I need to vent..............................I am tired of these touring pros coming to events with bad attitudes. They are living the disc golf life that the majority of regular golfers would love to live. They have plenty of bad things to say about an event, but have no constructive criticism. Kind a like a baby with a full diaper. Most T.D.S has real jobs, families and responsibilities. We take out our leisure time to organize events for these disc golf GREATS to live out THIER dreams, to only hear later how bad a TD/event may have done. When will the sponsors of these players start to hold their teams accountable for their actions? I have had the same job for 23 years, raised 4 kids, play at a 1000 rated level, and ran plenty of events. When I hear a traveling player complain about a hole design, payout, or just general bUtching. I just want to call their sponsor and inform them of the CHILD represent the name of their company. The general response is they should run an event to know what it takes to run an event...............well I would not attend an event that a cry baby would organize..........I have been out of daycare since I was 3 years old.<O:p</O:p
I hope this gets to some of these babies...and these babies want to confront me.....JUST DO IT in person. As a Texas T.D. I have the right to deny entry to an event, please try me!<O:p</O:p

Complaining about crybaby pros who cry is like complaining about cheater pros who throw leaping putts. If you don't post links to the video, they'll never change their behavior. :D And, when did they change the rule on how long you can goof around before you finally throw your putt? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksb3x5rBJfE&NR=1

Let's hear some names, Vinnie.

there sponsors know their names.....I made sure of that!
I may not be able to give out un-sportman like warnings......but I can sure let the sponsors know how the face of their company is a crybaby.
I encourage others to do so, if a PRO act anything less than a PRO then call thier sponsors. If Tiger can be dropped then these guys don't have a chance

Hey Vinnie, I don't have any sponsors. Can I be on the list?

oh shut your pie hole!

Hey Vinnie, I don't have any sponsors. Can I be on the list?

You were our hope, and look at how that turned out. :)

Nail on the head.
At our A tier we heard complaints about branches on trees. No they were
not in the fairway. The best was someone that missed the fairway and
didn't have a clear shot to the basket and said "you guys need to
clean this up". A local player that doesn't take any crap that was playing
with him said "you should throw a better shot and hit the gap"
Too funny.

James, be a better father. I'm still trying to play good for our little hippie city.

My random comments on the subject:

- I think most complaining is waaay misunderstood. Everyone needs to release their own frustration from their poor shot. For example, my way of coping is placing blame on something else. "This hole sucks" "Why is that tree there" "Why did that car move?" when in reality I'm thinking "That was a horrid shot Robert." It's just the way I mentally deal with my bad shot and it allows me to move on a few seconds later.

Saying all that, that has nothing to do with complaining about an event, however, as 99% of TD's and events don't need a word said about them. When they do, players really need to present a solution. Example, this past weekend I threw in an area that was unclear rather it was OB or not because an OB line stopped, but had it continued, you could argue I was OB. I got the call as in from the group and then approached the TD about the situation. I said simply what happened and it wasn't clear and next year simply dropping 10 flags beyond the line of where he wanted the OB to be at would be a lot more clear than it was this year.

Most bad events have one thing in common. Inconsistency and things not being clear. Bad events will start to filter away when the PDGA begins denying sanctioning of events. What makes the PGA tour so exclusive is the amount of demand there is to host a PGA event. There is 0 demand to host a PDGA event. All it takes is someone with the ability to pass an open book test and the desire to do so.

In reality, 5 - 10 people make a living off the sport. There are some people who tour because they have different financial situations that allow them to not need to work. In reality, I would say only Kenny, Barry, Dave, and Nikko are making a good living playing. And even more so, only three people have ever made a career off disc golf and they are Kenny, Dave Dunipace and Harold Duval. And two of them came from not playing. Saying all this because half of the people on tour have NO business being on tour. What does this lead to - blame being put elsewhere.

I don't know how anyone expects anything to change in regards to things like this when .0000001% of the disc golf world makes up roughly 40% of the group that runs the sport.

The "childishness" you speak really is nothing different than we see in any sport or really any facet of life.

Our sport is self officiated. Until players begin stepping up and calling infractions, such as courtesy warnings, this won't stop. Want to make a guy stop foot faulting? Call him on a foot fault over and over. Either he will learn or he will quit. Either way, he stops foot faulting.

"PDGA begins denying sanctioning of event"

this will never happen. sactioning means $$ in the PDGA pocket

You know what im sick of? All the excuses TDs give for reasons the event was not run well. I have a full time job. I have kids. My volunteers didnt show up when they said they would. Well I have an answer to all of that. If you have kids and a full time job and volunteers you cant count on. Maybe you should not be running a tournament. And if you are, maybe it should be a little B or C Tier not an NT or a SuperTour. There are plenty of people willing to run events. The notion that we will soon run out of TDs is just ridiculous.

Im also very sick of spending my time and money to show up early to an event. Then when I arrive to practice no one can tell me which tees we are playing or when we are playing them. I then try and practice as best I can only to have new tees and Mandos painted the morning of the event when the event has been on the schedule for months.

I just wish there was some STANDARD or REQUIREMENTS for running events. Im not talking about B and C Tiers. I expect less work to be put into those types of events. The events that are upsetting me are the NTs and SuperTours im playing that look and feel like they are B Tiers at best.

Something needs to be done and its NOT the top pros running events. Its their job to play and its the TDs job to run a quality even whether they are a volunteer or making money off of the AM side of the tourney!

You know what im sick of? All the excuses TDs give for reasons the event was not run well. I have a full time job. I have kids. My volunteers didnt show up when they said they would. Well I have an answer to all of that. If you have kids and a full time job and volunteers you cant count on. Maybe you should not be running a tournament. And if you are, maybe it should be a little B or C Tier not an NT or a SuperTour. There are plenty of people willing to run events. The notion that we will soon run out of TDs is just ridiculous.

Im also very sick of spending my time and money to show up early to an event. Then when I arrive to practice no one can tell me which tees we are playing or when we are playing them. I then try and practice as best I can only to have new tees and Mandos painted the morning of the event when the event has been on the schedule for months.

I just wish there was some STANDARD or REQUIREMENTS for running events. Im not talking about B and C Tiers. I expect less work to be put into those types of events. The events that are upsetting me are the NTs and SuperTours im playing that look and feel like they are B Tiers at best.

Something needs to be done and its NOT the top pros running events. Its their job to play and its the TDs job to run a quality even whether they are a volunteer or making money off of the AM side of the tourney!


I bet you run the best events! Which are they so I can make some ?

I don't run events I play them. And when I show up I'm giving my all because that is my job. I just expect the TDs to do the same when they run an event because that is their job.

Having run plenty of tournaments I hereby yield my rant time to Mills.

Does that work for you Chase?

I think players have every right to complain about poor service. Do I have to have worked in the kitchen somewhere to complain about not having actually ordered a Pony Burger and straight fries? I ordered the Macho Burger and Cajun Fries, dammit! Sheesh.

Well, I did work in the kitchen for three years, so maybe I'm o.k. anyway.

I don't think that argument holds as much water in this case. I shouldn't have to have been a film maker at some point in my life to complain about what I feel is a poorly made movie. I shouldn't have needed to be an NFL owner or coach if I don't like the quality of my team's play on the football field. I shouldn't have needed to be a restaurant owner to complain about a poor meal served. These are professional, for-profit services.

However, our sport is so small and relies almost so entirely on volunteer labor from people with day jobs that disc golfers who never run tournaments shouldn't be publicly griping about the quality of tournaments or lack thereof. It's practically an epidemic in this sport that the folks who typically contribute absolutely the least to the sport do the loudest whining.

And typically, these complaints are about the most trivial of matters such as, for example, branches sticking out on the sides of a 50-ft. wide fairway...when there is absolutely nothing in the way of the 45+ feet which defines the middle of the fairway, where they could/should have thrown their shot. Bottom line is that releasing your own frustration from poor shots and a bad day on the links by audibly placing blame on the course or TD/staff so much so that this feedback affects other players and/or gets back to the TD is not an acceptable outlet. It also gives touring pros a bad reputation, and it has been that way since the Winnicrew in the late 90s.

I don't run events I play them. And when I show up I'm giving my all because that is my job. I just expect the TDs to do the same when they run an event because that is their job.

So this is your job, so you are a PRO trying to make a living as a disc golf professional. Then please tell me why you have played in a couple of AMATEUR events this year and last year. Have you not been taking cash since 2007?

Just curious...

By the way, I am one of those TD's who has a full time job and I don't have the time to wipe your snotty little nose everytime that it runs because you have your mouth open.

C'mon Mills....I can tell you first hand no one is lining up to run the Brent Hambrick NT year after year. I also see Paul Jay spending five days a week working on sponsors, course maintenance, logos, disc orders, pdga/website updates, getting golf carts, gathering raffle items, etc for months on end before the event. I can assure you other cities go through the same thing and I would bet the farm there are not people fighting to be the T.D. Not sure how the same people do it year after year, but I am very thankful!

I am sure some of your complaints are legit, but the moral of the story on this thread is presenting those complaints with tact and respect. Not everything is going to be perfect at every event so focus on the positives as much as possible. I wish you luck out on the road, it's gotta be tough to make a comfortable living for you all. I hope you are doing this for fun and life experiences and not to build your 401k!

So this is your job, so you are a PRO trying to make a living as a disc golf professional. Then please tell me why you have played in a couple of AMATEUR events this year and last year. Have you not been taking cash since 2007?

Just curious...

By the way, I am one of those TD's who has a full time job and I don't have the time to wipe your snotty little nose everytime that it runs because you have your mouth open.

I played in 1 AM last year and my rating said that I could and it was on a vacation to visit my now girlfriend so I just wanted to relax and have fun. Then I played 1 AM event this year and that was to warm up for the pro event the next weekend. This is the first year since I accepted cash that I can fully devote my game to practice and become a professional. Life and bad fortune got in the way the past few years and I did not spend any time on my game until about 4 months ago when I move from MI to CA so I could play and practice year round.

By they way that was real mature to come on here and bash me for my play when trying to be a professional. Especially since you dont want to be bashed or called out if you run a poor event. And I do not need my nose to be wiped. I just need to start playing events that are run well. Im just stating facts its sounds like your the one who is being snotty.

Brad I am not complaining or speaking of the BHMO when I bring up these concerns because Paul does an amazing job and the courses are always in great shape and marked and ready for the event. Other tournaments should learn from the BHMO and try to attain the status that they have as an event. I praise good event and talk poorly about poor events. Just like I am happy when I play well and upset when I play poorly.

so which events are being ran poorly ??? if you dont call them out how will they know or did you do this at said event with the TD at the time something may have or could have been done about it !!!!!

I spoke with the TD at the event. Im not just on here saying things. Other spoke with the TD at the other event in question as well. I'm just sick of hearing the same old excuse. "We are just volunteers!!!" Just because your a volunteer or not making money does not give you an excuse to not do a good job.

Also if tournaments have AMs at the events they are making money whether they like to admit it or not. Its just facts. So they really are not volunteers. The people helping them run the event are volunteers.

in my experience td's are for the most part volunteers... if you have ams at a large event any $ made from the dreaded wholesale/retail am prize differential tends to wind up back in the kitty...being a volunteer is not an excuse for running a ****** event however...

Also if tournaments have AMs at the events they are making money whether they like to admit it or not. Its just facts. So they really are not volunteers. The people helping them run the event are volunteers.

Now you are either being very ignorant or all the TDs I help, myself included, are doing it wrong. I help at a lot of tournaments and none of the TDs make money running them. After all the sanctioning fees, insurance, course fees, printing, etc, if there is money left over the payouts are increased on both the am and pro side to balance it out. Has nothing to do with "admitting" anything.

If there are TDs out there making money I would like to see how they are doing it without decreasing the value of the tournament.

As far as people complaining about the tournament, if it is run bad, then talk to the TD about it. If they don't fix it then don't play their tournaments, there are plenty of other tourneys each week.

The ones that bother me are the people who complain about a course because the fairway is not big enough for them. I try to adjust my game to fit the course, I see a lot of "top pros" who think the course should be adjusted to fit their game. If you can hit a 15 foot wide gap 150 feet down the fairway and I can't you deserve to beat me. I'm not going to blame the course designer for not making the fairway big enough for me, just have to improve my game. The gap is the same for everyone and the better players seem to be near the top of all the tournaments no matter how tight the course is.

Our sport is self officiated. Until players begin stepping up and calling infractions, such as courtesy warnings, this won't stop. Want to make a guy stop foot faulting? Call him on a foot fault over and over. Either he will learn or he will quit. Either way, he stops foot faulting.

Robert, it isn't that simple. An example from a recent tourney. 1 day, 2 rounds. I was mentally locked in and very focused and shot a 1000 + round. 2nd round still locked in until a guy threw into the creek and tried to take a spot at the top of the bank, not within meter of the water. I questioned his spot, another player on the card who knew the rules even less jumped in to defend his buddy, big argument with me against 2 guys clueless about the rules, i finally walked away, allowed them to cheat vs escalating it to the TD, stepping aside, and ruining my round.

Too late, my focus was gone finished poorly barely holding on to a T2.

Should I have to sacrifice my focus, and thus my round, and tournament just to get this guy to play by the rules? I'm not willing to do that, unless of course I am already playing poorly and out of contention.

Your theory is good but the reality is the cost of doing it is often more than people are willing to pay.

When can I sign up for your tourney?

@SteveHardyman. 1st off a 15ft gap at 150 ft is NOT what top pros are talking about when complaining about bad course design. Most courses are designed and installed by AMs who confused difficult with unfair. I have been to TONS of courses where people said man that course is SUPER HARD but in all reality I get there to play and they are SUPER UNFAIR!!!

2nd. The TD is not cheapening the value of the event. He is getting paid for his efforts which he very well should get paid for if he runs the event well. If TDs are not making money on their events then that is their choice. BUT if they CHOOSE to put the money back into the event I dont want to hear them complain about how they did all this hard work for NOTHING when they could have made a grand or so if they are running a well attended event.

I am just really sick of people using the work VOLUNTEER as an excuse to not produce a quality event.

Now you are either being very ignorant or all the TDs I help, myself included, are doing it wrong. I help at a lot of tournaments and none of the TDs make money running them. After all the sanctioning fees, insurance, course fees, printing, etc, if there is money left over the payouts are increased on both the am and pro side to balance it out. Has nothing to do with "admitting" anything.

If there are TDs out there making money I would like to see how they are doing it without decreasing the value of the tournament.

As far as people complaining about the tournament, if it is run bad, then talk to the TD about it. If they don't fix it then don't play their tournaments, there are plenty of other tourneys each week.

The ones that bother me are the people who complain about a course because the fairway is not big enough for them. I try to adjust my game to fit the course, I see a lot of "top pros" who think the course should be adjusted to fit their game. If you can hit a 15 foot wide gap 150 feet down the fairway and I can't you deserve to beat me. I'm not going to blame the course designer for not making the fairway big enough for me, just have to improve my game. The gap is the same for everyone and the better players seem to be near the top of all the tournaments no matter how tight the course is.

Steve, it isn't that simple for you either. When I can't hit that gap at your tourney it isn't the TDs or designer's fault, it is obviously my disc's fault.

In all seriousness, if you are doing it wrong your only mistake is pouring everything you possibly can back into the tourney to make it an awesome experience for every one the players. From reasonable costs, an awesome location, breakfast, inexpensive lodging, a 3 day music festival on the grounds, food vendors, good payouts, a fun raffle with awesome prizes, an outstanding, interesting course, and good competition.

The tourney is Sakuna Matata and it is Memorial Day Weekend. You should play.

And in years of playing Steve's tourneys he has NEVER complained he did all that for nothing. You are way off base CB

When can I sign up for your tourney?


Soon! Just got to a few final touches and we should be up for registration in a few weeks or so.

Glad you are coming back!

I would like to suggest that we all consider how things would play out if the PDGA passed a ruling that all TD's of any event get paid for their service. As a long time player and TD myself I have never taken money for running events and I personally work on DG events and volunteer work every week and sacrifice hundreds of hours and dollars to help make everything run better. In fact, this is whats on my plate right now. Designed and installing a 9 hole course in Lebanon OH, 18 hole course in Goshen, Total renovation of Mt. Airy DGC, designing a new 9 hole and possibly an additional 18 at Mt.Airy, TD for our Global Event "Mt.Airy Centennial Open" in August, C-tier for the new course at Airy in June, Assistant to our annual Flying Pig Open in October, C-tier later this year at Goshen once its done, plus I help out with other local events as much as possible. I am also our Club's VP this year and our Course Pro coordinator and Volunteer Director. As a remodel carpenter for over 16 years I have the flexibility to manage my time for all these responsibilities but it also costs me thousands of dollars each year that could be in my pocket and allow me to travel as a touring pro and attempt to make a living at this sport we all love.

That being said, I know that no matter how hard we try to run tournaments and events as best as possible there is always some unexpected conflicts, mistakes, problems that will arise that are never intentional and sometimes unavoidable. Almost all the complaints I have heard have been from others that have no clue what it takes and how much is involved with running events. That doesn't mean they have no right to criticize but they should also put them selves in the TD's shoes for a week or two and actually experience what it takes. We have hundreds of choices of events any given weekend, if you had a bad time at one event, then simply don't play it next time.

As this sport evolves and changes, many of these issues will eventually be part of our history, until then lets all try and treat each other with respect and try to find solutions that benefit us all and help develop this great sport.

I've TD'd or Co-TD'd 12 events. Not nearly as many as some, but enough to how it feels to be on the receiving end of criticisms after putting in a lot of hard work. It's taken some personal work for me to be able to listen to critcism and suggestions without taking it personally and to separate out constructive comments from off-handed whining. I don't blame a competitive person that's had a less-than-stellar round from some grumbling. They always seem to get over it and often come back later with some kind words.

Regarding Mills' comments:

"Im also very sick of spending my time and money to show up early to an event. Then when I arrive to practice no one can tell me which tees we are playing or when we are playing them. I then try and practice as best I can only to have new tees and Mandos painted the morning of the event when the event has been on the schedule for months."

I wholeheartedly agree that this is a valid criticism and needs to be near the top of any tournament TD's event prep checklist. I'm a big fan of golf that is weighted heavily on the strategic element. It is very difficult to do adequate pre-tourney prep and develop a game plan without knowing the particulars of a course. Ideally, a course should be in tournament layout with maps and course rules available online through the tournament website at least two weeks prior to any big event.

None of this is to say, however, that there aren't certain behaviors by players that are "out-of-bounds".

@wsfaplau. I never said that Steve was complaining I was simply stating that IF he wanted to get paid for his efforts he could easily do so. I have never to my knowledge played one of Steve's events and from the sounds of it they are great and if by some random chance this season I get to play in one of them I will and then I can see for myself. I know how much work it takes to run an event. I have helped with some events in the past. I also know that when all that hard work is actually done the tournament turns out to be a great one. Im also not on here BASHING anyone. Just stating facts and my opinion.

Lets also get something else straight. Im not talking about B and C tiers but I do hold those to a certain standard as well. Im talking about A Tiers and NTs for the most part. Events that have been on the schedule for MONTHS and known about for MONTHS at which top players are going to be show up early to dial in the course.

Robert, it isn't that simple. An example from a recent tourney. 1 day, 2 rounds. I was mentally locked in and very focused and shot a 1000 + round. 2nd round still locked in until a guy threw into the creek and tried to take a spot at the top of the bank, not within meter of the water. I questioned his spot, another player on the card who knew the rules even less jumped in to defend his buddy, big argument with me against 2 guys clueless about the rules, i finally walked away, allowed them to cheat vs escalating it to the TD, stepping aside, and ruining my round.

Too late, my focus was gone finished poorly barely holding on to a T2.

Should I have to sacrifice my focus, and thus my round, and tournament just to get this guy to play by the rules? I'm not willing to do that, unless of course I am already playing poorly and out of contention.

Your theory is good but the reality is the cost of doing it is often more than people are willing to pay.



your fault as much as theirs... "ruining your round" by calling them out on appropriate rules is as much a reflection on your play as theirs... if your '"focus" can't take it, then don't complain about it after the fact...

Vinnie what's up!!! Just saw this thread, but I actually told someone at the same tournament,

Quote: "Yeah he was crying so much I actually wanted to call his sponsor!" unquote.

I'm sure we're talking about the same dude with too many tattoos since Vinnie & I played in the same group quite a bit recently.

However it's not the top pros who have let the pDGA pro tour rot. It's the poor leadership in Augusta. And if this forum was semi-free I could elaborate, but it's actually quite fascist and therefore I will have to keep my constructive criticism to myself, and now, the pDGA will once again not learn anything about how to improve itself.

The pro pDGA tour is dead. DEAD. Stick a fork in it. Toast.

Vinnie what's up!!! Just saw this thread, but I actually told someone at the same tournament,

Quote: "Yeah he was crying so much I actually wanted to call his sponsor!" unquote.

I'm sure we're talking about the same dude with too many tattoos since Vinnie & I played in the same group quite a bit recently.

However it's not the top pros who have let the pDGA pro tour rot. It's the poor leadership in Augusta. And if this forum was semi-free I could elaborate, but it's actually quite fascist and therefore I will have to keep my constructive criticism to myself, and now, the pDGA will once again not learn anything about how to improve itself.

The pro pDGA tour is dead. DEAD. Stick a fork in it. Toast.

I heard some whining from a player or two that are sponsored by the same company I am too.....wasn't the best 2nd impression...1st wasn't too good either.

I am loving the Packing the board thread Mikey (especially ur last post) but have been trying to avoid posting on this site so I will just read along.

I [..] have been trying to avoid posting on this site so I will just read along.

Please try harder.

I suggest the "traveling pros" who make a living playing disc golf work with the PDGA and let them approve the NT Tour and the courses used.

I also agree that we have too many watered down tournaments and it is up to the player to research the TD, past tournaments, and courses that will be played, before they commit.

Having said that, I have never seen a tantrum fit like Derek Billings threw during the Southern Kentucky Championships. Throwing rocks while pouting after a bad 1st round.....selling his entire bag after the tournament....breaking stuff over his knee during the tournament. He tried to ruin the tournament for everybody, and he will never be welcomed back here again. "Traveling Pros" that act like that obviously aren't mature enough to handle the pressures and challenges of a professional career. Derek isn't the only "traveling pro" like that out there, but maybe if we start calling them out, they will see how foolish they look, and how many lifelong personal relationships they missed out on.

maybe if we start calling them out, they will see how foolish they look, and how many lifelong personal relationships they missed out on.

Maybe incidents like this should be reported to the PDGA Discipline committee?

Maybe incidents like this should be reported to the PDGA Discipline committee?

now that is funny

now that is funny


Why is that funny?

Why is that funny?


What would they do...I have seen this crap for years....I have turned that crap in with nothing even being said...unless the local Td wants to be the jerk and Dq's they person, than nothing will happen

What would they do...I have seen this crap for years....I have turned that crap in with nothing even being said...unless the local Td wants to be the jerk and Dq's they person, than nothing will happen

As a member of the discipline committee for almost 5 years now, I can assure you that everything you posted is completely 100% false.

I tend to agree with mitchjustice....the tournament that Billings threw his temper tantrum was co-TD'd by a member of the PDGA discliplinary board.....and the tournament was hosted by a pdga rules committee member.

If a member of the Discipline Board doesn't enforce the courtesy rules, you start to wonder. Maybe he knew the Discipline Board wouldn't do anything....lol

The discipline board has very little power, and they don't follow up in a timely fashion in my experience. The PDGA wants the players to play and the TD's to keep running tournaments. You really have to mess up bad for the PDGA Discipline Board to actually suspend a player in my experience.....they are just titles without real power.

The PDGA does the best job they can with the limited staff available. They have us going in the right direction overall, it's the immature players out there holding us back......which why "children on tour" cracks me up:)

Instead of whining about payouts, added cash, or "unfair" courses......go to a school and show some kids how to have fun with discs....it's good for the soul!

Get over yourselves.

I tend to agree with mitchjustice....the tournament that Billings threw his temper tantrum was co-TD'd by a member of the PDGA discliplinary board.....and the tournament was hosted by a pdga rules committee member.

If a member of the Discipline Board doesn't enforce the courtesy rules, you start to wonder. Maybe he knew the Discipline Board wouldn't do anything....lol

The discipline board has very little power, and they don't follow up in a timely fashion in my experience. The PDGA wants the players to play and the TD's to keep running tournaments. You really have to mess up bad for the PDGA Discipline Board to actually suspend a player in my experience.....they are just titles without real power.

The PDGA does the best job they can with the limited staff available. They have us going in the right direction overall, it's the immature players out there holding us back......which why "children on tour" cracks me up:)

Instead of whining about payouts, added cash, or "unfair" courses......go to a school and show some kids how to have fun with discs....it's good for the soul!

Get over yourselves.
I'm with you on the immaturity of a lot of players "on tour". I'm tired of it too.

But with this incident that you bring up, did YOU try to do anything? Did YOU slap the guy with a courtesy warning or two, or even just tell him to cool it? I know you say the TD is on the rules committee and another player is on the disciplinary committee, but having those positions doesn't mean they have to be the only ones who should speak up or take action. Every player is empowered to warn and penalize players for courtesy violations. A player can't "ruin the tournament for everyone" if "everyone" doesn't let it happen.

MTL is right. The disciplinary committee isn't a do-nothing committee. I'm not on it, but I see the evidence of it right here: http://www.pdga.com/documents/disciplinary-actions I see a few names on there for suspension due to unsportsmanlike behavior. I imagine those players are on the list because someone reported them and the disciplinary committee acted upon the complaint.

And if you really want to see the behavior curbed, and you don't trust the PDGA disciplinarians to do their job, then I think the next logical step is to get these immature losers on video and post that stuff up on youtube or something. I mean, who doesn't have a camera on their cellphone these days? And if you don't, digital video cameras are getting smaller and smaller...it wouldn't take much room in the golf bag.

And when you whip the camera out, don't be surreptitious about it. It's amazing what being on camera or simply the possibility of being in/on the media can do to one's behavior. Played a tournament round last week in which a photographer/reporter followed the group around in order to do a story. One of the guys in the group is known to be a hothead from time to time (he's good for a mini punch or a bag slam once a round, it seems). With the reporter there, he was on his best behavior and kept a pretty even temperament. He shot a new course record...of course, we don't know if that was a result of the lack of hotheadedness or the cause of it, but it was a pleasant round either way. I credit the reporter's presence, myself.

Public humiliation, via discipline or mass distribution of video evidence, might be the best way to get through to some of these "children".

I have what I feel is a very unique perspective on player behavior because I have seen it from all angles. I've been a "touring pro" (and I use that term VERY loosely. Yes, I traveled a lot and played a lot of larger events, but never without a job or any hope of making money. However I did earn the title "touring pro" by the PDGA), I've been a total hothead who has received warnings for behavior, I've TD'd dozens of events and I'm also on the committee that handles things like this.

The common bond between all these perspectives is one thing: this is a self policed sport.

It never ceases to amaze me how at my events I ask someone afterward if they enjoyed it and they say "yeah, but I had to play 3 rounds with XXXXX XXXXX and they were just cussing and kicking stuff and all that." Why isn't that reported?

The TD can't do everything and can't be everywhere at the same time.

Blah, blah, blah, this is just more of the same epidemic ubiquitous in disc golf where people complain online, yet do absolutely nothing themselves to fix the problem when they actually had the chance.

People complain about golfers not playing by the rules. But did you call the golfer during the tournament on the rules violation you witnessed?

People complain about golfers using alcohol or drugs during a tournament. But did you call out the golfer during the tournament and/or report it to the TD?

People complain about the payout. But did you ask the TD for a breakdown of the payout and the added cash?

People complain about "unfair" courses. But did you discuss with the TD / course pro / groundskeeper about their philosophy on the course design and why you thought some tees & pin positions were unfair?

People complain about touring Pros acting like children. But did you call the golfer during the tournament on the courtesy violation you witnessed? No, you did nothing and then worse yet, you now mock the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

Blah, blah, blah. Instead of blaming others, why not grow a pair and when something bothers you, actually do something yourself like you are supposed to do. Open up a dictionary and learn what the meaning of "self" and "policed" and "sport" are.

[QUOTE=jconnell;1457237]I'm with you on the immaturity of a lot of players "on tour". I'm tired of it too.

But with this incident that you bring up, did YOU try to do anything? Did YOU slap the guy with a courtesy warning or two, or even just tell him to cool it? I know you say the TD is on the rules committee and another player is on the disciplinary committee, but having those positions doesn't mean they have to be the only ones who should speak up or take action. Every player is empowered to warn and penalize players for courtesy violations. A player can't "ruin the tournament for everyone" if "everyone" doesn't let it happen.

MTL is right. The disciplinary committee isn't a do-nothing committee. I'm not on it, but I see the evidence of it right here: http://www.pdga.com/documents/disciplinary-actions I see a few names on there for suspension due to unsportsmanlike behavior. I imagine those players are on the list because someone reported them and the disciplinary committee acted upon the complaint.

And if you really want to see the behavior curbed, and you don't trust the PDGA disciplinarians to do their job, then I think the next logical step is to get these immature losers on video and post that stuff up on youtube or something. I mean, who doesn't have a camera on their cellphone these days? And if you don't, digital video cameras are getting smaller and smaller...it wouldn't take much room in the golf bag.

And when you whip the camera out, don't be surreptitious about it. It's amazing what being on camera or simply the possibility of being in/on the media can do to one's behavior. Played a tournament round last week in which a photographer/reporter followed the group around in order to do a story. One of the guys in the group is known to be a hothead from time to time (he's good for a mini punch or a bag slam once a round, it seems). With the reporter there, he was on his best behavior and kept a pretty even temperament. He shot a new course record...of course, we don't know if that was a result of the lack of hotheadedness or the cause of it, but it was a pleasant round either way. I credit the reporter's presence, myself.

Public humiliation, via discipline or mass distribution of video evidence, might be the best way to get through to some of these "children".[/QUOT

Good answer Mr Connell....thanks for the feedback! I will have my phone fully charged next tournament. I was not in his group.....but I did see his tantrums after the rounds.....and heard about his tantrums from the players he was playing with during the round.

Jeff Lag....you are a blow hard....we have all read your attention seeking posts for years....just keep your mouth shut.

Josh Dobelstein, I will present my opinion whenever I see fit, and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do about that. As long as my (or anyone else's) posts follow PDGA DISCussion board rules, you are powerless to prevent them. Put me on Ignore if you don't want to read my posts; failing that, it is YOU who should then keep your mouth shut.

Josh Dobelstein, I will present my opinion whenever I see fit, and there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do about that. As long as my (or anyone else's) posts follow PDGA DISCussion board rules, you are powerless to prevent them. Put me on Ignore if you don't want to read my posts; failing that, it is YOU who should then keep your mouth shut.

I know the rules Jeff....thanks for your response. I hope we meet up soon to discuss this more in person.

I hope we meet up soon to discuss this more in person.

Actually, if that's supposed to be a veiled physical threat, then you definitely DON'T know the rules (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/faq.php#board_policy). http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/icons/icon13.gif

Actually, if that's supposed to be a veiled physical threat, then you definitely DON'T know the rules (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/faq.php#board_policy). http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/icons/icon13.gif

Who gets to decide whether it is a veiled physical threat or a sincere desire to have a face-to-face conversation? I, for one, prefer discussing contentious topics in person. I find that people are more reasonable when they are not able to hide behind semi-anonymous board posts. It is like the difference between how one might react after being cutoff while driving compared to how one might react after being cutoff while walking. In the first instance it is often F.U., while in the second, the common response is excuse me. People are more reasonable when there is the potential that they will be held immediately accountable for their actions.

Giving moderators, unless they have Ph.D.'s in human behavior, the power to decide whether a threat is veiled or not is absolutely ridiculous. I have only been a member for a short time, but when I read this board, I am more often reminded of Goebbels than I am the 1st Amendment. I find that to be quite disconcerting.

Justin, I can count on one hand the number of posts that have been edited or removed from the PDGA DISCussion Board in all of 2011. Just about one every other month! So I find the Goebbels reference quite disconcerting. http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/icons/icon13.gif

As someone who has run 50+ events in the last 6 years I can tell you that most of what I have reported to the PDGA has never even been followed up on...Only 2 of the many complaints have I even been contact on....and I know some cheaters that where turned in the middle of March that received nothing....and yes I have turned in folks personally...the problem is not with the DC, but the fact that the rules have no teeth...example---player is a jerk at most events he plays, fresh off probation, turned in for drinking a beer in front of a final 9 gallery and the TD...player gets probation again...so we wait till that is over and endure the next blow-up stupid crap...and please do not call me a liar on this board again or I will turn you in for a personal attack :)

Justin, I can count on one hand the number of posts that have been edited or removed from the PDGA DISCussion Board in all of 2011. Just about one every other month! So I find the Goebbels reference quite disconcerting. http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/icons/icon13.gif

It will take me two hands and maybe a foot or two but I can count the number of total posts on this boRed in 2011.

Justin, I can count on one hand the number of posts that have been edited or removed from the PDGA DISCussion Board in all of 2011. Just about one every other month! So I find the Goebbels reference quite disconcerting. http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/icons/icon13.gif

Fair enough. One hand. 2011. Sorry, but that is a pretty weak argument. However, it IS a common propaganda tactic. How about the first year the propaganda machine was set in motion (i.e. the year it became necessary to be a PDGA member to post)? You see, at this point you have behaviorally conditioned the members, who were originally willing to voice their opinions, to either stop using the board, or to walk on egg shells so they do not run the risk of being banished.

Actually, if that's supposed to be a veiled physical threat, then you definitely DON'T know the rules (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/faq.php#board_policy). http://www.pdga.com/discussion/images/icons/icon13.gif

Sorry you took it that way, I really would like to meet you to find out why you would spew so much hatred and ignorance on the discussion board over the years. I noticed you haven't even played a sanctioned event in 8 years.....did something happen to you mentally or physically?

ok

and I know some cheaters that where turned in the middle of March that received nothing

How can you prove cheating?

How can you prove cheating?

Often times to a level of .05 confidence which shows its significance.

Often times to a level of .05 confidence which shows its significance.

Matt. Talking some stat trash. :)

Matt. Talking some stat trash. :)

Sitting here in my political stats class.....boredom is the only thing that drives me to this site anymore.

Hey Josh,

In the 7 years since I last played in a sanctioned event, I got married, started a family, progressed my career as a research chemist, served as PDGA State Coordinator for my state, helped with the course design on several local courses, served as part of the moderation team for this message board, served as a TD, assistant TD, or Director of Scoring for dozens of local events, PDGA Majors and National Tour Events, including every PDGA Pro Worlds since 2007, and helped to grow the sport of disc golf.

Besides spew hatred and ignorance on the discussion board, what have you done?

How can you prove cheating?

Well other than the players being DQ'ed and the other players on the card admitting to said cheating, I have no proof

Well other than the players being DQ'ed and the other players on the card admitting to said cheating, I have no proof


All I'm saying is that it's nearly impossible to prove someone cheated.

All I'm saying is that it's nearly impossible to prove someone cheated.

Then why have rules

Then why have rules

I am guessing I just made the "special" list...

What ever is being done for discipline is not working...I see more and more poor behavior by top pro's that just goes away...and I see young players picking up on that as well...take away all the "fees" and the current list of actual rule violators is pretty small

The manufacturers are also disciplining their sponsored players either by suspending, penalizing or dropping them due to bad behavior. So it's not just the PDGA paying attention. In some cases, other sponsored players on the team are fed up with a teammate's poor behavior and reporting it to their sponsor to take action.

The manufacturers are also disciplining their sponsored players either by suspending, penalizing or dropping them due to bad behavior. So it's not just the PDGA paying attention. In some cases, other sponsored players on the team are fed up with a teammate's poor behavior and reporting it to their sponsor to take action.

That is good news...and I have seen that as well...as someone who spends $30,000 a year on discs from the manufacturers I am in favor of this and glad that it does go on...but we know the top 2 "fit" throwers on tour are sponsored by a manufacturer that will not drop them...and these players know that the will not get in any real trouble from the PDGA, so they will continue...and that sucks...just saying

On a side note, who is on the current DC

Hey Josh,

In the 7 years since I last played in a sanctioned event, I got married, started a family, progressed my career as a research chemist, served as PDGA State Coordinator for my state, helped with the course design on several local courses, served as part of the moderation team for this message board, served as a TD, assistant TD, or Director of Scoring for dozens of local events, PDGA Majors and National Tour Events, including every PDGA Pro Worlds since 2007, and helped to grow the sport of disc golf.

Besides spew hatred and ignorance on the discussion board, what have you done?

Wow....you want a cookie Jeff Lagassy? Get back to me when you do something like introducing disc golf to girls scouts (getting the first KY disc golf badges)....help under privileged kids.....Save the Kids Carnival.....Healthy Kids Coalition....church youth groups....Boy Scout Disc Golf Days....elementary school field days.....high school disc golf team....women conventions.....kids conventions.....along with the multiple tournaments and local leagues you hang your hat on....

Go research that, and get over yourself:)

I'm just tired of always seeing you trying to argue and give opinions on things that you are clueless about, or obviously don't have enough information to form an educated response. I feel dumber for responding to your posts, and I'm sure a lot of message board members think the same way, so I'm done.

OK

Josh, you know what's the really funny thing about all this? We did meet in person: at last year's Pro Worlds at Lemon Lake, at tournament central. And predictably, you had absolutely nothing to say to my face about my DISCussion Board posts. Where was all this angst then that was supposedly building up for years? So I'm having a nice laugh at this display of internet muscles.

Let's put an end to both the childish behavior on tour, AND the childish behavior on the message board. And that goes for the both of us.

Hey Josh,

In the 7 years since I last played in a sanctioned event, I got married, started a family, progressed my career as a research chemist, served as PDGA State Coordinator for my state, helped with the course design on several local courses, served as part of the moderation team for this message board, served as a TD, assistant TD, or Director of Scoring for dozens of local events, PDGA Majors and National Tour Events, including every PDGA Pro Worlds since 2007, and helped to grow the sport of disc golf.

Besides spew hatred and ignorance on the discussion board, what have you done?

So basically, Jeff thinks he is better than you and therefore you should just shut up!.....and don't renew

The manufacturers are also disciplining their sponsored players either by suspending, penalizing or dropping them due to bad behavior. So it's not just the PDGA paying attention. In some cases, other sponsored players on the team are fed up with a teammate's poor behavior and reporting it to their sponsor to take action.

although the VAST majority of those players wouldn't lose any cash....just frisbees.

This point is being drug through the mud. Josh D. has done lots
for disc golf in my area so I would maybe be a little more courteous Jeff.
No offense but you do come across as very opinionated. Just sayin' my friend.

On the topic at hand. I think it's time that the PDGA create a new position
or positions. We need a person available 24/7 during tournament play. Available
to take phone calls or answer simple questions via email with in a certain time frame.
This person should then have the authority to make a ruling for the T.D. about
said actions.

It's hard for some local T.D.'s to bring discipline down on their local players. The fear
of being the bad guy. These events/incidents are happening every weekend. This weekend in Evansville I heard the lead group stopped playing twice during a hard rain.
All the other groups kept playing. The T.D. did not want to stroke these guys for various reasons. This same thing happened at the Savannah Open two years ago. The lead group stopped playing with out hearing any horn or anything and then was able to complete their round the next day in the beautiful weather. How can this happen with
money, points, chucks ratings, etc. on the line?

A PDGA official can make these calls and it takes the heat off the local T.D.

Don't even get me started on why T.D.'s should not be allowed to play in sanctioned
events. If we don't get the rules ironed out we are never going to be taken all
that serious. T.D.'s at the least if playing should be required to carry a horn or a device
to halt play from anywhere on the course.

Sorry Sammy, but the idea of taking away money from other PDGA programs to hire a full time official "to take the heat off TDs" seems ludicrous. Or worse yet, increasing our membership dues to pay for such a thing. That would go over with the membership about as well as a lead zeppelin.

We are self policed sport and not just TDs, but every one of us has to be "the bad guy" at times.

If you call a golfer during a tournament on the rules violation you witness, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you call out a golfer during a tournament for using drugs or alcohol, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you think something funny is going down with the payout and you ask the TD for a breakdown of the payout and the added cash, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you think a tournament course layout was unfair, and you seek out the TD / course pro / groundskeeper about their philosophy on the course design and why you thought some tees & pin positions were unfair, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you see touring Pros acting like children, and you you call the golfer during the tournament on the courtesy violation you witnessed, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you are a TD, no matter what you do right or wrong, you are going to be "the bad guy."

TDs know their course, their local rules, and their players best. Why should some remote PDGA Official be brought in to make these calls?

On a side note, who is on the current DC

The head of the DC is Shawn Sinclair. The DC can be reached using the PDGA Contact page (http://www.pdga.com/contact).

Actually Sammy, you have at least one volunteer who checks here close to 16/7 and regularly helps TDs with tournament issues when no one in the office is available. Not so much with handling discipline issues though.

I know Mr. Sinclair is the head dude...I wanted to know who besides MTL is making the calls...or not making the calls

Sorry Sammy, but the idea of taking away money from other PDGA programs to hire a full time official "to take the heat off TDs" seems ludicrous. Or worse yet, increasing our membership dues to pay for such a thing. That would go over with the membership about as well as a lead zeppelin.

We are self policed sport and not just TDs, but every one of us has to be "the bad guy" at times.

If you call a golfer during a tournament on the rules violation you witness, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you call out a golfer during a tournament for using drugs or alcohol, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you think something funny is going down with the payout and you ask the TD for a breakdown of the payout and the added cash, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you think a tournament course layout was unfair, and you seek out the TD / course pro / groundskeeper about their philosophy on the course design and why you thought some tees & pin positions were unfair, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you see touring Pros acting like children, and you you call the golfer during the tournament on the courtesy violation you witnessed, you are going to be "the bad guy."

If you are a TD, no matter what you do right or wrong, you are going to be "the bad guy."

TDs know their course, their local rules, and their players best. Why should some remote PDGA Official be brought in to make these calls?



The head of the DC is Shawn Sinclair. The DC can be reached using the PDGA Contact page (http://www.pdga.com/contact).


<--- really bad guy