Anyone have any info on this event? Format? Qualifying?

really?

this event is a new major championship and is only two months away and there's zero information about it?

There was a discussion here
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=1458049

in this discussion Chuck Kennedy says details should be released a few days after his last post which was on May 2nd. then nothing. as an avid supporter of the sport and lifestyle that is Disc Golf I’m very disappointed when things like this happen. a major 2 months away and the governing body has provided no information what so ever. I could understand if things of this nature where isolated occurrences but unfortunately i feel like they happen entirely to frequently.

The weekend is Sept 23-25 and these four divisions will be offered: Open Men & Women plus Advanced & Advanced Women. Board meeting is tonight so that may finalize certain details for posting within a week.

Thanks for the info on this Chuck. I hope the event
is run better than the preliminary planning :)

The weekend is Sept 23-25 and these four divisions will be offered: Open Men & Women plus Advanced & Advanced Women. Board meeting is tonight so that may finalize certain details for posting within a week.
Thanks for the info. Chuck.

"Championship"? One of the most overused and diluted terms in disc golf. Exceeding---

"Major", the number of which I'm always having trouble keeping track of. Any day now, we'll introduce "Super-Majors", perhaps Worlds and USDGC (in even-numbered years).

The day is coming when I'm the only disc golfer left without a "championship" of some sort attached to my resume.

"Championship"? One of the most overused and diluted terms in disc golf. Exceeding---

"Major", the number of which I'm always having trouble keeping track of. Any day now, we'll introduce "Super-Majors", perhaps Worlds and USDGC (in even-numbered years).

The day is coming when I'm the only disc golfer left without a "championship" of some sort attached to my resume.


Will smoking be tollerated at super majors?

Dave, for what it is worth, you have qualified for the 2010 DG poster of the year championship. Once I develop a criteria and figure out the logistics I'll let you know how you did. Be proud though that you have already been identified as a top five candidate.
(Please send $75.00 USD to ensure your elligibility to me)

I'm honored. The check is written, but I'm holding off mailing it to see if I can manage a World, US, PDGA, Global, Doubles, Masters, or National Tour championship, or State, SC Disc Golf, SC flying Disc, or SC State championship, or ratings leader or rankings leader or points leader or money leader or points series leader, national or state in any of the dozen or so divisions for which I qualify.

I'm honored. The check is written, but I'm holding off mailing it to see if I can manage a World, US, PDGA, Global, Doubles, Masters, or National Tour championship, or State, SC Disc Golf, SC flying Disc, or SC State championship, or ratings leader or rankings leader or points leader or money leader or points series leader, national or state in any of the dozen or so divisions for which I qualify.

For a measly $150 more you will be entered into the "Champions of all Championships Disc Golf Association" and can attain elligibility for all of these other sub-championships. Just send the check already.

Oh, I forgot. Multiply that list by Superclass.

I don't mean to be too negative. I applaud all efforts by anyone to expand the disc golf universe. I'd just like a little discretion in the use of the word "championship", and prefer the PDGA make the elite level---Majors and NTs---a little more, well, elite.

As for the actual topic, I hope the PDGA will grant blanket waivers in the exclusion zone. I'm in the area and this is a prime weekend on a crowded tournament calendar---about the first time summer heat has receded---and it would be a shame to reserve it for a single event.

really?

this event is a new major championship and is only two months away and there's zero information about it?

Don't start this here too Denny - :)

The Worlds is one thing to pick on - but if you anger these people in this thread, they will not just stop posting here like the poster in the Pro Worlds thread did because you asked a simple question - they will take the ENTIRE Discussion Board with them. :)

Remember - No information is good information! :)

Update: Invites are going out late next week with tournament details which they are finalizing over the next 7 days.

Update: Invites are going out late next week with tournament details which they are finalizing over the next 7 days.


That's great.

The only pieces of info I need are # of courses/layouts and estimated purse.

really?

this event is a new major championship and is only two months away and there's zero information about it?

This is par for the course these days.

To wit, there's a National Tour Event in California this weekend and as far as I can tell, no thread was ever created in PDGA Tournament Info for it. Either internet access doesn't exist in South Lake Tahoe or the slowness of the PDGA website has scared off everyone for good. :(

This is par for the course these days.

To wit, there's a National Tour Event in California this weekend and as far as I can tell, no thread was ever created in PDGA Tournament Info for it. Either internet access doesn't exist in South Lake Tahoe or the Lameness of the PDGA website has scared off everyone for good. :(

Fixed! This website has gone down the drain in the last few years.

This is par for the course these days.

To wit, there's a National Tour Event in California this weekend and as far as I can tell, no thread was ever created in PDGA Tournament Info for it. Either internet access doesn't exist in South Lake Tahoe or the slowness of the PDGA website has scared off everyone for good. :(
How exactly are the lack of a thread for King of the Lake and the lack of info on the PDGA championships at all related?

Criticize the PDGA folks for their apparent slow movement about the Championships, that's fine (and probably deserved). But the lack of a thread about King of the Lake isn't the PDGA's fault, it's the TD and staff that dropped the ball there. Look at the other NT threads...started by either the TD, a staffer/club member, or a player.

I did a cursory google search for any mentions of the King of the Lake tournament in case it's a matter of the PDGA site not being the center of the universe it used to be. There's no talk about it anywhere. The tournament website is rather barren (course maps, schedule, sponsor list, that's about it). No Facebook or Twitter that I can find. Scores should be rolling in for round one by now and there's nothing. I'm sure they'll be up tonight at some point, but nothing is happening "live" like the article on the front page suggests.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by the near saturation coverage of events like USDGC, the Vibram or the Memorial.

Scores should be rolling in for round one by now and there's nothing. I'm sure they'll be up tonight at some point, but nothing is happening "live" like the article on the front page suggests.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by the near saturation coverage of events like USDGC, the Vibram or the Memorial.

I've been watching scores for King of the Lake roll in card-by-card over the last several hours. First round is now complete:

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/61921

To wit, there's a National Tour Event in California this weekend and as far as I can tell, no thread was ever created in PDGA Tournament Info for it. Either internet access doesn't exist in South Lake Tahoe or the slowness of the PDGA website has scared off everyone for good.
Perhaps it's a Nevada thing... What goes down in Tahoe, stays in Tahoe...;)

I live and play in Norcal, and have noticed the lack of a presence on the PDGA Board despite (or maybe because of?) the many great players we have in this part of the country and the very active and well run Norcal series that draws thousands of players every year.

People generally tend to use the Norcal Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/57399481086
and/or the Norcal website:
http://www.norcalseries.com/

That's great.

The only pieces of info I need are # of courses/layouts and estimated purse.

Usually this kind of information is not released until closer to the event, due to the necessity of figuring out the number of registrants. The general rule of thumb for the IDGC is that you will play at least 2 out of the 3 courses throughout the weekend.

I would direct questions regarding this event directly to the TD: ASweeton@pdga.com

Or check for updates here: www.pdga.com/idgc/events

I believe that invites have gone out for this event, and registration will begin soon here:

http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1310577815


Thanks!

Are the invites for just pro's or AM's as well.

Ams, too, for guys over 934 rating.

How many AM's are getting in then?

Ams, too, for guys over 934 rating. Cool, well it's good that my rating is miscalculated for including two 999 rounds from an XC tier w/ mulligans back from Feb'11; that pushes me over 934!

How many AM's are getting in then?
I don't think there are any limits other than what the courses at the IDGC can handle and even that wouldn't necessarily have to be a limit if they decide to increase the event. No one knows what to expect for this first time. There may be goal numbers posted for the divisions but it will be first come, first served on signups for invitees. If it's massive entries, they'll figure something out. More likely, it will be opened up for lower rated players after some date similar to Worlds if it's not full.

Should be a great event to attend if you haven't visited the IDGC yet. Should be pleasant weather around then. The Fall Summit meeting with the new Board starts the day after the PDGA Championship so members can check it out.

Thanks Chuck, that just answered a bunch of questions.

I searched the IDGC page on the PDGA site today, nothing... which brought me here. This is one of the closest PDGA Major events to Florida since '06 Pro Worlds. I'd love to promote this to our active players... but really need more info! Thanks in advance!

Bryan Moore
PDGA State Coordinator of Florida

Invitational Event - if you aren't Climo or rated higher than 970 - you ain't invited as a pro.
:)

Invitational Event - if you aren't Climo or rated higher than 970 - you ain't invited as a pro.
:)


True it is a PRO/AM event with no age protected divisions, and this is how they decided to make a cut line for invitations.

Anyone who wants to play in this event will get in IMO, as it will not fill based off of invitees, and we will open registration to everyone at some point. We could probably take over 300 players if we went with a tee time format, and the IDGC has never seen over 160 players for any one event.

True it is a PRO/AM event with no age protected divisions, and this is how they decided to make a cut line for invitations.

Anyone who wants to play in this event will get in IMO, as it will not fill based off of invitees, and we will open registration to everyone at some point. We could probably take over 300 players if we went with a tee time format, and the IDGC has never seen over 160 players for any one event.

This is why I don't understand the wasting of time and resources of doing invites for a first year Event in the first place.

Just say it is Pro / ADV Divisions only as it is and see who signs up - and just like the USDGC does (in PRO years) you'll still have the 850 rated guy getting in - But you might as well let as many playeys as possibly fit in who want to play the first year and build it to an Exclusive Event from there (ala the USDGC) - instead of angering MORE paying members who feel that they are being excluded from a PDGA (NOT INNOVA RUN) Major.

This is just my opinion as the State Coordinator (hopefully still after AUG 7th :) ) in the state the IDGC is located in..

Keith

Using invites has been shown to increase interest and attendance. Ask Breiner.

PLEASE - for Worlds maybe - but the others are based on Qualifiers and limited spots (like for Vibram - USDGC) - neither which are happening or apply to the PDGA's Version of the ODD year PRO USDGC.

The members had to create a post and ask about this first year LARGE Event 12 days ago and it is only 2 months away.

If this had been talked about all year and mentioned every now and then like USDGC and VIBRAM - then the invite idea might work better, because players would KNOW about it - right now it's just an Event on the East coast that is at the IDGC that hundreds will get an invite to, and tens will respond. :(

Invites and deadlines can make a difference no matter what event they are done for because more people pre-reg earlier which helps the TD for planning. It's also another way for the PDGA to reinforce the value of ratings even if it's just in a small way.

Nevermind - you are TOTALLY missing my point.

*Hypothectical way it SHOULD BE DONE using common sense*

EVERY CURRENT PDGA member rated over 970 can sign up beginning on X DAY.
EVERY CURRENT PDGA member rated 950 to 969 can sign up beginning on X DAY if spots are still available.
EVERY CURRENT PDGA member rated 900 to 949 can sign up beginning on X DAY if spots are still available.
EVERY CURRENT PDGA member any rating can sign up beginning on X DAY if spots are still available.

There will be NO day of signups and ALL entries MUST BE received by SEPTEMBER 20th, 2011 - NO EXCEPTIONS!

This hypothectical solution above accomplishes the nonsense you are trying to say, costs NOTHING in time or labor to implement, and allows the Event to maintain hype over the course of months (if it had been started months ago) - which also helps take away the perceived "sting" the pros are feeling about "losing" the USDGC this year.

All of the 50+ Events I have TD'ed have been run with Pre-Reg only and NO Day of signups - and it makes my life easier - as I have the cards done, the board set, payouts envelopes for all divisions filled out (AMs choose their own prizes) before I even leave the house on Event day - the ties are dealt with quickly at the end before awards and everything runs pretty smooth. In 16 years of doing this, I've learned how to make my life and the players lives easier for the most part.

If you see a better way than described above to EASILY accomplish the same thing - I'd love to see it - as I'm never to old to learn if there is a better way. :)

Keith

Don't expect me to ever invite you to anything...;)

Don't expect me to ever invite you to anything...;)

The sad part is I'm NOT invited to this already - becuase I'm not rated good enough to play. :(

If it wasn't for my common sense posts, and your "unable to defend the defenseless"
reply posts - this thread would have 40 views instead of over 800 - so at least some people are learning about this MAJOR if nothing else gets accomplished :)

Are you going to be out west for Worlds? I see you aren't playing, but maybe to observe?

If so, I will invite you out for a Pepsi. :)

Can anyone confirm that AM invitations went out? And what was the criteria used to determine who received invitations?

And what was the criteria used to determine who received invitations?
According to the ad in DiscGolfer magazine, these are the invitation qualifications:

Pro Men rated 970 or higher
Pro Women rated 800 or higher
Am Men rated 935 or higher
Am Women rated 750 or higher
All winners of 2011 PDGA Majors in MPO, FPO, MA1, FW1
All winners of 2011 NTs in MPO, FPO
All winners of 2011 PDGA Supertours in MPO, FPO, MA1, FW1

If you fit any of those categories, you've got an invitation coming. If not, you're out of luck.

If so, I will invite you out for a Pepsi. :)

Keith, I think you meant to say, a twelve pack of Pepsi ;)

So then invitations have not gone out yet?

If no one's gotten one then it might be the case. The IT and Tour Managers are both at Am Worlds so it may not be until next week.

Usually this kind of information is not released until closer to the event, due to the necessity of figuring out the number of registrants. The general rule of thumb for the IDGC is that you will play at least 2 out of the 3 courses throughout the weekend.

I would direct questions regarding this event directly to the TD: ASweeton@pdga.com

Or check for updates here: www.pdga.com/idgc/events

I believe that invites have gone out for this event, and registration will begin soon here:

http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1310577815


Thanks!

Posted last week.

Keith, I think you meant to say, a twelve pack of Pepsi ;)

No - I don't drink that much anymore and only less than 24 OZ during BOTH rounds of an Event for the past couple of years now. I've been drinking Gatorade/Powerade and water and just use the Pepsi for sugar to stay even throught the rounds - alteranting between all 3 drinks every few holes. Might go with 1 liter with Worlds as they are 27 hole rounds though.

Back on topic:
In my opinion if this Event is "replacing the USDGC" in odd years as it is claimed or perceived to be, then the PDGA State Coordinators should have a spot to give away just like they did for the USDGC. :(

No - I don't drink that much anymore and only less than 24 OZ during BOTH rounds of an Event for the past couple of years now. I've been drinking Gatorade/Powerade and water and just use the Pepsi for sugar to stay even throught the rounds - alteranting between all 3 drinks every few holes. Might go with 1 liter with Worlds as they are 27 hole rounds though.

Back on topic:
In my opinion if this Event is "replacing the USDGC" in odd years as it is claimed or perceived to be, then the PDGA State Coordinators should have a spot to give away just like they did for the USDGC. :(


I agree Keith, maybe lobby your favorite board member as they decided to make it an invite event and with the help of chuck decided the qualifications. I wanted it to be an open invite event as i thought this would be the first time in which we could finally fill all 3 courses at the IDGC. I think as this event grows over the years it will become the great event that everyone wants, plus what event is not great at the IDGC?!?!?! Andrew is working hard on organizing some great trophies and player's packs, as well as a website and the invites. You also have to realize he is super busy with both world championships and the other NT events as well as learning a new job. Give this event a chance I think it will be a really awesome experience for all that are involved!

As a sidenote, roughly 2500 PDGA members qualify for an invite so it's not THAT exclusive to start.

As a sidenote, roughly 2500 PDGA members qualify for an invite so it's not THAT exclusive to start.

So already 1 out of every 6 current members get invited, 5% of those will respond and then you will open it to everyone - and with the point that Jason makes also with the Worlds going on for 2 weeks that staff AND invited players will be focusing on - It's alot of work and effort for NO reason.

This makes it all the more silly that nobody but me thought of (or at least publically mentioned) the only real way it should have been done ESPECIALLY in the first year to build interest. It would require NO one at the office to be there to worry about invites, or having to worry about interefering with Worlds signups or players playing in the actual Worlds Events - and just by giving a 3-4 week window for each of the stages, it gives EVERYONE time to make a decision and plans.

Posted again below so someone can copy it to use for 2012: :)

*Hypothectical way it SHOULD BE DONE using common sense*

EVERY CURRENT PDGA member rated over 970 can sign up beginning on X DAY.
EVERY CURRENT PDGA member rated 950 to 969 can sign up beginning on X DAY if spots are still available.
EVERY CURRENT PDGA member rated 900 to 949 can sign up beginning on X DAY if spots are still available.
EVERY CURRENT PDGA member any rating can sign up beginning on X DAY if spots are still available.

There will be NO day of signups and ALL entries MUST BE received by SEPTEMBER 20th, 2011 - NO EXCEPTIONS!

Along with Jason, I'd also LOVE to see the IDGC at full capacity of 216 or with tee times around 350 or so (lack of daylight at that time of year) - and maybe one year it will be.

As long as it is invite only with the parameters set as they are now - it will NEVER fill until the field is open to everyone.

Keith, your complaining looks foolish at this point and isn't helping. The PDGA who is running the event chose to do invites partly because there wasn't time to do qualifying events like might be done in the future. It's their choice as TD just like you can choose to do various things your way as TD. It's southern hospitality. It's a done deal. It doesn't matter if a new elite event doesn't fill. That's what makes it elite is to have higher rated players than "dilute" the competition with lower rated players. With any fixed amount of added cash, a smaller pro field actually increases the top prize.

Keith, your complaining looks foolish at this point and isn't helping. The PDGA who is running the event chose to do invites partly because there wasn't time to do qualifying events like might be done in the future. It's their choice as TD just like you can choose to do various things your way as TD. It's southern hospitality. It's a done deal. It doesn't matter if a new elite event doesn't fill. That's what makes it elite is to have higher rated players than "dilute" the competition with lower rated players. With any fixed amount of added cash, a smaller pro field actually increases the top prize.

No Pepsi for you! :)

After taking time to form a rational reply - I'll now respond to your post Chuck.

Keep in mind I like you personally, agree with alot of your ideas and thoughts, and like to playfully banter with you every now and then - but with that being said, I think you are trying to make this a personal issue for some reason and that is NOT my intention in any way shape or form.
Hell - EVEN Jason agreed with me - which in of itself tells me I might be making a tiny, tiny bit of sense on some points. :)

First of all - One of the SC job descriptions is to act as a liason and to relay to the PDGA concerns of the players in their state. This being an Invitaional MAJOR in MY State means I might have more questions from players or opinions about the Event than the SC from Hawaii might have.

Secondly - Because you disagree with me and know that it "may" have been done incorrectly this time - doesn't make me or my responses look foolish in my opinion - please keep in mind that another PDGA Member is the one who 2 months before the Event asked about it to start this thread and six different people were asking questions in this thread before I first posted.
Also it might give other TD's ideas of different things to do with Events, ala the Gangloff sliding scale idea that other TD's have tried or adopted - the Oregon guys tried a lottery system for their highly successful annual Event this year, talking about it (even though it is not used for this Event), may spark someone else to think about it or something similar for thier Events. Alot of the ideas I use in My Events sprang from someone else whose Event I played in (Zedaracky rule being one) - some of the GA TD's do things they saw in my Events and so on - circle of life type stuff. :)

Thirdly - My "hypothetical" scenario was presented to show that without the time for Qualifiers - that there were much better and more cost effective for the members - ways to accomplish what you are trying to accomplish.

Fourth - I didn't say it needed to be done my way or else - I'm just putting MY opinion as a paying PDGA Member as well as a PDGA representative of the state the Event is being held in to ask the questions that were asked of me but have still yet to be answered by anyone.
Like this one:
Is there going to be a spot available for each of the State Coordinators to award to someone from their state? - After all as you (Chuck) have stated on this discussion board and others "this is the PDGA equivalent of the PRO USDGC" for alternate years. How about it, do you know?

Fifth - I didn't see you attacking or calling out Big Wave Dave, Denny, David Sauls, Craig or Sammy Sheehan for their posts which was more attacking of the info not being posted or how it was being diseminated - and my first post was an attempt at humor to try and keep the bashing from going further on EVERYTHING PDGA - not really only about the Event lack of info.

Sixth - I also NEVER started posting ANYTHING about my opinions or ideas until Jason mentioned this 5 days ago:

True it is a PRO/AM event with no age protected divisions, and this is how they decided to make a cut line for invitations.

Anyone who wants to play in this event will get in IMO, as it will not fill based off of invitees, and we will open registration to everyone at some point. We could probably take over 300 players if we went with a tee time format, and the IDGC has never seen over 160 players for any one event.

Seventh - if you can't take my opinions, want to keep making it personal, or hate my sense of humor - you could always "LaGrassa" me and you wouldn't see any of my posts any longer :)

Barring that - I'd really like an answer to the question in the forth bullet point if someone knows, so that I can let the players who have asked me as the SC know what the plan is (if there is one to allow someone from each state a spot)

Thanks in advance,
Keith Johnson
PDGA #10444
PDGA State Rep for Georgia

You should know by now that you only "win" if you persuade Brian Graham by sending your thoughts directly to him and not posting here. I have little skin in this event so there's nothing personal. My involvement has strictly been providing Brian guidance on how many players would be included at different ratings breaks if he wanted to invite players.

Having likely gotten burned by NOT inviting players the second year of the Mid-Nationals in 2006 (invites first year 125, no invites second year 35), I support the promotional value and ego boost of invites for special events, especially ones directly hosted by the org where I'm a member. We already know that maybe 20 players who qualify might read this thread (maybe 5 more if we keep up this "heated" exchange) and maybe 100 will remember reading whatever eventually gets posted on the Home page. Maybe 1000 will at least partly read their PDGA invite and appreciate the effort.

Keith, I would never ignore you. You have a lot of ideas and I usually agree with them more than I disagree with them. You don't take sides and will support whatever simply makes the most intuitive sense to you and I respect you greatly for that. In that vein, I think I identify with you because I believe that we both just call 'em like we see 'em.

Frankly, once again I think we have a simple case where the idea may have been keen but the execution, and especially the communication, has been abysmal. I know that this is the busiest time of the whole year but we're less than two months away from a new major and the fact that no one has apparently received an invitation, as well as the lack of information about the event in general, is absolutely unacceptable imo.

As the State Coordinator there I think you are being as reasonable as could be possible. If I were in your shoes, I think I'd be downright livid.

Thanks Jeff! I appreciate the comments you made. I also like how even though we disagree on some principles, that you treat people consistently for the most part - for good or bad. :)

I didn't mean that you would personally ignore me - I just used you as an example - as you and Bruce are the ones who publically admit you have people "on ignore" - so I was giving Chuck the option of doing that to me if he didn't like what was being said.

I also like how it sounds being "LaGrassa'd" over being "Brakel'd" :) and although it is a close one in my mind - I think more people would get the "on ignore" part with your name than Bruce as sometimes he is all over the map with his posts, whereas you are pretty consistent with your thoughts and comments.


Chuck thinks I only want to "win" - and somehow misses the point that I just want what most PDGA members want - INFO!
But I would mainly like for this discussion board and website to be the FIRST place people WANT to go to for info on PDGA Events - not the last!

Just as an example, More people have talked about and posted on DGCR about things they would like to see or mentioning bugs in the PDGA app than the people who post on this website - even though it is stickied here and the guy who worked /works on it answers questions and concerns here. :(

Again these are just MY opinions,
Keith

Chuck, do we have a host hotel yet for 2012 Am World championships in Charlotte?

Don't know. Doesn't look like they've got a website up yet. It's usually not good form to promote your website for the next Worlds until the previous one is completed.

Chuck, do we have a host hotel yet for 2012 Am World championships in Charlotte?

Think it's still in the works.

definitely agree with chuck on the value of invites as a promotional tool. i got excellent results using them for the disc golf cruise and la vie en rose. i would argue, however, that the timing is a bit late and won't yield as much bang for the buck as it could have.

good news, for me, is that i'm confident that i'll be able to get in and am greatly looking forward to playing the first ever PDGA championships at my favorite disc golf venue. folks, if it's at all possible for you to schedule the trip, it is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!

Think it's still in the works.

ok, i am not gonna miss this one.

Chuck, do we have a host hotel yet for 2012 Am World championships in Charlotte?



Host hotel for 2012 worlds will be The Blake in downtown Charlotte. I believe $89/night.

I just saw this tournament on the events schedule. I hunted for information (feed me Seymour) and found nothing except this thread. I wonder if it is going to happen and when all pertinant information will be available. I was also wondering who wrote the book of love. Been married 30 years today.

Stan,

Congrats on your 30 year anniversary.

Big Dog has been busy beyond belief in the past 3 weeks with Am Worlds and Pro Worlds prep, but he is working on the PDGA Championship site and more information should be forthcoming.

I come to this thread seeking information about the actual tournament and what do I get? Bunch of back and forth that has nothing to do with the topic, big surprise.

All the information that about the event that is currently available can be found here: http://www.pdga.com/pdga-championships

Invitations went out this week via email, and please direct specific questions directly to the TD at asweeton@pdga.com. Andrew has been extremely busy and will field questions in between, but i don't believe he has time to check the message board.

Andrew has been extremely busy and will field questions in between, but i don't believe he has time to check the message board.
while i applaud Andrew's decision to take on the responsibility of TD'ing this event it is the sentiment above that is Disheartening to hear. This is a PDGA event and this is the PDGA message board. THIS is where all questions issues and banter SHOULD be. period. the idea that makeing a busy persons life easier by instructing people to e-mail the TD individually instead of making a single reply that reaches everyone is propsterious. Please keep all informatin on this event HERE where everyone (including the TD) can come at their Leisure and get or provide the information they need. thanks.

I somewhat agree that the idea invites could increase anticipation for the event.

However, that enthusiasm will more than squashed by the lack of information available for the event, and the fact that we're less than 45 days from the start of the event. Even if I were invited and wanted to attend the event, it might be impossible to take time off/arrange my schedule to be able to attend. I predict there will be few players outside of a 4-5 hour drive from the event.

This new major is not off to a very good start.

Pretty sure I'll be playing this one. Will all divisions play all three courses? or will we just have to learn two? I have only played Warner once.

Will it be...
Pros play A, B, A
Ams play B, C, B
Women play C, A, C?

Or will it be
Pros A, B, C
Ams B, C, A
Women C, A, B?

Or... just lump all pros in one field
Pros (men and women) A, B, C or A, B, A
Ams (men and women) B, C, A or B, C, B or B, A, B

I'm sure we'll have a decent am turnout, and pros should flock to it.

I am registered. No wait list for me...

Just signed up. Now I just need to get there.

while i applaud Andrew's decision to take on the responsibility of TD'ing this event it is the sentiment above that is Disheartening to hear. This is a PDGA event and this is the PDGA message board. THIS is where all questions issues and banter SHOULD be. period. the idea that makeing a busy persons life easier by instructing people to e-mail the TD individually instead of making a single reply that reaches everyone is propsterious. Please keep all informatin on this event HERE where everyone (including the TD) can come at their Leisure and get or provide the information they need. thanks.

Absolutely not. It's been said before, and I'll say it again for the 500th time.

This message board is an extremely inefficient medium for conveying official information, due to a number of factors, but mostly because it's often difficult for people to differentiate what's official information from totally unadulterated crap. I don't know how many phone calls I got before 2009 Worlds about certain things that were posted by well-meaning individuals, but those individuals didn't know what the heck they were talking about. The TD often has to spend too much time debunking all of the misinformation on the message board, and not enough time planning his own event.


If you want an answer to your question, you should actually take the time to pick up the phone and call the TD, or send him a direct email. I don't see what's so difficult about that.

Chap

Whether this is the best place or not to post info I certainly don't think it would hurt to put a sticky on this thread so an upcoming MAJOR gets listed near the top of the tournament list.

Absolutely not. It's been said before, and I'll say it again for the 500th time.

This message board is an extremely inefficient medium for conveying official information, due to a number of factors, but mostly because it's often difficult for people to differentiate what's official information from totally unadulterated crap. I don't know how many phone calls I got before 2009 Worlds about certain things that were posted by well-meaning individuals, but those individuals didn't know what the heck they were talking about. The TD often has to spend too much time debunking all of the misinformation on the message board, and not enough time planning his own event.


If you want an answer to your question, you should actually take the time to pick up the phone and call the TD, or send him a direct email. I don't see what's so difficult about that.

Chap
Chap,
having 100's people send indivdual e-mails asking the exact same question does not do anyone especially the TD any favors. reguardless of this mesasge boards performance or lack there of t this is the PDGA Championships and the information should be on the PDGA discussion board. Yeah that is a great suggestion have hundreds of stangers call someone. that makes tons of sense.....please

Chap,
having 100's people send indivdual e-mails asking the exact same question does not do anyone especially the TD any favors. reguardless of this mesasge boards performance or lack there of t this is the PDGA Championships and the information should be on the PDGA discussion board. Yeah that is a great suggestion have hundreds of stangers call someone. that makes tons of sense.....please
Generally as a TD, if the same question arises more than once from players, I make a point of answering it publicly, either on a discussion forum like this or adding the info to the official tournament website/flyer/program. Because if it's something that, as you say, "100s" of people will ask, it's something that should be on the flyer or website anyway.

Chappy's 100% right. If you have a question about a tournament, the best way to get an answer and know that it's correct info is to go direct to the TD. Even if the TD is someone who frequently reads and posts on the forum, it's very easy for a question to get lost in the shuffle. I mean, if there are 30 new posts on a thread between log-ins, just by shear volume the TD is bound to overlook something.

My suggestion to the folks that want to contain things to the discussion thread...post your question/comment, then email the TD with a link to your post and ask for a reply. Far more likely to get a response than simply posting and hoping he sees it.

Chap,
having 100's people send indivdual e-mails asking the exact same question does not do anyone especially the TD any favors. reguardless of this mesasge boards performance or lack there of t this is the PDGA Championships and the information should be on the PDGA discussion board. Yeah that is a great suggestion have hundreds of stangers call someone. that makes tons of sense.....please

Actually, as a TD, I'd rather get the direct questions than have to plow through the message board every day and look for questions. If you want to know an answer, call me or email me. Don't post on a message board I might or might not be reading every day. Add to that there's likely also a club message board, state message board, etc..., and there's not enough time in my day to go through all of that. I'm always happy to answer direct questions, email flyers, official information, etc...

If I'm getting the same questions over and over again, I would likely post it in an announcement-only thread similar to the one we used for 2009 Worlds. That way, I'm in control of the information going out, and everyone knows that thread is official information, and that it can be trusted.

J-connel / Chap,
as a TD i have used this message board as an invaluable tool to make my event the best it can be. while we can go back and forth on which is the best way to diseminate infomration on a PDGA event plain and simple this is not a local event this is an NT which has access to multiple courses and could possiby have a field well over 200 people. and the best place for a PDGA memeber to go to find out information is the PDGA website. You can not rationally argue that point. we are not talking about a local C-tier here.

This message board and site gives the player one and only one place that they can go to for information. this makes for efficiency and it sounds like that is what we are all striving for. I am not against contacting a TD with questions i am trying to make a point that if there is a central place that a player can come to get information and if there is a central place that a TD can come to post information this will make the TD's and players lives easier in the long run. I can guarentee this because it has worked for me!

J-connel / Chap,
as a TD i have used this message board as an invaluable tool to make my event the best it can be. while we can go back and forth on which is the best way to diseminate infomration on a PDGA event plain and simple this is not a local event this is an NT. and the best place for a PDGA memeber to go to find out information is the PDGA website. You can not rationally argue that point. we are not talking about a local C-tier here.

This message board and site gives the player one and only one place that they can go to for information. this makes for efficiency and it sounds like that is what we are all striving for. I am not against contacting a TD with questions i am trying to make a point that if there is a central place that a player can come to get information and if there is a central place that a TD can come to post information this will make the TD's and players lives easier in the long run. I can guarentee this because it has worked for me!
You'll get no disagreement from me about there being a central place for information about a tournament, but you'll never get me to agree that any message board is that place. Could the website/flyer for this event be better? Absolutely. But I don't think that problem would be solved by Andrew coming on here more often. That problem would be solved by the site here (http://www.pdga.com/IDGC/events) containing more details than date and location.

I don't think Chappy or I are trying to argue that a message board doesn't have its uses in promoting an event. It just serves as a poor way to disseminate official information in an organized manner.

J,
How does a message board serve as a poor way to ask for and provide information? I would argue the exact opposite. a linear date and time stamped message board was made for this purpose. Lets take mr. Peckhams question above as a perfect example of the usefulness of this medium. one it is a great question. two it is pertinent information that i am sure alot of people are thinking about after reading it.

J,
How does a message board serve as a poor way to ask for and provide information? I would argue the exact opposite. a linear date and time stamped message board was made for this purpose. Lets take mr. Peckhams question above as a perfect example of the usefulness of this medium. one it is a great question. two it is pertinent information that i am sure alot of people are thinking about after reading it.

Read the whole page in like 3 min.

Anyway I can't attend but even if I could the information on the event is abysmal. One day I will make it out to the IDGC but it won't happen by blindly registering for a Major we know nothing about.

Tanner asked what I wanted to know earlier in the thread and I have been checking back occasionally to see nothing new released about the event.

Glad to hear those invites went out!...lol

J,
How does a message board serve as a poor way to ask for and provide information? I would argue the exact opposite. a linear date and time stamped message board was made for this purpose. Lets take mr. Peckhams question above as a perfect example of the usefulness of this medium. one it is a great question. two it is pertinent information that i am sure alot of people are thinking about after reading it.

It just serves as a poor way to disseminate official information in an organized manner.
Just want to emphasize the part about being organized. Yes, a thread is linear. But it's also open to be posted on by anyone on the forum. Meaning that someone could very easily post incorrect info or answer questions incorrectly and people can take that misinformation as correct.

And while it's a great place for Matt to ask his question like you point out, what happens if he asks it on page 3 like he has, but it goes unanswered until page 6 of the thread? Should a person be required to read through pages and pages of a discussion thread to cull out bits and pieces of info? Or would it be better to have a central location (a website, a flyer) with all pertinent info included?

That's my only point. Discussion has its role in promotion, but it can't be information central for an event.

I had thoughts of possibly making it, but with the lack of info, a players list, or really any useful info I am pretty sure I wont be now...and this is a Major?

As John Champan has pointed out the possibility of using - then ignored - the ANNOUNCE only threads should be mandatory for EVERY PDGA NT, WORLDS, AND MAJORS!!!

The TD posts info in the announce only thread and links to ONE website where questions can be asked and answered - and if you follow what I have done for all my Events - I always post that if you don't see it in writing from me consider it NOT TRUE!

Solves all the problems and concerns mentioned in this thread easily and gives the TD 1 place ONLY to check for info and answer questions in.

PDGA RUN Events - should be talked about on the PDGA Website first and foremost!

Just my opinion as always,
Keith

I had thoughts of possibly making it, but with the lack of info, a players list, or really any useful info I am pretty sure I wont be now...and this is a Major?

true that the communication has been completely fumbled on this event, BUT it will still be the first in a line of PDGA Championships that are sure to grow in prestige at an absolutely amazing venue. the IDGC is an absolute must-visit destination for any disc golfer and this event is sure to be memorable.

....gives the TD 1 place ONLY to check for info and answer questions in.

Keith

Still say one of the greatest, longest, and most informative Event threads ever was the 2002 AM WORLDS thread as everyone from that era will attest!

If you wanted to know the answer or didn't want to know and wished I would shut up - I was still telling you anyways. :)

As John Champan has pointed out the possibility of using - then ignored - the ANNOUNCE only threads should be mandatory for EVERY PDGA NT, WORLDS, AND MAJORS!!!

The TD posts info in the announce only thread and links to ONE website where questions can be asked and answered - and if you follow what I have done for all my Events - I always post that if you don't see it in writing from me consider it NOT TRUE!

Solves all the problems and concerns mentioned in this thread easily and gives the TD 1 place ONLY to check for info and answer questions in.

PDGA RUN Events - should be talked about on the PDGA Website first and foremost!

Just my opinion as always,
Keith

Keith,

Not sure what you mean by "ignoring it", unless we perhaps didn't use it as much as you would have liked. We asked for an announce-only thread for 2009 Worlds, and PDGA provided such thread on this message board, which we used judiciously. There was also a thread on the regular board for Worlds for regular discussion, which is absolutely appropriate, as long as people realize the only official info is contained in the announce-only thread, or any other websites that the announce-only thread might point to. Otherwise, I agree mostly with what you said above. As far as a question and answer website, I don't necessarily agree with that, although if you simply meant a contact email and phone number, then yes, I do agree with that. A heavily moderated Q&A thread might also work, sort of like an FAQ. Otherwise, an undermoderated Q&A thread might become unwieldy and disorganized, and that makes it difficult to find the info you're looking for, and that's what I was trying to point out above, and Josh stated that point much more coherently than I did.

The invitations did help get the word out to those who received them, if for no other reason than my invitiation was the very first time I'd ever heard of the event.

The short amount of time to decide whether or not to go was surprising.
The proximity of the scheduling to the US Women's DG Championship was daunting.
And it is a large additional expense to budget on such short notice.

Then I asked my main client if the additional time away would be inconvenient, and they offerred to sponsor me :ROFL:

The invitations did help get the word out to those who received them, if for no other reason than my invitiation was the very first time I'd ever heard of the event.

The short amount of time to decide whether or not to go was surprising.
The proximity of the scheduling to the US Women's DG Championship was daunting.
And it is a large additional expense to budget on such short notice.

Then I asked my main client if the additional time away would be inconvenient, and they offerred to sponsor me :ROFL:


Well at least you got your invite......I haven't even received the last few magazines......

I'm signed up, didn't get an invite... that I am aware of... and could use information... if it was sent via email or in the mail, how about an online version? It's not secret info is it? I just realized I have shelled out $207.50 for a tournament that I don't know anything about other than the dates and the tier level and the divisions. OK, and the town it's in. Other than that, I would like to know about:

Courses being played and in what order
Is it tee times? All rounds?
Payout target
% of field for payout
Pre competition events
Nightly activities
Players packs
Lodging info

I'm signed up, didn't get an invite... that I am aware of... and could use information... if it was sent via email or in the mail, how about an online version?

http://www.pdga.com/pdga-championships

thanks Steve! Where did you find that?

thanks Steve! Where did you find that? In my invitation email.

thanks Steve! Where did you find that?

Mr. P. - If you didn't or weren't going to get an Invite - "all-in" signup opens on SEPT 2nd - so you would be good to go then with your already entered entry. :) (barring the Event selling out 300+ spots in the next 2 weeks from invites)

supposedly I got the invite, but I never got the invite. I'm 988 or so rated... so I should have...

Figured I'd try to register... what's the worst that can happen?

http://www.pdga.com/IDGC/events

supposedly I got the invite, but I never got the invite. I'm 988 or so rated... so I should have...

Figured I'd try to register... what's the worst that can happen?

Nothing bad will happen. They'll likely "hold" your entry until September 2 (assuming that's the day they open the tourney to everyone...someone will likely correct me if I'm wrong), then they will put you officially in the field on 9/2. They used do the same with Worlds, if I recall. Since this tourney isn't going to fill between now and 9/2, I'd say you have no worries.

Nothing bad will happen. They'll likely "hold" your entry until September 2 (assuming that's the day they open the tourney to everyone...someone will likely correct me if I'm wrong), then they will put you officially in the field on 9/2. They used do the same with Worlds, if I recall. Since this tourney isn't going to fill between now and 9/2, I'd say you have no worries.

Thought I saw that exact same wording somewhere in this thread in the last 72 hours, and in the last 3 posts. :)

Did everyone miss the last page of the last issue?

Thought I saw that exact same wording somewhere in this thread in the last 72 hours, and in the last 3 posts. :)

Probably. The message board is rarely a place for efficiency or brevity. And as I always say, never beat a dead horse, except for the sheer pleasure of it.

simple question.

Will pros be playing all three courses?

It's somewhat vague on if we play all three courses or not.

from the website:

All rounds will be played on these courses:

Steady Ed Headrick Memorial

WR Jackson Memorial

Jim Warner Memorial

simple question.

Will pros be playing all three courses?

It's somewhat vague on if we play all three courses or not.

from the website:

All rounds will be played on these courses:

Steady Ed Headrick Memorial

WR Jackson Memorial

Jim Warner Memorial

Course schedule will be determined by the number of players registered within the divisions. Course schedule by divisions will be released on Monday 9/19

Lol Matt read just above what you quoted.....From what i have heard from Andrew he wants everyone to play all three courses, so I'm guessing open will play Jackson twice plus the other two. THIS IS ONLY A GUESS AND NOT SET IN STONE!

OK, while I assume all courses would be used, that phrase "All rounds will be played on these courses:" doesn't state that all divisions will play all three courses. A better rephrasing would be... "All divisions will play each of the IDGC courses at least once."

Then I wouldn't have a question!

Looking forward to it. I've only got one round on the Warner course... as we have not had to play it in a big tournament yet. It's a cool course, and will be nice to see top players playing it.

OK, since I can't find any reference to it anywhere...

What is the PRO added cash for this Major? Ams are getting a sweet players pack for half the price.

Also, what is the planned payout depth, 33%, 35%, 40%?

Regarding the title of "champion" for winning this event, it's clear that the winner of men's open will win the national title this year. What about the advanced and pro women? Are there no titles up for grabs, since USWDGC was not HCed like the USDGC is this year?

There are four divisions....thus, there will be four divisional winners.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/61929

Anyone know if there is going to be a live internet feed? If so, can you post a link?

Looks like there's live scoring going on right now. Go to the PDGA home page and then click on the red button for live scoring of the Doss / Schusterick / McCoy / G.Smith card. They are playing the 9319' pro par 69 W.R. Jackson course (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGA_Championships_Jackson_Course_Map.pdf) right now...can't say I've ever seen a course start out with six pro par four holes in a row! :eek:

Live Scoring link
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/live.php?TournID=11020&Div=MPO

There are four divisions....thus, there will be four divisional winners.

Yeah, but who gets the title of women's national champion? The winner of U.S. Women's or the winner of the PDGA Championship? If it is the winner of U.S. Women's, then what title does the winner of the women's division in the PDGA Championships get? PDGA Women's Champion?

The winner gets a gold ring and a hot date with Mr. Frodo.

Yeah, but who gets the title of women's national champion? The winner of U.S. Women's or the winner of the PDGA Championship? If it is the winner of U.S. Women's, then what title does the winner of the women's division in the PDGA Championships get? PDGA Women's Champion?
Bingo. The winners of this tournament are crowned the PDGA Champion for the year. Because of the absence of the traditional USDGC this year, the Men's Pro PDGA Champion will also be crowned the national champion. Since the national titles for all the other divisions were contested already, there's no national titles to award for them this weekend.

So by extension, I guess that Will Schusterick was the defending PDGA champ coming into this year's event? Why are we trying to claim something that isn't so? Why can't the PDGA Championship be enough on its own merits without trying to claim the championship of another event as well?

Sorry folks, you can call it that if you want, but it doesn't make it so. The United States Disc Golf Championship will not be held until for a couple of weeks. Until that event is called something different, the champion of that event is the United States Champion, different format or not.

Chap

P.S. And before we get into the "well, USDGC in its original format is not held every year", well, I'd argue that the Summer Olympics are only held 4 years, yet we don't crown Olympic champions in the intermitting years.

AM Payouts...
Really? over $6000 in entry fees and only $2011 in payout??? Must have been one heck of a players pack with total AM payout averaging less than 33% of the total entry fees.

How come the PDGA can't throw a tournament for the AM's like the numbers below?

Total Am/Jr Net Entry Fees $2,015
Am/Jr Prizes + Trophies - $ Value $2,465
Am/Jr Player Packs - $ Value $2,135
Other Am/Jr Prizes $ (CTPs etc) $500
Am Event Value $5,100

Total percentage is over 250% however if you take away the Players Packs, that is still over 100% in payout percentage... This is from the TD report for an Event in April of 2011. This event provides similar results every year... oh and to top it off.. over $4000 was added to the pro payout in this event as well......

It's time the Amateur golfers stand up and do something about this!!!

http://waydowndisc.com/SDJFlyer.jpg

Hey Rhyno, it's all about bang for the buck, wink, wink, nudge, nudge:

How's this:

$30 entry fee for all divisions

Value:
2 nights of primitive camping ($25 per night)

2 nights of live music ($15 per night)

$500 in CTP prizes

$500 in tournament prizes

Assuming 50 players:

$1,500 In

$5,000 Out

Hey Denny,

That's why member retention at the PDGA is so poor! Because that's exactly it... it's all about the bang for the buck!!!

When is the PDGA going to realize that they are the only ones standing in the way of taking this sport to the next level???

There's bang for the buck and then there's perceived bang for the buck. In the case of the Jacksonville Open, it's obvious that y'all deliver exceptional value for players' entry fees. A lot of TD's around the country could benefit from attempting to emulate y'all.

As for the PDGA, I think they do provide a great value for my membership fees, imo. I do think, however, that they fall a bit short in driving the public perception of that value. They will continue to have a difficult time with this issue until their electronic communication problems have been dealt with. (I do know that they realize this and are working diligently to address the situation.)

As to the PDGA championship, I am confident that the organization will quickly learn from the mistakes that were made with the roll-out of this event and it will be one of the great things that the organization does for the sport in future years.

There's bang for the buck and then there's perceived bang for the buck. In the case of the Jacksonville Open, it's obvious that y'all deliver exceptional value for players' entry fees. A lot of TD's around the country could benefit from attempting to emulate y'all.

As for the PDGA, I think they do provide a great value for my membership fees, imo. I do think, however, that they fall a bit short in driving the public perception of that value. They will continue to have a difficult time with this issue until their electronic communication problems have been dealt with. (I do know that they realize this and are working diligently to address the situation.)

As to the PDGA championship, I am confident that the organization will quickly learn from the mistakes that were made with the roll-out of this event and it will be one of the great things that the organization does for the sport in future years.

WOW... you are totally delusional when it comes to the PDGA learning anything about running tournaments... this isn't a new problem... and it won't be fixed until the AMS step up and do something about it!!!

They are taking money from the AMS hand over fist..as soon as an AM figures it out... he or she doesn't turn pro... they just don't renew... When I joined the PDGA in 2006, I was number 28773 and there were a little over 9k active members... the membership has almost doubles since then with over 50,000 members with only over 10,000 active members... wow.. 21,000+ new members with only a little over 1000 additional since 2006...there is a serious flaw in the system... since a majority of PDGA members are AMs... seems as though this is where the problem lies!!!

So... with that being said... you are a good man but filled with delusions of grandeur.

You were at this tournament and can provide insight on whether the participants received a good value for their entry fees?

If not, I'd rather hear from people who were there as opposed to someone making judgement with a slide rule. Not just from the top finisher or two that might feel their take was less than they had hoped, but from a few of the people who finished in the back half of the field. Perhaps they can tell us more credibly whether they received a sufficient 'bang for their buck'.

From Scott Vaughan on DGCR website - in heavily traffic'd PDGA Championship thread:

"The tripod was a nice camptime with pdga championship and huklab logo and one more on it I think. The polos also seem really nice ($30 at the store probably). I wasn't trying to start anything or complain. I'm sure the PDGA can justify the payout completely. I would still have liked to see a basket or something awesome for first place."

He had mentioned earlier in the thread that [ALL players got the stool and shirt, but no disc (as promised) - his words]

I'd say retail value at the PDGA proshop is $60-$70 combined for the 2 items - he mentioned later food was included on SAT - $10 value.

You were at this tournament and can provide insight on whether the participants received a good value for their entry fees?

If not, I'd rather hear from people who were there as opposed to someone making judgement with a slide rule. Not just from the top finisher or two that might feel their take was less than they had hoped, but from a few of the people who finished in the back half of the field. Perhaps they can tell us more credibly whether they received a sufficient 'bang for their buck'.

All I did was compare apples to apples... and that was payout to entry fee... on the info I provided for the Jacksonville open, more than 100% of the entry fee went to retail payout. I also provided info players packs added to that as well which put the entire tournament over 250%... as for the PDGA Championships.. payout was less than 33% of entry fee and total for the tournament including estimated value of players pack put the value a little over 100%.. now we both know we are talking retail value... with that being said the PDGA could do a better job than the minimum they require. My point is the PDGA should be the ones setting the example not some small B Tier event in Jacksonville Florida.

I guess the PDGA is setting an example.. a very good example of how to exploit the dollars of the AMS so they can pad the PRO purse!!!

From Scott Vaughan on DGCR website - in heavily traffic'd PDGA Championship thread:

"The tripod was a nice camptime with pdga championship and huklab logo and one more on it I think. The polos also seem really nice ($30 at the store probably). I wasn't trying to start anything or complain. I'm sure the PDGA can justify the payout completely. I would still have liked to see a basket or something awesome for first place."

He had mentioned earlier in the thread that [ALL players got the stool and shirt, but no disc (as promised) - his words]

I'd say retail value at the PDGA proshop is $60-$70 combined for the 2 items - he mentioned later food was included on SAT - $10 value.

Sounds like the typical PDGA tournament... let's distract them with a flashy players pack and maybe they won't notice the payout is only 33% of the entry fee... not to mention that is retail...so in all reality between the donations and or discounts on the players pack items plus the wholesale cost of the am payout, I'm sure over half of the AM entry fee went back into the PRO payout.

The AM PDGA members deserved to be treated better!!! They are the ones paying the bills for the PDGA. over 70% of the members are AMS... over 60% of every tournament fee collected are from AM's. hmmmmm... It's time we do something about this!!!! it's time for a new organization for AM's only!!!

The PDGA needs to step up, create and enforce standards on all tournaments and start treating those who pay the bills the way the deserve or the PDGA as we know it will cease to exist....

I can't find in any of these figures, the tournament itself.

Did the Ams actually get to play in the tournament?

What is the value of that?

I'm a lifelong Am, and remain perplexed at the notion that Ams as a group should always get their entire entry fee back for attending---essentially that they should always play tournaments for free. Even more perplexed by the notion that they are also entitled to any wholesale discounts and donations that someone else has done the work to obtain.

has the pdga ever been part of a tourney that over blessed the ams.
there are T Ds that have it figured out, but i guess the pdga is just that.

I can't find in any of these figures, the tournament itself.

Did the Ams actually get to play in the tournament?

What is the value of that?

I'm a lifelong Am, and remain perplexed at the notion that Ams as a group should always get their entire entry fee back for attending---essentially that they should always play tournaments for free. Even more perplexed by the notion that they are also entitled to any wholesale discounts and donations that someone else has done the work to obtain.

You can find the info here: http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/61929

In any other sport, Ams almost always play for trophies at least... if that was the precedence that was set then I would be more inclined to agree with you. However since that isn't the case, then the AM money should stay in the AM pool so to speak... I'm ok with a portion of their dollars going elsewhere... but if there is cash sponsorship then that money belongs to the PROs. With that being said... even if you give back 100% of retail back in payout...and still give a decent players pack ( most of it is either discounted or donated ) then that is great for the AMs. I'm not saying 100% of their money should stay... but don't take more than 50% out of their entry and give it to the PRO field... especially since there wouldn't be a PDGA without the AMs... ok... let me rephrase that... The PDGA would not have over $399,000 in paid salaries if it weren't for the AM members and those playing events.

If you would like to know more about the PDGA finances... please check out: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/10-11_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf


Now don't take this the wrong way... I am all for what the PDGA has done over the past 6 years since I have been associated with this sport. I'm not sure where the sport would be without the organization. All I'm saying is give back to those who did more than their part providing the necessary dollars to do these things. It's time to give back to the AMs.

Don't know what "over blessed" means.

I was able to attend one AmWorlds, in which the players pack was worth more than the entry fee. I was ahead of the game, before the first tee. Then I got to play in a week of disc golf on some fine courses, with players from all over the country, and someone else doing all the work to make it possible. I didn't win anything, but still felt pretty blessed by the experience.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding here. It's normal for the combination of players pack and prizes, at retail prices, to be about 100% of the entry fees.

Is the complaint that this wasn't done at the PDGA championships?

Or that this standard is unfair to Ams?

If the former, it looks like the bulk of payout was in the players packs, not the prizes. Hardly a rip-off. At least from my perspective (and I HATE players packs).

If the latter, it's hard for me to understand. If the Ams got all their money back, and got to play in a tournament too, what's the beef?

Or is the complaint that the Ams should also be entitled to whatever wholesale/retail margin is generated by the TD (PDGA, in this case) handling the merchandise?

You can find the info here: http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/61929

In any other sport, Ams almost always play for trophies at least... if that was the precedence that was set then I would be more inclined to agree with you. However since that isn't the case, then the AM money should stay in the AM pool so to speak... I'm ok with a portion of their dollars going elsewhere... but if there is cash sponsorship then that money belongs to the PROs. With that being said... even if you give back 100% of retail back in payout...and still give a decent players pack ( most of it is either discounted or donated ) then that is great for the AMs. I'm not saying 100% of their money should stay... but don't take more than 50% out of their entry and give it to the PRO field... especially since there wouldn't be a PDGA without the AMs... ok... let me rephrase that... The PDGA would not have over $399,000 in paid salaries if it weren't for the AM members and those playing events.

If you would like to know more about the PDGA finances... please check out: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/10-11_PDGA_Financial_Summary_Public.pdf


Now don't take this the wrong way... I am all for what the PDGA has done over the past 6 years since I have been associated with this sport. I'm not sure where the sport would be without the organization. All I'm saying is give back to those who did more than their part providing the necessary dollars to do these things. It's time to give back to the AMs.

Does this mean you support giving to those of us who have put in untold $$$ and sweat equity to make the pDGA what it is today? Not all pro players are greedy for AM money, some of us actually want to design, install, and maintain courses for AMs to be able to enjoy for tournaments and fun rounds.

It's past time to give back to those who have given, and given, and given...

All I did was compare apples to apples... and that was payout to entry fee... on the info I provided for the Jacksonville open, more than 100% of the entry fee went to retail payout. I also provided info players packs added to that as well which put the entire tournament over 250%... as for the PDGA Championships.. payout was less than 33% of entry fee and total for the tournament including estimated value of players pack put the value a little over 100%.. now we both know we are talking retail value... with that being said the PDGA could do a better job than the minimum they require. My point is the PDGA should be the ones setting the example not some small B Tier event in Jacksonville Florida.

I guess the PDGA is setting an example.. a very good example of how to exploit the dollars of the AMS so they can pad the PRO purse!!!

You make a lot of assumptions for someone who wasn't involved. You have no idea of the overhead costs and so on to hold the event, nor other associated benefits and their costs that may have been provided. Perhaps getting in the orchard a bit would help before attempting to compare apples.

Exploit the AM dollars? Please. Perhaps the example that needs to be set is one where people putting in the effort to throw these events get compensated for their efforts out of the fees as opposed to throwing more at the top 33% of the players. Perhaps this example would better promote the sport and encourage bigger and better tournaments as opposed to more swag to a minority percentage of all involved.

In any other sport, Ams almost always play for trophies at least... if that was the precedence that was set then I would be more inclined to agree with you. However since that isn't the case, then the AM money should stay in the AM pool so to speak... I'm ok with a portion of their dollars going elsewhere�


This is a great thread as it underpins one of the biggest issues in our sport. AMs are the lifeblood of this organization whether they desire to be a Professional someday or are satisfied with playing organized Amateur events forever.

After taking the hard core line of AM's deserve everything and more when entering an event, Rhyno states that in most other sports, AM's play for trophies. BINGO! Yes, in the early days of the sport the precedence of large AM prize pools were set because sponsorship was near zero and over generous volunteer TD's didn't take in money to actually run the event or they used that money to be proportioned elsewhere. It doesn't matter where the money goes as long you felt like you got just return in a well organized, fun event on a quality disc golf course. Until our tournament structure emulates the true definition of Amateur athletics we are farting against thunder. The Amateur definition I just read was "one who carries on the art of sport for the love of it, not money" Therefore, for true harmony, disc golf needs to embrace all of the other Amateur Athletic endeavors out there where participants pay an entry fee for the "experience" like D Sauls says. If your entry fee meets a satisfactory tournament experience, everyone wins. Now, I absolutely agree that the AM experience should feature many additions not available to the Professional side which may include nice players packages, side games, clinics, killer trophies and what have you. We should be concentrating on a formula for entry fee distribution that actually pays for tournament directors time and allows for expenditures on advertising, rental fees, porta potties and staff parties. All of this adding to the quality of the Amateur experience.

That is why in road racing or most other smaller organized sports for example the AM entry fee includes a small player package, a safe organized race course, food and beverage afterwards and medals for the winners. I have never heard of racers complaining when the Professional runner from Kenya wins cash and a car for their victory. Does the AM road racer entry go to that $10,000 first prize and the car that is won? Or does that entry fee go to the other amenities, racing organizers and rental fees? That is really none of your business because ultimately you are paying for "THE EXPERIENCE" that is the road race or the disc golf tournament. Have a good experience and come back next year. Have a bad experience and don't support that event model.

The point is until Amateurs start playing organized events for the experience and not for the expectation of intrinsic return, our sport will lie in the cross roads of trying to be a true sport verses a petty gambling institution.

And believe me, I am not saying the Professionals in this sport are holier than thou. There are many issues there as well. A lot of the Professional issues have to do with that same precedence that Rhyno talked about. Our organization started with the cart before the horse. We are at the point of fully realizing this and hopefully making some fundamental changes that satisfy creating a true Amateur structure that grows the sport while recognizing the skills and traits that it takes to be a true Professional. All of this while realizing it is actually the TD's and Clubs that are the real heroes of this sport and deserve the most support of anyone.

I really don't think two organizations are required for this. Ams and Pros should benefit each other and being together at events creates the platform to achieve that harmony. I just think we first must go back to square one and realize the true definitions of both Amateur and Professional.

And believe me, I am not saying the Professionals in this sport are holier than thou. There are many issues there as well. A lot of the Professional issues have to do with that same precedence that Rhyno talked about. Our organization started with the cart before the horse. We are at the point of fully realizing this and hopefully making some fundamental changes that satisfy creating a true Amateur structure that grows the sport while recognizing the skills and traits that it takes to be a true Professional. All of this while realizing it is actually the TD's and Clubs that are the real heroes of this sport and deserve the most support of anyone.

I really don't think two organizations are required for this. Ams and Pros should benefit each other and being together at events creates the platform to achieve that harmony. I just think we first must go back to square one and realize the true definitions of both Amateur and Professional.

Yeti, I couldn't agree with you more! I really think a good part of the problem is that AM entry fees are getting out of hand. Which goes back to developing and enforcing tournament standards.

You mention two organizations is not the answer... I think it might be the answer... I know there are pros and cons with a split but wouldn't a Professional only organization be more prestigious and entice AMs to move up? If the two organizations worked together then it could very well work.

Thank you for all you do Yeti! You a truly the type of pro I aspire to be.

I am an AM woman, and with a fulltime job, a part time job, a home, grandchildren, college, presiding over my local disc golf club - rarely do I get to time to play this great sport. However, I have taken the time to read and reread many of the posts, opinions, hostilities, etc that are posted here.

I think Rhyno makes some great points, I also beieive that Yeti also makes some great points. Both of these men - I have an incredible respect for.

Yet, some of the other posts are lost in the hostilities and defensive that is posted.

I would like to see a group of representatives (not the state reps) made up of a solid mix of Ams and Pros, male and female, new players and long time players. I envision their responsibility to review the pulse of what the disc golfers are feeling. See what changes are feasible and which are not, what are issues and what are not. If this already exists - I dont know who they are but I would love to talk to them.

I ask for forgiveness in advance for the next line: In the other golf sport - the Pros has their own organization, the AMs have their own - there is a division between the two but it does not divide the sport. They unite the two with PRO/AM tournaments (something the PDGA does not truly support).

With that being said - I think the PROs deserve a certain something, I believe they earn it, but I also believe there should be a level of PRO, the elite (you know who you are) and then the local PRO. I also believe that the AMs should have something of their own.
I cant pretend to have all the answers, but I do know that through productive conversations - we all win.

To Yeti's point - yes we should be playing for the experience, especially since very few will get rich playing this sport, but when the registration fee for an AM is not much lower than the PRO level, there is a certain message sent to the AMs when their payout is considerably less. Please dont make me spell this out - I really dont have the energy for that.

I dont agree with one of the comments (seemingly sarcastic) made by someone here about everyone should get paid and the AMs should pay for free - thats not what is being suggested, its not about even distribution to all AMs, its about respecting the fact that the AMs are the life blood of this organization and for that, they should be treated some what equitably.

I do think it is a shame that if an AM speaks out about it - they are almost reprimanded for speaking out (impression based on what I read here).

I agree with Yeti that there should be a formula, a standard of such that would be the minimum for any and all tournaments sanctioned as a PDGA event - not just a suggested payout.

What really bums me out now is that time that I have taken to post here - I could have been in the back yard putting.

Tina Hicks
Executive Director
River City Disc Golf Association
(Wife of Rhyno)

Jay,

You stated:
"I just think we first must go back to square one and realize the true definitions of both Amateur and Professional."

While I believe I get the theory / concept you're espousing, understand that "definitions" are like opinions - everyone has (a different) one!

At the present time, our Ams are hardly Ams and our Pros are NOT Pros.

AMs
If Am are to get "...a trophy and a handshake only", cool. I've seen Ams "take home" several hundred dollars of "stuff"...hardly amateurish.

Pros
Pros, technically, have to "make their living" doing it...and that ain't happen'in too often. Houck is a Pro. Dunipace is a Pro. So is Southwick, McCormick, and a couple of handfulls of others. There MAY be a half-dozen or so "Tourning Pros" but they're living in poverty (..and are maybe happy doing that!). The rest are just weekend gamblers. The VAST majority of "Pros" better not quit their day jobs (their spouces won't be happy...).

One can't walk on just the side of the knife's edge one wants (they have to straddle it)!


I say just scrap the entire "Pro / Am" thing. As long as THIS exists, any slight change will get pulled right back to this tenet (and thus no REAL change will ever occur...and we'll be stuck with what we have).

No, I don't have a solution (sorry) right now.
But thinking never hurts!!

Karl

Jay,

You stated:
"I just think we first must go back to square one and realize the true definitions of both Amateur and Professional."

While I believe I get the theory / concept you're espousing, understand that "definitions" are like opinions - everyone has (a different) one!

At the present time, our Ams are hardly Ams and our Pros are NOT Pros.

AMs
If Am are to get "...a trophy and a handshake only", cool. I've seen Ams "take home" several hundred dollars of "stuff"...hardly amateurish.

Pros
Pros, technically, have to "make their living" doing it...and that ain't happen'in too often. Houck is a Pro. Dunipace is a Pro. So is Southwick, McCormick, and a couple of handfulls of others. There MAY be a half-dozen or so "Tourning Pros" but they're living in poverty (..and are maybe happy doing that!). The rest are just weekend gamblers. The VAST majority of "Pros" better not quit their day jobs (their spouces won't be happy...).

One can't walk on just the side of the knife's edge one wants (they have to straddle it)!


I say just scrap the entire "Pro / Am" thing. As long as THIS exists, any slight change will get pulled right back to this tenet (and thus no REAL change will ever occur...and we'll be stuck with what we have).

No, I don't have a solution (sorry) right now.
But thinking never hurts!!

Karl

Great Points Karl! So with that being said... maybe we should go to Trophy only Tournaments for AMS. This might increase the numbers in the PRO events as well because there are a lot of AMs only playing AM to win plastic and make money selling it.

This is all a work in progress... something needs to happen in order to take our sport to the level where Pro's can make a living at Disc Golf!!!

... something needs to happen in order to take our sport to the level where Pro's can make a living at Disc Golf!!!

Only if there's a compelling reason why anyone should be able to make a living playing disc golf.

Don't get me wrong. I'd find it rather cool if it happened. But there are other directions disc golf can grow, too.

Maybe we SHOULD go to "AMs = trophy only" (a separate topic IMO)...
...but I'm NOT an advocate of increasing the gamblers pool!

Why do we always have to try to increase the money thing? (read: MORE PROS!)
Does it always have to be about money?

Like I said before - get rid of the Pro / Am thing. In reality it's just a splitting of players into a rather arbitrary "those who play for each other's cash and those who play for something that will (eventually) end up as playing for almost each other's cash". Pretty stupid if you ask me. We ALL can see the hypocracy behind it...but logic (and change) is fleeting....

Karl
Ps: Remember, one can always have "side bets" if one MUST gamble :((

My perspective, having spent some time in the trenches:

Am payout funds tournaments. That is the truth. The wholesale/retail markup is what pays for park fees and lunches and trophies and what not. Get rid of am payout and you leave a hole in the tourney finances. Whether you love am payout or hate it, this is truth.

Ams are happy when they get good perceived value for their entry fee. If you charge them $90 and give them a C-tier cotton t-shirt and small payout while driving the Open payout to $1000+ for first, they will complain. Give them about 125% of entry fee value with a tech shirt and a couple of discs player pack plus good payout and they are happy. There is a nice balance where you can fund your tourney with happy ams, but you can't keep them happy by funding A-tier style pro payouts off only their backs without any other sponsorship. $35-$45 entry fee with a tourney stamped disc, lunch, and okay payout also is good perceived value.

We have too many overlapping divisions comparable skill, and the bulk isn't Advanced versus Open! IMHO, we're too small to have more than two cash paying divisions, and those should be MPO/FPO. The vast majority of the 970+ rated players that aren't playing Open are: Pro Master and Pro Grand, not Advanced Am. Offer only MPO/FPO as cash paying divisions and you increase the size of your Open field with Open caliber players.

We also need to lower the Open entry fee. Just look at the field sizes: people don't seem that interested in paying top dollar to get their arses kicked week in and week out.

Ideas for anyone who has that "Entitlement to Payout" feeling...

Run your own event. Stop complaining about how others do it. Do it yourself.

Solicit sponsors for your event. Nothing prohibits you from raising sponsorship dollars to add to the payout of amateur divisions. One could organize a sanctioned event (c-tier) and add zero to the pro purse, but add $5,000 to the amateur payout. And if you want to buy the merch at wholesale and pay it out at wholesale, have at it. It's your event.

If you include a player package for amateurs in your event... you might want to advertise the value of said player package in your fliers or web site. At the very least, mention the value amount during the players meeting and that a portion of the entry fee was used to provide the packages (if that's how you structure your event). Many competitors will gladly accept their player package when they sign up on Friday night or Saturday morning, but they often forget about the package "value" when the tournament is over and the scores are tallied. That's when the complaints over payout often ensue.

Trophy only. Problem solved (if event is advertised properly).