" in such a situation?

Pros playing in am divisions is irrelevant within our current competitive system structure. A non-issue.

Wait Wait!

Why not convert to a ratings based system. Let me explain, each player gets a rating based on a standard, say 1000... naw, never mind, it'll never catch on. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Pro 2 didn't work, not because higher ranked pros complained, but because not enough people wanted to play. When I saw it offered, maybe 1 or 2 people signed up. Not real exciting.



I don't know what area of the country you play in, but when Pro 2 was offered in my neck of the woods for two tournaments, 23 signed up for the division in the first one (http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=4148),and 35 signed up for the second one. (http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=4345)

Wait Wait!

Why not convert to a ratings based system. Let me explain, each player gets a rating based on a standard, say 1000... naw, never mind, it'll never catch on. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



It might if presented more astutely.

But similar to the above proposal it would involve taking the lolly pop out of a few babies mouths.

These guys that moved up to Open already had their shot at winning plastic and now its our turn to win some plastic. Why should they just get to drop down after making a stupid decision and turning pro before they were ready. Not my fault at all. I have no problem playing 960 and above ams because they decided to stay down in my division. They didnt decide to accept cash and then move back down and try to take away from what i can win.

Like i said if you decided to become a pro and take cash then you should have to stay pro for life. If you were forced you should have the decision to move back down if you want.

Pro2 was stillborn because all it gave the Td was an opportunity to shoot himself in the foot. As a customer service we offered it on the opposite day from Advanced at our split-day tournaments, but it is not really in a TD's best financial interests to offer it. Pro 2 was bad for TDs in the same way that the R-tier concept was bad for TDs.

Pros Playing Am works for TDs. Now that we have results from six tournaments on the tour page, we can see that there is no mass exodus of <955 pros from the open division so far. In the first six tournaments to report results, 54 pros have passed on the opportunity to play am. 54 out of 54 pros eligible to play am have played pro.

[I did not count pro women who had opponents in the pro women's division, except for the pro woman who was eligible to play in an Am Women's division where there were opponents. But I did count the pro woman who had no opponents.]

Pros Playing Am is more of a philosophical thing than a customer service thing. It is a step in the direction of players competing against similarly skilled opponents. It may be a tacit recognition that there is little difference between a player who occasionally wins $50 to $100 versus a player who routinely wins that in merchandise.

Pro 2 didn't work, not because higher ranked pros complained, but because not enough people wanted to play. When I saw it offered, maybe 1 or 2 people signed up. Not real exciting.



I don't know what area of the country you play in, but when Pro 2 was offered in my neck of the woods for two tournaments, 23 signed up for the division in the first one (http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=4148),and 35 signed up for the second one. (http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=4345)



We are being overly concerned with perpetuating this "entitlement" system of everyone winning and not giving "enjoyment" and "competition" an equal (if any) voice.

More than creating special divisions for everyone, perhaps we should be focussing more on making our events fun and having competition become more of a driving force than winning. After all, everyone, even in a single division event, can "compete", but only a few, even in an 18 division event, can "win".

I do recall, way back when that divisions were not as important as they are now. We showed up to play, and would end up playing with folks of similar skill in the later rounds. When it was over all that mattered was how you did against the best guy/gal, your buds and the players in the immediate surrounding groups. It was pure competitive fun and winning (which I did my share off) was of 2nd or 3rd importance.

Are we basically giving up on competition and fun by trying to make so many divisions that sandbagging is not a concern but a standard?!?

It's not that hard to figure out where I play. It didn't catch on here.

At any rate, with this new rule, most of those people still have an option at a level they can compete.


ps. Looking at that tournament results (and assuming they played the same setup) should illuminate that Pro 2 merely amplified the inequities of our system. It was simply another creation where people got a greater reward for playing inferior golf. There were 5 guys in open who shot better than than the Pro 2 winner. They got zilch for their better play and the Pro 2 winner got $250. That is so wrong.

These guys that moved up to Open already had their shot at winning plastic and now its our turn to win some plastic. Why should they just get to drop down after making a stupid decision and turning pro before they were ready. Not my fault at all. I have no problem playing 960 and above ams because they decided to stay down in my division. They didnt decide to accept cash and then move back down and try to take away from what i can win.

Like i said if you decided to become a pro and take cash then you should have to stay pro for life. If you were forced you should have the decision to move back down if you want.



Entitlement. God Bless America.

Once again, Pros receive metal coins, Ams receive plastic coins.

Entitlement. God Bless America.

Once again, Pros receive metal coins, Ams receive plastic coins.



Yeah so what. People in other amature sports win prizes instead of cash. Its the same thing.

It's not that hard to figure out where I play. It didn't catch on here.

At any rate, with this new rule, most of those people still have an option at a level they can compete.


ps. Looking at that tournament results (and assuming they played the same setup) should illuminate that Pro 2 merely amplified the inequities of our system. It was simply another creation where people got a greater reward for playing inferior golf. There were 5 guys in open who shot better than than the Pro 2 winner. They got zilch for their better play and the Pro 2 winner got $250. That is so wrong.



They didn't play the same layouts, but as a 965ish golfer stuck donating to the 1000+ golfers (for the last 16 years) I can accurately report than I and others in my position felt like complete dillrods when players 1 stroke per round worse than us ratings wise were winning $255 cash having shot worse on easier courses. I can also state as fact that some of us did not return to that event in 2004 due to that bad taste it left in our mouths in 2003 (and yes I did express this directly to the TD).

I am not dead set against protected divisions, I know that there is a need; but there really needs to be an equal and intuitive price associated for such protection. Without it people on the short end of the stick feel like chumps, and that is a good deal more folks than the 3 or 4 at the top of the next division down.

Yes, giant sponsorship will solve this, but perhaps we need to do what we can now to make it function so that we can get and retain the folks we need in order to attract that sponsorship first.

Once again, Pros receive metal coins, Ams receive plastic coins.

Amateurs who want metal coins can play the series in my signature, but you can't spend them at the grocery store.

How is this pissing them off?

By giving the mid level Advanced players real competition for their sacred mountains of plastic? The entitlement factor, God Bless America.

High level Intermediate players shouldn't be whining if they're playing in the Advanced division. If they are they need to move back to their correct division. Nothing wrong with that, except the inbred old-school attitudes that have mutated into the ratings based divisions.

Once again, the ONLY difference between our Pros and our Ams is the type of coins paid out.



There is probably more of a regional disparity among divisional choices than most realize. Where I am (Southeastern NY - disc golf no-man's land), there are very, very few tournaments that offer Novice, Int. and Advanced. Most offer Advanced and Int. only. Not because the TDs are lazy or evil, but because there aren't enough players to require more than those 2. For the most part, the 'newbies' and 'bad golfers' play Int. and the rest of the Ams play Advanced. I am rated at 887, but just in the last year was starting to get into the cash in Advanced. Never won an event, but I knew if I played pretty consistently I could at least make the cash. Or I could play Int, and almost guarantee making the top 3. So, I played Advanced.

I know, based on the PDGA recommended divisions that this was wrong. But it is what everyone in this (and the somewhat surrounding) area have done for years. I didn't mind playing Advanced knowing that it was at best a 50/50 shot that I'd cash - that was my motivation.

Now that there will be guys like Jeff LaGrassa (rated about 50-60 points above me) in Advanced I will move back down to Int. for the few tourneys I get to play this year. I hope others in my ratings range will as well, but I don't think they will. People will be ******, on all ends of the spectrum. I don't see Pros being too happy about it either, since the 'donators' in their division will be gone.

In Texas, or Raliegh/Durham it is probably a different story.

Entitlement. God Bless America.

Once again, Pros receive metal coins, Ams receive plastic coins.



Yeah so what. People in other amature sports win prizes instead of cash. Its the same thing.



Like in high school and collegiate sports?

There simply is no substantial difference and that is where we fail.

where's the NO BEER THREAD???? :confused:

It's too early, those people are hungover. :p

I'll be playing Am at the Buckhorn Open. Never seen the course and it's supposedly not a lefty course. Call me a wimp, but throwing $20 more when I have never played the course seems a bit ridiculous, considering. Sounds like I'll need that to replace my water shots on the 4 RIGHTY WATER HOLES.

No beer, no more. A post on that thread yesterday indicated it would soon be removed.

dang it and I was getting interested in the beer for C and D Tiers topic!! :D

I would have liked the posts that NIck wanted removed removed instead of the topic. the topic was hi-jacked and was starting to come full circle /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'll be playing Am at the Buckhorn Open. Never seen the course and it's supposedly not a lefty course. Call me a wimp, but throwing $20 more when I have never played the course seems a bit ridiculous, considering. Sounds like I'll need that to replace my water shots on the 4 RIGHTY WATER HOLES.

you've been listening to luke too much. there is only 2 righty water holes (get a sidearm, or a turnover), and there are plenty of shots for a lefty on that course. glad to hear you'll be coming, ill be bagging it up with you.

dang it and I was getting interested in the beer for C and D Tiers topic!! :D

I would have liked the posts that NIck wanted removed removed instead of the topic. the topic was hi-jacked and was starting to come full circle /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Yeah, unfortunately I have the miserable experience of knowing one of those Alabama disc golfers. He used to work with my wife, and he is a compulsive liar who is only interested in promoting himself, usually at the expense of others. I will not mention the name because he will probably spout off and hijack this thread too.

I just want to get this straight. Guys who are in an "amateur" division that win a form of capital (so it really isn't amateur) are mad because guys who are at the same skill level as them accepted a different form of capital in a "professional" division (but wouldn't call disc golf their profession because they can't live off of their winnings) get to play against them?

I just want to make sure I understand what's going on, that's all. ;)

These guys that moved up to Open already had their shot at winning plastic and now its our turn to win some plastic.

i think you mean your turn?


They didnt decide to accept cash and then move back down and try to take away from what i can win.

glad to see you finally came out from behind your amateur purity facade, and presented the real selfish reason to your outrage..

I just want to get this straight. Guys who are in an "amateur" division that win a form of capital (so it really isn't amateur) are mad because guys who are at the same skill level as them accepted a different form of capital in a "professional" division (but wouldn't call disc golf their profession because they can't live off of their winnings) get to play against them?

I just want to make sure I understand what's going on, that's all. ;)



Bullseye.

But it might not catch on. At that FDR Park tourney there were no advanced rated players among the 25 players in Advanced. There were three players in open who could move down to intermediate if they wanted to.

[Hey, why do Melissa and Shannon only get to play one round?]

If you all get together and move down to Intermediate, Jeff won't have an advanced division to move down to.

It appears to me that your region is immune to the PDGA format. No matter what we do your players will keep playing up a division. Don't sweat it.

I just want to get this straight. Guys who are in an "amateur" division that win a form of capital (so it really isn't amateur) are mad because guys who are at the same skill level as them accepted a different form of capital in a "professional" division (but wouldn't call disc golf their profession because they can't live off of their winnings) get to play against them?

I just want to make sure I understand what's going on, that's all. ;)

yes, you are correct. just not all of the guys in the "amateur" division, only a select few who are afraid of more comp preventing them from stacking their plastic higher.

More than creating special divisions for everyone, perhaps we should be focussing more on making our events fun and having competition become more of a driving force than winning. After all, everyone, even in a single division event, can "compete", but only a few, even in an 18 division event, can "win".



If you didnt know this. Tournaments are about competition. Competition is about winning and losing and usually if you dont win you dont have any fun. So with that being said. Letting the guys who have already done their fair share of winning drop back down to a lower division so they can do more then their share of winning just doesnt sound very fair. Plus if you move up to Open your going to have to pay your dues for a while and your not going to cash. If you love the sport enough and want to become good then you can. If you want to slack off and get a full time job and a family and not be competitive anymore then thats your choice Thats what unsanctioned events and leagues and minis are for. Plus having a full time job doesnt get in the way of playing disc golf because i work 50 hours a week and still play 30 tournaments a year and find time to practice and play EVERYDAY during the season and most days during the winter here in MI. That is if its not to **** cold or snowy out.

If you want to have fun and play with your friends then go to minis and leagues and unsanctioned tournaments and play in whatever division you want. Thats why those events are there. Maybe the pdga should start a seperate organization that runs leagues and minis and FUN tournaments that arent about winning because when i show up to a tournament im there to win. Sure im there cuz my friends are there and i love the sport and the people involved in it, but at the end of the day its all about winning and losing. Dont get me wrong tournaments can be fun even if you play like crap and dont cash but when i show up to one im there to beat everyone in my division if at all possible. Id saying winning is #1 Comptetion is #2 and playing with my friends is #3 but 3 pretty much is gone cuz all my friends moved up 2 pro except a couple.

It's not that hard to figure out where I play. It didn't catch on here.

At any rate, with this new rule, most of those people still have an option at a level they can compete.


ps. Looking at that tournament results (and assuming they played the same setup) should illuminate that Pro 2 merely amplified the inequities of our system. It was simply another creation where people got a greater reward for playing inferior golf. There were 5 guys in open who shot better than than the Pro 2 winner. They got zilch for their better play and the Pro 2 winner got $250. That is so wrong.



They didn't play the same layouts, but as a 965ish golfer stuck donating to the 1000+ golfers (for the last 16 years) I can accurately report than I and others in my position felt like complete dillrods when players 1 stroke per round worse than us ratings wise were winning $255 cash having shot worse on easier courses. I can also state as fact that some of us did not return to that event in 2004 due to that bad taste it left in our mouths in 2003 (and yes I did express this directly to the TD).




Nick, your facts are a little off.

First of all, at the Animalfest tournament in June of 2004, the Pro 2 division and the Open division played the exact same layouts, just not at the same time. That's how you are able to compare Open scores to Pro 2 scores at the end of the tourny. If they had played different layouts, you could not compare scores.

Secondly, you mentioned playing the tournament in 2003 and not returning the next year in 2004. Please refer to the dates for those Warwick tournaments where Pro 2 was offered - the Animalfest was in June of 2004 and N.Y. States was in September of 2004.

Tournaments are about competition.



Think about that statement and YOUR desire to limit your competition.

ps. Looking at that tournament results (and assuming they played the same setup) should illuminate that Pro 2 merely amplified the inequities of our system. It was simply another creation where people got a greater reward for playing inferior golf. There were 5 guys in open who shot better than than the Pro 2 winner. They got zilch for their better play and the Pro 2 winner got $250. That is so wrong.



Well what about the Masters players who get money for shooting scores worse than some Open players who finish in the bottom half, and get zilch? Why should the Masters get money for "inferior golf" as you put it? Why isn't that "so wrong?"

Now that there will be guys like Jeff LaGrassa (rated about 50-60 points above me) in Advanced I will move back down to Int. for the few tourneys I get to play this year. I hope others in my ratings range will as well, but I don't think they will. People will be ******, on all ends of the spectrum. I don't see Pros being too happy about it either, since the 'donators' in their division will be gone.




I haven't made the decision as to whether I'll play in Advanced this year. Why should I compete for merchandise I don't want and for no PDGA points? Why should I suffer through the "sandbagger" taunts? When I played in Pro 2 against golfers of equal caliber as mine, nobody called me a sandbagger.

I agree somewhat with your conclusion, but age and or gender protection is much more reasonable to me than "ability" protection.

If you didnt know this. Tournaments are about competition. Competition is about winning and losing and usually if you dont win you dont have any fun.



So if you do not win, you didn't have fun. So 19 out of 20 Ams had a terrible time playing, hanging out, meeting new golfers, seeing some great golf, winning CTPs, and generally escaping from their everyday lives (remember, these aren't pros) for a couple days for a measly $30-50. This would not be a discussion if Ams only played for trophies, but then, only the people who weren't concerned about winning would show up, because they are there for the playing, hanging out, meeting new golfers, hanging with out of towners, seeing some great golf, winning CTPs, and generally escaping from their everyday lives.

Jeez, this thread is like listening to a bunch of spoiled children arguing over who has the most sweets!!

Count yourselves lucky you get anything for anything. I was the British Am champ in 2002, winning Am division in 5 of the 12 (count 'em, 12) events. For this, I won 2 hand-carved wooden discs, a Hall of Fame putter, and two trophies that went back the next year to be given to the new winner.
I have played Open since, made 5 finals in 2004, including two 3rd place finishes. For my efforts I have won....nothing.
The only event with cash prizes is the British Open, as it's on the Eurotour. Only the top 3 places cash. I finished 4th.

And guess what...I don't care! I play for the competition, which whilst certain people on here claim to, they clearly are more interested in walking off with piles of plastic or cash.

I pay for the privilege of playing this great sport, I don't expect anything back, except a well run event.

Grow up. :mad:

Pros Playing Am works for TDs. Now that we have results from six tournaments on the tour page, we can see that there is no mass exodus of <955 pros from the open division so far. In the first six tournaments to report results, 54 pros have passed on the opportunity to play am. 54 out of 54 pros eligible to play am have played pro.



Maybe it's because they don't want to compete for merchandise they don't want and for no PDGA points? Or because they don't want to suffer through the "sandbagger" taunts? Maybe it's because they would rather just donate in Open versus playing in Advanced, or the other alternative: staying at home and not playing at all! Have you considered attendance overall? Maybe a majority of Pro 2 eligible golfers are not even playing in tournaments anymore.

No guts to make a decision?

I had already bought my plane ticket and sent in my entry. I could get my $ back from the tournament but the plane ticket was non refundable/non transferable. Also the Pro weekend is the same weekend as Buckhorn and Big Stunts Bday.

So lick these "GUTS"!



The have the guts to decline the cash so you can keep playing am..how much did JJ decline last year? You know I think the world of you and your skills but man taking cash one month and playing am the next is a double standard. Your a better golfer and person than that.

The idea of going trophy only for prizes and donating the rest to a charity is an idea that could gain popularity. That way at least the participants know where their money is going to. As long as things ar done fair most people will not have a problem with that.

But what are your entry fees, BruceUK?

If each tournament costs 15 pounds (under 30 American dollars) then it's fine. I get the thrill of competition and comeraderie and I'll consider it greens fees for the day.

But if each tournament costs 40 pounds (about 75 American dollars) then I don't play in tournaments anymore. When I have no shot at even making last place cash, I don't play just to donate enormous sums of money to my fellow competitors.

Like in high school and collegiate sports?

There simply is no substantial difference and that is where we fail.



Those are educational sports teams and I dont consider those to be AMATURE since alot of highschool and ALL colleges give scholarships which is a form of payment to play. They also get free transportation and lodging when they travel to play other teams. Which is also a reward for playing at that school.

Tournaments are about competition.



Think about that statement and YOUR desire to limit your competition.



WORD!

So you are saying I'm a bad person for playing?
That's fine with me. I have been called worst.

I'm going to tell you and anyone else that if the rating are not out when the Am X-town happenes, I WILL BE PLAYING. SO if anyone has anything they want to say to me they can say it to my face, ON THE LEAD CARD, and we will see how much of a bad person I am!!

So [*****] you and and anyone else that has anything to say. Take it up with the PDGA. It's not my rule.

xterramaTT above was quoting $30-$50 for Adv division, which is about comparable to what we pay (Open and Am pay the same, they're purely skills based divisions). I think it was more like $60 for the Brit Open (for Open division), and as I say, only the top 3 cash.
And I say again, we get nothing for that, except a course to play on and probably some kind of lunch, eg make-your-own sandwiches.

Add on top of that, that DX plastic disc are �7-8 (yes, pounds, not dollars), and you guys get it great.

It's not that hard to figure out where I play. It didn't catch on here.

At any rate, with this new rule, most of those people still have an option at a level they can compete.


ps. Looking at that tournament results (and assuming they played the same setup) should illuminate that Pro 2 merely amplified the inequities of our system. It was simply another creation where people got a greater reward for playing inferior golf. There were 5 guys in open who shot better than than the Pro 2 winner. They got zilch for their better play and the Pro 2 winner got $250. That is so wrong.



They didn't play the same layouts, but as a 965ish golfer stuck donating to the 1000+ golfers (for the last 16 years) I can accurately report than I and others in my position felt like complete dillrods when players 1 stroke per round worse than us ratings wise were winning $255 cash having shot worse on easier courses. I can also state as fact that some of us did not return to that event in 2004 due to that bad taste it left in our mouths in 2003 (and yes I did express this directly to the TD).




Nick, your facts are a little off.

First of all, at the Animalfest tournament in June of 2004, the Pro 2 division and the Open division played the exact same layouts, just not at the same time. That's how you are able to compare Open scores to Pro 2 scores at the end of the tourny. If they had played different layouts, you could not compare scores.

Secondly, you mentioned playing the tournament in 2003 and not returning the next year in 2004. Please refer to the dates for those Warwick tournaments where Pro 2 was offered - the Animalfest was in June of 2004 and N.Y. States was in September of 2004.



Thanks for straightening me out. Yes, I attended the Animalfest V (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4148#Open) Event and shot 251 and got squat, while Jason Davis shot 3 strokes worse and got $250 cash and you shot 7 strokes worse and got $142.50. Then I along with 8 out of 15 other Open players did not return for the NY States (http://www.pdga.com/schedule/event.php?TournID=4345) ,where there was significantly more added cash and only 1 more Open player. So it wasn�t year to year, it was within 3 months. This does not include all of the Masters players disenfranchised by the 2 events either.

None of this is to say that the TDs knowingly made a mistake. They deserve kudos for the courage to try the new format, but let us hope that they learned from the experience and will not make dopes out of the best players nor the ones that have put their dues in for the longest period of time in our sport (the Masters) again, just to appease the players used to quick reward for average play.

And I am not saying Pro2 or a protected division has no place in organized disc golf, just that in that format it was a disaster.

Chill man..no I never said you were a bad person, in fact you are one of the golfers I think is good for the sport. If you want to keep using that rule fine, its there for the taking. I just thought once you took cash you were done playing ams and you were going to stay pro. I even congradulated you on the cash and want to play against you when I play in tourneys. And if I was in NC when the X-Town was, I would come and say something to you, then laugh and wish you good luck. I just didn't think you would use that rule and that you would stay pro. No hate here man so dont go tell me to screw off.

Your a better golfer and person than that.



Chill man..no I never said you were a bad person, in fact you are one of the golfers I think is good for the sport.

????

The PDGA is now treating turning pro like its a freakin JOKE.

Wrong. The PDGA is finally owning up to the fact that, in light of the tens of thousands of dollars paid out annually to so-called "amateurs" in the form of merchandise, the distinction between "pro" and "amateur" is not only artificial, but meaningless.

The PDGA is now treating turning pro like its a freakin JOKE.

Wrong. The PDGA is finally owning up to the fact that, in light of the tens of thousands of dollars paid out annually to so-called "amateurs" in the form of merchandise, the distinction between "pro" and "amateur" is not only artificial, but meaningless.



<font color="blue"> BINGO!!! </font>

1 of the reasons I want to play Am Xtown is to get a good warm up for the Pro weekend. Hopefully the ratings will be out and I will not have a choice. But right now I do.

Thread Drift alert...

Do you guys even play Bingo over there? I assumed it was just a lame British pass-time...

These guys that moved up to Open already had their shot at winning plastic and now its our turn to win some plastic.

Congratulations. You've just confirmed what everyone has suspected all along: that the TRUE reason behind your opposition to allowing "cash pros" to compete in the "plastic pro" division is <font color="green">GREED</font>.

1 of the reasons I want to play Am Xtown is to get a good warm up for the Pro weekend. Hopefully the ratings will be out and I want have a choice. But right now I do.



Cool, thats a good way to look at it. Good luck in both.

Chill man..no I never said you were a bad person, in fact you are one of the golfers I think is good for the sport. If you want to keep using that rule fine, its there for the taking. I just thought once you took cash you were done playing ams and you were going to stay pro. I even congradulated you on the cash and want to play against you when I play in tourneys. And if I was in NC when the X-Town was, I would come and say something to you, then laugh and wish you good luck. I just didn't think you would use that rule and that you would stay pro. No hate here man so dont go tell me to screw off.



Probably the best thing to do would be to remove the Pro divisions and let them all play in the Am divisions, then we would get a more meaningful breakdown of skill levels and divisions. This would probably perturb about 33% of the Open and Advanced divisions, the other 66% would be more than happy with it. That or remove Am divisions, same difference only there is more money to be made (supposedly) in the Am divisions�.

These guys that moved up to Open already had their shot at winning plastic and now its our turn to win some plastic.

Congratulations. You've just confirmed what everyone has suspected all along: that the TRUE reason behind your opposition to allowing "cash pros" to compete in the "plastic pro" division is <font color="green">GREED</font>.



Ok, Felix, now explain to us the difference between the 'greedy' Advanced players and the "Pro" players that will be playing down in Advanced? The "Pros" aren't being greedy by playing down in order to win plastic? Puhleeze.

If you want to slack off and get a full time job and a family and not be competitive anymore then thats your choice



The year is young, but this might already win the award for the most asinine comment of the year.

I would counter that getting a full time job is the antithesis of wanting �to slack off�.

Conversely, I�d say once you turn 18�if the only full time job you list is �disc golf�, then you are the slacker. (*Unless you are one of the handful�as in less than 5�of people who make more money playing disc golf than the average 16 year old flipping burgers part time at McD for $6.00/hour).

And the logic and assumptions implied in this single statement are so flawed as to be laughable. As a person gets older and takes on the normal responsibilities of adulthood (i.e. a full time job and a family), your conclusion that they no longer desire to be competitive does not logically follow.

I�m one of those people whose real life precludes me from playing or practicing every day. I have a full time career and a full time commitment to my family. But that doesn�t mean that on the 20-25 weekends per year that I do get to play in disc golf tournaments that I�ve lost my competitive nature.

You assume that the disc golf world is comprised mostly of people in your demographic: young kids whose game/talent/rating are on an upward spike, and who selfishly and greedily have a sense of entitlement that they have not yet earned. Heck, you even stated that (again, with flawed logic and reasoning) that if you don�t win or cash, then you can�t possibly have fun playing disc golf.

The truth is, pimp, that there are an equal�if not greater�number of disc golfers who are on the downside of their ability. These players are the ones who still love to compete, but not necessarily for the prizes�but for the pure enjoyment of the game and the sense of fair competition. I feel sorry for you that you can�t have fun without winning or cashing. I have fun every single time I play. Even when I�ve DFL�ed.

Have you considered just for a moment that you might be a very, very small and tiny minority voice in this matter? Because what you�re proposing is the old �move up and then move out� mentality; once you can no longer compete at your old level, you shouldn�t be able to play in PDGA tournaments any more in a division commiserate with your ability. And that�s just stupid talk.

Are you familiar with the saying �Youth is wasted on the young�? Well, that�s why I�m probably just pissing in the wind trying to convince you that you might be wrong. Hopefully these lessons of �real life� will become apparent to you as you grow up.

The PDGA is now treating turning pro like its a freakin JOKE.

Wrong. The PDGA is finally owning up to the fact that, in light of the tens of thousands of dollars paid out annually to so-called "amateurs" in the form of merchandise, the distinction between "pro" and "amateur" is not only artificial, but meaningless.



Correct, I would argue that if you compete with the intention of winning merchandise/cash worth more then your entry fee, the you would be a professional.

According to my rating, I am playing up in Advanced. I am good enough to cash unless I am having a bad day, but my goal is to make a "profit". Being a professional is also about what standard you hold yourself too.

With theses definitions I would then consider myself a professional disc golfer, I do not play in the Open division because I am not good enough yet. As soon as I can beat (regularly) the bottom 1/3 of the players in Open, then I will move up and start paying my $55/yr membership. Untill then I stay in advanced. I personally feel that the MA1 division, regardless of player rating, is an excellent division to compete in if you strive to attain the level of play as the Open players. In my experience players in MA1, are more profesional, follow curtiousy rules better, and you can develop your game at a much faster rate then staying in MA2. But if you, like me, are playing up a division, you cannot complain about how you finish, especially if the people in your division are in there legally by PDGA rules. Plus, better competition makes us better golfers, why else would anyone want to play up a division. If all I wanted to do was win tournaments, then I would have stayed in MA2.

Editorial note; Not all MA2 players break curtiousy violations, are bad players, or do not strive to compete in a higher level, this has just been my experience in my geographic location only. And yes, some seasoned players play MA2 because that is now the level the compete at.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the guys that are on this thread telling you have fair and just and wise it is to allow Pros to move down are the same guys that said how fair and just and wise Pro 2 was last year?

If you find that's "ironic," you don't understand the meaning of the word "ironic."
*
Ironic - [adj] characterized by often poignant difference or incongruity between what is expected and what actually is;

Irony - [n] incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs

The fact that the same people who support the decision to allow Pros to play down this year supported Pro2 last year demonstrates they're consistent.

But it might not catch on. At that FDR Park tourney there were no advanced rated players among the 25 players in Advanced. There were three players in open who could move down to intermediate if they wanted to.

[Hey, why do Melissa and Shannon only get to play one round?]

If you all get together and move down to Intermediate, Jeff won't have an advanced division to move down to.

It appears to me that your region is immune to the PDGA format. No matter what we do your players will keep playing up a division. Don't sweat it.



Bruce, you are almost certainly on the money (about this region being immune). It's been a 'win once and move up' philosophy since before I started playing, which explains the amount of guys playing pro & advanced that probably shouldn't be. That could also explain why we had more guys playing Pro2 (comparatively) than a lot of other regions.

As far as Melissa and Shannon, well, it was rough enough getting through one round with them, believe me! Girls can have fun playing disc golf, but not in the mud. At least, not their first time out.

If you want to slack off and get a full time job and a family and not be competitive anymore then thats your choice



The year is young, but this might already win the award for the most asinine comment of the year.

I would counter that getting a full time job is the antithesis of wanting �to slack off�.

Conversely, I�d say once you turn 18�if the only full time job you list is �disc golf�, then you are the slacker. (*Unless you are one of the handful�as in less than 5�of people who make more money playing disc golf than the average 16 year old flipping burgers part time at McD for $6.00/hour).

And the logic and assumptions implied in this single statement are so flawed as to be laughable. As a person gets older and takes on the normal responsibilities of adulthood (i.e. a full time job and a family), your conclusion that they no longer desire to be competitive does not logically follow.

I�m one of those people whose real life precludes me from playing or practicing every day. I have a full time career and a full time commitment to my family. But that doesn�t mean that on the 20-25 weekends per year that I do get to play in disc golf tournaments that I�ve lost my competitive nature.

You assume that the disc golf world is comprised mostly of people in your demographic: young kids whose game/talent/rating are on an upward spike, and who selfishly and greedily have a sense of entitlement that they have not yet earned. Heck, you even stated that (again, with flawed logic and reasoning) that if you don�t win or cash, then you can�t possibly have fun playing disc golf.

The truth is, pimp, that there are an equal�if not greater�number of disc golfers who are on the downside of their ability. These players are the ones who still love to compete, but not necessarily for the prizes�but for the pure enjoyment of the game and the sense of fair competition. I feel sorry for you that you can�t have fun without winning or cashing. I have fun every single time I play. Even when I�ve DFL�ed.

Have you considered just for a moment that you might be a very, very small and tiny minority voice in this matter? Because what you�re proposing is the old �move up and then move out� mentality; once you can no longer compete at your old level, you shouldn�t be able to play in PDGA tournaments any more in a division commiserate with your ability. And that�s just stupid talk.

Are you familiar with the saying �Youth is wasted on the young�? Well, that�s why I�m probably just pissing in the wind trying to convince you that you might be wrong. Hopefully these lessons of �real life� will become apparent to you as you grow up.



BoooYAH! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Dead on. I can fell that.

Does anyone else find it ironic that the guys that are on this thread telling you have fair and just and wise it is to allow Pros to move down are the same guys that said how fair and just and wise Pro 2 was last year?

If you find that's "ironic," you don't understand the meaning of the word "ironic."
*
Ironic - [adj] characterized by often poignant difference or incongruity between what is expected and what actually is;

Irony - [n] incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs

The fact that the same people who support the decision to allow Pros to play down this year supported Pro2 last year demonstrates they're consistent.



Folks must be laying off the cool-aid today. What's with all this "making-sense" business?

I just want to get this straight. Guys who are in an "amateur" division that win a form of capital (so it really isn't amateur) are mad because guys who are at the same skill level as them accepted a different form of capital in a "professional" division (but wouldn't call disc golf their profession because they can't live off of their winnings) get to play against them?

I just want to make sure I understand what's going on, that's all.



It would be all fine and dandy if they WERE the same level as the majority of the division they are going down to but they arent. The will be moving down and be at the top 5 percent of the division. Not playing against people of the same skill level. They will be leaving more of the same skill behind and coming down to compete with 5 percent of a division and just pretty much smoke everyone in that division. Thats why i say make it around 940 or 930 then the people who move down would be gaining A TON of competition not LOSING a ton.

Hey Jeff,

Are you telling me that if this rule was in place last year when you CLEANED up in the AM division you would have been ****** off about it. Oh wait you were already rated 950 anyway so it would have mattered. I love how since it didnt affect you then you like to make comments to people who it does affect. Im not afraid i say bring on the freakin competition it will only make me play better and when i still win i can laugh in the face of the sissys who dropped back down. And just because im not afraid and i welcome the competition doesnt mean that the rule is fair or logical.

But it might not catch on. At that FDR Park tourney there were no advanced rated players among the 25 players in Advanced. There were three players in open who could move down to intermediate if they wanted to.

[Hey, why do Melissa and Shannon only get to play one round?]

If you all get together and move down to Intermediate, Jeff won't have an advanced division to move down to.

It appears to me that your region is immune to the PDGA format. No matter what we do your players will keep playing up a division. Don't sweat it.



Bruce, you are almost certainly on the money (about this region being immune). It's been a 'win once and move up' philosophy since before I started playing, which explains the amount of guys playing pro & advanced that probably shouldn't be. That could also explain why we had more guys playing Pro2 (comparatively) than a lot of other regions.

As far as Melissa and Shannon, well, it was rough enough getting through one round with them, believe me! Girls can have fun playing disc golf, but not in the mud. At least, not their first time out.



You must be talking about some region other than the MADC. We've had more Ratings Based PDGA events than any other region in the world I believe and for longer.

I have a dream that someday, an Amateur Player will play in the Professional World Championships, win the event and turn down the cash to remain an amateur. In that world, no amateur will ever be considered or called a "Sand Bagger".

There is nothing wrong with "greed", "selfish expectations" or "playing for each others money". JUST DON"T DO IT IN THE AMATEUR CLASS! (That is if we ever decide to create one in the first place...)

If you want to slack off and get a full time job and a family and not be competitive anymore then thats your choice



When i said slack off i meant slack off on your disc golf not slack off on life.

Maybe this makes a little more scence.

If you want to slack off on your disc golf and get a full time job and a family and not be competitive anymore then thats your choice.

Sorry for the confusiong and im glad Nick likes to read WAY to far into things.

Hey Rooster,

You said that i said i dont have fun if i dont win but then i read this comment that i just made and it makes me think otherwise.


Dont get me wrong tournaments can be fun even if you play like crap and dont cash but when i show up to one im there to beat everyone in my division if at all possible. Id saying winning is #1 Comptetion is #2 and playing with my friends is #3 but 3 pretty much is gone cuz all my friends moved up 2 pro except a couple.

It would be all fine and dandy if they WERE the same level as the majority of the division they are going down to but they arent. The will be moving down and be at the top 5 percent of the division. Not playing against people of the same skill level. They will be leaving more of the same skill behind and coming down to compete with 5 percent of a division and just pretty much smoke everyone in that division. Thats why i say make it around 940 or 930 then the people who move down would be gaining A TON of competition not LOSING a ton.




Where did you get that "940 or 930" number from? It wouldn't just happen to be around what you're rated, would it? (Hint: it is, I checked). I'm sure your intention to be the top rated Advanced player is noble and all, but shouldn't other people be allowed to challenge you, or do you only like playing with people who you know are worse players?

The year is young, but this might already win the award for the most asinine comment of the year. <font color="red"> I meant if you want to slack off on your disc golf </font>

I would counter that getting a full time job is the antithesis of wanting �to slack off�. <font color="red"> I work 50 hours a week as a Manager of a Parts department AND I play 30 tournaments a year AND practice every day. I had a girlfriend last summer when i was doing this and i still found time to hang out with her as well. </font>

Conversely, I�d say once you turn 18�if the only full time job you list is �disc golf�, then you are the slacker. (*Unless you are one of the handful�as in less than 5�of people who make more money playing disc golf than the average 16 year old flipping burgers part time at McD for $6.00/hour).

And the logic and assumptions implied in this single statement are so flawed as to be laughable. As a person gets older and takes on the normal responsibilities of adulthood (i.e. a full time job and a family), your conclusion that they no longer desire to be competitive does not logically follow. <font color="red"> I didnt say they lost the desire to compete i am saying they start to lose the SKILL to compete. </font>

I�m one of those people whose real life precludes me from playing or practicing every day. I have a full time career and a full time commitment to my family. But that doesn�t mean that on the 20-25 weekends per year that I do get to play in disc golf tournaments that I�ve lost my competitive nature. <font color="red"> Refer to above comment. Plus this goes along with making the decision to turn pro. If you know you have a family and a full time career that doesnt allow you to practice as much as you need to then dont move up. All so if you think that your job or family will become a factor that hinders your perfomance in the future then DONT TURN PRO </font>

You assume that the disc golf world is comprised mostly of people in your demographic: young kids whose game/talent/rating are on an upward spike, and who selfishly and greedily have a sense of entitlement that they have not yet earned. <font color="red"> This is not the case. I dont think that the whole PDGA is the same as me. </font> Heck, you even stated that (again, with flawed logic and reasoning) that if you don�t win or cash, then you can�t possibly have fun playing disc golf. <font color="red"> That is not what i said. I said tournaments can be fun even if you play like crap. I didnt say if i dont win i dont have a good time because if that was true i wouldnt have had a good time at about 20 out of the 31 tournaments that i played last year. I had fun at EVERY SINGLE event that i played I just think its ALOT more fun when you win then it is when you lose. Doesnt everyone???

Where did you get that "940 or 930" number from? It wouldn't just happen to be around what you're rated, would it? (Hint: it is, I checked). I'm sure your intention to be the top rated Advanced player is noble and all, but shouldn't other people be allowed to challenge you, or do you only like playing with people who you know are worse players?



I know it is. Go check the ratings and see who is playing in the advanced division. About 60 Advanced players are rated above 955 and 20 of them have moved up to Open. So that leaves 40 Advanced players in the country that are rated 955 or more. Thats not even 1 per state. Then go look how many Advanced players are in the 930s-940s range. Theres about 400 players in the player ratings range. So there are 10 times more 930s and 940s players then there are 955+ rated players in the Advanced division. WOW i think that might even come out to 10%.

Do you want me to go threw and do the pros that are rated 955 and better and compare them to the ams to or was that enough info for you???

If you didnt know this. Tournaments are about competition. Competition is about winning and losing and usually if you dont win you dont have any fun.



Big_DG_Pimpin, Rooster was referring to that statement from you.

Here again i would point out that the statement says USUALLY you dont have any fun. Its doesnt say if you dont win you dont have fun.

Sigh.

The other major flaw in your logic is that the only Pros who will be moving down to play in the Amateur divisions are all rated right at 954 (which would put them in the top 5% of the MA1 division).

Your logic also assumes that these players are on the upswing of their games and talents.

The truth and reality are a much different picture though, and are the impetus for the rule change.

What about Pros who are rated closer to 920 than the mythical 954 line? Do you believe any of those peopel might move down? What about the 940 rated players who have been playing Pro for numerous years, but whose skills and ratings have been on a constant decline (and will continue to decline)?

What about Pro women, Masters, and other Pro divisions that almost never have more than a handful of entrants, yet whose ratings are sub-900? Do you suspect that any of these golfers might want to move down to play in larger and more competitive divisions? Would you list them in the top 5% of the MA1 division?

At the end of the 2005 season, if you go back and analyze the numbers, you'll probably find that the average rating of Pros who played Am is closer to 920 than 954. Hardly the top 5% you keep harping about.

It sounds like your chief complaint (or, more accurately, your chief fear) is that there might be a handful of 954, up-and-coming (or steadily improving -- rather than steadily declining) Pros who come back down merely for a better chance at taking 'your' stacks of plastic.

What do you suggest for players like Andi Lehman? Andi is rated at 868, and plays in the Open Womens division. Out of the 8 sanctioned tournaments Andi played in last year, she was the only person in her division in 5 of those events. Do you really have a problem with her playing in a large MA2 or MA1 field, or even the ever growing FA1 division here in Texas? Or do you really believe it's too bad that she made the choice to grow pro, and she should just resign herself to not having any competition to play against.

Because there are a lot more people like Andi: older Pros whose skills are declining and older Age/Gender protected division that seldom field more than a handful of players at any given event --- than there are the players who you are scared of (young Pros ranked right about 950-954).