I recently did a "B" tier tournament in the intermediate division and I felt that I was cheated out of a payout. Here is my question: There were 12 people in the field how deep does that payouts have to go according to PDGA, or is there a rubric for doing payout? Yes I know what you are already thinking...this guy finished 6th and feels left out and wants to complain. That is not the case. I am just wanting to know the rule if there is one.

Here are the guidelines, but they are not hard and fast rules: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/09PayTables.pdf
However, if a TD does not plan to follow these tables, then it's considered a courtesy to players to let them know in advance that payouts will be done differently from the standard tables. Sometimes the reason for deviation might be that the player pack is really valuable or that a charitable contribution will be deducted from the receipts.

12 players pays out to 6th place by this http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PayoutCalculator2008.xls

but that is silly. In my opinion only top 3 should get paid.

isnt that a 2 year old payout table?...

Payout tables haven't changed for several years, just the date label on the file.

I recently did a "B" tier tournament in the intermediate division and I felt that I was cheated out of a payout. Here is my question: There were 12 people in the field how deep does that payouts have to go according to PDGA, or is there a rubric for doing payout? Yes I know what you are already thinking...this guy finished 6th and feels left out and wants to complain. That is not the case. I am just wanting to know the rule if there is one.

That's a nice transition from "I felt I was cheated" to "not the case [that I want to complain]",

Personally, I've been playing various Am divisions for 14 years and will be an Am for life, yet am always a little disheartened when I hear Ams complaining about payouts. Sure would be nice if we felt that the pleasure of playing in a tournament was worth paying for.

thanks for the answers. I and a couple of pros that I play with thought that the rule was half, but we were not sure. Now I know.

If anyone is doing the math, the player pack was a Champion disc and a Pro disc, which should have eaten up most of the Intermediate payout and all of the Recreational payout. Our TD did not use the PDGA charts. His intermediate payout went 50,40,30,20,10 (150 total) but there was a three-way tie for second. PDGA payouts would have gone something like 14,12,10,9,8,7 (60 total). The top 4 places got quite a bit more than the PDGA payouts would have paid, and 6th got less.

So I'd say he was generous with his payout even if it was not PDGA. I'd rather play a generous tournament than a PDGA tournament any day. It was also well run. Doing tee times on 1 and 10 accomodated everyone who wanted to play and we did not have to play in fivesomes. I was pleasantly surprised with how well that worked out.

Bruce - I am not upset about the outcome of the event and I totally agree that the players pack was great. I was just curious that is all. This has not discouraged me from playing any more HB tournaments, I was just wondering if there was a rule. I and the guys that I play with were all wondering and we all thought that it was half. I am happy that he was generous with the money. What prompted the questions is that all of the other divisions paid out half that was all. Thanks

thanks for the answers. I and a couple of pros that I play with thought that the rule was half, but we were not sure. Now I know.

Depends on how the TD wants to do it too. There is an option on the payout calculator to either pay 45% or 50% of the AM fields. I personally use 45% on the Advanced and 50% on Intermediate and Rec.

What about when there are 11 people? If you want to payout 40% of the field, Do you pay out 4 people, or 5? I was curious after attending this tournament last year. Looking at the Open payout.

http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=9716

If you want (or need) to pay at least 40% of the field, then 5 of 11 (45.45%) would need to get paid. Paying 4 of 11 is only 36.36%

Isn't there a minimum of 40% for Open? Does anybody regulate this? Are there any consequences for not following these rules?

Isn't there a minimum of 40% for Open? Does anybody regulate this? Are there any consequences for not following these rules?

It isn't a rule, its a guideline. Bug difference. Rules must be followed, guidelines are merely suggestions.

Some Open players have told me they prefer a 33% payout (of course they are usually the ones that cash ;)).

The PDGA International pay tables for pro divisions provide 25%, 33% and 40% payout options.

I'd favor cutting the payout spread in all divisions to 33%.....if only to shorten awards ceremonies. Must we announce the names of half the contestants? It's like tee-ball sometimes.

I'd favor cutting the payout spread in all divisions to 33%.....if only to shorten awards ceremonies. Must we announce the names of half the contestants? It's like tee-ball sometimes.

i've been to a tournament, don't remember which one (i didn't make payout), but the td only announced the top three in each division. but all payout was printed and posted before the awards ceremony, and payout was given out afterwards.

I'd favor cutting the payout spread in all divisions to 33%.....if only to shorten awards ceremonies. Must we announce the names of half the contestants? It's like tee-ball sometimes.

i agree with this, top 3 at most

i've been to a tournament, don't remember which one (i didn't make payout), but the td only announced the top three in each division. but all payout was printed and posted before the awards ceremony, and payout was given out afterwards.

Good deal.

I've suggested something like this locally but been turned down. I just wanted to read out the names in one long list, not recognized each player individually, then give award to the division champions.

I'm only half-complaining about the awards ceremonies....but there have been times, exhausted and a couple of hours from home, when I've been happy to finish just out of the payout.

It may just be my defective memory, but I swear when I started in the mid-90s that Am payouts around here were around 35%. I remember entering tournaments with a series of goals: #1 Don't finish DFL, #2 beat half the division, #3 cash, #4 finish on the lead card, #5 win. Now #2 & #3 are the same.

I think paying more to fewer was common everywhere in the 90s. Player packs were made mandatory sometime around 1999 or 2000, and i think that's when paying out 50% of the ams was incorporated into the payout charts.

am player packs unless donated to the event as such have got to payed for out of the player entries .
as this is where payouts are calculated if players packs are not donated the payouts will be smaller.
in my opinion amateur competitions dont normally have value in them outside of the opportunity to compete with others in an organized setting and trophies or medals as reward to those who excell above others.
in disc golf a major distribution point for manufacturers is the packs and payout.

am player packs unless donated to the event as such have got to payed for out of the player entries .
as this is where payouts are calculated if players packs are not donated the payouts will be smaller.
in my opinion amateur competitions dont normally have value in them outside of the opportunity to compete with others in an organized setting and trophies or medals as reward to those who excell above others.
in disc golf a major distribution point for manufacturers is the packs and payout.

well put...

DGSM will be doing trophy only am events, with really cool players packs up front....including lunch, games, giveaways, and nice trophies for payout.

Clubs and companies who host dg tournaments all want "deals" or "sponsorship" from the main disc manufacturers....which they are usually more than generous.....but if we ever want to add some zeros behind some pro payout checks, we have to work harder marketing our sport.

building local courses, organizing long term growth with sponsors (outside disc companies), and thinking outside the norm, will help take the sport to the next level...

good luck to all...

12 players pays out to 6th place by this http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PayoutCalculator2008.xls

but that is silly. In my opinion only top 3 should get paid.

What if there's 3 players in a division or 30 players? Do you still only want top 3? What is your formula?

What if there's 3 players in a division or 30 players? Do you still only want top 3? What is your formula?

player value aught to be in the competition. a quality players pack and trophies should add up to total incoming entries.
unless specific donations allow greater return to players than their entry.
the pdga guidelines are just that.
they are not hard fast rules.

The easiest thing to do is set a standard for players packs and do away with "payout" for AM's. Award the top three in each division and be done with it. Why should a 6th place player get something? What other sport does this? I know when I competed in sports I didn't get an award for being the 10th best player there, and I also wasn't competing for anything lower then 3rd place. AM's have become spoiled with payout and TD's are scrambling to come up with Pro money and AM merch. Just do away with it, but set a standard for players packs. Provide nice trophies, maybe then baggers like me will want to move into the pro ranks and compete for cash.

What will happen is they'll just not enter as many (if any) PDGA events and play non-sanctioned events where they still pay out with the big prizes and player packs like current PDGA events. The "horse has left the barn" long ago.

What will happen is they'll just not enter as many (if any) PDGA events and play non-sanctioned events where they still pay out with the big prizes and player packs like current PDGA events. The "horse has left the barn" long ago.


Buy a new horse then:)

Is the PDGA prepared for competing tours emerging....Southern Nationals.....like the ball golf Nike Tour....Hooters Tour....etc.?

It might help if the PDGA points actually counted for something.....all they are good for is a worlds invite....which you can usually get into anyway.

The $50-$125 sanctioning fees, and $2-$5 per player to the PDGA.....why not use that money to reward all the points leaders at the end of the year?

That's a solution to create a giant payout exclusive to PDGA members who play a lot of tournaments.....send them a gift card to the PDGA Pro shop, based on their total points at the end of the season....right before Christmas!!


Big Shot
#14490

What will happen is they'll just not enter as many (if any) PDGA events and play non-sanctioned events where they still pay out with the big prizes and player packs like current PDGA events. The "horse has left the barn" long ago.

Naively repeating this again and again does not make it true. There are easily more than enough ams, AT THIS MOMENT, that would play competitive disc golf without having to be lured by gobs of plastic. Each day we move forward just produces more of these folks.

Naively repeating this again and again does not make it true. There are easily more than enough ams, AT THIS MOMENT, that would play competitive disc golf without having to be lured by gobs of plastic. Each day we move forward just produces more of these folks.

Does anyone besides me remember when player packs became mandatory for amateurs in 2001? The outrage? The weeping and gnashing of teeth? You're destroying our payouts! And then two years later it was all forgotten?

I'm quite confident that if the PDGA were to abolish amateur payouts we'd see exactly the same thing.

If we were to quit having amateur payouts at PDGA sanctioned tournaments today, two years later no one would care and ten years from now no one would remember that we ever had them. But the weeping and gnashing of teeth while players and TDs adjusted to the change would certainly be entertaining! :D

On the other hand, I remember when the PDGA mandated maximum entry fees. There was weeping and gnashing of teeth and outright defiance. In a few months, the mandate became a recommendation.

After the question of whether "no am payouts" is desirable comes the question of whether the PDGA should mandate it, or leave it as a choice for TDs. After all, TDs can run PDGA tournaments with low entry fees/large players packages/little or no payouts now, as a demonstration of how much better that system is. Few do.

I have to agree with Bruce. For a couple of years attendance would most likely drop but that's why you set a standard for players packs and trophies. In a couple of years people would forget and most likely players would strive to move into the pro ranks to win some real cash. The AM division should just be a devolpment division for the Pros. Although I don't ever see myself reaching that level.

Does anyone besides me remember when player packs became mandatory for amateurs in 2001? The outrage? The weeping and gnashing of teeth? You're destroying our payouts! And then two years later it was all forgotten?

I'm quite confident that if the PDGA were to abolish amateur payouts we'd see exactly the same thing.
Not exactly the same thing since the total payout was essentially the same when player packs were required, it was just redistributed. Removing payouts would either mean more money to maybe include lunches and pay the TD and staff if entry fees remained the same. That could be a good thing for the sport. Or, entry fees are reduced. This would be popular for some players.

The big issue here is that no one can make a compelling case why change in the common format for Am payouts is needed. The sport has powered thru this recession with unabated growth and all indicators are positive for the sport and the PDGA. If anything, a case could be made that higher Am entry fees and bigger payouts would be a better direction in areas where events are selling out to dampen demand somewhat.

The big issue here is that no one can make a compelling case why change in the common format for Am payouts is needed. The sport has powered thru this recession with unabated growth and all indicators are positive for the sport and the PDGA. If anything, a case could be made that higher Am entry fees and bigger payouts would be a better direction in areas where events are selling out to dampen demand somewhat.

Compelling arguments have been made for years. Those arguments were responsible for flattening am payouts, which led to one of your "Oh no, the sky will fall" responses. As Bruce pointed out, It didn't. It will not fall this time either.

Btw, it doesn't begin to follow that high demand for entrants should lead to fatter payouts. That's just lazy mental inertia.

"Compelling" = "in perfect lockstep with current PDGA practices & CK's personal predilections"

Like I said, the option to prove your direction is better has been there. The Memorial stepped up and showed that "the more than 100% payout as a player pack" format can work. Personally, I could take or leave the PDGA requirement for player packs. More players are probably happy with getting player packs, especially in higher entry fee events. The only basis for changing to another tournament financial model is the argument that it "could" be better that way. Even if it does work, there's no need to require it to be that way. The PDGA sets the table for a wide variety of formats and there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to require a certain format.

Bruce and his partners have demonstrated their twist on the the more common PDGA model works very well, especially for attracting lower level ams. I would encourage more TDs to try it but not force them to do so. This upcoming A-tier, they're adding all cash only to the Open divisions. Their choice to do it, our (older Pros) choice to enter Open, not enter at all or just play for each other's money. Craig has shown the stepped entry fee model can work. That's great that various models work without having to choose one and force TDs to do it.

The big issue here is that no one can make a compelling case why change in the common format for Am payouts is needed. Harold Duvall can make a compelling case for abolishing am payouts if you chat with him about it. My own experiences in running am payout tournaments for ten years have made the compelling case to me. It is not so much that we need to abolish am payouts as it is that we don't need to have them. Am payouts are like the beloved family pet who also happens to be a pit bull terrier.

Harold and I have talked and he's always had high player pack and tournament value in his events and the locals have been fine with that. But again, there's no compelling reason to require that format at the exclusion of all others.

I don't disagree with a general principle that there needs to be flexibility. There does.

However, most of what you say seems like a copout, or at least an inability to wisely distinguish between where flexibility adds and flexibility detracts. For example, there is no flexibility about a cashing pro moving down to intermediate, or for an advanced rated player moving down. There are minimum payouts, criteria for running tourneys, rules, etc. The PDGA has rightly stated, imo, that these things are integral to their vision. It is not much of a stretch for them to also address rewards of competition. They kind of do it already via payout tables.

Caps would be anti-"cap"italistic.

Naively repeating this again and again does not make it true.

There are easily more than enough ams, AT THIS MOMENT, that would play competitive disc golf without having to be lured by gobs of plastic.

Naively repeating this again and again does not make it true.

Most ADV players fall into this category......

Keep on keepin' on being PDGA's 2nd line of defense (after Chuck of course).

I am not a fan of not having payout but I think TDs need to go outside the box and procure some non-dg sponsorship. If I played in ADV and won $100 in plastic every tournament I would kill myself...I already have too much and I am a crappy rec player!! If you gave me a $100 gift card for Publix or a steakhouse I would be stoked.

I agree that other prizes are needed than just disc golf equipment. Disc golf gear is somewhat of a crutch for prizes because it's relatively easy for TDs to set up but it also supports our industry in a sport that doesn't have a whole lot of money involved in equipment and clothing like several other sports.

Naively repeating this again and again does not make it true.

As Chuck even admitted (the tourneys he mentioned) and Bruce verified (in tourneys he runs), it already has worked. As long as the tourney is appealing, Ams fields will fill.

I am not a fan of not having payout but I think TDs need to go outside the box and procure some non-dg sponsorship. If I played in ADV and won $100 in plastic every tournament I would kill myself...I already have too much and I am a crappy rec player!! If you gave me a $100 gift card for Publix or a steakhouse I would be stoked.

As a TD, I'm working hard enough to put on a tournament without scrambling around begging for donations from local businesses. And in virtually all cases, outside sponsorship is just that--the business won't recognize any benefit.

As a player, I'm not crazy about the gift certificate I won to a local restaurant in a distant town where I competed.

TDs pay Ams in disc golf merchandise, in part, because the retail/wholesale differential underwrites the expenses of the tournament and contributes to the pro payout, course improvements, club funds, and/or a little profit for the many hours of work.

I wish disc golf had evolved with a different mindset: Ams pay a modest fee to play in a tournament, and don't expect to walk away with anything except the value of having a tournament run for them (or perhaps a 1st-place trophy). Like many other sports. No 100% prizes. No 100% players packages.

Which, I guess, puts me in a very small minority. Again.

the payout thing has gone to far......

I'm sure some of you all realize that the entry fees are about the same as they were 10 years ago, maybe a 10-20% increase...........but the disc prices have increased up over 200% in some cases........you do the math on why "payouts" don't seem like much anymore..........a guy who won ten years ago that got 20 DX discs, now gets 4 star discs........hmmmmmmmm

On the other hand, in the DX days it sure was nice receiving stacks of discs because the ones you had wore out so fast, and you needed replacement. Nowadays, many Ams have more plastic than they know what to do with; what's with winning more when everything in your bag will last you a few years?

Around here, entry fees have gone up 50% or more. You're right about the "smaller" Am prizes, but other things have factored in as well. More divisions equals smaller divisions equals smaller payouts for each. The trend towards players packages have cut into the huge payouts to top finishers in Am divisions as well.

The reason it comes up may be a lil "Kooky"... a 6th place "Am" wondering about a Pay-out.

But the discussion that is brought up by all of you show that the topic could use some attention. It may not perfect. And it may never be... But, we can hope right... I can only assist on the AM player level. Cause that is what I am.

At the AM Player Level (And a Rec level at that) -

What do I "Expect" when I enter a Tourney? To start, other than a good time with good friends "which I mostly control anyways, I'd like to think" I am not sure I should "Expect" anything. That is why I choose to be an "Am" (that and I kinda stink at Disc golf).

Pvt Trig out
"I may not be able to throw far... So I make up for it by missing the putt"

You can talk payout policies and the like about as much as you want, and if it chose the PDGA could try to dictate am payout as much as they want, but it still won't change the creative ways TDs will create a buzz for a tournament. It probably would just become another consideration of whether to sanction.

A local tournament here has announced that the Advanced Men's winner will receive a Mach V basket. You can grit your teeth and call it the end of the world or whatever, but I can tell you that the desired effect of creating excitement and interest in the tournament is being accomplished. More than one Advanced player who helped at our new course work days mentioned how pumped they are at the chance to win it.

I'm in favor of whatever a TD does to promote value and interest in their tournament. Be that incredible players packs, incredible venues, amazing amenities or big payouts. Limiting the TD’s options creates ways for non-sanctioned alternatives to compete, and another reason for pro-PDGA TD’s to consider running non-sanctioned tournaments.

It's like tee-ball sometimes.
Hilarious! I have made that analogy in my head so many times.

Going back to what I said earlier, provide a nice players pack with some unique items and only "payout" the top three in each division. Why should a 10th place player receive a stack of discs for placing in the top 50%? It has gotton out of hand when a 5th place player is complaining about only receiving 3-4 discs. The tourneys that I've been too that were trophy only made me play that much harder. I wanted to be that much better. I think it would help the sport and the TD's.

I will be one of those playing for the Mach V!!!. In my opinion if payouts were abolished for ams the attendance would drop and many more non sactioned events would be poping up, at least for a while like Bruce said. I know i would not play in an event without a am payout unless the entry fee was like 10 bucks. I wouldnt pay more. Now having no payout but a large player package is a different story.
I will be honest i play tourneys to win something.( go ahead call me a bagger i dont mind) I am not playing just to have fun and see friends. I can do that for free. WHy i would pay for that? I dropped back down to am because i was not winning as much and was paying more when i played open. Doesnt make sense to me to pay more to get less. Thats why i will continue to play adv even if my rating moves back up to a pro level. If am payouts were done away with i would no longer would play tournaments unless i really like the course or tournament atmosphere(like Standing Rocks) or my playing level greatly improves.
If you want more players to play open, make it worth it. Have more tournys like the USDGC in which you need to qualify for and has a large payout.

Yea I won 6 baskets for placing 1st in Adv or Int. That and $2000 in 1st Run Buzzes that I gave away soon after winning.

Giving a basket to 1st is fine but after that 2nd should only get about $100 in payout and so on.

Going back to what I said earlier, provide a nice players pack with some unique items and only "payout" the top three in each division.

I'm still a little stumped by this. If there are 100 Advanced players at Bowling Green, you don't want to reward the 4th-place finisher? I think beating 95% of the field is an accomplishment. If there are only 4 Advanced Masters players at a local tournament, you want to pay the top 3 and just leave one out? Pretty generous.

But all this brings up the fact that whatever system we use must cater to a variety of players with a variety of preferences. You want a nice players package; I'd rather do away with players packages altogether. Instead of charging me $40 and giving me $20 worth of stuff I may or may not want, just charge me $20. You're not giving me something---you're making me buy it as a condition of playing. Dthrow wants to play only to win stuff, but I want to compete to compete.

I'm in favor of a good bit of flexibility for TDs, who can then tailor their events to what most players prefer (or, at least, what we perceive most players want). If TDs offer a variety of rewards systems, players can choose those that suit their own preferences.

The big "problem" was created when the sport adopted this "PROS (which anyone can be) play for cash" and "AMS play for ?? (plastic, trophies, etc.)". Once we turned THAT corner, all the other "payout" problems arose (and continue to be and will continue to exist)!

How about setting up tournaments that have no "PROS"...and offer NO prizes / payouts (except the "right" to play in it)? Yeh, that'll go over like a turd in a punch bowl!

So since y'all will NEVER agree to anything that takes away 'your divine right to gamble for others money'...

While I rarely agree with CK, his (if I may paraphrase) "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude is one that I DO agree with here. That and just ensure (by whatever means possible) that the TD have 'flexibility' in creating their tournament formats. Anything else (dictated, mandated, etc.) is just "one man's powerplay to get HIS ideas through" (and make him feel all nice and good about himself)...it doesn't / won't "improve" our sport.

Karl

I'm still a little stumped by this. If there are 100 Advanced players at Bowling Green, you don't want to reward the 4th-place finisher? I think beating 95% of the field is an accomplishment. If there are only 4 Advanced Masters players at a local tournament, you want to pay the top 3 and just leave one out? Pretty generous.

But all this brings up the fact that whatever system we use must cater to a variety of players with a variety of preferences. You want a nice players package; I'd rather do away with players packages altogether. Instead of charging me $40 and giving me $20 worth of stuff I may or may not want, just charge me $20. You're not giving me something---you're making me buy it as a condition of playing. Dthrow wants to play only to win stuff, but I want to compete to compete.

I'm in favor of a good bit of flexibility for TDs, who can then tailor their events to what most players prefer (or, at least, what we perceive most players want). If TDs offer a variety of rewards systems, players can choose those that suit their own preferences.

What about running races? There are thousands of runners who get a number....shirt....and their time posted in the paper.......maybe the top 3 runners get trophies or medals......and they pay up to $100 or more to run!!!

The pro division is dying in case you haven't noticed.......they need to be able to be pros full time, for our sport to flourish.....and maybe 5-10 current players can realistically do that right now....

The amateur division is great, but if they keep getting all of the award money, our sport will continue to struggle.....

example.....do you buy DVD's with BG Am Final Nine Highlights?????

$40 Am Entry Fee with about 5 bucks per player going to the PDGA......that's too much in my opinion.....especially when there are dozens of sanctioned tournaments each week and most of them are Am Scams.....

Make the requirements harder to sanction a PDGA event......and if they can't meet the requirements, don't sanction it.......more quality, less quantity......

Limit the amount of tournaments.......especially pro events.....and build up the money....

What about running races? There are thousands of runners who get a number....shirt....and their time posted in the paper.......maybe the top 3 runners get trophies or medals......and they pay up to $100 or more to run!!!

To me, trophies are different than payouts.

As I've said before, I'd be much happier if we'd evolved so the Am divisions had modest entry fees, no players packages, no payouts, just 1st place trophies. I'd pay $20-$25 to play in tournaments, just as an entry fee for the right to play in tournaments and for someone to do the organization work to make it possible.

But what makes me happy isn't necessarily, nor even usually, what makes most disc golfers happy.

I don't see the Pro division as dying, and don't think the participation numbers bear that out....at least around here. But I'm not terribly concerned about the top pros, or raising the top pros to a higher level, or raising the sport to a major sport through the top pros. I'm firmly in the Grassroots contingent, and see the growth of courses/tournaments/tournament players/PDGA members as positive.

While I rarely agree with CK, his (if I may paraphrase) "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude is one that I DO agree with here. That and just ensure (by whatever means possible) that the TD have 'flexibility' in creating their tournament formats. Anything else (dictated, mandated, etc.) is just "one man's powerplay to get HIS ideas through" (and make him feel all nice and good about himself)...it doesn't / won't "improve" our sport.

All systems, definitely our current system, are a result of some "power play." I don't know if those fighting for the status quo do so they can feel nice and good about themselves. That would be pretty foolish for me to assume that.

Btw, if the long-term goal is to create a competitive sport, it is not hard to argue it is broke. If the long-term goal is to create a recreational activity that encourages non-competitive mediocrity, we kick butt.

if the long-term goal is to create a competitive sport, it is not hard to argue it is broke. If the long-term goal is to create a recreational activity that encourages non-competitive mediocrity, we kick butt.
You have stumbled upon the core challenge facing the PDGA in the present & immediate future. Its actions demonstrate that it can't decide which of your stated goals is its true mission. It seems like there is one faction of the PDGA brass that favors the latter & one that favors the former. Unfortunately, the org has reached a sufficient size that it can't "have its cake & eat it too" & it needs to decide which mission to tackle wholeheartedly instead of continuing with its feeble attempts at being all things to all people.

James,

You may have come to the jist of the issue (or, at least, the argument part of this issue) by saying your "...if the long-term goal is to...". I think that "we" - collectively - will never agree with "what the long-term goal is"!! And thus will always have conflicting opinions.

Sure if we're hell-bent-for-leather for ultra-competitive, we're the toughest sport around, UFC is for wimps, then yup, we need to "reconsider" what / how we're promoting things. And if we're all about 420 and gigglies doing more talking than throwing, then we're also not quite right! I'm guessing that we're somewhere in between those 2 extremes. Very few sports AREN'T somewhere in between. Now comes the part as to which side do you lean toward? And this is where we (any 2 random people talking about this) may differ.

I personally am more in a camp akin to David S. - grassroots growing the sport, AM-for-life, the REAL Pros will eventually "happen" once the sport's 'base' is established, etc., but I know that a lot of people (today's society in general) what everything NOW. I guess I'm just more patient....

Karl

You have stumbled upon the core challenge facing the PDGA in the present & immediate future. Its actions demonstrate that it can't decide which of your stated goals is its true mission. It seems like there is one faction of the PDGA brass that favors the latter & one that favors the former. Unfortunately, the org has reached a sufficient size that it can't "have its cake & eat it too" & it needs to decide which mission to tackle wholeheartedly instead of continuing with its feeble attempts at being all things to all people.

Perhaps a member-owned, member-run organization is destined to try to satisfy the multiple goals of a diverse membership.

Likewise, the volunteers among the members---the TDs---may have a temptation to satisfy the wishes of the participants at their tournaments.

Yes, it is the PDGA's difficult task to balance all these goals.

It is, indeed, tempting to try to make every single soul feel all warm & fuzzy. It is also tempting to climb into & drive away that red Ferrari that was left running & unlocked in front of your office.

Neither is the right thing to do.

Not sure how right it is for a member-run organization to do what the members don't want it to do, either.

Be careful Ray...

One is just WRONG (the ferrari thing) - unless, of course, you own it.

The other (trying to make every single soul feel all warm and fuzzy) is not WRONG - it's just futile (as ones efforts could be better spent).

Karl

Be careful Ray...

One is just WRONG (the ferrari thing) - unless, of course, you own it.

The other (trying to make every single soul feel all warm and fuzzy) is not WRONG - it's just futile (as ones efforts could be better spent).

Karl
Thanx for the warning, Karl, but I believe I have chosen my words quite carefully & not branded either activity as "WRONG", but merely "not the right thing to do".

Carry on…

Now you're starting to sound like Chuck (playing semantics with words...and your semantics aren't even good ones...of course neither are his). If you think they have equal "weight" (and thus you're stating that they're "not the right thing to do") I feel for you.

And since you stated to "carry on"...






...I won't. ;)

Karl

Nor did I state (or think) that the two have equal weight. I also think stomping on newborns, littering with butts, and upgrading to Windows 7 are "not the right thing to do".

Ever heard of the rhetorical device called "metaphor"? If not, I feel for you.

Don't carry on�

Does the 6th place "Am" get a new Ferrari?

Pvt Trig "just keepin' it real" out

I suspect that most players share the opinion that a couple whiny pros aren't the ones who should be deciding policy. Do most players have any interest in paying tourney entry fees so that some prima donna doesn't have to go out and get a real job?


TDs are certainly free to offer the options you suggest, but you would force your choices on others. The most American of ideals in practice is the Freedom of Choice - It's what you got.

Who would take that choice from people to serve their own selfish ends?


Most ADV players fall into this category......

Mixing Pros and Ams in the Same tournies seemed odd to me at first... It might even free up some scheduling in some of the more Tournie Heavy States. (Gosh I hope I didn't just open a can of worms)

Pvt Trig out

If Pros & Ams weren't combined in the same tournaments, you'd likely find few people running Pro tournaments. The Am side underwrites the Pro side.

get more sponsor dollars......quit doing the same thing......get the community more involved......make a festival atmosphere.......run more quality tournaments and plan a year ahead of time.....

I have a payout question.......2 round pro tournament......3 pro divisions total......2 divisions finish 2 entire rounds (last 6 holes are in pounding rain)......

1 division (4 total) decides as a group to call it quits with 4 holes left..........

is this a dnf for all four players.....or.......

do they get cash for the place they were in, when they decided to quit?

get more sponsor dollars......quit doing the same thing......get the community more involved......make a festival atmosphere.......run more quality tournaments and plan a year ahead of time.....



Yeah, the VOLUNTEER TDs aren't working hard enough for us. We should demand that they work much harder so we players can have fun and put money in our pockets.

*

By rule, the players who quit were all disqualified. Even if lightning strikes the course, you must wait for the TD to sound the horn to halt play.

As a TD, I'd pay them their prizes anyway.

The TD needs to decide if they want the money put into their pocket or do they want the players coming back next time.

The TD needs to decide if they want the money put into their pocket or do they want the players coming back next time.

Do you refer to the 4 guys who quit in the downpour.....
or that the TD should work harder for sponsors and plan a year in advance?

What I meant is the TD has a choice of profiting from an entire division DNF'ing or paying the guys anyway as a token of goodwill so that they would play his tournaments again.

I'd pay them. Don't know about Jon.

Yeah, the VOLUNTEER TDs aren't working hard enough for us. We should demand that they work much harder so we players can have fun and put money in our pockets.

*

By rule, the players who quit were all disqualified. Even if lightning strikes the course, you must wait for the TD to sound the horn to halt play.

As a TD, I'd pay them their prizes anyway.

huh?? why would we demand a volunteer to do anything??

I think having the same volunteers doing the same thing year after year, is part of the problem.....in some cases.....they feel entitled to their certain am scam tournament dates each year.....

I'm just suggesting better quality, and moving cheese (book reference)......bring back some field events that got us on espn 30 years ago!!! You know the old saying, if your going to do something.....do it right!

What if the TD was in the group that quit? I know the answer....but I wanted to hear some opinions.....since this cetain TD is notorious for controversy......

If your area has a problem TD, you don't have to play in his or her events. In fact, you have every opportunity to run a tournament yourself and demonstrate a better way.

Fortunately for me, I'm in a place where TDs do a great deal of work just to make tournaments possible. We don't have a problem with the "same volunteers" doing it year after year because, if they didn't, we'd have fewer tournaments to play in. I'm not sure what an "Am Scam" tournament is, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't happen around here---Ams as a group tend to get all their entry fees back in players packages and/or prizes, so as a group they play for free while someone else does all the work to make it possible.

At any rate, that's my experience as a TD, TD's assistant, club treasurer, and lifetime Am player, since 1996.

What I meant is the TD has a choice of profiting from an entire division DNF'ing or paying the guys anyway as a token of goodwill so that they would play his tournaments again.

I thought that's what you meant, but wasn't sure....in which case, I'd also pay them. It's money I expected to pay out, anyway.

[QUOTE=davidsauls;1426266]If your area has a problem TD, you don't have to play in his or her events. In fact, you have every opportunity to run a tournament yourself and demonstrate a better way.

ok....sign up now.....we have sold out 3 tournaments this year so far!!

I'm just trying to hold bad people accountable, that are keeping world champions and hall of famers from participating in our local club.....

ok

Playing for plastic is silly in my opinion.
It's also wasteful. Especially when you
are not given the choice of what discs you win.

I have always liked the concept of sliding entry
fees for pro events. Do it based on ratings.

I know this can be done now but it's just not
done that often.

Found this topic searching for "PDGA payout". Looks like the process has changed since 2010 where TDs could pay whatever and the paytables were simply a guide.

On the sanctioning agreement today the TD initials to "Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the pay tables."

Or am I missing something?

Found this topic searching for "PDGA payout". Looks like the process has changed since 2010 where TDs could pay whatever and the paytables were simply a guide.

On the sanctioning agreement today the TD initials to "Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the Pro field and a minimum of 45% of the Am field as per the pay tables."

Or am I missing something?

That line in its exact wording has been in the sanctioning agreement since 2008.

Prior to that, the line was "Agree to pay a minimum of 40% of the field as per the 2007 pay tables."

In the 2006 sanctioning agreement, it said this...
"agree to follow the PDGA entry fee and payout tables provided for the different Pro, Amateur, and Junior divisions in order to promote Tour standardization and ensure that the correct % of players and payout curve is awarded in each division."

I don't think the tables were ever a "guide" and the TD was free to pay as he wanted, at least not in sanctioned events.