or we could redefine what it means to look professional!

What does wearing a nice shirt have to do with being an elitist? This really is silly. These are our premiere events folks should want to look decent. Consider all the hard work the organizers put in to run these events and dress accordingly. It's not elitist it's just showing a little respect for the organizers, other players, sponsors, pdga and on some level yourself.

Nick, you keep conflating the issue that the only way to look decent is to wear a collared shirt.

What has been repeatedly stated (and oft ignored by the 'You Must Wear A Collared Shirt to Look Professional' crowd) is that their are other options that make more sense for our sport..options that would allow players to look 'decent' and be unrestricted and comfortable.

Collared shirts are unrestricting AND comfortable. Anyone who says different is not wearing the right size or just has a mental problem with collared shirts.

BOTTOM line is. If you are a good golfer in a sleevless shirt then youll be a good golfer in a collared shirt but you will look better. Chances are if you cant play well in a collared shirt then you prolly cant play very well in a sleeveless shirts either. The difference is even if you cant play well in a collared shirt atleast you'll look good. When you play bad in a sleevless shirt you look even more like a hack.

Collared shirts are the way to go :D

Nick, you keep conflating the issue that the only way to look decent is to wear a collared shirt.

What has been repeatedly stated (and oft ignored by the 'You Must Wear A Collared Shirt to Look Professional' crowd) is that their are other options that make more sense for our sport..options that would allow players to look 'decent' and be unrestricted and comfortable.



I didn't mention "collard shirts" and our standards allow for other options already. I am more than willing for the PDGA to consider additional options but maintain a professional and decent look for our sport. But let's stop this name calling and bickering and get down to the real issue:

DO WE WANT TO PROJECT A MORE PROFESSIONAL IMAGE AT OUR PREMEIRE EVENTS?
DOES THE GOVERNING BODY OF OUR ASSOCIATION HAVE A MANDATE TO PURSUE SUCH A GOAL?
AND ON A PERSONAL LEVEL: DO YOU TAKE PRIDE IN HOW YOU PRESENT YOURSELF AT THESE PREMEIRE EVENTS?

This is not �elitist� anymore than wanting to look decent and respectable when you go to church, temple or mosque.

I�ve always advocated education over penalties. Getting folks to �want� to have pride in themselves is far more effective than making �rules� to force them to comply. But at this stage of our development, where standards are being created from nothing, �rules� can help to form a new desire to look more professional and decent.

Seriously, if you can not afford to, or can not find the motivation to, or become aware of the reasons behind to look decent at PDGA Worlds, Majors, National and Super Tours, then chances are you should not be playing in them. This is not �elitist� it is �practical�.

One major difference is that ball golf tends to be played by people from wealthier socio-economic backgrounds while disc golf appeals to persons from all ends of the socio-economic landscape.



That is so untrue it isn't even funny. Ball golf appeals to all ends too, and in much bigger way to many more people. Just because rich people get the ball golf bug and build amazing private clubs that regular people can't play on doesn't mean that you local muni isn't overflowing with "regular guys" drinking beer and belching while having an infuriatingly good time whacking that little white ball.

There are a lot of "disc golfer" types playing ball golf.

ya know, if reality shows would have a dress code i am 100% positive that they would FINALLY get the SPONSORSHIP dollars and WORLDWIDE VISIBILITY their genre deserves!

:D

ya know, if reality shows would have a dress code i am 100% positive that they would FINALLY get the SPONSORSHIP dollars and WORLDWIDE VISIBILITY their genre deserves!

:D



Good one! Boy that really shows us now doesn't it?

They are selling sex and youth Pat, we are selling a sport we hope will someday join other mainstream sports.

There are a lot of "disc golfer" types playing ball golf.



One of the great things about our sport is i dont really believe it has a certain TYPE. ANYONE can be a disc golfer. Your surgeon or dentist or lawyer or local police officer or teacher or ANYONE you know could be a disc golfer.

Disc golf brings the Hippies and the Yuppies together.

Also ANYONE can be a ball golfer also its just the courses that seperate the different people not the sport.

There are a lot of "disc golfer" types playing ball golf.



One of the great things about our sport is i dont really believe it has a certain TYPE. ANYONE can be a disc golfer. Your surgeon or dentist or lawyer or local police officer or teacher or ANYONE you know could be a disc golfer.

Disc golf brings the Hippies and the Yuppies together.

Also ANYONE can be a ball golfer also its just the courses that seperate the different people not the sport.



WORD!

One major difference is that ball golf tends to be played by people from wealthier socio-economic backgrounds while disc golf appeals to persons from all ends of the socio-economic landscape.



That is so untrue it isn't even funny. Ball golf appeals to all ends too, and in much bigger way to many more people. Just because rich people get the ball golf bug and build amazing private clubs that regular people can't play on doesn't mean that you local muni isn't overflowing with "regular guys" drinking beer and belching while having an infuriatingly good time whacking that little white ball.

There are a lot of "disc golfer" types playing ball golf.



If you'll revisit my point it was that golf in general is played by people from a wealthier socio-economic background than those who play less expensive sports. When I was growing up my family's economics made getting a set of ball golf clubs out of the question. It also made paying to play golf out of the question when sports like baseball, basketball, hockey, or frisbee were less expensive options. There are many, many people in America who will find the costs of playing ball golf comparatively prohibitive relative to disc golf. The attire worn by ball golfers has been influenced by that and to say that playing ball golf without a collar is unprofessional smacks of institutionalized classism (though not intentional, it is still there).

And as to Nick's point that we should not mind looking 'nice' to promote a professional image -- looking 'nice' does not necessitate a collared shirt. While a professional image can be harmed by wearing clothes which look ragged or have derogatory messages on them, the real way to promote the professionalism of disc golf players is by behavior on the course, and defining what types of behaviors are unacceptable. A criminal in nice clothes is still a criminal. In fact white collar crooks are in many ways far more disgusting than blue collar ones.

And as to Nick's point that we should not mind looking 'nice' to promote a professional image -- looking 'nice' does not necessitate a collared shirt.



And now, FOR THE THIRD TIME, I did not say that it did. It is one option that is generally accepted as "looking nice" and it is also one option within the current dress code. More can and should be added.

This does not undermine the stated goal of improving our image at our ultimate events.

the powers that be have probably decided on collared shirts for more than the reason that they have a collar. How many people are going to cut the sleeves off of their collared shirts? Or split them all the way up the sides? How many collared shirts have a "Big Johnson" theme, or some kind of legalize marajuana slogan? Even when they do have such logo's they are small and not very noticable.

It wasn't to long ago that everyone on this board was mad that Maxim put out an article saying that disc golfers were a bunch of pot smoking hippies, now everyone is up in arms that we're having to look like yuppies! We can't have it both ways guys.

Do I agree that collared shirts are the only way to go...no. But I also don't mind wearing them at NT events. We do have to keep in mind that the dress code ONLY applies at the very highest of events.

Im sorry if you think im trying to say that if you dont wear a collared shirt you look poor. Thats not what im saying at all. Your trying to turn it into that.

Not just RICH people wear collared shirts. That is a form of classism also. ANYONE and EVERYONE wears collared shirts. Not just RICH and high class people as you seem to believe. Wearing a collared shirt is an easy and clear cut way to look proffesional when playing and idividual sport. Its not border line. It is accepted as proper and proffesional attire in Tennis Ball Golf and Now Disc Golf which i think it should be. If you think im an A hole for saying that then so be it.

You say we need to work on our attitude and behavior on the course. That may be true but thats not an overnight thing. That will take time to fix. Dressing proffesional is a much easier thing to fix. It CAN happen overnite. The PDGA says you all have to wear collared shirts at A Tiers Super Tours NT and majors starting tomorrow or you will be sent home and BOOM everyone is doing it. You say hey all you ACEHOLES out there need to clean up your behavior or we might catch you doing something then give you a warning then maybe even stroke you then if your dumb enought to get caught again we might suspend you but the chances of that are HIGHLY UNLIKELY people are going to be like "Yeah ok whatever you say pal ill keep smoking dope and drinking all i want during sactioned events."

The looking proffesional is alot easier to control then the acting proffesional. I think its a step in the right direction and its better to have one and not the other then to have nothing at all.

You talkin' to me?

When my kid was playing baseball, cleats and bats and baseball pants were expensive. League fees at any level (pee-wee through high school) had to cover the cost of the umps. High school cost even more as you had to pay transportation fees and pay for the umps. Nothing cheap about baseball.

A used set of clubs at Play it Again sports is cheap. The few ball golf courses I've looked at have really cheap greens fees for juniors. You can't play Rancho Sante Fe without joining the club, but Emerald Isle is there for anyone to play.

No ball golf isn't free, but neither is any other sport you play.

ou talkin' to me?



Nope im talking to the people who think only RICH high class people wear collared shirts.

Had to throw this into the mix...
Overall, the IQ of bowlers is higher than that of ball golfers. So where do we fit in?
Blue/white collar vs. NO collar! :o:D /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I think he's been hanging out at different bowling alleys or golf courses than I have.

The standard bowling shirt has a collar.

The fact that society has accepted the collard shirt as something that looks nice is out of our control. Unless we have billions of dollars for a mass media campaign to change the opinion of society, that's just the way it is.

More proof:

Bowling is on TV with sponsored tournaments.

Bowlers wear collared shirts.

Collared shirts = TV coverage and sponsor dollars. :D

Collared shirts = TV coverage and sponsor dollars.

good one!

sex & youth = sponsorship dollars
music & audience = sponsorship dollars

so whaddya say we eliminate the OMBs, and make the youngsters play nude doubles while dancing to the righteous dub groove? :D

MRV thread on* 'Boiled "Collard" greens' fees...' *MRV thread off
Huh huh.

Lets say Russel Athletics or some other major athletic clothing company wants to sponsor our tour and throw hundreds of thousands of dollars into our sport. In doing so, they say every player needs to wear their t shirts or tank tops.

Do you collared shirt supporters really think it would make disc golf look less professional and hurt our image to not wear collars? Even with major sponsorship?

I think we need to keep a more open mind about this.

Professionalism is not what you wear, it is how an organization and its players act and carry themselves as a group.

Getting back to the hypothetical scenerio of a 'tanktop' tour.....Does anybody really believe the PDGA would turn down hundreds of thousands of dollars because they wanted collared shirts on the players... NO Way!

Think about it, what really are our priorities?

Think about it, what really are our priorities?



Cleaning up our reputation with home owners associations and the park and rec departments.

so come up with a bonafide deal with Russell for a tanktop tour and lets finds out. its too easy to make up hypotheticals.

Who in their right minds would want to see ALL disc golfers in tank tops.

I mean seriously. Russel would take one look at our player base and MAKE a collared shirt so it would have to see some or our players in tank tops.

Second if someone wants to sponsor us i dont think they are going to say you have to wear tank tops. Budweiser and the beer companies dont say you HAVE to drink beer while you play. Sponsor understand that there are RULES and they wouldnt ask us to go against our rules.

Thats just my opinion i could be wrong. BUT IM NOT :o

Here we go again. I won't quote the whole of the posts again
as it's becoming tedious for everyone.
Many disc golfers can throw their 'putters' over 300 feet. I've seen pros tee off with them on shorter holes. This never happens in ball golf! It is, obviously, to me, a big difference between the sports.
Yes. I can throw a disc that will start out hyzer, flatten out, turn over to the right and finish left.
It's called a helix (for the nth time).
I'm beginning to think I'm dealing with someone who knows very little about playing disc golf. Do you play at all?
Where do you 'need' it? Take me to any wooded disc golf course and I'll show you several holes where it would come in handy. Half the holes at Oak Grove come to mind.
I can't seem to say this clearly enough for you to grasp the next point. Throwing a disc in the water, or losing it in the shule is the EQUIVALENT of losing a golf club! Okay, yes, you've also lost a 'ball.' You no longer have your favorite driver or mid-range or seven-iron or whatever for the rest of round! THE DISC IS THE BALL AND THE CLUB. Again, there is no such incident in ball golf.
I won't even address the issue of 'throwing your arm in the water' as it is so idiotic it smacks of desperation.
I NEVER said I carry 'multiples of every disc' in my bag.
Your lack of accurate observational skills seems to extend to reading what's in front of you. What I did say was that many pros carry duplicates of discs in their bags. Lots of them carry 20 discs or more. I don't. I carry anywhere from 2 to 11 discs depending on what I'm doing that round. If I lose my mid-range disc, that CLUB is gone for the round. Oh, yes, also that 'ball' is gone too.
You want to equate dimples on a ball to edges on a disc? Go ahead. A golf ball is a sphere with dimples on it. It does not have an edge. Look up edge in the dictionary. Spheres don't have edges. Yet another of the myriad of differences.
Most players do not use a different disc for every shot. I cannot make that clearer. Again, you need to learn to read
and retain more accurately. I did not say they use the same disc they used on the tee for their up shot and the putt (although in fact, they sometimes do).You said that. I often use the same disc for driving, upshot and putt, now that you mention it. I've even played whole rounds with one disc, as have many disc golfers. What I actually said was "driver, mid-range, putter and occaisionally a 'specialty' disc." On shorter holes, some players use a putter or mid-range. Period. One disc (club/ball) from teepad to basket. Another huge difference. Try teeing off in ball golf with your putter, or even better, try chipping with a putter from mid-fairway. More differences.
No matter how you choose to describe it, a ball is not a disc. I've already tried (apparently without getting through) to explain that yes, a disc is [b]THE BALL AND THE CLUB.
As to the Balata ball issue, yes you can damage them if you 'crease' them with an iron or if they hit cement or metal.
I always liked the feel of a Balata for the short game.
However, damaging a golf ball is not the same as damaging a disc. Damage your disc and you've essentially LOST THE PROPER USE OF ONE OF YOUR 'CLUBS!!!' (sigh, do I have to say it again?) AND a ball.
All of the above represent just a few of the differences between the two sports.

Okay, now show me how to hit a tomahawk with a 5-iron again? (You're probably not aware of it, but this shot also starts left, curves right and finishes a bit left).
:cool:

Tip of the iceberg.

Okay, now show me how to hit a tomahawk with a 5-iron again? (also starts left, curves right and finishes left).



Unless you are a moron, you can easily see that the ball-stick dynamic is very different from the disc-arm dynamic, so of course there won't be a one-to-one exact correspondance between every shot in one version of golf with a shot in the other version.

But since the modern tomahawk/thumber shot is an up-and-over shot, isn't there something called a "knock-down shot" in ball golf that is basically the equivalent? You hear about that shot when it's windy. I don't know that much about ball golf shots, but I think it is close.

Get the toy from point A to point B. The person who does it with the least amount of shots wins.

MiniBigArm:

Yaay! Finally, an affirmation, of sorts. Of course the ball-stick dynamic is vastly different from throwing a disc!
In fact, hitting something with a stick versus throwing anything already implies huge differences. Part and parcel of what I've been arguing.
One of the many many differences in the details of the two sports.
A knock-down shot in golf is a shot designed to fly lower than a normal shot and is used for (you were right) windy conditions or when there are low branches between the golfer and the target (green). It is usually accomplished by having the ball back a bit in your stance and 'hitting it fat' with an iron so that it travels in more of a line drive than a high arc.
There is no equivalent in ball golf to a tomahawk or thumber.
You can't make a golf ball fly that pattern. That's why I signed off with the mention of it. ;)

I also agree with the moron comment. :D

Nobody said anything about having to wear only tank tops.......anyway you're missing the point, which is IF the pdga was presented an offer like this Im betting we would change the rules in a second allowing players to wear tanks, t's, collared shirts, or any other respectable athletic attire furnished by the sponsor and it wouldnt jeopardize our integrity as a sports organization one bit.

Sure it's easy to make up this hypothetical situation but is'nt it a credible way of thinking about the major sponsor issue in a different shade of light?

Seems like the athletic clothing market could be one of the major target areas for the pdga to pursue in their quest for major sponsorship. One could argue that the collared shirts rule is limiting the potential for this to happen.

Just my two cents - aloha

...looking 'nice' does not necessitate a collared shirt.



Are you arguing that the rule should be changed to "Look nice"?

Great, so now you'll have officials and TDs telling you what their version of nice is, all with different opinions, and no one will know what attire will be deemed acceptable until the player's meeting. Unless you want a list of acceptable clothing listed on the flyer.

Your problem is with set theory, anyway. All the PDGA is saying is that within the universe of all possible types of clothing, "nice" clothing comprises one set, and collared shirts for the most part are contained within that set. So the chances are good that if you wear a collared shirt, then you're wearing something "nice". You're saying because there are other types of "nice" clothing, then those types should be listed in the rule, as well. I assume cross-referenced with body type, height and percentage of body hair.

Look, the PDGA is just trying to keep things simple, but still provide a guide for proper attire. That's it. They're not a band of slayers, and you're not a vampire being force-fed garlic and holy water.

Sorry for the rant. Also for the Buffy-rerun-itis I apparently have.

Here's a slightly 'outside the box' thought. When I was a kid (a million years ago), short-sleeved collared stretchy fabric shirts were called 'golf shirts.' Many of them were designed for the sport itself and still are. Eventually, they became known as polo shirts. I guess polo and golf are basically...oops, never mind.
Maybe someday someone will design a 'disc-golf' shirt? A bit looser or flexible in the shoulder area perhaps? Lighter weight materials, like track and field shirts?
Until the evolution of the sport catches up with the actualities, why not simply require a shirt with sleeves?

Just an attempt at mitigational thinking.

I'm reminded of the time I went to a job interview. It was a group of hopeful interviewees in one training session. I happened to be the only male in attendance, and also had the longest hair. I was asked to cut my hair, but none of the women were. Granted my hair was longer (by about two inches) than the other interviewees, but when I asked if they had to cut their hair all I got was a funny look.

Now, I thought I looked very nice. Clean shaven, hair braided neatly, nice COLLARED SHIRT, good pants and nice shoes. My nails were trimmed and clean and I didn't have any piercings or tattoos. But, apparantly, nice, is a subjective word, and what looked nice to me, didn't look nice to the guy doing the hiring. In fact, having a COLLARED SHIRT on didn't make me appear any more professional in his eyes.

So, are we (the pdga) going to require hair cuts also?
So that we (the pdga) look professional? and nice?

All a dress code does is disrespect the judgement of the pdga's member base. It's like saying, no, you might be an adult, but we can't trust you to dress yourself.

I know I'm elitist to think that I can dress myself, but hey, thats just the way it is when your the shnipple like me.

are you allow to have what ever saying/logo/icon/image on teh shirt?

yes.

I was just shopping at some sporting goods stores for dryfit collared shirts and found a ton of them for under $30, some as low as $12.

The clothes that look the best suited for disc golfers were the tennis and soccer stuff. The golf stuff was off the charts expensive $55 and up (and looked heavy to boot). Someday, there hopefully will be a section for Disc Golf stuff.

It would be interesting to look at the professional dress codes of these sports, particularly tennis. Maybe we could get Linds to wear those high boots sneakers Serena wore the other week. Heck! Susi I'm sure would jump at the chance! :D

:D

I'm beginning to think I'm dealing with someone who knows very little about playing disc golf. Do you play at all?




No i dont play disc golf. Thats why i got 21st at worlds and 10th at Brent Hambrick and 5th at DGLO and I am Playing Am Nationals and i just Tied for 1st in a Northern Waters series. Your right though i must not play golf. Nice call on that one. REAL SMART. You might have wanted to look at my stats before you started talking out of your ACE.

Im done arguing with you because it is pointless. You have no clue what is going on and if you want to think that Disc golf and ball golf are different then go ahead and think that. THEY ARE THE SAME SPORT with different TOOLS. END OF STORY!!!!!!!!


By the way, in a PGA tournament you are only allowed to carry 6 balls



By the way nice try but your WRONG again. My dad just happens to work as a Marshall at the WESTERN OPEN. Actually he handed the WINNER his check this year. I think that MIGHT be a PGA event. I also think he would know a little better then YOU how many balls you can carry. You are allowed to carry a 1000 balls if you want. The tricky thing would be getting a caddy to let you put that many in the bag he was carrying. They all have to be the SAME ball but you can carry as many as you want. How IRONIC cuz you can carry as many DISCS as you want also. Another reason a disc is like a ball and not a club :D

Here's a slightly 'outside the box' thought. When I was a kid (a million years ago), short-sleeved collared stretchy fabric shirts were called 'golf shirts.' Many of them were designed for the sport itself and still are. Eventually, they became known as polo shirts. I guess polo and golf are basically...oops, never mind.
Maybe someday someone will design a 'disc-golf' shirt? A bit looser or flexible in the shoulder area perhaps? Lighter weight materials, like track and field shirts?
Until the evolution of the sport catches up with the actualities, why not simply require a shirt with sleeves?



That would be refreshing, but unfortunately some want disc golf to be as similar to ball golf as possible, and just as restrictive when it comes to acceptable attire. Even sports which used to require neckties and dress shirts (tennis) are starting to see the times they are a changing. And you can bet the savy sponsors will want to hawk the 'new' clothes rather than ask the WTA to restrict the freedom of tennis athletes to think outside the box of dress code norms.

Having a conniption over this issue is just silly.
We have a dress code for Majors and NT event.
It is the first dress code in our nearly 25 year history as a sport.
It is an attempt to make these events more presentable to sponsors and the mainstream.
It is not a perfect dress code and we will surely continue to improve on it.
We need a dress code at this level.
The PDGA BOD knows it.
The TDs of these events know it.
The Top PDGA Players know it.
Now you know it.
If you don�t like it, then do not play PDGA Majors or NTs.
That or hold your nose, dress accordingly, and play your 1 or 2 Majors/NTs a year.
This is not a class issue.
This is not a freedom issue.
This is a sport trying to better position itself issue.

In this thread, cbdiscpimp has been on the side supporting collared shirts.

In this thread, cbdiscpimp has been on the side supporting collared shirts.



And I have been on the side of calming down.

YES I HAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D

And i will continue to do so.

Thats why i got 21st at worlds and 10th at Brent Hambrick and 5th at DGLO and I am Playing Am Nationals and i just Tied for 1st in a Northern Waters series.



Bagger.

on a side note:

tiger woods' dry fit shirts are the bomb! you can find it all on ebay. less than 25 each.

maybe you should see if Ebay has some game you could buy. :D

i found one last weekend. for one round at least. now for the whole tourney, i still need help. :D

stillwater tick tock tick tock.. :eek:

Disc Golf Association Announces New Dress Code

(AP)(UPI)

The Professional Disc Golf Association (PDGA) today announced a new dress code ruling, to take effect immediately, that all players in its sanctioned tournaments must at all times wear clean, well fitting, and tasetful underwear. Players will be susceptible to spot inspections, with those violating the rules risk expulsion from sanctioned tournaments.

"This is an important step for marketing our sport" said PDGA spokesman Mark Eting Guru. "We have players leaning over to mark their discs, and we don't think we can get more television exposure when so many players are showing the 'cracks' in their games."

Reaction from surveyed players was mixed, but mostly negative.

"When I drive, I need to let it all hang out," said PDGA pro Johnny Rebel, "It's hard to really rip a drive when you feel something pulling on your...well, you know."

Several players were also critical of the perceived inconsistencies of the new rule and questioned how it could be enforced.

"There are more male marshalls than female marshalls, so the likelihood that women players will be tested for compliance gives them an unfair advantage said PDGA player Ronald "Red" Iculus.

At the first tournament after the new ruling, the Dumbtown Disc Duel, PDGA player Lance Literal played the first six holes with his Fruit of the Loom boxers as a headband, arguing that nothing in the rules stated "where" he had to wear the underwear. His playing partner, who asked not to be named, preferred wearing his BVD briefs over his sweat-pants, allowing him to more quickly remove them when he was driving and put them back on after he had thrown. Both players were told by tournament marshalls that they were not in compliance and played the remainder of their round under protest.

PDGA player Andy Amateur expressed skepticism that the rules would be enforced at local tournaments. "My local course doesn't have restrooms near the course, and with the amount of beer I drink in a round...well, I need to get in and out of the bushes quick."

The most often repeated question would be who would determine if the underwear was "clean" and at which point the cleanliness check would be made. "They have their favorites," a golfer who asked to remain anonymous said, "and they'll check them at the start of the round. After two rounds of 18 holes in 90 degree humidity, I defy anyone to show me 'clean' underwear. Instead of the prize money going to the best golfer, it will go to the one with the best deodorant. Plus, this rule is blatant discrimination against those of us who sweat more. The PDGA is prejudiced against fat and/or slovenly golfers, and there are more of us than there are of them. They say they want to broaden their player base and then pull this."

PDGA spokesman Mark Eting Guru acknowledged that, like most rules, the new underwear regulations will take some getting used to, but he argues in the long run, the sport will be the better for it. "We envisage the day when one of our players, not a retired basketball player, is the spokesperson for Hanes--remember its important to look good if we want to replace Dodgeball on ESPN8 (The Ocho)."
<font color="red"> </font>

will free-balling be given a courtesy warning, first?

not when all that seperates those from common view is a thin, flimsy layer of cotton

-and I thought it was on at 4:34 a.m. on the 'Niner'

Kenneth Morefield for PDGA Communications Director!

:D

Kenneth Morefield for Underwear Inspector General!

His campaign slogan: I'll show you mine if you show me yours!

:D

Kenneth Morefield for PDGA Communications Director!

:D



I second that.

I think I like this Ken guy.

Last week I turned down the opportunity to marshal the women's nationals due to a prior commitment. I may now have to rethink that! :cool:

Last week I turned down the opportunity to marshal the women's nationals due to a prior commitment. I may now have to rethink that! :cool:



I think you should have Kenneth as Vice Director of Communications. :D

Holy Crap! That is maybe the best thing I have ever read on this discussion board. Thank you Kenneth for interjecting some humor into this argument. You should take over Dave Berry's job.
Excellent post! :D

Nick, I have to agree with you. In my first two Worlds I played in tank tops as well as just about everyone else. In my last two Worlds I have worn collared shirts. Their are still plenty of C and B Tiers as well as some Southern Nationals where the dress code is more lax. If you don't want to look good playing when its Prime Time then simply just don't play at this level. I bought a dry fit shirt in Iowa and I'm planning on buying quite few more. They really are comfortable to play in

We have a dress code for Majors and NT event.
It is the first dress code in our nearly 25 year history as a sport.
It is an attempt to make these events more presentable to sponsors and the mainstream.
It is not a perfect dress code and we will surely continue to improve on it.



In order to facilitate comfort and ease of motion, choosing not to enforce the shirts "should" be tucked rule makes sense, and I applaud the PDGA for allowing shirts to remain untucked at Worlds this year. Consistent with that approach, it seems to me requiring shirts to have sleeves, but *not* penalizing those players who choose to roll up those sleeves for comfort and / or ease of motion makes good sense. If the sleeves rule remains in place, I hope the rules committee decides not to penalize those who roll up their sleeves while playing a course in future competitions.

In order to facilitate comfort and ease of motion, choosing not to enforce the shirts "should" be tucked rule makes sense, and I applaud the PDGA for allowing shirts to remain untucked at Worlds this year.


I have been wearing collared shirts whenever I play for the last couple of years, but never tucked them in and thought it would be a problem. I started tucking them in a couple of weeks before Worlds. I played with my shirt tucked in for every round at Worlds and noticed absolutely no difference in comfort or ease of motion.

Rob, have you actually tried playing in a tucked-in collared shirt? I too was opposed to the tucking, figuring that there was no way it wouldn't be too restrictive. Until I actually tried it. Again, it was no problem whatsoever for me.

In order to facilitate comfort and ease of motion, choosing not to enforce the shirts "should" be tucked rule makes sense, and I applaud the PDGA for allowing shirts to remain untucked at Worlds this year. Consistent with that approach, it seems to me requiring shirts to have sleeves, but *not* penalizing those players who choose to roll up those sleeves for comfort and / or ease of motion makes good sense. If the sleeves rule remains in place, I hope the rules committee decides not to penalize those who roll up their sleeves while playing a course in future competitions.



What penalty was imposed on players this year, a courtesy violation :confused:

A Warning :D) LOL

Beat Me, Tie me up and make me cry uncle. That's a punishment, well to most people anyway! ) A warning is not a punishment/penalty in my book. It's just a warning. Strokes! That's a penalty. What do I miss about the word warning that is so punishing :confused:) People getting so bent out of shape for a warning instead of taking it for what it is intended to be, a WARNING!

Somone please fill me in on this new type of punishment called a warning, because I sure don't want to get it if it causes such an outcry from the masses :D:o

Controversy over collars, now that's something to debate. Didn't this thread start over a WARNING! /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif It has gotten so far from that issue that Morefield interjected some good humor and nobody cares about the originator of the thread, until robj.

maybe the upper pdga board members are in some kind of shadow deal with teh collared shirt makers. :)

Rhett, I have played with a tucked-in shirt but not a tucked-in, collared shirt. In addition to being less restrictive, I also find an untucked shirt cooler in the summer. Psychologically I find collars and mandated tucked-in shirts uncomfortable too. In the winter though, tucking in is okay with me. :D

I think it is important to remember that even if the dress code is revised to enable those who find the present dress code too restrictive -- a majority of NT players will still wear collars and sleeves. Its the peace of mind of the presently uncomfortable few that I am trying to remedy.

It has gotten so far from that issue that Morefield interjected some good humor and nobody cares about the originator of the thread, until robj.



so, are you of the opinion that Kenneth posted with only a humorous interlude in mind, or that he was making fun of the whole notion of a dress code?

I think he was poking fun at all of this and anything taken to an extreme. A hyperbole on Dress codes I believe, but since english was my worst subject and it's been a couple decades since I was in an English class, it may just be an exaggerated satirical piece, but funny none the less. :cool:

After reading his piece, I was immediately compelled to give him 5 stars :D

I think the heart of this issue is that people don't want "those in charge" to tell them what to do. So many of the readers think that it is absurd that this is an argument at all. Some others are deeply hurt by the idea of wearing a collared shirt. If the rules are changed, there will still be controversy because no matter what the rule is there will still be people who do not agree with it and will continue to rebel against the notion of a dress code.
So I would say to the BOD, in the words of my most favorite Info-mercial guru (Ron Popeil) when referring to his Rotisserie grill, "Just set it, and forget it".

After reading his piece, I was immediately compelled to give him 5 stars :D



;) :D Very FUNNY :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :cool:




But will it be an overexageration in the near future????

Let's hope the PDGA is more responsive than a 'set it and forget it' approach would entail. Andy Roddick was wearing a shirt today that looked comfortable to me. Was *that* considered a mock collar? If so, maybe the dress code should be re-written to say "higher end t-shirts will be acceptable" :D

........ If the rules are changed, there will still be controversy because no matter what the rule is there will still be people who do not agree with it and will continue to rebel against the notion of a dress code.


Then to impose a dress code is to incite a confrontation between a system and a player.




........in the words of my most favorite Info-mercial guru (Ron Popeil) ........"Just set it, and forget it".


The perfect consumers solution :D

I don't know about you guys but when I finally make it around to my first sanctioned tourney I plan to attend in style. Short-sleeve dress shirt, polka-dotted silk tie, knee-high socks and combat boots. Although I will likely perform horribly, I'll be the hippest dude on the course.

Not if you're on the same course as Ryan Renz. It's hard to beat Knickers and Argyles.

Not if you're on the same course as Ryan Renz. It's hard to beat Knickers and Argyles.



Or Bruce Brakel. Bruce doesn't wear knickers though, he wears Plus Fours, I think.

--------------------
I am truly an amateur in every sense of the word...no matter what Nick Kight says!



Then so are the rest of us and the word has no meaning.

Apparently you can't read!! I didn't say that I had my shirt sleeve up for one hole. I didn't say they "ganged up" on me to "punish me". I DID take it to the source and got no satisfaction, etc, etc, etc. You need to read more carefully next time before you put so much effort into a response that doesn't match the post. Also, it is people like you that think "whining" on this board is unnecessary that diminish its "effectiveness". I did notice how you ignored the arbitration board issue I brought up. How convenient!!

[quote This friend is a 100% USDA Kangaroo Court. /quote]

Thank you for putting this in here. However, I have already participated in a 100% USDA Kangaroo Court in Iowa so you can put a sock in it. Everyone is so worried about the accusees that they are not seeing the forest for the trees. No I do not think they have it out for me. If you would have read the post carefully you would understand that. If they can question my integrity they can question yours. I am not trying to "clear" my good name. One other thing - this is exactly why I put in a vote for an arbitration board. READ IT ALL!!!!

David,

Separate from this conversation, I have a question for you. How difficult would it be for you to comply fully with this dress code?

Does it cause you physical harm?
Does it hurt your sense of self-worth and control?
Do you feel like you are being singled out for persecution?

And�

Did you have the ultimate and final decision on whether to comply or not?

�Cause no matter how you slice it, I didn�t hear any details of injury to your person, you chose to comply by agreeing to participate, and in the end you admittedly did not comply with the dress code. (In light of Jon�s and your own post I do not believe that you were putting you sleeves up and down and even that would have been questionable behavior.)

The argument left to you, is not whether you were wronged, which clearly you were not, but whether the dress code you broke should be changed to allow such behavior. Heck! You couldn�t cry ignoranceabout the rule, YOU WERE WARNED!

But this conversation has moved on from whether or not you were wronged, whether the PDGA has the right to set standards for PDGA Sanctioned Events, we are now, or should be, on the topic of what would improve our dress code.

Finally, whether or not our revised dress code is perfect or not, if you choose to participate in a PDGA event with a dress code it is on you to comply, just as you hopefully comply with all other rules of play. If you don�t then you should not yell �FOUL� when you are caught out of compliance, because only you have the ability to keep yourself in compliance. And the reason I know that compliance is/was possible is that about 900 other disc golfers complied.

Best Regards,
Nick Kight

The problem I have with this whole thing is I had 3 people with me the ENTIRE round not for 3-4 holes. Did anyone talk to them? NO. Was anyone made aware? YES. Does it matter that the guys with me tried to explain when the warning was given? apparently not. Again I ask, where in the rules does it say you can not roll up your sleeves? I had on a short sleeved collared shirt and I got a warning for no sleeves, How can that happen??

its due to those who like to abuse power. its thier way or no way. now you also forgot to add the mando id tag underyour flesh

If you would have bothered reading my original post (which you obviously didn't) this was not about the warning. It was being labeled a liar without proper gathering of the facts. Next time read!!!!

i was trying to be funny

First, you tell me in the rules where it says that we MUST wear the sleeves down. IT DOESN'T!! What it does say is that the shirt must HAVE sleeves that cover the upper arm. Mine did. But that is really not the issue. If you would have read the post I NEVER said I did not comply (if you ahd read the post you would know this). On the contrary, I have ALWAYS tucked in my shirt and it was tucked in the ENTIRE tournament. So, I get a warning for "rolling my sleeves up" to throw unrestricted even though I had my shirt tucked in. You should not "assume" certain things if you were not there and don't want to take the time to read. BTW, did you count all the participants and do a "sleeve check"? I thought you thought carefully before posting or is that "optional"? Oh yeah, let's see how you react to being called a liar?

dude, dont get yer panties in a wad, i find teh whoel shirt topic [*****], wear what teh [*****] you want. if some asswit gaveyou [*****] about having your sleeves rolled up, it showsthat person is a total power hungry [*****].

now about the id chip, it comes in pdga blue or pdga blue
(this will occur, it has been forseen, the pdga will require all members to have implants with id tag info etc, and so will thier discs, before each toss, teh dsic and player will be scaned for various reasons, from rule violations to seing who had what naughty substance{ saddly i can see the pdga becoming drug nazi's and starting drug testingbefore tounys} or to verify said player indeed aced said hole)

First, you tell me in the rules where it says that we MUST wear the sleeves down. IT DOESN'T!! What it does say is that the shirt must HAVE sleeves that cover the upper arm. Mine did.



While it's not explicitly stated, my interpretation is that the sleeves must cover the upper arm, not merely have the ability to cover the upper arm.

Your sleeves were rolled up, and therefore not covering the upper arm, therefore you were not in compliance with the rule.

First, you tell me in the rules where it says that we MUST wear the sleeves down. IT DOESN'T!! What it does say is that the shirt must HAVE sleeves that cover the upper arm. Mine did. But that is really not the issue. If you would have read the post I NEVER said I did not comply (if you ahd read the post you would know this). On the contrary, I have ALWAYS tucked in my shirt and it was tucked in the ENTIRE tournament. So, I get a warning for "rolling my sleeves up" to throw unrestricted even though I had my shirt tucked in. You should not "assume" certain things if you were not there and don't want to take the time to read. BTW, did you count all the participants and do a "sleeve check"? I thought you thought carefully before posting or is that "optional"? Oh yeah, let's see how you react to being called a liar?


David Vaughan 09/07/04 02:35 PM - First, you tell me in the rules where it says that we MUST wear the sleeves down. IT DOESN'T!! What it does say is that the shirt must HAVE sleeves that cover the upper arm. Mine did.



2004 National Tour Player Handbook - 8.3 Dress Code - A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required.

There is no �HAVE� here David, it is WITH sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required.

Truth Test:
Were your sleeves covering the specified areas of your upper arms?
Were you warned about it once?
Did you then have them up again?

Regardless of your attempts to put them up and back on each throw you failed to do so. Jon, I am sure did not make the 2 incidents up out of whole cloth, and you yourself admitted in no uncertain terms that you put them up and forgot. The thing is David, officials and event marshals have to go primarily off of what they �witness�. They can�t watch a player foot fault and then go ask everyone in that group whether they just saw the same foot fault he/she did; they have to make the call, and I for one am dam happy that they are there to ensure a higher degree of compliance with ALL OF THE STANDARDS we have created to help our sport grow.


David Vaughan 09/07/04 02:35 PM - But that is really not the issue. If you would have read the post I NEVER said I did not comply (if you ahd read the post you would know this).



Out of your own mouth from the first post on this thread you MOST DEFINITELY DID SAY:

David Vaughan 08/16/04 01:59 PM - So I would pull the sleeves up when throwing and pull them back down when completed.�Every once in a while I would forget to pull one sleeve down but would correct this as soon as I realized.



David, this is not an egregious crime against disc golf. But how would we all feel if you said, �So I would sneak a few inches to this side or the other so long as no one was watching, but I forgot a few times and was caught.� We have rules and you broke them. From your first post it is not a stretch to see that you probably �intended� to try and break or stretch them enough to force a big deal out of it.


David Vaughan 08/16/04 01:59 PM - Now any of you that know me know that I am a non-conformist�



Great, non-comform with our rules of play and standards at PDGAs around me and you will be called on every violation without any regret. Problem is you did not �non-conform� you cheated David. You broke the rules. You had your sleeves up again and again, and admittedly forgot to put them back down from time to time (whether it was only the times Jon saw and warned/called you on it I find a little unlikely, but even if it was just those times that is enough).


David Vaughan 09/07/04 02:35 PM - On the contrary, I have ALWAYS tucked in my shirt and it was tucked in the ENTIRE tournament. So, I get a warning for "rolling my sleeves up" to throw unrestricted even though I had my shirt tucked in.



Sounds like you are trying to make excuses after the fact. �ALWAYS tucked in my sleeves�. SO WHAT!!! That has nothing to do with breaking the sleeves covering the upper arm part of the rule. It�s like saying you used a mini to mark your lie, but allowed 5 inches to either side to take your stance�


David Vaughan 09/07/04 02:35 PM - You should not "assume" certain things if you were not there and don't want to take the time to read.



You see David, by starting up this Kangaroo Court you left us with no other options than to assume things from what you and others threw to the hungry pack of witch hunters. But even though you WERE there I think that you TOO �assumed� a few things. Mainly that you could get around this dress code, because if anyone did call you on it you already had your whole �non-conformist� plan ready and waiting to spring. C�mon, no non-conformist worth a lick would make a chess move like that without �backup contingencies�, you can�t fake non-conformist behavior with a real non-conformist David. Well, where you messed up is in thinking Jon and the PDGA had less resolve in promoting their agenda than you did in promoting your �non-conformist� one. Guess what? You lost. The good thing is that we didn�t.


David Vaughan 09/07/04 02:35 PM - BTW, did you count all the participants and do a "sleeve check"?



Yes Non-conformist David we did count on all the participants to monitor for compliance with all PDGA Standards (rules, dress code, etc.). You see, WE ARE THE PDGA.



I thought you thought carefully before posting or is that "optional"? Oh yeah, let's see how you react to being called a liar?



I read as carefully as I need to and careful enough to see when someone is at least �bending� the truth if not outright lying. Are calling me a �liar�? About what? I have shown your direct quotes from this very thread, but more importantly I know exactly what you are up to. Truth is you are too easy.

I�ve seen non-conformists open their eyes and see what is really going on in disc golf many times through the years, so I am not about to write you off as a waste of space, but I will say this:

Your behavior at the Worlds as concerns this issue was reprehensible.
Your behavior on this PDGA Message Board was inadvisable.
You have a choice to make, you are not backed into a corner, you can decide to go about this in the �right� way from this point forward and do it.


David Vaughan 08/16/04 01:59 PM - I just returned from World�s and I have an issue to share with all of you. This year, there was a �dress code� instituted where all participants must wear a collared shirt with sleeves. Now any of you that know me know that I am a non-conformist rebel but in this instance I conformed. I bought 3 collared shirts for this World�s and wore them. In fact, I was going to support the PDGA by wearing collared shirts at all the tourneys I attend. NO MORE!!! What I found out was that it wasn�t enough. I am one who can not stand anything on my arms when I throw, I feel constricted. So I would pull the sleeves up when throwing and pull them back down when completed. I do however ALWAYS tuck my shirt tail in. In fact, I am basically a neat freak when it comes to my appearance. Every once in a while I would forget to pull one sleeve down but would correct this as soon as I realized. While playing on Walnut Ridge I was approached by one of the marshalls after I had thrown #16 and was told I needed sleeves!! I had forgotten to pull the left sleeve down but was only about 50 ft from the tee box. I pulled it down, confused, because I did have sleeves. My group continued to play and on #3 our flow of play was disrupted by the marshall to now give me a dress code warning. My group tried to explain that I pulled them down (in fact when we were approached my sleeves were down) to no avail. When I tried to speak to the TD, John Licksit, on that course he just copped an attitude and would not listen (big time power trip!!). I spoke with Dave Nezbitt and explained to him what had happened and that I had the 3 players on my card to backup my story. He told me it was a non-issue. Later that day, Dave called me back in to inform me that the TD and 2 marshalls said that I had played the whole round with my sleeves up. That was a complete lie!!! Now, they were able to see me for about 5-6 holes if that much. I decided to just let it go but was then informed by Dave that I was getting a courtesy violation for not telling him the truth, In essence, he called me a liar. He wasn�t interested in talking to the 3 players or anyone else. I was furious!!! I payed a lot of money and time to attend these World�s and support the PDGA and this is how I get treated!!! Apparently though, if you are a top Pro you can do anyting you want. During the Final Nine I observed several players with their shirts tails out. So if any of you out their think there is favortism, you are 100% correct. The PDGA is spending so much time trying to be like ball golf that they have lost sight of what DG is all about. You would think they are on the board of the PGA not PDGA. When an organization is tries to emulate another, they have no identity. That is exactly where we are headed. In my opinion, they are a bunch of whiny, self serving, self centered ego maniacs who are way too busy patting each other on the back to even care about the people in the PDGA. What they need to realize is that we are not golf and never will be. We need our own identity or we will never grow. They keep saying how many active members we have. We would probably have more but they continue to run people off. We have 7000+ active members but 25,000+ members. The PGA at least tries to retain their membership!! Truth is, DG is growing because of you and me, not the PDGA. As long as we continue to introduce mew people to the sport, it will grow in spite of the PDGA. I do have one idea on how to settle disputes. Since they won�t listen, we need an arbitration board to settle disputes with the PDGA. Now this board shouldn�t and can�t be appointed by the PDGA, not if we want them impartial. They should be elected by the membership to represent us since no one else does. I realize what they are trying to do but I think they are going about it the wrong way. I know that some of you out there are going to read this and say �why don�t you run for the board then?�. NO WAY!! I am self employed to avoid the crap you have to deal with in a corporation and this is no different. In closing, I would like to reiterate that we are not the PGA. In fact, the national spelling bee champion (12 yrs old) received $12,000 for winning a spelling bee. This year�s champ won $5300. What is wrong with this picture.




2004 National Tour Player Handbook - 8.3 Dress Code
dress appropriately and maintain a clean and well-groomed appearance
All players must wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required.
Players should tuck in their shirt whenever possible, and may be asked to do so by a Tournament official.
This dress code will be in effect from time of registration to the completion of awards at each event, including all tournament rounds and on-site practice.





2004 National Tour Player Handbook - 8.3 Dress Code
8.3.1 All players in PDGA sanctioned competitions are expected to dress appropriately and maintain a clean and well-groomed appearance at all Event sites and all associated functions.
8.3.2 The following dress code for all competitors will be enforced at all PDGA National Tour and Major Events, and are highly recommended to be enforced at SuperTour and lower tier events at the sole discretion of the Tournament Director:
All players must wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required. Women are allowed to wear tasteful, sleeveless collared shirts as designated above. No t-shirts will be allowed, except for competitors in the Junior divisions.

Players should tuck in their shirt whenever possible, and may be asked to do so by a Tournament official.

No ripped shirts, shorts, pants will be allowed on the course.

No offensive or suggestive slogans or logos shall be allowed on any clothing

Shoes or other foot coverings must be worn. The foot coverings worn must cover the entire area from the heel to the toe. No flip-flops will be allowed.

Bare midriffs for men or women will not be allowed on the course.
8.3.3 This dress code will be in effect from time of registration to the completion of awards at each event, including all tournament rounds and on-site practice. Players, who do not make the final cut but wish to remain on site through the duration of the tournament will be considered spectators and are not required to conform to the Tour�s dress code. However it is advisable to continue in appropriate dress throughout the event in case of the presence of media
8.3.4 Any player in breach of the dress code will be warned for the first offense by a Tournament Official or PDGA Marshal, may be required to change attire immediately at the official�s discretion, and will under all circumstances be required to change attire prior to the restart of their next round. For any additional offenses, players will be subject to disqualification by the Tournament Director, and may also be subject to suspension from PDGA events at the discretion of the PDGA Commissioner.

Problem is you did not �non-conform� you cheated David. You broke the rules. You had your sleeves up again and again, and admittedly forgot to put them back down from time to time



I find this so amusing. He cheated by having his sleeves rolled up? :p

Insignificant/debatable violations of the dress code are now considered cheating ?

Problem is you did not �non-conform� you cheated David. You broke the rules. You had your sleeves up again and again, and admittedly forgot to put them back down from time to time



I find this so amusing. He cheated by having his sleeves rolled up? :p

Insignificant/debatable violations of the dress code are now considered cheating ?



Yes they are James, particularly when they are against the rules.

This is not a big deal as far as the infraction James, it is a big deal because David is making it a big deal. Particularly when their was a far better and more discrete method of dealing with it.

Why Nick Why?

David's may have been a tirade of sorts - the man was obviously upset.

But your's is an unbelievable assault on common sense. Let the dam thing go would ya? Sleeves rolled up is cheating and reprehensible? Get a grip on yourself man!

if you do not like the rules, do not play!!!!!

Problem is you did not �non-conform� you cheated David. You broke the rules. You had your sleeves up again and again, and admittedly forgot to put them back down from time to time



I find this so amusing. He cheated by having his sleeves rolled up? :p

Insignificant/debatable violations of the dress code are now considered cheating ?



Yes they are James, particularly when they are against the rules.

This is not a big deal as far as the infraction James, it is a big deal because David is making it a big deal. Particularly when their was a far better and more discrete method of dealing with it.



i'll bite...is it "cut off your arms?"

Problem is you did not �non-conform� you cheated David. You broke the rules. You had your sleeves up again and again, and admittedly forgot to put them back down from time to time



I find this so amusing. He cheated by having his sleeves rolled up? :p

Insignificant/debatable violations of the dress code are now considered cheating ?



Yes they are James, particularly when they are against the rules.

This is not a big deal as far as the infraction James, it is a big deal because David is making it a big deal. Particularly when their was a far better and more discrete method of dealing with it.



i'll bite...is it "cut off your arms?"



Now that would be "REALLY" non-conformist.

Following the rules is the somewhat less drastic method.

Craig, c'mon, sometimes Nick and common sense go together like Paris Hilton and underwear.


All players must wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required.


As has been mentioned previously, this line could also be read to mean a 'short sleeve' shirt, as opposed to a 'long sleeve' shirt. For instance, it could have also said:

All players must wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the entire arm to the wrist are required.

Furthermore, since tucking the shirt in is explicitly mentioned as a requirement, but not rolling the sleeves up wasn't, it could also be assumed that rolling the sleeves up is allowed.

If you ask me (and of course I know you were going to), the TDs/Marshalls have a hard time justifying any action against David after they colluded amongst themselves to NOT enforce the 'tucking in' part of the rule (as stated here in this very thread by Jon Lyksett himself).

so what will MOMMIE want us to wear next year??? :eek:

Why Nick Why?

David's may have been a tirade of sorts - the man was obviously upset.

But your's is an unbelievable assault on common sense. Let the dam thing go would ya? Sleeves rolled up is cheating and reprehensible? Get a grip on yourself man!



Yeah, you're right.

How about purposeful non-compliance? Is that nicer? I love how you guys want to make this about me, LOL.

Call it what you like, breaking our standards and rules purposefully is "cheating" in my book. Or for you more gentle souls it is "not following our rules and standards on purpose".

If you would have bothered reading my original post (which you obviously didn't) this was not about the warning. It was being labeled a liar without proper gathering of the facts. Next time read!!!!



Maybe next time you should engage your brain before you do something inane like decide to not comply with a dress code, not just once, but at least once after being warned and most likely many more times than that, and get upset for being called on the violation. Though it is a small violation in the scope of the rules, it is a violation.

Then you come on this board expecting to get sympathy from everyone, "because I was called a liar". Your bullying attitude and can't you read comments are doing just the opposite. Seems like you may have given half truths, but I cannot pass judgement on the liar aspect of the issue, but if it quacks like a duck :o/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

David, you got caught violating a rule, tried to argue the fact and was called for not being totally truthful. If you had just left well enough alone and taken the warning as just that, nothing more would have happened, but you let your ego get involved and then you really got it bruised.

Good luck convincing others because your demeanor here has done the opposite to me. :cool:

Furthermore, since tucking the shirt in is explicitly mentioned as a requirement, but not rolling the sleeves up wasn't, it could also be assumed that rolling the sleeves up is allowed.



Yes, one could but for the fact that the player was warned once already, from that point on (though I suspect he had always known) he certainly was aware of the rule not as it was intended but exactly as it was and remains.

You guys crack me up. You know full well that this guy was hankerin� for a fight over this. Now he's got it and he looses a second time. Movin� on from this point it what really matters. I hope he makes a sincere effort to communicate with and listen to the PDGA party�s involved and I hope that we get a better dress code, where �innocent� mistakes like this are not possible.

I apologize to the fellow non-conformists out there, but you see part of being a part of an organized association must necessarily involve a greater level of cooperation than of individual freedoms. Why? Well as your local scene should teach even you, you are stronger and more effective as a larger cooperative than as disparate individuals.

this whole debacle reminds me of the calvin and hobbes comic when calvin's mother tells him to get in the bathtub. calvin obediently climbs into the tub, and sits there. mom then yells up the stairs "let's hear some water running, mister!" calvin's quip in the 4th panel - "I obey the letter of the law, if not the spirit"

DV wore a collared, sleeved shirt and rolled them up because he felt that obeying the letter of the law was enough, but was angry when a marshall called him on it. Is it nitpicking? Yes. But was a marshall right in calling him on it, regardless of what other potential infractions were or were not called on other players? Yes. The PDGA instated the rule for only the top tournaments, and is just one of the things that makes them stand out from lower-ranked tournaments. I prefer to play sleeveless myself, but at these type of events will gladly don appropriate attire in the spirit the rule was created for.

Interesting to note, until this whole thing started being picked apart I was under the impression that the sleeves had to come to the elbow. If all that is required is to cover the upper-arm to shoulder joint area, there are plenty of places you can buy "sleeveless" shirts that have very short sleeves extending from the seam at the shoulder which cover the specified area but stay very much out of the way when throwing. My suggestion is if you are really opposed to sleeves that much, you have three options.

1) Buy a few shirts like the ones mentioned above
2) If you want to roll your sleeves, do not tuck them all the way up and under the armpit, so that you are still in accordance with the dress code and cover the required area. (I wasn't there, and maybe this is what DV did. But I can't say for sure)
3) Stop attending the events of this level which enforce the dress code, and cry about it at home.

I apologize to the fellow non-conformists out there, but you see part of being a part of an organized association must necessarily involve a greater level of cooperation than of individual freedoms. Why? Well as your local scene should teach even you, you are stronger and more effective as a larger cooperative than as disparate individuals.



I'm just a noob to this sport, but I've been reading this thread with amusement for the last week or so. If what you want is to turn off Ultimate players from this sport, you are doing a very good job. The transition from one to the other is natural in terms of skillset, but not in terms of needing to police whether some guy's shirt sleeve is rolled up or not. I mean, really. Is there no spirit of the game here? It is actually considered cheating to roll a sleeve up? We need to berate some guy for thinking it might be a bit extreme for him to be dressed down for this?

I've seen it written over and over again that we have to accept this because it is "the rules". I'm sorry, but that's not good enough. There has to be a reason behind the rule. I have seen a lot of arguments in this thread about what the reasoning is, and that's fine...keep arguing and I'll keep reading. But just to say over and over that the rule justifies itself is a non sequitur.

Plunky

Ok, Nick, if I warn you on a non-rule rule, do you still have to comply?

Once again, the TDs/Marshalls/whoever weakened their case by colluding to not enforce the 'tucked in' clause. Enforcing the non-existent 'dont roll them up' clause was another mistake.

Once again, the TDs/Marshalls/whoever weakened their case by colluding to not enforce the 'tucked in' clause.



I thought the rules said the choice was up to them to enforce it or not. They simply chose not to. (And all the villagers rejoiced.)


Enforcing the non-existent 'dont roll them up' clause was another mistake.



And here I thought they had no choice, that the rules said the upper arms must be covered by the sleeve. As a result, not enforcing the rule would have been the mistake.

The problem here is, this is not a universally liked rule. But I wouldn't gang up on the people who are just doing their best to enforce them. I understand the reasoning behind the rule, but if the rule is not liked by enough people, perhaps it can be changed. What is the process for that? Has anybody complaining here tried to initiate that process?

When you participate in any sort of organization with a governing body you abide by their rules if you want to stay out of troubles way. Echoes of my parents saying "As long as you live under my roof, you will follow my rules!" are ringing in my head.

Seriously, their are times in our lives when we have to follow a rule even though it doesn't make sense to us or we just down right don't agree with it. In either case, if you make the decision to not follow said rule you will have to deal with the consequences.

You may think it is your right as a verile male of the species (I'm assuming of course that the reader is both male and verile, my apologies to all who would take exception) to grab a ladies butt as she passes. Even though you don't like the rules about harrassment and assault you will still have to deal with the consequences. Because you live in this society you have chosen to abide by the rules that the governing body have deemed appropriate.

Because you participate in a PDGA sanctioned event you are, in effect, saying that you will abide by all rules during said event. If tomorrow the BOD passed a rule that said you must wear knickers and a derby hat at all NT stops, in order to participate you would have to comply. By showing up in your favorite sun-dress you will incur the penalties.

Have I made this point enough times in enough different ways? The bottom line is that a rule was broken and a punishment, if you want to call a warning that, was given. The marshall was just in handing out this warning to you, even if someone else in your group was smoking a bowl right next to the marshall. The fact that someone else is breaking the rules does not mean that you can break the rules as well. My mom used to say something about jumping off a bridge because everyone else was doing it. (Or something, I wasn't paying much attention in those days)

Do you understand?

but what if, right now, i wore my favorite collared, sleeved sundress (tucked in of course). would that be ok? :o

Yes, I do.

Breaking the rules is "cheating". I don't know if David broke a rule, but the evidence presented in this Kangeroo Court points in that direction. That same evidence leads me to believe that he did so on purpose just to further his agenda against dress codes per se.

The argument here does not seem to be about the appropriateness of a dress code but of "ANY" dress code. I really would like to ask everyone here just how many Majors and NTs they played in this year? 2? 1? 0!?!

The NT didn't even exist 2 years ago, now you guys and every "We're Never Going To Make It" type is harping on every improvement we try to make to this showcase tour.

Non-conformist? Hah! Just wear a dang shirt with sleeves covering your upper arms for crying out loud, what 3 or 5 days out of the entire year! How oppressive... Fight the man!!!

First, you tell me in the rules where it says that we MUST wear the sleeves down. IT DOESN'T!! What it does say is that the shirt must HAVE sleeves that cover the upper arm. Mine did.



While it's not explicitly stated, my interpretation is that the sleeves must cover the upper arm, not merely have the ability to cover the upper arm.

Your sleeves were rolled up, and therefore not covering the upper arm, therefore you were not in compliance with the rule.



The dress code makes clear shirts with sleeves are required and that shirts SHOULD be tucked in whenever possible. Given that a clearly written rule about tucking was intentionally not enforced it seems ludicrous that they got on a guy for rolled up sleeves. It seems to me they should apologize to the affected party and congratulate themselves on what otherwise was a very well-run tournament.

PaulM

And here I thought they had no choice, that the rules said the upper arms must be covered by the sleeve.



No, the rule does not say that. Read up a few pages and you'll understand.

Nick, I appreciate your desire to defend the PDGA-generated status quo at every opportunity. Well, OK, I really don't, but whatever. Think of it this way. The collared shirt 'rule' to some of us is like the 2 meter rule to you. We think it's ambiguous and unnecessary and would like it removed. Yes, it's in the rule book (well, OK, so it's not exactly in the RULE book), but that doesn't mean it NEEDS to be there. Sound familiar? Yes, that's right, I'm pushing your arguments about the 2 meter rule back at you. Pretty cool, I know.

The fact that it wasn't enforced properly is just an added bonus for our side.

Dan 1; Nick 0

:D:D:D

And here I thought they had no choice, that the rules said the upper arms must be covered by the sleeve.



No, the rule does not say that. Read up a few pages and you'll understand.

[/QUOTE]

I did, actually, before I posted. The exact wording of the rule says a collared shirt is required "with sleeves covering the upper arm." There's only one objective way to read that rule. The sleeves cover the upper arm. If they are rolled up, they are not covering the upper arm.

Look, I'd like to read one post where someone AGREES with the rule and supports your interpretation. But what I'm reading instead are posts from several who DISAGREE with the rule, and not surprisingly, interpret the rule in a manner inconsistent with its apparent intent. So basically, what I see are a bunch of posts from people who disagree with the rule, period.

While the rule is there, it must be followed. That's why I asked if anyone is doing more than just disingenuously complaining here about it, saying it was easy to misinterpret the rule, or pointing to another aspect of the rule that they think should have been followed.

Basically, those who disagree with the rule must want it changed, so again I'm asking, does anyone who's complaining know what the process is for getting the rule changed? Have you started that process? In the meantime, while the rule remains, I hope you will abide by it until the matter is settled in your favor or another's.

Dixonjowers, were you replying to me? Your post header said you were, but the words of your post seemed to be directed toward someone who was advocating breaking the rule.

Anyway, it's nice whenever a post of mine is referenced, even if in error...

Paul, the fact that we disagree about the intent of the rule is a good reason to at the very least rewrite it, if not abolish it. A collared shirt is required with sleeves? Do they have to cover the entire upper arm? Or just the upper arm to shoulder joint? If they only need to cover the upper arm to shoulder joint, then most 'muscle' shirts are ok (provided they are mock style, or collared). And must the sleeves stay down? It is required to be tucked in? Or can it be left out? I'll say again, the big issue here should be the fact that we are having a spatfest (albeit a good one) about a guy that got in trouble for rolling up his sleeves while playing frisbee golf.

As far as the process for officially changing the rule, who knows? One can assume that since the Regional Director posted on this thread and is aware of the issues that it will be brought up at some time. Or not.

Dan 0 : Nick 1

Dan,

The fact, as given here, is that the rule does clearly state that the sleeves should cover the upper arm. The fact, as given here, remains that David knew that the rule stated that the sleeve must cover the upper arm. The fact, as given here, is that David purposefully disregarded the rule and was warned to please follow it (!!! SOMETHING NO OTHER GOLFER TO MY KNOWLEDGE NEEDED REMINDING OF!!!)

By the way, I know the 2 meter rule is a bad one and should be removed, that does not make me go out and not adhere to it, or (possibly) lie to a PDGA Marshal or TD at a PDGA Major about me violating it.

This is not about a bad rule, or the wrong enforcement of a rule, it is about a violation of the rule, and apparently about lying about this violation to 2 Officials at the event.

We need a dress code. We have needed one for Majors for many many many years now, and with the NT the time was right. This rule could be made clearer and my guess is that it will. Truth is I doubt very much whether a "majority" of disc golfers, particularly ones that actually play Majors and NTs, "don't like" the new dress code rules. And they are as unique and diverse a group as anyone.

Same folks crying like 2 year olds here are the first ones to jump all over the PDGA for not enforcing rules (not having TDs and Officials Backs when they need them). You guys are way off the deep end here.

And to our Ultimate Friend, go get horizonal...

I think that is about 0 Dan, 5 Nick. ;)

Nick, believe me when I say this hurts me more than it will hurt you. Ok, I'm lying, this won't hurt me at all.


Dan,

The fact, as given here, is that the rule does clearly state that the sleeves should cover the upper arm.



No, Nick, it does not clearly state that. Read the rule (sorry, the guideline) again if you need to. I've posted more than once where the ambiguity lies.



The fact, as given here, remains that David knew that the rule stated that the sleeve must cover the upper arm. The fact, as given here, is that David purposefully disregarded the rule and was warned to please follow it



No, David knew that he needed a collared shirt with sleeves that covered the upper arm to shoulder joint as that is how the guideline is written.


(!!! SOMETHING NO OTHER GOLFER TO MY KNOWLEDGE NEEDED REMINDING OF!!!)



Just because no other golfer was rolling their sleeves up does not make it wrong. And neither does the guideline as currently written.


By the way, I know the 2 meter rule is a bad one and should be removed, that does not make me go out and not adhere to it, or (possibly) lie to a PDGA Marshal or TD at a PDGA Major about me violating it.



2 problems here. One, you think the 2 meter rule is bad. You can't pretend to know anything. Most of the free disc throwing world is fine with it (hmm...sound like a familiar argument?).

Two, you have stated previously on this very board that you would not stroke someone that has a disc suspended above 2 meters because of what you perceived as a problem with the playing surface not being defined in the rule book.
See here to be reminded of your statement:
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=140714&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Do you need me to point out the hypocrisy in your statement? You claim to adhere to a rule you don't like, when you have stated on this board that you would not penalize someone for violating it (as you are required to do, especially as a certified official).

(That one should be scored as a TD and 2pt conversion for me. Boo Ya.)


This is not about a bad rule, or the wrong enforcement of a rule,



Yes, it is.


it is about a violation of the rule, and apparently about lying about this violation to 2 Officials at the event.



Can you be prosecuted for allegedly lying about breaking a rule (sorry, guideline) that doesn't exist? I wouldn't think so.



We need a dress code. We have needed one for Majors for many many many years now, and with the NT the time was right.



OK, I'll agree to that one.



This rule could be made clearer and my guess is that it will.



Lands sakes? Is my eyes be deceiving me? That's what we have been saying all along!!!



Truth is I doubt very much whether a "majority" of disc golfers, particularly ones that actually play Majors and NTs, "don't like" the new dress code rules. And they are as unique and diverse a group as anyone.




Almost everyone that I talked to at Worlds didn't like it. And I talked to a lot of people. They adhered to it, but they didn't like it.



And to our Ultimate Friend, go get horizonal...




Sure, Nick, you claim to want to grow the sport but would alienate what could be the only friends we have? More hypocrisy.



I think that is about 0 Dan, 5 Nick. ;)



Yeah, maybe in the bizzaro world it is. :D

A complete dissection...impressive!! :D

Nick, believe me when I say this hurts me more than it will hurt you. Ok, I'm lying, this won't hurt me at all.

<font color="red"> Depends on what you qualify as �hurt�. That you haven�t made a single valid point yet? </font>


Dan,

The fact, as given here, is that the rule does clearly state that the sleeves should cover the upper arm.



No, Nick, it does not clearly state that. Read the rule (sorry, the guideline) again if you need to. I've posted more than once where the ambiguity lies.

<font color="red"> It was clear enough for 900 other golfers. And the PDGA Dress Code do represent �RULES� as do PDGA Sanctioning Agreements, etc. none of which goes in our PDGA Rules Book.

And here once again is the exact language of the �RULE� in question:
All players must wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required.

Again: �with sleeves covering the upper arm-to-shoulder joint are required�

I�d likely concede ambiguity if say 50 or even 450 golfers at the event were caught 2 times with their sleeves rolled up above their shoulders, but 1!?! C�mon bro.</font>



The fact, as given here, remains that David knew that the rule stated that the sleeve must cover the upper arm. The fact, as given here, is that David purposefully disregarded the rule and was warned to please follow it



No, David knew that he needed a collared shirt with sleeves that covered the upper arm to shoulder joint as that is how the guideline is written.

<font color="red"> No, I suggest that you go back and read his original post Dan. He says, and I quote: �David Vaughan 08/16/04 01:59 PM - So I would pull the sleeves up when throwing and pull them back down when completed.�Every once in a while I would forget to pull one sleeve down but would correct this as soon as I realized.�

Does that sound like someone who was unaware of the rule and how it worked? And even if at some point he was unfamiliar with it�s meaning, once Jon warned him that claim was baseless. </font>


(!!! SOMETHING NO OTHER GOLFER TO MY KNOWLEDGE NEEDED REMINDING OF!!!)



Just because no other golfer was rolling their sleeves up does not make it wrong. And neither does the guideline as currently written.

<font color="red"> Wrong Dan. The rule makes it illegal and the fact that a PDGA Marshal and TD both explained to him that it was and is illegal does actually make it illegal. Both as currently written and widely understood. </font>


By the way, I know the 2 meter rule is a bad one and should be removed, that does not make me go out and not adhere to it, or (possibly) lie to a PDGA Marshal or TD at a PDGA Major about me violating it.



2 problems here. One, you think the 2 meter rule is bad. You can't pretend to know anything. Most of the free disc throwing world is fine with it (hmm...sound like a familiar argument?).

<font color="red"> No it doesn�t. I am arguing in favor of supporting a PDGA Marshal and TD enforcing existing rules; where as you are comparing it to a rule that everyone knows and follows. If a player was called for a 2 Meter penalty and lied to a PDGA Marshal or TD would you be defending that player? Completely different situation and argument. </font>

Two, you have stated previously on this very board that you would not stroke someone that has a disc suspended above 2 meters because of what you perceived as a problem with the playing surface not being defined in the rule book.
See here to be reminded of your statement:
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=140714&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Do you need me to point out the hypocrisy in your statement? You claim to adhere to a rule you don't like, when you have stated on this board that you would not penalize someone for violating it (as you are required to do, especially as a certified official).

(That one should be scored as a TD and 2pt conversion for me. Boo Ya.)

<font color="red"> Read the post Dan, I said, �As a player and PDGA Official I do not think that I can make that call until "playing surface" gets defined in such a way to support it. As it stands no, it does not.�

A) �Playing Surface� has been defined to a greater degree by the PDGA Rules Committee.
B) I said �I do not think that� not as you phrase it �you would not stroke someone. There is a huge difference. You have completely mischaracterize my statement and intended purpose for raising the topic. </font>


This is not about a bad rule, or the wrong enforcement of a rule,



Yes, it is.

<font color="red"> In your opinion it is. It is a rule and it was enforced correctly (according to this kangaroo court). </font>


it is about a violation of the rule, and apparently about lying about this violation to 2 Officials at the event.



Can you be prosecuted for allegedly lying about breaking a rule (sorry, guideline) that doesn't exist? I wouldn't think so.

<font color="red"> If you have been warned about a violation, where there is no escaping being informed of the nature of the rule and violation, then do it again, then (according to this kangaroo court) say to the TD that you did not violate the rule; HELLO, yes you can and should be held accountable for your willful disregard for the rules. </font>



We need a dress code. We have needed one for Majors for many many many years now, and with the NT the time was right.



OK, I'll agree to that one.



This rule could be made clearer and my guess is that it will.



Lands sakes? Is my eyes be deceiving me? That's what we have been saying all along!!!

<font color="red"> Actually Dan, you have not been; if you had I would not have even gotten involved in this discussion. You have been saying that David was wrongly accused and found guilty though he neither knew nor broke the rule. That is a very big difference.</font>



Truth is I doubt very much whether a "majority" of disc golfers, particularly ones that actually play Majors and NTs, "don't like" the new dress code rules. And they are as unique and diverse a group as anyone.




Almost everyone that I talked to at Worlds didn't like it. And I talked to a lot of people. They adhered to it, but they didn't like it.

<font color="red"> So are you saying that the Dress Code was adhered to by the majority of the people at the Worlds, even though they didn�t like it? Then why couldn�t David? And don�t you want your Event Officials to enforce our rules, or just some of them? </font>



And to our Ultimate Friend, go get horizonal...




Sure, Nick, you claim to want to grow the sport but would alienate what could be the only friends we have? More hypocrisy.

<font color="red"> Have not the time, patience or temperament to be talked down to by Ultimate Players. And �Get Horizontal!� is a long term familiar Ultimate phrase. He like anyone else is welcome to join US in OUR sport.</font>



I think that is about 0 Dan, 5 Nick. ;)



Yeah, maybe in the bizzaro world it is. :D



<font color="red"> Most people call that �bizarro world� the one we live in [\color]

I like the use of red, Nick. That was a nice touch.


As has been mentioned previously, this line could also be read to mean a 'short sleeve' shirt, as opposed to a 'long sleeve' shirt. For instance, it could have also said:

All players must wear a shirt covering their upper chest area. A well tailored shirt with either a fold-down collar or a pseudo-turtleneck type collar, with sleeves covering the entire arm to the wrist are required.

Furthermore, since tucking the shirt in is explicitly mentioned as a requirement, but not rolling the sleeves up wasn't, it could also be assumed that rolling the sleeves up is allowed.

If you ask me (and of course I know you were going to), the TDs/Marshalls have a hard time justifying any action against David after they colluded amongst themselves to NOT enforce the 'tucking in' part of the rule (as stated here in this very thread by Jon Lyksett himself).



I'll just remind you of those valid points I have made earlier, perhaps you missed them.

The fact that a lot of people blindly followed the rule does not mean it's a good one, or can't be improved upon. Many people blindly follow what the leaders of our government say, don't they? Does that mean that everything they say is correct and perfect? There's a correlation for you.

Since many apparently didn't like the rule/guideline, it would seem some sort of compromise is warranted. There were dozens, if not hundreds of untucked shirts out on the courses (I'll venture to say 75% that I saw weren't tucked in) that got ignored (and rightfully so, in my opinion). My guess (and it's only a guess, based on what one of the Jons said) is that the TDs/Marshalls agreed that it was an unworthy piece of the rule/guideline to enforce. Why the sleeve issue wasn't also unworthy, I don't know. I do know that if we had to take this to a court of law, the ruling against David would not hold up based on the current wording of the rule/guideline.

You may think it is your right as a verile male of the species (I'm assuming of course that the reader is both male and verile, my apologies to all who would take exception) to grab a ladies butt as she passes. Even though you don't like the rules about harrassment and assault you will still have to deal with the consequences.

thats OK in Texas :D

The exact wording of the rule says a collared shirt is required "with sleeves covering the upper arm." There's only one objective way to read that rule. The sleeves cover the upper arm. If they are rolled up, they are not covering the upper arm.

While the rule is there, it must be followed.



The context of this ruling was one in which another rule which clearly says shirts should be tucked in whenever possible was intentionally not enforced. The sleeve rule can easily be read to mean one must wear a shirt that has sleeves long enough to cover the upper arms. Rolling up one's sleeve to throw does not alter the type of shirt one is wearing. In fact your discussion above implies that if a player with sufficient arm speed causes his shirt sleeve to move during the hit of a drive so that it isn't covering the upper arm then he has broken the rules. That is pretty ridiculous but then so was getting on a guy for rolling up his sleeves.

The sleeve rule can easily be read to mean one must wear a shirt that has sleeves long enough to cover the upper arms. Rolling up one's sleeve to throw does not alter the type of shirt one is wearing.



by that logic, if you step into your upside-down shirt and wear it as if it were a pair of pants by sticking your legs out the armholes, that should be legal since you're "wearing" a shirt that has sleeves of the appropriate length? You're wearing a legal shirt, right? :p

walk into a 7-11 with a shirt wrapped around your waist and your shoes on your hands and see how long it takes them to kick you out for violating the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. They don't specify HOW you're supposed to wear them, you're supposed to be intelligent enough to figure it out for yourself. But maybe assuming that just because people are adults that they'll ACT like adults is a mistake.

Sorry, forgot to put this one in my last post...


How can we enforce the 2 meters above the playing surface rule when "playing surface" remains undefined within our rules? Who is to say that what the disc is resting on is not an upper playing surface?

As a player and PDGA Official I do not think that I can make that call until "playing surface" gets defined in such a way to support it. As it stands no, it does not.

Click on the "Rules" link and see for yourself...



"I do not think I can make that call" - seems pretty easy to figure out what that means. You were using a loophole to get around your disdain for that rule, which is similar to the issue at hand.

The more I read the shirt requirement guideline, the more I realize that the only part of the body that the shirt must cover is the upper body and the joint where the arm connects to the torso. It's not the upper arm that must be covered, it's the point at which the upper arm is connected to the body.

You know, this is just an example of someone trying to find out how much they could get away with on a rule that they don't like. Not too different from the 16-year-old that comes in at 11:15 PM when the curfew is 11:00 to see if they get in any trouble. It's really nothing more than that, but seems to have grown into a major debate with very large posts that are argumentative and have little value. There is of course some entertainment value in them, but not much more.

Sorry, forgot to put this one in my last post...


How can we enforce the 2 meters above the playing surface rule when "playing surface" remains undefined within our rules? Who is to say that what the disc is resting on is not an upper playing surface?

As a player and PDGA Official I do not think that I can make that call until "playing surface" gets defined in such a way to support it. As it stands no, it does not.

Click on the "Rules" link and see for yourself...



"I do not think I can make that call" - seems pretty easy to figure out what that means. You were using a loophole to get around your disdain for that rule, which is similar to the issue at hand.



LOL! Dan, there is a difference between discussing it and doing it out on the course. (Particularly here!) Of all the people you know am I not one of the least likely to overlook a rules violation on the course. At a bare minimum I will offer a casual warning and explain the rule, even to long time players with long time misconceptions...

Your point about me not making calls on the course remains a weak pretense in defending David's actions. But in a kangaroo court that kind of evidence might just get a conviction. [chuckle]

I don't know, Nick. I was extremely disappointed that one of the rules zealots that I admire most appeared to be condoning the violation of a rule. In fact, it's taken me months to get over it. I am glad to know now that you were just kidding. :D :D

Can we at least agree that the guideline needs to be amended in some way? Rooster's thoughts on the underarmour style shirts are pretty good. I'd prefer something that said 'neat, clean, and professional' myself.

And the 'tucking in' part needs to go.

Not "kidding", "thinking about it" and wanting to "discuss it". Slightly different from "not following the rules".

I am certainly for clarifying them. In all truth I'll only have to abide by them for one event the 2005 Worlds, and I always were collared shirts with sleeves covering my upper guns anyway... BTW Your Jeremy Shocky Shirt is perhaps the most vile piece of laundry I've ever seen on a course. It almost ruined the beauty of Tinicum.

Your Jeremy Shockey Shirt is perhaps the most vile piece of laundry I've ever seen on a course. It almost ruined the beauty of Tinicum.



While I will agree that Tinicum was very pretty, even the beauty and majesty of the Grand Canyon could be improved by
the Shockey jersey. The fact that I was wearing it was just an added bonus. :D

Looks like he will be able to play in the season opener, should be fun. Other than Kurt Warner getting his neck dislocated, Shockey TDs are the only thing I have to root for this year. :(

Looks like he will be able to play in the season opener, should be fun. Other than Kurt Warner getting his neck dislocated, Shockey TDs are the only thing I have to root for this year. :(



Two touchdowns in each of the last two seasons - don't hold your breath! ;)

Thanks Jeff, for the reminder. :(
You still playing poker? PM me with the details.