I just returned from World�s and I have an issue to share with all of you. This year, there was a �dress code� instituted where all participants must wear a collared shirt with sleeves. Now any of you that know me know that I am a non-conformist rebel but in this instance I conformed. I bought 3 collared shirts for this World�s and wore them. In fact, I was going to support the PDGA by wearing collared shirts at all the tourneys I attend. NO MORE!!! What I found out was that it wasn�t enough. I am one who can not stand anything on my arms when I throw, I feel constricted. So I would pull the sleeves up when throwing and pull them back down when completed. I do however ALWAYS tuck my shirt tail in. In fact, I am basically a neat freak when it comes to my appearance. Every once in a while I would forget to pull one sleeve down but would correct this as soon as I realized. While playing on Walnut Ridge I was approached by one of the marshalls after I had thrown #16 and was told I needed sleeves!! I had forgotten to pull the left sleeve down but was only about 50 ft from the tee box. I pulled it down, confused, because I did have sleeves. My group continued to play and on #3 our flow of play was disrupted by the marshall to now give me a dress code warning. My group tried to explain that I pulled them down (in fact when we were approached my sleeves were down) to no avail. When I tried to speak to the TD, John Licksit, on that course he just copped an attitude and would not listen (big time power trip!!). I spoke with Dave Nezbitt and explained to him what had happened and that I had the 3 players on my card to backup my story. He told me it was a non-issue. Later that day, Dave called me back in to inform me that the TD and 2 marshalls said that I had played the whole round with my sleeves up. That was a complete lie!!! Now, they were able to see me for about 5-6 holes if that much. I decided to just let it go but was then informed by Dave that I was getting a courtesy violation for not telling him the truth, In essence, he called me a liar. He wasn�t interested in talking to the 3 players or anyone else. I was furious!!! I payed a lot of money and time to attend these World�s and support the PDGA and this is how I get treated!!! Apparently though, if you are a top Pro you can do anyting you want. During the Final Nine I observed several players with their shirts tails out. So if any of you out their think there is favortism, you are 100% correct. The PDGA is spending so much time trying to be like ball golf that they have lost sight of what DG is all about. You would think they are on the board of the PGA not PDGA. When an organization is tries to emulate another, they have no identity. That is exactly where we are headed. In my opinion, they are a bunch of whiny, self serving, self centered ego maniacs who are way too busy patting each other on the back to even care about the people in the PDGA. What they need to realize is that we are not golf and never will be. We need our own identity or we will never grow. They keep saying how many active members we have. We would probably have more but they continue to run people off. We have 7000+ active members but 25,000+ members. The PGA at least tries to retain their membership!! Truth is, DG is growing because of you and me, not the PDGA. As long as we continue to introduce mew people to the sport, it will grow in spite of the PDGA. I do have one idea on how to settle disputes. Since they won�t listen, we need an arbitration board to settle disputes with the PDGA. Now this board shouldn�t and can�t be appointed by the PDGA, not if we want them impartial. They should be elected by the membership to represent us since no one else does. I realize what they are trying to do but I think they are going about it the wrong way. I know that some of you out there are going to read this and say �why don�t you run for the board then?�. NO WAY!! I am self employed to avoid the crap you have to deal with in a corporation and this is no different. In closing, I would like to reiterate that we are not the PGA. In fact, the national spelling bee champion (12 yrs old) received $12,000 for winning a spelling bee. This year�s champ won $5300. What is wrong with this picture.

if thats what happened, and it sounds like there's no reason to doubt your story what with the rest of your card confirming it, then i say you got wronged! especially since the tuck in rule was blatantly disregarded.

the idea of an arbitration panel is a good one. hope it happens!

AMEN. yes I also noticed shirts untucked. But ALAS those are the BIG DOGS . The ones the PDGA caters too. WELCOME TO THE PDGA!! Its a GREAT ORG if you are 1000 rated players.

Truth is, DG is growing because of you and me, not the PDGA.



Slight correction: Truth is, DG is growing because of you and me, we ARE the PDGA.

If what you say is 100% correct, and I have no reason to doubt that it is, concerning this incident, then WE need to fix it. Any mechanism that can get to the bottom of such things is a good one (so long as it is US getting it done). WE can do this if WE include the PDGA in US. Railing against the PDGA when it is US, is like cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Have you written to the PDGA Rules Committee? Filed a formal complaint with the PDGA Competition Director? (Yes, I know you spoke with him, but put it in writing to make sure it goes through the full process.)Written to the PDGA Commissioner? Written to your PDGA State Coordinator? Doing all of this makes YOU part of US, and US part of the PDGA.

If I were an official (Marshall) at the event I would have watched you for at least one entire hole to see if this was just a prethrow clothing adjustment or whether you were walking around with your sleeves pulled up over your shoulders with no attempt to fix them once you had thrown. Only after that would I warn you about it. And only after seeing you do the same for an entire different hole would I issue the penalty. This regardless of your claims to be pulling them back down after every throw or what the rest of the group said. Why? Because I would have seen it with my own eyes.

If, I were the course TD and asked you a point blank question about the rules and later found out that you had lied, I would not issue a warning and I would not issue a stroke penalty, I would DQ you immediately from the event.

But this is you and I discussing hypotheticals, please let's include the US, which is the PDGA, in this; since that larger WE is the only way THIS can result in a greater good for all of US.

Nick, I think your keyboard is broken. Seems your caps lock keeps turning on and off for some reason?

That sounds like it was an unpleasant experience, David. With the need for adjudication on calls happening every few moments all day long for five days (900+ players on 11 courses from 7:30 am to 7:30 pm) I am sure that there were a few mistakes made and perhaps your situation was one of those. In that case, I am sorry that your experience was a bad one - although knowing PDGA members Jon Lyksett (head marshal) and Dave Nesbitt (PDGA competition director) to be very sensitive and thoughtful people, I'd have to hear their side of the story as well.

I agree with Nick. Now that things are slowed down, if you remain offended by the situation and feel that you were wronged, as you obviously do, you have an obligation to request a review of the situation and get the wrong righted. There is a process to follow, please contact the office if you need clarification about how to do that: (416) 203-9826.

(There is a reason for that process being private, not public. Just as I am sure that Jon and Dave will not enjoy their positions and perspectives described by an interested party in public, I doubt that you would enjoy their similar comments and perspectives on you being aired in public. If Dave really did say to you and believe at the time that you lied to him, I think that is probably something he'd rather not post here, which of course makes public refutation of your allegations difficult.)

Now for clarification on the comparison of the collared shirt with sleeves versus the tucked-in shirt issue. There is no valid comparison of one with the other as the language is quite specifically and intentionally different.

Section 8.3 Dress Code - http://www.pdgatour.com/handbook.php
-says:

"All players MUST wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required. Women are allowed to wear tasteful, sleeveless collared shirts as designated above."

It also says:

"Players SHOULD tuck in their shirt whenever possible, and may be asked to do so by a Tournament official."

It�s a long way from �must� (collared shirts with sleeves) to �should� (tuck in shirts). I will admit that I was one who did not tuck his shirt in, ever, during play. I am so overweight that I would have been too embarrassed to play in public with that bulge on display. However, if I had been asked to by a marshal, I would have. Luckily, I was not.

Even though most of the players I saw and played with did tuck their shirts in, I am going to ask that we remove the "tucked in" portion of the language for 2005.

It also says:

"Players SHOULD tuck in their shirt whenever possible, and may be asked to do so by a Tournament official."

It�s a long way from �must� (collared shirts with sleeves) to �should� (tuck in shirts).



Terry,

Please describe for us a situation where a player would find that tucking in their shirt would not be "possible". Unless their bottom half is covered by a spandex body suit - I think there is no reasonable example making it "not possible." Using that little semantic gymnastic as justification for selective application of a dress code is (don't think this will come out kindly) LAME!!!!!

Come on people - it's a DRESS CODE.

Sorry to hear Dave got worked over while at least attempting to comply. Not surprised to hear that it did not concern the marshalls as it applied to top players (they are after all - beyond reproach )

Craig, my guess is the should and when possible parts are in there for situations like a shirt that is too short to stay tucked in and tends to pop out of the waistband when you are throwing. I had a couple of guys in my group that started rounds with shirts like that and ended up just leaving them out.

FWIW, you don't need a big gut to have a problem keeping a shirt tucked in. I need an XL shirt to fit across my shoulders, but I have a small waist so, unless I pay to get the shirts tailored, they don't stay tucked in too well (and look like crap, which is why I don't tuck golf shirts in).

I'm not too shocked that there was a 'selective enforcement' issue either. There were a couple of marshalls that had the 'mall police' (or what some would call the 'small genitalia overcompensational') attitude. Luckily, they were few and far between. All the volunteers, spotters, and marshalls that I encountered directly were outstanding.

I encourage all players who had a bad experience with a Marshall to send a specific as possible account to the PDGA Competition Director.

The program can't get better unless WE make it better. Hearsay on the DISCussion Board though entertaining doesn't quite do the same thing.

I trying to imagine nesbitt spending his time gathering this info. Calling the course marshalls and TDs up to find out if Dave has his sleeeves rolled up or calling his playing group to determine the point the sleeves were rolled down. It's priorities way out of balance.

By the way, I heard of one player throwing an absolute fit during warmup in front of a crowd and some dude throwing discs into a vehicle in anger after a round. If true, those public displays should have recieved a dq, but I suspect they are tolerated. Those sleeves however, that's just going too far. :D

It would also seem, based on the wording that Terry pasted above, that the Marshall's and Nez's warnings are bogus to begin with, even if David had lied. There is nothing in the rule that says you can't roll up your sleeves. It says a shirt needs to have them, but not that they can't be rolled up.

I know the dress code for the girl's softball league that I coach is stricter than the PDGA's. No earrings, no backwards hats, etc. But they are allowed to roll up their sleeves (in fact, visit a sporting goods store and you'll see little velcro strips made just to keep them up).

Nick, without a marshall's name it's tough to make a complaint. Since many of us were trying to focus on golf during the round, it's not something that many worried about. I do know a couple of guys that talked to the course TDs and the TDs were very receptive and helpful.

I think we're talking two issues here:

(a) The "should" not "must" is something I am probably wrong on. Luckily, that was my own interpretation, not the PDGAs. (I just looked up the dictionary definition of "should" and I think I was definitely wrong.) :oGlad no one gave me a warning. Maybe I'm a "big dog" because I brought out and gave away 150 nice collared shirts to players. I will definitely vigorously work to remove that tuck-in thing for next year!

(b) I have no knowledge that anything was applied differently against top players versus lower level players. That's not part of what we do. In fact, the second call I made as a marshall earlier this year was against a very top player. It's the top players and the lead card who often face an entire round of observation by a marshal.

Nick, without a marshall's name it's tough to make a complaint.




I'm not too shocked that there was a 'selective enforcement' issue either. There were a couple of marshalls that had the 'mall police' (or what some would call the 'small genitalia overcompensational') attitude. Luckily, they were few and far between. All the volunteers, spotters, and marshalls that I encountered directly were outstanding.



Obviously nothing is too tough for you Dano.

Do I have to explain your inconsistency here?
How about complaining about something for which you have no direct knowledge?

C�mon Dan! You�re better than this!

come on James you can't just throw that info out there without some names? who threw a fit and who was throwing their stuff into their car?? 1000 rated players? come on now

come on James you can't just throw that info out there without some names? who threw a fit and who was throwing their stuff into their car?? 1000 rated players? come on now



Yeah! C'mon, it's been too long since our last McCarthy Witch Hunt on here...

James' comments warrant another discussion. I am firmly on the side of those who believe that the rules by and large apply during play and not necessarily at other times.

Do "the rules" apply while warming up? Do they apply while one is clearly (throwing discs into a car) on a parking lot and not on the course? What about in your car on the way to the course? What about in the host hotel or your friends' house during the weekend of a tournament?

I'm very interested in others' thoughts about this. If they apply at other times outside of the two-minute warning until the card is turned in (and many think so, I don't) then we definitely need to clarify that in the rules themselves.

Perhaps this deserves its own thread?

Why is it again that women players are permitted to wear sleeveless shirts and men aren't?

Seriously. Is it because a bunch of male PDGA officials/rule makers like looking at women's arms more than guy's (can't say that I blame them, but I'll admit my biased preference)? Is it because they mistakenly believe that there are not similar shirts manufactured for men?

It seems like such an arbitrary rule that has only two justifications: 1) the PDGA lifted it completely from the PGA/LPGA handbook (while ignoring the long pants difference) without giving any forethought to its inherent sexism, or 2) uh...it's blatantly sexist and they thought no one would mind? (ok, I couldn't think of two distinct possible reasons...it's just blatant sexism).

If they want to make everyone wear collared shirts with sleeves that 'cover the upper arm to the shoulder joint' I'm fine with that. But not different rules for different genders. And while we're picking nits...what is the upperarm? Is that an imaginary line exactly midway between the shoulder joint and the elbow? Or is it from the elbow up? How about from where the top of the tricep meets the bottom of the rear deltoids?

C�mon Dan! You�re better than this!



C'mon Nick, do you really have to take 2 separate statements out of context from 2 separate posts to try and prove a point, or whatever it is you were trying to prove? Puhleeze. And you can shove your witch hunt b.s. up the old alimentary canal while you're at it.

Terry, thanks for going to bat for us on the tucked in shirt rule. Hopefully you can talk some sense into someone.
As far as when the rules apply and when they don't, I believe the collared shirt rule was supposed to apply at any time you are on the course between registration and awards. That would mean a practice round with an untucked shirt would be grounds for a warning.

... while we're picking nits...what is the upperarm? Is that an imaginary line exactly midway between the shoulder joint and the elbow? Or is it from the elbow up? How about from where the top of the tricep meets the bottom of the rear deltoids?

its at the point that the arm is less than 2 meters from the playing surface. the part of the arm that is 2 meters above the playing surface is in OB territory and therefor not even on the course. since it is not legally on the course, the PDGA rules cannot and do not apply. this is mostly applicable on overhands/tomohawks, etc. since most women are not tall enough to have a normally sleeved part of their arm above the 2 metter mark and therefore exempted, the gender exemption was built into the rules. short men are considered collateral damage. thats the breaks.

good question... glad i could clear this up for ya! :D

Chris, I only know one of the names and Nick is right, there is no need to go down that road again.

Terry, the handbook that contained the language about the dresscode also mentioned that players could face disqualification for misconduct during play or at other sites associated with the tournament. I don't have the language in front of me, but my recollection was that it probably included the courses and parking lots at all times, and also included the tourney hotels. I only brought those incidences up because they are an examples of misplaced priorities (IMO at least) when compared to a shirt sleeve rolled up.

Any way, no slam intended on anyone associated with the tourney. The people of Iowa should be proud. They had an exceptional staff who from my vantage point ran a first class event on some of the best courses I've seen (major props also to the course designers).

No where in the rules does it state that the sleeves must be down at all times.I also agree that I should write these people and will. The problem I have is that it was one persons word against another and he chose sides instead of speaking to all aprties involved. Two words: Arbitration board. I will also let you know it ruined my World's and I thought very carefully about what and how i was going to post this. I did not post this to rant and rave. I believe that we have a genuine problem and addressed it on this board. Remember that WE are the PDGA. As far as bringing it here, he should have investigated before saying I didn't tell him the truth.

come on James you can't just throw that info out there without some names? who threw a fit and who was throwing their stuff into their car?? 1000 rated players? come on now



Okay, I admit it. It was me. I was so upset by my play, that I just had to throw tantrums all week.


(j/k I was well behaved to whole time. :) )

Let's see...I was putting into the trunk of my rental car before the Walnut Ridge round, and then I left the course mad because a no-brainer rules call I made got overturned by the course TD. Maybe the rumour mill has mixed up the order and they are talking about me? :)

I also heard there were "near fisticuffs" during that round for my division, but I never felt that anybody was anywhere near that.

Fisticuffs in OUR division? Now that would be funny, two old guys huffing and puffing while trying to remain standing after throwing a few blows, hands on their knees trying to catch their breath so they could go at it again. :)

I heard about the almost fisticuffs all the way back in Oklahoma. :D

That would have moved some people up a few spots. :D

It sounds like to me David got screwed, and this issue needs to be addressed. And as far as the "tuck rule", the rumor I heard is that it was NOT going to be enforced. I know I never tucked my shirt in and no one said anything to me.

I want the option to wear one of those cute sleeveless numbers the women get to wear! That with Mark's skirt should go over really well. :D

I wouldn't think that they would like it. They should have taken more than 30 seconds to decide this. As far as time concerns, they volunteered and it is part of the job. The biggest problem I have is him questioning my integrity. Understand that I was also taken aback by his position and attitude. I have known Dave for about 5 yrs. I realize that they are busy but does not excuse the behavior. If we want to be taken seriously, then EVERYONE needs to act professionally. Also understand that their side of the story will be biased as I am sure you think mine is. I can give you the names of the players if you would like to hear their side. Also, I do not take kindly to being called a liar and I will not sit by idly while someone does that to me. Also, repeating what someone else said, when is it not possible to tuck in your shirt? I have the same problem as you but have ALWAYS tucked my shirt in whether a tanktop, sleeveless, whatever. I realize it can come out, mine does too. I just retuck it. I am not doing this to cause trouble. I have been a member for 12 yrs and have never even been on this board. I'm doing this because I think there is a problem.

I wouldn't wear a sleeveless collared shirt myself, but...

Under Armour makes a tailored, sleeveless men's shirt with a mock collar. It's designed and constructed for athletes. It wicks moisture better than any cotton or poly-blend shirt you'll ever find, and it looks very professional. If the gals can wear their sleeveless shirts, then I don't know why the guys couldn't wear these.

Because most of us would look like over weight women in spandex. :o

I think James has a very valid point. Are we to assume that as soon as the round is over we can take our shirts off, pop open a cold one, fire one up, etc. Shouldn't we be ambassadors to the sport and watch our behavior AT ALL TIMES at a tournament??

Because most of us would look like over weight women in spandex. :o



O.K., so now I know why they want the men to wear sleeved shirts, that image is just too ugly. I envision nightmares for at least a week.

Amen, James!!!! I have only been to the last 5 World's but when you take everything into consideration, ie. courses, coordination, people involved (most), extra curricular activities, etc. this was absolutely the best World's I have ever attended. Now if I would have just been left alone to play it would have been perfect. But that had nothing to do with the hosts. Jay Reading and crew did a first class job. Thanks alot and do it again real soon.

no cut off shirts for the men because of under arm hair. now if you shave your under arms you are okay. :)

no witch hunt James I am pretty sure you are talking about a 1000 rated player. I 've seen them get away with things that the lower rated player would be DQ'd for,. :(

I'm with Terry on the tucked in shirts. Wore Hawaiian shirts the entire tournament - had a blast.

I'm with David on the Official ego's in attendance. Ran into one myself. Another "should" vs "must" issue. He walked away mumbling "it should say must"...

I'm with David on the PGA wanna bees. Appears that way from my viewpoint, looking up, from way down in the grassroots.

Kudos to Iowa disc golf. They are sooo lucky to have so many good courses.

I saw numerous folks with untucked shirts. No biggie. Also saw the attitudes David was speaking of. For the most part, though, this event was fantastic. :p rwc3523

I wasn't going to weigh in on this topic but the more I think about it the more I can't resist.

Let me make sure I understand the issues correctly.

First, Dave Nesbitt, Jon Lyksett, and two marshals all got together and decided arbitrarily to punish David Vaughan because he accidentally left his shirtsleeve up on one hole for about 50 feet of the hole. Dave Nesbitt compounded this punishment, thus adding insult to injury, by giving David a courtesy violation when he stood up for himself and said he had only left his sleeve up for this one hole (i.e. Dave said he lied about it).

Second, David Vaughan thought carefully about posting this issue because he wanted this unjust situation addressed and didn't like being called a liar especially when the BOD, all TDs in the country, and all the marshals have implemented a plan that unfairly protects the antics and misbehaviors of the elite players.

Third, not to reiterate the point, well, actually, to reiterate the point, the BOD has implemented a plan (either purposefully, or unintentionally) that allows highly ranked players more rights and privileges than the lower ranked players within the organization.

Fourth, the BOD are a bunch of ego-centric, self-serving maniacs (yes I know I reworded this slightly, mainly because this places them in a much better light than the original post :D) and are driving the organization to be the same in their efforts to try and remake us into the PGA.

Funny, I thought they were a level headed group of businessmen who volunteer 1000s of hours of their personal time to run an organization that provides them with almost no monetary support (I say almost because I don't really know - but I suspect it is 0). I also thought they were acting on a membership directive to bring in more funding and backing. Since it is a proven axiom that sponsors require a professional demeanor, i.e. good value, for their sponsorship dollars, it should surprise no one that part of the BOD�s implementation of our directive is to make us look and act more professionally.

I think the idea that three marshals (or two and one TD) and our Competition Director getting together to punish one player suggests they have more time to waste than they actually do. It also suggests a malicious spirit that I have never seen in my personal interactions with Dave and in what I have seen posted on this site.

Honestly, when I want an issue resolved, I go to the source. I don't go to the public to whine (Oh wait, its the rest of the membership who are whining) about it until after I have gotten no satisfaction from official channels. This is what's known as taking your case to the public. I've never really admired those who use it but I have to admit, its effective.

The best one is the idea that the organization protects elite players. This denies the fact that more severe punishments have been handed down per elite player than per non-elite player by the PDGA (take a look). Indeed, if their goal is to clean up our image, it seems pretty fruitless to punish the small players who rarely if ever get noticed by anyone, than to punish the elite troublemakers out of the game. Lets be frank, would a sponsor notice if one or two 1000 rated players were gone? This idea also implies a huge cabal of people who are implementing this plan, something I find hard to believe. Even if you insist that it is somehow subconsciously being implemented, you are denying the fact that a marshal in the PDGA isn't likely to be impressed with one of our "elite players." Remember, our elite players are only elite to us. They don't really wield any power, monetarily or with the public. Furthermore, most of the BOD members are independent businessmen (independent of the PDGA) with no vested interest in protecting these guys. Most of them have significant stature, i.e. significant in relation to our "elite players." Why would they feel compelled to protect these guys?

Conclusions: The basic premises of Mr. Vaughan's arguments are illogical. They don't fit the characteristics of the sport, the BOD or the people involved. Isn't it more likely that Mr. Vaughan accidentally left his sleeves up more than he thought he did? While such would be unintentional, it is still against the rules, and in my opinion, a rather small infraction but nonetheless - real.

Well, Lyle, you should have resisted.

First, you weren't there, nor were you even close, so you can't really have much of a clue what went on.

Second, having the sleeves of one's collared shirt rolled up is not against the rules.

Third, please be careful getting down off your high horse, it's a dangerous fall.

Because most of us would look like over weight women in spandex. :o



Newsflash: If you look overweight in a sleeveless shirt, you are going to look overweight in a short-sleeved one too. There is no rule saying women have to have shaved armpits in order to go sleeveless (besides that wouldn't need to be gender specific). Underarm hair is a natural phenomenon and if you have a problem with it then we may as well ban facial hair too.

I'd much prefer to see the dress code relaxed to require clothing that isn't cut off. People for the most part understand that we are trying to improve the popularity of our sport and are likely to dress in clean clothes in which they are comfortable. Those who don't will only underscore those that do.

How the officials decided to punish someone for rolling up their sleeves (which is not forbiden by the rules) while letting un-tucked shirts go (the rules clearly say shirts should be tucked) is beyond me. Say it ain't so.

I wouldn't think that they would like it. They should have taken more than 30 seconds to decide this. As far as time concerns, they volunteered and it is part of the job. The biggest problem I have is him questioning my integrity. Understand that I was also taken aback by his position and attitude. I have known Dave for about 5 yrs. I realize that they are busy but does not excuse the behavior. If we want to be taken seriously, then EVERYONE needs to act professionally. Also understand that their side of the story will be biased as I am sure you think mine is. I can give you the names of the players if you would like to hear their side. Also, I do not take kindly to being called a liar and I will not sit by idly while someone does that to me. Also, repeating what someone else said, when is it not possible to tuck in your shirt? I have the same problem as you but have ALWAYS tucked my shirt in whether a tank top, sleeveless, whatever. I realize it can come out, mine does too. I just retuck it. I am not doing this to cause trouble. I have been a member for 12 yrs and have never even been on this board. I'm doing this because I think there is a problem.



David, I understand your intention and it is a good one. Unfortunately you are getting exactly NOTHING done by this. If you are trying to "clear your good name" in the arena of public opinion, in my opinion, you are not. If you are trying to get it right, in my opinion, you are not. If you are trying to fix this so that it doesn't happen again, in my opinion, you are not.

This board has neither the capacity nor the purpose of dealing with such issues. Yes, we can chat about it, but nothing beyond the names dropped and the innuendos thrown out like raw meat to the tigers really gets accomplished. Neither of which do anyone any good (and before all you STAR readers come back with, "But we want to know about this stuff.", put a sock in it. You aren't hearing about it, you are getting nothing but hearsay and half-truths no matter how carefully one person tries to paint a picture it is certainly incomplete, and I am not calling you a liar David; it simply is the nature of reality that different folks see the same event in more than one way.)

So what is happening here? Are we getting to the bottom of this? Have all sides been heard from? Is this event the place to hear them?

My guess is that you, David, were and are very perturbed about what you consider an affront to your integrity. You felt, as you have stated, that you had to speak out about it here, in the public forum. You felt that that was the only way you could clear your good name. For me, having seen this behavior before, I have to tell you in all honesty, that it raises more doubts concerning your motivations and your claims because of this path you have chosen.

Please answer this question honestly David:

Do you really believe, or expect us to believe, that these officials and td really had it in for you? That they were not simply trying to do �their job� (as you put it)?

There is a proper way to go about clearing your name and this is not it. Least not for the people with enough integrity to be interested in the truth in the first place. This friend is a 100% USDA Kangaroo Court.

Additional correction. DG is growing because of you and I .

I think this matter should be taken through the channels following the existing procedure. Give the system a chance. Even though the first round (going to the Dir. of Comp.) did not give you the result you wanted, trust in the system at least until the point where you have done all you can do. Just like in district court where you get some numbskull judge who can't understand the issues, you take it up to circuit court and so on. If the supreme court fails you, then you go out and hire a hitman and take care of it privately (just kidding on that one!).

Seriously though. Take it all the way up through the process.

And thank you Terry, the voice/pirate of reason. The shirt tucking rule is not written well enough to be enforced and should be eliminated. The only time it is not possible to tuck your shirt in is if your shirt is too small or if you have no upper limbs, in which case you would not be playing golf. I think that this would be a good point to concede to those in the organization who don't even want to wear collared shirts in the first place.

And I agree that there is no prohibition on pulling your sleeves up. They should write that in if that's what they want. Based on that alone, I would think there is a strong case for having this thing turn your way.

Well, Dan, I WAS there and I DO have a clue about what was going on. I was the Marshal assigned to Walnut Ridge that day, not the TD. Bill (Old Man) and Mary Ann Wallis were the course co-TD's all week.

I personally observed a player with BOTH sleeves rolled up walking on the fairway of #13 at Walnut Ridge. (By rolled up, I mean rolled to the point where the sleeves were non-existant, ie, tanktop) I later saw the same player walking from #15 to the tee at #16 with BOTH sleeves rolled up. I asked the course co-TD (Mary Ann) to give the player a "reminder" that the dress code (in my opinion) requires the sleeves to COVER the upper arm. She did so. This was not an official warning, but an informational request for the player to comply with the dress code.

Shortly thereafter, the same player was observed with his sleeves rolled up again. At this time, the co-TD gave the player a warning.

The player walked past me, within 10 feet, two holes later and said nothing to me about the warning or the circumstances. He did come to me after the round and asked where the rules stated that the arms had to be covered and I showed him the section of the player's handbook. His only comment was "OK, Fine."

When I was at the tournament scoring office later that day, Dave Nesbitt told me that the player (David Vaughn) had come in and told him that he only rolled his sleeve (note: sleeve) up to throw and immediately rolled it back down. This is not the case. I personally saw BOTH sleeves rolled up at two different locations and would surmise that they were BOTH rolled up during the intervening holes. The course TD's both saw Mr. Vaughn with his sleeves rolled up after the initial "reminder" was given. I stated such to Dave Nesbitt and that I was a bit concerned that he had rescinded the warning without speaking to me or the course TD's about the circumstances. He then decided to reinstate the warning and to speak with Mr. Vaughn about the discrepancy. At that point I was satisfied with the outcome and continued on with my duties. What happened after that between Nesbitt and Vaughn is out of my hands.

Accusations that there was "power tripping" or that I "copped an attitude" are patently false. It was my suggestion that Mr. Vaughn be given a "reminder" in the first place, which he decided to ignore. I really don't care whether or not he rolls his sleeve up to throw. That is entirely acceptable. What is unacceptable is his disregard for the rule and the application of it. It is also unacceptable for him to shade the truth when he relates the story.

There will probably be substantial changes to the dress code for the next season, with player comfort and professional appearance meeting somewhere in the middle. But for Worlds and for the rest of this playing season the dress code that has been published all year was/is in effect and was/will be enforced.

I'm entirely comfortable with the decision that I made in this case. I went out of my way to have a "reminder" issued, rather than go to a warning immediately. I did this because it was obvious that, even with all the discussion in the weeks leading to the tournament, there were many players that were ignorant of the dress code. We gave Mr. Vaughn the benefit of the doubt on this one and he refused to comply, thus the warning. It could have remained at that.

I am very amused by the allegations that the "elite" players received preferential treatment from the Marshals and other officials. The "elite" players (and the vast majority of the rest of the competitors at Worlds) were very complementary of the Marshals program and thanked us for helping them to stay on their game. There were several times that I had to make rulings that affected players adversely and even though they were not happy with the situation they found themselves in, they did, without exception say "Thank you" after the ruling was made and play resumed. There were a small minority of players (none that I would call "elite") that went out of their way to challenge rules and fudge play whenever they could. Most times the excuses were laughable, if not downright pitiful.

900+ players on 11 courses over 6 days with only a handful of controversial issues says to me that the greater part of players know the rules, follow the rules, and call the rules. We are not perfect, by any means, and some things that took place will help us get better at what we do.

Jon Lyksett
Chief Marshall
2004 PDGA World Championships

Nick, wouldn't it be natural for someone who felt slighted by official channels to turn to unofficial ones for support? . They are likely to get feedback about what occurred from several perspectives. If their complaints are misgiven, others may be able to help them see why. Also, by bringing the issue here, one may get excellent advice such as you gave -- to file a formal written complaint with the PDGA.

This message board is one of the few ways to talk to the membership unless you are a PDGA official or Rick R. (okay, only a fraction of the membership reads this board, but still...)

David I appreciate your bringing this issue here. It underscores the need for a better thought out and enunciated dress code policy. It warns players and officials about the disservice inconsistent rule enforcement entails.

It almost sounds too incredible to be true. Are you sure you're not pulling our leg?

Jon, how many times did you observe players that did not have their shirts tucked, and did you then make: "an informational request for the player to comply with the dress code"?

Additional correction. DG is growing because of you and I.



Uh ... "because you and me" is correct; "because of you and I" is bad grammar.

Jon, how many times did you observe players that did not have their shirts tucked, and did you then make: "an informational request for the player to comply with the dress code"?



I'm not speaking for Jon, but I will say that I was quite relieved when I read the dress code reminder on the door of the registration room. It stated that collared shirts must be worn at all times and the sleeve thing yadda yadda, but made NO MENTION of tucking in or that the tuck in "should" rule would be enforced.

Great Worlds!

Thanks to all who volunteered their time!

Thank you. My life would have been over if I had made a grammatical error...

I'm happy to hear they allowed players to not tuck in their shirts by selectively applying the dress code rules. Imo, the dress code needs to drop the tuck rule and even the collar rule. But, it seems to me that David had a short-sleeved collared shirt on, so I don't understand why it became an issue. What in the wording of the rule suggests you can't roll up one or both sleeves?

on a lighter note: how many posts do I need to go from chicken winger to hyzer tosser?

Additional correction. DG is growing because of you and I .



Wrong, Mike. DG is growing because of me, not because of I.

Rob,

Yes, certainly there is a place on this board for discussion of issues. This however, in my opinion, does not fall into that category. It has strayed into the area of hearsay, half-truths and partial pictures predicated on the wrongdoings of named people. In other words it is a bunch of malarkey that no good can come from.

David is not a bad guy, I don�t know him personally, but I will say that his actions here are mistaken (and harmful). We all need to follow the process that is open to us as far as we can. That is the only way to see:

A: If it works.
B: What needs to be fixed if it doesn�t.
C: That the greater good of �OUR� association is kept squarely and clearly as the guiding principle for our efforts. (If it is not the guiding principle, then I have no time or patience to waste arguing with someone whose primary purpose is to damage the association for which I serve and which provides incalculable benefits to my friends and me.

Now there is a method by which this topic could have been meaningfully and usefully engaged here, and we all could have given our input and opinions (in concert with �C:�). That would be to describe the incident in general terms, and ask for guidance. This still would not have accomplished �A:� and �B:� however.

Now with Jon�s account we have a somewhat more complete partial picture; but we will never be able to approach a complete picture no matter how many folks give us their side. It simply is beyond the capacity of this gathering to provide such a picture, and even if we could what real good will it accomplish? (Publically make David a confirmed liar!?! Or DN? Or Jon? What good does any of that do when the goal is to do A, B and C?) This is exactly why we do not hold court, fact-finding missions, or even committees in open forums; they just are not appropriate to the goals.

This is just wrong.

The PDGA should launch a PDGA Disciplinary Committee investigation to find out exactly what happened.

If it is found that the warning was given inappropriately; or that the ruling was mishandled in any way shape or form, the PDGA should issue a public apology to David and those others involved and vow to educate Marshalls and Officials as to the correct way to enforce this rule.

If it is found that the warning and ruling was properly handled and that David actually lied to the PDGA Marshall and/or TD, then some suspension is in order. Dishonesty is a major major issue in a sport where self-refereeing is so integral to competitive disc golf. Whether you construct a theory upon which you believe the rule is unjust or not, lying to players in your group, an official, a marshall or a TD can and should not be tolerated by ANYONE in the PDGA.

Nick

Nick, there is also the possibility that David was unrolling his shirt sleeves after throws and that in the intense focus of playing in Worlds (alas, I can only imagine that), there were times when he unconsciously forgot to do so. When being called on it he might naturally insist he had been unrolling his sleeves after throwing. He wouldn't be lying. But to an observer, that saw him with the sleeve up in between shots -- a hasty hearing might conclude he was intentionally lying.

As you point out -- hearsay and finger-pointing gets messy and is unlikely to lead to resolution. So maybe we should bring it back to your format.

The dress code appears to have been enforced inconsistently. The rule that players should tuck in their shirts was allowed to slide. I like that.

A player who at times rolled up his sleeve to enable ease and comfort of arm movement during throws was told he was breaking the dress code rules.

Does the dress code actually say sleeves can't be rolled up?

how silly, in this day and age.. man, only if we could watch stance violations as close as sleeves. Will hair regulations be next on the list? Seems we have enough rules that aren't followed.. ofcourse everyone new about the silly rules when they signed up or should have.

I'd like to engage in such a useful discussion Rob, unfortunately that is no longer possible.

And for the record I am not saying that David was lying. I don't know if he was or wasn't. It really is none of my business, and I am not likely to form an informed opinion based on the tidbits of innuendo splashed here and there on this board.

This is a matter for the PDGA Disciplinary Committee now. It always has been actually.

Okay Nick, I pretty much agree with you now, and will have to look to lose the title of "chicken winger" and gain the more esteemed "hyzer tosser" title elsewhere :D

What in the wording of the rule suggests you can't roll up one or both sleeves?



I've only quoted this a half dozen times before, but here goes again...

"...with sleeves covering the upper arm..."

Covering the upper arm is not achieved by rolling up the sleeves. Or put another way, there were sleeves, but they were rolled up and didn't cover the upper arm. That was my interpretation at the time and it still stands.

And I've asked for a definition of "upper arm", John. But you can't provide one, because the PDGA bible doesn't define it. But I'll give you the anatomically-correct breakdown.

The arm is commonly known and referred to as the "upper limb" in most Anatomy/Physiology texts. The upper limb (heretofore known as "the arm") is composed of three chained mechanisms: the shoulder girdle, the elbow, and the wrist.

Considering bones in pairs, seven joints may be distinguished. The upper-most of these joints is the sterno-clavicular joint, which articulates the clavicle by its proximal end onto the sternum. So, based on this widely accepted definition of 'the arm', it's safe to say that this joint would be considered part of the 'upper arm'.

Accordingly, if one were to go by the letter of the rule book, then a shirt that covered the sterno-clavicular joint would be in compliance with the "covers upper arm" stipulation of the rule book.

John, what would you have done had the player in question rebuked your 'warning' with the definition of the rule I just provided? Could you have refuted it?

So, do you have any evidence to the contrary that you might have ruled incorrectly on this one? Because, using my definition of the rule book (not an interpretation, mind you, but an actual definition), The Player would have been in compliance if even a portion of the sterno-clavicular joint was covered. Can you say with any degree of certainty that the sterno-clavicular joint was uncovered in its entirety? Could you point out the sterno-clavicular joint if I gave you a map of the human body?

By the way, I'm available (for a nominal fee of course) to rewrite the entire PDGA rule book to eliminate any other ambiguities in rules (of which I've found hundreds).

John...this is not a personal attack on you, as I believe that you made your decisions in this matter with good intentions and in all perceived fairness. My aim is to play devil's advocate in my desire to affect positive change in the dress code for PDGA tournaments.

Along those lines, I am curious to know why a clearly written rule� one that has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum prior to the tournament�was selectively and consistently not inforced...but a very ambiguous and singular rule was?

That's funny. Thanks!

I think I burned my clavicular thingy on a sterno stove once. :cool:

By the way, I'm available (for a nominal fee of course) to rewrite the entire PDGA rule book to eliminate any other ambiguities in rules (of which I've found hundreds).



If you can name 100 ambiguities in our rules I will send you a 2005 Pro Worlds CE Mini. They can not be multiples of the same ambiguity either.

Certainly a valid interpretation Jon. But I read that as a description of the type of shirt one must wear, not the manner in which it is to be worn. As I said earlier, if the shirt is to be worn a certain way, the rule should say so. I note that the rule does mention tucking the shirt in and does not mention keeping the sleeves rolled down.

In any event, hats off and kudos to you for being a Marshall. I worked the 2000 Pro-Am Worlds and can relate to the workload.

Could we get the full rules for dress code posted here please. Not to discuss how it applys to David and Jon, but to how it applys to participants at PDGA events.

I'm guessing it doesn't say that that the shirt needs to be opeque either...

now thats a nasty visual :(

One Person, One Vote* (*may not apply in some states)





That's HILARIOUS!!

Play Southern Nationals.....PDGA is (imo) the NFL........
No Fun League /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Second, having the sleeves of one's collared shirt rolled up is not against the rules.




I thought that the NT rules stated that you must have your upper arms covered. To me that means that you cannot roll up, push up or cut off your sleeves.

I thought that the NT rules stated that you must have your upper arms covered.

It does: http://www.pdgatour.com/handbook.php#_Toc63670311

Play Southern Nationals.....PDGA is (imo) the NFL........No Fun League /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



I had no idea they were even competing organizations. If they are the SN are a joke, if not the SN is awesome.

I doubt the organizers of SN want to go head to head with the PDGA, that would be, well, stupid.

All players must wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required.



Anyone seeing room for interpretation on rolled up sleeves above the shoulder, might try similarly pulling their shirts neck down around them to their belly button accordingly.

It would take intent to misunderstand this to come to either of those conclusions.

Or maybe we need to write up entirely separate rules and code of conduct for pains in the arses as well...?

Well, Lyle, you should have resisted.

First, you weren't there, nor were you even close, so you can't really have much of a clue what went on.

Second, having the sleeves of one's collared shirt rolled up is not against the rules.

Third, please be careful getting down off your high horse, it's a dangerous fall.



Gee Dan,

I'm sorry I offended you. You're right, falling off that high horse is indeed painful... :D

I have a special place in my heart for that "High Horse" comment.

It's like saying,"How dare you believe in what you say!?! The nerve!"

Rooster,

Since you are a technical writer (according to your profile) and I am an educator and rehabilitation specialist, we both have cause to be familiar with anatomy and physiology. Yes, I can point out the sterno-clavicular joint on an anatomical map. Could you point it out, before you so cleverly devised this attack on my interpretation of the rule?

I know that technical writers are wizards at digesting unfamiliar material and regurgitating it, then moving on to some other esoteric subject for their next treatise. One of the best technical writers I know once wrote manuals for Yamaha synthesizers after completing a two year stint with Black and Decker, crafting manuals for food processors! She now writes technical documents for the GE division that makes X-ray equipment. Is she a musician, a chef, or a radiologist? No. She is a highly skilled wordsmith, as I am sure you are.

But that is not the point here.

Rules are and should be written so lay persons can reasonably understand them. The arm (also known as the upper extremity and defined as such by 'Gray's Anatomy,' which is probably the most comprehensive and widely used anatomy reference) is commonly understood to be divided into three parts: the hand, the forearm, and the upper arm. Ask a dozen people to touch their upper arm and I bet all of them indicate the area from the elbow to the shoulder.

Your attempt to more intricately define the upper arm according to anatomical rendering may be a nice exercise in intellectual banter, but it hardly meets the needs of the everyday player. Will you next wish to define every possible supporting point in anatomical terms? Will every PDGA official be required to pass an A/P exam in order be qualified to determine if a player placed the proper joint behind his mini? I doubt it. When you are out playing in a tournament with the current rules, do you pack along an anatomy text and a wireless computer with WestLaw? I would think not. You apply common knowledge and common sense to make a ruling and then play on.

I'm sure there are lots of ambiguities to be found in the rules. I'm sure we will work our way through them. And in most cases, common knowledge (or common sense) will win out over detailed, technical, or even anatomical definition. In this case, the rule states that the shirt will have sleeves covering the upper arm. And although the sleeves were attached to the shirt, the player's upper arm, as commonly understood, was not covered. Nothing ambiguous about that, at least not in my mind, nor the minds of all the players who kept their sleeves down and covering their upper arms, as stated in the rules.

I think your attempt at "anatomical definition" was well intended and well thought out. The problem is that it is incomprehensible to most of our membership. Is that how the rules should be, or should they hinge on common knowledge? It was also an utter waste in the context of this issue, since David Vaughn never argued that he didn't, at some time, roll his sleeves up. The issue was that he didn't put them back down. There was no discussion about the definition of the rule, just the application. I called it as I saw it. He disagreed. If he hadn't been disingenuous with Nesbitt, it would have ended there.

I'll address the tuck-in rule in another post.

If he hadn't been disingenuous with Nesbitt, it would have ended there.



Ouch! See where this is getting us?

Nowhere and fast.

Dang, John, that was a better response than was my initial inquiry. And I actually completely agree with you and your interpretation.

I think that a logical interpretation of the rule would be that all shirts (worn by men) must have sleeves that cover at least their shoulder, and probably falls over part of the upper arm (bicep and tricep area).

My real nit to pick is one that nobody else wants to address seriously: why are the men not allowed to wear sleeveless shirts and the women are?

My real nit to pick is one that nobody else wants to address seriously: why are the men not allowed to wear sleeveless shirts and the women are?



My guess? Tradition. And the fact that women generally have purtier arms than men.

An informal survey of half a dozen pro women at Worlds told me that they wouldn't mind going to short sleeved shirts if 'equality' were an issue.

PS: to be really technical, Rooster....it's Jon, not John. :D:D:D

Nice come back. The problem is that it is a technical response based on anatomy and has nothing to do with common sense or the general understanding by the body of the PDGA. I run into this in business all the time. If you conduct your business in a certain way, and then you do something contrary to that and say, well, the law doesn't say we couldn't do that, the judge says, "your previous actions imply that you understood the law to be that sleeves down off the shoulder and over the biceps is compliant with the law. Because your actions and the actions of the entire PDGA body are consistent with that interpretation, I have to assume you were knowingly in violation of the law."

So, your definition is correct but it is obvious that Mr. Vaughan knew differently.

On a different note, I agree with you, I prefer to wear a shirt that is sleeveless. Especially since I sweat like a pig in Houston's heat. Therefore, if you can get this changed (and from what Jon said it sounds as if that is in the works) more power to you!


And I've asked for a definition of "upper arm", John. But you can't provide one, because the PDGA bible doesn't define it. But I'll give you the anatomically-correct breakdown.

The arm is commonly known and referred to as the "upper limb" in most Anatomy/Physiology texts. The upper limb (heretofore known as "the arm") is composed of three chained mechanisms: the shoulder girdle, the elbow, and the wrist.

Considering bones in pairs, seven joints may be distinguished. The upper-most of these joints is the sterno-clavicular joint, which articulates the clavicle by its proximal end onto the sternum. So, based on this widely accepted definition of 'the arm', it's safe to say that this joint would be considered part of the 'upper arm'.

Accordingly, if one were to go by the letter of the rule book, then a shirt that covered the sterno-clavicular joint would be in compliance with the "covers upper arm" stipulation of the rule book.

John, what would you have done had the player in question rebuked your 'warning' with the definition of the rule I just provided? Could you have refuted it?

So, do you have any evidence to the contrary that you might have ruled incorrectly on this one? Because, using my definition of the rule book (not an interpretation, mind you, but an actual definition), The Player would have been in compliance if even a portion of the sterno-clavicular joint was covered. Can you say with any degree of certainty that the sterno-clavicular joint was uncovered in its entirety? Could you point out the sterno-clavicular joint if I gave you a map of the human body?

By the way, I'm available (for a nominal fee of course) to rewrite the entire PDGA rule book to eliminate any other ambiguities in rules (of which I've found hundreds).

John...this is not a personal attack on you, as I believe that you made your decisions in this matter with good intentions and in all perceived fairness. My aim is to play devil's advocate in my desire to affect positive change in the dress code for PDGA tournaments.

Along those lines, I am curious to know why a clearly written rule� one that has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum prior to the tournament�was selectively and consistently not inforced...but a very ambiguous and singular rule was?

David's "upper arm" is starting to remind me of Janet's nipple. Much ado about nuthin of importance. However, from a process point of view, Nesbitt and all subsequent decisionmakers should talk to ALL parties/witnesses/rule interpreters before making a decision. It at least gives the apperance of impartiality.

There is nothing worse than starting a reply, and then after posting finding out that someone has already covered the same ground and done it about 10X better than you did. Sorry for the redundancy Rooster.

And after all, this topic wouldn't exist if we weren't worried about appearances. :D

On a different note, I agree with you, I prefer to wear a shirt that is sleeveless. Especially since I sweat like a pig in Houston's heat. Therefore, if you can get this changed (and from what Jon said it sounds as if that is in the works) more power to you!




Now, now....I didn't give specifics. I just said that the dress code will probably be revisited to try and find a middle line between professional appearance and player comfort. And I am sure that whatever emerges will make some players happy and be a source of consternation (and PDGA Board bashing on here) for others.

We do our best. We are volunteers. We love this sport as much as you.

Jon,

I am glad to see that you understand the part of your volunteer job related to providing fodder for the message board posters to feed upon.

Keep at it and always remember, If no one is complaining you aren't getting anything done, it's only when everyone is complaining that you need to worry.

O.K., so it was wishful thinking.

'with sleeves covering the upper arm' could also be meant to indicate what most of us call a 'short sleeved shirt', as opposed to 'with sleeves covering the entire arm', or what we'd call a 'long sleeved shirt'.

In other words, it still can reasonably be argued that rolling up the sleeves of a shirt that has 'sleeves covering the upper arm' is not forbidden, based on one's interpretation of the rules, or guidelines, as it were.

'with sleeves covering the upper arm' could also be meant to indicate what most of us call a 'short sleeved shirt', as opposed to 'with sleeves covering the entire arm', or what we'd call a 'long sleeved shirt'.

In other words, it still can reasonably be argued that rolling up the sleeves of a shirt that has 'sleeves covering the upper arm' is not forbidden, based on one's interpretation of the rules, or guidelines, as it were.



It's a shaky argument at best because your sleeves would no longer be covering the upper arm. While it describes the kind of shirt to be worn, I also think it describes the way the shirt should be worn.

i think what dan means is that "'with sleeves covering the upper arm' " is in common language equivalent to " with sleeves that cover the upper arm". the latter does not imply that those sleeves must actually cover the upper arm, only that they can. in this understandable interpretation, rolling up the sleeves is not a violation, because the player was wearing sleeves that could cover the upper arm.

actual wording: "with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required"

a) what is an "arm-to-shoulder" joint? i guess that can only mean the shoulder socket?

b) "the" implies one, but "sleeves" imply more than one. would a shirt that has multiple left sleeves but zero right sleeves be ok? as long as it was well-tailored?

actual wording: "Bare midriffs for men or women will not be allowed on the course".

hmmm... An untucked shirt (which apparently was ok, do to the "should" clause) is certain to leave the midriff bare at some point in the throw. while "should" may allow players to escape the wrath for an untucked shirt, this clause is unambiguous in its denial of a bare belly at any point.

actual wording: "This dress code will be in effect from time of registration to the completion of awards at each event, including all tournament rounds and on-site practice".

ok, "including" does NOT mean "limited to". in fact it implies "but not limited to".

therefore two words: BED CHECK! there shalt be no bare midriffs while sleeping!


nick, i think there are prolly 100 ambiguities in the dress code alone :D

Why not use the NBA as a guide, they are sweaty men without sleeves, BUT they are some of the highest paid atheletes in the world. They represent the values (modest backgrounds) of DGers more than the PGA country club snobs. Sleeves get REAL that is not what our sport needs to grow, we are atheletes that could be restricted by the garment. Track Atheletes no sleeves, Swimmers no sleeves, Gymnast no sleeves, I could go on & on....

AAAARRRRRUUUUGGGGHHHHH

Down with COUNTRY CLUB SNOBS up with normal everyday AMERICANS, where is the ACLU when you need them! Maybe that should be my ELECTION SLOGAN for the BOD....

It's a shaky argument at best because your sleeves would no longer be covering the upper arm. While it describes the kind of shirt to be worn, I also think it describes the way the shirt should be worn.



Jon, that's the point. You think that, but other people feel otherwise. See up the thread for my point about girls' softball uniforms and the velcro straps that are made to keep the sleeves up.

I still find it hard to believe that someone received a warning for rolling their sleeves up while playing disc golf! That simply amazes me.

I wore a tucked in collared shirt to everything except the flymart and the pool, and it was absolutely no problem at all. I don't know what the big deal is. If you are big guy squeezing into a size M, yeah maybe those sleeves could be a pain. But come on, now. It's just a freaking shirt. I though it looked pretty nice to see everybody in collared shirts at all the courses instead of shredded Metallica and Marley tees.

The only reason I didn't wear a collar to the flymart is I wanted to parade aroun in my "I don't care how I shoot as long as I beat Atwood" teeshirt. :)

Ouch! See where this is getting us

HOw did I get in this :) Okay can't show my upper arm than get rid of SMOKING CIGS!!

It's a shaky argument at best because your sleeves would no longer be covering the upper arm. While it describes the kind of shirt to be worn, I also think it describes the way the shirt should be worn.



Jon, that's the point. You think that, but other people feel otherwise. See up the thread for my point about girls' softball uniforms and the velcro straps that are made to keep the sleeves up.

I still find it hard to believe that someone received a warning for rolling their sleeves up while playing disc golf! That simply amazes me.



I agree that what is my reasonable interpretation might not be yours. I think we should have a rule that doesn't have room for interpretation. Anyone who understands English should be able to read it and understand it. I don't personally like the current dress code, but I agreed to uphold it at Worlds as a Worlds TD. You might care to know that all the TDs, Jon, Nez and others talked about the dress code for about an hour at the Worlds TD meeting. It was decided then that for this Worlds tucking in would not be enforced unless someone was wearing a combination of long shirt/short shorts that made it look like he might not be wearing shorts at all--or that the he in question was Jaime Mosier. That's why a person was not abusing the rules by not tucking in, because the TDs and Officials had a particular criteria that they were looking to enforce with the tuck in option.

To me it is clear that the "upper arm" needs to be covered and I consider the upper arm to be the portion of the arm normally covered by short sleeves. But I also completely support anyone appeal a decision that he or she thinks was unfair.

I had no idea they were even competing organizations. If they are the SN are a joke, if not the SN is awesome.

I doubt the organizers of SN want to go head to head with the PDGA, that would be, well, stupid.



That was really uncalled for, Nick. :mad:I think what the Girlymon meant was that the SN is a bit more laid back where clothing is concerned.

FYI, ALL SN events are played by PDGA rules. The SN is NOT trying to compete with the PDGA. The SN is a successful 90-event tour culminating in its own amateur (not by your standards I'm sure) and pro championships. We benefit from added cash that comes from the players and goes back to those who attend the championships.

There is nothing "stupid" about our tour. I'm not pitting one against the other because it's comparing apples to oranges. I support them both. Played the Am Worlds and on to SN Am championships this weekend.

Chill. russ3523
:cool:

I still find it hard to believe that someone received a warning for rolling their sleeves up while playing disc golf! That simply amazes me.



it is pretty sad. didn't officials have better things to do? maybe the rule zealot in them was trying to compensate for having to bite their lips over shirts that weren't tucked in.
other than this incident, it sounds like Worlds was run extremely well.

This 'Roo has found this thread most interesting, regardless of what the court decides...

Perhaps the nebulous 'sleeves-rolled up' "code infraction" has grounds in this [?]:


8.3 Dress Code
8.3.1 All players in PDGA sanctioned competitions are expected to dress
appropriately and maintain a clean and well-groomed appearance
at all Event sites and all associated functions.



...one could argue that sleeves a-rolled fails in the well-groomed maintainence department?

Not I, but someone?

I don't understand why Dave got a courtesy violation for lying when the person giving the violation only talked to the officials who saw dave on a few holes and not to the other players on his card who were with him for an entire round. That's just irresponsible. To call someone a liar without hearing from as many witnesses as you can is irresponsible and a good way to get a bloody nose.

I think rules should be followed, and to have a meeting saying that you will enforce all the rules except for one is much less professional than a bare shoulder.
I mean come on. Selective rule enforcement is professional but rolling up your sleeves isn't?
That's crazy talk.

girlymon
Worm Burner
Reged: 11/04/03
Posts: 107
Loc: Nashville, Tennessee

Play Southern Nationals.....PDGA is (imo) the NFL........No Fun League



Nick_Kight
Carpal Cranker
Reged: 11/04/03
Posts: 5110
Loc: Media, PA

I had no idea they were even competing organizations. If they are the SN are a joke, if not the SN is awesome.

I doubt the organizers of SN want to go head to head with the PDGA, that would be, well, stupid.




Russ3523
Anhyzer Flex
Reged: 11/04/03
Posts: 597
Loc: Florence, Alabama, USA

That was really uncalled for, Nick. I think what the Girlymon meant was that the SN is a bit more laid back where clothing is concerned.



Please reread her post. If that is not a �negative attack� on the PDGA; and an attempt to put SN Events in competition with PDGA Events, then we are not communicating in English.


FYI, ALL SN events are played by PDGA rules. The SN is NOT trying to compete with the PDGA. The SN is a successful 90-event tour culminating in its own amateur (not by your standards I'm sure) and pro championships. We benefit from added cash that comes from the players and goes back to those who attend the championships.



Actually Russ, I knew all of that, and am a big SN fan of their organization and events. And yes, you are correct, I do not think there is an Amateur option in SN or PDGA competition, but that has nothing to do with her attack on the PDGA.


There is nothing "stupid" about our tour. I'm not pitting one against the other because it's comparing apples to oranges. I support them both. Played the Am Worlds and on to SN Am championships this weekend.

Chill. russ3523


Russ, if you reread my post, I did not call the SN tour stupid, I said if for a regional club to go head to head with a worldwide organization with a completely different mandate, one centered around worldwide concerns, that enhance regional and local organization would be �stupid�. And I stand by that assessment.

As you are sensitive to defending SN, I am sensitive to defending the PDGA, MADC, DDG, BCDGA, FSW, LAFS, OWLS, LVDC, VOLUNTEERS, PUTTERS, PFDA, other local clubs in our region, DGLC, PDGA Ratings Committee, PDGA Course Ratings Group, the PDGA Board of Directors, PDGA Rules Committee and any other organized body that provide benefits that move organized disc golf towards a brighter future. Putting down one to praise another in my opinion is, well, stupid. Perhaps you would agree with that.

I don't understand why Dave got a courtesy violation for lying when the person giving the violation only talked to the officials who saw dave on a few holes and not to the other players on his card who were with him for an entire round. That's just irresponsible. To call someone a liar without hearing from as many witnesses as you can is irresponsible and a good way to get a bloody nose.

I think rules should be followed, and to have a meeting saying that you will enforce all the rules except for one is much less professional than a bare shoulder.
I mean come on. Selective rule enforcement is professional but rolling up your sleeves isn't?
That's crazy talk.



A. To speak specifically about this incident is bound to just further the confusion and bad feelings. Hypotheticals based on specific one-sided half-truths do worse than resolve anything.
B. Folks do what they can. To expect otherwise is to court disaster.
C. According to our rules a player found to be breaking our rules, by their group, an official, marshal, or td and deemed to require a call should be called. This player was found to be breaking the rules by a PDGA Marshal and the PDGA Head Marshall.
D. If called the player should accept the call courteously. If they disagree utilize the process in place to dispute it. (This message board NOT being one of them.)
E. If a player is caught lying to their group, an official, marshal, or the td (which I am not saying David did) in my opinion they should be disqualified from the event and all related info forwarded to the PDGA Discipline Committee for review and further action. Lying is beyond a courtesy violation, it is a willful attempt to circumvent the rules by which fair competition is assured. It simply can not and should not be tolerated in a sport such as ours where honesty is so crucial to assuring fair play.

I don't understand why Dave got a courtesy violation for lying when the person giving the violation only talked to the officials who saw dave on a few holes and not to the other players on his card who were with him for an entire round. That's just irresponsible. To call someone a liar without hearing from as many witnesses as you can is irresponsible and a good way to get a bloody nose.

I think rules should be followed, and to have a meeting saying that you will enforce all the rules except for one is much less professional than a bare shoulder.
I mean come on. Selective rule enforcement is professional but rolling up your sleeves isn't?
That's crazy talk.



It was not selective enforcement. There is no rule that requires a person to tuck in their shirt--unless an official asks them to. The officials at the Worlds wanted to enforce that rule the same for everyone at Worlds so they had to decide when they would ask someone to tuck in their shirt. They decided that they would ask people to tuck when their shirts cover their shorts fully. That's not selective enforcement, that's an objective criteria for enforcement. That's not crazy talk, that's responsible behavior.

Players need to realize that they should not argue with officials on the course. I know of at least one player who received a courtesy warning for aguing a ruling with the TD. The TD said "That's my ruling, if you don't agree take it up with Jon and Nez after the round." The player continued to argue and the TD repeated himself. When the player continued to argue after that he was given a courtesy warning.

Dave probably wouldn't have gotten a warning at all if he had just appologized, rolled them down and then kept them down after that. Keeping your sleeves rolled down might be a silly rule, but once the official has declared that to be in violation of the rules, you must comply or face the consequence. Appeals to official's calls are for after the round, not during. Of course this should also be clearly spelled out in the rules so that players can expect to get courtesy warnings if they argue with officials.

Dave probably wouldn't have gotten a warning at all if he had just appologized

YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING . This whole topic is a JOKE. Lets worry about the REAL RULES being broken and not what someoine is wearing. I truely think my PDGA dues could be used more wisely than to make up assinine rules like tuck in your shirt , roll down your sleeves. so next the will enforce people to wear matching socks and what official is going to check everyone to ensure we all have on CLEAN UNDERWEAR??

or underwear at all!

Dave probably wouldn't have gotten a warning at all if he had just appologized

YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING . This whole topic is a JOKE. Lets worry about the REAL RULES being broken and not what someoine is wearing. I truely think my PDGA dues could be used more wisely than to make up assinine rules like tuck in your shirt , roll down your sleeves. so next the will enforce people to wear matching socks and what official is going to check everyone to ensure we all have on CLEAN UNDERWEAR??



As I have said before, I don't particularly care for the current dress code rules. However, the discussion here is about the REAL RULES. The rules on the dress code currently exist and are being enforced. A discussion on real rules being enforced in real tournaments has a real significance to me. Really!! :D

Chris, don't bring sanity into this.

I was wondering, if clean underwear is required, would lying about whether you had clean underwear be "beyond a courtesy violation" or a "willful attempt to circumvent the rules by which fair competition is assured" and thus neccessitating a suspension. :D

What kind of message is lying about underwear sending to the children?

and what happens if the underwear was clean at the beginning of the round, but (somehow) got, um, less-than-clean during the round? with divisions like Senior Grandmaster Legend Wizard Masters showing up, incontinence is becoming a real issue on the course. :D

Down with COUNTRY CLUB SNOBS up with normal everyday AMERICANS, where is the ACLU when you need them! Maybe that should be my ELECTION SLOGAN for the BOD....



you got my vote!

> and what happens if the underwear was clean at the beginning
> of the round, but (somehow) got, um, less-than-clean during the
> round? with divisions like Senior Grandmaster Legend Wizard
> Masters showing up, incontinence is becoming a real issue on
> the course

You have no idea of the circumstances under which I got the only birdie all week on Hole 6 at Grandview. And that's all I'm going to say! :o

Nick I guess everyones opinion offends you. You must be one aggitated ( stupid ) arse hole. Any time someone says the least negative comment concerning the PDGA your feathers get ruffled. Oh, I'm sorry, DODO birds don't have feathers /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Nick I guess everyones opinion offends you. You must be one aggitated ( stupid ) arse hole. Any time someone says the least negative comment concerning the PDGA your feathers get ruffled. Oh, I'm sorry, DODO birds don't have feathers /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Excuse me while I get out my soapbox. One of the things I really like about this web site is how accurate people who post here are. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Nick takes and gives more than his fair share of grief. The notion that Nick un-categorically supports the PDGA is possibly mistaken. That Nick holds himself to the standard of not judging a situation until he has all the information is hardly something to criticize him for. That he criticizes others who do not do the same seems to severely offend many posters. Take this issue. Nick has been insistent that to judge the PDGA without knowing what happened is wrong. I don't see how you can find fault with this, yet many do.

That Nick brooks no nonsense is clear. If you write something caustic or attacking he is likely to reply in kind. Is that approach the best? Perhaps not, but you can't say he isn't provoked. Take this post; Nick has been called a DODO, stupid and an arse hole. Should we be surprised that he might be offended and reply in kind?

Nick gets his bad reputation because he almost always replies to unprovoked attacks on the PDGA and its sub-organizations. If you are going to criticize him for his harsh replies, then you should give equal billing to those who make those attacks. That he is often correct in his assertion that those attacks are misinformed is inconsequential. Whether criticizing the PDGA or defending it, Nick is correct, we should all make sure our facts are as correct as possible and then consider that there may be alternate views when posting.

Section 8.3 Dress Code - http://www.pdgatour.com/handbook.php
-says:

"All players MUST wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required. Women are allowed to wear tasteful, sleeveless collared shirts as designated above."





So what makes women special??!! Why is it that we are allowed to wear sleeveless shirts, but guys aren't!!!! Sounds like discrimination to me...

So what makes women special??!! Why is it that we are allowed to wear sleeveless shirts, but guys aren't!!!! Sounds like discrimination to me...



I hear they even have even have separate divisons for women, too. :eek: When will it end?!?!? ;)

That Nick holds himself to the standard of not judging a situation until he has all the information is hardly something to criticize him for. That he criticizes others who do not do the same seems to severely offend many posters. Take this issue. Nick has been insistent that to judge the PDGA without knowing what happened is wrong.




That's pretty funny. Read any of the political threads that Nick posts on and then replace 'PDGA' with 'Bush Administration' and try not to laugh.

Hypocrisy? It's dripping with it.

It's not that women are special, it is indeed that our society is traditionally sexist. We have this built into us to the point that we don't view it as sexist. It's all about looking at that upper arm, Oh baby!

BTW - I'll give you odds that there will be a you're overreacting comment within... :D

I'm confused Dan, are you saying that you don't think its a good idea to think before you post and consider alternate view points, or that you just want to trash Nick?

I understand that Nick is politically partisan but that isn't what my post addressed. In particular it was considering the PDGA and issues involved with the PDGA. And before you find one, I have no doubt that we can find a post where Nick shows unconditional, unthinking partisanship to the PDGA. To reiterate, the point is that in general, we should all consider alternate view points before we attack the PDGA or anyone for that matter.

What is the purpose of the dress code?

Image or Competition, it should be Competition!

We are not playing at Country Clubs with dress codes, we are playing in Public Parks for the most part. Even most Public golf courses don't have dress codes. The Rule is a STUPID attempt to make DG something that it isn't, hasn't ever nor will ever be.... a SPORT OF KINGS, maybe a SPORT of little kings though. Leave the collared shirt rules for Polo matches & PGA players playing at the most exclusive & non diverse Big Cat Fancy Country Clubs. Augusta doesn't even allow Women members, just recently allowed minorities, yeah let's emulate that environment for our sport, NOT!

So let's start a petition to change the rule to a functional dress code for NORMAL AMERICANS.....

Who has a website to host such a petition drive? Let's make some noise people!

peace out, ROG

I was not attacking anything, just a simple comment.
And I did not deserve the response he gave. I don't see how my comment was a provoked or unprovoked attack on the PDGA, and I will not sit back and listen to his crap when all I'm doing is putting a little humor in the topic. I've been a member of the PDGA for 13 years and will continue to support the PDGA.
It is ok to disagree but don't force your religion down my throat.Nick gets his bad reputation because he is always offended if you don't see his point of view.I see posts all the time I don't agree with but I don't push my beliefs on others. Yes I called him DoDo cause he attacked me and the SN. When Nick can be little more kind them so will I

Some have suggested it's that armpit hair that men have that is the problem. But there is no rule requiring women to shave their pits and there is no rule saying men who shave their pits can go sleeveless.

The rule that men must wear sleeves and women don't have to is really silly. I'm surprised the author of it didn't also say women can have long hair (tied in a neat bun) while men must have short hair or keep it all tucked under a nice hat.

Let's just suppose there was no dress code requiring a collar or sleeves (gasp). Most players would still wear collared shirts -- it is their routine. Some players would deviate from the norm (gasp) and wear tee shirts or even sleeveless ones.

However I think it is a safe bet that the vast majority of players would dress respectably and look reasonable presentable. There could even be a sensible rule that states that players are expected to begin each day in clean, non-offensive attire. It could even say mid sections shouldn't be bare (can't have that) and that cut-off clothing is disallowed on the NT. But do we really want to force players who are not comfortable doing so to wear collars or sleeves? What stopped the writers of the dress code from banning facial hair and body piercings?

What pushes a fledgling sport into extreme popularity?
Collared shirts? A good tailor?

Everything is an attack to you Nick

Play Southern Nationals.....PDGA is (imo) the NFL........No Fun League /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



I had no idea they were even competing organizations. If they are the SN are a joke, if not the SN is awesome.

I doubt the organizers of SN want to go head to head with the PDGA, that would be, well, stupid.



Sounds like an attack to me Nick

What is the purpose of the dress code?

Image or Competition, it should be Competition!

We are not playing at Country Clubs with dress codes, we are playing in Public Parks for the most part. Even most Public golf courses don't have dress codes. The Rule is a STUPID attempt to make DG something that it isn't, hasn't ever nor will ever be.... a SPORT OF KINGS, maybe a SPORT of little kings though. Leave the collared shirt rules for Polo matches & PGA players playing at the most exclusive & non diverse Big Cat Fancy Country Clubs. Augusta doesn't even allow Women members, just recently allowed minorities, yeah let's emulate that environment for our sport, NOT!

So let's start a petition to change the rule to a functional dress code for NORMAL AMERICANS.....

Who has a website to host such a petition drive? Let's make some noise people!

peace out, ROG



"Normal Americans" don't compete at the wold class level. We're talking about (in theory) the top tier of athletes in a sport, not recreational play.

Suggesting that forcing people to wear collared shirts is at all similar to discrimination is just a weak attempt to make an argument that isn't there. I'm required to wear a collared shirt at work and we have people of all ethnicities, both genders and with just about any deviation from the stereotypical upper-class white male you can think of.

Would everyone rather have a uniform they are forced to wear at all events to keep everything equal? Having no dress code won't work...I can't see the PDGA allowing naked people and/or people with offensive subject matter on their clothes. Does that really sound better than what the rules, which happen to be very casual compared to most other professional sports, are now?

I want to see the sport grow. I want to be able to watch competitions on television. I want the top players to be able make a living competing and not just hope to make enough cash to get to the next event. That won't happen if the top level of tournaments just looks like a bunch of slobs wandering around in a park.

All this augueing about how women can wear sleveless shirts and guys can't sounds like some of the guys in my 8th grade class. The girls could wear skirts during the time of the year that shorts were forbidden. Some guys complained about how this wasn't fair and was discrimination. As it turns out, there are actually some differences between guys and girls. One of them happens to be what fashions are socially acceptable for either to wear. I'm no sociologist, but I beleive that a discrepency like this is actually pretty common when you look at all the different cultures of the world. Guys don't have to wear shirts to a public pool in the US, why should girls? How many of you would take your kids to a public pool that allowed topless girls? I'll try and word this like the teachers did in junior high: why doesn't everyone stop worrying about what everyone else is doing, and focus on what they are doing? The focus at these tournaments is disc golf. Try concentrating on that and worry less about some incidental rules that are there to try and raise awareness and the public image of the sport. I can think of one specific person on this board who was very vocal about his dislike of the collared shirt rule and how some of the extracarricular events were run and ended up playing below his rating. Perhaps if he had a better attitude about the event he would have been in a better mindset and would have played above his rating instead.

""Normal Americans" don't compete at the wold class level."

neither do 75% (at least) of the Worlds participants.

DUDE, YOU ARE WRONG, NBA doesn't wear sleeves, Discus throwers don't wear sleeves at OLYMPICS, they are TOP NOTCH WORLD CLASS ATHELETES. The 300 to 400 people attending World's aren't really world class, only about the TOP 50 open players & Brad the master ARE! So the majority in attendance are normal folks, if my calculations are right. PS world class athelete's don't compete for $5000 top prize, you can win that at your local country club golf calcutta or club championships.

BTW discus throwing is the closest in physical activity to DG....

What pushes a fledgling sport into extreme popularity?
Collared shirts? A good tailor?




I have two words for you, Armani Suits. If we all wore Armani Suits we'd all be rich. Of course you have to be rich to afford an Armani suit but that is a different issue. :D

What pushes a fledgling sport into extreme popularity?
Collared shirts? A good tailor?




I have two words for you, Armani Suits. If we all wore Armani Suits we'd all be rich. Of course you have to be rich to afford an Armani suit but that is a different issue. :D



[sarcasm mode fully engaged:]
That's perfect. After each throw, players could be required to change into formal attire for photo opportunities. we could even require each player to carry a small grooming mirror to maintain proper appearance.

I am not really interested in debating underarm hair lengths (although long pit hair is deemed sexy in some European countries and in parking lots at some concerts here) but what I gather from all this is the same old thing:

when anyone gets called on a rule (right or wrong, by an official or player, PDGA event or local action) we have a tendency to take it as someone else "copping an attitude".

While rule violations do impact the vibe of the group, consider it a favor if you get a courtesy warning, swallow it no matter how bitter, and then go home and look at your rule books again.
Better to except a call and later learn you are right or wrong in your interpretation than compromise the vibe during play!

One thing that would really help is for those of you that play a lot of disc golf (for fun or money) is to try to call courtesy warnings during local action. This way people begin to feel comfortable with it, rather than feel that others are jumping on their case, copping attitudes, playing favorites, sabatoging play, etc.
I don't mean stroke a rec. player for taking 1.00000001 M relief from OB instead of 1 M, I just mean point out things while playing!

Recently I was in a group during weekly doubles with 3 officials and a rec. player. Guess who called someone for a foot fault?
You got it, the rec. player!
I am sure he learned the rules from the rest of us and at least we taught him well, BUt we all should be paying more attention!
Yall see what I mean?
p.s. think about the growth of the sport! just a couple of years ago Wheatie and Paul were having major drama on the old discussion board about rules at the worlds. Now we have marshalls, course TDs and officials in place and here we are: major drama about rules violations on the discussion board!!!!
anyone see the humor here?
Every time the PDGA takes a poll, the consensus is we need stronger enforcement of rules. (Not more of them)
Let's try to work with them on this. It will obviously take time. I for one am not going to work on my disc golf wardrobe just yet!

Bow ties and hair gel in the players pack. :)

Call me crazy, but I don't think calling courtesy violations on players with rolled up sleeves or untucked shirts are the kind of rules enforcement the membership wants.

8.3 Dress Code
8.3.1 All players in PDGA sanctioned competitions are expected to dress
appropriately and maintain a clean and well-groomed appearance
at all Event sites and all associated functions.




[/QUOTE]

When I tried to look up this rule in the rule book that is given to us with our membership stuff, I couldn't find it. Then I see someone post with the link to it. I had no idea that there was more than one rule book... :confused:

Good post Sue!

I had no idea that there was more than one rule book.

There is only one rule book which covers tournament play. The link in question was to the 2004 NT Players Handbook which covers regulations and standards for top tier events.

Don't forget there's also the "TD Sanctioning Agreement" which is home of the no-alchohol-during-play rule.

Follow golf the rules have changed.It is a park should we dress up to cook ckicken.None of my golf courses has a dress code except no tanktops.The PDGA has bigger issues than dress code.

I was watching Olympic beach volleyball last night and started thinking how much better those women would look in collared shirts. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif That sport has had a meteoric rise in popularity and media coverage. The gymnasts should have worn collared shirts also. And don't get me started on the swimmers.

Requiring collared, sleeved shirts makes Disc Golf feel more like ball golf and imo that doesn't help.

Follow golf the rules have changed.It is a park should we dress up to cook ckicken.None of my golf courses has a dress code except no tanktops.The PDGA has bigger issues than dress code.



Like finding members that can speak English... :D

<font color="red"> The PDGA has bigger issues than dress code </font>

could not agree more

I had no idea that there was more than one rule book.

There is only one rule book which covers tournament play. The link in question was to the 2004 NT Players Handbook which covers regulations and standards for top tier events.



Ok so it's not called a "rulebook". It's a handbook with different rules, oops I mean regulations and standards, in it. Point is, it's still more stuff that we have to follow and obey or we get warnings and strokes. Sounds like more rules to me.

I was watching Olympic beach volleyball last night and started thinking how much better those women would look in collared shirts. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif That sport has had a meteoric rise in popularity and media coverage. The gymnasts should have worn collared shirts also. And don't get me started on the swimmers.

Requiring collared, sleeved shirts makes Disc Golf feel more like ball golf and imo that doesn't help.



I hear that the original athletes participated in the nude. We could do that and really draw in the crowds.

you obviously have never seen the OMB division that lives between temple and denton :eek:

I didn't say whether the crowd would be admiring or laughing, I just said they would be there. :D

I was one of the marshals working at Worlds, and though some seem to object to the implementation of a dress code policy for the PDGAs top-most events, I want to say that I was impressed to see everyone dressed in collared shirts.

Many of the Iowa courses were in public parks/areas where they had a lot of traffic from observers and spectators. The appearance we presented to them was a good one. I overheard two different groups of spectators comment about how professionally everyone looked and acted out there...they were cautious about stepping out onto the courses to watch the action. I escorted the spectators out to some areas between fairways so that they could watch the action on multiple holes at one time.

I think that the rule and its intent are good for our image and our sport. It looked like the players were taking the competition seriously.

What about World Doubles in San Saba, Tx. better none as BFE, never understood why we had to where them there.

<font color="red"> The PDGA has bigger issues than dress code </font>

could not agree more



I've read complaints about the dress code here and elsewhere read about how it was shocking that the pro open winner earns less than a national spelling bee champion. (I think $5300 was compared with $12000.)

Sounds like there's a camp of people who want disc golf to project a better image. A better image means more courses, more sponsorship, more membership. And if that image is enhanced by enforcing a dress code policy, then maybe we should follow it and not complain so much.

However, for those who care less about disc golf's image, I hope they are the same people that don't care what the pro open prize is, and don't care how many disc golf courses there are. Because that would at least be consistent.

The rules on the dress code currently exist and are being enforced.


Not the tucked in part
why some rules and not others?
is that really the professional image the PDGA is looking for, that they enforce some of their rules, depending on how they feel about that particular rule?

I was one of the marshals working at Worlds, and though some seem to object to the implementation of a dress code policy for the PDGAs top-most events, I want to say that I was impressed to see everyone dressed in collared shirts.

Many of the Iowa courses were in public parks/areas where they had a lot of traffic from observers and spectators. The appearance we presented to them was a good one. I overheard two different groups of spectators comment about how professionally everyone looked and acted out there...they were cautious about stepping out onto the courses to watch the action. I escorted the spectators out to some areas between fairways so that they could watch the action on multiple holes at one time.

I think that the rule and its intent are good for our image and our sport. It looked like the players were taking the competition seriously.



To be consistent with that line of reasoning, do you support a dress code that requires crew cuts and no facial hair for men? I fail to understand why collarless and sleeveless shirts would change anything about the impression disc golf leaves with the public. Professional behavior will leave a better impression than wearing clothes that make us look like preps. Besides the trend has been set, lightening up on the dress code isn't likely to lead to a whole lot of change in what people wear on tour. It will however enable those not comfortable conforming to the present dress code the freedom to dress comfortably and focus on the important things -- their game and their behavior on the course.

If you are wearing a t-shirt and cut-off shorts, the world at large is not going to take you seriously, no matter how well-behaved and professional you act. Image is everything in getting the big-dollar sponsorship that this sport needs to go to the next level. And because what we are playing is golf, that means wearing collared shirts.

To be consistent with that line of reasoning, do you support a dress code that requires crew cuts and no facial hair for men? I fail to understand why collarless and sleeveless shirts would change anything about the impression disc golf leaves with the public. Professional behavior will leave a better impression than wearing clothes that make us look like preps.



We fully and completely understand and appreciate your failure to understand why we have implemented a dress code. Please understand and appreciate our reasons for implementing it. This will not make you happier, but the truth is we are an association, not a democracy or anarchy. We do what we feel, as an association, is necessary to do.

It has taken us nearly 20 years to implement this minimal dress code (AND ONLY FOR MAJORS AND NTS). That is a sign of two things:

1) That there were some compelling arguments against it for those years.
2) That compelling reasons to implement a minimal dress code were found to be stronger and in the better interests of our association (at least at the level implemented).

Do you honestly think it was done on a whim? Do you fully understand the history of it?

I don't see too many basketball players in the NBA on the court in tee shirts or collared shirts with upper arm covering sleeves. It is their agreed upon uniform. Try considering a collared shirt our uniform.

The rules on the dress code currently exist and are being enforced.


Not the tucked in part
why some rules and not others?
is that really the professional image the PDGA is looking for, that they enforce some of their rules, depending on how they feel about that particular rule?



There is no rule that you must tuck in your shirt. You are only required to tuck in your shirt when an official asks you to. An official is not obligated to go around all the courses and ask everyone to tuck in. They will probably only ask people to tuck in if they are wearing an overly large shirt. It is a judgement call. That's why we have TDs and Marshalls, to make judgement calls.

okay so we have a dress code to attract LARGE sponsors. Lets see what sponsors team up with the PDGA this time next year. So we look nice, not drunk but still can smell like [***** CHIT] from smoking cigarettes??? what kinda of image is that? personnally I see more cig BUTTZ on the courses than anything else.

To be consistent with that line of reasoning, do you support a dress code that requires crew cuts and no facial hair for men? I fail to understand why collarless and sleeveless shirts would change anything about the impression disc golf leaves with the public. Professional behavior will leave a better impression than wearing clothes that make us look like preps. Besides the trend has been set, lightening up on the dress code isn't likely to lead to a whole lot of change in what people wear on tour. It will however enable those not comfortable conforming to the present dress code the freedom to dress comfortably and focus on the important things -- their game and their behavior on the course.



Chances are if you cant play in an UNTUCKED collared shirt you prolly cant play in a SLEVELESS UNTUCKED T-SHIRT EITHER............If you dont want to wear a collared shirt then dont play in A Tiers SuperTours or Majors. Its as simple as that. The thing is if we LOOK PROFESSIONAL then the behavior of some will be overlooked because we LOOK like proffesionals. If we look like CRAP and then some people act like crap it looks alot worse. And who ever said basketball shorts and a collared shirt was a prep outfit. I love how people label you a prep if you wear a collared shirt. THATS RICH :o

History of the Polo Shirt (http://www.4promoproducts.com/polo-shirts/polo-shirt-history.htm) is a nice short article describing how it came into being, including this quote:

"At the turn of the last century the rules demanded that tennis be played in long-sleeved dress shirts as well as a necktie.** Thanks to French tennis champion Rene Lacoste the jersey knit short sleeve shirt was introduced to tennis in 1926."

Do we need a dress code in our sport? Yes.
Is our current dress code best suited to how and where we play our sport? No.

As others have noted, other sports, such as basketball, volleyball, and swimming, allow their players to dress in clothing that is best suited for the type of activities they are competing in. At the same time, they do have a dress code. Could Kobe show up at game time in a pair of cut-off denim shorts? Could Annika Sorenstam wear a shirt emblazoned with a marijuana leaf on it?

I'm not advocating that the PDGA drop the notion of a dress code. It is important to the image of our sport. What I am advocating is creating a dress code that makes sense for our sport.

Disc golf is a much more athletically demanding sport than ball golf. Many of our courses are played on terrain that has more in common with mountaineering and orienteering than it does with country club sports such as ball golf and tennis.

There are tons of companies (Nike, Under Armour, Patagonia, Columbia, etc.) that make high quality, professional appearing clothing that is designed for athletes in extreme sports. Such as ours.

Polo shirts were made for casual Fridays at the office. This shirt (http://www.underarmour.com/ua2/ua/detail.asp?dept_id=1&amp;pf_id=0084&amp;mscssid=)
was designed for athletes. As is this one (http://www.underarmour.com/ua2/ua/detail.asp?dept_id=1&amp;pf_id=0383&amp;mscssid=).

These are the types of high-quality athletic shirts that we should be allowed to wear. Especially at the top level of our sport.

Let�s create a dress code that looks good, but also reflects the true athletic nature of our sport.

The thing is if we LOOK PROFESSIONAL then the behavior of some will be overlooked because we LOOK like proffesionals.



That is the best line I've read on this thread. I almost soiled myself on it.

That "Pro" just kicked his bag across the fairway? Don't worry about it, he looks professional in his collared shirt.

That "Pro" just told the TD to go [*****] himself? Don't worry about it, he looks professional in his collared shirt.

That "Pro" just called me an [*****] for talking to his disc in flight? I can't be upset at him, he must be a professional in his collared shirt.

If you dont want to wear a collared shirt then dont play in A Tiers SuperTours or Majors. Its as simple as that.


Several years ago, one could have argued that "If you don't want to be around people who are smoking dope or getting drunk off their asses, don't play in A Tiers SuperTours or Majors. Some of us are trying to affect positive change in our dress code. Not throw it out with the bathwater.

The thing is if we LOOK PROFESSIONAL then the behavior of some will be overlooked because we LOOK like proffesionals.


See, the flaw in your reasoning is that you assume that the only way to look professional is by wearing collared shirts that have sleeves. You're wrong. And enough examples of other sports and other leagues who have more sport-appropriate attire still maintain a very highly-professional appearance.

Now, letting players wear anything they want, such as cutoff denim shorts, gravy-stained wife beater t-shirts, or marijuana emblazoned t-shirts...yes, that is a negative image that the PDGA should try to elliminate from all levels of play.


I love how people label you a prep if you wear a collared shirt. THATS RICH



And I love how you have labled people who don't wear a collared shirt as anything other than professional. I'll put dimes to your nickles that my typical disc golf gear (all Under Armour and Patagonia sports wear) presents an image of professional athlete an order of magnitude more than your casual Friday polo.

out of curiosity will the PDGA being re-imbursing me when my high dollar polo gets ripped if I have to crawl under a thorn bush to throw my shot?? didn;t think so.

Yea, Barry probably would have done better than -42 if he was dressed in an athletic shirt instead of a casual Friday shirt. lol :)

If the card carrying pros can play in a polo shirt, why can't the rest of us?

Nick, you constantly refer to 'we' and 'us' when talking about the implementation of the dress code. Was it your idea? Were you on the committee that approved it or recommended it? I'm curious to know.

Andrew, do you really want me to shoot holes all through your logical fallacies? 'Cause man, they're gaping.

Expensive? These (http://store.yahoo.com/cheapestees-store/ancotdelpiqk.html) are $10. Our club sells custom polos for a profit (we need 9 more baskets), and charges $15. That's about the price of a disc.

The rules on the dress code currently exist and are being enforced.


Not the tucked in part
why some rules and not others?
is that really the professional image the PDGA is looking for, that they enforce some of their rules, depending on how they feel about that particular rule?



There is no rule that you must tuck in your shirt. You are only required to tuck in your shirt when an official asks you to. An official is not obligated to go around all the courses and ask everyone to tuck in. They will probably only ask people to tuck in if they are wearing an overly large shirt. It is a judgement call. That's why we have TDs and Marshalls, to make judgement calls.




Sounds more like fashion police to me. If tucking your shirt in is not a rule then how can you as an official enforce it. How can it be a judgement call when it's not even a rule. :confused:

out of curiosity will the PDGA being re-imbursing me when my high dollar polo gets ripped if I have to crawl under a thorn bush to throw my shot?? didn;t think so.



They aren't going to reimburse you the cost of the disc that you throw into the water during the showcase 9 either. What's your point?

they are not mandating I throw expensive plastic just expensive clothes. no point just more WASTED BANDWIDTH AND SERVER SPACE. kinda like this WHOLE THREAD :D


If tucking your shirt in is not a rule then how can you as an official enforce it. How can it be a judgement call when it's not even a rule.


because this is the PDGA.

Rooster, sure, fire away.

Now, finally someone has made a reasonable argument for examining our dress code rules. We need one, we have one, we will continue to need one, let's make it a good one. None of which says it is ok to disregard the one we currently have, just that we can make it better. This is very different from saying we don't need one at all, or that any dress code will discriminate (of course it will, but for the good of the sport, not to cast aspersions on certain economically or fashion challenged folks).

Nick, you constantly refer to 'we' and 'us' when talking about the implementation of the dress code. Was it your idea? Were you on the committee that approved it or recommended it? I'm curious to know.



It goes with "I am the PDGA" Dan. And yes, I was a part of the decision process: In the Membership Survey 2 or more years ago.

Noone is arguing whether a professional image should be desired by PDGA, it should be, but what constitutes a professional image.

I'll say it again Disc Golf is not a COUNTRY CLUB sport, it also requires exclusive use of one's arms & I DON'T LIKE TO BE RESTRICTED BY POINTLESS SLEEVES. Give me AN OPTION that suits my personal preference, & I'll abide by it. Basketball Jersey, track suit, underarmour, tuxedo without sleeves I don't care but don't restrict my upper arms.... that is the point here.

The dress code should support ones performance not restrict it for the sake of sleeves. What's next, long pants, and black/white saddle shoes?

BTW those hacks on the beach playing Volleyball have grown their sport way better than we have (TV coverage, sponsors, prize money) & they are shirtless.... why because people realize how athletic they are, most people have tried to play sand volleyball & these guys make it look easy. Normal people realize it is hard as heck.

Most people have thrown a frisbee, so the key is to show them what the top pros can do with one, and they will be in awe of what they see.

Arguing that sleeves & collars are a great dress code is not supporting DISC GOLF they're supporting GOLF or POLO.
We need a gimmick, not faceless collared shirted pros.... like the PGA.

I need a 40...

I am wondering if the sleeve issue will change in about 4 months. I get cold in the winter.

so when will the PDGA enforce players with tatooes on their arms to wear long sleeves to cover the TATS. They do not look very professional ..

Well now that depends on where you live, now doesn't it.

Do you where a collared shirt under your Parka?

Tat's add character, they are great for our sport, we need marketability & controversy in our players. But the conservatives who are trying to run the PDGA don't understand that, now do they!

Xtreme sports are full of characters and their sports is growing, things that make you go ummmmm!

lesson from the past... Mc Enroe help his sport despite or because of his behavior, people wanted to watch him blow up ummmmm.

There are more than one way to skin a cat & grow a sport....

The rules on the dress code currently exist and are being enforced.


Not the tucked in part
why some rules and not others?
is that really the professional image the PDGA is looking for, that they enforce some of their rules, depending on how they feel about that particular rule?



There is no rule that you must tuck in your shirt. You are only required to tuck in your shirt when an official asks you to. An official is not obligated to go around all the courses and ask everyone to tuck in. They will probably only ask people to tuck in if they are wearing an overly large shirt. It is a judgement call. That's why we have TDs and Marshalls, to make judgement calls.




Sounds more like fashion police to me. If tucking your shirt in is not a rule then how can you as an official enforce it. How can it be a judgement call when it's not even a rule. :confused:



The rule is that you must tuck in your shirt if an official asks you to. That's not that hard to understand. It means you can feel free to tuck or not to tuck as long as an official hasn't asked you to tuck. I think enough has been said on the tuck/untuck question. If you don't get it by now, you probably won't ever get it.

they are not mandating I throw expensive plastic just expensive clothes. no point just more WASTED BANDWIDTH AND SERVER SPACE. kinda like this WHOLE THREAD :D



The choice to wear expensive shirts is as much of a choice as to throw expensive plastic. I wore $7 shirts at worlds all week.

My thoughts exactly; Jon ? what is your answer to my question

Rooster, sure, fire away.



Yea, Barry probably would have done better than -42 if he was dressed in an athletic shirt instead of a casual Friday shirt.



Ok, Andrew, you asked:

In just this one sentence I have found 7 instances of logical fallacies:

The first is one of the Fallacies of Distraction �
Specificaly, you commited an error of Ignorance, which states: because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false.

Example � Since you cannot prove that Barry would have done better in an athletic shirt, it must be false.

The second is one of the Inductive Fallacies � Inductive reasoning consists of inferring from the properties of a sample to the properties of a population as a whole. Specifically, you have used the following Inductive Fallacies:
<ul type="square"> Hasty Generalization� the sample is too small to support an inductive generalization about a population.

Example�You used one golfer�s score to support your argument that he played better because of a collared shirt. What about the players who were +50 or higher (18x the number of players compared to your single example)? According to your logic, they must have played worse because of their collared shirts.
Fallacy of Exclusion� evidence which would change the outcome of an inductive argument is excluded from consideration.

Example�By excluding the performance of all players who wore collared shirts at the tournament and then comparing their scores to rounds shot without collared shirts, you have committed a fallacy of exclusion.
Converse Accident� an exception is applied in circumstances where a generalization should apply.

Example� Because we allow terminally ill patients to use heroin, we should allow everyone to use heroin. Or, using your logic, because Barry shot well wearing a collared shirt, everyone should shoot well wearing a collared shirt. [/list]

Your third type of fallacy was one of the Casual Fallacies� It is common for arguments to conclude that one thing causes another.

In fact, this is the most glaring and obvious fallacy in your single statement. Specifically, you committed a fallacy called Post Hoc � because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other.

Example�Because Barry wore a collared shirt, he shot �42. This fails to consider that Barry is just a witch when it comes to disc golf, and he could beat 99.9999 of the golfers in the world wearing snowshoes, a parka, and a sombrero.

I�ve probably given you enough, but here are a couple more:

You also committed one of the Non Sequitur fallacies, in this case a form of the Affirming the Consequent fallacy� any argument of the form: If A then B, B, therefore A.

Your argument: If Barry can shoot �42 while wearing a collared shirt (A) then we should all be able to shoot a �42 while wearing a collared shirt (B); therefore, We should all be able to shoot a �42 because we�re wearing a collared shirt.

So, Andrew�did you shoot a �42 at Worlds while wearing your collared shirt?

And lastly, you committed one of the Syllogistic Errors. Specifically, you committed an Undistributed Middle fallacy�two separate categories are said to be connected because they share a common property.


If the card carrying pros can play in a polo shirt, why can't the rest of us?


I only see about 4 logical fallacies in this statement, but I should get back to work.

Now isn't that just lovely. So if i'm on a course with two
officials and on hole two the one says it is ok and on hole 6 the other says tuck it in.... Thats what I love about this sport, consistency. It is not a rule, it is an officials opionion in my opinion

My thoughts exactly; Jon ? what is your answer to my question



How can it be a judgement call when it's not even a rule.

If that's your question, then this is my answer. The rule is that an official might ask you to tuck in your shirt. I can't tell you how officials might use this rule at other events, but at Worlds it was decided that no one would ask anyone to tuck unless their shirt completely covered their shorts. To me, this is a judgement call because the rules don't spell out when an official might ask you to tuck, but the rule that you might be asked by an official to tuck in your shirt is still there. I don't think it's worded very well and there are other things about the dress code at NTs that can use some work also. But I wasn't commenting on what should be, just what is.

I don't get and will not get it as long as all these rules are so subjective

History of the Polo Shirt (http://www.4promoproducts.com/polo-shirts/polo-shirt-history.htm) is a nice short article describing how it came into being, including this quote:

"At the turn of the last century the rules demanded that tennis be played in long-sleeved dress shirts as well as a necktie.** Thanks to French tennis champion Rene Lacoste the jersey knit short sleeve shirt was introduced to tennis in 1926."



So *that* is how tennis became so big. Neckties are the secret to success. :D

Corporate sponsorship will be the result of self-interested market exploitation and not what we wear.

I am not saying the dress code needs to be dumped or should allow cut-offs or "legalize hemp" shirts. What I am suggesting is requiring sleeves and collars is too restrictive for a sport as active as disc golf. Those ten percent or so who would stop wearing collars and sleeves would do so in order to compete more comfortably, and I am confident they could still dress presentably. That 9 to 1 ratio might underscore to the potential viewing public that while most disc golfers dress awfully respectably, the sport doesn't force that on anyone and those that deviate look good too.

Maybe we could give yellow cards to hot heads and if you get two -- you have to wear a long-sleeved dress shirt, dress pants, be clean-shaven, and wear a necktie. That way the nice clothes might help mitigate unprofessional behavior. Or maybe the logic of that is faulty...

How could you look professional in a $7 shirt, it must be fashion foopaa, at the Country Club you must wear only clothes from Fine Men's fashion stores, not discount racks @ Target.......

Now isn't that just lovely. So if i'm on a course with two
officials and on hole two the one says it is ok and on hole 6 the other says tuck it in.... Thats what I love about this sport, consistency. It is not a rule, it is an officials opionion in my opinion



That's the problem that I have with this rule and why I think it should be rewritten. At Worlds, I think Jon did a good job of getting all the officials on the same page of the tuck issue so that it would be consistent.

I think one wording that I'd like to see is that if tucking is required at a particular event, that Hooter's girls must be provided to perform the required tucking for the player. That way the player would not have to keep retucking as their shirt comes out after throws. One girl on each hole should take care of it, right?

The rule is that you must tuck in your shirt if an official asks you to. That's not that hard to understand. It means you can feel free to tuck or not to tuck as long as an official hasn't asked you to tuck. I think enough has been said on the tuck/untuck question. If you don't get it by now, you probably won't ever get it.



The rule says shirts SHOULD be tucked. Clearly the intent of the rule is for everyone to play with their shirts tucked. The use of 'should' instead of 'must' probably is due to the fact that shirts will become untucked during some drives and therefore it stops rule zealots from trying to stroke someone in such instances. As this thread began because of a rolled up sleeve issue, and noone has explained the inconsistent rule enforcement with regard to rolled up sleeves and untucked shirts, don't be surprised if some of us disagree with your assessment.

So if I'm reading this right , I can expect different interpretations of the rules depending on what event I'm playing in or which set of officials are agreeing to... this is how we are going to call it. I see a lack of consistency and or understading of several rules that can be confusing. I made a statement earlier about the PDGA being the no fun league. My point is that I have no desire
to be the next Ken Climo nor will I ever have the skill set to compete at that level. I play to experience new courses and meet old friends and hopefully make new ones and to have a GOOD time. So that is why I refer to the SN as being a fun venue. I have been to five Worlds and bar none Iowa was the most organinzed event of them all. But I must say this is the first time I really didn't have fun due to so many players focusing on who was doing what wrong instead of concentrating on their game. I realize if you see a violation it should be called, but everything just seemed
magnified and so confusing that whole week.

Hey Rooster, thanks for your posts. They are to the point and opens the mind :cool:

I think the goal is to get all the rules written so that as little interpretation is needed...so that they cover all possibilities. But as it stands now there are several rules that are subject to interpretation. And because they are being interpreted by people, you are inevitably going to get different rulings...whether at the Worlds, an SN event, or your local league. Rules should keep evolving and one benefit of discussions like these is for players from all areas to share their ideas about the rules.

The rule is that you must tuck in your shirt if an official asks you to. That's not that hard to understand. It means you can feel free to tuck or not to tuck as long as an official hasn't asked you to tuck. I think enough has been said on the tuck/untuck question. If you don't get it by now, you probably won't ever get it.



The rule says shirts SHOULD be tucked. Clearly the intent of the rule is for everyone to play with their shirts tucked. The use of 'should' instead of 'must' probably is due to the fact that shirts will become untucked during some drives and therefore it stops rule zealots from trying to stroke someone in such instances. As this thread began because of a rolled up sleeve issue, and noone has explained the inconsistent rule enforcement with regard to rolled up sleeves and untucked shirts, don't be surprised if some of us disagree with your assessment.



Here's the rule:
Players should tuck in their shirt whenever possible, and may be asked to do so by a Tournament official.

I don't think that that "clearly" says everyone should play with their shirts tucked. I don't think that says much of anything clearly. It doesn't even say that you must comply if an official asks you to tuck in your shirt--although I'd certainly recommend compliance.

As I've said before I think these NT rules need to be rewritten to be more clear and to account for more kinds of professional athletic dress.

are uniforms next! no collars at the olympics . how about those sand volley ball girls .

ah the good ole days


The constant challenge, the social nature of the game, the good physical and mental conditioning, and the fact that it is inexpensive to play are also attractions. Disc golf is a recreational sport for everyone, regardless of age, gender, or ability.

or well at least it use to be. seems the PDGA is going to change that. I think the Preface to the rule book should be changed

ditto

ah the good ole days


The constant challenge, the social nature of the game, the good physical and mental conditioning, and the fact that it is inexpensive to play are also attractions. Disc golf is a recreational sport for everyone, regardless of age, gender, or ability.

or well at least it use to be. seems the PDGA is going to change that. I think the Preface to the rule book should be changed



changed to what?

Man Rooster,

You're a very good writer and its nice to see someone post who understand the notion of causal relationships, however, Big Chiz's comment:


Yea, Barry probably would have done better than -42 if he was dressed in an athletic shirt instead of a casual Friday shirt.




was based on sarcasm. Nonetheless, he has questioned the assertion that a player, a specific player, would play better because of the shirt they are wearing. This is his hypothesis so to speak. Whether or not his hypothesis is correct is an interesting question. The fact that the presenter believes this to be a foregone conclusion is not relevant; he has not "really" presented the issue as a conclusion (note his use of probably). Even if he presented it as a conclusion as long as he accurately described the conditions under which he drew his conclusions he would still be on safe ground. And of course, if he drew a conclusion, one would hope he would have the appropriate experimentation to show his point. You might choose to disagree with his conclusion and refute the parameters of his experiment and that is your choice.

In the rest of your arguments, you've done exactly what you accused him of doing. You assumed he has generalized about the entire body playing disc golf in collared or athletic gear when indeed he has not. He simply commented on Barry.

You've assumed that he excluded data; all scientists use the data they have. Chiz didn't exclude data, he didn't have any; how could he exclude it?

Hasty Generalization, again he didn't generalize, he simply commented on Barry.

I can go on but you see the point. I will not deny that had Chiz written more, he might have done those things that you are assuming he has done but they were not presented in his hypothesis thus, it appears you may be in error.

BTW - the Underarmor mock turtleneck is very nice; think I will have to get one for a tournament in the future. On the other hand, given that many posters have commented on the cost of polos, the $30 price tag on this shirt might be prohibative.

changed to if you ain't a 1000 rated player than who really cares how you feel. stop all the catering and making up lame dress codes and maybe the sport will return to being FUN again. it sure seems that as a whole the PDGA tournies are not near as fun as they use to be. again this is just opinion.

Several people keep comparing disc golf to "extreme sports". Get over it, disc golf is not "extreme". When a fat old guy can tear it up while dragging a cooler full of beer around with him, it's not an extreme sport. It's more like bowling. Or really, it's more like ball golf. You don't have to be in ridiculous good shape and you won't break bones or die when you screw up.

So we are not extreme.

We are a very good sport that requires much skill to do well at the higher levels. But we're not extreme.

tell my orthapedic surgeon that! sport is the key word ,

Rooster, it appears you missed the intent of the "lol" (laughing out loud) and " :) ". They are present to indicate a joke, to let the reader know the author is attempting to be whimsical. The gross errors in deductive reasoning and sarcasm make the statement humorous.

I was unaware as to which statement(s) you were referring, or I could have saved you the time and made an explanation. But thanks in regards to the detailed analysis. Intentional or not, it adds to the humor.

I found Rooster's post very entertaining. A good read.

I found Rooster's post very entertaining. A good read.



Indeed. Though it was like swatting a fly with a Bazooka.

Indeed. Though it was like swatting a fly with a Bazooka.



I think that would be entertaining as well. A little messier, but very entertaining.

Maybe we could give yellow cards to hot heads and if you get two -- you have to wear a long-sleeved dress shirt, dress pants, be clean-shaven, and wear a necktie. That way the nice clothes might help mitigate unprofessional behavior. Or maybe the logic of that is faulty...

[/QUOTE]

/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif RAOFLMAO ;)

Maybe we could give yellow cards to hot heads and if you get two -- you have to wear a long-sleeved dress shirt, dress pants, be clean-shaven, and wear a necktie. That way the nice clothes might help mitigate unprofessional behavior. Or maybe the logic of that is faulty...



Oh lord, then you'd look like Bruce Brakel - except for the clean-shaven part. :p

I found Rooster's post very entertaining. A good read.



Indeed. Though it was like swatting a fly with a Bazooka.



this coming from someone who swats flies with atomic bombs with his posts :D

Nick, you constantly refer to 'we' and 'us' when talking about the implementation of the dress code. Was it your idea? Were you on the committee that approved it or recommended it? I'm curious to know.



It goes with "I am the PDGA" Dan. And yes, I was a part of the decision process: In the Membership Survey 2 or more years ago.



Good point Nick, but don't forget that I too am the PDGA, and I think the collared shirt rule is foolish. So where does that get us now?

because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other.



Small point, but what I believe you meant to say was:
'because one thing follows another, it is held to be caused by the first thing. :eek:
As originally worded, the 'following thing' is perceived as the cause.

P.S.
How about this as a rule for now: All players must wear shirts?

"How about this as a rule for now: All players must wear shirts?"

Yes, please!

8.3 Dress Code
8.3.1 All players in PDGA sanctioned competitions are expected to dress
appropriately and maintain a clean and well-groomed appearance
at all Event sites and all associated functions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm, does that mean someone will recieve a courtsy violation if they didn't shower or brush their teeth the morning of an A tier event?

C-mon guys, this thread has gotten way out of hand. Are sleeves really that big of a deal? Baseball players wear sleeves, and many times 2 different sleeves (a 3/4 length undersleeve and the sleeve on their jersey) Do we really use our shoulder anymore than a MLB pitcher? Do they complain about having to wear a sleeve? The sleeve actually serves to keep their shoulder warm between throws and innings so they don't injure the joint. Is it going to kill us?

Now, here is the biggest question...I really like the mock turtleneck that Rooster pointed out to us. Is that going to be considered a collared shirt? Or because it doesn't have the little fold down pointy flaps it will not be considered legal? Tiger Woods wearing the mock turtleneck in some PGA events early brought up the same question to their rules commitee.

This rule is all about image and trying to find sponser dollars. Will it work? Who knows until we try it for a while. Quite frankly, we won't draw in the sponser dollars until we start getting more media coverage. When something as big as the 2004 World Championship doesn't even draw a 30second blip on SportsCenter then we're not gonna get sponsers. Heck, ESPN televised the entire finals of the spelling bee! Poker gets hours of TV coverage every week!

Nick, you constantly refer to 'we' and 'us' when talking about the implementation of the dress code. Was it your idea? Were you on the committee that approved it or recommended it? I'm curious to know.



It goes with "I am the PDGA" Dan. And yes, I was a part of the decision process: In the Membership Survey 2 or more years ago.



Good point Nick, but don't forget that I too am the PDGA, and I think the collared shirt rule is foolish. So where does that get us now?



Exactly where we are: With a dress code rule as written, but likely to be improved.

Sound about right?

No no! Its a big deal really. :D

BTW - My understanding is that the mock turtleneck is legit and if I ever play in an NT or at Worlds, that is my choice. They look very comfortable and, dare I say it, professional too.

I played world doubles in San Saba and the TD gave me the okay to wear the shirts with the little collars .

I was HOT

I was HOT



Was Ware playing in his shirt with little collars making you HOT or are you just reflecting outloud on bygone days? :p

------------------------------------------------------------

When something as big as the 2004 World Championship doesn't even draw a 30second blip on SportsCenter then we're not gonna get sponsers. Heck, ESPN televised the entire finals of the spelling bee! Poker gets hours of TV coverage every week!

[/QUOTE]

Saddly enough i was surfing on TV this weekend during the day and came across NOW GET THIS :eek: " The PUTT-PUTT Championships" :confused: from some CC in Florida. There was a gallery of like 10-20 people walking around following these guy's. They also had something like 100K bounty for 18 holes in 1, not sure did not watch it.

Sorry this is off-topic.
We now take you back to the Collared Shirt Thread.


I love to watch Poker almost as much as playing it. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

no, just hot

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When something as big as the 2004 World Championship doesn't even draw a 30second blip on SportsCenter then we're not gonna get sponsers. Heck, ESPN televised the entire finals of the spelling bee! Poker gets hours of TV coverage every week!



Saddly enough i was surfing on TV this weekend during the day and came across NOW GET THIS :eek: " The PUTT-PUTT Championships" :confused: from some CC in Florida. There was a gallery of like 10-20 people walking around following these guy's. They also had something like 100K bounty for 18 holes in 1, not sure did not watch it.

Sorry this is off-topic.
We now take you back to the Collared Shirt Thread.


I love to watch Poker almost as much as playing it. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/QUOTE]

"Bob, tell us about this hole."

"Chuck, every hole in Putt-Putt golf is par two. Back to you, Chuck!"

I shot a 55 at Walnut Ridge. I can tell you about it. Hehe.

I think it's pretty amusing that everyone is so up in arms about this dress code policy thing when there was more than 99.9% compliance with it.

There are other rules which are regularly violated and nobody is complaining about their abolishment with anything approaching the fervor that this thread has! :D

I watched about 54 holes of play per day by about 54 different cards worth of players in that period. I personally witnessed an average of 2-3 foot fault/stance violations per round. I never once saw any other player call a competitor on it.

Even more frequent than that however was a violation of the 30 second rule. I timed throwers on slow playing cards to see who the hold-ups were. In some cases, multiple players on the same card were taking over 1 minute to make their throws...in extreme cases, I would pull a player aside, tell them how long they took to throw and then remind them that they had 30 seconds.

One player (whom I talked with aside from the rest of his card) told me that he thought his 30 second time began when he actually dropped his marker disc in front of his disc.

If you are gonna complain about rules that need to be changed, then how about picking on one that is only casually observed/respected anyway? Sheesh!!!

I think if we all wore bikini's like they do in beach volleyball, we would soon be an olympic sport. From the pictures I've seen, I think MTL would at least draw some sort of freakish fettish type viewers.
Bikini tops would leave shoulders free, and the only problem would be wedgies and tan lines.
I bet if we played naked we would get tons of media coverage. Remember that guy in Berkely. He was just going to class, but because he was nekid he was all over the news. Can you imagine the response if everyone at Worlds had been nude. We would have gotten play all over the civilized world. :D

ching were you an official ? than maybe you should start calling the violations

One player (whom I talked with aside from the rest of his card) told me that he thought his 30 second time began when he actually dropped his marker disc in front of his disc.




Uhh, when do you think it starts?

<font color="red"> A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions. </font>

One player (whom I talked with aside from the rest of his card) told me that he thought his 30 second time began when he actually dropped his marker disc in front of his disc.




Uhh, when do you think it starts?

<font color="red"> A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions. </font>



Plus the #3 in that rule pretty much gives the benefit of the doubt to the player as long as the player is wise enough to say that he was all set to throw but then was distracted by *whatever*.

Berkely West Virginia :confused: :D

Berkely West Virginia :confused: :D

that'd be berekely springs prof ;)

I think the key to the abuse of this rule is what constitutes a "reasonable amount of time" to approach and mark your lie.

At least that's where I see it abused most.

Generally I find these sorts of things acceptable uses of time needed to approach and mark the lie;
Clearing sticks or debris to establish a mark
Actually walking and placing your equipment aside after the last player threw
Finding a way to get to and place a mark when there are severe obstacles (sticker bushes, etc)

In essence (at least IMO) your 30 seconds starts when it's your turn!! Give a little leeway for someone to get set, or a little more if there are obvious distractions like..... people walking in their line of site, talking, you know - overt distractions. A squirrel running across the road should not be considered a distraction, traffic - should only be given so much consideration - can't very well wait on the world - gotta just play eventually.

But walking up the fairway halfway to the hole, coming back and fussing about choosing a disc, and then walking up a minute after it's your turn to place your mark - is an abuse of this rule - and the one I see most often.

Not that I've played in that many tournaments, but I've never seen this rule abused. Must be the Advanced Masters thing, too laid back to care. :D

Advanced masters things.

If you can't see the basket, it doesn't matter where it is because you can't reach it anyway.

It takes too much energy to walk halfway up the fairway and back before you throw.

The faster you get to your lie and throw, the sooner you get off the course and into the air conditioning.

That's funny!

Speaking of Olympics, here's a news article with talk about disc golf in an Olympic village. Read more in the Whistler Question (http://www.whistlerquestion.com/madison%5CWQuestion.nsf/0/BF53F56A7EDBF51788256EFC00667B95?OpenDocument).

(Apparently they don't believe in the value of paragraphs.)

Several people keep comparing disc golf to "extreme sports". Get over it, disc golf is not "extreme". When a fat old guy can tear it up while dragging a cooler full of beer around with him, it's not an extreme sport. It's more like bowling. Or really, it's more like ball golf. You don't have to be in ridiculous good shape and you won't break bones or die when you screw up.

So we are not extreme.

We are a very good sport that requires much skill to do well at the higher levels. But we're not extreme.



When was the last time you saw Tiger Woods sprain his ankle because the tee box was messed up? Or get a thorn stuck in his arm because his ball landed in the thorn bushes? Or hurt his knee? Or break his hand? Or get poison ivy? To say that this sport is like ball golf is ridiculous. Disc golfers get many injuries due to the grueling courses that we play on, and the amount of physical abuse we put on our bodies. Maybe we should start designing our courses in the same fashion as the ball golfers. Take out the cactus and bushes and trees, heck let's just make all the holes with nothing but wide open fairways.

Maybe we should start designing our courses in the same fashion as the ball golfers. Take out the cactus and bushes and trees, heck let's just make all the holes with nothing but wide open fairways.




That's what Reese would love to see. :D :D :D

[side topic induced thread drift]
Well, Reese has a vision, and is working to realize that vision. You have to respect that even if you don't share his vision.
[/side topic induced thread drift]

When was the last time you saw Tiger Woods sprain his ankle because the tee box was messed up? Or get a thorn stuck in his arm because his ball landed in the thorn bushes? Or hurt his knee? Or break his hand? Or get poison ivy? To say that this sport is like ball golf is ridiculous. Disc golfers get many injuries due to the grueling courses that we play on, and the amount of physical abuse we put on our bodies. Maybe we should start designing our courses in the same fashion as the ball golfers. Take out the cactus and bushes and trees, heck let's just make all the holes with nothing but wide open fairways.



First off this is the worst comparison i have ever heard. Tiger Woods The BEST ball golfer in the world who is by the way in AMAZING shape and can bench like 300+ compared to EVER disc golfer ever to play the sport. Thats great. No maybe if you said when was the last time you saw A BALL GOLFER do yada yada yada then that might work but comparing Tiger to all disc golfers just doesnt cut it.


Second off if the Tee Box was messed up whoever sprained their ankle didnt do it becase they were playing Disc Golf they did it because the Tee Pad sucked. Ive seen ball golfers sprain an ankle because their spikes held to much or something of that nature. They didnt sprain the ankle because they were playing ball golf they did it because of a unforseen event.

Third off. You can hit a ball into some thorn bushes or trees or behind a power box. Ive seen a guy hit a shot that hit a power box and came back and hit him. Ive heard of guys hitting a root with a club in their swing and breaking a wrist.

Ball golfers get just as many injuries they just arent the same kind of injuries. Ball golfers get sprained wrist, they throw out there backs, they dislocate ribbed, they get caluses on thier hands just like we do from hitting to many balls. Disc Golfers do not put thier bodies threw that much more abuse then ball golfers.

Either way both of are sports just about EVERYONE can play and enjoy, but its just really hard to be great at it.


To say that this sport is like ball golf is ridiculous



To say this sport ISNT like ball golf is RIDICULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether you guys like it or not our sport is a spin off of balls golf and has thousands and thousands or parrallels, basically we play exactly the same sport we just use different tools to acomplish the same goal. We TEE OFF from and TEE and we play to a GREEN and we PUTT into a BASKET which we call a pole HOLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have FAIRWAYS and TREES and WATER HAZARDS and OUT OF BOUNDS. To say they are nothing alike is completely and utterly IGNORANT and impossible to understand.

Oh by they way i dont know what ball golf courses you have been to where ALL ther fairways are WIDE open and there are NO TREES and no WATER but they must be some pretty crappy courses and you must not watch ball golf that often because then you would know what your talking about which you obviously dont. I know for a fact that ball golfers get poison ivy too, what do you think its just grows on disc GOLF courses. I dont know but i think some ball golf courses have WOODS that you can hit into and thats usually where POISON IVY Grows. You think that some of our courses are grueling. Id like to see you carry a Ball Golf Bag for 18 holes and 5 hours around some of the BALL GOLF COURSES ive played and then tell me that disc golf is more physically abusive.

I definately would not call disc golf an extreme sport. I don't know where there are people doing so. The closest to extreme we can call it is hiking, and I don't believe i"ve seen hiking on the X games. There is nothing we can do in disc golf that can result in a catastrophic injury or death (unless it's a heart attack from missing a 5 ft putt to win a tourney) Injuries are a part of every sport, but that does not make every sport extreme. Lets just say disc golf isn't a mainstream sport and leave it at that.

I just returned from World�s and I have an issue to share with all of you. This year, there was a �dress code� instituted where all participants must wear a collared shirt with sleeves. Now any of you that know me know that I am a non-conformist rebel but in this instance I conformed. I bought 3 collared shirts for this World�s and wore them. In fact, I was going to support the PDGA by wearing collared shirts at all the tourneys I attend. NO MORE!!! What I found out was that it wasn�t enough. I am one who can not stand anything on my arms when I throw, I feel constricted. So I would pull the sleeves up when throwing and pull them back down when completed. I do however ALWAYS tuck my shirt tail in. In fact, I am basically a neat freak when it comes to my appearance. Every once in a while I would forget to pull one sleeve down but would correct this as soon as I realized. While playing on Walnut Ridge I was approached by one of the marshalls after I had thrown #16 and was told I needed sleeves!! I had forgotten to pull the left sleeve down but was only about 50 ft from the tee box. I pulled it down, confused, because I did have sleeves. My group continued to play and on #3 our flow of play was disrupted by the marshall to now give me a dress code warning. My group tried to explain that I pulled them down (in fact when we were approached my sleeves were down) to no avail. When I tried to speak to the TD, John Licksit, on that course he just copped an attitude and would not listen (big time power trip!!). I spoke with Dave Nezbitt and explained to him what had happened and that I had the 3 players on my card to backup my story. He told me it was a non-issue. Later that day, Dave called me back in to inform me that the TD and 2 marshalls said that I had played the whole round with my sleeves up. That was a complete lie!!! Now, they were able to see me for about 5-6 holes if that much. I decided to just let it go but was then informed by Dave that I was getting a courtesy violation for not telling him the truth, In essence, he called me a liar. He wasn�t interested in talking to the 3 players or anyone else. I was furious!!! I payed a lot of money and time to attend these World�s and support the PDGA and this is how I get treated!!! Apparently though, if you are a top Pro you can do anyting you want. During the Final Nine I observed several players with their shirts tails out. So if any of you out their think there is favortism, you are 100% correct. The PDGA is spending so much time trying to be like ball golf that they have lost sight of what DG is all about. You would think they are on the board of the PGA not PDGA. When an organization is tries to emulate another, they have no identity. That is exactly where we are headed. In my opinion, they are a bunch of whiny, self serving, self centered ego maniacs who are way too busy patting each other on the back to even care about the people in the PDGA. What they need to realize is that we are not golf and never will be. We need our own identity or we will never grow. They keep saying how many active members we have. We would probably have more but they continue to run people off. We have 7000+ active members but 25,000+ members. The PGA at least tries to retain their membership!! Truth is, DG is growing because of you and me, not the PDGA. As long as we continue to introduce mew people to the sport, it will grow in spite of the PDGA. I do have one idea on how to settle disputes. Since they won�t listen, we need an arbitration board to settle disputes with the PDGA. Now this board shouldn�t and can�t be appointed by the PDGA, not if we want them impartial. They should be elected by the membership to represent us since no one else does. I realize what they are trying to do but I think they are going about it the wrong way. I know that some of you out there are going to read this and say �why don�t you run for the board then?�. NO WAY!! I am self employed to avoid the crap you have to deal with in a corporation and this is no different. In closing, I would like to reiterate that we are not the PGA. In fact, the national spelling bee champion (12 yrs old) received $12,000 for winning a spelling bee. This year�s champ won $5300. What is wrong with this picture.



There are many funny stories of Cowboy's (marshall's) bossing the Indian's (us) around. And the even funnier instances where they end up spineless and call it a non-issue. Sorry, but the issue is, many Cowboy's, many powertrips. Give any man power, and I guarantee they will abuse it more than once. Thank god we don't elect cowboy's to run countries!!!!! :eek:

Not to mention that Tiger Woods has already had multiple surgeries to correct BALL GOLF injuries!!!
Notably, his knees.

Bottom Line:

Thirty seconds is not enough time. Period. No such rule exists in ball golf, for which we apparently have 'thousands' of parallels.
Re: "Thousands of parallels:" . I'd have to disagree. Disk golf has a few parallels to ball golf. Nowhere near thousands. I'd say it has thousands of non-parallels.
Here are a few:

How far can you throw a seven-iron?
When was the last time you hit a golf ball that curved left, straightened out, turned right, then finished by curving left?
How many clubs do you throw into water hazards?
How many clubs have you thrown into the street?
How many clubs have you lost in the woods?
How many golf balls have changed their behavior forever by hitting trees or landing hard?
How many edges does a golf ball have?
How many times do you need to use a different driver in ball golf?
How many times do you need to use a different ball in ball golf?

Bottom bottom line: The truth, again, is that there are at most, several similarities between ball golf and disk golf, and thousands of differences.

I bet one of the similarities between BG and DG is that they both started out with some freaks having fun out in the embrace of mother nature and then attracted elitist fools who think that having fun is more legitimate if everyone wears collared shirts.
Just a guess tho.

I bet one of the similarities between BG and DG is that they both started out with some freaks having fun out in the embrace of mother nature and then attracted elitist fools who think that having fun is more legitimate if everyone wears collared shirts.
Just a guess tho.



:D

if some rule makers wanna worrymore about a dress code then playing, it justshows you they care more about image then just playing.

How can you say "peace through disc golf" when you call people who want to play disc golf but would like to appear more mainstream "elitist fools"?

How far can you throw a seven-iron? Hitting a seven iron and throwing a Roc is the same thing
When was the last time you hit a golf ball that curved left, straightened out, turned right, then finished by curving left? NEVER but i have also never seen as DISC with a C do that either!!!!!!!!!
How many clubs do you throw into water hazards? 1 or 2 but you HIT alot of BALLS in the water which is the same as THROWING a disc in the water
How many clubs have you thrown into the street? Refer to the above answer
How many clubs have you lost in the woods? Again losing balls and losing discs is THE SAME THING
How many golf balls have changed their behavior forever by hitting trees or landing hard? ALOT MORE THEN YOU THINK. Im a ball golfer i would know
How many edges does a golf ball have? ALOT if you feel all the edges of the new Hex dimpled golf balls.
How many times do you need to use a different driver in ball golf? You use a different club on just about EVERY SHOT! Just like using a different disc
How many times do you need to use a different ball in ball golf? Whenever you hit a cart path with one or you lose one
Bottom bottom line: The truth, again, is that there are at most, several similarities between ball golf and disk golf, and thousands of differences. Actually there are THOUSANDS of similarities between ball golf and DISC golf you just cant seem to see them

How far can you throw a seven-iron? Hitting a seven iron and throwing a Roc is the same thing
When was the last time you hit a golf ball that curved left, straightened out, turned right, then finished by curving left? NEVER but i have also never seen as DISC with a C do that either!!!!!!!!!
How many clubs do you throw into water hazards? 1 or 2 but you HIT alot of BALLS in the water which is the same as THROWING a disc in the water
How many clubs have you thrown into the street? Refer to the above answer
How many clubs have you lost in the woods? Again losing balls and losing discs is THE SAME THING
How many golf balls have changed their behavior forever by hitting trees or landing hard? ALOT MORE THEN YOU THINK. Im a ball golfer i would know
How many edges does a golf ball have? ALOT if you feel all the edges of the new Hex dimpled golf balls.
How many times do you need to use a different driver in ball golf? You use a different club on just about EVERY SHOT! Just like using a different disc
How many times do you need to use a different ball in ball golf? Whenever you hit a cart path with one or you lose one
Bottom bottom line: The truth, again, is that there are at most, several similarities between ball golf and disk golf, and thousands of differences. Actually there are THOUSANDS of similarities between ball golf and DISC golf you just cant seem to see them






So many inaccuracies above I hardly know where to begin.
I have also played ball golf on and off for over 30 years.

Hitting a seven iron is nothing like throwing a Roc . A Roc will travel 90% of the distance of a driver for most players. This would mean you can hit your seven iron well over 200 yards.
Most golfers cannot do this.
As far as disc (with a 'c') goes, look up the definition of disc in any dictionary. The definiton is identical to the definition of disk.
You've 'NEVER' seen a disc describe a helix? Then you don't play much disc golf, apparently. I can throw the left, right, left curve at will, and I've only been playing a year.
Hitting a ball into water is similar to throwing a club into the water. If you are throwing 2 clubs in the water every round, then you clearly don't know how to play ball golf very well either. Yes, throwing a disc into the water is somewhat similar to hitting a ball into the water, but with consequences identical to throwing a club in the water!. Again, the disc is the ball is the club. How many clubs do you lose per round? Refer to the above answer, or the following one if you prefer.
Losing a disc in the woods is also FAR MORE like losing a CLUB in the woods. Doesn't happen in ball golf once in a hundred rounds. Can happen in any disc golf round.
Golf balls DO NOT have edges. THEY HAVE DIMPLES. Discs have an edge and also have flight plates and a wing. Golf balls DO NOT. Like the caps and bold lettering? Me neither.
Most players DO NOT use a different disc on 'every shot.' Driver, mid-range, putter and occaisionally a 'specialty' disc for opposite curves (anhyzer) or rollers.
Many pros carry lots of discs but more often than not their bags contain duplicates of their favorites because, unlike ball golf (one of thousands of differences between the two sports), THEY CAN LOSE OR DAMAGE THEIR DRIVERS (read CLUBS if you don't get it), etc. far more easily than can a ball golfer. How many drivers are in your ball golf bag? I mean the exact same club. A one wood, or Big Bertha or whatever you use. I'd bet it's one. Most disc players will have several of the exact same driver. Climo recommends carrying five. Are their five 'Big Berthas' in your bag? Five seven irons? NEVER. Yet another huge difference.
Discs are also FAR MORE EASILY altered by striking things than are golf balls. How many golf balls have their behavior permanently altered by hitting things? A LOT FEWER THAN DISCS, and with FAR LESS likelihood of damage! .
If golf balls were radically altered by striking things then HITTING THEM WITH CLUBS WOULD RUIN THEM! .

Just the fact that discs are thrown and golf balls are hit with clubs gives rise to thousands of differences between the two sports, not to mention the fact that a disc is a wing and a ball is a projectile, which, once again, immediately indicates thousands of differences.

There are A LOT (with a space) more differences between ball golf and disc golf than similarities. You just can't seem to see them.

you guys are wacko arguing about these so-called differences and similarities. balls + clubs = discs. end of story. not too hard to figure out.

ball and disc golf are the same game, just different manifestations of it. any differences are on the surface. the spirit of the game is identical.

thats why they are both called golf instead of discpong or ballminton.

And ice hockey is soccer. Except soccer uses a ball and you kick it and ice hockey uses a puck and you hit it with a stick and polo and water polo are the same except for the horses and...oh, never mind.

Are their more similarities between throwing a baseball and throwing a disc, or differences? How about hitting a baseball (or, come to think of it, a golf ball) versus throwing a disc?


/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I guess I'm just not so sure about this whole thread. How man other organized sports out there do not have dress codes? Why are we getting worked up about DG having one?

Discs are also FAR MORE EASILY altered by striking things than are golf balls. How many golf balls have their behavior permanently altered by hitting things? A LOT FEWER THAN DISCS, and with FAR LESS likelihood of damage! .
If golf balls were radically altered by striking things then HITTING THEM WITH CLUBS WOULD RUIN THEM! .





Actually for those of us that are good enough at ball golf to use balata cover balls sometimes striking them with the club does damage them. These kinds of balls are VERY easily damaged so badly that it alters their characteristics.

The similarities between the two games is in the rules. The penalties for things like OB, Lost ball/disc, forward hazard and lateral hazard are the same in both in most cases. Disc golf basically took the ball golf rule book and changed the wording to fit the sport.

Wether we want to admit it or not the two games are incredibly similar.

And ice hockey is soccer. Except soccer uses a ball and you kick it and ice hockey uses a puck and you hit it with a stick and polo and water polo are the same except for the horses and...oh, never mind.

Are their more similarities between throwing a baseball and throwing a disc, or differences? How about hitting a baseball (or, come to think of it, a golf ball) versus throwing a disc?

ice hockey and soccer are basically the same. and water and "regular" polo are definitely the same. prolly all fourarethegame not-so-deep down.

comparing baseball and discgolf is silly. well, no i take that back. comparing them is fine. deciding they are the same or even similar is silly. no one is trying to hit your disc over a fence. and no one is behind you trying to catch a hit disc. in baseball if you suck three times you have to sit down and let someone else try. in disc golf you have to keep on trying and trying. (la marka knows what i'm talking about! :D)

ball and disc golf are the same game, just different manifestations of it. any differences are on the surface. the spirit of the game is identical.



One major difference is that ball golf tends to be played by people from wealthier socio-economic backgrounds while disc golf appeals to persons from all ends of the socio-economic landscape. That's the great thing about disc golf. Requiring collars and creating pay-to-play courses is to misunderstand the things which are our sport's greatest strengths.

They are similar games. Not the same game.
To me, they are at least as different from one another as ice hockey is from basketball.

Some might argue, as above, that all the goal-based team sports (hockey, soccer, polo, lacrosse, etc.) are the same game. I wouldn't.

;)

I suppose it all comes down to one's point of view.
To me, a ball and a disc are tremendously different objects.
Add to that, hitting balls with sticks versus throwing discs
and I see vast differences.

I'm from the "When a ball dreams, it dreams it is a frisbee,"
school, and I see far more possibilities for a disc than for a ball. I therefore believe every aspect of the game should reflect these possibilities.
I agree, of course, that there are similarities and that disc golf
rules borrow heavily from ball golf rules. That fact in and of itself forces some similarities.
If all you look at are the rules (copied from ball golf) and the basic concept (move an object to a target with the least number of 'shots'), then yes, the games look similar.
If that's all you see, however, then you're not seeing much at all.
I guess one of my concerns is that if the differences between the sports are ignored by, or even worse, are invisible to some, then we may end up with courses designed for the wrong game.

Okay, now show me how to hit a cut-roller in ball golf again?
;)

How many ball golf tournaments play two rounds in a day? Ever look for a golf ball in sage brush (I'm a westerner) or tall grass for that matter. Ever ridden a ski lift to play ball golf down a mountain? (and back up too, unfortunately).

I got into this because of the free spirit of the game. The rule book crowd would like to drive me away because I'm keeping them off TV and away from the big paychecks. Because I like to have a beer in the parking lot after a couple of rounds. And I wouldn't mind wearing my Iowa Worlds T-shirt, that I got in my players package, while playing a tournament.

You pro disc golfers supporting the collared shirt rule should start picking on the 30 second rule. When did a pro ball golfer take 30 seconds or less to line up a tricky approach shot or any putt longer than 3 feet?

Don't care much for rules period. But rules sure help to make it a fair game. And you guys definitely want a rule to keep from seeing me without a shirt on. But my neck's not that bad - why do I need a collar? I don't even have to wear a collared shirt to work.

No shoes, no shirt collar, no service.

ok since the overlords that are teh pdga board force a dress code upon teh masses, is there a similer rule as to what can be PRINTED on teh shirt?

can people walk around with able image/saying?

How can you say "peace through disc golf" when you call people who want to play disc golf but would like to appear more mainstream "elitist fools"?


When were collared shirts "mainstream"?
And yes I call people who believe that a certain type of shirt is "better" than any other shirt elitist fools.
That "better than" complex is what creates elitism.

Secondly, "mainstream" does not equal peace. Neither does dictating that some clothes (or people wearing the clothes) are better than other clothes (or people wearing the other clothes).

So while I see no contradiction between my statement and my signature, I could still say it even if there was a contradiction. Just because a statement is inconsistent doesn't mean it can't be uttered.

I think we should get Victoria's Secret to be our official clothing sponsor, then we could all dress like MTL. :D

what the HELLL are you saying????
it hard to answer the jibberish you wrote :eek:

Hitting a seven iron is nothing like throwing a Roc . A Roc will travel 90% of the distance of a driver for most players. This would mean you can hit your seven iron well over 200 yards.
Most golfers cannot do this. Ok sorry maybe its like throwing a putter

As far as disc (with a 'c') goes, look up the definition of disc in any dictionary. The definiton is identical to the definition of disk. i dont really care the PDGA and the rest of the worlds spells it DISC GOLF

You've 'NEVER' seen a disc describe a helix? Then you don't play much disc golf, apparently. I can throw the left, right, left curve at will, and I've only been playing a year. So your telling me you can throw a disc that will HYZER then go straight then ANHYZER then HYZER again. Seems pretty unlikely to me and show me a hole you need it on

Hitting a ball into water is similar to throwing a club into the water. If you are throwing 2 clubs in the water every round, then you clearly don't know how to play ball golf very well either. I was CLEARLY joking. I dont throw clubs in the water.

Yes, throwing a disc into the water is somewhat similar to hitting a ball into the water, but with consequences identical to throwing a club in the water!. Again, the disc is the ball is the club. Actually hitting a ball in the water is more IDENTICAL to throwing a disc in the water then a Disc is to a club If you want to get into it thowing a club in the water is more like throwing your ARM in the water then a disc is to a club. You use your ARM to throw the disc just like you use a club to hit the ball
How many clubs do you lose per round? Refer to the above answer, or the following one if you prefer.

Losing a disc in the woods is also FAR MORE like losing a CLUB in the woods. Doesn't happen in ball golf once in a hundred rounds. Can happen in any disc golf round. Refer to above answer. Plus its nothing like losing a disc in the woods because like YOU said you carry multiples of every disc in YOUR bag. I myself do not. You must lose alot of discs if you have to carry multiples :o

Golf balls DO NOT have edges. THEY HAVE DIMPLES. Discs have an edge and also have flight plates and a wing. Golf balls DO NOT. Like the caps and bold lettering? Me neither. They have many edges. Does a golf ball feel like a marble to you. NO you can feel the EDGES of all the dimples

Most players DO NOT use a different disc on 'every shot.' Driver, mid-range, putter and occaisionally a 'specialty' disc for opposite curves (anhyzer) or rollers. So your telling me most player used the same disc they used on the tee for their up shot and the putt. I DONT THINK SO

Many pros carry lots of discs but more often than not their bags contain duplicates of their favorites because, unlike ball golf (one of thousands of differences between the two sports), THEY CAN LOSE OR DAMAGE THEIR DRIVERS (read CLUBS if you don't get it), etc. far more easily than can a ball golfer. We are also ALLOWED to carry any amount of discs that we want. Ball golfers can carry 14 clubs but as many BALLS as they want. Another reason a Disc is more like a ball instead of a club.

How many drivers are in your ball golf bag? I mean the exact same club. A one wood, or Big Bertha or whatever you use. I'd bet it's one. Most disc players will have several of the exact same driver. Climo recommends carrying five. Are their five 'Big Berthas' in your bag? Five seven irons? NEVER. Yet another huge difference. If we and when i say we i mean BALL GOLFERS were allowed to carry 36 clubs im sure people would carry more then one driver. Maybe not the exact same one but another driver. I dont carry 2 of the EXACT same discs in my bag anyway because its too much weight AND i dont plan on losing them during a round

Discs are also FAR MORE EASILY altered by striking things than are golf balls. How many golf balls have their behavior permanently altered by hitting things? A LOT FEWER THAN DISCS, and with FAR LESS likelihood of damage! .
If golf balls were radically altered by striking things then HITTING THEM WITH CLUBS WOULD RUIN THEM! .
Refer to later post about Balata golf balls. Actually they dont even have to be balata i have scuffed covers with my wedges on all golf balls. One different thing is the more exspensive the golf BALL is the easier it is to mess it up where as the more exspensive the DISC is the more durable it is. There you go theres one DIFFERENCE

If being an elitest fool will get tournament payouts up to even $10,000 for a A tier first place finish then i will gladly be an elitest fool.

Ive said it a hundred times and ill say it again. We have to look proffesional to be taken seriously as proffesionals.