Is a Tournament Director allowed to pick whom they want to play in "their" tournament? Is there a rule that states: a paid up PDGA member must be allowed to play in a PDGA event unless an official PDGA suspension is in effect?

It seems I remember a Tourney a couple of years ago in the Northwest where Herm T. L. was not allowed to play a tournament because "it was on private land and the owner would not allow him on the property" In short, he could play but could not show up.

We had a tournament a few years back when a three local pros vandalized the course a week before the tournament. Two of the three admitted their wrong-doing and were not allowed to play. The third lied (later admitted it and was suspended) and was allowed to play against the wishes of the TD.

This pertains to an upcoming event where at least one player has been blacklisted. Acorrding to Carlton "If you feel that the person is causing that much trouble...then don't let him/her in the event. There's no rule that allows that but there's none that prevents it either." Does this seem right to you?

Not allowing someone to play in a PDGA tournament is akin to suspension. A TD should not be allowed to determine who is suspended.

btw- Herm is a great example as he really pushes peoples buttons.

Businesses reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Should TDs of PDGA sanctioned events be given that same right?

This is a public event in a public venue (county park), Should a personal debate between the TD and a local player come into effect?

I understand local non-PDGA events where the TD can make his own rules. I respect this since anyone willing to put up with the grief of dealing with this thankless job deserves some leeway in dealing with troublemakers, but I think a PDGA dues playing member deserves certain rights in a PDGA event.

We have one notorious local troublemaker (Big Red Killa) that is not blacklisted from local tourneys. What about a good natured loudmouth that the TD doesn't like? What if the TD is a good natured loudmouth? What if all involved are good natutred loadmouths?

Can't we all just get along?

The TD should not be allowed to curtail the rights of a dues paying member of the PDGA in a sanctioned event. He has every right to put a couple of PDGA officials with the suspect player at all times to ensure rules are followed. If necessary, the now recommended peace officer on duty can be added to the escort.

If there are enough people that feel the same way, the TD can make use of the provision in the PDGA constitution (10.3) and gather a petition against that member. Unfortunately the only punishment outlined in the constitution is to revoke the members active status or expulsion from the PDGA.

TDing is a thankless job. If there is someone who the TD cannot stand to have around, should a tournament be left unsanctioned by the PDGA because the TD will not put up with that person? Or should the tourney just be cancelled?

I TD tournaments. And while there are certain players I can count on to complain about something at every event, I wouldn't consider not letting them play. But there are all kinds of little BS dramas that unfold for no good reason, and I can totally see the possibility of absolutely not wanting to have to deal with some particular *******. (Hey, I can be an ******* too. But players always have the option of not playing a particular tourney of they don't like the TD.) Should the whole disc golf community in that area suffer from a lack of tournaments because somebody pisses off a TD so much that they are willing to not run tourneys to keep from dealing with that person? It's not like you make money TDing, so the real losers in that situation are the players.

Just TDing an event that runs smoothly is difficult. If there were a "Joe Hates Me" out there showing up and making things more difficult, it would be good thing to keep that person from playing.

I've got visions of moving to SoCal and Rhett not letting me in to his events...

When a player threatens the life of the TD, his wife, and his property, and the TD believes (by calling the police and making a statement) that his life is in danger, and his wife's life is in danger, and their property is in immediate danger, then, yes, I believe the TD should be allowed to CALL the PDGA first, and tell them the story, and get a PERMISSION comment to disallow THAT kind of person from playing on their private property. If this HAD NOT been private property, perhaps said individual would have been allowed to PLAY since the property would have been PUBLIC property (such as the DeLaVeaga Disc Golf Course) and the WIFE and PETS would not have been there and would not have HAD to be propected.

But, I DO NOT THINK that any TD should just be given this kind of AUTHORITY. There has to be life-threatening instances, or that the player has been suspended or disqualified from the PDGA, or the tournament.

I know that IF my WIFE and KIDS had been THREATENED by a pdga disc golfer, I WOULD not let that person play in any tournaments I had to offer. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Oh goody, another thread I should probably avoid. :)

Last year, I TD'ed 5 PDGA events. This year I was supposed to run six, and probably will be back up to that task in '05.

With that number of events, I have a number of opportunities to meet all kinds of people. For the most part, these meetings have all been enjoyable experiences.

There are a couple, however, that I can count on to be a pain in the buttocks and likely cause problems. If these people are dues paying members of the PDGA, my personal feelings about them should carry no weight regarding their eligibility to play in any PDGA event.

There are dozens of nightmare scenarios that could arise from TD's being allowed to determine who plays and who does not in any PDGA event.

Having said that, what if a player that falls into this "undesirable" category is not a paid member? He/she wants to pay the $5 non-member fee and play.

??????

I am amazed that a player would threaten the life of a TD, his family and his property. But the PDGA has got nothing to do with this, this is a matter for the local police deparment, Communicating threats, I believe the charge would be, and he would be arrested, that should stop him from being able to play in that event for the day, "hard to tee off when your in jail."

Per PDGA policy, all active PDGA members in good standing have the equal opportunity to enter PDGA sanctioned events. If any event wishes to exclude any particular individual member in good standing, the event must not be sanctioned with the PDGA. Acting in violation of this policy may subject the TD and staff to possible disciplinary action.

If any PDGA member wishes to file a formal complaint against another PDGA member, he may do so under Article 10 Section 1 of the PDGA constitution by submitting a written petition of complaint with at least (20) active PDGA member's signatures to the PDGA Oversight Director.

A non-member has no right to play in a PDGA-sanctioned event. The PDGA provides him a temporary membership for $5 for the weekend. A TD does not have to grant that temp. membership if he chooses not to do so, although this may be frowned by the PDGA upon unless there is valid reason not to do so.

Dave "Nez" Nesbitt
PDGA Competition Director

hmmm......

So if I wanted to exclude Nick from playing I would have to make my tourneys non-PDGA? Dang. :)

What if I put in my sanctioning agreement that I was not going to allow Nick to play this event and why that was my wish, like a special condition? Then the PDGA could sanction the tournament or not based on that info.

What about running an "Invitational"? The SN Finals excludes m e from playing their PDGA sanctioned event even though I am a PDGA member in good standing. How does that work? Can't you just use the "invitational" tag instead of being an "open" tourney and get around this?

Let me emphasize that there is currently no one, not even Nicky, that I would exclude. But I could see why someone might want to.

Let me emphasize that there is currently no one, not even Nicky, that I would exclude. But I could see why someone might want to.



Like markie?

This brings up a good topic though, all funnin' (or seriousness) aside.

If there is a player out there who is a real tyrant, that causes serious trouble for players and volunteers, and generally does not represent our sport or good sportsmanship well, then we really owe it to ourselves to send in these Article 10 complaints so that the PDGA has a leg to stand on when supporting TDs decisions to basically pre-DQ a troublesome player.

There is nothing wrong with protecting our sport from these types of players (and people).

Like markie?




Well, I might make a good test case to see how the system works. How many names do you need on that petition, anyway?

20

Well, it would seem you only need about 19 more then.

I can probably steer you toward at least a half dozen more right off the top of my head.

WHERE DO I SIGN?????


:eek:

??? "I would need"?

Don't you mean, you would need?

I'm not fixated on anyone...

That was not my intended message, but it is funny. :) I meant to say not even Nicky, but I could see why someone might want to bar someone else from their tourney.

What about the SN thing, and using "invitationals" to get around this? Those are special conditions that I assume must get pre-approved. If I put down that I want to bar Marka because he has more posts than me, I assume that the Competition Director will tell me no way, Marka never leaves Texas anyway, so allow him to play or else go unsanctioned because that is a lame reason. But people can be a-holes to others without breaking any PDGA rules, and if a TD has a good reason I don't see why it shouldn't be approved.

Rhett, you are talking about the 2003 New Mexico WRECK division champ!!!!

He's just bitter because I won't come see him.

I've played Fountain Hills and La Ma too. Heck, I've even played Tom Bass. That's outta Texas, isn't it? :)

Is the SN Finals a PDGA-approved tournament, granting points, and is also an Invitational? Or is it a tournament that needs to be qualified for by playing in SN events?

Either way, I didn't think that these type of events were eligible for PDGA sanctioning, or if they are, that they were point-granting events.

Nez, thanks for posting. Always glad to see BOD members' opinions. Don't know if I care for your avatar promoting another sport. :o:DWe may be the only 2 here who know what that disc is (or at least what mold number it is). Well, I can state that we are prob. the only ones who know what HMCU stands for!

Is the SN Finals a PDGA-approved tournament, granting points, and is also an Invitational? Or is it a tournament that needs to be qualified for by playing in SN events?



It was a PDGA sanctioned B-Tier last year. I assume PDGA points go along with it. You have to qualify by playing in an SN event first.

I'm not trying to pick on the SN Series, so let's stay away from that. :) But they bar PDGA members who are current and in good standing from playing in that event. This contradicts what Nez posted above.

I see and understand the PDGA policy and follow it. Luckly anyone who I did not want to play one of my tournaments didn't. (he did play doubles and caused minor problems that year)

This is a subject that I was interested in last month. I found out exactly what Nez said (actually from Nez too) and I gave up on the idea.

I still think TD's should be allowed to ban certain players from there tournaments. But I do see the problem with it and understand why it is a rule and will follow the PDGA rules.
___________________________________

As far as a player playing in a tournament that he does not like the TD and will cause problems, I don't undestand that. Why would anyone go play a tournament that they don't like or agree with the TD.

Back when I use to play lots of events, there were tournaments I did not play because of who ran them. ALL those guys have vanished from disc golf. They were the reason I became a PDGA official and eventually a TD. (over 8 years ago)

I agree with the PDGA's concept of due process. Players in good standing should be allowed to play in all PDGA sanctioned events. My problem exits with the process. First, player A can do ANYTHING he/she wants prior to an event and still play in that event. Then, said player is faced with the "possiblity" of a two year suspension, if and if only, 20 other players want to get involved in the politics. Next, said player is allowed to continue playing until the petition is completed and the PDGA rules. This process can take months to complete.

My other issue revolves around the severity of the penalty. As TDs, we are required to enforce all rules during play. This means DQing players, generally our friends, for voilating cetain rules. OK, I can do that if I have to. But at what point are TDs allowed to decide that player A's behavior is determental to his event prior to the actual event. You can't tell me that inflamatory remarks on a message board are "good" for our sport. Meanwhile, the "new" player caught drinking a beer in the "vacation" group during the final round is faced with a two year suspension, rapid and quick while the troublemaker who doesn't break any rules during play is allowed to undermine the TD and the event.

First, I'm asking why a TD is held responsible for upholding the rules of play but he can't prevent it. Second, the only recourse is either two year suspension or nothing and if the severity of the offense does not lend itself to a two year suspension then that behavior is acceptable since we do not penalize it. Finally, banning a player for one event for behavior deemed unacceptable by the TD will allow the player to modify his behavoir for the next event and still play. The player can then petition the PDGA on his own behalf regarding the TDs actions. This reduces the number of people caught up in the politics of the situation while giving the PDGA the final say so. The PDGA can always and quickly penalize a TD through the sanctioning process.

Bottomline, the TD is fully responsible for a PDGA event and we need to have a little faith in the TD and his support group and provide additional processes to support these players willing to step up and provide quality events on the behalf of the PDGA.

Sincerely,
Kevin Misiak
PDGA 10676
SSS#1

Kevin,

Where in the world do you get the idea that a "two year suspension" is "the only recourse" for any offense? And that a suspension only happens "if and if only, 20 other players want to get involved in the politics."???

Take a look at the list of players under disciplinary action. There are 2 month, 3 month, 2 year, 10 year, and indefinite suspensions, and probations for various players and violations. Those penalties are assessed by the Commissioner.

It does NOT take a petition of 20 members to sanction someone for violating the Rules of Play. That provision of the Constitution is the mechanism for disciplining members for charges of dishonesty, working against the principles of the PDGA, or injuring the good standing of another Active or Supporting member. This is the method whereby a troublesome player might be sanctioned and prevented from entry into tournaments, but in order to prevent simple personality conflicts from resulting in PDGA action, it takes a sufficient base of knowledge (20 members) to file a complaint.

You, yourself, said, "Players in good standing should be allowed to play in all PDGA sanctioned events." A member in good standing is understood to be one that has paid his or her dues for the current year and is not under suspension. Now, that player may be a real jerk, may post what you consider inflammatory remarks on the message board, may do all sorts of things that you consider offensive before and after the tournament. But if he abides by the Rules of Play(including courtesy rules) during the tournament, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it.

The PDGA is intent on enforcing the Rules of Play. A PDGA Marshall or a Tournament Director is empowered to assess penalty throws or to disqualify someone, and pass information on to the Discipline Committee, Competition Director, and Commissioner for further action. It may take some time for additional action, if any, but it hardly takes "months to complete."

I truly understand your and others' annoyance at some players that are just a pain in the rear. We have all seen people like that at tournaments, at the store, at work, at school, even in our own families. The fact remains, at least in the PDGA world, that annoying behavior has nothing to do with the Rules of Play, except as it affects courteous play. Now if someone is making threats of harm to you or anyone else, it's a matter for the public authorities. Everything needs to be treated in the proper perspective and in the proper arena.

Rhett, Rhett, Rhett. Wish I could answer your question, but you'll have to speak to the PDGA directly about this one. I would assume the TD has this worked out.

But you're correct, you have to play in at least ONE SN event to qualify for the finals. I can see your point, too, and with this being a USDGC qualifier, it could raise some concern and questions.

I only hope this has been addressed by the PDGA and the td, Shane Seal, and Jim Orum of the SN.

Hey, they have SN's in Texas now. Come join in the fun. Either that, or hold one in Cali and all you guys can qualify. All ya gotta do is send in $2 per player, then they all qualify.

Take it easy, Russ3523 :cool:

I said I didn't want to make this a "versus the SN" thing. :)

I am curious what the arrangement is and how it is implemented that allows you to exclude current PDGA members in good standing. I don't know if the MADCi is a PDGA tourney, but if it is they do the same thing.

I do not have a problem with this setup, but it goes against what Nez posted as fact earlier in the thread. I am interested in the hows of it all because the TDs are in fact disallowing PDGA members in good standing. If you read my posts you will see that I am in favor of TDs having this right to refuse service, so please don't take my reference of the SN Final as an attack.

Rhett, I didn't take it that way at all.

I see your point and if something hasn't been worked out, it needs to be before the event, which is sometime in August or September. I would hope the arrangement has been made, but as you indicate, it could be a precedent setting type deal.

No feud here, dude :D rwc :cool:

Nez was addressing a different point than "Invitational PDGAs" he was addressing a TD selectively pre-disqualifying specific PDGA Members in good standing from participating in your typical PDGA event.

Technically they must be labelled "PDGA X-Tier" and recieve approval from the PDGA Competition Director. Last years MADCi was a PDGA XB-Tier event.

There is a big difference between these Regional Series Finals and a stand alone event or one of the series events on their own. The biggest is that they are pretty rare, the second of which is that they are designed to increase participation at other events (the series leading up to them).

This sort of arrangement wouldn't work for just any old event...

Thanks for your response, idahojon

First, I did not know there was a list of players under disciplinary action that I could access. Where can that list be found? Second, I was unaware that players have been suspended for less than two years.

Next, I believe you misunderstood my position. I understand that it does not take a petition for violations of the Rules of Play but they are only in effect from the two minute warning until the scorecard has been turned in. I'm concerned about behavoir before an event and the impact on the event. Please correct me again if I'm wrong but as I understand you, a player may partake in any activity or behavoir prior to an event and must be allowed to play in that event, unless a petition of 20 players can be filed and acted on by the PDGA prior to the event.

I believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. At a time when there is a focus on our sport's growth and image, do we have some "code of conduct" that inhibits players and TDs from misrepresenting our sport outside the time of play. I'm not advocating the policing of private activities but do we allow children molesters to play PDGA events?

Let's discuss a more relevant example. Here is part of the agreement for using this board.

"Remember: you are in a public forum, talking to your fellow disc golfers. Behave accordingly. Disagreements are fine; flaming is not.
This PDGA-sponsored board does not guarantee freedom of speech. Messages containing profanity or inflammatory comments may be removed. Individuals who persist in this behavior may be barred from future posting."

Let's say a player is barred from this message board for posts regarding a TD or tournament. Can he still play in that tournament if no petition is filed?

Thanks for your input,
Kevin

Here's where that information is posted: http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary_actions.php

Let's say a player is barred from this message board for posts regarding a TD or tournament. Can he still play in that tournament if no petition is filed?



That's a great question.

While it is interesting to see who is suspended or on probabtion, the woman in me needs to see the scoop!!!!
Why is 2003 AM World Champ suspended. It shouldn't be a secret should it?
Provide some details ya'll!!!
If we knew what people were doing wrong out there, maybe some of us would make sure not to do those things.
I guess what I am saying is, spill it, make an example of 'em!
SCOOP YA'LL
Tell us!!
Why is the AM Champ suspened for 2 month?
Wasn't the tank top bad enough?

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=153146&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

While it is interesting to see who is suspended or on probabtion, the woman in me needs to see the scoop!!!!
Why is 2003 AM World Champ suspended. It shouldn't be a secret should it?
Provide some details ya'll!!!
If we knew what people were doing wrong out there, maybe some of us would make sure not to do those things.
I guess what I am saying is, spill it, make an example of 'em!
SCOOP YA'LL
Tell us!!
Why is the AM Champ suspened for 2 month?
Wasn't the tank top bad enough?



Read it here and leave it there. Please
Emotional Discussion of Suspension (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=153146&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1)
:cool:

First, I did not know there was a list of players under disciplinary action that I could access. Where can that list be found? Second, I was unaware that players have been suspended for less than two years.



First, the info can be found at the link posted above by Terry Calhoun. Second, there has been a raging discussion for the last week or so here on the message board about three players that were suspended for two months. I guess you must have missed that.


Next, I believe you misunderstood my position. I understand that it does not take a petition for violations of the Rules of Play but they are only in effect from the two minute warning until the scorecard has been turned in. I'm concerned about behavoir before an event and the impact on the event. Please correct me again if I'm wrong but as I understand you, a player may partake in any activity or behavoir prior to an event and must be allowed to play in that event, unless a petition of 20 players can be filed and acted on by the PDGA prior to the event.



Actually, I think you misunderstood me. What I said was that only behavior specifically mentioned in the Constitution of the PDGA can be addressed by petitioning the Board of Directors, as noted in the Constitution. If you think that someone is engaging in illegal, threatening or dangerous behavior prior to the event, the proper course of action is to take it up with the civil authorities.


I believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. At a time when there is a focus on our sport's growth and image, do we have some "code of conduct" that inhibits players and TDs from misrepresenting our sport outside the time of play. I'm not advocating the policing of private activities but do we allow children molesters to play PDGA events?




I guess I'm not sure what you mean by players and TD's "misrepresenting our sport outside the time of play." Your example of allowing a child molester doesn't have much to do with the representation of our sport, but EVERYTHING to do with public safety. If this person has been convicted of such an offense and served his time, his probation/parole agreement probably has something to say about where he can go and who he can be around. Again, a matter for the civil authorities. No matter your disgust at this person's background, the PDGA Constitution and Rules of Play do not cover this. And it's not in our purview to do so. We are a private organization, whose mission is to promote our sport. We are not a civil governing body, nor can we enforce laws or regulations outside the intention of our Constitution.

I know there have been instances in the past where players who have abrasive and irritating personalities have run afoul of TD's, but unless that person poses a physical risk to the TD or other players, if he is in good standing, he is allowed to play. Give him courtesy warning, penalty throws, DQ for continued behavior. Those are within the Rules of Play. DQ may result in probation or suspension. Petitioning for prior suspension based on known bad behavior will probably not.

I'm personally offended by people that drink excessively and carry their boisterous, obnoxious behavior to the course. They annoy me and make my disc golf experience less enjoyable. If they are adults, there isn't much I can do about their drinking, but I can assess penalties for their behavior during a tournament. Hopefully, they will learn from that and keep such away from the game.


Let's discuss a more relevant example. Here is part of the agreement for using this board.

"Remember: you are in a public forum, talking to your fellow disc golfers. Behave accordingly. Disagreements are fine; flaming is not.
This PDGA-sponsored board does not guarantee freedom of speech. Messages containing profanity or inflammatory comments may be removed. Individuals who persist in this behavior may be barred from future posting."

Let's say a player is barred from this message board for posts regarding a TD or tournament. Can he still play in that tournament if no petition is filed?



Did he say that he thought the payout stunk? Did he complain about the condition of the course? Did he offend the sensibilities of the TD? For those things, probably not.

Did he threaten the TD or other players with his remarks? Did he say he would cause harm to person or property? Most likely he could/should/would be barred from the tournament and charged with making threats.

Now, don't take this as advocating any of this behavior. It's pretty clear to me from the Rules of Play and the PDGA Constitution that there are certain things that we can control and certain mechanisms for exercising that control. When it goes beyond the realm of the PDGA's regulation, then you need to exert control through other means. Social pressure and the intervention of civil authority are two such means.

Maybe I've got a thicker skin than most. Maybe I realize that this sport has its share of jerks, just like every other part of life. I could probably run some pretty selective tournaments by just inviting those people that I have never seen or heard utter any profanity or never have a beer or never mutter angry words or never criticize things that happen at tourneys. Selective as in there would be about 2 people playing and I might not be one of them. One thing that I do use is a local rule that says that "the provisions of PDGA Rule 804.05 are in effect from 6:00 am on the day of the tournament until two hours after the completion of the awards meeting." That way if people wish to participate in activities that may harm the image of the sport, they are well away from the course and tournament site.

It really sounds as if you (and a few others) would like to bar individuals that you have issues with from playing in PDGA tournaments in your area. I'd counsel you to first try to work with these people to help them change their behaviors in a positive manner before you try to use the PDGA as a hammer to rectify your conflicts. You are always welcome to not sanction your tournaments if you want to ban these folks. Of course, the rest of your player constituency might find somewhere else to play so they don't lose out on points and ratings. That being the case, you might just find a way to work with the "problem children."

Hey, I had a player threaten me and my life last season, this certian individual will never be allowed to participate in any event that I run sanctioned or not. I kicked his a** out of the tourney and he still continued to play! Two hole's later his drunka** was deceived by a creek and fell in head first, it was "JUSTICE" served on a hot plate. He not only made an idiot of himself, he lost half of his bag. Fortunately the leader card behind us witnessed the whole incident unfold, oh yeah, did I mention that I was the TD of the event.

In severe cases like the above mentioned, I do believe that the TD, or hosting club, has the right of not letting certain idividuals play or not play, as long as the reasons are documented and witnessed, not just a personal grudge.

Hey, I had a player threaten me and my life last season, this certian individual will never be allowed to participate in any event that I run sanctioned or not. I kicked his a** out of the tourney and he still continued to play! Two hole's later his drunka** was deceived by a creek and fell in head first, it was "JUSTICE" served on a hot plate. He not only made an idiot of himself, he lost half of his bag. Fortunately the leader card behind us witnessed the whole incident unfold, oh yeah, did I mention that I was the TD of the event.

In severe cases like the above mentioned, I do believe that the TD, or hosting club, has the right of not letting certain idividuals play or not play, as long as the reasons are documented and witnessed, not just a personal grudge.



That was during an event. Good use of the rules to DQ them from that event. That would not allow you to bar this person from your next sanctioned event, unless they were suspended. :D

This particular individual was suspended from all club events sanctioned or not.

I should never read these threads, they gotta be bad for my health. :)

Why is this guy not on that suspended list?

This particular individual was suspended from all club events sanctioned or not.



There is nothing in the PDGA Constitution that bars a club or a league from banning a player from its non-sanctioned events. Ordinarily, however, a club/TD may not bar a member in good standing from competing in a PDGA-sanctioned event.

The 2004 PDGA Tour Event Sanctioning Agreement (see page 2), however, appears to provide a mechanism whereby an event TD may ban an otherwise eligible member from competing in his/her tournament, provided that the TD obtain prior, express permission from the PDGA to do so:

Local Conditions:
Per the terms of this agreement, PDGA TDs will enforce the PDGA Rules of Play. <font color="red">If there are any local conditions regarding this event which would restrict</font> the enforcement of any PDGA rule or <font color="red">the participation of an otherwise eligible PDGA member</font>, please provide details:

Note further that TDs:

� agree that if any provision in this agreement or any Rule of Play is unacceptable the TD shall contact the PDGA Competition Director to seek a waiver. Specifically, <font color="red">clearance is required at the time of sanctioning for any local conditions which would restrict</font> the enforcement of any PDGA rule or <font color="red">the participation of an otherwise eligible PDGA Member. If no waiver is granted this agreement and the Rules of Play are binding.</font> (p. 4)

(Has this been provision been in place in the past, or is it new to the 2004 Agreement?)

By requiring approval for any proposed ban by an independent, disinterested third party (the Competition Director) prior to sanctioning, the mechanism protects the the player(s) in question from an arbitrary or frivolous ban on the part of the TD while at the same time protecting the event and the TD from the proximate likelihood of abuse by those player(s).

So the answer to the question posed in the topic appears to be, "No, TDs cannot choose who's allowed to play, but they may request that the PDGA disallow a player's participation in their tournaments."

That's perfect.

Dang ... looks like I killed this thread.

Don't want to drag this out unnecessarily, but there are a few things I'd like to know to satisfy my curiosity.

Rhett, Jon, Nick, Pizza God, or one of the other long-time TDs: do you know if the phrase "otherwise eligible member" has been part of the Sanctioning Agreement in previous years, and if not, when it was added? (I'm curious whether it was added specifically to address situations like the one involving Herm the Lefty a couple of years ago.)

Jon, Terry, or someone involved in granting tournament sanctioning: can you confirm that the "Local Conditions" clause in the Sanctioning Agreement does, in fact, permit what, practically speaking, amounts to a de facto one event suspension (for cause) of an otherwise eligible member? If so, is it safe to presume that the request to ban the player is passed on to the Commissioner (or the Commish's designated representative) for investigation/review, since only the Commish may issue a suspension?

Also, the language of the Sanctioning Agreement implies that requests to ban/suspend a player must be made and approved prior to the grant of sanctioning. If player's behavior or demeanor becomes an issue AFTER the tournament is sanctioned but before the tournament occurs (say, in a case where an annual tournament traditionally held in October receives sanctioned in February, but in June the host club bans a PDGA member from competing in its events for the remainder of the year), is there a provision for a TD to request that the player be banned/suspended from his/her event AFTER sanctioning has been granted?

Not trying to be difficult: as I noted above, I'm asking these questions out of curiosity. If you would prefer not to answer here, please PM me. Thanks.

Good point, there needs to be an clause that allows TD's to send in a form with names of players he/she deems unfit to play in that tourny. Just in case a new problem with a player arises.

If conditions change, I don't see any problem with sending in a revised sanctioning agreement.

If conditions change, I don't see any problem with sending in a revised sanctioning agreement.



That's certainly a possibility: my only concern with that would be whether or not a player subject to a potential event suspension would receive a fair hearing in light of the fact that the tournament has already been sanctioned.

As I recall, in the situation involving Herm TL, the TD volunteered to surrender sanctioning, but the decision was made to allow the tournament to proceed with sanctioning because withdrawing sanctioning would harm other players who were seeking to qualify for the next year's Worlds.

That is not to question the integrity or the fairmindedness of the people who would decide whether or not to approve the revised Sanctioning Agreement; it is simply a recognition that once an event has been sanctioned, it acquires an additional set of considerations that weigh heavily in favor of the event retaining its sanction, which potentially make it easier for a TD to obtain approval for changes to the Sanctioning Agreement; changes which, in the absence of prior sanctioning, might not be approved.

Here's a situation for a TD - should this PDGA member with a TD license be allowed to speak to another PDGA member with a TD license in the following manner on the internet?

Have you seen Herm LF's new one over at: http://odsa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1503&amp;sid=1be4e1ec3113bab99b25bbf57 5c5a841

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. I don't think anyone should publicly post a private email without the author's permission.

2. Herm's flaming post isn't helping the situation. Two wrong don't make it right.

3. Posting Herm inflammatory post on this website was unnecessary since you had the address posted for other to use. Three wrong don't make it right, either.

4. Many local disc golf discussion boards have similar problems. Public inflammatory post are discourteous. No respectable human being would say those things in a restuarant but for some reason many players feel it is OK to blast away on a public bullentin board. Why aren't these people using private emails or phone calls? In my opinion, to "out" the object of their displeasure for their own purposes.

Finally, will the PDGA enforce its ban on inflammatory posts on this board when a player posts someone else sh*t. Doubt it, since we're all in good standing!

Kevin

Thanks, neonnoodle!

I appreciate the edit of unneccesary, repetitive content.

Kevin

E-mail is NOT private! Several cases of people being fired, sued, what-have-you, over e-mail has happened. If you want it to be private, Go and TALK to someone, face to face. Many have misunderstood an e-mail as a insult, when it was not intended that way. there is no inflection to voice of e-mail, No facial expressions to let a person know what is serious and what is a joke. If you have a problem deal with that person, not your computer

Are we lawyers or are we Disc Golfers? Cheese and Crackers! If someone sends you an email, whether it is legal to post it in public or not is not the issue. Whether you want to be a rude and inconsiderate person is.

Certainly this electronic medium leaves a lot to be desired. But in many cases it is all we have. We need to at least attempt to give each other the benefit of the doubt. Yes, that's me saying that.

Of all the apparent tiffs I've had on here, there have only been 2 people that have ever emailed me to say that they REALLY did not appreciate my online persona. Maybe 2 others have confronted me and we learned to appreciate each other, or at least not read too much into what we wrote online.

Life is too short for this petty bitterness. I don't envy the animosity I read about on this board between certain folks. You need to face it and deal with it and this PDGA Message Board is not the place for it. Pick up the phone and be gentle people.

But this way is so much more fun... :D

Pick up the phone and be gentle people.



:eek: :D

Gary and James, there is a difference between this sort of public disclosure of hate and our jibing. These guys need a mediator, not to mention an English teacher.

WOW, I just read that whole thread......

English is obviously a foreign language......


Is Herm banned form here, I havent seen him post in quite some time, even if Dave of Live Oak stole his avatar. (dumb considering his name isnt HERM)

Sounds like someone definately has mental problems.....

Here's a situation for a TD - should this PDGA member with a TD license be allowed to speak to another PDGA member with a TD license in the following manner on the internet?




What's a TD license? There is no such thing. In order to be a tournament director, you must be a Certified Official. In order to be a Certified Official, you must be a member in good standing (among other things). So, really, it comes down to whether a member should be addressing another member (or anyone else) in such a manner.

The issue here is whether this type of emotional discourse has any place on this or any other message board. Obviously, ODSA has a section on their forum specifically for posts with "strong language." And there are those that just can't express their opinions without using such language or doing things that get around the language filters. (Using other characters for letters in offensive words, using near-sounding words, using perjorative language to refer to others that don't agree with them. You know who you are.)

This message board is read by people outside the sport, people that could be future members, sponsors, etc. There is no reason that such combative and insulting language has to be used here. If you can't make your point without being demeaning, then take a deep breath and rephrase it, or wait until you can do it in a more appropriate manner. The attitude that "they can learn to deal with it" just doesn't wash with me. I know of people that have discontinued their membership in the PDGA because of this and other less-than-upstanding things in our media.

I'm not talking about inarticulate, ungrammatical messages with poor spelling. They are almost fun to try and decode, though, at times, I have to just give up and move on. I'm talking about being mean-spirited and insulting. It just isn't necessary here or anywhere else, for that matter.

You got a problem with this? Then contact me by email, private message, or phone. Convince me that such communication techniques are appropriate, valid, or necessary. I doubt you can do it, but at least try to in the proper forum.

:D

Seems this story has taken care of itself - at least in Washington State: read the following.

Wednesday, March 24, 2004 � Last updated 4:39 p.m.

PT--Locke signs cyberstalking bill, dozens moreTHE ASSOCIATED PRESSOLYMPIA, Wash. --

Using the Internet to stalk or harass someone will become illegal under one of 40 new laws signed by Gov. Gary Locke on Wednesday.House Bill 2771, which passed the Legislature unanimously, plugs a loophole in the state's laws against stalking and harassment, which had mostly addressed in-person threats or telephone calls.

"I never thought that we'd have a problem with cyberstalking," Locke said as he signed the bill in the presence of Joelle Ligon, the Seattle woman whose relentless stalker inspired the bill.Ligon has spent years trying to get police to take action against a former boyfriend who barraged her and her co-workers with e-mail and other forms of Internet-related harassment."He was relentless over the course of about five years," Ligon said.

"Up to this point, victims have had nowhere to turn."The new crime of cyberstalking will be punishable by as much as a year in jail and $5,000.The measure sponsored by Rep. Helen Sommers, D-Seattle, defines cyberstalking as using the Internet with the intent of harassing, intimidating, tormenting or embarrassing another person using lewd or lascivious language. It also covers stalkers who use pagers or text message on mobile phones.


CERTIFICATION OF ENROLLMENT
ENGROSSED SUBSTITUTE HOUSE BILL 2771
58th Legislature
2004 Regular Session
Passed by the House February 13, 2004
Yeas 97 Nays 0
Speaker of the House of Representatives
Passed by the Senate March 2, 2004
Yeas 47 Nays 0
President of the Senate
CERTIFICATE

I, Richard Nafziger, Chief Clerk of the House of Representatives of the State of Washington, do hereby certify that the attached is ENGROSSED SUBSTITUTE HOUSE BILL 2771 as passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate on the dates hereon set forth.
Chief Clerk
Approved
Governor of the State of Washington
FILED
Secretary of State
State of Washington
_____________________________________________

ENGROSSED SUBSTITUTE HOUSE BILL 2771
_____________________________________________

Passed Legislature - 2004 Regular Session

State of Washington 58th Legislature 2004 Regular Session

By House Committee on Criminal Justice & Corrections (originally
sponsored by Representatives Sommers, Lantz, Cody, Nixon, Morrell,
Hankins, Tom, Kirby, Delvin, Mielke, Pearson, McMahan, Moeller,
Dickerson, McIntire, Kenney, Kessler, Conway, Darneille, Sullivan,
Schual-Berke, Kagi and Ormsby)

READ FIRST TIME 02/02/04.
AN ACT Relating to the prevention of cyberstalking; amending RCW
9A.46.060 and 9A.46.100; reenacting and amending RCW 9.94A.515 and 9.94A.515;
adding a new section to chapter 9.61 RCW; prescribing penalties; providing an
effective date; providing an expiration date; and declaring an emergency.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:

{+ NEW SECTION. +} Sec. 1. A new section is added to chapter 9.61 RCW
to read as follows:
(1) A person is guilty of cyberstalking if he or she, with intent to
harass, intimidate, torment, or embarrass any other person, and under
circumstances not constituting telephone harassment, makes an electronic
communication to such other person or a third party:
(a) Using any lewd, lascivious, indecent, or obscene words, images, or
language, or suggesting the commission of any lewd or lascivious act;
(b) Anonymously or repeatedly whether or not conversation occurs; or
(c) Threatening to inflict injury on the person or property of the
person called or any member of his or her family or household.
(2) Cyberstalking is a gross misdemeanor, except as provided in
subsection (3) of this section.
(3) Cyberstalking is a class C felony if either of the following
applies:
(a) The perpetrator has previously been convicted of the crime of
harassment, as defined in RCW 9A.46.060, with the same victim or a member of
the victim's family or household or any person specifically named in a no-
contact order or no-harassment order in this or any other state; or
(b) The perpetrator engages in the behavior prohibited under subsection
(1)(c) of this section by threatening to kill the person threatened or any
other person.
(4) Any offense committed under this section may be deemed to have been
committed either at the place from which the communication was made or at the
place where the communication was received.
(5) For purposes of this section, "electronic communication" means the
transmission of information by wire, radio, optical cable, electromagnetic,
or other similar means. "Electronic communication" includes, but is not
limited to, electronic mail, internet based communications, pager service,
and electronic text messaging.

I've recently been threatened by someone who said he was going to try and ban me from playing in any and all tournaments, including summer weekly leagues. But all tournaments are held on public parks which my taxes help pay for so does this person have a right to do so?

If he is running a tournament, I would assume he can refuse to accept your money.

sure, a TD can definitely ban you from his events no matter where they are held. He can't stop you from playing a course on public land (except when permitted and/or closed for a tournament) but his events are not funded by your taxes.

It's probably best to just make nice :)

I've recently been threatened by someone who said he was going to try and ban me from playing in any and all tournaments, including summer weekly leagues. But all tournaments are held on public parks which my taxes help pay for so does this person have a right to do so?



He may have extra steps to take if it is a PDGA sanctioned tournament, but otherwise, yes. You can't be banned from the park as there is no ownership there. But this person doesn't have to take your money and allow you to enter leagues if they see fit. In fact, if he pays for exclusive use of the course (reserves it through the park system) you won't be allowed on the course itself during leagues either. Your taxpayer status allows you access to the park, but not access to any of the gatherings within the park itself. You can be banned from a disc golf gathering just as easy as a family reunion at the park can stop you from going through their buffet line. You have no implied right to the gathering, and if the space has been reserved, no implied right to the area the event is held on.

Hopefully an easier path than this (reaching an understanding on your differences) is taken.

Whoops, looks like Baldguy beat me to it, and in a much more concise manner!

What did you do to get banned?

I'm not banned. I've been threatened with banishment for talking to PDGA members on this site about the upcming tournament. Seriously, that is the reason.

What were you talking about? Was it a secret tournament? Sounds fishy to me?

If you go to the BG Ams thread, this dude is wanting to ban me for that. For talking about a tournament with you guys!

Can someone please show me where in the: <ul type="square"> Official Rules of Disc Golf (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php) PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08TourStandards.pdf) document, or PDGA Competition Manual (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08CompetitionManual.pdf) [/list]that it is indicated that a tournament director of a PDGA-sanctioned event may refuse entry to someone at an event held in a public park. I'm not doubting that such a stipulation exists, but I'd like you to save me the work of searching for it. Thanks.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!

I can't find the thread.

It's the Blowing Green Am Championship thread.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!



John Chapman has told me the dude can refuse my money to any event he runs, and can keep me from being on areas he has reserved so technically I can be banned. But for using my right as a paid member to discuss a tournament as reason for wanting to ban me is pretty stupid!

web page (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=671315&amp;an=0&amp;page=0#Post6 71315)

You haven't posted here.

I'm referring to the one in the Tournament Info page. Not the affiliate club page. The affiliate club one was from last year, and we havent used it since.

Well, if that is the way that he wants to play...

I would raise this issue with all the disc golfers in the Bowling Green area. Heck, raise it on the thread that is the crux of this problem. Let them know what this TD is doing or attempting to do. Maybe those people will go to him and tell him that is not the best thing to do. If he is already going to do that, you have very little to lose. Peer pressure works wonders...

What did you write in that thread that offended him or his tournament or his club night? That is what I am wondering.

I just read the thread and I am going to guess that the guy is one of those types that wants everything to be super secret and you are getting lots of information out to the public.

Or maybe he just doesn't want someone who is not the official spokesman acting like he is while he is disseminating stuff that is not exactly correct?

It's not the TD who is attempting this. I just want to make that very clear. The TD is a good man, and has actually said I was doing a good job with getting information out to you all. It's one of our board members. I dont want to say who it is, and what position he has because I'm not petty like that. But unless I was slandering people, or bad mouthing the tournament to deter people I dont see any justification anyone has in wanting to ban anyone no matter where the issue is brought up. I'm a due paying PDGA member, and as one I have every right to play in any and all PDGA tournaments.

Or maybe he just doesn't want someone who is not the official spokesman acting like he is while he is disseminating stuff that is not exactly correct?



I have not claimed to be the spokesmen. I just like talking about the tournament with people who share the excitement as much as me. And I have not posted anything that I say is 100% confirmed. I have stated multiple times that only the TD knows, and I can only guess.

If he doesn't want you representing the tournament, you should just lay off.

The answer to the question, "Can a TD do X?" is "A TD can do almost anything they want to if after their tournament they are sending the PDGA $3600 in player fees, and dozens of renewals and new memberships." In a pissing match between any given player and the TD of that, I don't expect the PDGA to care about your wet shoes.

Then the PDGA doesnt care about it's due paying members.

John Chapman has told me the dude can refuse my money to any event he runs, and can keep me from being on areas he has reserved so technically I can be banned.





The answer to the question, "Can a TD do X?" is "A TD can do almost anything they want...



Again, can someone please show me where in the: <ul type="square"> Official Rules of Disc Golf (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php) PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08TourStandards.pdf) document, or PDGA Competition Manual (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08CompetitionManual.pdf) [/list]that it is indicated that a tournament director of a PDGA-sanctioned event may refuse entry to someone at an event held in a public park.

I am sure it's an unwritten rule!

And also where is it he can refuse entry of a due paying PDGA member to a PDGA Sanctioned event.

Since he is not the TD then I do not think you have anything to worry about, you said he is a good man right? I am sure he will do the right thing.

I am sure it's an unwritten rule!



The Rule of Make Believe is a powerful tool.

I like the TD. He helped me out soooo much when I ran my first PDGA event in the fall. You could technically count him as the TD since I didnt know what I was doing half the time. It's another member who is attempting this.

Let him try, I am sure he will not get you banned. That is ridiculous. You are excited about the event and you wanted to talk about it..case closed

I have not claimed to be the spokesmen.



Yet you act like a spokesman and have since the day after the BG thread started.

Who cares? Is anyone disputing the information that he has posted to be incorrect?

But how it seems to be doesnt mean it is. Since I have never stood up on a soap box and declared myself the "go to" guy for information then there is absolutely no justification. I discuss the tournament, which I have the right to, guaranteed as a due paying member. People know I am from BG, and so they come to me because I am on here frequently. If anything, the members have made me the unofficial spokesmen while I have consistently, and I want to repeat that word, consistently claimed that I do not know anything with 100% certainty and that any and all things I say is based purely on my own speculation, and therefore should not be taken at face value. It is in no way my fault that people believe what they want to based on a person consistently stating speculated opinion.

Then the PDGA doesnt care about it's due paying members.



If it comes down to a 'he said she said' thing, then the PDGA may actually show more care for its members by siding with the TD. Either no one plays if the TD decides not to have the tournament (everyone loses), or only one person doesn't play. Hopefully no one is put in that position and cooler heads prevail, but don't think for a minute that the TD won't have more pull if it comes down to this.

The "I guess you don't love me anymore" type argument holds no water if it comes down to having to send someone to their room.

Who cares? Is anyone disputing the information that he has posted to be incorrect?



The answer is no because any and all information is neither correct, nor incorrect. Hell, I've been commended by the TD for keeping the thread up to date and building excitement.

Then the PDGA doesnt care about it's due paying members.



If it comes down to a 'he said she said' thing, then the PDGA may actually show more care for its members by siding with the TD. Either no one plays if the TD decides not to have the tournament (everyone loses), or only one person doesn't play. Hopefully no one is put in that position and cooler heads prevail, but don't think for a minute that the TD won't have more pull if it comes down to this.

The "I guess you don't love me anymore" type argument holds no water if it comes down to having to send someone to their room.



But banishment must clearly be within the rules of the PDGA. Discussing a tournament with fellow tourney enthusiasts is not against the rules, nor is it against the by-laws in our club.

I'm looking at the PDGA rule book right now and the only means to justify any form of banishment are unsportsmanlike conduct, willful or overt destruction of plant life and course abuse, cheating to circumvent the rules of play, and activities in violation of the law and park regulation.

Yeah, I think I win.

But how it seems to be doesnt mean it is. Since I have never stood up on a soap box and declared myself the "go to" guy for information then there is absolutely no justification. I discuss the tournament, which I have the right to, guaranteed as a due paying member. People know I am from BG, and so they come to me because I am on here frequently. If anything, the members have made me the unofficial spokesmen while I have consistently, and I want to repeat that word, consistently claimed that I do not know anything with 100% certainty and that any and all things I say is based purely on my own speculation, and therefore should not be taken at face value. It is in no way my fault that people believe what they want to based on a person consistently stating speculated opinion.



If the people running the tournament are asking you to stop so confusion is minimized, then the polite thing to do is stop. Comment on how much you are looking forward to the tournament, comment on how excited you are, comment on how you are looking forward to seeing everyone. Comment on how nice the course looks or what disc you think you'll use on hole #1. But when people ask about tournament details, leave it to those who know and are best able to communicate accurate information.

And also where is it he can refuse entry of a due paying PDGA member to a PDGA Sanctioned event.



It ain't there folks. But I think you and Jeff already knew that.

Rule Book doesn't address this. Competition Manual says any PDGA member in good standing is eligible to compete in any division for which they qualify. Despite what "legal scholars" may opine, I don't think a TD could get away with such an action unless there were some egregious mitigating circumstances. Private property is a different story unless there is something in the sanctioning agreement that requires the owner to allow all members in good standing. I don't believe there is such a clause.

But how it seems to be doesnt mean it is. Since I have never stood up on a soap box and declared myself the "go to" guy for information then there is absolutely no justification. I discuss the tournament, which I have the right to, guaranteed as a due paying member. People know I am from BG, and so they come to me because I am on here frequently. If anything, the members have made me the unofficial spokesmen while I have consistently, and I want to repeat that word, consistently claimed that I do not know anything with 100% certainty and that any and all things I say is based purely on my own speculation, and therefore should not be taken at face value. It is in no way my fault that people believe what they want to based on a person consistently stating speculated opinion.



If the people running the tournament are asking you to stop so confusion is minimized, then the polite thing to do is stop. Comment on how much you are looking forward to the tournament, comment on how excited you are, comment on how you are looking forward to seeing everyone. Comment on how nice the course looks or what disc you think you'll use on hole #1. But when people ask about tournament details, leave it to those who know and are best able to communicate accurate information.


The TD told him good job!? It is some other guy complaining.

And I comply. The primary discussion, well, the only discussion, is what are the courses. And I tell people the courses they would be best at practicing in preparation based off, based off, based off, based off, based off my OWN PERSONAL SPECULATION and comments MADE by our Communications Director ONLINE both here and our club website!

All information I have stated has come from his words, and the TD's, but even they have stated nothing is 100% certain and I back that claim up by stating nothing is 100% certain. Information I speak of has already been published by higher ranking members online for the mases, and therefore I am only continuing the talk and not in any shape, form or fashion to be held responsible for any information that may be wrong, but NO ONE CLAIMS IS CORRECT.

.... PDGA member in good standing is eligible to compete in any division for which they qualify. Despite what "legal scholars" may opine, I don't think a TD could get away with such an action unless there were some egregious mitigating circumstances.



And that is what the 'he said, she said ' will come down to. The TD claiming the actions taken constitute such circumstances or asking the PDGA to rule on the members 'good standing'. On top of that, this only provides leverage for the sanctioned tournament. Forget your welcome for any upcoming unsanctioned monthlies, leagues and the like if the disagreement reaches this level.

Again, the best move would probably be to respect the request of the tournament staff, say that you're sorry and move on. All will be better for it.

These are the exact words of our Comms Officer, and I go by this information, while consistently claiming that I cannot say with 100% certainty either...

"We plan on havingthe Advanced play the hardest courses, but the details will not be determined untill we have a better feel for the number registered in each division.
Hardest in area are Franklin (long tees), White, Kereiakes long tees, Hobson, and the new park. So pratice these 5 and you will be safe as an Advanced Open!"

.... PDGA member in good standing is eligible to compete in any division for which they qualify. Despite what "legal scholars" may opine, I don't think a TD could get away with such an action unless there were some egregious mitigating circumstances.



And that is what the 'he said, she said ' will come down to. The TD claiming the actions taken constitute such circumstances or asking the PDGA to rule on the members 'good standing'. On top of that, this only provides leverage for the sanctioned tournament. Forget your welcome for any upcoming unsanctioned monthlies, leagues and the like if the disagreement reaches this level.

Again, the best move would probably be to respect the request of the tournament staff, say that you're sorry and move on. All will be better for it.



The guy I'm feuding with is on the same level of tournament staff as I am. He's not an assistant TD, or an official. He's a player just like you and me.

Then why is this an issue? It would only be words of someone who has no say in the matter.

Man, this is as crazy as listening to my boys (they are 10 and 8 respectively) arguing about 'who started it'. "I've heard enough, boys, go tell your mom ......"

I understand maybe others don't.

This is not the TD of Bowling Green AMs that he is talking about. It is the TD of some other tournament in the future who also runs leagues in Bowling Green.

This is totally unrealted to the Bowling Green AMs tournament itself besides the messageboard thread.

If it were the TD of Bowling Green AMs then he has some say of what goes on that thread, but that is not the case.

I have thread dived through every BG Ams related discussion and the only thing I have stated as 100% fact, because it is true, is that the concrete pads at Phil Moore have been poured. Everything I have stated has always been with said with words that include "guess" "speculate" "cant cofirm" and "contact the TD."

I win!

I really want to see him argue against me now. Anyone for that fact,

Even if this person cannot ban you from a PDGA event, they can ban you from playing in their league. I think you can kiss league good-bye after all you have said on this thread. Keep it up and you risk straining your relationship even farther. For the good of your club, be the bigger man and drop it!!!! Stop posting "official" stuff on the BG thread. Then consider deleting all your posts on this thread.

Where's the Midol?

I win!



One thing you'll eventually learn as a life lesson is it's better to be effective than right...

I'm almost 100% positive that if it's NOT listed in the: <ul type="square"> Official Rules of Disc Golf (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php) PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08TourStandards.pdf) document, or PDGA Competition Manual (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08CompetitionManual.pdf) [/list]then a tournament director of a PDGA-sanctioned event may not refuse entry to someone at an event held in a public park.

If it's not in there, then the TD can't ban you. Why we are even discussing this anymore? End of thread.

Some folks walk around life expecting to be screwed with and eventually they get proved right. Others, and I try to be in this group, expect they everything will go as it should. When things threaten to turn south you use your common sense and keep things going in the intended direction. Show up and play. Odds are that if you have your money, have your discs and are keeping your cool you will get out there and play. Having avoided any confontations you will concentrate better and play better. You will [censored] people off only because you played better and took home some plastic. However, start a public (ie. this thread) problem and you can make your nightmares a reality. Get out there and play. Have fun.

perhaps JD you should stop making such authoritative statements on the event forum, because I've thought all along up until I read about this immature situation that you were some sort of spokesman because thats the tone you've taken from the start. People also know you have been a TD in BG so rather you realize or not that lends creedence to the same argument.

bottom line, someone in BG needs to make a course assignment announcement asap since people are driving hundreds of miles on the weekends to practice on courses they dont even know if they'll end up playing.

I'm almost 100% positive that if it's NOT listed in the: <ul type="square"> Official Rules of Disc Golf (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php) PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08TourStandards.pdf) document, or PDGA Competition Manual (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08CompetitionManual.pdf) [/list]then a tournament director of a PDGA-sanctioned event may not refuse entry to someone at an event held in a public park.

If it's not in there, then the TD can't ban you. Why we are even discussing this anymore? End of thread.



Exactly. Besides, banning JD from a tournament for what he says he did is like applying the death penalty for a parking violation. No one is going to get away with that!

I've been following the BG thread also and I thought you were the spokesperson! Is it the "official" spokesperson that is throwing a fit? Maybe you could work it out so that you could be the "official" spokesperson next year. You have great communication skills and were very "unofficially" informative. I haven't seen very many other people posting as regularly as you have, so it kinda makes sense. But I'd say for the time being, to save a little face, maybe back off a little, and hopefully the "official" spokesperson can make things "official". By the way it sure sounds like you guys really got your stuff together there in BG. Congrats and Good Job, keep it up!!!!

Official, Unofficial? Who cares as long as the correct information is our there! Come on people lets get our panties out of a wad, it's just freakin disc golf!

I got no horse in this race so I will mostly stay out of it. Did you get some kind of PM or call saying you would be banned from the tournament because the message at the BG forum says you would be banned from the BG forum.

I win!



One thing you'll eventually learn as a life lesson is it's better to be effective than right...


All the old guys giving up hard earned wisdom for free. Here's a corollary: It's better to be effective than to get credit for it. :D

I got no horse in this race so I will mostly stay out of it. Did you get some kind of PM or call saying you would be banned from the tournament because the message at the BG forum says you would be banned from the BG forum.



I received an email from the said person stating that he would try and ban me from all BG events. And no, it is not the comms officer who was throwing the fit. Another member entirely. But I just received an email from him, albeit without an apology, but enough words saying that I was right about the situation.

Even if this person cannot ban you from a PDGA event, they can ban you from playing in their league. I think you can kiss league good-bye after all you have said on this thread. Keep it up and you risk straining your relationship even farther. For the good of your club, be the bigger man and drop it!!!! Stop posting "official" stuff on the BG thread. Then consider deleting all your posts on this thread.



Being banned from league only means I save $20 a week, and plus doing so is simply painting a horrible image of disc golf, and I believe no one would want that to happen. Plus, just because I wouldnt play in league doesnt mean I still cant set foot on the course, and enjoy myself some golf.

I win!



One thing you'll eventually learn as a life lesson is it's better to be effective than right...



Well as Randall Graves once said, "It feels good doesnt it, to be right? There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?"

gosh I love Clerks! HIGHLY recommend if you havent had the chance to see it.

In other words don't worry about it. At least someone in BG is boosting the BG Ams. Now on the other hand...I wouldn't do the same during BG Pros. That might get you into trouble...haha. :D

Climo will throw his Roc and slice my head off!

Only the top of your head as he doesn't want to mess up your face. :eek:

Only the top of your head as he doesn't want to mess up your face. :eek:



I do have a very pretty face. I'm what one calls Man-Pretty.

I'm almost 100% positive that if it's NOT listed in the: <ul type="square"> Official Rules of Disc Golf (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php) PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08TourStandards.pdf) document, or PDGA Competition Manual (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08CompetitionManual.pdf) [/list]then a tournament director of a PDGA-sanctioned event may not refuse entry to someone at an event held in a public park.

If it's not in there, then the TD can't ban you. Why we are even discussing this anymore? End of thread.


I think you're missing something. A Tournament is only sanctioned by the PDGA unless it is a Major, which is run by the PDGA. Omission of a "ban rule" in the PDGA guidelines doesn't mean the TD can't ban someone from his own tournament. the PDGA does not own all rights to how the tournament proceeds, but a sanctioned event must meet their guidelines to be sanctioned.

If Billy Bob Jones runs an event, it is his event. Whether he chooses to sanction it with the PDGA or another sanctioning body does not affect in any way, shape, or form his control of the event. If he deviates from the PDGA guidelines, his sanctioning can be revoked and the PDGA might decide to refuse sanctioning for his future tournaments, but that doesn't mean the tournament can't go on. Just because Jerry Joe Williams pays dues to the PDGA doesn't give him the right to compete in an event that the PDGA sanctions.

That said, only the TD has the ability to ban someone from his event. If the TD doesn't want to ban you, then don't worry, it won't happen. You might still want to make nice though... it sounds like you might be creating strife in your club.

I think you're missing something. It's not allowed. There's no provision for it in any rulebook or tour standards document. When a TD agrees to PDGA sanctioning he agrees to follow all PDGA rules and to allow all PDGA members in good standing into his event.

If a TD unfairly denies entry to a PDGA member in good standing, you can sure as sunshine bet that the PDGA Tour Manager would hear about it from said person, and there would likely be some conversation over whether that TD or club would receive PDGA sanctioning again.

This is a crazy thread.

Jeff is right.

No one can be denied acces to a PDGA tournament in a public park unless that person is banned by the parks / law form entering that park or the person is banned from PDGA play.

that's not true at all. The PDGA doesn't control the events it sanctions. Unless there is a rule specifically stating that any and all dues-paying members must be granted entry into an event, the PDGA doesn't even have a leg to stand on when it comes to removing sanctioning.

Allowed or not, the event is not defined by who sanctions it. Like I said before, the right to sanction could potentially be revoked but the tournament is still a tournament whether the PDGA likes it or not.


When a TD agrees to PDGA sanctioning he agrees to follow all PDGA rules and to allow all PDGA members in good standing into his event.


untrue. I have sanctioned events myself... and nowhere in that agreement does it tell me that I have to agree to allow all PDGA members in good standing into my events.


As Tournament Director, I hereby accept the terms of the 2008 PDGA Tour Sanctioning Agreement. Please initial each of the following points and sign below.

Agree to follow and enforce the Official Rules of Disc Golf, Competition Manual, and 2008 Tour Standards. If any provision of these documents is unacceptable I shall contact the Tour Manager and request a waiver

Agree to enforce the PDGA policy on the use of alcohol or illegal substances. (See 2008 Competition Manual)

Agree that as TD I will be a current member of the PDGA in good standing and a certified official well before the start of the event

Agree to ensure that each player competes in an official division for which they are eligible, based on class (Pro, Amateur, Junior), age, gender, and player ratings. See the �2008 Divisions Table� for more information.

Agree that for all SuperTour (A Tier) events, only PDGA current members will be allowed to compete, regardless of division. If a player in question does not provide irrevocable proof of their membership (2008 membership card, 2008 soft card, or name on the list of current members provided by the PDGA office) that annual dues will be collected before the player is allowed to participate.

Agree that for B and C Tier events, all non-current or non-PDGA members (with the exception of those competing in a Youth or Junior division) will only be allowed to compete upon payment of a $10 fee in lieu of membership. This $10 fee does not entitle the player to the calculation of points or the assignment of a player rating.

Agree to fill in and distribute the �Soft Membership Card� provided in the TD package to players who pay their annual PDGA dues at the event.

Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the 2008 pay tables.

Agree to email the TD report via email to [email protected] within the deadlines specified in the Tour Standards. If a TD is unable to submit results electronically he/she should ensure that this key task is assigned to an assistant TD or local club member with the necessary skills. The PDGA will receive handwritten results at an additional charge of $25.

Agree to provide the individual Pro cash and retail value of Amateur/Junior merchandise won in the �Score� worksheet of the TD report.



the competition guideline, rules, etc. do not prohibit me from banning an individual. So... how are you so certain that it's not allowed?

Frankly, it doesn't matter if it's allowed by the PDGA or not, I can still ban someone. The worst that can come of it is being disallowed PDGA-sanctioning rights... and those are overrated IMO anyway. I'm not saying I plan to ban anyone, since I generally don't believe in that policy. However... I stand by any TD's right to do so should the situation deem it necessary. The PDGA does not own my events or anyone else's.

The problem is that how does one differentiate between invite only type tournaments (PDGA sanctioned club tourneys, USDGC, etc.) which can tell a PDGA member that he does not qualify and not accept their entry and cases where a TD wants to not allow a PDGA member to enter for whatever personal whim he pleases. Seems like to allow the former, the latter must come with it.

INAL But if the refused player is in a protected class, that may become more interesting legally...

The worst that can come of it is being disallowed PDGA-sanctioning rights...



What criteria did you use to arrive at this conclusion? What about the possibility of the municipality/county banning the TD from the park for discriminatory practices? What about being sued by the banned individual or the municipality/county? Whether the suit is successful or not, it could be costly to defend. To suggest that the consequences are limited to loss of sanctioning rights is absurd.

That notwithstanding, in the Sanctioning Agreement, the TD agrees to follow and enforce the rules, competition manual, and tour standards. The Competition Manual under player eligibility provides that any PDGA member in good standing is eligible to compete. While you argue that nothing in these documents prohibit a TD from banning a member in good standing, I would counter that they don't prohibit a TD from mocking or taunting an eligible competitor, but that doesn't make it permissible.

With all due respect, I'm not buying your argument and I would suspect and hope that the membership at large would reject the same as contrary to the spirit of the rules and detrimental to the sport.

I'm not going to continue to argue this with you, baldguy, because I saw what happened with the online registration thread. But let me say this: according to your logic, anything that isn't expressly forbidden in the rulebook or sanctioning agreements must be allowed. So according to your logic, a TD could refuse entry to all competitors who don't wear purple shirts.

Furthermore, I would in fact submit that this IS covered. From the PDGA Competition Manual (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08CompetitionManual.pdf):
Section 1: Tournament Procedures
1.1. Player Eligibility
A. All members in good standing of the PDGA are eligible to
compete in any division for which they qualify based upon
class (Professional or Amateur), age, gender, and player
rating unless approved in advance by the PDGA Tour
Manager.

If TDs had the freedom to arbitrarily refuse entry to someone over any petty personal squabble, then surely they would have done so in the past, right? Can't say I've ever heard of that happening in my 12 years in the sport. Bottom line is that no TD or club would ever want to go there and risk losing PDGA sanctioning.

Why are you guys still arguing about this? The TD is not banning him from playing! Now stop it and go play golf!

Why are you guys still arguing about this? The TD is not banning him from playing! Now stop it and go play golf!



Well.....................................OKAY!

I want a full report when you get back!

Furthermore, I would in fact submit that this IS covered. From the PDGA Competition Manual (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08CompetitionManual.pdf):
Section 1: Tournament Procedures
1.1. Player Eligibility
A. All members in good standing of the PDGA are eligible to
compete in any division for which they qualify based upon
class (Professional or Amateur), age, gender, and player
rating unless approved in advance by the PDGA Tour
Manager.


This could be construed that way if interpreted loosely, but it appears to be talking about divisions and not the tournament in general. It appears to be intended to disallow TDs from dictating the division a player can compete in. I would argue that it does not cover situations that warrant refusal of entry altogether.


If TDs had the freedom to arbitrarily refuse entry to someone over any petty personal squabble, then surely they would have done so in the past, right? Can't say I've ever heard of that happening in my 12 years in the sport. Bottom line is that no TD or club would ever want to go there and risk losing PDGA sanctioning.


I have seen it happen more than once. I'm not advocating the practice, I'm advocating the right. If I truly believed that the PDGA assumed responsibility for determining who can play in my events and who can't, I would never sanction another event. I don't think I'm alone in this either. I will not be forced to allow a player to participate if I believe there is a good reason to disallow it. I have yet to find a good reason for that myself, but that's a different matter. I can say that there is at least one person I wouldn't want playing my events, and if he does try to enter, his money will be refunded promptly. This person is a PDGA member in good standing, but is also well-known as a thief and generally unscrupulous individual. He hasn't done anything in a PDGA event to get banned or affect his standing with the PDGA, but his standing with me and with the local DG community is in the crapper. This is a very good example of a person who should not and will not be allowed into any of my events, regardless of who sanctions it.

I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Every TD should. the PDGA gives DQ, rules alteration, and other freedoms to the TD... disallowing a player should go right along with that.

The worst that can come of it is being disallowed PDGA-sanctioning rights...



What criteria did you use to arrive at this conclusion? What about the possibility of the municipality/county banning the TD from the park for discriminatory practices? What about being sued by the banned individual or the municipality/county? Whether the suit is successful or not, it could be costly to defend. To suggest that the consequences are limited to loss of sanctioning rights is absurd.


please allow me to rephrase: "The worst that can reasonably come of it is being disallowed PDGA-sanctioning rights."

I stand by this statement in spite of the potential for other repercussions. I believe it is a judgment call that only the TD can make and I think that if the PDGA (or any other body) wants to review that judgment, then okay. But simply prohibiting the TD from making the call is absurd.

Wow, Whoever you are talking about sounds like a Tool.

The short answer is NO, as Jeff La has been trying to tell you.

The logical solution is come to Texas, we'll take your money. :D

Well, I suppose it would depend on what part of Texas one is in because there's a gentleman in Corinth who wants to reserve the right to promptly return one's money.

Baldguy - I'm not saying that a TD should be prevented from banning anyone. However, allowing arbitrary banishment to take place without repercussions would only lead to abuse of such a privilege, if it existed. There must be good reason to do so. If, in your example, the thievery has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then by all means, ban the player. Otherwise, I think you set yourself up for loss of sanctioning rights as well as a lawsuit. On the other hand, if you've calculated that this is a low risk, then good luck to you.

I suppose I have calculated it well enough, given that filing a frivolous lawsuit such as that would cost the person more than they could potentially win in any tournament other than perhaps the USDGC.

I'm not suggesting that banishment be taken lightly. My point is that the tournament isn't run by the PDGA, it's run by the TD. If a TD feels strongly enough that a player should not be allowed in, then he or she should have the right to refuse that player entry and the PDGA should support that. The PDGA's only role in that tournament is sanctioning it, thereby regulating the rules and providing points/ratings. Even still, I don't agree that anything in the PDGA's current guidelines prohibits a TD from making that call.

I don't know why some on this thread have insisted on making this an argument, but to me there is obviously an ambiguity in the PDGA's rules that needs an official explanation or "ruling". As more sanctioning bodies emerge for our sport and people have real alternatives to the PDGA, those people need to know what the pros and cons of each are. I think that if the PDGA rules that TDs cannot use their best judgement on matters like this in PDGA-sanctioned events, many will view that as a con.

This thread is silly.

If the TD really wanted to get the guy he wouldn't ban the guy, he would allow him to register, take his money, then DQ him for something trivial after a couple of holes.

Yes, it is. And so is the notion that a PDGA member can be banned from a tournament for no good reason.

Yes, it is. And so is the notion that a PDGA member can be banned from a tournament for no good reason.



For no good reason, agreed. But if a TD feels your presence would be a detriment to the overall tournament, and has evidence or examples that most rational people would agree with, absolutely. The local McDonalds doesn't have to take your money either. Nor does the public swimming pool. If you are a pain to those around you, or historically disrespectful to others trying to enjoy the experience, I agree with Baldguy on this that a TD has the right to refuse your entry. I would also expect that the PDGA would stand behind the decision if history or evidence supports it.

Again, not without reason and not commenting on this particular instance.

It is funny to watch and read all of the AGAIN. This topic gets rehashed every several years.

The PDGA several years ago had this question come up about a TD in the Northwest. The ruling was that the TD could not ban a member who was in good standing and the only way you could be in bad standing would be to be on the disciplinary list that is posted. If the TD did ban the member in good standing then that TD WOULD lose the sanctioning for the tourney the following year adn possibly longer.

Now I believe this scenario also included that the tourney was on PRIVATE land and thus the TD/owner of the land COULD keep this member from having access to the said land and thus the sanctioning would still be good for the years to come. But if it would have been on public land then the said TD COULD NOT ban the member who was in good standing.

If a member is in good standing and is NOT on the disciplinary list, the TD can NOT ban a member from a tourney. The PDGA also said that if the said TD wanted to waive the sanctioning and wanted to make it a non-sanctioned tourney then the said TD COULD refuse the member entry into the tourney.

But this is all a MOOT point since the TD in the case of the BG tourney is not the one who is doing the banning.

It is funny to watch and read all of the AGAIN. This topic gets rehashed every several years.

The PDGA several years ago had this question come up about a TD in the Northwest. The ruling was that the TD could not ban a member who was in good standing and the only way you could be in bad standing would be to be on the disciplinary list that is posted. If the TD did ban the member in good standing then that TD WOULD lose the sanctioning for the tourney the following year adn possibly longer.

Now I believe this scenario also included that the tourney was on PRIVATE land and thus the TD/owner of the land COULD keep this member from having access to the said land and thus the sanctioning would still be good for the years to come. But if it would have been on public land then the said TD COULD NOT ban the member who was in good standing.

If a member is in good standing and is NOT on the disciplinary list, the TD can NOT ban a member from a tourney. The PDGA also said that if the said TD wanted to waive the sanctioning and wanted to make it a non-sanctioned tourney then the said TD COULD refuse the member entry into the tourney.

But this is all a MOOT point since the TD in the case of the BG tourney is not the one who is doing the banning.



There's no banning anyway because I won my argument against the guy.

Sometimes when you win, you really lose. You've still yet to learn this...

Sometimes when you win, you really lose. You've still yet to learn this...



The guy personally apologized to me today so yeah, I won.

There's winning a battle versus winning the war, so to speak.

There's winning a battle versus winning the war, so to speak.



You could say the war is over because he apologized and we celebrated with a couple of rounds of doubles today so all is well between the guy and I. He realized he made a mistake, owned up to it, and I accepted. But at least we now know whether or not players can be banned so that debate is over.

There's winning a battle versus winning the war, so to speak.



You could say the war is over because he apologized and we celebrated with a couple of rounds of doubles today so all is well between the guy and I. He realized he made a mistake, owned up to it, and I accepted. But at least we now know whether or not players can be banned so that debate is over.



Sounds like you have got a lot to learn.

The guy personally apologized to me today so yeah, I won.



Be sure to use words like this after you've "won" an argument with your sweetheart. ;)

...Thanks honey for apologizing, I win!!

Hey wait baby, where are you going? ....Honey?

The guy personally apologized to me today so yeah, I won.



Be sure to use words like this after you've "won" an argument with your sweetheart. ;)

...Thanks honey for apologizing, I win!!

Hey wait baby, where are you going? ....Honey?



Spoken with sarcasm, the phrase, "okay....<u>you</u> win" can yield very similar results. :D

It is funny to watch and read all of the AGAIN. This topic gets rehashed every several years.

The PDGA several years ago had this question come up about a TD in the Northwest. The ruling was that the TD could not ban a member who was in good standing and the only way you could be in bad standing would be to be on the disciplinary list that is posted. If the TD did ban the member in good standing then that TD WOULD lose the sanctioning for the tourney the following year adn possibly longer.

Now I believe this scenario also included that the tourney was on PRIVATE land and thus the TD/owner of the land COULD keep this member from having access to the said land and thus the sanctioning would still be good for the years to come. But if it would have been on public land then the said TD COULD NOT ban the member who was in good standing.

If a member is in good standing and is NOT on the disciplinary list, the TD can NOT ban a member from a tourney. The PDGA also said that if the said TD wanted to waive the sanctioning and wanted to make it a non-sanctioned tourney then the said TD COULD refuse the member entry into the tourney.

But this is all a MOOT point since the TD in the case of the BG tourney is not the one who is doing the banning.


If this is true, then that is definitely a "con" in the PDGA column. How could the PDGA think that they are more capable of making this judgment call than the TD? I *really* hope this isn't true, for the PDGA's sake.

There's winning a battle versus winning the war, so to speak.



You could say the war is over because he apologized and we celebrated with a couple of rounds of doubles today so all is well between the guy and I. He realized he made a mistake, owned up to it, and I accepted. But at least we now know whether or not players can be banned so that debate is over.



Sounds like you have got a lot to learn.



Well I am known for my cockiness and arrogance, but I'm still at a young age and enjoying my life way to much to settle and be modest. Very hard to be when your mother raised you to be the best and trample over everyone at every chance.

The guy personally apologized to me today so yeah, I won.



Be sure to use words like this after you've "won" an argument with your sweetheart. ;)

...Thanks honey for apologizing, I win!!

Hey wait baby, where are you going? ....Honey?



Assuming I get married in which case even I know better to never backtalk a woman :DThat's why God is a single parent.

I just said sweetheart. I didn't say get married.


I also didn't say the sweetheart had to be a girl. :p

It is funny to watch and read all of the AGAIN. This topic gets rehashed every several years.

The PDGA several years ago had this question come up about a TD in the Northwest. The ruling was that the TD could not ban a member who was in good standing and the only way you could be in bad standing would be to be on the disciplinary list that is posted. If the TD did ban the member in good standing then that TD WOULD lose the sanctioning for the tourney the following year adn possibly longer.

Now I believe this scenario also included that the tourney was on PRIVATE land and thus the TD/owner of the land COULD keep this member from having access to the said land and thus the sanctioning would still be good for the years to come. But if it would have been on public land then the said TD COULD NOT ban the member who was in good standing.

If a member is in good standing and is NOT on the disciplinary list, the TD can NOT ban a member from a tourney. The PDGA also said that if the said TD wanted to waive the sanctioning and wanted to make it a non-sanctioned tourney then the said TD COULD refuse the member entry into the tourney.

But this is all a MOOT point since the TD in the case of the BG tourney is not the one who is doing the banning.


If this is true, then that is definitely a "con" in the PDGA column. How could the PDGA think that they are more capable of making this judgment call than the TD? I *really* hope this isn't true, for the PDGA's sake.



It takes the bias out of the equation. The PDGA is blind, just like jsutice is, when irt comes to running tourneys.

Just because you have a beef with someone, doesn't mean that he/she is not allowed to play a PDGA tourney.

If that is the case for you then you need to get some thicker skin or not run a PDGA sanctioned event.

The rules allows for all members IN GOOD STANDING to be allowed to play a PDGA sanctioned tourney.

Well I am known for my cockiness and arrogance, but I'm still at a young age and enjoying my life way to much to settle and be modest. Very hard to be when your mother raised you to be the best and trample over everyone at every chance.


are you still the president of the Bowling Green Club? <font color="blue"> [personal attack deleted] </font>

td's should have the power to ban anyone they so choose, i'm glad i don't run events in public parks anymore so i can fall back on the "trespassing" loophole should i want to. (there are 2 players who i guarantee will not play in any event i run- they probably don't even know it. one of them could get in with an apology but the other is completely done.)

Well I am known for my cockiness and arrogance, but I'm still at a young age and enjoying my life way to much to settle and be modest. Very hard to be when your mother raised you to be the best and trample over everyone at every chance.


are you still the president of the Bowling Green Club? <font color="blue"> [personal attack deleted] </font>



Nooooo! That was last year and that year only. I only took the position because no one else wanted it but it had to be filled as per our by laws. I was more of a symbolic and In Name Only presence. But thanks for the personal attack Dave. Remind me to report you.

It takes the bias out of the equation. The PDGA is blind, just like jsutice is, when irt comes to running tourneys.

Just because you have a beef with someone, doesn't mean that he/she is not allowed to play a PDGA tourney.

If that is the case for you then you need to get some thicker skin or not run a PDGA sanctioned event.

The rules allows for all members IN GOOD STANDING to be allowed to play a PDGA sanctioned tourney.


But what if it's not a personal beef? Are you suggesting that the PDGA knows about all issues with local players? If someone hasn't been reported to the PDGA, then how would the PDGA know about the issue that could cause them to get banned?

I know that not all TDs are going to make the right call every time. but I do think that there are plenty of TDs with the ability to know when it is appropriate to ban a player from an event. If the PDGA's rules do not allow for the TD to make a call like that... then the PDGA is wrong. I think many people are forgetting that the PDGA is not all-powerful and all-knowing. There is more to disc golf than the PDGA. An event, call it "The Anytown Open", is an event with or without the PDGA. The club in Anytown should be making decisions about this event, not the PDGA. The TD running the event should have full and utter control over how it runs. This is his or her responsibility, not the PDGA's. The PDGA adds very little to the event other than a set of rules. They do get paid handsomely... but that is a different topic.

I'd still like to hear an official word from the PDGA, but I can say that if it's true... I'll probably sanction my future events with another organization.

If an infraction is significant enough that you think a PDGA member should be banned from your PDGA sanctioned tournament, then go through the disciplinary process so that other TDs benefit from your wisdom.

Odd that any player a TD wishes to ban, would push the issue and demand entrance where he's not wanted.

Being a TD is not like jury duty---the TD can go non-sanctioned or just not have the event at all. In view of the tremendous amount of work any TD is undertaking just to make a tournament happen, I'd rather keep the TD happy than one player with a grievance.

Exceptions perhaps for the Worlds, majors, and/or NT events---but at lower tiers, players have plenty of other events to choose from.

Remind me to report you.


your being very undude

But thanks for the personal attack


Still calmer than you are

Well I am known for my cockiness and arrogance,


This is our concern dude

but I'm still at a young age and enjoying my life


That must be exhausting

You could say the war is over


your phone's ringing dude

Very hard to be when your mother raised you to be the best and trample over everyone at every chance.


and she peed on your rug

I was President


so that is what you call me. that or his dudeness or duder or el duderino if your not into that whole brevaty thing

Relentless!!!

Dave, you have a PM unrelated to this battle.

no pm please resend. That's a bumber man.

This is a very funny thread.

I just sent it.

You could say the war is over


your phone's ringing dude



Yes, I'll be at practice.

over the line! sorry smokey, you were over the line. Mark it zero dude.

over the line! sorry smokey, you were over the line. Mark it zero dude.



This is not 'Nam, Smokey. This is bowling. There are rules.

Well I am known for my cockiness and arrogance,


I think it is a palmerianian. i am watching it while marty and cindy akerman are in Hawaii.

i am not buying it a beer dude...... it's not taking your turn.

I just sent it.


Just got it marc. and we can definetly work something out!

the dude abides

You could say the war is over


your phone's ringing dude


thank you, donny

JD you really should get a SN that fits you better. You more closely resemble a Donny character, or maybe the Jesus man... Eight year olds dude

[edited due to profanity]

JD you really should get a SN that fits you better. You more closely resemble a Donny character, or maybe the Jesus man... Eight year olds dude



More like Walter biting the ear off the nihilist.

nobody f***s wit de jesus


I'm throwin rocks tonight

oh and dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature

The guy personally apologized to me today so yeah, I won.




Posted 3/15/08 on the Bowling Green Tournament thread:



Please note: JD Hazel "Son of The Dude" does not represent Bowling Green Disc Golf Club, in any way shape or form. If you want accurate information about our tournaments, please go to our website, and hit the contact button.

Bowling Green Disc Golf Club Inc.



And JD's reply:


Dont worry, Josh Dobelstein, after this tournament and BG Open I'm through with all of you.




This must be one of the benefits of winning.

But do you know the details that have happened between then and now? And the answer is no, you don't, so I would strongly advise getting off the high horse.

But do you know the details that have happened between then and now? And the answer is no, you don't, so I would strongly advise getting off the high horse.



I only re-posted what was made public on the message board. Would you like to provide more details?

Why can't we let this thread die?

the bums lose! the bums will always lose, sir!

The old man said I could take any rug in the house. :D

We had a similar situation in our league not so long ago. This kind of nonsense hurts the league as a whole. It amazes me that disc golf the funnest thing ever can create such hostilities and criminitys. Maybe all should consider what is better for your league. You don't have to like who you play with just respect that you both like to play. I mean if everybody plays disc golf how bad could they be?

Why can't we let this thread die?



It was dead until Discette had to brought it back up.

Nice marmot, man....... :cool:

obviously, your not a golfer...



:D

Do yo see a ring on my finger? the seats up man.

Hey, at least I'm housebroken.

that rug really tied the room together, dude

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha! quoting coen brothers movies on a disc golf forum is really cool! kudos to you and all of you spare time on the internet!

Cudos? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cudos)
or
Kudos? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudos)

Thanks for the new vocabulary word, dude.

We threw a ringer for a ringer!

i have no idea what you're talking about.

Can a TD make a tournament make an invitation only tournament and use a public course, or can any member of the PDGA who is in good standing still walk up to the registration booth and sign up regardless??

whats up Hazel....

Clubs do this all the time.

Now since you mentioned being in good standing with the PDGA, if its a PDGA sanctioned event, that im not so sure about.

My guess would be that it would have to be an open invitational, meaning that anyone could play certain events to get an invitation. case in point, USDGC.

I dont think that the PDGA would let a TD be carte blanche with who is allowed to play at a tournament.

what kind of craziness are you planning in Bowling Green?

and on a side note, what is up with the Nats tournament and Nats Sporting Goods wanting to be the only sponsor? that made me not want to attend knowing they didnt want the possibility to be the main sponsor and grow the event even bigger. that simple act or greed and/or unwillingness on Nats part may have turned those sponsors away from future events like BG Ams.

You can get a certain level of restriction without running qualifying events such as an event called the Kentucky Masters limited to players over age 39 with residence in KY.

If the implied intent of your question is whether there's a way to exclude a specific PDGA member in good standing from a PDGA sanctioned event, the person would either have to not qualify as part of the restricted population/division(s) included in the event or the event would have to be on private property. At least those are the historical examples I can think of that would answer your question.

whats up Hazel....

Clubs do this all the time.

Now since you mentioned being in good standing with the PDGA, if its a PDGA sanctioned event, that im not so sure about.

My guess would be that it would have to be an open invitational, meaning that anyone could play certain events to get an invitation. case in point, USDGC.

I dont think that the PDGA would let a TD be carte blanche with who is allowed to play at a tournament.

what kind of craziness are you planning in Bowling Green?

and on a side note, what is up with the Nats tournament and Nats Sporting Goods wanting to be the only sponsor? that made me not want to attend knowing they didnt want the possibility to be the main sponsor and grow the event even bigger. that simple act or greed and/or unwillingness on Nats part may have turned those sponsors away from future events like BG Ams.

Wanting to get a bunch of friends together in the future for an event, but only people I know for like an XC Tier event.

On the Nat's thing, yeah it's BS. I had over $1000 in sponsors, a players party, and all kinds of things planned, but Nat wanted total exclusive rights to the tournament which meant no other sponsors allowed, so I dropped out as TD.

what about restricting a tournament to "pdga members only" even though it is not an "a tier"? would that be allowed? or having the non-members compete in a "non-member only", or "trophy only" division, where the winner would recieve a one year paid membership.

i ask this because in my area, there are a lot of "rec" players who are not pdga members, and willingly admit that they will never join the pdga or move up, so they can continue to play rec and win all the local tournaments. that way they can spend $20-$30 on a stack of plastic.

Nonmembers are not automatically "Rec players." TDs can place nonmembers in whatever division they feel is fair.

Nonmembers are not automatically "Rec players." TDs can place nonmembers in whatever division they feel is fair.

i know they are not automatically rec players. that's just what the majority, not all, of them sign up as.

so a td CAN move them up to intermediate if they feel that is the division that player should be in? or just offer it to them? and if that player doesn't want to move up, can the td refuse their entry?

sorry for so many questions. i plan on running tournaments eventually, and want fair play/odds for everyone, especially the ones who play their division and get beat out constantly by those who "bag" on purpose.

so a td CAN move them up to intermediate if they feel that is the division that player should be in? or just offer it to them? and if that player doesn't want to move up, can the td refuse their entry?

If a player is a nonmember, the TD can limit their participation into whatever division the TD feels is fair whether Intermediate, Advanced or even Open. If the player refuses, it's their choice not to play.

If a player is a nonmember, the TD can limit their participation into whatever division the TD feels is fair whether Intermediate, Advanced or even Open. If the player refuses, it's their choice not to play.

wow you respond fast...

thanks for the heads up... i just like to know what i have to look forward to. provided i'm actually able to do this.

I think you're worrying too much about a largely non-existent phenomenon. It has not happened at the tournaments where you've played. I looked at a dozen other Texas B and C tiers and could not find any instance of a non-member winning in Rec by shooting scores that were higher than rec rated on the average. The non-members I saw finishing well in Rec would not be earning intermediate ratings if they were members.

It seems a few complainers are spoiling it for the rest of us. Here in Des Moines, the club has no interest in hosting an NT anymore and a big reason is the voice of a couple people who did nothing but complain at the last event.

Does a TD have the right to refuse entry for players they do not wish to VOLUNTEER for?

If they don't, they should.

Only PDGA events on private property where the owner wishes to control access. Otherwise, current PDGA members in good standing have to be allowed access if their division is offered. That ruling was made a few years ago.

Can you define "good standing"?

Current and not formally suspended by the Disciplinary Committee.

Can you define "good standing"?
I believe "good standing" means their membership is current (paid) and they're not on the disciplinary list (suspension).

I understand where you and your club are coming from with regard to losing patience with certain segments of the disc golf community. It's an unfortunate trend that seems to be getting worse every year. I've seen too many volunteers chased off by these selfish folks, and know plenty more that are pretty close to walking as well. Sadly, it's the only option to avoid the headaches.

Only PDGA events on private property where the owner wishes to control access. Otherwise, current PDGA members in good standing have to be allowed access if their division is offered. That ruling was made a few years ago.

What about USDGC & Player's Cup? Just make the event an invitational and invite everyone but those in question.

If you really want a player not to be involved in your event, make it difficult for 'im. Only accept his pre-reg (of course you have the right to refuse 'morning of' registrations), then insist on a compliance check (i.e., inspecting & weighing every disc in his bag) when/if he shows up. Maybe have a friend in the sheriff's office bring his doggie over for a sniff-check of the player's car & bag. If that doesn't work, assign a particularly czar-ish marshall to his card with instructions to call it 100% by the book, of course making sure the player gets the least desirable tee time/starting hole. Insist on to-the-letter compliance with all obscure rules, including dress code. Look for a particularly persnickety park or property regulation that he cannot help but break, then DQ him on the spot. Etc.…

The possibilities are endless & foolproof, if you have the fortitude to be serious about it & follow through.

What about USDGC & Player's Cup? Just make the event an invitational and invite everyone but those in question.

Lets say you wanted to exclude me - Just invite PDGA #'s 1-10443 and 10445 and higher. :)

Not much could be done about it I assume, but it seems like if I let people who complain worry me, I'd never run Events.

I'd just ask them what days they'll be on vacation out of state - and then run it when they're gone. :)

That's what they do in GA when they don't want me to play in thier Events - they schedule them when they know I'm historically out of town for Events I travel to. ;)

That's cuz yer a bada$$!! :)

Perhaps 'good standing' should be extended to also being in good standing with the people offering the event.

Just tell him to kick rocks, PDGA suggested guidelines be damned. Your problem will be solved & I'll bet the ranch that the anemic wrist-slap (if any) delivered by the PDGA schoolmarm won't even raise a welt.

If you really want a player not to be involved in your event, make it difficult for 'im. Only accept his pre-reg (of course you have the right to refuse 'morning of' registrations), then insist on a compliance check (i.e., inspecting & weighing every disc in his bag) when/if he shows up. Maybe have a friend in the sheriff's office bring his doggie over for a sniff-check of the player's car & bag. If that doesn't work, assign a particularly czar-ish marshall to his card with instructions to call it 100% by the book, of course making sure the player gets the least desirable tee time/starting hole. Insist on to-the-letter compliance with all obscure rules, including dress code. Look for a particularly persnickety park or property regulation that he cannot help but break, then DQ him on the spot. Etc.�

You can't legally do that to someone unless you are doing it to all, and how awesome would that be!

I dream of the day where a player steps on or over, or a foot and a half to the side of, their marker on a fairway run-up shot; get's called for a foot-fault; and then simply looks down and says to themselves (at worst) "awww eff me" and takes the warning or stroke with no argument because they broke the rule and moves on with play.

But you can't pick one guy/gal out of 144 and go out of your way to enforce every stance and courtesy rule while you're letting 143 people throw illegal discs while drinking beer out of their water bottles and missing their mark on every other throw. That just doesn't work no matter how jerky the one person is.

So are there any guidelines to running "invitationals"? I'm quite serious. I'm looking to run a large event in 2011 and I have no desire to have certain individuals attend the event. Does the PDGA have a list of what I can do and what I can't do in terms of running an "invitational".

Why not just tell that person that you don't want him (or her) at your tournament? Is it someone you think will show up anyway, just to make a point?

Can a TD refuse a current PDGA member in good standing entry to a sanctioned event, just because they don't like them? Tournament was not on private property. What is the punishment for this action, if any?

Not allowed on public courses. However, if the Park Dept wishes to deny a player based on whatever reasons they might have then that ban can be upheld. Contact PDGA HQ (Gentry) to find out about what can or should be done.

already turned complaint in to PDGA office....and the player in question is in good standing with the parks and rec departmnt.....just wondering how the PDGA handles similar cases in the past.

HB isn't a dummy and the tournament was far from full. In spite of what the
PDGA rule might be I could see turning away a player that you caught stealing your merch, cheating on their score or engaging in behavior that could jeopardize the future of the tournament. I suspect that it had nothing to do with the player's gender.

My prediction: When the PDGA hears HB's side of the story, nothing happens.

A restaraunt can refuse to serve a person if they have been trouble in the past. A bar can refuse to let a person enter. If the person has been a jerk, the TD should be able to say, "Sorry, I don't want your business." Period.

Business is a two way street, either party can terminate it by chosing not to be a part. If the person in question has to run to the PDGA office on something like this, it may be shedding light on a bigger issue.

Hi Bruce, his beef is with me....if he really wanted us not be allowed to play his tournaments, he can petition the PDGA when he fills out his sanctioning request....not try to emberass my wife in front of everybody...the other 3 women who were going to play were so mad, they left and all went to play another course for fun.

Hope you are doing well!!

PS. I did not attend the tournament to avoid any potential conflict, but when my wife came home upset....I went up there...under control....simply reminded him of the PDGA rule (current/good standing) and asked him to let by gones be by gones.....he then got abusive and called the cops on me.....after 20 minutes...I was allowed to stay and watch the tournament....very petty

Adding to above, in some cases the issue could be the TD themselves, hence the complaint procedure. If the refusals to participate are coming from personal beefs as opposed to legitimate concerns, and the complaints of such are noted enough, the PDGA could consider the TD unfit to organize sanctioned tournaments.

More than one person complaining that things weren't handled properly would help. Of course the ultimate consumer power of people refusing to patronize the business to the point it no longer exists is always an option.

A google search on "right to refuse service" provides some interesting perspectives on the issue.

A counter argument might be that a TD has a choice to sanction, or not. In sanctioning he agrees to the rules, including the "Accept Everyone" rule.

And that without the "Accept Everyone" rule, TDs could give preferential treatment in events that fill, or exclude a large number of people for personal reasons, and where that would lead.

Just playing Devil's Advocate, of course. I'm a TD and can imagine a situation where I refuse entry to someone, regardless of PDGA sanctions. I can think of one or two people who might qualify. Nowadays I'm just TDing on a private course.

Of course, in the specific example I have no idea of the details. I have a hard time imagining insisting on entry to an event where I was so unwanted as to be refused entry by the TD, though.

I think that falls into the part about the PDGA determining that the TD was no longer fit to run tournaments if participants were being refused for personal reasons or if they greatly abused the 'first come first served' process. One would hope that the refusal would be due to concern over the safety of others or their property or concern that the experience of other participants would be adversely affected.

Concerning preferential treatment for events that fill, I think we all have seen instances of that. A different subject, but a common occurrance whether it be holding spots for touring players or keeping a spot for that buddy who hasn't gotten around to registering.

My prediction: When the PDGA hears the story, nothing happens.


Proper correction has been made to your statement. :D

I believe Gentry plans to be at the BG Ams event so some resolution might occur then.

Hi Bruce, his beef is with me....if he really wanted us not be allowed to play his tournaments, he can petition the PDGA when he fills out his sanctioning request....not try to emberass my wife in front of everybody...the other 3 women who were going to play were so mad, they left and all went to play another course for fun.

Hope you are doing well!!

PS. I did not attend the tournament to avoid any potential conflict, but when my wife came home upset....I went up there...under control....simply reminded him of the PDGA rule (current/good standing) and asked him to let by gones be by gones.....he then got abusive and called the cops on me.....after 20 minutes...I was allowed to stay and watch the tournament....very petty

This story supports my comment in the thread about cancelling events. Mature people are in the minority in disc golf.

It is unfortunate that the guy made a scene in front of other people. You could sue him.

Hi Bruce, his beef is with meI'm sorry to hear that the two of you have that serious of an issue between you. I hope you can work it out. You both have seemed like fine people when I've met you.

Can you define "good standing"?

Current and not formally suspended by the Disciplinary Committee.

I think that this should some how be expanded. maybe for the true trouble makers make a rule were the state coordinator can also decide if a player is in good standing. his decision can then later be up held or denied by the committee. if denied that player has the right to play from then on unless the committee makes a new ruling.

but from the sounds of the situation at hand it sounds really petty. as much as i may hate someone i would not deny them or their friends/relatives access to my tournament/event. the only way is if i seriously thought my health and well-being was at stake. very doubtful considering the general attitude of the competitive disc golf community.