I guess I missed it, but why is there absolutely nothing on the NT going on right now?

Live scoring starts at 1:30 EDT. Lead card is Johansen, Climo, Doss and Gurthie for 24 holes: Here's the link:

http://www.pdga.com/tournament/live.php?TournID=9641 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/live.php?TournID=9641)

looks like a killer course,thanks for great photos and live scoring.

... looked up his stats and
see multiple wins every year since 2001; only missing cash a couple times;
perennial USDGC contender. 3 wins in a row this year out of the gate...

talk to me about johnE McCray

odds on gurthie shooting hot round tomorrow?



personally, i'd love to see it. excellent card.

Gg killed it today. champ parked hole 1. fun day playing with some good players, too bad i forgot how to putt, tomorrow should be a great conclusion to the shootout.

is kc pro still odds on favorite? who is running a book?

anyone know when play will resume?

what's the rule on weather if they can't finish today

and they're off

Borg making a charge!

no tweets in 25 minutes??? are they just playing 18? do we have a playoff?

nope looks like they play the whole course

no tweets in 25 minutes??? are they just playing 18? do we have a playoff?

Yeah, I don't get it. During the Memorial, they did a great job. This time... not so much!

i am not a pdga basher but i have no idea what is going on. the live scoring is cool but is lacking with out the comments. 2 group back up on hole 23 ok but how is the second group 2 holes ahead of the lead group and it has taken the lead group 15 miutes to play the par 3 hole 21? only thing i can guess is someones battery died. that why you have a battery chrager on the cart with you.

kenny and nate battling on different cards. looks like it is going to come down to a duece on the final hole. or playoff??

WOW nate eagles the par 4 23rd hole and no tweet?? holy cow looks like it is in nates hands now. birdie the last hole and the title is his

This is gettin' good!
PLAYOFF PLEASE!!

Those eagles were a typo.....Doss must birdie the last!

what?????? they entered nates score wrong on live scoring on hole 23 put a two when he got a three they just corrected it. way to go. up to nate. has to birdie the last hole for a playoff. come on PDGA give us somehting here

Those eagles were a typo.....Doss must birdie the last!

And the DRAMA gets BIGGER!

Killing me.

Playoff!

What NOW?
Are they going to continue the live scoreing?
17 comments total in almost 7 hours...
Only a few about any shots.
Why even bother?

looks like a playoff for the USDGC q also between the 2 -15's?

hey Fish

That was quick

I'm glad Ken Climo won it. Finally some commentary that explained what is going all. Been missing that all day!

It's been said that Ken Climo can still hang with the big dogs. Really, it was the big dogs that did all they could do to hang with the champ.

Mitch Man,.... CLIMO is still a Disc Golf version of Jack Nicklaus !!

Still the Man!

we need bumper stickers that say WWKCD

what?????? they entered nates score wrong on live scoring on hole 23 put a two when he got a three they just corrected it. way to go. up to nate. has to birdie the last hole for a playoff. come on PDGA give us somehting here

Is a mistake allowed? Come on bgwvdave. Am I so off base!

Ken Climo the CHAMP, why is so hard to believe he won!

Climo comes back back and shoots a 1083 rated final round. Then wins it on the 1st hole of the playoff.

Who's the Champ!?

WOW only $1,250.00 for an NT win???

What are the payout qualification for an NT?

Yeah I was just looking at that.
They spread it out quite a bit, but you would have thought that was the second place or third place prize for an NT event.

WOW only $1,250.00 for an NT win???

What are the payout qualification for an NT?

The A-Tier in Houston (Texas States) gave $1170.00 for 1st.

Eric McCabe keeps the title in Texas!!

Des Wins FPO and that title stays in Texas Also!!

Vinny Miller wins Masters for yet another title that stays in Texas.

Needless to say,.. every division was won by an Texan.

Maybe next year The potential of HUGE ADDED CASH might make the NT look at the LONE STAR!

Maybe next year The potential of HUGE ADDED CASH might make the NT look at the LONE STAR!
It's the other way around. Maybe the Lone Star will consider bidding to host an NT. As I recall, not having cement tee pads was the Texas issue before that didn't meet NT guidelines.

WOW only $1,250.00 for an NT win???

What are the payout qualification for an NT?
I believe $5000 added is the minimum cash for an NT. You might have to add up the entry fees and see if it looks like $5K total was added to all pro divisions.

I believe $5000 added is the minimum cash for an NT. You might have to add up the entry fees and see if it looks like $5K total was added to all pro divisions.


thats 5k added cash... added to the total of : entry fees - PDGA/local club fees - players pack


not 5k on top of 100% of entry fees

Was the discussed "low" payout due to the fact that there was only 74 players in the NT side as opposed to 144-200 that some of the other NT's usually have on the NT side? If so, then it makes sense cuz everything is cut in half??

thats 5k added cash... added to the total of : entry fees - PDGA/local club fees - players pack
I assumed that was understood that excluding fees, but player packs are not counted for pro divisions in payout calculations, just for Ams. Greens fees of any sort can also be deducted in addition to PDGA fees for pro divisions.

$5000 added is still $5000 added regardless of the pro field size.

It's the other way around. Maybe the Lone Star will consider bidding to host an NT. As I recall, not having cement tee pads was the Texas issue before that didn't meet NT guidelines.

I find it hard to believe the cement tee offs would be a qualification or something that would prevent an event from becoming an NT. ( I'm wondering if actual top pros helped with this rule).

I'd think teeing off from a nice bent grass tee off on ball golf course would be the best case scenario for an NT event. ( but then again, I'm a big fan of Natural tees off)

We recently started using a long pile ( 2-3/4") synthetic turf tees and they are getting great reviews.
In my opinion, they are just as good as concrete with a lot less less wear and tear on the body!

GREEN TEE'S!

I'm pretty sure that not having cement tees was one of the main factors that caused Houston to pull out of the NT several years ago when they were on the early schedule like this event today. Cement tees was agreed upon as a criteria by whoever was on the NT committee at the time which included several top pros and TDs.

I assumed that was understood that excluding fees, but player packs are not counted for pro divisions in payout calculations, just for Ams. Greens fees of any sort can also be deducted in addition to PDGA fees for pro divisions.

$5000 added is still $5000 added regardless of the pro field size.


obviously players packs are not part of listed payout


but the "cost" of the players pack can still be deducted from total payout, right? so the payout for a 100 person NT would be 12500 - fees - "cost" of players pack + added cash.


yes, TDs know this but the majority of people reading this thread(and definitely the ones just looking @ the results) don't.

The Memorial uses some natural
tee pads. They also have about three
tee pads that are on rocky paths. Very
uneven and slippery.

I think it should be based on the quality of the
tee area and not just the type of material that makes
the tee area.

Is a mistake allowed? Come on bgwvdave. Am I so off base!

in that situation ron no it is not allowed. sorry man but that was pretty big in my opinion. but i am sure we all know about opinions. mine is scoreing in a major take a second to double check. the scores where so delayed at that point to oppertunity to double check was there. the people doing the scores work is appreciated but i am a huge fan of competitive disc golf and that typo almost gave me a heart attack:-)

but the "cost" of the players pack can still be deducted from total payout, right? so the payout for a 100 person NT would be 12500 - fees - "cost" of players pack + added cash.
No. I cannot be deducted for pros. Of course, any player pack cost is deducted for determining the overall tournament net income/loss, just not pro payout. Example: Pro Entry fee at a B-tier is $60 of which $2 goes to ace fund, $3 to PDGA and $5 for greens fees and pros also get a player pack that cost the TD $10. The amount going to pro payout still has to be $50 ($60-2-3-5) per pro, not $40 ($60-2-3-5-10). No credit is given for player packs in the calculation for overall pro payout either. Note: If that was a $60 Am entry fee, then the amount going to payout would be just $35 if that player pack that cost $10 had a $15 retail value.

The Memorial uses some natural
tee pads. They also have about three
tee pads that are on rocky paths. Very
uneven and slippery.

I think it should be based on the quality of the
tee area and not just the type of material that makes
the tee area.
That was then. This is now. There is no NT Committee that includes a dozen or so TDs and players like there was when Houston pulled out partly due to tee quality (rain is typically an issue this time of year for that event in Houston so "going natural" was risky). As such, the quality of course and venue doesn't necessarily have required minimums if other factors like added cash, strength of host team and location are solid enough.

The Memorial would likely not have cut it as an NT venue if the original standards the initiators of the NT were shooting for (such as courses isolated from pedestrian traffic on the fairways). But we have yet to get the big national sponsor to underwrite the NT as originally visualized either. So sites that do host NTs now do the best they can and all factors are considered for getting the bid. It's all part of the growing pains in our sport for what we'd like versus what is possible. Raising $5000 cash added has been no small feat in this economy. So I think we all give props to those hosts who continue to deliver that and more each year for the NT events.

but player packs are not counted for pro divisions in payout calculations, just for Ams.

I'd like someone to explain to me why the AM's continue to get shafted, since most of our money goes to support the Pro division. With the above comment, it seems to be robbery of a division that continues to support disc golf financially. Now I'm not complining about my prizes or players pack. Sun King did more then an excellent job in giving me my value for my entry fee, in fact I think Mike went well above what my expectations were. A lot of TD's don't have this attitude though. There's been many times were the Pro field was 20-30, and the AM's were 70-100 with a weak payout. I'm not trying to take anything away from the SSS, but Chuck made the comment. So this is just a general question.

Jar, look at the value of the players pack that we are comparing between am and pro. Pro got a hand towell and a mini. ams got a nice disc and a bunch of other stuff (shirt, hat, etc.) They have to take account for the 50+bucks in an am purse. the 5 bucks for the pro pack doesnt make a big difference.

The reality is that Ams are willing to continue playing in record numbers under the financial format that has evolved for our sport. Remember that it's the TDs making the effort to run your events and many do not take anything for their efforts. If Ams feel they are getting the shaft, they can run events with better payouts. Nothing is stopping you from running events and keeping your entry fees in your division and some TDs do that. The IOS series in Illinois is an example.

Bob that's why I was asking the question. I didn't know what the players pack was and that scenario makes sense because it's a low cost item that the TD can eat.

I know that Chuck, that's why Bowling Green AM's will have a super players pack, round give aways and a high payout, no pros to support. believe me I know about working on a volunteer basis with no monetary gain, as I've been doing for the BG AM's. The pay off is having AM's walk away with their monies worth. When I got involved with planning the 2010 BG AM's that was the main focal point, all AM money goes to the AM's. It's only fair. Now if the TD gets tons of sponserships with Merch, I have no problem with my cash going to the Pro's as was the case with Roscoe's Revenge last year. The value exceeded the entry fee. The Am's need to be taken care as much as the Pro's, as they do in Southern Nationals. Int winner took home over $900 in Merch last year at the SN AM Championships, what did the Adv winner take home at World's?

Like I stated before, Mike and Sun King did an excellent job with the players pack and prizes, not to mention the over the top CTP prizes. These are the TD's that I love because they hold the Am's in high value. I just wish more TD's would do the same.

I wish TDs would consider themselves in higher esteem for their efforts and actually keep a fair percentage of the tournament income for their team so Ams AND Pros wouldn't feel so entitled.

I wish TDs would consider themselves in higher esteem for their efforts and actually keep a fair percentage of the tournament income for their team so Ams AND Pros wouldn't feel so entitled.


Well said Chuck! You will not get any disagreement from me, I hope that one day this will be the case. Being a TD is a thankless job that's why I'm always sure to thank the TD at least twice no matter what the perks are.

No. I cannot be deducted for pros. Of course, any player pack cost is deducted for determining the overall tournament net income/loss, just not pro payout. Example: Pro Entry fee at a B-tier is $60 of which $2 goes to ace fund, $3 to PDGA and $5 for greens fees and pros also get a player pack that cost the TD $10. The amount going to pro payout still has to be $50 ($60-2-3-5) per pro, not $40 ($60-2-3-5-10). No credit is given for player packs in the calculation for overall pro payout either. Note: If that was a $60 Am entry fee, then the amount going to payout would be just $35 if that player pack that cost $10 had a $15 retail value.



then where does that money come from lol? It DOES get taken out of overall tournament income before payout, its just that with the required added cash it is more than made up for. TDs can still spend money on players packs, but with their added cash they still easily meet their payout % requirements. So ya clearly from the PDGA's perspective as long as they meet requirements its fine, but of course its one of the reasons that tournament payouts have been stagnant for years with a few exceptions.


I'm happy this tournament did not give out big players packs to pros. But in the past year I've been to plenty of NTs who have...sometimes donated items which is fine, but in other instances the payout has suffered because of TDs using tournament income to give pros stuff they don't need or already have(those chairs @ Green Country were a great example of this).

Guess I(and I know many others) are sick of poor NT payouts, especially when we got a players pack of stuff we will never use/throw. Its worked great for me as a TD because I collected a lot of cool prizes last year...but aren't NTs supposed to be geared towards our top pros?


Next year there should be a 3 tournament NT schedule: Beaver State, Minnesota, Vibram...the rest are just A tiers that sanction themselves as NTs

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then where does that money come from lol? It DOES get taken out of overall tournament income before payout, its just that with the required added cash it is more than made up for. TDs can still spend money on players packs, but with their added cash they still easily meet their payout % requirements. So ya clearly from the PDGA's perspective as long as they meet requirements its fine, but of course its one of the reasons that tournament payouts have been stagnant for years with a few exceptions.


I'm happy this tournament did not give out big players packs to pros. But in the past year I've been to plenty of NTs who have...sometimes donated items which is fine, but in other instances the payout has suffered because of TDs using tournament income to give pros stuff they don't need or already have(those chairs @ Green Country were a great example of this).

Guess I(and I know many others) are sick of poor NT payouts, especially when we got a players pack of stuff we will never use/throw. Its worked great for me as a TD because I collected a lot of cool prizes last year...but aren't NTs supposed to be geared towards our top pros?


Next year there should be a 3 tournament NT schedule: Beaver State, Minnesota, Vibram...the rest are just A tiers that sanction themselves as NTs


well and I thought the Players Cup did great with such a top heavy payout, I thought they pulled alot of big guns going for the cash, why spread it out, why not have top heavy tournys, make it competitve, right???
all other Tourny's I understand, but NT should be about Pros trying to get a paycheck right???

So in watching the footage I can't help but comment on Climo's comment about pictures being taken before release. He stated it was from someone in the PDGA who should know better. What I don't understand is why whoever was taking those shots during the tourney didn't silence their shutter on the camera? I'm guessing Climo was referring to BG, because I know he generally shoots at big events. Does whoever was shooting for the PDGA care to comment?

RIGHT...RIGHT,....cause HFDS (houston) could handle an NT . no way.
I would hope NT would pay out more than that, but I guess they didnt get alot of added cash. ???

Houston needs to learn how to run an A tier and cater to pros before they ever try and bark up an NT !

Did I ever bring HFDS into this? No.

So in watching the footage I can't help but comment on Climo's comment about pictures being taken before release. He stated it was from someone in the PDGA who should know better. What I don't understand is why whoever was taking those shots during the tourney didn't silence their shutter on the camera? I'm guessing Climo was referring to BG, because I know he generally shoots at big events. Does whoever was shooting for the PDGA care to comment?

I don't really see how a shutter noise could or would distract a player unless the photographer was within 5 feet. At a distance of 20-30 feet you can barley hear anything unless the photographer is shooting 10 clicks. The advantage of digital SLR's is that there super silent. I remember back in the old days when I would be shooting ball golf and the end of the roll and my camera would automatically begin to rewind the film. Now you talk about LOUD and distracting. The best way to prevent this is to get a 180-300mm lens and stand 50-100 feet away so there's no visual or sound distraction. Nonetheless he still shot a 1083 rated round which is unbelievable.

So in watching the footage I can't help but comment on Climo's comment about pictures being taken before release. He stated it was from someone in the PDGA who should know better. What I don't understand is why whoever was taking those shots during the tourney didn't silence their shutter on the camera? I'm guessing Climo was referring to BG, because I know he generally shoots at big events. Does whoever was shooting for the PDGA care to comment?

BG was not at the Sunshine State Shootout and he does know better. :)

We should all be aware that when we get our sport to the level we all want it to be with major sponsors and thousands of spectators, the distractions, interuptions and delays will only increase. A big difference in traditional golf and disc golf is that the ball golfer is always looking down at his ball and is far less likely to be distracted by spectators and movement than a disc golfer who has his/her eyes on the target. All that being said, a responsible photographer should always do whatever they need to do to ensure that they are not distracting the competitors.

I'm pretty sure that not having cement tees was one of the main factors that caused Houston to pull out of the NT several years ago when they were on the early schedule like this event today. Cement tees was agreed upon as a criteria by whoever was on the NT committee at the time which included several top pros and TDs.
I guess that's changed... per the current NT agreement it's only a recommendation, not a requirement:

4.3.7 All courses are recommended to have non-earthen tee pads located at or above ground level.
--http://www.pdga.com/documents/national-tour-agreement

I agree with Dave, some green tees are better than concrete. it depends on course. If the greass is level and nicely cut I would prefer grass tee's than concrete, whcich is harder on my knees and shoes.

The Tee's at Houston this weekend were great. all grass.

In theory, NT courses are supposed to be ones that have been played before and tested in other events. In which case, it's unlikely grass tees on those courses would be in good shape if it was a course in the ground for a while. Of course that guideline isn't really being followed this year anyway with (I'm assuming) both Sunshine courses being untested in competition until the NT and Castle Rock for the Majestic not even open until April 15th, for example.

Where's the results for the AM side?

BG was not at the Sunshine State Shootout and he does know better. :)

We should all be aware that when we get our sport to the level we all want it to be with major sponsors and thousands of spectators, the distractions, interuptions and delays will only increase. A big difference in traditional golf and disc golf is that the ball golfer is always looking down at his ball and is far less likely to be distracted by spectators and movement than a disc golfer who has his/her eyes on the target. All that being said, a responsible photographer should always do whatever they need to do to ensure that they are not distracting the competitors.

Bingo.
I was hoping it wasn't you, but have seen you toting a camera many times in the past.
Thanks for the clarification.

That was then. This is now. There is no NT Committee that includes a dozen or so TDs and players like there was when Houston pulled out partly due to tee quality (rain is typically an issue this time of year for that event in Houston so "going natural" was risky). As such, the quality of course and venue doesn't necessarily have required minimums if other factors like added cash, strength of host team and location are solid enough.

The Memorial would likely not have cut it as an NT venue if the original standards the initiators of the NT were shooting for (such as courses isolated from pedestrian traffic on the fairways). But we have yet to get the big national sponsor to underwrite the NT as originally visualized either. So sites that do host NTs now do the best they can and all factors are considered for getting the bid. It's all part of the growing pains in our sport for what we'd like versus what is possible. Raising $5000 cash added has been no small feat in this economy. So I think we all give props to those hosts who continue to deliver that and more each year for the NT events.

Agreed... but if a lowly B tier in Jacksonville can add over $7750 to their pro payout... then I'm thinking it can done elsewhere.... Although with that being said...Jacksonville does have a tournament committee consisting of 10 people and a few local members stepping up with large sponsorships as well.

Having played in both PRO and AM events, I feel something needs to be done about the entire AM payout across the board. I've always believed in that pay for performance and not pay just because I signed up. Players packs are great, but this is being abused by many. AM Payout in Jacksonville was more then entry fees collected. Thus all AM money went back to the AM's. Not a dime was added to the PRO side of our event.

It hasn't always been so easy for us... but once we partnered with a charity and raised money for them in addition to the money raised for the added Pro Cash, the sponsors started lining up to help.

AM money needs to stay in the AM events!!!

In theory, NT courses are supposed to be ones that have been played before and tested in other events. In which case, it's unlikely grass tees on those courses would be in good shape if it was a course in the ground for a while. Of course that guideline isn't really being followed this year anyway with (I'm assuming) both Sunshine courses being untested in competition until the NT and Castle Rock for the Majestic not even open until April 15th, for example.

There have been 3 tourneys held at Pine Oaks before the NT. 1st was an unsanctioned am-friendly 1 day. The final day of the Silver Springs Shootout last year was held there, and there was a 1 day pro tourney to decide the State USDGC spot last year. All the others were on natural pads with the final 6 holes being different.

Economic times I am sure have made it much more difficult to raise funds in a state that depends upon tourism as nearly its only source of income. Jax is just full of disc golfers that continually give back to the sport and have set themselves up with the local community through chairitable donations and involvement. In turn they are seeing increased support from the community. Those guys are good at what they do.

Oh and Way to go John E McCray on taking down the field in Jax

Mike Barnett did a great job with the only Florida NT in several years. Consider he put this together without the benefit of running multiple and consecutive years. Also consider, and this is a big one, that Ocala is a tiny city for generating sponsors. Obviously there are more businesses and resources to tap into in larger FL markets like Orlando, Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville. Lastly, Ocala doesn't have a super active DG club supporting him in a similar way as Orlando, Jacksonville and Sarasota (Sky Pilot Nation).

PineOaks is just one of the many projects Mike has successfully completed in Florida, raising awareness and prestige for our sport. Now in Sarasota, I expect Mike will add 2-3 more courses and attract another large event to the Gulf Coast.

You've probably already heard that the Players Cup is back in 2011, in a unique match-play format which will commence in November at PineOaks on the new Gold 18-hole layout. Learn more at the Vibram website.
http://www.vibramdiscgolf.com/playerscup/