I don't know if I am going to make many people angry or not, but I would like to see PDGA events go non-smoking. In Illinois it is now illegal to smoke in a public building or within 15 feet of the entrance to a public building.

The only time during my week that I run into smokers is when I play a PDGA sanctioned event. I rarely play casual rounds with smokers, and none of my close friends smoke.

It is strange that I can go into a bar or a bowling alley and get away from cigarette smoke, but I have to deal with it at a PDGA event.

I know the rules regarding smoking, but if I do ask people not to smoke I'm sometimes seen as the bad guy. This isn't true in all cases, this past weekend at the GMO Joe Luebeck was very polite and asked the group if anyone minded if he smoked. But I have attended events where the four other guys on the card smoked (all at different times), so I end up spending 3.5 hours having to deal with smoke.

I would like to hear the pros and cons on this matter, and I would like to know how other people who don't smoke deal with smokers.

I think squirt guns are the best approach. j/k.

I usually ask them to stay downwind. Most oblige, but there is nothing worse than taking a deep breath to focus on your putt only to be sucking in someone else's stench.

Now if I can just get my neighbor to realize that his cigar choice is foul...

I don't know if I am going to make many people angry or not,...



I can almost guarantee someone will get angry on this thread.
It's a touchy subject for some.

As a smoker, I try to be as polite about it as possible and always stay upwind, but in some cases in a tournament I can see how it would be impossible to stay upwind from everyone....

You raise an interesting point, but one I'm afraid will also raise animosity in some.

I'm personally somewhat ambivalent about it, as I no longer smoke necessarily by choice but rather addiction and as such, recognize its inherent evil, but at the same time have a sort of twisted vested interest.

At any rate, good luck with that....

see the no smoking in BG courses thread

And that might also be a way to accomplish your objective: lobby your local park districts to ban smoking in the parks. If smoking is banned in the parks, its banned during PDGA rounds.

If you want to lobby the PDGA, you should start with Juliana. She's on the Board now. She's a vote for banning smoking during PDGA rounds.

She's a vote for banning smoking during PDGA rounds.



Really??

It is not even banned on the PGA Tour..

were are outside...again

will you ban me from smoking in an apartment or a home I rent next because I don't own it?

Will I be able to smoke in my backyard...??? if I am putting that is as close as my neighbors fence unless they are crowding me :)

If the PDGA went nonsmoking, I'd have to not renew. Ever. I smoke more while playing golf than I do any other time. I'm not even a really heavy smoker (1/2 to 3/4 pack per day). But I have smoked that during one tournament round when things weren't going well. No smoking while playing. I couldn't do it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not an impolite smoker. I NEVER throw my butts on the ground. I try to make sure that my secondhand smoke doesn't bother anyone and if someone asks me to kep it away from them, I will do my very best. But if the PDGA makes a rule saying I CAN'T smoke, they won't ever see another dollar from me in membership renewals or tournament entries. It's not that I'm trying to be reactionary and cause a big fuss. I just wouldn't break the rules. It's just that playing a tourney where I couldn't smoke at all would make me tense and that's no fun. I'm not a pro, probably never will be with my game, so disc golf and disc golf tournies are about fun instead of profit for me.

And Tom, don't worry, I'm not angry that you brought this up. This isn't an angry response but just my opinion which is no better or worse than anyone else's.

Smoking should be a non issue. The rules provide for it. Courtesy. Enough said. Although lots of smokers are rude.


Eleven years as a smoker and six years as a quitter.

I don't smoke anymore, though I did for twenty years at between 1 and 2 packs a day. Other players smoking doesn't really bother me unless we get into a tight area with no breeze.

I do find the aroma mildly offensive, but nothing serious enough to interrupt my concentration.

I would not support a ban on smoking during events, though I would prefer to play without having to smell it. I don't believe that second hand smoke in an outdoor environment from a handful of smokers represents a serious health risk. The only bans I would support would have to be a direct result of extreme litter or fire hazard conditions.

Just increasing my comfort at the expense of theirs is not a good enough reason for me. Besides, the whining I would bother me more than the smoke would. :)

Yeah I especially love the LACK of courtesy that a lot of smokers show during the players' meeting by lighting up. Can't these losers go fifteen minutes without inhaling smoke and ruining the air for all the other people there? It's bad enough that smoking is allowed during rounds, but c'mon, ban it during the freakin' players' meeting TD's!!

In light of the PDGA's relatively unsuccessful efforts to ban smoking and consumption of substances that are criminal offenses and detrimental to our public image, a rule banning a legal substance is likely to be one more disregarded and unenforced rule.

You'd hope everyone would be more considerate and civil in their behaviour, such as staying downwind or keeping a distance if they must smoke, and certainly holding off for the player's meeting. But if they're not, will a rule make a difference to them?

A lot of it comes down to the TD. If the TD during the player meeting calls players out to extinguish whatever they are smoking, makes it clear that any smoking at all is grounds for DQ, and follows it up with enforcement then you will see change. If the TD is a devout libertarian, nothing will change. Hopefully the TDs at De LaVeaga are not libertarians.

From http://www.delaveagadiscgolf.com/content/view/165/1/ (posting date unknown)

As many of you are aware, Wednesday there was a fire
on the right side of hole 24's fairway. Fortunately
the fire was spotted before it got out of control. The
fire department responded quickly and they took care
of it. I think that disaster was narrowly avoided.

I happened to be at the course and saw it first hand,
and let me tell you, seeing a large amount of smoke
billowing up at DeLaveaga is a scary sight. It would
not have taken much for the entire place to go up in
flames.

I have never been a smoker. I applaud those smokers who ask if smoking would bother anyone in their group. I abhor those smokers who toss their butts on the ground.

I would not support a smoking ban. Courtesy should be encouraged, not legislated.

I remember a tournament at Sandy Point awhile back when extreme dry conditions resulted in Mike having to issue a smoking ban. Even then people still smoked, and at least one small smoldering fire was put out before it really caught.

I think a smoking ban would put too heavy a burden on the TDs at this time. If the local laws would call for it (no smoking in public parks), then they might have a chance. But asking a TD to enforce a rule that isn't backed by some ordinance or law would put them in a tough spot.

On the other hand, perhaps a different approach would be to encourage a TD to offer non-smoking tournaments. If they became popular enough, perhaps more TDs would run them. Let the market forces work as opposed to issuing an edict from above, and it may have a chance.

Glad to see there's mainly calm, reasonable responses so far.

From the rule book:

801.01 Courtesy

E. Littering is a courtesy violation.

F. Courtesy dictates that players who smoke should not allow their smoke to disturb other players. Smokers should extinguish their cigarettes and carry their cigarette butts to a trash can. Disposing of cigarette butts by dropping them on the ground is littering.


My personal opinion is that littering should be a DQable offense, but that's just me.

For the record, you should try to stay DOWNWIND of the other players. :)

Interesting article (http://www.newsweek.com/id/138120): "Most smokers want to quit, and if it were easy they'd want to do it. It's very hard to quit because, to some extent, their brains have been changed because of decisions they made as young people. They've become nicotine addicts. They're already laboring under this habit that is injurious to their health, which most of them know, and yet they can't quit. They already feel bad, and if you heap scorn on that, they're going to feel worse. That's the twin sides of this issue."

For the record, you should try to stay DOWNWIND of the other players. :)



Uh, yeah, that's what I meant to write :o

Thanks,

- JPB

At what point will farting be illegal? :confused: ;)

Interesting article (http://www.newsweek.com/id/138120): "...They already feel bad, and if you heap scorn on that, they're going to feel worse...."



So clearly more divisions are needed. Each current division should have a "smokers" option i.e. MPO & SMPO, MA1 & SMA1, MG1 & SMG1, etc.

This way, non-smokers can breath clean air and smokers can win more and thus feel better about themselves.

Interesting article (http://www.newsweek.com/id/138120): "...They already feel bad, and if you heap scorn on that, they're going to feel worse...."



So clearly more divisions are needed. Each current division should have a "smokers" option i.e. MPO & SMPO, MA1 & SMA1, MG1 & SMG1, etc.

This way, non-smokers can breath clean air and smokers can win more and thus feel better about themselves.



payout would be in cigarettes for the "S" divisions...

an offensive smell is not enough to require legislation or ban. If the player does not make an effort to keep the smoke downwind or at least a respectable distance away, then consider it a courtesy violation... but as the non-smoker you should also make an effort to be comfortable and not expect the smoker to bend over backwards to accommodate your smell preferences.

it's about respect. you show respect for the smoker's right to smoke and he should return the favor. If *either* side can't handle being respectful... it should be considered a courtesy violation and handled accordingly.

This thread has me paying attention to some of the stuff I am seeing that would ordinarily ignore (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,547198,00.htm):<blockquote>"A risk of the marginalization of smoking is that it further isolates the group of people with the highest rates of smoking�persons with mental illness, problems with substance abuse or both," he wrote. "These people are already stigmatized by their underlying psychiatric condition. Adding the further burden of the stigma associated with smoking makes it even harder for them to achieve the wellness that they and their families seek."</blockquote>

an offensive smell is not enough to require legislation or ban. If the player does not make an effort to keep the smoke downwind or at least a respectable distance away, then consider it a courtesy violation... but as the non-smoker you should also make an effort to be comfortable and not expect the smoker to bend over backwards to accommodate your smell preferences.

it's about respect. you show respect for the smoker's right to smoke and he should return the favor. If *either* side can't handle being respectful... it should be considered a courtesy violation and handled accordingly.



Josh, Bravo...

For the rest of you , CAN YOU SERIOUSLY FIND SOMETHING BETTER TO WHINE ABOUT ????

What a hyper-sensative society we have become. I am going to go burn a square and laugh about this thread.....


THREAD PROPOSAL : SHOULD PLAYERS THAT WEAR OLD SPICE BE BANNED FROM SANCTIONED PLAY... I DONT LIKE THE SMELL OF OLD SPICE, SO IT SHOULD BE BANNED ....

Thoughts ? :D

I would much rather smell cig smoke than the funk of an unbathed golfer in my group.

Yeah I especially love the LACK of courtesy that a lot of smokers show during the players' meeting by lighting up. Can't these losers go fifteen minutes without inhaling smoke and ruining the air for all the other people there? It's bad enough that smoking is allowed during rounds, but c'mon, ban it during the freakin' players' meeting TD's!!


Yes, I am guilty of this just like most of the rest of us. BUT, that doesn't mean that I don't try to be courteous to other players. I'll keep this thread in mind when I want to light up at the next meeting.
If my dad (who is 62) can grow up with his dad who smoked a box of El Producto a day and his mom who smoked 2 packs of cigs a day and be healthy as a horse then I very much doubt that a little smoke in the open air, that's blown away in a couple of seconds poses a serious risk to your health.
Point of fact, I endure way more risk to my health from you and your car than you ever risk from a little smoke. C'mon, I dare ya, tell me you never ever sped, didn't use your turn signal, didn't (even accidently) cut somebody off, or any of the other zillion ways to injure or kill people in a car. You can't because your human, and as a human you will make mistakes. Period. No exceptions.
AND, don't tell me you "have" to drive. Everything in life is a choice. I choose to smoke and OMB whiners like you choose to stand right next to me at the meeting. Next time man-up and tell them to not smoke in your face OR, better yet, move to a different spot. Problem solved for both of us.

Cigar or pipe smoking really bugs me, you can often smell it all over the course talk about mega pollution. The majority of discers smoke cigarettes and that is fine as long as they are considerate.

I would much rather smell cig smoke than the funk of an unbathed golfer in my group.



...or freaking patchouli!!!!!!!!!!

Haven't smoked a cig in 8 years but all of this talk is making me crave a little puff off of one. What an addiction!

Smoking should not be banned in PDGA events unless the Parks Dept. or landowner ban it.

I myself ask others in my group first if t
heymind, and I stay downwind the entire time. I tote my butts in my bag and dispose of them properly.

Like everything else in this sport, players should be held accountable for thier conduct, if they break the rules then enforcement is required.

If players could keep good conduct, other players failing to enforce rules of any kind would become a mute point!

Smoking should not be banned in PDGA events unless the Parks Dept. or landowner ban it.





I'm a non smoker and I agree with this 100%.

95% of the smokers I play with are very courteous and the few times smoke has been blown in my face, it is by accident and the person apologizes.

I just played in a event where smoking was prohibited by the land owner. There were some areas designated for smoking. It was because of extreme fire danger that smoking was limited. Everyone in the groups I was with followed the rules. During the players meeting it was explained that anyone smoking out of the designated area would be disqualified.

FYI, smoking will not be permitted during tournament rounds at the 2011 PDGA Pro and Am World Championships:

From the PDGA Board of Directors January Teleconference Minutes: (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/2011-01-11BODMeetingMinutesApproved.pdf)

MOTION
(Korver/Jenkins)

Restrict smoking at the PDGA Pro and Am World Championships in 2011 in the same manner that

alcohol is currently restricted.
Yes: Andrews, Korver, Jenkins, Feldberg, Nesbitt
No: Decker




Motion passes 5-1.


It has been clarified by a BoD member that ALL smoking, cigarette or otherwise, is banned. This would apply to players' caddies as well.

I for one applaud the measure - I have been bothered with secondhand cigarette smoke just while doing live scoring of the lead card at PDGA Pro Worlds and National Tour events events, and I can only imagine how annoying it must be for non-smoking competitors in these events.

At worlds there is a 3 group back up on a hole right at the parking lot. A player goes and sits in his car and smokes a cigarette.

Please explain why you feel this player deserves the DQ the Competition Manual requires?

I don't recall seeing anything about this in my worlds invite package.
Kind of a big deal for players who smoke during rounds.
Kind of a deal breaker for some.

Jeff, you say you are in favor of some constructive criticism of the PDGA.
How about this.

If this indeed is the case they owe it to the members who smoke to communicate this ASAP before folks start making their plans to come. Or maybe they plan to announce this change at the players meeting?????

I think the no-smoking rule for the worlds was just posted above.

Not good enough.

How about the PDGA emailed update, how about the magazine (although i haven't yet looked at the new magazine)?
How about something a bit more formal than a discussion board post by a PDGA non-official?

I don't recall seeing anything about this in my worlds invite package.
Kind of a big deal for players who smoke during rounds.
Kind of a deal breaker for some.

Jeff, you say you are in favor of some constructive criticism of the PDGA.
How about this.

If this indeed is the case they owe it to the members who smoke to communicate this ASAP before folks start making their plans to come. Or maybe they plan to announce this change at the players meeting?????

Pete, I am in 100% agreement on this aspect - I cannot believe that despite being passed in January, here we are in April and no formal announcement was made. Worlds invites went out and registration opened over a month ago and according to the registration pages for Am Worlds (http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/16465) and Pro Worlds (http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/16466), a considerable number of people have already registered. I would hope that the number of folks who can't go more than 3 hours without a cigarette and now need to withdraw is minimal, but even if that ends up being just one person, he/she is likely one very unhappy camper right about now.

There is already a courtesy rule against this. Unless there is some local California park rule propping this ruling up, then it seems completely unnecessary and counterproductive.

Actually, reading the minutes is pretty confusing: the topic is about "K2/Medicinal marijuana." Then there is a motion that follows that Jeff copied. Is the motion about smoking K2/Medicinal marijuana, or about tabacco?

ps. I am thankfully ignorant on this subject. I only know K2 as a very big mountain.

TOTAL [email protected]#$!!!!!!! Smoking is legal! You are not inside of a building. you are in the great outdoors. There is no room to not allow someone to do something that is legal. This might affect my membership in years to come. Heck! you now have to pat $10.00 to take the rules test. How much money is that generating????? the PDGA is already making money off of the tournaments and now a extra 10 just to take a test! hmmmmmmmmm! Just for most of ya'll info. I am trying to quit smoking. very hard thing to do! Smoke now bothers me to no end. but i would never ask someone not to smoke out doors! once again [email protected]#$!

Jeff, More constructive criticism.

You took this from a medical marijuana discussion and misleadingly posted this in a thread about smoking tobacco? Are you serious???

Next time you decide to post an comment like this you should first have at least a small clue as to what you are talking about.

That is some constructive criticism I hope you heed in the future before posting such nonsense.

\The PDGA exists to promote disc golf. You erroneously posting that the PDGA BOD has taken such an outrageous position, a position that would only, if true, serve to undermine the credibility that the PDGA has worked hard to build, does nothing to advance the sport of disc golf.

As a member I am going to defend that PDGA from such ridiculous claims and support the sport I enjoy and defend and commend the hundreds of unpaid volunteers who work tirelessly to advance the sport.

You've made plenty of high and mighty posts defending the PDGA and criticizing OTHERS when they say something you feel puts the PDGA in a bad light.

Can't wait to see what you have to say about YOU making the PDGA look silly.

Actually, reading the minutes is pretty confusing: the topic is about "K2/Medicinal marijuana." Then there is a motion that follows that Jeff copied. Is the motion about smoking K2/Medicinal marijuana, or about tabacco?

ps. I am thankfully ignorant on this subject. I only know K2 as a very big mountain.

James & Pete,

I was very careful to first confirm today with a BoD member, and before posting anything, that the motion is for ALL smoking.

This thread was originally started by the OP wishing to see PDGA events go non-smoking. The thread continues to be dedicated to exactly that.

Smoking is illegal in many CA parks outside of designated smoking areas. This would explain the ruling for Pro Worlds. However, unless NY has the same laws I wouldn't understand this ruling applying to Am Worlds as well.

for some reason i think the same people that decided that banning smoking was a good idea would backtrack so quick if winston wanted to sponser a $100000 championship series id go further as to say you might get a pack of smokes in your players pack.
a question...what percentage of board members are smokers,what percentage of golfers are smokers,i would think they arent even close .

and so you know ive recently quit real cigs i smoke an e-cig now and get the nicoteen i crave and only exhale water vapor but as a 20 year smoker at 1-2 packs a day it would not have been uncommon for me to smoke a whole pack in 18 holes between the extra tourny pressure and the backups that happen between holes.most smokers smoke more during tourny play.

its crazy that this information has not been passed on to the people it will effect,the ones pre-regging ,prebooking flights,hotels,taking vacation.Even if only a few people wouldnt play because of this "rule" they should have all the info before they commit what might be a few thousand dollars!!!

i smoke.
i dont break any laws while smoking.
i will not make the trip to new york,if they are ruling all cigarette smoking is dq able during the rounds.
new york could loose tens of thousands of dollars with this ruling.
bad idea.
pdga bod members who may be watching this thread please address this issue by email to each and every invited player.

Use a patch during rounds or chew some nicorette. Those K2'ers can eat some brownies. I don't mind 2nd hand brownie smell.

Use a patch during rounds or chew some nicorette. Those K2'ers can eat some brownies. I don't mind 2nd hand brownie smell.

i dont have a problem with the new rule.i dont agree with it but thats another issue.the problem i have is that there are people spending there $ and making plans to attend a tournament without knowing about this new "rule".will the tournament staff have nicorette and patches available at no cost?

all you non-smokers really dont understand what its like for a smoker that plays multiple rounds a week and smokes all the time during those rounds to show up for a tourny and find out after spending alot of $ that your not going to be allowed to smoke.its easy for a non-smoker to say its just 3 hours without one your not "addicted".....notice the word its not a choice its an addiction

The big problem with this is that the membership has an expectation. That expectation is found in duely adopted rules and competition manual. Now this comes out of the blue. It's like it is some whim. The board gets in a room, throws out some whims that conflict with everyone's expectations, and votes on them.

Why not come up with other whims already addressed in the rules? Make this year's Worlds really unique. Two stroke penalties for OB that the board deems worthy. Forehands every third tee off. Three practice throws a round. Hell, make it a match play event.

What goes through their minds? Also, giving touring players a waiver from the $10 test, but keeping it for all others. Can we say "tone deaf"?

What goes through their minds? Also, giving touring players a waiver from the $10 test, but keeping it for all others. Can we say "tone deaf"?

im also curious if this $10 waved fee is an acceptable practice for a non-profit organization.it seems to me the tour pros are "profitting" $10 a piece.but surely the pdga researched this right?ill try to find non-profit guidlines or call legal aid and see

I'm sure they'll mention it in the players' meeting, and then people who need the patch or the nicorette can go out and get some.

I spent the weekend breathing other players' smoke. Maybe I'll sign up for Am Worlds and enjoy a smoke-free tournament.

personally i think the discarding of the rfp process for the worlds video is more disturbing...

Old Apr 05 2011, 06:31 PM #5
bravo
PDGA Member

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Posts: 943

Default
new pdga rule at worlds will keep me from playing another worlds tourney.
it is my understanding that smoking a cigarette during the rounds will be grounds for disqualification.
i wonder what is going on in the heads of the board of directors.
the idea that a member driven association would support such a decission is beyond my understanding.
__________________
"i said it mean,but didn't say anything mean"

should not be allowed to smoke anything at any PDGA sanctioned event in my opinion. why should the smokers get their vice when the drinnkers are not allowed to anymore!!!!! played with a guys this weekened and he smoked a cig on every tee box just to get a wind read of the smoke..

It's a free-for-all!!!

Yes, I applaud the decision and hopefully this makes ground to all PDGA sanctioned events!

I'm curious what a membership poll or better yet a TD and a membership poll might show on this subject

why should the smokers get their vice when the drinnkers are not allowed to anymore!!!!!

THE RULE ABOUT DRINKING IS IN THE MOST CURRENT RULE BOOK AND COMPITITION MANUAL
THE RULE ABOUT SMOKING HASN'T EVEN MADE PRINT BY THE AUTHORITY. FOR THE PLAYER /MEMBER BASE.
FOR SOME REASON THE BOD BELIEVES THEY CAN MAKE UP RULES AT A WHIM.
WHEN DID THEY THINK WAS THE APPROPRIATE TIME TO INFORM THE MEMBER BASE?

why not offer smoking and non-smoking cards? you may not stay within your division with that but it would put spacing for the most part between groups.

I can see it now at checkin: Smoking, Non-smoking, or first available?

Hopefully I will not get banned for this but here goes.

What i am seeing is the PDGA BOD is now mostly or part of the touring Pros that are making thousands of dollars playing disc golf. They all so have full sponorship. They have gotten the $10.00 dollar fee waived for the test (I think I read that right). Please tell me what the PDGA does for all the AMs out there.....keep player rating (ok). if you pay the extra amout get a magzine (ok). Please enlighten me as to what else!

Now the PDGA BOD wants to ban smoking. Drinking during events and in most cases drinking at all in public parks is not allowed. Smoking in the parks is allowed! If the parks allow smoking then it should be allowed during the events. If the parks do not allow smoking then do not allow it. I usually play in about 10 or more events a year. I STILL see drinking during play and was in a group this year that someone was smoking pot. I feel none of this will ever get fixed. People do not stand up for the rules and if one person does they get labled and they need a second to get the DQ. Most of the seconds never step up! It is all so a "good ole boy" thing too. "Well he has always done it" Or a who is a friend of who!

My feeling is this. Make it a coursity violation with a warning. If the person shows total dis-reguard to this warning access the strokes. Never make smoking a DQ thing.

Please I am not knocking our touring Pros. they are the face of our sport and the ones who will take us to ...... will maybe ESPN! I do look every week to see how they have done on tour and enjoy reading about them. All in am saying is it feels like the PDGA is all about them and making their lives better. Please remember the little guys!

I STILL see drinking during play and was in a group this year that someone was smoking pot. I feel none of this will ever get fixed. People do not stand up for the rules and if one person does they get labled and they need a second to get the DQ. Most of the seconds never step up! It is all so a "good ole boy" thing too. "Well he has always done it" Or a who is a friend of who!
Sorry, but if you're going to call out the PDGA for people not standing up for the rules when you yourself apparently didn't stand up for the rules, it's going to ring hollow. I love reading the "no one does anything about" this and that when the person saying it doesn't do anything either. If you called him on it and got no support, I take it back, but it doesn't read that way.

My feeling is this. Make it a coursity violation with a warning. If the person shows total dis-reguard to this warning access the strokes. Never make smoking a DQ thing.
It already is. 801.01 E is entirely about smoking and smoke. So again, it's people not calling violations when they feel it's necessary. It's not difficult to ask a smoker to mind their smoke. I've done it and every time the smoker obliged without objection. Usually apologized for not realizing the issue first.

As for the rule for Worlds, I think we should see how it plays out practically before it goes any further. As a non-smoker, I won't be affected if smoking is banned during rounds. But I also don't really have a problem with it either so long as the smoker is aware and careful with where his smoke is going.

As for the image thing...professional ball golfers smoke during tournament rounds. They just are extremely careful about doing it off camera and away from the crowds. If, when the time comes and we're a televised sport, Feldberg and Climo want to have a smoke during a two-group back-up, I don't see there being an issue with stepping off to the side away from the cameras and the huge crowds and having a cigarette. If John Daly can do it, so can they.

I'm all for banning everything that anyone finds offensive. How about spitting? I don't spit when I play. Why do I have to walk through a puddle of someone's mouth-goo on the way to the tee. I don't want your throat and lung germs all over my shoes. Am I allowed to call courtesy violation on spitters? I don't care if we're outside. If your spit is on my shoe, it's the same as if you spit in my living room.

Spitting isn't even addictive; it's merely a sign of disrespect. I've never seen a spitter clean up their spit. Unlike a cigarette butt, they just leave the puddle of spit right there on the ground.

Why is spitting OK when everyone from polite society can see it represents a crude and uncultured individual. How are we ever going to get on ESPN if we have spitters?

Do any of the board members spit when they play? Wearing a fancy collared shirt and gacking up phlegm like a coal miner. Why do you think that's OK? Why isn't there a rule against this?

Hilarious Ellen, I couldn't stop laughing. In Singapore it's illegal to chew bubble gum. They don't want people to place their chewed up gum on the bottom of a chair or spit it out on the sidewalk and leave gum stains. You can get arrested for chewing gum!

I'm really amazed as to the pro-smokers enthusiasm to this ruling. It reminds me of the outcry when smoking first got banned in public indoor places such as malls and restaurants in California. Now it's a thrill to walk in a restaurant and eat my food without the smell or smoke of tobacco. Then when I go visit a restaurant somewhere else that does allow smoking it really is disgusting and smells bad.

As far as smoking during events, I have conflicting opinions. On one hand, if a player is smoking and is conscious and courteous of other players and spectators and doesn't bring their smoke around the other players or near the tee-pad, then I don't see it as a major issue. However, when players assume it�s okay, and don't even take the courtesy to ask prior to walking up to the tee-pad or lighting their cigarette in front of other players then I have an issue. Non-smokers should not have to ask for smokers to not smoke in their area or tee pad. It should always be the smokers asking if it's okay before lighting up. And don't cop an attitude if someone politely replies, yeah it does bother me.

Now if the BOD decides hey, we want to reflect a positive image and not have our PDGA players smoking during rounds, then great. Smoking is unhealthy and harmful to others. I'm not suggesting that we outlaw or ban smoking, cause in the end I think everyone is entitled to personal freedom in their own privacy.

i dont believe second hand smoke outdoors ever killed anybody.
as a smoker i agree that it is the smokers responsabuility to identify the players they may offend and with that knowledge behave accordingly.
i also believe that a non smoker who may be offended should let it be known at the beginning of the round that he or she will enforce the courtesy ruling as described in the rule book.

i also believe that a non smoker who may be offended should let it be known at the beginning of the round that he or she will enforce the courtesy ruling as described in the rule book. I disagree, don't mean to go tit-for-tat here, but the rulebook states "Courtesy dictates that players who smoke should not allow their smoke to disturb other players." If your going to smoke then the smoker needs to take the initial step to check with the card, not the other way around. Non-smokers shouldn't have to start their round by announcing their rule zealots as to smoking. Politely ask if it's okay to smoke, then either you get the answer you want or you make every effort to not disturb other players. Not so hard to do.

Patrick, I was completely serious in my post.

I know this will make some people angry, but I would like to see PDGA events go non-spitting. In Battle Creek it is a disorderly conduct offense to spit. Expectorating on a public surface in Virginia is a violation of state law. Illinois rescinded their public spitting law but it was left on the books. Kudos to Illinois for recognizing that spitting and smoking are both foul.

The only time during my week that I run into spitters is when I play a PDGA sanctioned event. None of the ladies in our disc league spit, none of my friends spit, no one in my family spits. My father is 84 years old and the few times in my life when I saw him spit he spit into a trash can, where spit belongs.

I find it strange that I went to a rodeo in Wyoming a few years ago and the people in the stands didn't cover the seats and aisles in spit; they spit into cans and cups, but I have to deal with it at a PDGA event.

I know there are no rules regarding spitting, and if I asked someone not to spit I'd be seen as the bad girl. A few years ago everyone on my card but me spit. It seemed no one could launch a drive without shooting a little juice out of their mouths. I guess they thought I wanted to tromp around in their spittoon all day.

I would like to hear the pros and cons on this matter, and I would like to know how other people who don't spit deal with spitters.

"Keep your snag in your bag."

patrick i started my post with the smoker being responsible to start the conversation.
i agree with you.
at that time the response of the other players dictates the smokers behavior.

I would say that forcing smokers, who are legally allowed to smoke and in no way is illegal to smoke outside unless your in the republic of california or high fire hazard areas, would be an unfair advantage during a physical competition.

Also it is very upsetting that the PDGA does not feel that a rule of this magnitude needs to be communicated to all members.

alcohol = drunk = public intoxication = illegal
unmentionable = illegal
Cigarettes = legal if not in public building, place of business, some high risk wildfire area.

WTF is the pdga thinking. Since they banned smoking whats next DQ people for prescription drugs.

Urgent update!!! PRESCRIPTION DRUGS & OTC DRUGS ARE NOW PROHIBITED DURING PDGA TOURNEYS.

Oh yeah and its illegal to drink and smoke weed during rounds, but you can show up to a round hammered and stoned... so i guess its not that its illegal.

So I guess im gonna go back to paying $10 extra for tourneys and no longer playing world dubs or any A tiers.:mad::mad:

is there a stats person who can talley the general pdga membership to see if this off the hip decision is supported by the majority of the membership?

SO I called the PDGA HQ today, guess what about.

I was transferred to a lady by the receptionist after I informed her I was calling about the lack of announcement of the smoking ban @ Am and Pro Worlds.
She told me there was no ban, and nothing in the rule books said anything about banning smoking.

I read her the minutes from the meeting in Jan 2011 that approved the ban of all smoking at Pro/Am Worlds with a 5/1 vote.
She had no idea, how does the PDGA HQ have no idea about a ban of this magnitude involving what is supposed to be their biggest event?

They have hired some new people since January.

Why not make it Mandatory !!!!!!! DO NOT SMOKE ANYTHING at ALL PDGA EVENTS ? PERIOD !!!



That should Burn Alot of Players !!!!

If you don't like the ruling then remember how the board members voted and don't vote for them again.

I hope the ruling is not only for players but also for a TD, Official, Marshall, PDGA Rep, etc...

Just saw this posted on the PDGA homepage:
Smoking is banned during competition at the 2011 PDGA Pro and Amateur World Championships. Players will not be permitted to smoke from the start of play until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Smoking of any kind during competition may result in immediate disqualification and further disciplinary action as stated in the PDGA Competition Manual, Section 3.3 Player Misconduct. If you have any questions please contact the PDGA Tour Manager at ... --http://www.pdga.com/announcements/2011-worlds-non-smoking-policy (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/../announcements/2011-worlds-non-smoking-policy)

Just saw this posted on the PDGA homepage:
--http://www.pdga.com/announcements/2011-worlds-non-smoking-policy (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/../announcements/2011-worlds-non-smoking-policy)
and when were worlds invites sent out?

Just saw this posted on the PDGA homepage:
--http://www.pdga.com/announcements/2011-worlds-non-smoking-policy (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/../announcements/2011-worlds-non-smoking-policy)

i do not like this..at all. what is the basis??? if it is smoke bothering other players,why not make it clear that it can be construed a courtesy violation if the player smoking is not "courteous?" if it is a litter problem, well, not only do i pick up my own butts, but,(HA HA) i pick up others, and wouldn't dropping a butt be a courtesy violation on its own? someone please help me understand the rationale behind such a rash decision.

well now would be a time to find out how much this decision will cost the worlds hosts.
i know i had planned on this worlds as a mini vacation for my whole family.
i will not be traveling to new york now.
i wonder who else wont make the trip ?

i am glad to see a formal announcment albeit to late,asthe decision was made prior to the invites.

is there going to be an idividual contact to each of the invited players?

Poor decision in my opinion but it gets worse.

I emailed PDGA Executive Director Brian Graham and discovered the board has debated numerous times banning smoking at ALL sanctioned events but is testing the change at PDGA owned events first.

The day where you can't smoke at sanctioned tourneys is coming.

I'm still waiting for your apology, Pete.

I hope the ruling is not only for players but also for a TD, Official, Marshall, PDGA Rep, etc...


I wonder if this will be the case.....

the minutes read:


MOTION (Korver/Jenkins)
Restrict smoking at the PDGA Pro and Am World Championships in 2011 in the same manner that
alcohol is currently restricted.
Yes: Andrews, Korver, Jenkins, Feldberg, Nesbitt
No: Decker
Motion passes 5-1.
TD, Official, Marshall, PDGA Rep can't drink during rounds can they? So will smoking also be banned to them?

The drinking, and now smoking, rules apply to players and their caddies. See Competition Manual, 3.3.

It is interesting that the announcement is different from Board resolution. The announcement bans consumption during play, but the Board resolution, by virtue of the rule banning alcohol, would ban personal possession during play.

I should change my sig line.

If you don't like the ruling then remember how the board members voted and don't vote for them again.

If the organization thought you could influence its policies by voting, you wouldn't be voting! :D

I'm still waiting for your apology, Pete.

Better get a chair, it's going to be a long wait

Well Pete, just remember that the next time you accuse someone of posting 'nonsense', and 'ridiculous claims' and 'erroneously posting that the PDGA BOD has taken such an outrageous position,' you should first have at least a small clue as to what YOU are talking about!

yawn

Stupid F'n rule...I'm done with the PDGA

Poor decision in my opinion but it gets worse.

I emailed PDGA Executive Director Brian Graham and discovered the board has debated numerous times banning smoking at ALL sanctioned events but is testing the change at PDGA owned events first.

The day where you can't smoke at sanctioned tourneys is coming.

whats next??? will there be new rules concerning throwing standards and procedure? you may now throw only disc in a non-threatening color in a manner which may not be construed violent or aggressive so as not to offend anyone on the face of the earth. walk up to the tee-box, throw, and return directly to your chair(made of only recyclable materials) and sit patiently. most importantly , any celebration will be deemed criminal and you will be decapitated. for the love of the game i will be at worlds, playin' by the rules. but i have to disagree with this.

for the love of the game all smokers should boycott pdga events and let the pdga recognize the financial impact.

I am posting this at the risk of some sort of arbitrary punishment. I think it warrants a discussion. Explaination or whatever. I quit smoking 9 years ago if it matters. But I think a ban with out a way for there to be a discussion is stupid.

"Smoking is banned during competition at the 2011 PDGA Pro and Amateur World Championships. Players will not be permitted to smoke from the start of play until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Smoking of any kind during competition may result in immediate disqualification and further disciplinary action as stated in the PDGA Competition Manual, Section 3.3 Player Misconduct. If you have any questions please contact the PDGA Tour Manager at [email protected] or 706-261-6342."

Sorry about the punctuation.

I am posting this at the risk of some sort of arbitrary punishment. I think it warrants a discussion. Explaination or whatever. I quit smoking 9 years ago if it matters. But I think a ban with out a way for there to be a discussion is stupid.


You mean like the discussion that has been going on here during this month?
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=28983

Well now before we ban smoking shouldn't we first do DRUG TESTS? OH wait we probably wouldn't have that many pros left playing would we?
The trip to AM worlds has been a debate in this house because of rising gas prices, But we were still leaning toward going. NOW I think the PDGA just made the decision for us. Guess we are staying home. And if the policy passes for ALL sanctioned events there will be 6 events in this area that will no longer be ran.

So the electronic cigs should be banned to right?

I Played at BG ams and only THIS WEEK learned that there was no smoking rules for the parks. NOT once did a course TD say anything about not smoking in the parks. NOT once did I get an email prior to going down saying that there was no smoking in the parks. and it is obvious that MANY MANY others did not get the info too because people were smoking eveywhere during the tournament.I was told that the no smoking rule was in the book in our players pack about not smoking, the only thing I looked out in that book was the OB list at each park while playing. If they had told people beforehand I doubt many would have showed up.
IF rules like this are going to be changed then they should be changed PRIOR to people renewing their memberships not after that way people can decide if they want to continue their membership.
And talking about making this a tournament wide decision Why not make it a TD option BUT one that they have to make public on the PDGA website where their tournament is listed. this is a smoking or non smoking event that way people know BEFORE they sign up or as they will find out in many cases NOT sign up.
Can I go 3 hours without smoking? YES have I have played many rounds without smoking. I always ask the group I am with if they mind, and I stay back behind them. I also tell them if I unintentonally mess up and light up near them to TELL ME. My butts are always field stripped and go in my bag too.

Yeah, there's no smoking in BG parks and there's no enforcement by PDGA TDs. So what's the big deal there? That isn't a PDGA rule; it's a local law. It's like public urination or letting your dog off the leash or wearing your pants too low. Everywhere you go they have different local laws from where you came from.

I think you can expect enforcement at PDGA Am Worlds. I've played a lot of Am Worlds and the players are always hyper about the rules.

I'm pretty sure you can still smoke if you're wearing a Henley... :D

What the heck's a Henley?

still want to know the rationale behind this "decision".

I smoked for 38 yrs. and quit 4 yrs. ago and couldn't be happier about it. In defense of the smoker, though, it is not the place of the PDGA to play Mommy. Tobacco has been a staple of the economy of this country for centuries. It was promoted and accepted and still provides incomes for millions. If it is not illegal by law in the park, you have no business forcing a good player to deal with the nerves during competition. I expect the entries to suffer a bit because of this ruling. Wake up!!! It's not illegal for Bubba Watson to smoke in a PGA event.
Edit: I know he doesn't smoke, but others do.

I am stunned and very angry by this! This seems to be a policy that affects a high percentage of PDGA player-members. It seems to be a policy instituted in an effort to dictate non-competition related behavior from a moral or altruistic stand-point.

It is NOT the business of the PDGA to dictate health practices to its membership!

Part of the attractiveness of the sport of disc golf is that it is "inclusive" to a widely diverse demographic of people. Of huge importance in my mind (and I hope yours too) is that is has always touted itself as a sport of life-long participation. People whom smoke, or are over-weight, or old can still participate and even excel at it. Policies such as these would now seem to make it more of an "exclusionary" sport and as such, detracts from its membership.

If the motivation behind the PDGA's action in this matter is for the benefit of its membership's health, then they should consider offering smoking cessation programs and products and allow the members to choose for themselves whether they want to take advantage of the programs or not. Whether someone chooses to smoke or not is a personal decsion that only they have a right to make.

We elect PDGA Board of Directors to promote the growth of the sport, and to establish the rules of fair competition. We do not elect PDGA BoD members to dictate or monitor our personal health practices.

While I can easily go for a couple of hours without smoking a cigarette, I will likely start getting very "edgy" at the three hour mark. If an arbitrary assumption is made that smokers should be able to refrain from smoking for 3 hours, will there be a penalty imposed when events are run with rounds that take more than 3 hours against the PDGA or tournament directors? Will they have to call a "smoke-break" halt to a round after 3 hours? (There were players that experienced 6+ hour long rounds at the Tim Selinske US Masters tournament last weekend.)

How many smokers were represented at the BoD meeting where this was proposed and voted on and approved?

This affects a very large percentage of the PDGA membership in a way that has little or nothing to do with the actual sport, its rules or fairness of competition.

I always try to be courteous to anyone within my proximity who are non-smokers and I believe that anyone has a right to ask me to move down-wind or away from them if I am smoking. The existing rules seem sufficient in this regard. But the outright banning of smoking WAY oversteps the boundaries that we grant to the PDGA to govern our sport for us. Further, it seem likely that it might be heading down a path which will alienate a large portion of the active members and competitors. This decidedly is NOT what the PDGA BoD was elected to do.

Larry Kruse
PDGA #17545

You mean like the discussion that has been going on here during this month?
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=28983

Sorry I have been living in a cave. Missed the discussion.

If they want to impose a ban on smoking thats fine, they're just slowly adding to the things that are making the PDGA a useless organization.

Yearly renewal fee $75...what a F'n joke. What do I get for my money? A joke of a magazine? A "rating"...BFD.

As DG has exploded where I live the PDGA is becoming more irrelevant. More tournaments and even whole summer-long tournament series are being run without PDGA sanctioning. They even advertise the fact that it is "NON PDGA" and are proud of it.

The result is better payouts and more participation without the PDGA taking a huge chunk of money for their sanctioning.

The PDGA has been going downhill for years, now that people see it as an irrelevant organization. The PDGA has come out with gimmicks such as ratings to try and hang on to any interest that people may give them. But now that the PDGA is no longer needed because of the growth of the sport, it will die a slow painful death if it keeps going down the same path.

So keep making stupid decisions, alienating people from your organization.

Good riddance PDGA

Ching_Lizard --
Thanks for your post. That was very nicely said. I agree with you.

Protomag --
Please realize that as a smoker you no longer receive 100% of the magazine for your $75. This month's magazine devotes 8 pages (12.5% of the entire issue) to Disc Golf and the Older Player but the author, Rick Voakes, points out at the bottom of page 48, "If you actually do smoke, and don't plan to quit soon, you don't really have to read this article." [because it's not for you].

Hi Ellen

See ya at John's non PDGA leagues.

the Cartel CEO

A little historical perspective here:

The PDGA BoD nearly did away with smoking back in about 2003 or 2004, when they banned drinking for the first time. I know it was right before my time on the BoD. I'm not sure why they didn't. Many of the arguments they used at the time (minors present at the tourney, illegality of alcohol at some tourney sites, health hazards, etc.), also applied to smoking (even more so in some cases). There was also a tendency by the BoD at that time to want to lump legal drinking in with partaking of illegal substances for some reason, as if they were the same thing. For some reason, legal drinking was considered more "illegal" than legal smoking. I argued that smoking is really much worse, but that both things could be dealt with by already existing courtesy rules. My attempts to alter the policy failed.

There is precedent for not allowing smoking at a PDGA Worlds. The 2005 Am Worlds in Flagstaff banned smoking at all venues due to extreme drought in the area prior to the event and the presence of an extreme fire hazard. I imagine the same thing could possibly apply to Santa Cruz as well, but I would be surprised if this applied to Rochester.

I'm not sure why the BoD chose to ban smoking for only Worlds, and no other events, but I suspect they did it because they figured that Worlds was about the only place they could sufficiently enforce the rule. There are smoking bans in public parks and golf courses around the country. From my brief research online, it appears these rules are very rarely enforced.

My personal experience with PDGA events with a non-smoking venue is the Graceland Open at Graceland University in Lamoni, IA. Graceland is a tobacco-free campus. There are places that border the courses (city streets and a lagoon area near #15 tee) where players could smoke that were NOT on university property, so that smoking was allowed in those places, but nowhere else on the course. It was my experience that smokers typically smoked in those areas, and I never saw anyone light up anywhere on campus.

I am NOT a smoker, and I hate cigarette smoke. I've been mildly asthmatic since I was young, and smoking has never been on the agenda for me. When I still went to bars, I sort of expected cigarette smoke there, but I admit it was nice once Kansas City banned smoking in bars and restaurants. It was nice not coming home smelling like smoke. I don't think a public park has the same sorts of issues. Second hand smoke is much less of an issue. In my experience, smokers are typically sensitive to their surroundings at PDGA events, and generally keep their smoke away from non-smokers as much as possible. I understand that is NOT everyone's experience.

What I would do is to urge the PDGA to reconsider a little bit on this. I think that if smoking is normally allowed in the venue, then they should designate a few places where smoking is allowed. Maybe a parking lot, an area where backups normally happen (if there is a clear area away from players to do so safely). I don't think someone should be penalized for smoking in their car during a 3-group backup, if smoking is normally allowed where their car is parked.

In short, I'm not sure why we're banning smoking at Worlds only. Either ban it for all events, or allow it in all events at venues where smoking is allowed. Personally, I'd vote for the latter.

Chap

You can say the same about BEER.

Just use chewing tobacco, problem solved!

Chappy that was very well said coming from a non smoker, and on many points can agree with you. I can see the no drinking aspect of things because there are local, state and federal laws againsg drinking from public intoxicatoin to the fact that the host of the event could be held liable if someone left the event and caused an accident.
As I said earlier I had no idea about no smoking at BG until this last week No one ever said anything. Had I known it was a city law before hand I would have either not signed up or weighed my optoins before hand (ie. is there a place to go smoke if there is a back up.)
IF places are in areas where it is a fire hazard then te PDGA should take that into consideration before allowing them to host a major tournament like this. (ie. californina, Arizona) the places where every summer wildfires breakout if someone sneezes the wrong way. however chances are if an area like that is hosting an event about 90%of the participants will be from that area and are already aware of the fire hazards around them and local laws that govern smoking. which may be the case in california for the pro worlds. BUT NY? I looked things up a little last night and the only place that has banned smoking in parks and beaches is NY CITY, which is NOT even close to where am worlds is being held.
Smoking is legal, and as you said MOST all smokers are considerate to the others in thier group. And if they are not I would hope that the Non smokers would say something to them about going downwind and such. I would also hope that most smokers like myself ask the group "do you mind if I smoke as long as I stay downwind"
But this ruling by the PDGA is them trying to "Govern" it members by what they want. I read this earlier above and I kinda chuckeled because I had just put it on a flier a couple weeks ago in another attempt to start a ladies league. Ladies Come out and learn to play disc golf there is no Age, weight, height or health requirements the only requirement is that you be Female. Disc Golf has been an event that allows everyone to play But now it seems the PDGA wants to EXCLUDE certain players.
There were 10 of us here locally who got the invite to worlds and we were all making our plans and raising money to make the trip possible with gas prices and such. Now that this ruling has come out we have decided this weekend not to make the trip except one and that was because entry and hotel had already been paid for. Of the 10 only 2 were NON smokers.
Had I and the others known back in December that this was even a consideration, I would NOT have renewed my membership to the PDGA as I am sure the others would have not either. I read on the PDGA website that membership once again increased this year, I wonder how much it would have DECREASED had people known they were going to pull a no smoking policy? I heard this was a "test" and that they may make it a a policy for all sanctioned tournaments. I bet meberships wont get renewed next year until people are sure of what the PDGA is gonna do with this policy.
Our household runs 6 tournaments a year, WE run them not a club, 2 of those tournaments fill completely and we add holes to accomidate as many as we can, the other 4 are close to full. With our reputation established we can still run those events without sanctioning from the PDGA and fill up. Which would make Payout better for the players anyways because then we DONT have to pay the PDGA all the money. It may not sound like alot with just our 6 tournaments but what would be if you got 6 here, 2 there, and so on making thier tournaments NON SANCTIONED?

Chappy, based on an email exchange I had with Brian Graham the PDGA is testing the no smoking rule at Worlds this year as a test before possibly banning smoking at ALL PDGA events in the future.

They are testing the idea at PDGA owned events first.

I believe this is a bad idea. I believe the way, or the lack of way, this was communicated to the members was even worse.

Chappy, based on an email exchange I had with Brian Graham the PDGA is testing the no smoking rule at Worlds this year as a test before possibly banning smoking at ALL PDGA events in the future.

They are testing the idea at PDGA owned events first.

I believe this is a bad idea. I believe the way, or the lack of way, this was communicated to the members was even worse.

I don't disagree with you, Pete, and what you're saying sort of agrees with what I was thinking. Worlds, or any other PDGA-owned event, is the only place where PDGA could really enforce the no smoking ordinance to give it a good test. The fact that the touring-pro led board voted FOR this initiative is a little bit telling.

PDGA - how does the non-smoking policy pertain to e-cigs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cigarette)? Permitted or not?

i understand banning smoking in public buildings but banning smoking in the open air of a public park on a course built by the local club and the county of that state! WTF is the pdga thinking? i now know the pdga is a lame JOKE!!!!!! i been out of the pdga for 10 yrs, had i known i was renewing to a wanna be nazi like dictatorship run by a bunch of "homers" i would have not renewed and stayed a casual player. this is a issue that should be decided by the players at the players meeting of each event. maybe the pdga should run background checks on its members, i would be much more concerned to know if i was playing a round with a convicted dead beat dad, girlfriend/wife beater, or child molester than to worry about a guy smoking a cigarette in the open air of a park

Considering the PGA tour allows smoking, I think this is super crazy.

Considering the PGA tour allows smoking, I think this is super crazy.Considering that you'd be suspended from the Tour for stuff that our rules allow, like moving sticks and twigs out of your way, or taking free relief from some inconvenient lies, I don't see the relevance of PGA rules.

When I talk to parks people there are two things that really **** them off about disc golfers: broken glass beer bottles and cigarette butts. I can tell them, well, the beer bottles were not from PDGA tournaments. Maybe some day we'll be able to say the same about the cigarette butts.

Considering the PGA tour allows smoking, I think this is super crazy.

Agreed. A classic overreaction to something, IMHO, but I'm not sure what. The first PDGA dress code was similarly more restrictive than the PGA Tour until we made adjustments to it after year 1.

Considering that you'd be suspended from the Tour for stuff that our rules allow, like moving sticks and twigs out of your way, or taking free relief from some inconvenient lies, I don't see the relevance of PGA rules.

When I talk to parks people there are two things that really **** them off about disc golfers: broken glass beer bottles and cigarette butts. I can tell them, well, the beer bottles were not from PDGA tournaments. Maybe some day we'll be able to say the same about the cigarette butts.

I cant think of one PDGA player that throws cigg butts on the ground.The cigg butts are not from the PDGA tour, so your point is moot.

They ad an article on the home page that said that smoking was banned for the Pro worlds because of the concern of droughts at that time of year. I can understand and accept that. though as I said before that is something the PDGA sshould take into consideration PRIOR to determining the sites for such major events. But still there is NO LOGIC behind banning it at AM worlds.
OH they also said they knew they would get negative feedback because of the decision. HMMMM ya think?
Well PDGA I want to know BEFORE I renew my membership next year if you are puliing this crap again because that will determine if I renew my membership or NOT.

When I talk to parks people there are two things that really **** them off about disc golfers: broken glass beer bottles and cigarette butts. I can tell them, well, the beer bottles were not from PDGA tournaments. Maybe some day we'll be able to say the same about...

Gatorade bottles. I see them everywhere -- parks, roads, yards, disc courses. Since I'm an H2O purist, I'm offended by them. Nothing more offensive to me than someone breathing electrolyte breath in my face. Can't these potassium addicts go three hours without their drug?

If the PDGA would just ban Gatorade, I'd be able rest easy knowing those bottles didn't come from one of our events.

Ellen,

What's worse... the spitters or the Gatorade drinkers?

(no it isn't a serious question)

I cant think of one PDGA player that throws cigg butts on the ground.The cigg butts are not from the PDGA tour, so your point is moot.The last two tournaments I played with so many rude smokers, even if it is half of y'all, I won't miss you during the boycott.

At a tourney in Augusta's Pendelton Park one year, the fence near the RR track, caught on fire. The vines that had grown up all summer were dried up and on the ground when a butt fired them up. Quite a surprise for the TD.!

The last two tournaments I played with so many rude smokers, even if it is half of y'all, I won't miss you during the boycott.

Guess what...I wont miss you either...lol

Ellen,

What's worse... the spitters or the Gatorade drinkers?



Of course the worst is a Gatorade bottle full of spit. I faint if I see one, risking twisting my ankle or striking my head against a stump. You can see why I'm concerned about these issues. ;)

Considering the PGA tour allows smoking, I think this is super crazy.

It is my understanding that this comes with a caveat - while the PGA tour does technically allow smoking (in that players who smoke are not DQed) players who engage in smoking, cursing, and other courtesy violations, especially when caught on TV cameras, are fined by the PGA and supposedly heavily so. These fines, and especially the amounts, are not publicly announced. Tiger Woods is purported to have been fined a dozen or more times over his career for loud cussing.

Other than the lack of communication on this issue, I don't see what all the hub-bub is; since Pro Worlds was already smoke-free due to drought conditions and California law, this really only applies to a couple hundred potential smokers for Am Worlds in Rochester this summer. I used to smoke almost a pack a day for 5+ years in my late teens and early 20s, and I quit using gum; for those who are really going to suffer during their Worlds rounds, I really don't get why the patch or nictone gum isn't an acceptable option. Also remember that this is a trial evaluation (http://www.pdga.com/worlds-smoking-ban) and we're a long, long way from this ever becoming a standard policy for all Worlds, NT events, Supertours, or lower tier events. If the measure is as truly unpopular as some folks are claiming, then I am sure the BoD is going to hear about it from their constituents over the summer. The discussion at the 2011 Fall Summit should be quite interesting.

Again, I really only question the timing of this issue. For the board to vote on this in Janaury and then fail to formally announce it until April and after Worlds invites were accepted and folks had already made travel plans is really quite unacceptable. I also agree to an extent that optimally, the motion should have been passed and announced in October or November 2010 to allow those who were truly opposed to the principle of the matter to let it be a factor on deciding whether to renew with the PDGA for 2011.

My $.02
-The Lung, ex-smoker

Smoking has been banned during competition at both the 2011 PDGA Professional and Amateur Disc Golf World Championships. Players will not be permitted to smoke from the start of play until the player�s scorecard has been submitted. Smoking of any kind during competition could result in immediate disqualification and further disciplinary action as stated in the PDGA Competition Manual, Section 3.3 Player Misconduct.

After many months of contemplation, In January 2011 the PDGA Board made the decision to restrict smoking during both the 2011 PDGA Pro World Championships in Santa Cruz CA and the 2011 PDGA Amateur & Junior World Championships in Rochester NY. The Board was well aware of the potential ramifications of this decision and how others have addressed this issue, and this board (as has past boards) debated this issue for some time before making this decision for 2011.The board has not made any decisions on a long term smoking policy for our major events. With the 2011 PDGA Pro Worlds in Santa Cruz requiring a smoking ban due to the drought conditions in California, the Board felt this was the opportune time to test the waters on the impact of a smoking ban at our two (2) most visible and public events � the PDGA World Championships.

We will evaluate the effects of this policy for the future at our 2011 Fall Summit, and we welcome your comments and suggestions.
I am curious how not during rounds but its OK before and after rounds is correct if it is due to drought conditions :confused:

I am curious how not during rounds but its OK before and after rounds is correct if it is due to drought conditions :confused:No one said it was o.k. before and after rounds. It's like a "No Drinking" park. There's a PDGA rule that makes it dq-able to possess alcohol during the round, no matter what the park rule says. There is another PDGA rule that would ban consumption before and after, if consumption is illegal in the park. In other words, there is one PDGA rule that punishes certain activities even though they might be legal and another that punishes them if they are illegal.

The point about doing it this year is, since its going to be forbidden by local law, it does not impose any further burden to forbid it by PDGA rule, at Pro Worlds in California. As for the ams, well, who cares about the ams? Really.

if this takes away a couple of hundred am players, as it should by protest, then new york may have one of the smallest fields in worlds history.

if this takes away a couple of hundred am players, as it should by protest, then new york may have one of the smallest fields in worlds history.

That's all well and good in theory, but for every player who would boycott, there are a dozen more who will want in off the waiting list. Each year there are hundreds who get in off the waiting list.

Am Worlds attendance has been 545, 530, 568, 595, and 504 players from the years 2006-2010 respectively and I think there's little chance there will be less than 500 again this year.

I agree with the ban, I have asthma and the last thing i need is a big plume of smoke in my face whenever I am playing, I don't smoke, never have, So why should I be punished for wanting to breathe, and not go into an asthma attack? I'm not going to debate the habit, because my father is a smoker and has been for years and the reason why I have asthma, but every time I play it seems like there is no courtesy for me being hypersensitive to it. Most non-smokers like myself don't want to have damage to there body when they didn't cause it, second hand smoke is just as bad.

I agree with and support the Board's decision 100%.

Also, any competition involving Juniors should certainly maintain the smoking ban.

I hope this decision leads to further smoking bans during all NT and Major events, as it can only bring about positive changes, such as cleaner parks, better competition (a player isn't distracted by another's smoking), and a higher level of professionalism as viewed by potential sponsors.

As for the communication/timing of this, I really do not want my membership money going toward postage for mass-mailing to all members about this smoking ban. A special email might be the correct decision in order to inform everyone.
Kudos to the board for making this tough decision.

As for the communication/timing of this, I really do not want my membership money going toward postage for mass-mailing to all members about this smoking ban. A special email might be the correct decision in order to inform everyone.

I don't think anyone ever suggested a postage-paid mass mailing, but an inclusion in the Worlds Invites .pdf package, an announcement on the PDGA home page, an e-mail blast, and a post on the PDGA DIScussion Board would have sufficed. Though the BoD decision was passed in January, none of these occurred until April! http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/icons/icon13.gif

I agree with the ban, I have asthma and the last thing i need is a big plume of smoke in my face whenever I am playing, I don't smoke, never have, So why should I be punished for wanting to breathe, and not go into an asthma attack? I'm not going to debate the habit, because my father is a smoker and has been for years and the reason why I have asthma, but every time I play it seems like there is no courtesy for me being hypersensitive to it. Most non-smokers like myself don't want to have damage to there body when they didn't cause it, second hand smoke is just as bad.

if that is true the rules allowed previously for you to enforce the courtesy violation .
there is no reason a non smoker should have to deal with other peoples smoke,
how ever it is still legal to smoke outdoors,
the smoker is responsible to be responsible.
the offended is responsible to inform the offender.
if the offended doesnt inform the offender whos fault is that.

.
... for some reason i think the same people that decided that banning smoking was a good idea would backtrack so quick if Winston wanted to sponser a $100000 championship series
.

.
.
... B-I-N-G-O ... ! ! ! ... Give that Man a Cigar ...

Not necessarily. We've had big alcohol sponsors like Bells for PAW2008. The PDGA policy which has always banned drinking during rounds in all events, not just Worlds, and even in parks that allow it for those of legal age, was not bent for this sponsor and other alcohol sponsors we've seen. Bring on Winston and see what the Board says.

chuck your a well known asset for the pdga and the player.
what is your stand on the issue?
i would also like to know what the primary sponsors of disc events think about the issue.
discraft? innova? gateway? anybody else want to chime in for the record?

No comment other than I wish the announcement had gotten out before Worlds invites. I can understand how it could easily have dropped thru the cracks because the PDGA staff has been depleted since early January and was scrambling to hire new people while everyone remaining was trying to do more than one job. I hadn't read the Board minutes and known about the no smoking test for Worlds until someone found it and posted it a few weeks ago. So I had no insider info on it. I'll be watching to see what happens like everyone else.

In 1990 the Pro Bowling Tour banned smoking. Look where professional bowling is today. Doesn't look like the ban did much to increase the general image of bowling. At least the last few bowlers will live longer and the remaining 70 fans don't have to fear second hand cancer.

The PGA still allows it and seems to be doing just fine.

Hmmmm....Just sayin'.

im just waiting on the BOD to realize they are in better shape than most other golfers so they can change worlds format to speed golf they still have plenty of time to vote and they can just let the players know at the first players meeting... ;)

chuck your reply is somewhat like i'd expect from obama

This is ridiculous. We had a governor here in Wisconsin that slid through a no-smoking ban for bars and restaurants here about 2 yrs ago. It seems the PDGA is pulling the same stunt. I guess I can deal with the law here in WI, although I never met a person that went to a bar to get healthy. If the PDGA and the non-smoking board members think they will make friends, they are wrong. We are playing outside and I would have to say that we are in a pretty well ventilated area. It's not like we are playing in 50x50 room with no windows. As, long as they are banning things, may I make a suggestion? Ban soda, it attracts bees. I am allergic to bees and don't need to get stung and die. Ban Birdie Bags too. The powder is always going into my face and making me cough and choke. And don't forget to ban cologne. I'm allergic to that too. If they banned everything that was offensive to every whiner out there, we would all be playing naked with a bunch of plastic.

im all for naked coed disc golf

<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1; COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1>chuck your reply is somewhat like i'd expect from obama
Good thing, bad thing, or no thing? I don't smoke and smokers don't bother me on the course. It's a test like many other initiatives. You see what happens and decide if the trade-offs merit continuing, expanding or eliminating what's being tested. The only real test is Am Worlds since it sounds like Pro Worlds would have restrictions anyway.

If they banned everything that was offensive to every whiner out there, we would all be playing naked with a bunch of plastic.

PLASTIC! Sorry, Philly. When we throw a shank into the pond it's a "lost disc" but what about the people who don't disc? There's no denying a lost disc to them is "litter". No different than a cigarette butt or a pile of doggie doo, except that the disc will take decades to decompose, maybe even longer than that. How does this make us look in the public's eye? You don't see Sarena leaving a bunch of tennis balls all over the city of London after Wimbledon, do you? And I don't buy the excuse, "Well it's just part of our sport." Next they'll be telling us, "Well smoking is just part of our sport."

I'd like to see the PDGA ban all plastic discs, bottles, and bags to put an end to the disrespectful practice of losing "plastic". If we're going to keep chucking discs into woods and ponds, the PDGA needs to start working with the disc manufacturers as soon as possible to develop natural fabric discs.

I'd like to see cotton and wool discs for use at PDGA events. In fact, I'd like to see it happen at this year's Worlds. Let's make a bold statement, test it out this year and see how it goes. It's not too late; they can still get a notice up on the PDGA board before the events begin.

Maybe someday in 2030 we will all being playing a round in our natural-fiber, hemp jumpsuits with our wool and cotton discs and someone will say, "Hey, remember how fun this used to be? Back when you could throw plastic discs? Remember how cool they were when they flew, those big twisty S shots? Back when you could still smoke a cigarette and drink a Gatorade and spit while you were waiting to tee."

"Yeah," someone else will say. "But think about how good our image looks now. We might actually be on ESPN someday."

Let's all jump on the banned wagon!

Alright hold on, so long as we are banning plastic then we might as weel get rid of the metal baskets to. The metal one may rust and someone get cut on them, and since the PDGA does not make sure people tetnus shots are up to date they are just opening themselves up to get sued.
So all people who cannot produce proof of a current tetnus shot are banned.

BUT there may be a solution, turns out if cigarette butts are soaked in distilled water and then metal is coated with it, it prevents metal from rusting. (true story) BUT since smoking is banned that solution is out.
So metal basket are out, cant make them from plastic that was banned in the above post, cant make them of wood the tree huggers will be after you. Guess all that left is Human targets. OH and the human target cannot spit or drink gatoraide

I personally don't think we need any governing body regulating what we can and can't do. I'd like the PDGA to do something productive, like restricting any tom, dick, or harry, from running a PDGA sanctioned event.....there are soooo many bad tournaments that make the PDGA look worse than players smoking on the course. Once again, the minority in the PDGA think they know what's best for the majority....when will you all learn?? The PDGA's job should be to protect and market your top players to sponsors and the general public. Look at the thugs in the NBA and NFL.......and the job their PR teams do. PDGA board needs to quit adding stupid rules, get over themselves, and start putting the players interests first in their decision making!!

What is the purpose of banning smoking at the Worlds? Is it that it will improve the image of disc golf? Will more people then like disc golf and that elusive critical mass, for which the PDGA has been hoping, materialize?

When I read that there will be a ban on smoking cigarettes at the worlds, I was stunned. Such ham-handed rule making is a blatant disregard for the members of the PDGA. There is a courtesy rule that addresses this issue of cigarette smoking, so could someone explain why there needs to be this blanket ban?

The image of disc golf is what it is and imposing righteousness will not help. I will always try to expand and nurture this sport locally for my brothers and sisters, but I'm not about to tell them how to live.

Keep chasing the image of what you think the sport should look like and you'll find that the ones who play and enjoy this game look different than what you had in mind.

I was told it is a Fire Hazard at the Pro Worlds.

http://www.pdga.com/worlds-smoking-ban

Good eye there quickdisc. I can't count the numbers of fires along the freeway we have had here in San Diego County. There were at least 5 fires in the past 8 years within 2 miles of my past residence off the 52 freeway all caused from people throwing cigeratte butts from their car. Folks, the fires we have here in Cali are no joke.

Patrick that is FINE for pro worlds, if I read correctly that is a PARK or CITY rule. But imposing it on AM worlds is just the PDGA IMPOSING their will on us. I said it before IF fire hazards are a concern then maybe the PDGA should reconsider where the event is held or at least take it into consideration. Especially KNOWING that areas in CA. are prone to fires with what seems to me like YEAR ROUND.
NY does not have a no smoking rule in its parks so why infoce it?NY will probably take a huge hit over this through NO FAULT of their own.

Felons/sex offenders should be banned for life.

In an email exchange with Brian Graham I learned this is being tested in PDGA owned events with an eye towards banning smoking in the future at ALL PDGA events.

NY will probably take a huge hit over this through NO FAULT of their own.

Right, I'm sure that the $2.5 BILLION/yr Finger Lakes area tourism industry (http://www.visitsyracuse.org/uploads/files/NYS%20Tourism%20Economic%20Impact%20-%20Finger%20Lakes.zip)will be crippled when only 460 players show up for a disc golf tournament instead of the 500 they were expecting.

In an email exchange with Brian Graham I learned this is being tested in PDGA owned events with an eye towards banning smoking in the future at ALL PDGA events.


This could be Huge ! I really hope this works out for the Best for all players and the TD's who run each event.

In an email exchange with Brian Graham I learned this is being tested in PDGA owned events with an eye towards banning smoking in the future at ALL PDGA events.

I doubt it will happen. The PDGA will lose too many members by pulling that kind of stunt. I could see them asking members ahead of time if they smoke or don't mind smokers. Maybe putting them in their own groups during tournaments. Put the non-smokers, whiners, and everyone else that is holier than thou in a different group.:cool:

I doubt it will happen. The PDGA will lose too many members by pulling that kind of stunt. I could see them asking members ahead of time if they smoke or don't mind smokers. Maybe putting them in their own groups during tournaments. Put the non-smokers, whiners, and everyone else that is holier than thou in a different group.:cool:

I frankly don't think it's enforceable at anything but A-Tier and above events, unless smoking is banned on the course for other reasons (city ordinance, university policy, state law, fire hazard, etc....) TDs just aren't going to enforce this unless they really want to, especially when discourteous smoking is already covered under the rules. I could be wrong, though.

Chap

PS I figured Santa Cruz would be non-smoking, due to the fire hazard. No worries there. In Flagstaff at Am Worlds in 2005, we did not allow smoking on course property, even between rounds. Smokers were told to go the parking lot, or somewhere off the course. I imagine that in Santa Cruz the rule will be enforced similarly.

Updated policy posted on the homepage:

Smoking is banned during competition at the 2011 PDGA Pro and Amateur World Championships. Players will not be permitted to smoke from the start of play until the player�s scorecard is submitted. Smoking of any kind during competition may result in immediate disqualification and further disciplinary action as stated in the PDGA Competition Manual, Section 3.3 Player Misconduct.

At this year�s Spring Summit, the PDGA Board of Directors clarified details of the smoking policy in place for the 2011 PDGA Pro World Championships in Santa Cruz CA and the 2011 PDGA Amateur & Junior World Championships in Rochester NY.

* E-cigarettes and chewing tobacco are not allowed under the smoking policy

* Open and visual possession of any product banned under the smoking policy will be treated as a courtesy violation, and violators will be asked to put away the product until after the cards are turned in. Repeated offenses will be handled per 801.01F

The PDGA is initiating a number of programs to develop and grow youth and student participation in our sport. This policy will help strengthen our image in the eyes of the public, and allow us to further enhance the experience of competitive disc golf for all participants.

We will evaluate the effects of this policy for the future at our 2011 Fall Summit, and we welcome your comments and suggestions.
If you have any questions please contact the PDGA Tour Manager at ...--http://www.pdga.com/announcements/2011-worlds-non-smoking-policy

What is "open and visual possession"?

I have no issue with their stated goal, I applaud it actually. However, usually a goal comes first, then one asks for suggestions. After digesting the suggestions, one then debates and decides. Not sure this process really proceeded in this manner.

Assuming that in order to grow youth participation, one must "strengthen our image in the eyes of the public, and allow us to further enhance the experience of competitive disc golf for all participants," I wonder what other ideas were considered.

Glad PDGA is taking s stand and explained the non-smoking policy! I'm sure some people will rave and threaten to never renew their membership. But I bet more people will signup replacing them. Same thing happened in restaurants and bars in CA. People threatened to boycott these places, yet when the policy was passed, the bars and restaurants were still full.

Glad PDGA is taking s stand and explained the non-smoking policy! I'm sure some people will rave and threaten to never renew their membership. But I bet more people will signup replacing them. Same thing happened in restaurants and bars in CA. People threatened to boycott these places, yet when the policy was passed, the bars and restaurants were still full.


I could ALMOST understand this if we were playing indoors. But c'mon already. We are playing outside and I pay PDGA dues like everyone else. Just because the board members or some players don't smoke, doesn't mean that I should be forced to not smoke. Like I said in an earlier post, I am allergic to bee stings and soda/gatorade attracts bees. Maybe we should ban that stuff too. There are far too many people in this country that think that world revolves around them and they aren't happy unless they are making other people miserable. This isn't an IMAGE issue, this is a non-smoking board that feels that they need force their beliefs down our throats. What's next... No Catholics? No *** players? No felons?

Edit: Really??? Now G A Y is banned on the boards? ^^^ It wasn't meant in a derogatory way.

why would a e-cigarette be banned when i can smoke 1 in the hospital all i exhale is water vapor is someone going to get second hand water vapor you have got to be shi... me right?

I'm going to guess that e-cigarettes are banned because the BOD is looking at this as an image thing, not a health thing.

I'm going to guess that e-cigarettes are banned because the BOD is looking at this as an image thing, not a health thing.

Why ban the image of someone making the intelligent decision to try and quit smoking?

As a smoker myself I think it is ridiculous to ban smoking at Am Worlds (since pro would be anyways) but it is truly inspired idiocy to include in the ban one of the safe and clean alternatives for the people this ban will effect. Why in the world are "patches" and nicotine gum not banned then?

Look up "party bench" for the biggest laugh, or just disc golf/disc golfing in the Urban Dictionary. Is tobacco really the image issue in disc golf?


2012 Worlds Charlotte, Tobacco free, Trophy Only, and random UA's!

These are not good times for smokers.
Really getting thrown under the bus
in all parts of American society.

These are not good times for smokers.
Really getting thrown under the bus
in all parts of American society.

the funny thing is all the non-smokers should thank the smokers for paying all the tobacco taxes...if everyone in the US stopped smoking tomorrow any of you non-smokers have any idea where that tax loss would be recouped from?

the funny thing is all the non-smokers should thank the smokers for paying all the tobacco taxes...if everyone in the US stopped smoking tomorrow any of you non-smokers have any idea where that tax loss would be recouped from?

We'd learn to deal with it.

http://www.pdga.com/smoking-ban-clarified

the funny thing is all the non-smokers should thank the smokers for paying all the tobacco taxes...if everyone in the US stopped smoking tomorrow any of you non-smokers have any idea where that tax loss would be recouped from?

Right. The "sin taxes" on items like cigarettes and alcohol don't even begin to cover the costs that the consumption of those products incurs.

So if the image they are trying to set is for YOUTH, then why have alcohol at players parties? or Alcohol companies as sponsors?
Come on PDGA the PGA allows smoking and look at the youth involved in it.

Participation at non smoking events will go DOWN
PDGA memberships will go DOWN


So I wonder If i decided to play in am worlds and wore a Nicotine patch would I get kicked out to.

The way I see it is, if you can't use a drug like alcohol to calm yourself during a tournament and you can't take a 420 break to take the edge off your tournament jitters, why should an unfair advantage be given to cigarette smokers who receive this same type of calming effect from the drug they take?

This is from the clarification of the no smoking at worlds policy from the PDGA.

"The PDGA is initiating a number of programs to develop and grow youth and student participation in our sport. This policy will help strengthen our image in the eyes of the public, and allow us to further enhance the experience of competitive disc golf for all participants."

Really?

If we are so concerned about the youth and student participation in our sport why do we allow UNCOMMON BREWERS to be a sponsor at Pro Worlds this year?

How is featuring an alcohol sponsor at Worlds consistent with banning smoking to help develop and grow youth and student participation in our sport?

If the PDGA is serious about developing and growing youth and student participation in our sport they need to immediately drop this alcohol sponsor from our World Championships.

Right. The "sin taxes" on items like cigarettes and alcohol don't even begin to cover the costs that the consumption of those products incurs.

it would seem as tho on the surface but what happens when all those smokers live to be 100 instead of 80 how much is 20 years of social security X the # of smokers in the US o and all this SS will be paid with no sin tax id think we would come up short

Your error, Mr. Kenny, lies in your attempt to find a policy rationale in a PDGA Board decision. It should be sufficient for them to say that they banned smoking to stop the elephants from stampeding at either Worlds. At least that way they could look back on the elephant stampede free Worldses and congratulate themselves for a job well done. Ultimately we all know that they banned smoking because some of the Board members do not like to play with smokers and some would like to gain a competitive advantage on certain smokers, and they comprised the majority of the Board.

I wish I could disagree but I can't.

So I wonder If i decided to play in am worlds and wore a Nicotine patch would I get kicked out to.

No you would not. That and niccorette gum are encouraged.

Your error, Mr. Kenny, lies in your attempt to find a policy rationale in a PDGA Board decision. It should be sufficient for them to say that they banned smoking to stop the elephants from stampeding at either Worlds. At least that way they could look back on the elephant stampede free Worldses and congratulate themselves for a job well done. Ultimately we all know that they banned smoking because some of the Board members do not like to play with smokers and some would like to gain a competitive advantage on certain smokers, and they comprised the majority of the Board.

Where's the "like" button?

Brakel's theory doesn't really hold up. Juliana rarely plays tournaments, Feldberg smokes, Leiviska didn't vote, Decker voted against the ban, Andrews is an Am who only plays a few events. That leaves Avery and Nez who might have the opinion Brakel is proposing. Not exactly a majority who might think that way.

Brakel's theory doesn't really hold up. Juliana rarely plays tournaments, Feldberg smokes, Leiviska didn't vote, Decker voted against the ban, Andrews is an Am who only plays a few events. That leaves Avery and Nez who might have the opinion Brakel is proposing. Not exactly a majority who might think that way.


So your saying that 1 out of 7 Board members smokes? and that represents the smokers that play? Why not do a poll to see what the response is from the members? And as far as image is concerned. I would say that if you want to clean up PDGA image then police the illegal drugs first. I mean come on.. You ban a legal drug for a image but at all most every tournament I have been to.. you can walk around before or after and see or smell people smoking an illegal drug, much less drinking. What image does this say to our youth? It is ok to do things illegal as long as you are not actively playing in a tournament? Oh, that's right PDGA can only press their agenda during a tournament while you actually are playing but someone can get there fix prior to or after a round?

And I have seen nothing to address the fact that if a round starts to run long.. lets say 3 to 4 hours what then? Is it fair that a smoker whom now becomes extremely edge and flies off the handle over something minor because of this ban is fair? It is akin to taking a person strung out on crack and throwing them in a room that is locked. Wanna watch someone freak out.. there you go. This is not a fair rule and should never be added.

I agree that smokers should be courteous to non-smokers when they are around them. But when the rule gives an unfair advantage to a group of people in the tournament then the rule should not be applied. A smoker that has a cigarette during a round does not make them calmer than a non-smoker it just keeps them on the same calm they are use to. Pot would be closer to something that puts you in a "ZONE"

Why not add to the rule... if you are a smoker in a non-smoking event you get to move 10 feet closer to the basket when putting.. This would at least address the unbalanced approach this rule has.

There is no easy way to ban smoking in a tournament and keep it fair and if it was an indoor sport I would tend to agree for health reasons. But, to take a wonderful sport and put loads of rules on it not only makes the sport disliked it will lower the attendance of the group you hamper.

So I ask the board. Get your numbers first before just throwing out some rule because the board "feels" it is a good idea.

What is the % of PDGA members that smoke vs. not?

What is the % of PDGA members that want to ban smoking?

These would be interesting numbers to see. And at least they would have something to go with. Instead of a one sided board voting on such a critical issue as this.

They must be taking idea's from our government. Just do what you want without actually finding out what your constituents want or think. :mad:


True politicians in the making.

I'm guessing there are more members that drink alcohol to some extent than smoke and yet there's been a ban on drinking during rounds since the PDGA started even in parks where it's legal. Where's the outcry to "Bring back drinking!" In fact, drinking a bit of red wine daily is considered heart healthy. But is it necessary to do it during a round? Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's the right thing to do during a structured competition governed by many other rules that also modify or restrict a player's behavior during a round. Restricting smoking is little different from restricting players from all throwing at the same time. Both activities distract or interfere with other players' performances and make the sport look less professional.

Restricting smoking is little different from restricting players from all throwing at the same time. Both activities distract or interfere with other players' performances and make the sport look less professional.

The PGA doesnt seem to agree with that on smoking. Why the ban on chewing then? That doesn't interfere with anybody.

What makes disc golf seem unprofessional is all the pot smoking before, during and after the rounds. When people hear if disc golf the first thing that comes to mind is pot smoking hippies.

What makes disc golf seem unprofessional is all the pot smoking before, during and after the rounds. When people hear if disc golf the first thing that comes to mind is pot smoking hippies.

How come there's never an initiative "to develop and grow pot smoking hippie participation" in anything? I mean if the sport is already full of PSH why not reach out to them? It seems a much easier task than driving out all the PSH and then trying to replace them with people who aren't interested in the sport.

maybe the board needs to take some of the pdga moneys and drug test all competitors who cash at a pdga major.
then move the prizes down the ladder to the clean players.
i would bet the first clean players are either drinkers or smokers or both.
but i seriously doubt that the majority of cashing players could pass a drug test.

maybe the board needs to take some of the pdga moneys and drug test all competitors who cash at a pdga major.
then move the prizes down the ladder to the clean players.
i would bet the first clean players are either drinkers or smokers or both.
but i seriously doubt that the majority of cashing players could pass a drug test.

Bring it! :-)

I and many others over 45 might fail an Olympic level drug test because our heart medication, on the banned list, helps slow down heart rates for better performance in events like the biathlon. It probably helps us be less tense for putting in our sport.

Your error, Mr. Kenny, lies in your attempt to find a policy rationale in a PDGA Board decision. It should be sufficient for them to say that they banned smoking to stop the elephants from stampeding at either Worlds. At least that way they could look back on the elephant stampede free Worldses and congratulate themselves for a job well done. Ultimately we all know that they banned smoking because some of the Board members do not like to play with smokers and some would like to gain a competitive advantage on certain smokers, and they comprised the majority of the Board.Brakel's theory doesn't really hold up. Juliana rarely plays tournaments, Feldberg smokes, Leiviska didn't vote, Decker voted against the ban, Andrews is an Am who only plays a few events. That leaves Avery and Nez who might have the opinion Brakel is proposing. Not exactly a majority who might think that way.

Wow, I'm surprised someone even gave Brakel's "theory" the time of day. Having once been a member of the the PDGA Board and then quit, (like Shive did) such vitriolic comments they make about the PDGA Board just come off like sour grapes.

I and many others over 45 might fail an Olympic level drug test because our heart medication, on the banned list, helps slow down heart rates for better performance in events like the biathlon. It probably helps us be less tense for putting in our sport.

Apples and oranges Chuck, you know what drugs we're talking about.

Also, are you saying you're cheating by using your heart meds?...sarcasm, I'd rather you keep taking them.

I'll keep taking the meds which may help my putting but don't seem to help with any other throw. Of course, second hand smoke of any kind isn't good for anyone, especially those with heart conditions...

most competitive test dont fail a prescribed drug, unless it is performance enhancing.
a player that take steroids for asthma is ok in my book.
a player who smokes weed before a tourny to get their head right is not.
or during the lunch break.
i dont expect the board to ever open the hidden books to the general public or potential sponsors, that might hurt disc golf reputation.
i know players with children who wont bring their families to tourneys because of the illeagal activities rampant in the parking lot.


does any body out there reading this thread know how to poll the general population of members how they feel about the curent boards heavy handedness on this issue?


is there anybody else sick of the boards shenanigans?


peter shive is running for a position on the board, with some very eye opening thaughts.

Send this link around and I will post the results every so often....

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FVPPR5F

Send this link around and I will post the results every so often....

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FVPPR5F


After several hours, the survey is split pretty evenly...

1. Do you agree with the PDGA on the smoking ban at Am Worlds?
answered question 26

Yes 46.2% 12
No 53.8% 14

2. Should the PDGA have that much control over these decisions without the membership approval?
answered question 26

Yes 42.3% 11
No 57.7% 15

After several hours, the survey is split pretty evenly...

1. Do you agree with the PDGA on the smoking ban at Am Worlds?
answered question 26

Yes 46.2% 12
No 53.8% 14

2. Should the PDGA have that much control over these decisions without the membership approval?
answered question 26

Yes 42.3% 11
No 57.7% 15

In my Campaign and Elections classes we had it pounded into our heads that a splits more than 52-48 isn't what we should call "even". The results look about right to me as I have no problem with the Pro Worlds ban (except prohibiting chewing and E-Cigs) although I feel without a better reason the AM Worlds ban is dumb.

Just makes me remember 04' Worlds in Iowa when some of the <19 kids were smoking on and off the course.

Send this link around and I will post the results every so often....

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FVPPR5F


Update:

1. Do you agree with the PDGA on the smoking ban at Am Worlds?
answered - 51

Yes 43% (22)
No 57% (29)

2. Should the PDGA have that much control over these decisions without the membership approval?
answered - 51

Yes 32% (16)
No 68% (34)

schick that is a site ive never heard of .
thanks for the help.
i am not computer literate.
some times i can type a little and most the time i prayfor the results to be what i intended.

Unfortunately, this is a poll where those who oppose the ban are more likely to seek out and respond to the poll.

Unfortunately, this is a poll where those who oppose the ban are more likely to seek out and respond to the poll.

Agreed but then some like me may not vote at all due to this fact....and therefore it isn't as skewed as you think....

Maybe the PDGA should have polled the membership in the 1st place....but they didn't and like Mikey said before he was banned (without a clear violation) the PDGA is less relevant each and every day.

I would still bet most members disagree with this move along with others the BoD took up without even seeing how the members felt.

When is the Executive Director election again? Or when is the term up?

Unfortunately, this is a poll where those who oppose the ban are more likely to seek out and respond to the poll.

Well at the moment (after 56 responses), 46.4% do agree with the PDGA's decision to ban smoking and 53.6% do not.

It seems more people disagree with the PDGA having the authority to do this without membership approval....65% saying they should not have that kind of control.

Of course this is a VERY generic poll and can easily be swayed if people log in to multiple computers to do this. I just thought it would be interesting to see how it panned out. I am not a smoker, never have been, but I do think this was a bit harsh to do mid year after people already registered. I also think the lack of communication has really upset a lot of people as well.

Well at the moment (after 56 responses), 46.4% do agree with the PDGA's decision to ban smoking and 53.6% do not.

It seems more people disagree with the PDGA having the authority to do this without membership approval....65% saying they should not have that kind of control.

Of course this is a VERY generic poll and can easily be swayed if people log in to multiple computers to do this. I just thought it would be interesting to see how it panned out. I am not a smoker, never have been, but I do think this was a bit harsh to do mid year after people already registered. I also think the lack of communication has really upset a lot of people as well.

Well Screamed Mr. Knight....and no chairs had to fly.

Unfortunately, this is a poll where those who oppose the ban are more likely to seek out and respond to the poll.

So Chuck, how would you suggest the poll be conducted?

Not sure it's a poll that's necessary or useful at this point. The Smoking ban for Worlds was always stated by the Board as a test. We don't have the results of the test yet. So any poll if it appears necessary should be done after the test is completed. The PDGA regularly polls attendees after Worlds so this could just be part of that process.

Smoking was already banned at Pro Worlds due to fire conditions.

There were ~100 people or so who had already registered for Am Worlds when the smoking ban was 'discovered' in the Board Minutes and made public. Of those, I question how many are likely to withdraw from the tournament because of the smoking ban. Alternatively, how many will need to withdraw because they can't go 2.5-3.5 hours without a smoke, or choose not to utilize a patch or nicotine gum. Once the ban was announced, how many golfers will now choose not to attend because of it, and will their spots be simply replaced by others, thus taking away absolutely zilch from the tournament?

Our elected Board of Directors made a decision to test out a tournament procedure at ONE TOURNAMENT and one tournament only. And people are crying bloody murder because they didn't poll the membership? Puh-lease. If the BoD ignores what appears to be a significant outcry and decides to extend the ban to NTs, Supertours, and/or all PDGA-sanctioned events and without polling the membership, then folks have a right to be upset. Until then, this is now yet another flavor of the month for the typical cast of PDGA DISCussion Board whiners to use as an excuse to rabble rouse.

Yes, the communication was poor and I join the legions of many who are surely disappointed by that facet. But all this other brouhaha is a joke. That's just like, my opinion, man.

what are they testing?if there testing public opinion then all the griping here is test results dont hate on the testies!! :)

Comparing the original motion (a smoking ban) with the newest clarified statement:

"At this year�s Spring Summit, the PDGA Board of Directors clarified details of the smoking policy in place for the 2011 PDGA Pro World Championships in Santa Cruz CA and the 2011 PDGA Amateur & Junior World Championships in Rochester NY.

* E-cigarettes and chewing tobacco are not allowed under the smoking policy
* Open and visual possession of any product banned under the smoking policy will be treated as a courtesy violation, and violators will be asked to put away the product until after the cards are turned in. Repeated offenses will be handled per 801.01F

The PDGA is initiating a number of programs to develop and grow youth and student participation in our sport. This policy will help strengthen our image in the eyes of the public, and allow us to further enhance the experience of competitive disc golf for all participants.

We will evaluate the effects of this policy for the future at our 2011 Fall Summit, and we welcome your comments and suggestions."

I didn't find the minutes of the spring summit yet, but despite the dialog on this forum it seems that the Board made the policy even more restrictive and less enforceable. Their statement said they "clarified details of the smoking policy". So that may mean that policy was created. If so, wouldn't that require a motion and vote? The original objection was smoking. Now it is a more restricted tobacco ban. However, patches and gum seem to be OK.

There are visual cues if a player has "a pinch between cheek and gum". Is chewing tobacco different than snuff? Even if they don't spit, is that a violation? This just seems to be getting crazy and I don't understand how it will benefit the organization despite the rational given.

you've fallen into the trap. congratulations TexBook (trust me, the irony of textbooks and texas is not lost on me) you've just fallen into one of the first of many traps designed to obfuscate the average disc golf reader. being honest and inquisitive is not really welcome here. let this stand as your first warning. cheers!

Unfortunately, this is a poll where those who oppose the ban are more likely to seek out and respond to the poll.

says who chuck? having been and am still being on both sides of this particular fence...

it's been my experience at least, that non-smokers are much more inclined to make their opinions known to others concerning their opinions on smoking. i've often experienced the angry non-smoker--the joyous, cheer-leading, pro-smoking enthusiast? That's an animal i've yet to witness. keep trying. this poll represents the perfect opportunity for non-smokers to make their self-rightous indignation known to all--and the results clearly indicate as such.

"...being honest and inquisitive is not really welcome here. let this stand as your first warning. cheers!"

Good one dscmn! This policy effects me in no way, but I'm intrigued by how it is playing out.

Waaaay off topic: My wife grew up on Lehigh Pkwy South, right across the street from the course. We will be visiting June9-15 and I hope to make your weeklies at LLP, Nox, and Jordan Creek. I got Jason's contact and will call him. Maybe I'll see you there.

parkway south is where i live. my contact can be found in the course directory under the nockamixon disc golf course. or pm me.

Send this link around and I will post the results every so often....

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FVPPR5F

Update:

1. Do you agree with the PDGA on the smoking ban at Am Worlds?
answered - 88

Yes 42% (37)
No 58% (51)

2. Should the PDGA have that much control over these decisions without the membership approval?
answered - 87

Yes 30% (26)
No 70% (61)

says who chuck? having been and am still being on both sides of this particular fence...
There will likely be more smokers motivated to respond than even the activist non-smokers who are only a small subset of the many non-smokers who may agree with the policy being tested not caring enough to repond. Regardless, my opinion is no more valid than the current poll from the standpoint of getting a true random sample of member opinions. That's the failure in the poll in general along with the timing coming before versus after the events.

There will likely be more smokers motivated to respond than even the activist non-smokers who are only a small subset of the many non-smokers who may agree with the policy being tested not caring enough to repond. Regardless, my opinion is no more valid than the current poll from the standpoint of getting a true random sample of member opinions. That's the failure in the poll in general along with the timing coming before versus after the events.

smoker: hmmm, let's see. respond to this poll or go have a butt? have a butt.

non-smoker: hmmm, let's see. how can i make the rest of the world know about my non-smoking awesomeness? let the world know about my non-smoking awesomeness.

clearly, you are mistaken chuck.

Doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong about my estimate of who will respond. The poll itself is flawed due to timing and lack of random respondees.

i know chuck. i'm glad you admit that neither opinion is worth a lick here. i just thought that in your previous post that you were trying to say that it was biased toward more smokers responding to the poll. and, based on the poll and where it is, that's silly.

I do believe it to more likely be true based on studies of the typical flaws in polling techniques. But I can't prove it and it doesn't matter at this point.

Judging by the responses and my general intuition, the poll seems fairly reasonable. Most smokers aren't interested in spreading the cause of smoking. And most smokers can handle such a ban, even if they do so holding their noses.

"I have a dream, that one day the world will light up together. That what will matter most is not the color of one's filter but the level of tar in each individual cigarette's character."

god, those were the days. fighting the good fight.

There aren't a lot of activist smokers out there. And, I'll tell you another secret. They've probably heard and probably know that smoking is bad for their health. They don't need the pdga dictating what they do while they pay the pdga money for the privilege of playing in one of their sanctioned tournaments. This is classic hubris and organizational overreach. I'd be willing to bet that a percentage of the folks voting against the pdga here are voting against that and not FOR smoking.

chuck you keep saying this is a "test" what exactly are they testing?

A "test" meaning the Board wants to see all of the ramifications surrounding the two high profile events actually owned and co-run by the PDGA and not all of 1000+ events simply sanctioned by the PDGA. I believe they also knew that a smoking ban would already need to be enforced at Pro Worlds due to local and state ordinances typically in force annually that time of year. Their slip up was not getting this test message out to members before registration opened, not the ban itself, at least for Pro Worlds.

my opinion is they should have let any new or repaying member know of the decision at that time this year.
then they could have seen the results of their test immediately with the potential member back lash happening at the membership level, or the lack of renewal or decision not to become a paying member of a gestapo recreational organization.

am worlds registration is now open and the registered player total is at just over 200 players.
i guess the economy is slower than i thought.
or maybe the bod has had more effect than anticipated.
for new yorks sake i hope there is a larger turnout than previous years, but it isnt looking promising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schick
Send this link around and I will post the results every so often....

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FVPPR5F

Update:

1. Do you agree with the PDGA on the smoking ban at Am Worlds?
answered - 95

Yes 43.2% (41)
No 56.8% (54)

2. Should the PDGA have that much control over these decisions without the membership approval?
answered - 94

Yes 32% (30)
No 68% (64)

the poll appears to be showing what i expected.
with nearly 100 answers the pdga has made a mistake in their representation of the players

I am not sure how I feel about the Non-Smoking Policy. as of May 31st I will be smoke fee for one year. This year for the First time in 6 trips to the World Championship. Andrews Grandmother (know has never seen him Play disc Golf) is planning to attend with us. She still smokes. how will this affect her? can she smoke at the park as a spectator?

There are two obvious reasons why Am Worlds might be lightly attended besides the no smoking rule. If Am Worlds were being held on lame courses in central Ohio, then we might be able to conclude something about the no smoking rule.

am worlds registration is now open and the registered player total is at just over 200 players.
i guess the economy is slower than i thought.
or maybe the bod has had more effect than anticipated.
for new yorks sake i hope there is a larger turnout than previous years, but it isnt looking promising.

I hate to suggest actually bothering the PDGA Office (and taking them away from more important things) to look up just how many of last year's 504 competitors had registered a full two months before Am Worlds, or how many of Kansas City's 595 amateur competitors had registered a full two months before Am Worlds, but I'm willing to bet that it's a similar number as the 224 which Rochester currently has.

Am Worlds registration comes to an end on July 15th, a full 1 1/2 months from now...don't be surprised when all is said and done that your theory holds no water.

there is still time for the open enrollment to help fill.
for the hosts i hope there is a full field

I think it just has to do with the image the PDGA wants to promote. It gets back to a roots issue of the sport. The sport was founded by people that like to party and many of whom used drugs and smoke. It was founded by rebels to a certain degree. Would you call the founders of this great game closed minded conservatives or open minded people of the counter culture? As the sport has grown it seems it has spent immense energy casting off this image as a bunch of beer loving stoners walking around the woods. To keep moving in that direction of being recognized as a serious professional sport there is no choice, smoking has to go. What other professional sport allows smoking at professional competitions? Does curling? What about darts? No. Name one Olympic event you watch that allows smoking? Does the PGA?

I wish the sport would grasp it's roots and just say f' it, we're allowing smoking, drinking, and anything that is legal in the state the tournament is held in. Like really grasp the roots and rebellious nature of the games founders. But, reality is different, and this sport is growing and the people winning the big tournaments are athletes that deserve more recognition as professional athletes. Owning a company that has sponsored many events and someone that loves the game I debate the sponsorship every-time I do it because of the image disc golf has; a bunch of stoned drunk smokers wondering around the woods. Do I want potential clients thinking of my business as a bunch of drunk stoners walking around the woods? Does that help my businesses image, to promote a sport where the best athletes huff cigs in front of children? I play the game, but also as a business owner one needs to use great caution in what they sponsor; your business takes on the image of what it sponsors. And with business partners who have lost family members to lung cancer I fear them one day seeing an actual event. My business would no longer be sponsoring events if that happened.

I have my 3 main points for why it has to go below:

1. Sponsorhip. I summed this up right above. I've been playing since 86 and couldn't get my partners to sponsor an event if they saw all the smoking.

2. Youth involvement. Does a parent want to involve there kid in a sport where over 50% of the people in a PROFESSIONAL tournament are smoking? Kids will look up to the players they see kicking ***, and if they see those players huffing cigs all tournament long they are more likely to smoke themselves.

3. Performance enhancing. On the first page of this discussion a player writes how smoking helps him when things aren't going well. It is scientifically proven/debated nicotine relaxes it's addicts. But as I point even in this discussion people have written how important smoking is to their game. For those that don't smoke, there is no magic drug to turn too when things aren't going so well to calm down, you have to ride it out with no crutches. The point of rules is to make things as fair as we can. Allowing smoking gives players who smoke a path to relaxation non-smokers don't have. If I want that same relaxing drug when I play I have to risk addiction to one of the biggest killers on earth.

Actually I am pretty sure they PGA does allow smoking. I recall seeing John Daly smoking and pounding diet cokes in tourneys over the years.

Sat in on a wonderful HOA meeting yesterday with the CMPD (Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Dept.) and a representative from the drug task force to address some issues we are having at the park across the street from me (Kilborne). An interesting piece of information came out of the bag from the CMPD drug task force rep, when he said that they are already preparing for the 2012 Worlds and will be "actively searching for drugs." The officer also cited a recent arrest where 78 pounds of marijuana was found hidden in a disc golfers car, and showed a picture of the SUV in the Winthrop pond and identified that it was because the people driving the car were "high" and that marijuana was found floating in it when the car was recovered. I wonder how many people will bail on Charlotte 2012 when they see drug dogs at the courses.

Cigarettes are absolutely the biggest issue with disc golf cleaning its reputation, lol!

Is the image of disc golf that of legal smokers or illegal smokers? What does one get more feed- back on when you mention disc golf? Is it cigarette smoke or pot smoking? I have been accused of pot smoking because I play disc golf and never touched the stuff in my life. I can understand wanting your professionals to be set to higher standards, but like others I have seen top pros show up to events with bloodshot eyes.

No, I did not agree with the board announcing it after invites and registration opened, it should have been done sometime before that. The way this was brought about is probably annoys me the most. I do think e-cigs should be allowed and would help provide a semi-happy medium, and might even help some to quit.

If at am worlds they made it no smoking if juniors were on the same course that might be more acceptable for some. These same kids will watch some adults smoke (and drink) shortly after cards are turned in a more central area than spread out on the course. If they are all masters divisions on a different course it wouldn’t affect any Jrs.

I do smoke and know I should stop and hopefully will someday, but not because the BOD decided it was best. I always try to be respectful of others when I do smoke and stay downwind of nonsmokers and have moved my chair many times without being asked.
I have always told someone who is trying to kick any bad habit that I fully support them and wish them luck. I don’t tell them they have to stop.

If it is a test what are they testing for? to see if less people attend? Smokers scores going up? Maybe Jrs resisting the temptation to smoke? Sponsors following groups around? People saying we look better without smoking on the course? Tell us what are they are trying to find out? What are the guide lines for the test and results you are looking for? Just saying its a "test" does not inform anyone on what going on and only makes it look worse on the BOD's part.

If getting rid of the legal smokers is the image you are after, maybe you should not allow smokers to become PDGA members. Do I like that we have a hippy pot smoker image NO. Do I try to change non disc golfers perspective of it yes. (insert rant here) But what is next? Maybe we should all have matching haircuts, Be a certain weight and body type, because we don’t fit the "image"? (end rant).

Part of what makes disc golf so unique is the individuals that play it and from all walks of life and accepting them as fellow disc golfers. That is what should be embraced! I understand wanting disc golf to look professional and an athletic sport but I think the majority of us are people looking for something to do and play involving some (and sometimes limited) athletic skills. We chose to do this at a style all our own and not as one mass group.

new pdga slogan..... out with "its in the air"..in with "making role models out of normal people worldwide"

So the number of contestants in past Am Worlds were:

2005: 379
2006: 545
2007: 530
2008: 568
2009: 595
2010: 504

2011: 454 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/16465)

I dunno. Glass half empty folks might say that this number is down because of the smoking ban, but glass half full folks might point out that this year's attendance is only three dozen short of the average of 490 for non-combined Worlds (2005-2007, 2010) and in some tough economic times. :confused:

How about the second least number of PDGA members within 500 miles? Second only to Flagstaff in 2005 with the least...