Like these:

http://www.google.com/#q=elbow+brace+hinged&hl=en&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=KjUvTs6eC-GmsQLQl8hV&ved=0CGMQrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=bb97706c552c9292&biw=1143&bih=468

They seem like "medical items" that would be exempt under the rules as follows:

802.04 Artificial Devices
A. During a round, a player shall not use any artificial device that may assist in making a
throw, except those devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape,
bandages, gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as knee and ankle braces, etc.). Items used to prevent slipping on the teeing surface are also allowed.

I just want to make sure that there hasn't been a ruling that the hinged elbow braces, which can be set to prevent elbow hyper extension no matter how hard one throws, remain exempt even when used by an as yet uninjured player to allow them to throw harder without fear of the most common of all disc golf injuries.

That's borderline since the person isn't injured. The implication is the person can throw harder as a result of the device. Think whether a player should be allowed to roll out a grippy tee mat on the fairway anytime to be able to throw harder in slippery conditions to potentially prevent injury. I've tried to use one clown shoe to get farther out on a stance in the pine trees claiming that my bunions sometimes swell during the round and need the bigger shoe just long enough for one throw...

(Contact the Tour Director for the official ruling)

Off topic, but can my Caddy hold up my umbrella to block the sunlight for me when I go to putt?

Maybe if the caddy is standing completely behind your lie.

Doesn't matter if the person is injured or not. If the person is using this particular device to prevent injury, they should be allowed to use it.

I could claim that a lever slinging device is going to reduce wear and tear on my arm and reduce chances of injury and yet it's not allowed.

Seems pretty black and white to me. The rule clearly allows medical devices and gives examples of knee and ankle braces etc. An elbow brace is clearly in the same category. There is No requirement of an existing injury.

As for your grippy mat I would allow that as well as long as it doesn't exceed the thickness requirements as the pad you can place under your supporting point when you kneel to throw. Using a towel n the teeing surface to throw harder in slippery conditions is allowed. Not much of a stretch to allow it on the tee although I don't think the point is to allow you to throw harder but to allow you to throw safer.

After seeing you lobby FOR allowing range finders the other day I am surprised you think this is borderline.

A grippy mat is okay to use on a teeing surface. Not okay on the fairway (as presented in CK's post).

I like the clown shoe idea. :)

Seems to me that the term "knee and ankle braces, etc." would include ANY such brace. And that the rule allowing "medical items" doesn't specify that a player must have an injury to use them. (And it certainly doesn't specify that player must prove injury, so anyone could claim "elbow pain" and proceed).

This is all speculation. The decision is in the hands of the Tour Manager as I originally posted. My comment about being borderline means I'm 50/50 and would support either decision.

The exception that allows up to a one inch pad to be used on a fairway can be used to support any part of your body except feet. So you couldn't stand on the grippy mat for a throw.

A grippy mat is okay to use on a teeing surface. Not okay on the fairway (as presented in CK's post).



I use a towel in the fairway.
You say I can't.
I pull out my rulebook and demand you show me the rule that says I can't do it.

You point out which rule?

You talk about the Rules Q and As.
I respond the ED ruled the Q&As aren't rules (yet).


This isn't a "serious" argument, just pointing out in a tourney you can't stop a player from using a towel in the fairway... yet.

In that case, I'm making my caddy carry a rubber mat, so that every fairway & putt shot I have, he can roll it out and I have a clean smooth surface to run up/stand on, great idea!

wsfaplau - I use a towel in the fairway. You say I can't. I pull out my rulebook and demand you show me the rule that says I can't do it.
Simply read the very first sentence in 803.04A. No artificial device may be used...
The rule starts with complete exclusion of everything that might assist with a throw (such as prevent slipping). The wording after that describes the exceptions that are allowed including the pad in the Q&A which isn't official yet. So I simply say, "Show me the written exception that allows standing on the towel in the fairway."

Simply read the very first sentence in 803.04A. No artificial device may be used...
The rule starts with complete exclusion of everything that might assist with a throw (such as prevent slipping). The wording after that describes the exceptions that are allowed including the pad in the Q&A which isn't official yet. So I simply say, "Show me the written exception that allows standing on the towel in the fairway."

Does this mean that we can't wear shoes in the fairway?

Shoes are allowed for skin abrasion and are expressly required by the Competition Manual.

802.04 Artificial Devices

A. During a round, a player shall not use any artificial device that may assist in making a
throw, except those devices that reduce or control abrasion to the skin (such as gloves, tape,
bandages, gauze, etc.) and medical items (such as knee and ankle braces, etc.). Items used to prevent slipping on the teeing surface are also allowed. A player is specifically prohibited from using any artificial device that changes the position of the disc in the player's hand or artificially lengthens any of the player's throwing levers (fingers, wrist, arm, shoulder, etc.). The use of devices which assist in determining distances over 10 meters , such as range finders and GPS devices are prohibited. Measuring devices such as a tape measure may be carried and used to determine distances 10 meters and less for the purpose of rules enforcement.

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off

A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line
of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in
803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.

Shoes are allowed for skin abrasion and are expressly required by the Competition Manual.

Competition Manual 3.4C:
Sandals or slides are allowed. hmm, slides? I wonder if clogs are allowed as well?

I use a towel in the fairway. You say I can't. I pull out my rulebook and demand you show me the rule that says I can't do it. This isn't a "serious" argument, just pointing out in a tourney you can't stop a player from using a towel in the fairway... yet.

I think gotcha, Gotcha. You have been officially warned.

I could claim that a lever slinging device is going to reduce wear and tear on my arm and reduce chances of injury and yet it's not allowed.

Even further, there is a specific exception for bandages, but I expect everyone would agree that a player should not be permitted, under the current rule, to unroll a 500 foot long bandage having measurements written on it and use it as a range finder. In other words, some thought has to be given to the medical purpose of the medical item. If my understanding of the hinged elbow braces is correct, it is intended to be worn for a time to prevent reinjury following elbow surgery, or to prevent further injury of the ligaments, and not to prevent injury in the first place.

But, as a practical matter, the PDGA can't reasonably expect to be able to allow some players to wear them and others not, so they might choose to allow everyone to use them, and that probably would not be such a bad idea anyway. Alternatively, perhaps no one will be permitted to use them on their throwing arm under the theory that anyone who has had recent elbow surgery or ligament injury should not be playing in a tournament, unless they are using the other arm to throw.

However, I'm not confident I fully understand the intended uses of the hinged elbow braces as medical devices. Consultation with a sports medicine professional would be needed to resolve that question. I see some descriptions say:

Medial and lateral Range of Motion (ROM) hinges provide exceptional support through postoperative rehabilitation. Provides stability and may be adjusted to limit extension at 10�, 15�, 30� or 45� settings;

Application: Collateral ligament injury; Post surgical use; and

Useful in treating the following: Tendonitis Bursitis Pre/Post operative care.

The bottom line is Chuck is right when he says the only answer is to find out what the PDGA says. I would go to te Rules Committee. He would go to the Tour manager.

Hmmm, what if the RC says no and te Tour Manager says yes?

Tour Manager trumps RC even if he consults them. The artificial devices rule is also more of a competition versus core rule for playing the game.

Here's how it might go down in the real world if a player shows up with this elbow brace, and why I say I'm 50/50 on it. You ask the guy (or gal) if they were hurt. They say, "My elbow's been a little tender and this brace will keep me from overextending it." My reaction would be no problem. If the person says something like, "Check this out. I can just rip my drives 50 feet farther without worrying about hyperextending my elbow." My reaction would be they are foolish saying anything and trying to take advantage.

Medical items are specifically allowed, it doesn't say anything about prevention of original injury or reinjury. 802.04A What is specifically prohibited is anything to lengthen the throwing levers (love that phrase...). The hinged elbow brace is just fine, in my book.

Assuming ED is NOT Erectile Disfunction, I missed that statement. Am I correct in understanding that, according to the Executive Director, the Q&A is not to be taken as official rules? In that case, why haven't some of those situations been put into the rules? eg, "building" a lie with a towel. (BTW, the Q&A says 1 centimeter, not 1 inch.)

as far as the bandage with 500' in 12" increments, that's not allowed in any stretch of the rules. Stretch, get it...bandage...stretch...

g'nite...

A few years back, maybe 2005 or 2006, at the Memorial in AZ Feldberg hit a long difficult putt from a tight wooded gnarly spot while on one knee with a towel under his knee for protection from whatever was on the ground. Very impressive putt when he really needed it.

Smeone posted a video and it was pointed out on this then well used board that the rules Q&As prohibited using a towel under their knee like that. ED Brain Graham posted shortly thereafter that players couldn't be expected to keep track of the rules Q &As since they were only posted online, weren't published anywhere else, and players weren't notified when they changed. I am paraphrasing his comments but you get the idea. His was an entirely reasonable ruling.

There is currently an effort underway to formalize the Q&As and somehow make them part of the rules and we should see that in the next few years.

My point was just because something is in the Rules Q&As doesn't mean it is part of the rules nor will that situation be handled the same from tourney to tourney. Yet.

A few years back, maybe 2005 or 2006, at the Memorial in AZ Feldberg hit a long difficult putt from a tight wooded gnarly spot while on one knee with a towel under his knee for protection from whatever was on the ground. Very impressive putt when he really needed it.

Smeone posted a video and it was pointed out on this then well used board that the rules Q&As prohibited using a towel under their knee like that. ED Brain Graham posted shortly thereafter that players couldn't be expected to keep track of the rules Q &As since they were only posted online, weren't published anywhere else, and players weren't notified when they changed. I am paraphrasing his comments but you get the idea. His was an entirely reasonable ruling.



Here you go. That was a good DISCussion!
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=28064

For the record, that particular Q&A never prohibited kneeling on a towel behind one's lie. :)

Personally I don't think that an elbow brace that keeps one from over extending would help for distance. From the people I have seen throw far, the ones that have a natural hyper extension seem to be able to crush without power.

Tour Manager trumps RC even if he consults them. The artificial devices rule is also more of a competition versus core rule for playing the game.

Here's how it might go down in the real world if a player shows up with this elbow brace, and why I say I'm 50/50 on it. You ask the guy (or gal) if they were hurt. They say, "My elbow's been a little tender and this brace will keep me from overextending it." My reaction would be no problem. If the person says something like, "Check this out. I can just rip my drives 50 feet farther without worrying about hyperextending my elbow." My reaction would be they are foolish saying anything and trying to take advantage.


My next question is, is it normal that someone would hyperextend their elbow on a normal, hard throw, or is that worry perhaps the result of some previous injury or malformarion? I'm thinking that a hypertension that would cause pain is not normal. That's why there's pain. This kind of pain would likely indicate injury. Preventing hypertension with a brace would be preventing injury, or compensating for an existing injury.

I can't believe we're having this discussion. I can't really see where a hinged elbow brace is going to give someone an unfair advantage. The two I know that use a hinged elbow brace use them because if they didn't, they would not be able to play at all, or would not be able to play for several months after playing without the brace. If we're going to start disallowing hinged elbow or knee braces, holy smokes, then I think I'm going to smell a lawsuit coming.

My next question is, is it normal that someone would hyperextend their elbow on a normal, hard throw, or is that worry perhaps the result of some previous injury or malformarion? I'm thinking that a hypertension that would cause pain is not normal. That's why there's pain. This kind of pain would likely indicate injury. Preventing hypertension with a brace would be preventing injury, or compensating for an existing injury.


You can hyper extend your elbow on any throw that you lose the grip on, where you are trying to throw hard. A wet disc could do it. I've done it at least twice on thumbers. My grip on the disc slipped and I hyper-extended the elbow.

Should be no problem using that elbow brace, or an ace bandage or a tendon strap for tennis elbow..... Or a cast.

I played with a cast on my left wrist in the $50,000 tourney long ago at Huntington Beach. I had people complaining that it wasn't fair to have a cast on because I could still out throw everyone. This despite the fact that I had just gotten out of the hospital a few days before. Some people don't care about fairness or reason. They just want to complain.

Agreed, a brace or hinged device doesnt improve your level of skill. It merely allows you to play at the level of skill you currently posses. There are no gas-powered pistons that will propels your elbow into throwing magical 900 foot shots. Braces as LIMITING in nature, they COMPRESS your soft tissues for support, not give your super-human abilities a-la the green lantern.

If that were true, you're playing the wrong kind of golf my friend, there's millions to be made in "regular" golf. Patch up all extremeties and get to Augusta!

Braces should be allowed for medical and preventative reasons, I have no quips for someone who wears a wrist brace in bowling (and those CERTAINLY keep your form at an advantage), because in the end....you are still responsible for the throw. An elbow brace will never tell your eye-hand/mind-body connection to let go of that disc at the precision time and give the right amount of snap or touch. That's the human side.

P.S. just allow steroids already, see if the 1,000 foot disc flight can happen lol

I'm curious as to whether the people that oppose braces, in any fashion, also oppose energy drinks, caffienated drinks, powerbars etc. Those are a direct influence on your physical abilities.

I got an answer.

The use of an elbow brace, hinged or otherwise, is permissable under the current PDGA Rules of Play and Competition Manual. Please note that any type of extension that could grip and propel a disc would be illegal.

I'm always happy to respond to questions via email!

Thanks,

Andrew

Andrew" Big Dog" Sweeton
PDGA Tour Manager
Member #21582

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