twig
Jul 30 2010, 05:10 AM
No that's a W/D! Why can our sport not show a difference between someone withdrawing due to injury or something like that as opposed to someone just quitting? It's embarassing for someone to look at scores and be like "oh why did Lavone quit?" when a simple change in scores being reported - say 888 - could simply show everyone that he withdrew as opposed to quitting.

I put this in every TD report I submit that there is a difference but we, as TD's, have no way of showing that difference.

I agree with your sentiment, but how would you "police" that? All the Quitter would have to do is say "My arm (wrist/back/you-know-what) hurts!" Sadly, I think it all comes down to the player's reputation...is he a competitive player or a petulant playa? One thing I do know: Lavone's no quitter.

This was pulled from the Worlds thread so as not to bog it down with a tangential discussion. Apologies to lovers of tangents...

I assume the first part (tagging a withdrawal differently) would be a straightforward thing to do, it's simply a matter of determining if that's actually the case. So why not simply have those with injury withdrawals fill out a form? Yeah, it's not perfect, and yeah, people can file them falsely (of course, no other sport deals with misleading injury situations...cough, cough), but it seems like a start. It would mean extra work for TD's, but unforeseen/unannounced DNF's aren't exactly a hassle-free occurrence either, especially those that cross days.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a way to count a regular (i.e. one that isn't injury or otherwise health-related) DNF in the ratings, by figuring a rating based on the holes that were played (possibly with a standard value assigned to uncompleted holes), especially since a sad majority of these tend to occur on the final hole or close to it. Of course, that would work best if the ratings did NOT throw out low rounds (which I personally don't believe they should). Fortunately, these specific situations (DNF's specifically to preserve ratings, as opposed to your garden variety frustration DNF) do tend to somewhat self-police, in that those who regularly do so inflate their rating without a corresponding increase in skill. Bragging rights over ratings are nice and all, but skill tends to win out over time, and, for me anyway, tourney wins/finishes kinda trump ratings when it's all said and one. :)

And, yeah, I realize that if you carry this argument further (possibly ad absurdum) you can get to the point where you punish (ratings-wise, anyway) people for excessive non-W/D DNF's (not a bad thing IMO), so everyone ends up trying to file said W/D form EVERY TIME, which just ends up being more hassle than it's worth. As Informal said, more often than not, at least for folks who know them personally, it's pretty immediately (if not specifically) obvious why someone stopped playing. I know Player X would finish out with a twisted ankle or throw with their off hand, while Player Y would quit after the second missed 10 footer. Sure would be nice if we can all tell this though...

Frank

cgkdisc
Jul 30 2010, 10:41 AM
Recognize that the primary purpose ratings were developed was to reduce sandbagging and get players competing in equivalent skill level divisions. So including rounds where players tank makes no sense. Until players get paid just for having a good rating, there's nothing wrong with players artificially propping up their rating by dropping rounds. In fact, it actually "helps" other players whe they do actually complete rounds because they will likely contribute their puffed up rating to boost the round ratings for others in a small way.

Sponsors who use ratings as one factor for sponsoring players are now savvy enough to look for DNFs on a player's record so top players cannot get away with propping up their ratings with drops any more.

davidsauls
Jul 30 2010, 12:30 PM
Seems to me like the cure is worst than the disease.

As a player I've had to withdraw due to health reasons too many times, but never for bad play (as a look at my round ratings attests). I apologize to my group, or the TD if it's between rounds, but don't care to have to justify it further.

As a TD, is definitely something I don't want to get involved with.

And there can't be more than a tiny percentage of players DNFing to inflate their player ratings---and what good does it do them, anyway?

I say, leave it as DNF. People who know the player and care can ask what happened....who else should care?

wsfaplau
Jul 30 2010, 03:11 PM
Not sure I see the need for a difference.
Why does it really matter?
Shouldn't it be about those that do play well and finish the tourney and NOT about those that didn't. If someone withdraws or quits who cares?
All it means is they didn't finish. Doesn't really matter to me why.
The stakes just aren't high enough.

If someone quits to protect a rating people will know about it and deal with it.
Just like players who pencil whip scores.
Other players know who they are and watch them more closely.

I just don't think the stakes are high enough to deal with this issue until some other issues are dealt with. Like the rules update, like improving member retention rates, etc.

My $0.02

chains11864
Aug 03 2010, 08:00 PM
If a player decides to stop playing at any given time, I would think it is their choice alone and there is no need for further explanation. If a player pays their entry fee, then I think they have just paid to participate in that tournament AND to also QUIT, if they choose to...

I understand MTLs idea to make sure a person with good character is not talked about in a negative way - I agree, but think that anyone with such character could care less about other's opinions. Those close to that person know what most probably happened, and the "peanut gallery" can go on and talk away.

As for keeping your rating higher...as mentioned, that player can shoot themselves in the foot as many times as they like, have fun.

I have witnessed a player decide to go home and watch a football game after the first round of a tournament - because they were out of cashing? - because they were hurt? - because they were playing poorly? - because they wanted to save their rating? - because someone they were going to play with the second round had really bad gas? --- point is, it does not matter - it is the player's choice, whatever the reasoning.

DNF is perfect - "Did Not Finish" - it is what it is....

Chains