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scoop
Feb 01 2005, 03:40 PM
Here again i would point out that the statement says USUALLY you dont have any fun. Its doesnt say if you dont win you dont have fun.



If your going to qualify that statement, do so a little more honestly: YOU USUALLY don't have any fun...

I'd bet that more than 98% of any given tournament's players (uh, excluding the winners, obviously) would say that they had fun despite not winning. So, if you were making a generalized comment about the relationship between winning and having fun, it would have to be:

Competition is about winning and losing and it is UNusual if you dont win you dont have any fun.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 04:02 PM
Sigh.

The other major flaw in your logic is that the only Pros who will be moving down to play in the Amateur divisions are all rated right at 954 (which would put them in the top 5% of the MA1 division). <font color="red"> I did not state that i think they are the only ones who are going to be moving down. </font>

Your logic also assumes that these players are on the upswing of their games and talents. <font color="red"> Where do you get that from??? </font>

The truth and reality are a much different picture though, and are the impetus for the rule change.

What about Pros who are rated closer to 920 than the mythical 954 line? Do you believe any of those peopel might move down? What about the 940 rated players who have been playing Pro for numerous years, but whose skills and ratings have been on a constant decline (and will continue to decline)? <font color="red"> I already stated that we should bring the drop down line down to about 940. So that the people who would be coming down would drop right into the middle of about 400 players right at their skill level. They wouldnt just be droping into the top 5-10 percent of the division. </font>

What about Pro women, Masters, and other Pro divisions that almost never have more than a handful of entrants, yet whose ratings are sub-900? Do you suspect that any of these golfers might want to move down to play in larger and more competitive divisions? Would you list them in the top 5% of the MA1 division? <font color="red"> I already said that i think its great for those division to be able to move over to a division with more competition. I stated that further up in the thread, and no i would not list them in the top 5 percent of the MA1 division. Im not talking about those divisions though im talking about from Open to MA1. </font>

At the end of the 2005 season, if you go back and analyze the numbers, you'll probably find that the average rating of Pros who played Am is closer to 920 than 954. Hardly the top 5% you keep harping about. <font color="red"> This may be true but that fact that the 954 would even be abllowed is rediculous in itself. Why not just move the rating down to a 940 and not have to worry about if the 940+ rated players are going to drop down or not </font>

It sounds like your chief complaint (or, more accurately, your chief fear) is that there might be a handful of 954, up-and-coming (or steadily improving -- rather than steadily declining) Pros who come back down merely for a better chance at taking 'your' stacks of plastic. <font color="red"> Im not afraid of the competition at all i just dont think that its fair that they CHOOSE to turn pro and they should have to deal with that decision. </font>

What do you suggest for players like Andi Lehman? Andi is rated at 868, and plays in the Open Womens division. Out of the 8 sanctioned tournaments Andi played in last year, she was the only person in her division in 5 of those events. Do you really have a problem with her playing in a large MA2 or MA1 field, or even the ever growing FA1 division here in Texas? Or do you really believe it's too bad that she made the choice to grow pro, and she should just resign herself to not having any competition to play against. <font color="red"> I already discussed this aspect. I think its great for divisions that dont have that much competition like the womesn and Grands and all those division. Hell i would love it if Juliana, Val, Leslie, Des and Brita came and played in my division for one tournament, but thats not the divisions im talking about. Im talking about Open to MA1 </font>

Because there are a lot more people like Andi: older Pros whose skills are declining and older Age/Gender protected division that seldom field more than a handful of players at any given event --- than there are the players who you are scared of (young Pros ranked right about 950-954). <font color="red"> Thats awesome and I know that which is why i have been making the statement about 940-954 rated players moving down. They move down and just clean up where as all the other people move down and actually add to the competition. I think its a great rule for all those people i just think that the cut should be 940 and not 955. </font>

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 04:06 PM
If your going to qualify that statement, do so a little more honestly: YOU USUALLY don't have any fun...




If i was talking about myself I would have said when I dont win I dont have any fun.

What i should have said is. Competition is based on Winning and losing but you usually have more fun when you win.

Sorry about the confusion there. I have fun EVERY time i play whether i win or lose i just have more fun when i win.

tbender
Feb 01 2005, 04:07 PM
Sorry about the confusion there. I have fun EVERY time i play whether i win or lose i just have more fun when i win.



So then why does any of this matter with you? I mean, you're in it for the fun, right?

Feb 01 2005, 04:13 PM
Hell i would love it if Juliana, Val, Leslie, Des and Brita came and played in my division for one tournament, but thats not the divisions im talking about. Im talking about Open to MA1




Juliana= 946 PR

Des= 946 PR

Brigetta= 948 PR

What is the difference between male and female Pro of the same rating?

They made the same descision to turn pro as the men did yet you would love to play them????

Feb 01 2005, 04:24 PM
What is the difference between male and female Pro of the same rating?




Do you really need that question answered? :D

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 04:25 PM
I would love to play them because they are sweet female disc golfers and dont always have enough people to play against. The Pro men ALWAYS have enough people to play against. Have you ever been to a tournament where there was 1 Open player and 1 MA1 player. I dont think so you but you go to tons of tournaments with 1 Open women or 1 MA1 women. That right there is the diff. The women have every right to have as much competition as the men so if they can move a division and have more competition then thats great but the men are NEVER short on competition. The people in the open division that are short on competition are the ones that are rated 940 and below not the ones rated 940 and above. If what you guys are saying is true and these guys who are moving down dont care about winning they just want some more people to compete with then they can just stay where they are and have A TON of people to compete with. They just wont be competeing at the top of their division. I mean thats what you guys are saying right. They dont want to win plastic they just want to play for the fun of it right??? So the 940 plus guys can stay in open and play with the 600 940-965 rated players that are in that division and the 940 and under players can moved down and join the advanced division where they will have EQUALLY skilled players to compete against.

Feb 01 2005, 04:27 PM
If i may steal a phrase from Vinnie...SHUT YOUR DONKEY!!!!! :)

Feb 01 2005, 04:40 PM
Where did you get that "940 or 930" number from? It wouldn't just happen to be around what you're rated, would it? (Hint: it is, I checked). I'm sure your intention to be the top rated Advanced player is noble and all, but shouldn't other people be allowed to challenge you, or do you only like playing with people who you know are worse players?



I know it is. Go check the ratings and see who is playing in the advanced division. About 60 Advanced players are rated above 955 and 20 of them have moved up to Open. So that leaves 40 Advanced players in the country that are rated 955 or more. Thats not even 1 per state. Then go look how many Advanced players are in the 930s-940s range. Theres about 400 players in the player ratings range. So there are 10 times more 930s and 940s players then there are 955+ rated players in the Advanced division. WOW i think that might even come out to 10%.

Do you want me to go threw and do the pros that are rated 955 and better and compare them to the ams to or was that enough info for you???



What do advanced players who are rated above 955 have to do with this argument? Aren't we talking about pro players below 955?

chris
Feb 01 2005, 04:42 PM
They should have 2 divisions: 'Good Players' and 'Bad Players'
after you get tired of being called a "bad player" move up to the "good players" division.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 04:43 PM
They are saying the rule will let 954 and lower rated pros drop in my division for MORE competition. In all actuallity if a pro rated anywhere from 940-954 drops down into MA1 they wont be gaining ANY competition they will actually be losing competition against players of the same rating. Now if the cut was 940 and below those people would be gaining a TON of equally skilled competition. The problem is not the rule itself it is where the cut off is set at.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 04:44 PM
They should have 2 divisions: 'Good Players' and 'Bad Players'
after you get tired of being called a "bad player" move up to the "good players" division.



This may be true but if it was you shouldnt be able to bounce back and forth whenever you please.

Moderator005
Feb 01 2005, 04:49 PM
None of this is to say that the TDs knowingly made a mistake. They deserve kudos for the courage to try the new format, but let us hope that they learned from the experience and will not make dopes out of the best players nor the ones that have put their dues in for the longest period of time in our sport (the Masters) again, just to appease the players used to quick reward for average play.

And I am not saying Pro2 or a protected division has no place in organized disc golf, just that in that format it was a disaster.



In conversations with the Warwick tournament directors after the events, they indicated that the more than 20 competitors each tournament that raved over the format and the opportunity to be competitive for a change left a warm, lasting impression and was more than enough to overrule the few Masters over 960 who didn't attend and the Open whiners between 960 and 980 who didn't cash.

That's not verbatim, but that's exactly the impression I got from those TDs.

Moderator005
Feb 01 2005, 04:54 PM
They should have 2 divisions: 'Good Players' and 'Bad Players'
after you get tired of being called a "bad player" move up to the "good players" division.



That's a typical response from one of the "good players" for which none of this is an issue.

Now imagine if you were squarely right in the middle between a "good player" and a "bad player."

What would you do then, eh, Hamburgler?

james_mccaine
Feb 01 2005, 05:02 PM
Open whiners


That's pathetically weak. Running from them cause they are better than you, almost all of them kick your ***, a bunch of them kick your *** and get way less than you and you have the audacity to call THEM whiners.

jefferson
Feb 01 2005, 05:13 PM
Hey Jeff,

Are you telling me that if this rule was in place last year when you CLEANED up in the AM division you would have been ****** off about it.

im guessing that you're asking if i would have been ****** if this rule was put into effect last year... no, i wouldn't. im playing 4 adv tournies this year, and im not ****** this year either. i am not afraid of competition.


Oh wait you were already rated 950 anyway so it would have mattered.

actually i was rated 940 at the end of '03 and beginning of '04, and i was not rated 950 until the end of '04


I love how since it didnt affect you then you like to make comments to people who it does affect.

how does it not affect me? i am a 952 rated advanced player. if i stay advanced it affects me, if i accept ca$h next weekend it affects me. how does it not affect me?


Im not afraid i say bring on the freakin competition it will only make me play better and when i still win i can laugh in the face of the sissys who dropped back down. And just because im not afraid and i welcome the competition doesnt mean that the rule is fair or logical.

good, stick with this, because your arguments change from post to post and rooster has already pointed out the illogicality in those, so i won't bother. you seriously need to step away from the keyboard and re-read this thread and see for yourself what kind of [*****] your making yourself out to be. as you're reading and contemplating (not typing), ponder this: maybe the disc golf world doesn't revolve around me and my swollen ego.

mattdisc
Feb 01 2005, 05:17 PM
In conversations with the Warwick tournament directors after the events, they indicated that the more than 20 competitors each tournament that raved over the format and the opportunity to be competitive for a change left a warm, lasting impression and was more than enough to overrule the few Masters over 960 who didn't attend and the Open whiners between 960 and 980 who didn't cash.

That's not verbatim, but that's exactly the impression I got from those TDs. [QUOTE]




BTW those TD's also benefitted from playing Pro 2. :D

Looking forward to playing the NT at Warwick/Mahwah with a division for a whiney Open/Master Player.

Oh yeah, how about 2 divisions, male and female, with a sliding entry fee based on your rating. :cool:<font color="green"> </font>

dscmn
Feb 01 2005, 05:19 PM
thanks james...i was one of the so-called whiners. i got a chuckle from your comment. the reality is that i made a choice not to play in an event that rewarded inferior play from relatively equal players. last i checked i have that option.

without rehashing the entire episode, jason davis won the pro2 division. jason is a friend, he plays just about daily...his rating was not even close to accurate. he and i have been competing with each other for a long time. recently at a tinicum safari event he tied jamey king (1000 rated player, 2005 worlds champ?) with a smoking 66 (lacourte and others reckoned this to be above 1020 golf)...i was next with a 73. there was and isn't any reason why jason and i shouldn't be competing together. well, except that i'll be getting my butt kicked.

dscmn
Feb 01 2005, 05:28 PM
lagrassa, http://public.afosi.amc.af.mil/eagle/index.asp, commies will be reported to the proper authorities.

bruce_brakel
Feb 01 2005, 05:36 PM
There are 394 pro men rated 954-940 of 1978 total pro men.
There are 180 am men rated 954-940 of 4569 total am men.

Lets look at the players rated 950. 23 pros and 9 ams. The average pro played 4 tournaments as a pro. The average amateur played 8 tournaments in an amateur division and 1 in a pro division.

Among 940 players there are 9 non-master aged pros rated 940 and 8 non-master age ams rated 940. The pros average 4.3 events last year and the ams average 8.

rhett
Feb 01 2005, 05:44 PM
Sweet! 394 more men for the Advanced division! The MA1 divisions I've been seeing are shrinking, so this is good news. Once all the Intermediate players actually start playing Intermediate, we'll need the 394 players even more.

Jake L
Feb 01 2005, 05:44 PM
and where does it say how many open players are "whiners"?

Feb 01 2005, 05:51 PM
I like it when people call me intermediate....at least until they play against me /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 05:52 PM
Sweet! 394 more men for the Advanced division! The MA1 divisions I've been seeing are shrinking, so this is good news. Once all the Intermediate players actually start playing Intermediate, we'll need the 394 players even more.



Do you even play in the MA1 division???

Thats great. 394 players that can move down that have a higher rating then me but already made the CHOICE excepted pro cash. What a freakin crock. Whats the points of moving these guys from the Open division to the MA1 division. You just threw 394 more sandbaggers into the equation. Lets have a round of applause for the PDGA they are doing a great job eliminating sandbagging :confused: :mad:

neonnoodle
Feb 01 2005, 05:54 PM
None of this is to say that the TDs knowingly made a mistake. They deserve kudos for the courage to try the new format, but let us hope that they learned from the experience and will not make dopes out of the best players nor the ones that have put their dues in for the longest period of time in our sport (the Masters) again, just to appease the players used to quick reward for average play.

And I am not saying Pro2 or a protected division has no place in organized disc golf, just that in that format it was a disaster.



In conversations with the Warwick tournament directors after the events, they indicated that the more than 20 competitors each tournament that raved over the format and the opportunity to be competitive for a change left a warm, lasting impression and was more than enough to overrule the few Masters over 960 who didn't attend and the Open whiners between 960 and 980 who didn't cash.

That's not verbatim, but that's exactly the impression I got from those TDs.



Gee, that's a surprise. (Major eye roll...)

The the TDs son nearly won 2 divisions in one event didn't factor into it either...

The format was a noble attempt, the result was "Sandbagger Heaven". I'm quite sure all of the sandbaggers highly approved of it... :p

Feb 01 2005, 05:55 PM
They are saying the rule will let 954 and lower rated pros drop in my division for MORE competition. In all actuallity if a pro rated anywhere from 940-954 drops down into MA1 they wont be gaining ANY competition they will actually be losing competition against players of the same rating. Now if the cut was 940 and below those people would be gaining a TON of equally skilled competition. The problem is not the rule itself it is where the cut off is set at.



I'm not sure what you mean by "more" competition. They are letting them drop down for more equal competition with less cost. Instead of paying to play as a pro just to lose they are now able to play at the less expensive level and compete with up and coming players who will be playing above their rating.

Either way, the largest group of players should be in the middle of the range of ratings for a division. So, for a division where the rating range is from 915 to 955, most players should be around 935 (one off from your current rating). If the rating range is from 915 to 940 the average player should have a rating of 927.5. If the group of 930-940 players is so large, like you're suggesting, then it makes sense to have the cutoff be 955 so the largest group is close to the median rating for the range. To win an Advanced tournament you should be shooting in the 950 range, which is the top of the range and should set you ahead of the pack. In other words, to win you should have to play well.

The ratings are a way of telling how well, on average, a player will perform compared to other players. It's a statistic. Something that's not included in the ratings, but is very important in the realm of statistics is each player's varience from round to round. For some players (those with a high varience), playing well means shooting above their rating. Most up and coming players are like that. They're practicing a lot, probably fairly new to competition and get better from month to month. For other players (those with a low varience) playing well means shooting at their rating. Most players who have peaked are in this category. They've learned consistancy but are either at the top of their game or have passed that point. They don't practice as much as they need to to improve, but still have a decent game. So, you'll have players who should be shooting above their rating competing with players who should be shooting at their rating. That sounds pretty fair to me.

There is a chance you'll get an up and coming player who somehow manages to fall through the cracks and ends up being able to play advanced after cashing because of a few bad tournaments, but that will be rare and short lived. If they really are improving their rating will eventually reflect that and they won't qualify anymore. That or they're getting worse and they'll probably be playing below their rating anyway.

The only other probem would be a consistant 950 rated player who has cashed in the past but kept his rating. That person should place well in every Advanced tournament. However, given that a 954 isn't enough to cash any most compeditive pro events I doubt that will be a problem.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 05:56 PM
The format was a noble attempt, the result was "Sandbagger Heaven". I'm quite sure all of the sandbaggers highly approved of it...



Im quite sure they love the fact that they went pro but now can come back and SANDBAG again.

Moderator005
Feb 01 2005, 06:09 PM
Open whiners


That's pathetically weak. Running from them cause they are better than you, almost all of them kick your ***, a bunch of them kick your *** and get way less than you and you have the audacity to call THEM whiners.



Way to quote me out of context, James.

Read what I wrote again. It was a few competitors with ratings betwen 960 and 980 who didn't cash in Open that complained about the format to the TD. They were the whiners.

Not all Open players.

And what makes me a "commie," Laboski?

Feb 01 2005, 06:10 PM
Gee, that's a surprise. (Major eye roll...)

The the TDs son nearly won 2 divisions in one event didn't factor into it either...

The format was a noble attempt, the result was "Sandbagger Heaven". I'm quite sure all of the sandbaggers highly approved of it... :p



For those unaware, Nick is one of the whiners Jeff was talking about. I know, I know, you are already aware of Nick's penchant for whining, but he is one of the particular whiners in this case.

And since Nick failed to clarify his completely unrelated comment about the 'TDs son', (bad day, Nick? Haven't alienated enough people already?) I'll let everyone know that he is now all of 16 years old. **** fine golfer, nice kid. 16 years old.

Pro 2 was not Sandbagger's Heaven, a better definition would be 'Ratings Based Event'. You know, like the ones that Nick was just bragging about the MADC having had more of than anywhere else.

Some days it's like shooting fish in a barrel. And the fish are already dead. And it's a really small barrel.

bruce_brakel
Feb 01 2005, 06:15 PM
Do you even play in the MA1 division???



A: Dumb question. Rhett is not exactly an anonymous poster. You are exactly two clicks away from seeing his stats when you see his posts.

B. I played advanced in 17 of my 20 sanctioned tournaments last year. I've got no problem competing against the pros this might draw back into advanced. If Spike wants to play advanced at the IOS 7, I say bring it!

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 06:16 PM
First off money should not be a factor in this at all. If you cant afford to pay the pro entry fees then you never should have turned pro in the first place. Pure and simple. All we are doing with this rule is giving people who made a bad decision a break. Thats all there is to it. Most of these guys moved up before they should have and are now getting smacked around by the really good players but still competing against 400 other players at their skill level.

Second off.

Look at it this way. If one guy that is rated 940-954 moves down and playing in the advanced division he will have 179 people in the COUNTRY that are in his rating range where as if he stays up and plays pro he has 399 players that are in his ratings range. So in all reality all we are doing is letting these guys pay less money to come down and take over the MA1 division.

Why is this coming back to lower entry fees. If you cant afford entry fees then you shouldnt be playing tournaments in the first place. Its called being on a budget and if your budget doesnt have room for you to pay pro entry fees then guess what??? YOU DONT TURN OR PLAY PRO.

gnduke
Feb 01 2005, 06:17 PM
sandbagger
n : someone who deceives you about his true nature or intent in order to take advantage of you.



If this definition is true, then a "sandbagger" is an unrated player playing in a division that is well below his own skill level.

How is it that a "pro" player with a rating of less than 955 can deceive you about his skill level or intention. It is much more likely that an advanced player on his way up with a 945 rating will play better than a 954 rated pro with a more stable rating.

It sounds more like you are upset that you finally saw the majority of players above 940 go pro and thought you would be top dog for a while. How many of those that chose to go pro at the end of last year or early this year made that decision based on the upcoming rule change. How many of those players below 955 that recently decided to go pro would have made that decision if they didn't know about the new rule ?

bruce_brakel
Feb 01 2005, 06:20 PM
If we did not have that clause about Am Worlds and Am Nationals in there, I'd play pro master next year. As it is, I don't want to take a week off to take my kids to 2007 Am Worlds and not play. So I'm staying am just until I'm dead or Jon turns pro.

cgflesner
Feb 01 2005, 06:24 PM
Man, you would think that an advanced player would be happy that he is going to have more players in his division.

What are you a chicken?

I don't like the rule because it is making my division smaller, but I can't figure out what your problem is.

here kitty kitty.

:D

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 06:24 PM
It sounds more like you are upset that you finally saw the majority of players above 940 go pro and thought you would be top dog for a while. How many of those that chose to go pro at the end of last year or early this year made that decision based on the upcoming rule change. How many of those players below 955 that recently decided to go pro would have made that decision if they didn't know about the new rule ?



So what if i am. Everyone else got a shot at the same thing but now all the sudden im going to have to deal with some jerk bags who went pro when they shouldnt have and now are going to punk out and come back in play in my division.

Thats like letting me drop back down into the MA2 division because i only cashed in less then half of my tournaments last year. Maybe i should get to pay a cheaper entry fee and play with players more on my skill level.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 06:27 PM
My problem is that people who made what should be a very important and thought out decision dont have to live with it or own up to it anymore. They can just punk out and come back to my division when they already made the decision to never play amature or what we call amature again. That is the main source of my anger. Ill take the added competition because its likely i will just whoop up on them as well and i will win more plastic then i would have if they werent in my division anyway.

cgflesner
Feb 01 2005, 06:29 PM
Here kitty kitty.

seewhere
Feb 01 2005, 06:29 PM
Big DG Pimp let them move back down then you kick their ARSE and send them down even lower in the ranks. Dont worry about what everyone else is doing just play your game!!

Feb 01 2005, 06:35 PM
It sounds more like you are upset that you finally saw the majority of players above 940 go pro and thought you would be top dog for a while. How many of those that chose to go pro at the end of last year or early this year made that decision based on the upcoming rule change. How many of those players below 955 that recently decided to go pro would have made that decision if they didn't know about the new rule ?



<font color="red">So what if i am</font>. <font color="green">Everyone else got a shot at the same thing but now all the sudden im going to have to deal with some jerk bags who went pro when they shouldnt have and now are going to punk out and come back in play in my division.</font>

<font color="blue">Thats like letting me drop back down into the MA2 division because i only cashed in less then half of my tournaments last year. Maybe i should get to pay a cheaper entry fee and play with players more on my skill level.</font>



<font color="red">If you are, then your arguments, loosely called so, are based on emotion and not reason; making them not really arguments at all</font>
<font color="green">It's not your division, where do you get this sense of entitlement, like you deserve something</font>
<font color="blue">you have a 934 rating, thats hardly your "skill level"</font>

ck34
Feb 01 2005, 06:35 PM
Terminology clarification:

A 940 pro of any age is PLAYING UP in Open
A 940 pro over 39 is PLAYING UP in Master Pro
A 940 pro of any age (or FPO) is PLAYING SIDEWAYS in Advanced
A 970 am of any age just MIGHT BE A BAGGER (say it like Jeff Foxworthy) in Advanced
A 970 pro of any age is PLAYING DOWN in Advanced BUT THAT IS NOT ALLOWED
A 940 am of any age is PLAYING DOWN in Intermediate BUT THAT IS NOT ALLOWED

There's no crying in baseball, and there's no playing down in disc golf.

cgflesner
Feb 01 2005, 06:37 PM
Burn.

that's right around the cut off for int.

:p

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 06:41 PM
Your right about that seewhere.

I just think its a crock that you can just bounce back and forth from pro to am like that. Its just a load of crap that you decide to go pro and never play for plastic again and then the same organization that said after you go pro you cant go back says "Well i guess since you guys made a bad decision we will give you a break and let you play down again".

rhett
Feb 01 2005, 06:41 PM
So what if i am. Everyone else got a shot at the same thing but now all the sudden im going to have to deal with some jerk bags who went pro when they shouldnt have and now are going to punk out and come back in play in my division.



I hope you get over this. I hope the snow melts soon so you can get outside and stop being bothered by this so much. :)

I also hope you pay attention to how you fare against the pros and what their ratings are. Please let me know if my 20 rating-point hypothesis between am and pro is accurate. If it is, you should be playing just about dead even with those 954 rated pros. And wouldn't that be nice. :)

cgflesner
Feb 01 2005, 06:45 PM
I don't know about that.

I know some darn good pro players who have a 954 rating.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 06:46 PM
I also hope you pay attention to how you fare against the pros and what their ratings are. Please let me know if my 20 rating-point hypothesis between am and pro is accurate. If it is, you should be playing just about dead even with those 954 rated pros. And wouldn't that be nice.



If this is true then it would be very nice, but if i just get my ace handed to me by guys who shouldnt have turned pro in the first place im going to be a little more then upset.

As for The Cheffs comments.

Everyone of my friends and the people who player advanced before this rule change got the chance to play advanced and not have pros dropped down on the and I should get the same chance.

If 934 isnt my skill level then what do you suggest is???

tbender
Feb 01 2005, 06:47 PM
Plastic coins, metal coins, plastic coins, metal coins....

It's all the same.


I wonder how the 940-954 Pros like being called "jerk bags?"

bruce_brakel
Feb 01 2005, 06:47 PM
Thats like letting me drop back down into the MA2 division because i only cashed in less then half of my tournaments last year. Maybe i should get to pay a cheaper entry fee and play with players more on my skill level.

No its like letting you play Am 2 if your rating drops below 915 which you are allowed to do. When I signed up as an advanced player it was a one-way trip. Then when I signed up as an advanced player I could never go back to Intermediate. They changed the rule. I had a crippling injury and I went back.

Maybe if you had taken that one-way trip up to Advanced you would have some kind of moral argument that it is wrong to have a revolving door at the bottom of pro. But you never played that system. And you rode the revolving door when it was there for you.

You took full advantage of the revolving door for <915 players who were good enough to take prizes in advanced. When you were under 915 you took prizes in advanced and then a month later were back in intermediate.

What's good for Mills and the PDGA when Mills is the beneficiary in Intermediate is an outrage when Spike or Durco or someone might be the beneficiary in advanced.

This is just self-ignorant hypocrisy.

Feb 01 2005, 06:51 PM
First off money should not be a factor in this at all. If you cant afford to pay the pro entry fees then you never should have turned pro in the first place. Pure and simple. All we are doing with this rule is giving people who made a bad decision a break. Thats all there is to it. Most of these guys moved up before they should have and are now getting smacked around by the really good players but still competing against 400 other players at their skill level.

Second off.

Look at it this way. If one guy that is rated 940-954 moves down and playing in the advanced division he will have 179 people in the COUNTRY that are in his rating range where as if he stays up and plays pro he has 399 players that are in his ratings range. So in all reality all we are doing is letting these guys pay less money to come down and take over the MA1 division.

Why is this coming back to lower entry fees. If you cant afford entry fees then you shouldnt be playing tournaments in the first place. Its called being on a budget and if your budget doesnt have room for you to pay pro entry fees then guess what??? YOU DONT TURN OR PLAY PRO.



So you think any player who doesn't want to pay the higher entry fees should be allowed to say in Advanced regardless of their rating?

If money isn't a factor then why are you worried about who's playing in what division at all? If money isn't a factor then why do you care if someone else wins the prizes?

You still don't understand the idea that some people play at their ratings when they play well and some play above their ratings whent they play well. You can argue about how many people this applies to until your figers fall off, but that's not the issue.

I keep noticing that your arguments come back to it making it harder for people in the majority of the Advanced division (which you are a part of) to win. Again, a majority of the people in any division shouldn't have a chance to win every tournament. If you change the range for the Advanced division, this would be the case.

To win a good tournament you should have to play at the upper level of your ability. For some people that's higher than their rating. For others it's at their rating. You have people who's potential is the same competing. Why do you see that as a problem? I know the answer is because you'd rather be in an easier division, but I don't see how that's good for everybody else.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 06:52 PM
No because you do not make the CHOICE to play advanced and say you will NEVER play Intermediate again. If that had been the choice then i would have made it and never played the 2 Intermediate tournaments that i played this year. I also played those tournaments so that i could warm up the for Advanced division at the same tournament which was the following day. Youll also notice that i didnt win either of those tournaments.


What's good for Mills and the PDGA when Mills is the beneficiary in Intermediate is an outrage when Spike or Durco or someone might be the beneficiary in advanced.



I dont see Durco moving down and playing advanced ever again.

Oh the comment about being jerk bags is only for those who just turned pro but are going to punk out and play advanced this year instead of manning up and stayin in the division they CHOOSE to be in.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 01 2005, 06:54 PM
I keep noticing that your arguments come back to it making it harder for people in the majority of the Advanced division (which you are a part of) to win. Again, a majority of the people in any division shouldn't have a chance to win every tournament. If you change the range for the Advanced division, this would be the case.



If this is the case then why are you letting the 400 pros move out of the pro division if everyone in a division shouldnt have a chance to win every tournament???

bruce_brakel
Feb 01 2005, 07:13 PM
No because you do not make the CHOICE to play advanced and say you will NEVER play Intermediate again.

I did. I had to, to get an invite to 2000 Worlds. So I did. That was the rule then.

You never made the choice. You had it both ways.

All we're doing is saying no one ever has to make the choice. Not you, not anybody. Not making the choice between intermediate and advanced is just like not making the choice between advanced and pro, except for the little thing about Am Worlds and USADGC.

chris
Feb 01 2005, 07:25 PM
They should have 2 divisions: 'Good Players' and 'Bad Players'
after you get tired of being called a "bad player" move up to the "good players" division.



That's a typical response from one of the "good players" for which none of this is an issue.

Now imagine if you were squarely right in the middle between a "good player" and a "bad player."

What would you do then, eh, Hamburgler?



You're right, I haven't really read any of the posts on this board and I'm not too concered with it however, I believe this wasn't the brightest idea the pdga has had. Infact, it's right up there with getting rid of the 2 meter rule. I don't think it is fair to the "true" am players that have never cashed or to the ones who have turned down cash to stay an amature. Once you accept cash you are accepting the responsibilities that come with it. You shouldn't be able to drop down the a lower division and play against them if you chose. If you really do "get a life" and not play as much, then you always have a chance to petition the pdga and move down. I do not believe it should be a choice for every pro that is rated 955 or less.

Feb 01 2005, 07:32 PM
That's a typical response from one of the "good players" for which none of this is an issue.



It is an issue because we need more donators oooooorrrrrr I m ean sacrifitial lambs ooooooorrrrrr I mean players in our divisions :D:o:eek: :D :p :D:o

xterramatt
Feb 01 2005, 10:43 PM
Your right about that seewhere.

I just think its a crock that you can just bounce back and forth from pro to am like that. Its just a load of crap that you decide to go pro and never play for plastic again and then the same organization that said after you go pro you cant go back says "Well i guess since you guys made a bad decision we will give you a break and let you play down again".



I'l be playing down next weekend. And I voted for Kerry. Guess that makes me a flip flopper. Not a sand bagger, a flip flopper.

First I voted Pro, then I voted against it! Mills, you really must have a job like the Maytag repairman, with the amount that you can post while at "work".

Maybe instead of typing, you could get a basket in the shop and practice all day. It's not like you are working....

ANHYZER
Feb 02 2005, 03:28 AM
My problem is that people who made what should be a very important and thought out decision dont have to live with it or own up to it anymore. They can just punk out and come back to my division when they already made the decision to never play amature or what we call amature again. That is the main source of my anger. Ill take the added competition because its likely i will just whoop up on them as well and i will win more plastic then i would have if they werent in my division anyway.




Are you angry for all the Ams or just you? It shouldn't matter anyway if you plan on going Pro soon.

Personally, It doesn't bother me...As someone else pointed out; There are 3 types of players:

Up and coming players=Playing ABOVE their rating
Stable players=Playing AT their rating
Declining players=Playing BELOW their rating.

Which one are you?

Feb 02 2005, 09:48 AM
Are you angry for all the Ams or just you? It shouldn't matter anyway if you plan on going Pro soon.

Personally, It doesn't bother me...As someone else pointed out; There are 3 types of players:

Up and coming players=Playing ABOVE their rating
Stable players=Playing AT their rating
Declining players=Playing BELOW their rating.

Which one are you?



My current rating 853

Using the conversion that 10 points ~ 1 stroke. In my last two PDGA tournaments, I was 1 shot behind a regularly rated 945 Advanced player and 6.5 shots behind a regularly rated 1006 player, per 18 holes. Granted this is not entirely accurate, but that puts me in the mid/high 920's. Which is exactly where I feel I belong.

My point.....Technically I would be playing up in MA2! But ratings don't mean squat. Play to your competition. If a pro's rating drops below 955, and he is beating a 935 player by more then 2 shots per round then his rating will eventually go back up.

Along with letting <955 players play down, there should be a cap for Advanced players. Anyone rated 955 and up must play open, just like anyone rated >915 must play advanced. This would be ultimately fair, and would cease debate.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 10:09 AM
Are you angry for all the Ams or just you? It shouldn't matter anyway if you plan on going Pro soon.

Personally, It doesn't bother me...As someone else pointed out; There are 3 types of players:

Up and coming players=Playing ABOVE their rating
Stable players=Playing AT their rating
Declining players=Playing BELOW their rating.




Im ****** off for all the ams.

I dont even think that your second question needs answering. Youll find out soon enough out in Scottsdale ;)

Feb 02 2005, 10:19 AM
Are you angry for all the Ams or just you? It shouldn't matter anyway if you plan on going Pro soon.

Personally, It doesn't bother me...As someone else pointed out; There are 3 types of players:

Up and coming players=Playing ABOVE their rating
Stable players=Playing AT their rating
Declining players=Playing BELOW their rating.




Im ****** off for all the ams.

I dont even think that your second question needs answering. Youll find out soon enough out in Scottsdale ;)




all the ams?

will you

SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Feb 02 2005, 10:51 AM
Before a bunch of anonymous buttnuggets jump all over the guy (oh wait, it's too late for that), look at this the way that he has. At least give him the benefit of trying to.

He has been playing for a few years. Started out in novice/intermediate and watched the same bunch of guys take the big stacks of plastic for placing highly in Advanced. He decides that he wants in on some of the action and realizes that the only way to get it is to improve his game. At the same time, those guys that were taking all the prizes have improved their game as well and moved up to Open.

Now, coming into 2005 he feels that his game is just about at the point where he can cash more often than not. He has paid his dues (like everybody else had to do) and now it's his chance to enjoy the fruits of his labor.

But then the PDGA changes the rules. The normal 'cycle' has been broken, and the rug has been pulled out from under him.
His desire to, finally, cash on a regular basis in Advanced does not make him any more 'greedy' than the people that turned 'Pro' and are going to play down because they want to win stuff.

If anything, they (the Pros playing down) are the greedy ones, because they already had the opportunity to win stacks of plastic, and now are coming back for more of the same. Double dipping, if you will.

It's almost as if you let a former high school basketball star go to college, play some Division 1 ball, then come back and play against high schoolers again. If that was the case, don't you think the current high school seniors would be ******?

Flame away, I'm sure there will be a bunch of posts about how we should be playing for the fun of the game and all that crap, but anyone who says that and has played Am and accepted plastic is a total hypocrite. If the PDGA wanted Ams to play strictly for 'the fun of the game' then they would ban the practice of paying out in plastic completely. That, quite obviously, will never happen.

bruceuk
Feb 02 2005, 10:58 AM
I'd rather not, I have the feeling his feet stink as bad as his logic... :p

Feb 02 2005, 11:06 AM
Jeff, i agree that this new rule has to go ! but EW the winner of advanced atCCC in no pro yet ! here's his PDGA info: Player Information (for 2004)
Player Statistics | Ratings Detail | Ratings History
2004 | 2003

Eric J. Williams #23067
PDGA Points Information
Class # Tourn. Points Prize
Amateur 10 1167


Player Rating Information
Current Rating: 930 (as of 15-Dec-2004)


Tournament Results
Advanced
Place Points Tournament Date(s) Total Prize
27 330 Cross Canyon Challenge 24-Jan to 25-Jan-2004 192
13 67 Orbital Enhancements Open 28-Feb to 29-Feb-2004 239
10 120 Melbourne Open 20-Mar to 21-Mar-2004 228
12 112 Gator Country Classic 10 24-Apr to 25-Apr-2004 235
1 65 Silver Springs Shootout 05-Jun to 06-Jun-2004 177
3 90 Coachman Classic 19-Jun to 20-Jun-2004 209
6 60 Capital City Tournament 21-Aug to 22-Aug-2004 236
10 60 Orlando Open 23-Oct to 24-Oct-2004 223
5 127 Moccasin Lake Open 06-Nov to 07-Nov-2004 241
4 135 4th Southwest Florida Open 04-Dec to 05-Dec-2004 207 the guy is getting good but NO pro player, Canwetalk

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 11:15 AM
Thank you Dan. Atleast someone can see it from my point of view. I played about 5 MA2 tournaments and then moved up to MA1 for all of 2004 except 2 tournaments. I got smacked around for the most part but i worked my ACE off and got better to the point where I would be at the top of the Division for the most part. Now the PDGA makes this REDICULOUS rule and i go back to being middle of the pack again.

Ill tell you what. Looks like im going to be staying AM for a little while longer then i wanted to because the PDGA made this stupid new rule. They say they wanted to get rid of sandbaggers, well that just created one out of me. I think ill stay am till im about 970.

neonnoodle
Feb 02 2005, 11:20 AM
I don't think it is fair to the "true" am players that have never cashed or to the ones who have turned down cash to stay an amature.



Huh? Both the foundation and failure of our competitive system.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 11:31 AM
If you want tournaments where you can play for fun then START RUNNING them and see who all shows up. Ill bet that your tournaments wont even have enough people show up for it to be worth running.

Thats just my opinion i could be wrong.

Feb 02 2005, 11:42 AM
never

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 11:51 AM
What??? Your telling me you dont want to run tournaments if no one is going to show up and play them. Are you saying that people dont want to just play for fun??? Man you have to be kidding me. I thought EVERYONE just wanted to play for fun. (said in most sarcastic voice possible)

Ill tell you what. Maybe all you older guys would love to play for fun because you cant beat up younger guys anymore but all the guys i play with wouldnt even think about going to a tournament if there wasnt a payout and i dont think many of the new comers to the sport would either.

If you guys are sayin thats all that people want to play for then why dont you start running $10 entry fee tournaments where if you get top 5 you get a trophy. I mean seriously. You dont have to figure out payouts all you have to do it buy trophys and show up to collect money. Shouldnt be that hard. Especially when only like 10 people show up to play.

jefferson
Feb 02 2005, 12:04 PM
If you guys are sayin thats all that people want to play for then why dont you start running $10 entry fee tournaments where if you get top 5 you get a trophy. I mean seriously. You dont have to figure out payouts all you have to do it buy trophys and show up to collect money. Shouldnt be that hard. Especially when only like 10 people show up to play.

once again you're typing without thinking, and have no factual basis for these kind of remarks. have you ever heard of a guy named harold duvall? every tourney he runs, ams play for trophy discs only (and a players pack). the top 3rd of the am field gets the same "prize" a trophy disc. the last 2 tournies he has run have had a couple more than 10 people show up:

Charleston Classic (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4333) - 69 amateur players

Savannah Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4924) - 49 amateur players

james_mccaine
Feb 02 2005, 12:06 PM
I got smacked around for the most part but i worked my ACE off and got better to the point where I would be at the top of the Division for the most part. Now the PDGA makes this REDICULOUS rule and i go back to being middle of the pack again.




Nothing personal, but you have worked your *** off to rise the top of a contrived division, you are still in the middle of the pack in regards to all golfers. It's pretty unseemly for anyone but the best golfers to complain about how they "deserve" this or that monetary reward.

This stupid system is like a long climb up the mountain with piles of money spaced at intervals along the way. Many people look to the piles halfway up because they are easy to get to. Why look to the top if there is easy pickings halfway? If the pile was placed at the top like it should be, then this discussion would not be happening. Noone would be hanging out halfway and resting, everyone would naturally be moving upward towards the rewards.

seewhere
Feb 02 2005, 12:12 PM
James can we stop I need to catch my breath.. :D

gnduke
Feb 02 2005, 12:12 PM
Ill tell you what. Maybe all you older guys would love to play for fun because you cant beat up younger guys anymore but all the guys i play with wouldnt even think about going to a tournament if there wasnt a payout and i dont think many of the new comers to the sport would either.



I don't know, I travel and play in about 30 tournaments a year and did that for more than a year before I "cashed". Now I'll cash if I play well. That's more than a year I was playing knowing that there was no payout for me no matter how I played. I don't think the new comers would mind playing in a tournament environment for very low entry fees. I think we might even get more new comers out for that type of event.

jefferson
Feb 02 2005, 12:12 PM
Jeff, i agree that this new rule has to go !

sorry, i am not an opponent of this rule


but EW the winner of advanced atCCC in no pro yet !

MtL started this thread with this, obviously misinformed, quote:


Guess who won the cross canyon?

A pro.

and i followed later with:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guess who won the cross canyon?

A pro.

This is the dumbest thing the PDGA has ever done.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

first of all the guy who won the ccc is deffintleynot a pro he is in the top 25% in the state of florida ADVANCED division


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

great argument

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 12:19 PM
Nothing personal, but you have worked your *** off to rise the top of a contrived division, you are still in the middle of the pack in regards to all golfers. It's pretty unseemly for anyone but the best golfers to complain about how they "deserve" this or that monetary reward.




I said i worked my *** off to get to the top of this division and now it wont be the top of that division anymore. I have my eye on becoming a 1000+ rated pro these are just little stops along the way. I am in no way shape or form ready to jump in and play with the big dogs. I have NEVER won a individual tournament in my entire life and i dont have the consistency or the confidence to just jump in a start playing pro. So im not stopping here and taking a rest. I am improving my skills in this division untill i am ready to make the climb into the Open division. I can tell you there is no way im going to be AM for life. I have only been playing tournaments for 1 full year and when i go to Vegas i will be starting my 2nd full season of tournaments. Some people have stayed in the advanced division for 5+ years. I plan on staying this year and MAYBE next year so i can get some wins under my belt gain some confidence and consistency and then i will make the jump and never turn back like a lot of these PUNKS are going to do this year.

jconnell
Feb 02 2005, 12:24 PM
Pimp quote:
Thats just my opinion i could be wrong.

Something tells me ray ray wasn't refering to running tournaments when he said "never". ;) :p

Seems to me Steve that if you've worked your "ACE" off to get to the top of the MA1 heap in Michigan, then you should be ready to take on some pros that might show up in your division. If it really was your hard work that got you to the top, then a few extra players should be no problem.

But when you ***** about these few players coming back to Advanced from the pro ranks, it appears to me that you weren't working to get better, you were just biding your time until guys like Slater and Romine moved up and out of your way.

I understand what you are feeling and given the system that was in place, I can't blame you 100%. Dan does have a point...you are a product of the old system who is caught in the transition. Maybe if you stopped looking at it as a threat and "woe is me", and more like an opportunity to get more "suckers" into the division to take money/prizes from, you'd feel better. Clearly it is the prizes that motivate you, so I would think the prospect of more players in the division and bigger pots to win would be enticing to you. I don't think your solitary voice is going to make them suddenly change the rule. Either you have to learn to live with it or move on.

While you are free to feel and say what you like, you are proclaiming to speak for all the ams out there, and I'd like to ask you to stop. You are speaking for you. This am doesn't agree with your feelings on the new rules. I have no problems with the rules in place now. I welcome any pros who want to take a shot in whatever MA1 division I'm in. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

--Josh

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 12:26 PM
once again you're typing without thinking, and have no factual basis for these kind of remarks. have you ever heard of a guy named harold duvall? every tourney he runs, ams play for trophy discs only (and a players pack). the top 3rd of the am field gets the same "prize" a trophy disc. the last 2 tournies he has run have had a couple more than 10 people show up:



I am telling you what guys around my area have been saying.

What is the entry fee to this tournament???
What do the trophy discs look like???
What comes in the players pack???

I was talking about tournaments where you show up pay 10 bucks and play. Then the top 3rd get little dinky trouphys for their efforts.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 12:35 PM
But when you ***** about these few players coming back to Advanced from the pro ranks, it appears to me that you weren't working to get better, you were just biding your time until guys like Slater and Romine moved up and out of your way.



Yeah i must have been biding my time untill they moved up. They have been playing for 3.5 years and I just moved up to Advanced this year. I must have been biding my time your right. My rating went from 866 to 934 last year. I didnt start at a 934 then just wait all year till those guys moved up and out of my way. Those guys are my good friends and I wasnt waiting for them to move up and out of my way. Yes it is good for me that they did move up but i wasnt waiting for it.

Like i said before i welcome the competition. The thing i dont like about the rule is that people who CHOOSE to move up to pro and never play am again dont have to live up to that choice anymore. I just think thats a crock. When i decide to move up ill be up FOREVER. Whether i become a super pro or one of those idiots who made a bad choice and is not getting SMOKED day in and day out by the other pros. Thats honorable and respectable and the right thing to do. In the real world if you make a decision then you have to live with the consequences and now the PDGA says hey its ok that all you guys made a bad decision on something as important and calling yourself a proffesional but now we are going to let you go back down and play with the amatures again.

seewhere
Feb 02 2005, 12:39 PM
Hey pimp nice 4 words in BOLD.
I like em.. :D

CHOOSE FOREVER SMOKED PDGA

idahojon
Feb 02 2005, 12:40 PM
My rating went from 866 to 934 last year.



I think I'll introduce a motion that all players with ratings of 932 and above have to play pro. After all, that's only 7 throws off of scratch golf.


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

neonnoodle
Feb 02 2005, 12:42 PM
All these harsh negative vibes!

Why don't ams play for "NO" profit and pros play for the possibility of a "LITTLE" profit, and NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET?

Is that really such a strange idea?

Players wanting to win stacks would win them in a skill based professional division and leave the am divisions to "Amateurs".

I know we have never done this before, but it is not like it has no precedence out in the world.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 12:51 PM
I think I'll introduce a motion that all players with ratings of 932 and above have to play pro. After all, that's only 7 throws off of scratch golf.




I knew the board was just full of conspiracy :eek: **** old guys trying to make it harder and harder for us young guns to cash :mad:

Feb 02 2005, 01:11 PM
[/QUOTE]

I said i worked my *** off to get to the top of this division and now it wont be the top of that division anymore. I have my eye on becoming a 1000+ rated pro these are just little stops along the way. I am in no way shape or form ready to jump in and play with the big dogs. I have NEVER won a individual tournament in my entire life and i dont have the consistency or the confidence to just jump in a start playing pro. So im not stopping here and taking a rest. I am improving my skills in this division untill i am ready to make the climb into the Open division. I can tell you there is no way im going to be AM for life. I have only been playing tournaments for 1 full year and when i go to Vegas i will be starting my 2nd full season of tournaments. Some people have stayed in the advanced division for 5+ years. I plan on staying this year and MAYBE next year so i can get some wins under my belt gain some confidence and consistency and then i will make the jump and never turn back like a lot of these PUNKS are going to do this year.

[/QUOTE]

For someone without a lot of CONFIDENCE, your sure talk a lot of crap! :o

Feb 02 2005, 01:18 PM
you are such a <font color="red">[offensive terms removed]</font>,
quit playing, or quit whining
but most of all quit posting this mindless dribble

bruce_brakel
Feb 02 2005, 01:18 PM
That is what it is. All we are talking about here is Millz' low self-esteem. I was 5-3 against him last year but that was after I jumped out to a 4-0 lead. He is still improving but does not see it. By June he will see the Pros Play Am rule as an opportunity to add to the number of players he can beat, and not anthing adding to the number of players who are beating him.

idahojon
Feb 02 2005, 01:24 PM
I think I'll introduce a motion that all players with ratings of 932 and above have to play pro. After all, that's only 7 throws off of scratch golf.




I knew the board was just full of conspiracy :eek: **** old guys trying to make it harder and harder for us young guns to cash :mad:



Oh, for goodness sakes, Millz....take a deep breath...
I'm not going to any such thing. You have to quit being so reactionary about everything.

And if you want to *CASH*...Play pro...All you are doing now is PLASTICKING...And in a lot of places, the TD might go out and get gift certificates at restaurants and theaters, donated goods from local merchants, and other stuff that isn't your prescious plastic coinage. How about that? Or would you come on here and start a thread about how unfair that was? And how they were "jerk bags" and "stupid" and "REDICULOUS (sic)???"

I wonder what you would say if half a dozen players with 950+ ratings that hadn't gone pro all of a sudden started showing up at the tourneys you play. Would you get as hacked off at them for taking away your opportunity as you are at the low-rated pros that want to play for the plastic?

Dan Howard had it right a few posts back when he said that you came to this sport expecting something that was fostered by this merch/cash system, and now the system is evolving away from your expectations. Well grow up and deal with it. There are likely to be changes made in the pro system once you get there (if you ever do) that you might not like. There are likely to be laws passed out in the real world that you don't agree with, and you are welcome to state your opinion, but that doesn't make the legislators that passed such into "jerk bags" or "stupid." It just means that you disagree.

I have an idea, Millz....There will be Board elections this summer. Why don't you run for a position on the BoD. With your excellent and highly diplomatic communications skills and well thought out arguments, you should be able to get lots of things rammed through without anyone disagreeing with you. And you'd be a voice for that highly underrepresented population of top advanced ams that are so threatened by low level pros. You could be called the "We Have It Now, Yo!" party....or WHINY for short.

In all seriousness, you have a point that was considered when the rule was being formulated. It's just that compared to the positive effect this has for lots of players that might otherwise leave competition or are not currently able to find a division with more than a couple players, your point didn't win out. That's the way that compromise and negotiation and formulation goes. If you put as much energy into something positive, you'd be much happier and your positive attitude would give you an advantage on the course.

And then you'd beat those pros anyway, so it doesn't matter that they played in your division.

Feb 02 2005, 01:34 PM
I said i worked my *** off to get to the top of this division and now it wont be the top of that division anymore.



dude,
934 is HARDLY top of the semi-pro ('scuse me - advanced) division.

But i see your point. you've had a hard life. DG pimpin' ain't easy. You just a squirrel tryin' ta get a nut. I can hear you callin now, "oh i just wanna win something... i just wanna win something."

well rest assured, little boy: you're winning the hearts of the readers of the message board.

justingill
Feb 02 2005, 01:44 PM
I dont understand what all of these top rated Advanced players are complaining about.

If they have this passion for disc golf that has carried them this far... ...why stop at Adv??

I currently just moved up to Advanced after my first year of Discin'. I won my local series in AM2 (Intermediate), and I have since played every event since in Advanced. I have not won an event in Advanced yet, but I'm close. And by NOT WINNING in advanced, the desire to GET BETTER has never been stronger!

I remind you all:
We ALL play the same course.

That is the beauty and beast of our sport.
You are competitng against the same course that everybody else is playing. Sure there are variables (wind, starting postition, experience, etc.) BUT we are playing against the course. WHO cares if some guy that has won a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EVENT on some other day!
When I throw, every day I play a little differently. The same guys I lose to in some events, I will beat in others.

There is NO REASON why any Advanced "Amateur" player cannot beat a "Professional" player in a particular event.

Arguing about playing against people within the same bracket of player's ratings is just illogical. It has no purpose. THEY ARE IN YOUR RATINGS BRACKET!

And they are in that bracket for a reason. They play at the SAME LEVEL that an Advanced "Amateur" does.

This topic has frustrated alot of players since the PDGA has altered the ruling. But it gives me, personally, a greater DESIRE to beat them!

I get better by playing with better players! Don't you?

And just because you THINK you are THE BEST player in a division. Doesn't mean you are.

This goes for both PRO's and AM's. When a 'PRO' moves down and plays an 'AM', he might think he is the better player. And when an 'AM' with a higher rating than anybody else playing THINKS they are THE BEST.

ANYBODY can beat ANYBODY in this game.

(ex. the Miami Dolphins beat the New England Patriots this year. Who actually thought the Flordia Fish would win? Honestly!)

As an AM, I am going to take this opportunity to play with some pro players and not complain. I will beat a couple of them, and I will lose to a lot more. BUT! I will get better!!

I play disc golf cause it's a FUN GAME!

So just shut up, and throw!

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 01:58 PM
Oh, for goodness sakes, Millz....take a deep breath...
I'm not going to any such thing. You have to quit being so reactionary about everything.




I was JOKING. JOKING JOKING JOKING about that comment. You are now the one being reactionary.

If i thought i could get on the BOD and have to time contribute then i would but i work 50 hours a week and play 35 tournaments a year.

As for you guys who think im complaining about the competition i am not. I welcome it. What i am complaining about is the fact that making the decision to turn pro doesnt have any concequenses anymore and the people who made that decision in haste can now come back and play as amatures again.

Im not worried about them taking my plastic because in all reality i am prolly at the same level they are anyway as you guys have stated. I will prolly beat these guys all summer long. Thats not what im complaining about. Its the fact that now you can just go pro and have no reprocutions other then no Am Worlds and no USADGC.

By the way im not stopping at the ADV division. I have been playing tournaments seriously for one year and i am on my way to the pro division. I am in ADV for the time being to gain confidence expeirience consistency and a good strong mental game. Once I feel that i have acheived those things i will move on to become an Open player and never look back even though this new rule will allow me to. Plus by the time the season is over i prolly wont be able to turn pro and come back anyway.

Sorry you guys think im afraid of losing plastic. I have hundreds of discs just sitting around anyway.

The whole basis of my arguments is that people CHOOSE to become pros knowing the consiquences and now they dont have to deal with those consequences.

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 02:06 PM
There are likely to be laws passed out in the real world that you don't agree with, and you are welcome to state your opinion, but that doesn't make the legislators that passed such into "jerk bags" or "stupid." It just means that you disagree.



I wasnt saying that the people who passed it were jerk bags i was saying the people who will take advantage of it are jerk bags.

There is really nothing else i can say about this topic that i havent already said. Sorry i ****** everyone off and only 2 of you seem to see where i am coming from on this. The PDGA created the mindset that i am in and now they are going to go and change it. Thats fine. I will continue to play in tournaments and have fun and prolly kick some *****.

Im done talking about this unless anyone has any direct commments to me regarding what i have already said or if they have any questions about what i said.

Bring on the 954 and below pros. It will just make my winning that much better of a accomplishment and that much better of a PAY OFF!!!!!!! :D

DiscPimp Out

Feb 02 2005, 05:16 PM
I will continue to play in tournaments and have fun and prolly kick some *****.

Im done talking about this unless anyone has any direct commments to me regarding what i have already said or if they have any questions about what i said.

Bring on the 954 and below pros. It will just make my winning that much better of a accomplishment and that much better of a PAY OFF!!!!!!! :D

DiscPimp Out



Once again, for all of your talk about your lack of confidence and consistency, you seem to talk a lot of smack? You really are an arrogant moron, aren't you. :o

cbdiscpimp
Feb 02 2005, 05:25 PM
Once again, for all of your talk about your lack of confidence and consistency, you seem to talk a lot of smack? You really are an arrogant moron, aren't you.



I never said i didnt have the confidence or consistency to play against other ams. I said i didnt have enough to play against the pros which is why i am still an am.

Second. No im not an arrogant moron, you guys just take this board WAY to seriously. I am a very sarcastic person and you guys LOVE to just jump all over me when im even being an ACEHOLE. I think its hillarious that i can make one post and like 10 of you guys will get in a huge uproar over what i had to say. Its seems more like you guys care about what i have to say WAY more then i give a crap what you guys have to say :o:eek: ;) :D:p

Feb 02 2005, 08:31 PM
Its seems more like you guys care about what i have to say WAY more then i give a crap what you guys have to say




I think we have 31+/- pages to the contrary,
who posts more...
you,
or the rest of us

that its even close I think makes the point

xterramatt
Feb 02 2005, 11:19 PM
the random deuce guy has great points.

Here's my ideas on the whole grand scheme of things as you travel from junior or rec to int to advanced to pro....


I also think that pros should play for prizes worth more than double their entry fee. Ams should have a max payout of double the entry fee. This way, payout can be deep, and there is less of a division between say, 1st and 5th place in a field of 30. These people are in the top of their division, and with shallow payout, those who win repeatedly are only making maybe 10-15% more than second, the top 1/3 should get back their entry fees. payout could go as deep as 2/3. It's amateur, these people should be out there to have fun and compete.

Here's the killer.
Intermediate, recreational, and junior divisions should play one day tournaments only. This works well to grow the sport. It allows those who have busy lives or less serious endeavors in their disc golf careers a chance to test the waters. perhaps these divisions could be offered on different days... perhaps junior and recreational on saturday, and Intermediate on Sunday. Players who enjoyed the competition in the junior or rec divisions can compete in the Intermediate division if spots are offered. This would allow for a range of divisions, but allow the more serious players (ADV, PRO) to play 2 days, and the less hardened to play shorter tournaments. If you want to play 2 days, you can either play the Rec and Int divisions, or play advanced against the larger competition. This would allow younger players to get a chance to play tournaments without their entire families being involved - "Just pick me up at 5:30, mom!"

This leaves the pro division. I feel the top 33-40% could be rewarded, utilizing added purse to deepen the payout, as opposed to boosting the top payout. Added funds could instead of being directly distributed among the same number of contestants, could instead go to a sliding scale of fictional added players to deepen the payout.

Here's how it would work. 30 Pros, $50 per player $1410 to pay out the top 10 players. $141 per player.

With $500 added cash, 5 fictional players are added to the purse. This allows the payout to pay out the top 12. 35/3 is 11.667. The payout is now $1910 among the top 12, instead of 10. $159 per player It might be a less drastic top payout raise, but you are giving more people a chance at the money. with just $500 added, 40% gets paid out, not just 33%. it would be relatively easy to add this little calculator into an excel file.

If $50 is not enough for pros to play for, they can enter moeny into a pro pool. Top 1/3 get paid. so, if say, out of a pool of 30 pros, 12 want to add to the pro pool, say, $50. the top 4 would divvy up $600. say, 300, 150, 100, 50. now, this allows everyone to play for the regular payout, but allows the top players to play for more than tournament funds. Anyone who wants in, can, those who opt not to, are not punished for it. The Pro pool is a side bet, and no PDGA fees will be deducted.

So basically, added cash deepens the payout for pros. Pros can opt to add to a pro pool on top of the normal (reasonable) entry fee.

Ams play with a maximum 2X payout, with deeper payout as this is a division all about fun and competition.

Rec and Juniors play Saturday only. 1 day events will get more players into tournaments. More players who get the bug, means larger player pools and more tournaments.

Intermediates play on Sunday. Intermediates and Juniors can play in Intermediate if they want an extra day's worth of tournament.


-----

What it does....

Juniors and Rec players can play single day tournaments. This allows them to get a taste of the sport, and allows Juniors with busy families a chance to play. If they are insistent on playing for 2 days, they can play Junior then Intermediate, Rec then Intermediate, or simply play in advanced.

Intermediates will play for 1 day. Those who want to play for two days can play advanced. Or they can play Recreational then Intermediate, if their player rating allows it.

Advanced players play for moderate spoils, but more than anything, they play for EXPERIENCE. There are no huge payouts for them when they reach the top of the Advanced field. It will not pay for Advanced players to "bag". When they want to move up to pro, it will be a small step up in funds.

Pros can play for a modest entry fee, playing for 33% payout, unless cash is added, which would both boost the payout but also increase the number of spots paid out.
Pros can also opt to join a pro side bet pool, which also pays out the top 1/3. this would be free of PDGA fees.

Top pros will then be playing for good amounts of green. Pros in general, will be playing for that elusive cash.

OK, bit lengthy, but what do you think of my plan?

Feb 02 2005, 11:38 PM
Its seems more like you guys care about what i have to say WAY more then i give a crap what you guys have to say.


I checked,
you account for 1 out of 7 posts, more than three times the next person.

Aleksey Bubis #22722
Feb 03 2005, 01:13 AM
Everything takes time, eventually the pdga will be a perfect system like the democracy that runs this country :D, so let's all just play the sport and have fun, eventually it all workout.

bruceuk
Feb 03 2005, 05:36 AM
Not to mention earlier in the thread where he was actually begging for a response!!
I think what it really seems like is; no one agrees with you. Which isn't surprising, as you can't manage to agree with yourself from post to post.

Feb 03 2005, 01:31 PM
[QUOTE]


Second. No im not an arrogant moron, you guys just take this board WAY to seriously. I am a very sarcastic person and you guys LOVE to just jump all over me when im even being an ACEHOLE. I think its hillarious that i can make one post and like 10 of you guys will get in a huge uproar over what i had to say. Its seems more like you guys care about what i have to say WAY more then i give a crap what you guys have to say :o:eek: ;) :D:p



Perhaps if you stopped being an arrogant moron and stopped making assanine, inconsistent remarks, we might lay off of you. But until that happens, you need to be called out. Your horribly biased opinions need to be challenged. The truth shall set you free. :D

Plankeye
Feb 03 2005, 03:01 PM
Another good point/idea which may have been overlooked on a previous page was made by Scotty Faison{paraphrased}

<font color="green">If you are a pro rated below 950 you can only play advanced if you did not accept cash in the past year.</font>

Look...I play advanced. I am an advanced player that usually finishes down near the bottom of the division. I know I am a donator to the rest of the advanced division, but it doesn't matter to me. I play to have fun and if I happen to win a little plastic then so be it. I play advanced to be able to see other advanced players play and try to learn things by seeing them throw.

I started play advanced last fall and I only played one AM event and that was because I was going through a case of tendonitis in my right wrist(my throwing hand). I wanted to play the tourny but I did not want to pay the advanced money to finish last.

kostar
Feb 03 2005, 06:05 PM
I see the the chef has blocked me .

Feb 03 2005, 06:06 PM
Not to mention earlier in the thread where he was actually begging for a response!!




<font color="red"> Here are just a few...
</font>
Does anyone have a reply for the Posts that i made??? I want to hear a replay on the posts that i made. Or doesnt anyone have one???

why wont anyone comment on the points that i brought up???

Im still wainting for people to counter the points that i brought up. Will someone do that??? Or is there no counter for the points that i made???

I just want to hear someone back this new rule after what i brought to light.

<font color="red"> Here's a lesson from a real PLAYA:

Pimps don't cry...

especially for attention.
</font>


I think its hillarious that i can make one post and like 10 of you guys will get in a huge uproar over what i had to say. Its seems more like you guys care about what i have to say WAY more then i give a crap what you guys have to say

<font color="red"> Sorry to have to put your overblown head in check...but people are actually discussing this topic...you just keep interjecting your drivel in between posts. </font>

<font color="red">b2da</font>

cgflesner
Feb 03 2005, 09:56 PM
Are you suggesting that we give 1st place in open the same payout as dead last cash?

Where is the incentive?

This would be a worse rule change than the this pros playing Adv rule.

:confused:

xterramatt
Feb 03 2005, 11:03 PM
no, that kis just showing that with added cash, payout is boosted AND more players can cash.

The pay scale would be the same as is currently available, sorry, meant to edit that after posting it, but it's too late now.

justingill
Feb 03 2005, 11:55 PM
well adding more cash to the pro purse requires well, MORE CASH. and more cash requires more players playing open.

letting them jump down doesnt help the 'MORE CASH' factor.

More plastic for me then. too bad. ;)

bruce_brakel
Feb 04 2005, 02:37 AM
well adding more cash to the pro purse requires well, MORE CASH. and more cash requires more players playing open.

letting them jump down doesnt help the 'MORE CASH' factor.

More plastic for me then. too bad. ;)

The terms "added cash" and "adding cash" refer to cash other than the pro entry fees. If 20 pros pay $50 each and the total purse is $1000, there is no "added cash." If the purse for those pros is $1100 there would be $100 added cash.

Added cash comes from two sources: profit on the divisions that are paid out in merch, and donations. Whenever a low rated pro drops down to play in an amateur division the TD has one more player he can make a profit on.

If your TD is running an honest game, the retail value of the amateur payout plus trophies and ctps should at least equal the amateur entry fees. But the TD did not buy those discs at K-Mart at retail. So, by paying the ams 100% at retail he might have 30-50% in profit.

Pros dropping down to play am shrink the pro purse but they do create potential added cash.

Feb 04 2005, 12:32 PM
Look...I play advanced. I am an advanced player that usually finishes down near the bottom of the division.



Sorry to point this out cheaTTer, but 855 wouldn't qualify you as an advanced player.

gnduke
Feb 04 2005, 12:52 PM
Matt,

One point worth considering. Having the divisions below Advanced play only one day each may leave them feeling like second class citizens and less enamored with the idea of tournament play.

I don't know about other places, but these are the fastest growing and largest fields we have here. I wouldn't want to alienate them.

scoop
Feb 04 2005, 01:54 PM
Look...I play advanced. I am an advanced player that usually finishes down near the bottom of the division.



Sorry to point this out cheaTTer, but 855 wouldn't qualify you as an advanced player.



This is a good point. Seriously...in the numerous MA2 events you played, you didn't once finish under the Top 10.

It's obviously your choice to donate at the MA1 level, but you shouldn't feel that you have to...there's no reason you shouldn't feel comfortable dropping down to MA2 (or even MA3) and enjoy competing on a level more commensurate with your ability.

neonnoodle
Feb 04 2005, 02:08 PM
Well, there is one possible reason, you want to play among players that will press you slightly beyond your limit. I haven't actually experienced that choice in a while (16 Years) but I seem to remember chasing around the best players on the course to shoot with them when I first started playing more than casually.

Certainly, if you are becoming frustrated it might not be worth the possible gain.

I, and others I've known, have actually taken months or years off to regain the proper motivation and enjoyment out of competitive disc golf. Let's face it, it isn't for everyone, and knowing whether it is or isn't will make a big difference in your enjoyment of and longevity in the sport of disc golf.

Moderator005
Feb 04 2005, 02:56 PM
Well, there is one possible reason, you want to play among players that will press you slightly beyond your limit. I haven't actually experienced that choice in a while (16 Years) but I seem to remember chasing around the best players on the course to shoot with them when I first started playing more than casually.



So Nick, when you play a round with Climo, Cam Todd, Brinster, Moser, etc. they don't "press you slightly beyond your limit?"

neonnoodle
Feb 05 2005, 01:23 AM
Well, there is one possible reason, you want to play among players that will press you slightly beyond your limit. I haven't actually experienced that choice in a while (16 Years) but I seem to remember chasing around the best players on the course to shoot with them when I first started playing more than casually.



So Nick, when you play a round with Climo, Cam Todd, Brinster, Moser, etc. they don't "press you slightly beyond your limit?"



Yes they do and I thank each one of them for it. It was a great ride. Never beat Cam or Ken in a tournament, but tied Ken for the lead of the first round of the first Japan Open I played in. I believe they all definitely have helped improve my game, even though relative to them I have not had nearly the success, the value is still there. You should give it a try Jeff.

Plankeye
Feb 05 2005, 10:46 AM
I am not getting frustrated from playing advanced.

I am not going to play another INT round either.

I have been playing better as an ADV player than I ever did as a INT.

cgflesner
Feb 05 2005, 11:57 AM
That's the best way to improve your game. That is play in a division with more competition.

When I started playing tournaments I was dominating the Int field then I played in the last am event at Z-boaz in Advanced and one it, and if it was not for that I would not be playing open. But my game has done nothing but got better, and I think it is due to the fact that I hate losing!

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Feb 08 2005, 06:47 PM
??? :confused:

Feb 08 2005, 08:44 PM
I think maybe moderaters cleaned them up

Feb 08 2005, 08:45 PM
I logged on earlier today and everyting was all jumbled and saw some wierd stuff

bruce_brakel
Feb 08 2005, 09:44 PM
Pdga.com crashed. Some accounts got lost. That deletes the posts and messes up the thread page lengths. See the announcement.