I know everyone knows that Innova is planning on changing the USDGC into a every other year event which is a huge mistake. Nate Doss has started a petition to try and keep the event an annual event. Please sign the petition:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/usdgc/

If the link doesnt take you directly to the petition just type USDGC in the search bar. Sorry if this has been posted eslewhere on this board. I looked but didnt find it anywhere.

So this thread has been view over 130 times but the vote count has only gone up by about 10 votes. So do most of you not care about the change?

Just signed it!

I think the PDGA should care and work to get a US title available every year, but with respects to Innova it's their call. If they can make a higher quality event by making the change then they should.

: ) :

I think the PDGA should care and work to get a US title available every year, but with respects to Innova it's their call. If they can make a higher quality event by making the change then they should.

: ) :

How will it be better by changing it to every other year? How will that make it a more quality event? Would the super bowl or world series be better if they were every other year? No, more people will be likely to forget about them. It is innova's call but that doesnt mean we have to like it or go along with it. And if we dont we should at least voice our opinion on the matter about it. It may accomplish nothing but doing nothing will definately get nothing accomplished.

Just signed it!

Thanks sir!

"...more people will be likely to forget about them."

people don't seem to forget about the olympics (every 4 years), america's cup (every 3ish years), or the ryder cup (every other year, alternating continents). what makes you think people would suddenly forget about the most prestigious event in our sport? an extra year would give the organizers more time to raise funds and prepare for the next event. i'm not saying i agree with the change, but i understand where they're coming from.

"...more people will be likely to forget about them."

people don't seem to forget about the olympics (every 4 years), america's cup (every 3ish years), or the ryder cup (every other year, alternating continents). what makes you think people would suddenly forget about the most prestigious event in our sport? an extra year would give the organizers more time to raise funds and prepare for the next event. i'm not saying i agree with the change, but i understand where they're coming from.\

100% Agree.

And let's not forget, there are TONS more benefits of having an am event rather than a pro event which can proven by that am worlds is always wanted more by clubs than pro worlds.

"...more people will be likely to forget about them."

people don't seem to forget about the olympics (every 4 years), america's cup (every 3ish years), or the ryder cup (every other year, alternating continents). what makes you think people would suddenly forget about the most prestigious event in our sport? an extra year would give the organizers more time to raise funds and prepare for the next event. i'm not saying i agree with the change, but i understand where they're coming from.

It was intended to be hyperbolic to illistrate a point. They may not forget about it but it will certainly have to be taken less seriously. The thing is that they wont have time to prepare or gather more funds because they are going to be busy using that time and funds for european events instead. Why should pushing european disc golf come at the price of this event going to every other year. Bottom line is all of the upper level pro players I have talked to think it is a terrible idea. All of the local players I have talked to think it is a terrible idea. Arent these events supposed to be for the players and fans? If neither group wants this change why should it happen? Understanding where there are coming from doesnt make it a good decision or one that fans and players shouldnt voice their opinion over.

\

100% Agree.

And let's not forget, there are TONS more benefits of having an am event rather than a pro event which can proven by that am worlds is always wanted more by clubs than pro worlds.

So you would rather have some AM event than the most prestegious disc golf event there is? What are the benifits? You can go to an Am event anytime anywhere. You cant always go see the worlds best players competing at the same tournament at this level. By that logic why dont golfers rally to have the US open every other year so they can have an am tournament? No one I ahve talked to is in favor of this and none of the pros I have talked to are on board.

No one I ahve talked to ...

Maybe try talking to the people at Innova / USDGC. I suspect they have a fairly good idea what they're doing.

It is Innova's game, they can make the call. Sounds like the pros are just complaining because someone moved their cheese.
As an am, I would consider attending to compete next year, would never take the time to watch the pros play, anywhere.

get over it

Maybe try talking to the people at Innova / USDGC. I suspect they have a fairly good idea what they're doing.

So you have talked to these people? I have actually tried to contact innova but they cant be bothered to respond. It seems like everyone is forgetting that we are Innova's customer base. Is that irrelevent to all of you? The whole reason that they get to do anything is becasue we buy their products. Should are opinion regarding these issues mean nothing? Should the people (the pro players) who are the center and purpose for these events mean nothing? Because you seem to think so and seem to agree with Innova telling them and the other players/fans that they dont care what they want.

It is Innova's game, they can make the call. Sounds like the pros are just complaining because someone moved their cheese.
As an am, I would consider attending to compete next year, would never take the time to watch the pros play, anywhere.

get over it
steve timm

Well then you obviously feel that your skills are limited and dont have any aspirations of one day competing with the big boys or at a prestigious tournament. If you would never take the time to watch the pros play why compete at all? If you dont pay attention to what pro players do then you can never see how far the game can be taken or what is possible on the golf course. By the way their "Cheese" wont be taken. They will just have to go to europe to get it where most of us cant go (including most of the upcoming pros who wont be able to afford to go).

If the people that run the USDGC have decided they want to make it biennial, then that's the way it's going to be. Who are you to tell them how to run their event? Who is anyone to tell them when or how often they have to run their event?

If you don't like how an event is run, step up and run your own event and show them how to do it "right". Instead of wasting your time and energy crying and begging, do something constructive with all that energy. Waaaaay too much "me me me me" in this sport. Too much "me me me me" in the world, frankly. Give it a rest already.

Man-MT-hat,

I said they MOVED the cheese. Reading comprehension is easier than an 320' S curve. Go ahead and tell me how I feel. Put down my skills and aspirations while you are at it. The pros are fun to watch for about 15 minutes, over an entire round. The 25-29 seconds they take on most shots is as interesting as watching the latex harden on my ceiling. Those guys are great role models too, HA!

Innova is a fine company and yes, you are a customer. Innova is quite busy making products and shipping them out to all the distributors. The ams drive their bottom line by a large margin over the extreme effort and headache that goes into the USDGC.

Your words "Should are opinion regarding these issues mean nothing? Should the people (the pro players) who are the center and purpose for these events mean nothing?"

Yes, your (are) opinion is just that, yours. You and the players that consider themselves the center and purpose seem self centered and immature.

Good points jconnell!

If the people that run the USDGC have decided they want to make it biennial, then that's the way it's going to be. Who are you to tell them how to run their event? Who is anyone to tell them when or how often they have to run their event?

If you don't like how an event is run, step up and run your own event and show them how to do it "right". Instead of wasting your time and energy crying and begging, do something constructive with all that energy. Waaaaay too much "me me me me" in this sport. Too much "me me me me" in the world, frankly. Give it a rest already.

Absolutely.

Those complaining are free to create their own USDGC.

But beware---if you devote thousands of dollars and hours and resources to it and succeed, one day someone will insist that you have committed yourself to doing every year, forever.

Anyway you slice it disc golf just took a huge
hit by losing this tournament. It's a shame.
The USDGC is an event that make ams turn
pro. People in my town fight hard all year trying
to qualify. The loss of this tournament will hurt
other tournaments.

For example my usual crew won't be going to
The Memorial this year. No USDGC spots to fight
for. That really is something that brings fringe type
pros to events. Have been to The Memorial 3 times.
It just won't be the same on the NT.

Anyway you slice it disc golf just took a huge
hit by losing this tournament. It's a shame.
The USDGC is an event that make ams turn
pro. People in my town fight hard all year trying
to qualify. The loss of this tournament will hurt
other tournaments.

For example my usual crew won't be going to
The Memorial this year. No USDGC spots to fight
for. That really is something that brings fringe type
pros to events. Have been to The Memorial 3 times.
It just won't be the same on the NT.

Wow! Someone who gets it. I hope you signed the petition.

I must be getting senile....I remember the first USDGC, and it seems the Memorial was a big deal, even before the USDGC.

Here's to hoping the Players Cup will rise up as a prestigious annual event for top pros, to compliment the alternating-year USDGC.

The growth of this sport doesn't hinge on one tournament that caters to a small group of touring pros. Sorry but that's a fact. This move will not slow the growth or do any significant damage.

Just look at the numbers. 13000 +/- active PDGA members. 190 USDGC competitors. Maybe 2000 to 3000 spectators both at the event and following online coverage.

Compared with apoximately 4,000,000 people who play or have played Disc Golf. 99.9% of Innova's customers are folks who could care less about the USDGC or the touring pros. The casual players. Thier only concerns with Disc Golf are getting together with thier buddies next weekend for a fun round at thier local course. These are the folks who represent the growth.

The fact that they are considering an Am only event every other year shows that Innova is thinking about the bigger picture. Sammy said something about not traveling to try and qualify for the pro side. That's his choice. Offer an Am event and his lack of participation will be offset by larger fields of ams trying to qualify. I'm thinking the Monday / Saturday qualifier will be so huge with Am only that they may have to make it a 2 day event. Ams make up the largest percentage of tournament players anyways. Why not reward thier participation with something other than being donators to the pro purse.

Plus if they do business like a normal tournament, then that's just extra cash from the ams that could go to the pros for the alternating years. Maybe a PRO USDGC with a $100,000 + payout is a possability.

I haven't followed this closely, but has there been any public reasons given behind the bi-year move? I just assumed it was the amount of work necessary to pull off such an event, but that can't be the case since the event isn't really going bi-yearly: it is still yearly, just catering to a different group.

Read the press release which is post 4 on this thread:
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=33620

Thanks Chuck.

I'll be curious to see just how this tournament is structured.

Maybe Discraft can have an event every other year to fill in the blanks. Easy way to get equal time. They could have it on the Toboggan course.

If pushing Am tournaments is the way to go why hasnt the PGA taken the US open and turned it into an every other year event and put on an Am tournement? It is because that isnt the way to go. Of course ams are the larger part of this sport and that goes for every sport but exposure to any sport is from the people at the top of the game not at the bottom or middle. People arent inspired to want to excel at a sport becasue they see some mediocre player in some Am tournement but they might be by seeing the best the sport has to offer. There are no shortage of big AM tournaments to play in anyways so there is no need to sacrifice this one for another one. That also isnt the reason Innova has given for changing this anyways it was just something being considered to fill the gap.

If pushing Am tournaments is the way to go why hasnt the PGA taken the US open and turned it into an every other year event and put on an Am tournement?
Because it makes money. The USDGC does not nor do any pro only DG events. How about that for a simple explanation?

It seems like everyone is forgetting that we are Innova's customer base.

2% of disc sales are to tournament golfers. We are NOT Innova's customer base.

Every 4 years seems to work OK for the Olympic Games & World Cup (arguably the two most "exposed" sporting events on the planet), so I think the USDGC should dispense with the incremental dilly-dallying & switch to a quadrennial schedule ASAP.

If pushing Am tournaments is the way to go why hasnt the PGA taken the US open and turned it into an every other year event and put on an Am tournement? It is because that isnt the way to go. Of course ams are the larger part of this sport and that goes for every sport but exposure to any sport is from the people at the top of the game not at the bottom or middle. People arent inspired to want to excel at a sport becasue they see some mediocre player in some Am tournement but they might be by seeing the best the sport has to offer. There are no shortage of big AM tournaments to play in anyways so there is no need to sacrifice this one for another one. That also isnt the reason Innova has given for changing this anyways it was just something being considered to fill the gap.


They PGA doesn't run the US Open. The USGA does. In fact,they actually run more major amateur championships (10) to pro championships (3).

Here's a question for you. Suppose Innova decides to let a club host the USDGC in the off years. What are the benefits to a club of hosting this event?

Well then you obviously feel that your skills are limited and dont have any aspirations of one day competing with the big boys or at a prestigious tournament. If you would never take the time to watch the pros play why compete at all? If you dont pay attention to what pro players do then you can never see how far the game can be taken or what is possible on the golf course. By the way their "Cheese" wont be taken. They will just have to go to europe to get it where most of us cant go (including most of the upcoming pros who wont be able to afford to go).

Seems you have fallen into the trap of making huge generalizations without any factual support. Don't feel bad. It happens to the best of us.

I don't know how old you are, but I remember back in 1966 there was this really popular music group that decided not to do live shows anymore and only do studio work for the last few years before they broke up. The public complained and many predicted it would be the end of their popularity. However, they remained successful. They are still very well known as The Beatles.

With The Beatles, it was their band and their lives and they made the call. Don't like it? Sorry to hear that. Too bad. Same with USDGC. The suggestion up thread that you put efforts into an alternative event to fill in the perceived vacuum of high-profile events is good advice. Rather presumptuous for a member of the public to claim any kind of ownership interest in USDGC when it is run by a private company.

Because it makes money. The USDGC does not nor do any pro only DG events. How about that for a simple explanation?

Kennedy goes up for the shot, BAM - it's a slam dunk!!!! Or as we say in the music business.....

Ba-dump-dump.

Extrememly well said with efficiency!

They PGA doesn't run the US Open. The USGA does. In fact,they actually run more major amateur championships (10) to pro championships (3).

Here's a question for you. Suppose Innova decides to let a club host the USDGC in the off years. What are the benefits to a club of hosting this event?

I think some people here don't realize that the PDGA doesn't run tournaments at all. It creates a structure but tournaments, from the USDGC down to your local C-tier, are run by volunteers. The PDGA isn't going to run the USDGC or USDGO or any such thing, nor can they "make it happen".

I can understand the concerns regarding crowning a U.S. Champion each year separate from the USDGC event itself. It wouldn't surprise me if there are people out there thinking about proposing an alternative event to at least crown the U.S. Champion in the off years of the USDGC. We'll have to see if that materializes. After all, events like the match play Players Cup came out of nowhere from a private initiative.

[QUOTE=Furthur;1439633]They PGA doesn't run the US Open. The USGA does. [QUOTE]

Don't forget about this US Open:
http://www.usopen.org/en_US/about/history/index.html?promo=topnav

...or this US Open:
http://www.usopen-karate.com/

...or this US Open:
http://www.usopenofsurfing.com/

...or this US Open:
http://www.usopenswingdc.com/

...or this US Open:
http://www.opensnowboarding.com/Home.aspx?openid=USO

...or this US Open:
http://www.usopen9ballchampionships.com/

I think some people here don't realize that the PDGA doesn't run tournaments at all. It creates a structure but tournaments, from the USDGC down to your local C-tier, are run by volunteers. The PDGA isn't going to run the USDGC or USDGO or any such thing, nor can they "make it happen".

No, I totally understand that. I was part of the group that helped run KC Worlds, so I'm very aware of what the PDGA does and does not do in running a major. Hence the reason why I said Innova lets a club run it, because, in the end, if it did happen, that's how it would work

Because it makes money. The USDGC does not nor do any pro only DG events. How about that for a simple explanation?

Exposure for the sport is what is going to keep the sport viable. Exposure will come through the pro players. If there is ever going to be a disc golf event on TV is will be the pros, not the ams. If they will keep pushing major PDGA events they could make money. Also how do you know they dont make any money off of the USDGC? What is your source for that? No one has asked but I am an AM player.

Seems you have fallen into the trap of making huge generalizations without any factual support. Don't feel bad. It happens to the best of us.

I don't know how old you are, but I remember back in 1966 there was this really popular music group that decided not to do live shows anymore and only do studio work for the last few years before they broke up. The public complained and many predicted it would be the end of their popularity. However, they remained successful. They are still very well known as The Beatles.

With The Beatles, it was their band and their lives and they made the call. Don't like it? Sorry to hear that. Too bad. Same with USDGC. The suggestion up thread that you put efforts into an alternative event to fill in the perceived vacuum of high-profile events is good advice. Rather presumptuous for a member of the public to claim any kind of ownership interest in USDGC when it is run by a private company.


How can you even begin to attempt to draw a parallel between a sporting event and band? That is a terrible analogy. Believe me, if I didnt already own and operate a business I would consider attempting to run an event however Im not a large business who is the number 1 producer of disc golf discs so I am hardly in the position that innova is so would not be able to replicate that level of tournament.

Since you support this petition, who's going to run the event?

1. Is Innova going to do it?
2. Is the PDGA going to do it?
3. Is a city/club of disc golfers going to do it?
4. Is a private entity going to do it?

I'm all for saving the USDGC and having it run every year, but Innova isn't going to do it, and the PDGA can't force them to. The PDGA runs no actual events. So I assume it's down to the last 2 options?

That's loser talk, iwishiwashunglikedrmanhattan. You are not a large business who is the number 1 producer of internet griping, but you're doing a fine job of producing internet crybabiness that is at least at a Michelin 3-star level. Transfer that level of effort to learning about & making happen a major-tier disc golf tournament, and you'll be well on your way to a USDGC alternative - custom tailored to your specific liking - in your own back yard.

Steve Dodge did it from nothing (maybe not as nothing-y nothing as you seem to enjoy, but close enough); why can't you?

That's loser talk, iwishiwashunglikedrmanhattan. You are not a large business who is the number 1 producer of internet griping, but you're doing a fine job of producing internet crybabiness that is at least at a Michelin 3-star level. Transfer that level of effort to learning about & making happen a major-tier disc golf tournament, and you'll be well on your way to a USDGC alternative - custom tailored to your specific liking - in your own back yard.

Steve Dodge did it from nothing (maybe not as nothing-y nothing as you seem to enjoy, but close enough); why can't you?

There is no crying on my part. I have simply been trying to let people know about a petition started by a pro player to let innova know that people want this event to remain an annual one. The reponders to the thread have been the ones to act like I am unreasonable for supporting this effort and have been issuing attacks like yours.

How can you even begin to attempt to draw a parallel between a sporting event and band? That is a terrible analogy.

Because both the sporting event and the band have an international fan and consumer base that is effected by the decision.

Calling my analogy terrible is self-serving, a type of confirmation bias. Nonetheless, you are entitled to that opinion. My point was that though the public decried the decision, it was of no detriment as claimed when made. We know what happened with The Beatles. Time will tell if the USDGC will suffer. My prediction is that it will not.

Regards

Since you support this petition, who's going to run the event?

1. Is Innova going to do it?
2. Is the PDGA going to do it?
3. Is a city/club of disc golfers going to do it?
4. Is a private entity going to do it?

I'm all for saving the USDGC and having it run every year, but Innova isn't going to do it, and the PDGA can't force them to. The PDGA runs no actual events. So I assume it's down to the last 2 options?

The point was that if innova saw enough support for the event they might change their minds and keep doing it. That is all. That is why I want people to sign the petition. If they (innova) dont I wouldnt be opposed to someone like Discraft stepping up and doing it. The first step to any of it would be demonstrating the support through this petition and getting a final word from Innova after that. However most people here appear to want this sport to remain obscure and dedicated soley to AM players so it is probably a waste of time.

Because both the sporting event and the band have an international fan and consumer base that is effected by the decision.

Calling my analogy terrible is self-serving, a type of confirmation bias. Nonetheless, you are entitled to that opinion. My point was that though the public decried the decision, it was of no detriment as claimed when made. We know what happened with The Beatles. Time will tell if the USDGC will suffer. My prediction is that it will not.

Regards

The difference is the Beatles were already popular and Disc Golf is still very obscure. How would that decision have work out if they had done that before becoming popular? That is what is happening in this situation.

No, I totally understand that. I was part of the group that helped run KC Worlds, so I'm very aware of what the PDGA does and does not do in running a major. Hence the reason why I said Innova lets a club run it, because, in the end, if it did happen, that's how it would work

Apologies if I worded that poorly. I was trying to expand on your (good) points, and my "some people" should have been "some other people".

Guess I'll read the whole thread, then reply

The difference is the Beatles were already popular and Disc Golf is still very obscure. How would that decision have work out if they had done that before becoming popular? That is what is happening in this situation.


We're not talking about disc golf generally. We are talking about a specific, very popular event, the USDGC. If it was obscure, they probably wouldn't be doing this. Instead, it is so popular that perhaps it is a burden on resources to do it every year.

The point was that if innova saw enough support for the event they might change their minds and keep doing it. That is all. That is why I want people to sign the petition. If they (innova) dont I wouldnt be opposed to someone like Discraft stepping up and doing it. The first step to any of it would be demonstrating the support through this petition and getting a final word from Innova after that. However most people here appear to want this sport to remain obscure and dedicated soley to AM players so it is probably a waste of time.

If the USDGC isn't every year, I'm pretty sure the PDGA would more than welcome Discraft to hold a large, high payout tournament for pros only on a challenging course in those years. Innova has no say in that; the PDGA is just trying to fill it's calendar. They just can't call it the USDGC.

However most people here appear to want this sport to remain obscure and dedicated soley to AM players so it is probably a waste of time.

... or may feel that the sport will become 'less obscure' by putting more focus on the larger am base. Some of our best press and awareness comes from the am targeted events.

I'm looking forward to seeing what is done with the 2011 Am event. I suspect that it will do great things to promote the sport, but perhaps not the segment of the sport you are focused on.

I agree with Manhatten's sentiments, but imo, one shouldn't tell a company what to do. It is their choice. Instead, think of why they made the change. That insight might be worthy of discussion.

If people want to show Innova that this tournament is worth keeping then attend the event AND buy a ticket. Having a bunch of signatures from players isn't going to mean squat if it's like every year and only players and the same people from NC and SC, who get their tickets from Innova, attend. Believe me Innova isn't making money off this tournament. They are losing manpower due to tournament prep, spotters, marshalls, etc. Who's filling orders for Target, Walmart, etc during this time for players who never heard of Ken or Dave.

Exposure for the sport is what is going to keep the sport viable. Exposure will come through the pro players. If there is ever going to be a disc golf event on TV is will be the pros, not the ams. If they will keep pushing major PDGA events they could make money. Also how do you know they dont make any money off of the USDGC? What is your source for that? No one has asked but I am an AM player.
Where do you think the exposure for the sport comes now? Mostly the Internet, word of mouth among rec players and some media coverage in suburbs where they already have a course or are planning one. Many Park Directors could care less if their course was suited for pro play. It's a resource for community rec players. Only now that some events are bringing players to town are some interested in having a tournament level course. Pros have little impact in this area except for their presence if an NT comes to town and is actually promoted there.

I would say the vast number of DG video clips on YouTube, mostly not of pros, might be the biggest promoter of the sport these days. We're not on TV and don't really deserve to be on yet when we only can get a relatively small number of spectators to watch in person and so far few want to pay a legit price to watch online.

I'm guessing you have heard of the sport called softball but can't name a pro softball player other than maybe Jenny Finch. Softball is still more popular than DG with hardly any pro action and citizens seem to have little problem approving the expenditure of a few hundred grand on lighted fields. We need to focus on getting into schools to earn that kind of recognition and support for DG. For that to happen, the pros need to earn money by teaching, not competing.

Yes, I know enough about the USDGC financials from working with Harold on this and other projects at Innova. But anyone can do the math on a napkin and see the USDGC loses a bunch each year, even with the CFR income. The largest expense that people may overlook when calculating is probably the money paid to Innova employees who work several weeks as "volunteers" to run the event and the fewer number who work on it off and on throughout the year.

My explanation is not anti-USDGC at all. It's been a very important cog in the advancement of the sport at the highest level, establishing what's possible for the highest event quality and showcasing new risk/reward hole designs and rules. But I think Innova's choice to go to two years is their acknowledgement that the USDGC isn't the be-all and end-all for the survival of the sport. The ams have a just as much impact if not more on where we're headed.

We're not talking about disc golf generally. We are talking about a specific, very popular event, the USDGC. If it was obscure, they probably wouldn't be doing this. Instead, it is so popular that perhaps it is a burden on resources to do it every year.

Even a very popular Disc Golf event is still obscure. If it wasnt obscure they would be raking in cash by selling tickets to it and there would be no question about whether or not it would be put on. If you think disc golf isnt an obscure sport just go around to some non-disc golfers and ask it they know who Climo, Feldberg or some other top pros are. Hell, ask them if they know what disc golf is. Most people still dont and most that do dont consider a serious sport.

I agree with Manhatten's sentiments, but imo, one shouldn't tell a company what to do. It is their choice. Instead, think of why they made the change. That insight might be worthy of discussion.

Speculation follows:

Maybe it is a competitive business decision. The closest competition is Discraft, who runs the US Amateur Disc Golf Championships each year at the Toboggan course in Michigan in early June. 'Winthrop Ams' would be a year ending event Major for the amateurs run at arguably the most famous course in disc golf in odd numbered years.

I wonder what qualifying procedures will be created, what events may be qualifiers for the 'Winthrop Ams' and the added attendance that may be at those events.

I wonder how much more valuable the USDGC Rocs will be since they will be on a two year rotation. Or if there will be 'Winthrop Ams' Rocs.

And I wonder how much less rope will be used to define the fairways.

Kennedy goes up for the shot, BAM - it's a slam dunk!!!! Or as we say in the music business.....

Ba-dump-dump.

Extrememly well said with efficiency!

a very rare occurence....couldn't resist.

If Innova wants to make it a Triennial event, they can do it. Once a millenium, it's their right. They own the thing. Take as much humbrage as you want, sign any number of petitions, but they'll change it however they want to.

Complaints about the BUNCR sure made a lot of difference...not necessarily for the best, eh? It's their show.

I think some people here don't realize that the PDGA doesn't run tournaments at all. It creates a structure but tournaments, from the USDGC down to your local C-tier, are run by volunteers. The PDGA isn't going to run the USDGC or USDGO or any such thing, nor can they "make it happen".


1.True
2.True
3.True
4.True

Hats off to Innova for all the years and money the have put out for this event! We all owe you a big handshake!

It would be nice to see the PDGA figure out how to run and fund a national championship.

Any disc golf tournament, large or small, pro or am, is first and foremost a labor of love. People don't set out to run a tournament if they don't love the game.

However, there certainly comes a point where no matter how much love one has for the game, the benefits and rewards of running the event fail to outweigh the efforts put forth to make said event a reality. I have yet to encounter a TD who, if he/she has run an event or multiple events over the course of a few years, has not come to a point where they wonder if all their efforts are worth it anymore.

I'm not talking about financial gain or loss, I'm talking about physical, psychological and emotional gain or loss. I'm talking about frustration at not being able to please all the people all the time, or hearing one too many nit-picky, Monday morning quarterbacking whines from the peanut gallery before, during, and after an event. And having those kind of moments outweigh and outnumber the compliments and the rave reviews and the heartfelt thanks from players who attended and enjoyed the event. It's precisely these kinds of things that lead to what is commonly referred to as "TD burn-out".

It's a trend I'm starting to see more and more, and from what I've seen, TDs and club members are growing increasingly tired of just shrugging it off and continuing the grunt work that goes into making their courses and events what they are. Perhaps, just maybe, as great and prestigious an event as the USDGC has been and still is, the staff there is in that same boat. Busting their butts for months on end only to have the complaints and the negatives overshadow the compliments and the positives. Not necessarily that the negatives outnumber the positives, just that they are louder and harder to ignore. And at the end of the tournament, instead of basking in the after-glow, they're left scratching their heads and wondering if they really want to dive back into the months of prep required to do it all over again (I only help to run a small B-tier and a couple C-tiers and I find myself in that position more often than not).

So I'm challenging the players that are disappointed with the biennial decision at the USDGC to show with their actions why all the time and effort put into the event is 1000% worth it. I don't mean signing petitions or voicing opinions on a message board. I mean when you're on the course at Winthrop this week, play and act the professionals that you are supposed to be. Play with a smile on your face, not a scowl. Keep your opinion about how "stupid" you might think the stroke and distance OB penalty or the change on 14 or the elevated baskets or the tightened fairways or whatever else might be to yourself. Don't curse or kick your bag or whip your towel when things aren't going your way. Be respectful to the course, the staff, your fellow players, spectators. Thank with sincerity every volunteer you encounter. Make everything about the positive aspects of the event. Remember that NO ONE is entitled to anything and that just being a part of the event is an honor and a privilege, not a birthright.

Maybe then the powers that be at Innova and the USDGC will see that their efforts are worth it and the people they do it all for, the players, are worth it. Maybe then they'll hear the hue and cry for them to not "take away" the USDGC in odd years from now on, and continue the annual tradition that most of the disc golf world has apparently started to take for granted.

I have no idea if this has crossed any of the minds behind the USDGC, but it certainly has crossed mine as both a TD and as a player. Some things just suck all the fun out of the game, and it has to stop. This sport is way too small to be dominated by the spoiled and entitled, and it won't grow to the heights we desire if it is.

Lots of internet tough guy talk. Makes me laugh.
Nobody is downing all the hard work the TD does.
Some are pointing out that the sport looks to be
going the way of the AM. That is just pathetic, sorry
to offend. Soon we will be in the ranks of cornhole,
softball and adult kickball. Can't wait.

I have been playing disc golf for seven years. Long enough
to know that TD's do get burned out. Most TD's I know
don't own a business that grosses millions of dollars
through disc golf. The current set up of FORCING ams to
play for plastic instead of money only SECURES more business
to the plastic manufactures. It's not out of line to complain
a little bit when they drop the one tournament that is run
for the elite players of the game.

This argument is similar to the Worlds argument that happens
every year. Why not take a dime or quarter out of every players
fee that is paid to the PDGA and put it into a purse so the elite
players can battle for a real purse. This organization is supposed
to be run for the players. The current set up only pads the pocket
three or four disc manufacturers.

I personally am saddened by the direction the sport is heading.
Lots of mediocracy. Take care everyone.

Lots of internet tough guy talk. Makes me laugh.
Nobody is downing all the hard work the TD does.
Some are pointing out that the sport looks to be
going the way of the AM. That is just pathetic, sorry
to offend. Soon we will be in the ranks of cornhole,
softball and adult kickball. Can't wait.

I have been playing disc golf for seven years. Long enough
to know that TD's do get burned out. Most TD's I know
don't own a business that grosses millions of dollars
through disc golf. The current set up of FORCING ams to
play for plastic instead of money only SECURES more business
to the plastic manufactures. It's not out of line to complain
a little bit when they drop the one tournament that is run
for the elite players of the game.

This argument is similar to the Worlds argument that happens
every year. Why not take a dime or quarter out of every players
fee that is paid to the PDGA and put it into a purse so the elite
players can battle for a real purse. This organization is supposed
to be run for the players. The current set up only pads the pocket
three or four disc manufacturers.

I personally am saddened by the direction the sport is heading.
Lots of mediocracy. Take care everyone.
I think you're presuming an awful lot if you think any company is making "millions" in this game. Yes, the biggest companies like Innova and Discraft are making money, no question. But let's not pretend that they are running a recession proof business that's raking in higher and higher profits every year. They are probably affected just the same as any other company in this economy, and perhaps it is affecting their bottom lines.

But my point was really about the time and effort of so many people that in the end really only benefits a select few. And how often it is those select few from which they get the least appreciation and gratitude. My point is that perhaps the USDGC staff is seeing what I've seen in my small exposures to the highest level of play and come to the same conclusions I have...the ones the everyone works their butt off to prepare courses, organize big events, and raise sponsorship money for seem to be the most ungrateful for the effort. Perhaps they've decided that these select few pros don't deserve the effort if they're going to take it for granted or even find reason to complain.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some tournament organizers are just tired of hearing the little comments and complaints about this part of their tournament or that part of their course, then handing fat checks to the same folks making those comments. Perhaps instead of raising a few hundred or a few thousand dollars solely for the purpose of putting it in the pockets of a few, these clubs and TDs would rather invest the raised funds into the course or growing the sport locally.

Why is it that these "elite" are the ones that "deserve" everything? They are a very very very very very very small minority in the overall disc golf picture. Perhaps devoting a large percent of resources and effort into benefiting these few is NOT the way to grow the sport for the future.

Soon we will be in the ranks of cornhole,
softball and adult kickball. Can't wait.

Me neither.

Joining the ranks of softball, with the widespread recognition and parks departments spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on our facilities, will be great!

I think you're presuming an awful lot if you think any company is making "millions" in this game. Yes, the biggest companies like Innova and Discraft are making money, no question. But let's not pretend that they are running a recession proof business that's raking in higher and higher profits every year. They are probably affected just the same as any other company in this economy, and perhaps it is affecting their bottom lines.

But my point was really about the time and effort of so many people that in the end really only benefits a select few. And how often it is those select few from which they get the least appreciation and gratitude. My point is that perhaps the USDGC staff is seeing what I've seen in my small exposures to the highest level of play and come to the same conclusions I have...the ones the everyone works their butt off to prepare courses, organize big events, and raise sponsorship money for seem to be the most ungrateful for the effort. Perhaps they've decided that these select few pros don't deserve the effort if they're going to take it for granted or even find reason to complain.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some tournament organizers are just tired of hearing the little comments and complaints about this part of their tournament or that part of their course, then handing fat checks to the same folks making those comments. Perhaps instead of raising a few hundred or a few thousand dollars solely for the purpose of putting it in the pockets of a few, these clubs and TDs would rather invest the raised funds into the course or growing the sport locally.

Why is it that these "elite" are the ones that "deserve" everything? They are a very very very very very very small minority in the overall disc golf picture. Perhaps devoting a large percent of resources and effort into benefiting these few is NOT the way to grow the sport for the future.

I think it depends on which direction you want to grow the sport. If you want it to be some game that kids play before going to class that is a joke that no one takes seriously then Ams should be the focus. Hell if that is what people want why do we need the PDGA or rankings or score cards or anything? If you want the sport to move towards real competition between the best players that garners national attention one day the the pros need to be the focus.

Im not disagreeing with your sentiment about a lack of appreciation for TDs but lets not pretend that there arent bad TDs who dont deserve praise or poorly designed courses etc that have earned some griping. Im also not saying forget about the AMs. Im just saying why change the biggest tournament so AMs can have another one when there are tons out there for them already.

If this sport can get going the the TD's who have run solid tournaments could potentially make money at them. I mean someone got Slamball on TV for christ sakes! Is someone going to tell me that the right person couldnt get the USDGC on ESPN 23?

Slamball was easy to film for TV & fun to watch on TV. Disc golf is neither.

Slamball was easy to film for TV & fun to watch on TV. Disc golf is neither.

Wow! Just wow! No further comment necessary.

I think it depends on which direction you want to grow the sport. If you want it to be some game that kids play before going to class that is a joke that no one takes seriously then Ams should be the focus. Hell if that is what people want why do we need the PDGA or rankings or score cards or anything? If you want the sport to move towards real competition between the best players that garners national attention one day the the pros need to be the focus.

Do you know how ball golf professionals make money? They're members of the USGA, and they teach. The vast majority of professional golfers (those who use golf as their primary source of income) no not play on the PGA Tour. They do not play on the Nationwide tour. They teach amateurs.

The sport will move in the direction you're talking about eventually. But, to get it to move in that direction, you need spectators (read: AMs) that will watch the sport, buy the things advertisers are selling, pay ticket prices, etc. So the sport does like with the am ranks since they're the ones with all of the money that sponsors want.

No further comment necessary.

That is an excellent course of inaction.

That is an excellent course of inaction.

I meant with regards to that particular comment. Sorry to dissapoint.

Im just saying why change the biggest tournament so AMs can have another one when there are tons out there for them already.

Is someone going to tell me that the right person couldnt get the USDGC on ESPN 23?

And there are tons of tournaments dedicated solely to the elite pros. National tour comes to mind as do the countless Pro only A-tiers and B-tiers. And when you get to to the basics, tournamnets not set up as Pro only, the Pros are still catered to in the form of a percentage of the am entries going to thier payout as well as almost of the raised sponsorship monies.

The USDGC will be run every other year, in those odd years the sports true elite will make the journey across the sea to compete in the European Championships for similar prize money. The same thing the european players have beeen doing for years. The only ones that lose out are the 2nd and 3rd tier pros. The ones that may take the last cashing spots.

And the whole ESPN thing has been tried. Too many times to count. I was in contact with them back in 2001 when the USDGC was making the jump from real good tournament to the prestegious event it is today. Same thing now as then. Not enough interest to sell commercial time. To trully cover this event you'd need a crew the size of what covers a ball golf tournament. It would be a huge money loss for everyone involved. Any potential sponsors could care less about our elite pros. The people they are interested in would be the 4 million folks who play casually. That is thier target audience and potential customer base.

The "TD burnout and not being appreciated" is
such a tired and old argument. People have been
using that for years around my parts. This sport
is very "pat on the back driven" It's sad really. Who
needs constant recognition? Sounds like those
people just need to be players. This attitude grows
in the fact that this game is mostly free to play and
lots of the people that play it feel entitled.

This whole thing has gotten waaaayy off track. So I am going to reiterate the central theme here one last time. If you would like to see the USDGC remain an annual event then please sign the petition. If not well you are probably going to get what you want so there is really no discussion to have. Im not here to call innova evil or any such. Just saying that I would like to see this tournament remain an annual event.

Patrick,
Why do YOU want it to be every year? Are you planning to attend each year, buy a ticket,trying to qualify, spectate, volunteer, enjoy watching, meet friends from around the country and beyond?
I know why the top Pros want it but why you

Patrick,
Why do YOU want it to be every year? Are you planning to attend each year, buy a ticket,trying to qualify, spectate, volunteer, enjoy watching, meet friends from around the country and beyond?
I know why the top Pros want it but why you

Because I think it is one of if not the most prestigious disc golf tournament there is. It is within reach so I have the ability (and will be leaving late thursday or early friday to go spectate) as do other fans in the southeast. If my skills develop quickly enough I would also like to try and qualify for the event which isnt likely to happen next year but possibly the year after that if things go well. My opinion is that this event going to every other year is a sign of disc golf at the upper level moving backwards instead of forwards. Going every other year is too long of a stretch to name the US champion. All of this plus the fact that the main reason they gave was becasue they want to push European Disc Golf. We can only have a US champion every other year because Innova wants to focus on Europe seems like a poor trade off. Those are some of the main reasons.

Innova won't continue to hold it without support. Are you going to spectate? Volunteer?

Innova won't continue to hold it without support. Are you going to spectate? Volunteer?

Already said I am leaving friday morning to catch the Friday round and Saturday

Already said I am leaving friday morning to catch the Friday round and Saturday

You actually speak while typing? I thought only profoundly developmentally-challenged adults did that.







Oh, maybe that explains quite a bit�

You actually speak while typing? I thought only profoundly developmentally-challenged adults did that.







Oh, maybe that explains quite a bit�

It only demostrates how pathetic you are and how desprately you want to try to make me look bad. It was a feeble attempt.

I was desperate (but certainly not 'desprate') to make you look bad, but am not any longer. Whew, what a relief! Thanx for the assist.

You should be able to vocalize your opinions to Innova then this weekend.

The "TD burnout and not being appreciated" is
such a tired and old argument. People have been
using that for years around my parts. This sport
is very "pat on the back driven" It's sad really. Who
needs constant recognition? Sounds like those
people just need to be players. This attitude grows
in the fact that this game is mostly free to play and
lots of the people that play it feel entitled.
You know what else is old and tired? The idea that we need to continue to cater to the elite of the sport with big tournaments and tons of added cash, especially when the drumbeat typically comes from folks with no intention of getting off their butts and trying to raise that cash or run those tournaments.

If all those TDs were to instead "just be players", then who runs all the tournaments? Perhaps that's exactly what the USDGC staff is looking to do next year...just be players rather than give up their free time to cater to a small small percentage of the total number of disc golfers in the world.

It's not about getting constant recognition. It's about not having to deal with the negative twice as often as the positive. It's about putting in dozens and dozens of hours building and maintaining a course only to hear folks complaining about this tree in the fairway (after, and typically only after they hit it) or that "unfair" or "unnecessary" OB that is only such after they find they've landed in it.

To me, a good tournament is one that goes off without a *****. Sadly, those are few and far between.

exactly what the USDGC staff is looking to do next year...just be players rather than give up their free time to cater to a small small percentage of the total number of disc golfers in the world.

So you think an Amateur event at Winthrop on the scale of the USDGC or larger will be run by other people? Different volunteers or another group of staff at Innova? Or that any event could possibly cater to a large percentage of disc golfers in the world? Or be any easier with fewer player complaints?


Quoted from the announcement:
Amateur and recreational golfers represent the fastest growing portion of the disc golf community. With these players in mind, a new event will visit the famous grounds at Winthrop University in 2011. Details will be forthcoming, but two of the guiding principles will be: Amateurism and Fun Competition in a Professional Setting at Winthrop. Despite these changes our mission remains the same

Frankly I expect that the Winthrop Ams will be every bit as complicated as the USDGC and over 90% of the work will be done by the same folks who have worked for years providing a world class experience at Rock Hill.

I'm looking forward to seeing the competition later this week in what looks like spectacular weather conditions. And looking forward to seeing what the am event will look like next year.

If you all really want this to stay a Pro event every year I don't think a petition is going to do the trick.

What would inspire them to do the USDGC every year?
Well lets start with 10,000 VIP tickets and spectators.

That will speak much louder than anything on any discussion board, or a petition started by someone who, through lots of work and skill, will benefit considerably by having the event yearly. I do not disrespect Nate. If the petition was started by someone who was not a likely contender for the title, it may have been a bit more persuasive.

So you think an Amateur event at Winthrop on the scale of the USDGC or larger will be run by other people? Different volunteers or another group of staff at Innova? Or that any event could possibly cater to a large percentage of disc golfers in the world? Or be any easier with fewer player complaints?


Quoted from the announcement:
Amateur and recreational golfers represent the fastest growing portion of the disc golf community. With these players in mind, a new event will visit the famous grounds at Winthrop University in 2011. Details will be forthcoming, but two of the guiding principles will be: Amateurism and Fun Competition in a Professional Setting at Winthrop. Despite these changes our mission remains the same

Frankly I expect that the Winthrop Ams will be every bit as complicated as the USDGC and over 90% of the work will be done by the same folks who have worked for years providing a world class experience at Rock Hill.

I'm looking forward to seeing the competition later this week in what looks like spectacular weather conditions. And looking forward to seeing what the am event will look like next year.
I 100% agree with you. No, I don't think the staff of the amateur event will be all that different from the USDGC. I was embellishing a bit to make a point about the pros. I do think they'll make every effort to make their new event as big or bigger and better than the USDGC.

An am event can cater to a much higher percentage of the population simply by the fact that amateurs represent far more of the total than pros do. And a fresh event, with fresh participants, is probably something they need simply to recharge their batteries after dealing with the entitlement for so long.

So you think an Amateur event at Winthrop on the scale of the USDGC or larger will be run by other people? Different volunteers or another group of staff at Innova? Or that any event could possibly cater to a large percentage of disc golfers in the world? Or be any easier with fewer player complaints?


Quoted from the announcement:
Amateur and recreational golfers represent the fastest growing portion of the disc golf community. With these players in mind, a new event will visit the famous grounds at Winthrop University in 2011. Details will be forthcoming, but two of the guiding principles will be: Amateurism and Fun Competition in a Professional Setting at Winthrop. Despite these changes our mission remains the same

Frankly I expect that the Winthrop Ams will be every bit as complicated as the USDGC and over 90% of the work will be done by the same folks who have worked for years providing a world class experience at Rock Hill.

I'm looking forward to seeing the competition later this week in what looks like spectacular weather conditions. And looking forward to seeing what the am event will look like next year.

Yes, but perhaps there is a better possiblility of adequate compensation in many forms for those who put it together as an am event vs. a pro. Just speculating on my part, but I suspect the people who decided to make the change feel there are advantages that make it worth the effort.

I suspect the people who decided to make the change feel there are advantages that make it worth the effort.

Exactly. I say let's give these folks some deference and respect their decision rather than try and brow-beat them into changing their mind. They can always go back to an annual schedule if the biennial plan does not work out to their liking.

After yesterday's "great" PR from the incident with SUV, why would Innova want to catered to this group? Let alone all the whining for the Stroke and Distance.

After yesterday's "great" PR from the incident with SUV, why would Innova want to catered to this group? Let alone all the whining for the Stroke and Distance.

This point brings up the inconsistencies of the management entity of the sport itself. I mean if someone picks up a charge on a highway in South Dakota and is indefinitely suspended, one might assume the same punishment is extended to a person charged with a similar crime at the US Disc Golf Championships. No offense to Jeff or Zac, as I believe in due process, but just saying that the inconsistencies of managing the elite seams to be a problem in itself.