In one of the two one-day events in my area last weekend, I noticed that, in the Pro Masters division, there were nine players, four of which normally play Pro GM, and for whatever reason, maybe to make one large division instead of two small ones, they all decided to play Pro Masters.

Seeing this made me uncomfortable. I turned 50 last year, so I could start playing Pro GM, which I was really looking forward to, which explains why I played as many events as I did last year, more last year than I played in my last four years in total as a Pro Master.

I don’t know if this mass movement up to Masters at this event was prompted by the GM players or by the TD, that really doesn’t matter to me. What does matter to me is how I would be perceived by the players if I said no thanks, I really wanted to play with y’all in the same division. Even if the first round started with all the GM aged players together, and even if the TD said that he would keep all the GM aged players together as a group, which the TD really shouldn’t do, I still would not do it. I would enjoy keeping the GM fellowship, but not at the expense of being less competitive in my division.

Also, I had watched the pre-registration for this event, in case things had worked out for me, and I could have played. I can’t swear to it, but I believe that I saw, in the latest update that there were at least two people registered in the Pro GM division, so I knew that if I registered, we would have a three person division, which meant that it would have to be offered.

So let’s say I registered as a Pro GM, and the morning of the event, I saw the other two gentlemen who had registered as Pro GMs, so everything was cool, but at the players’ meeting, it was suggested, either by the TD or the GMs, to combine to make one larger division. Here are the options as I see them:

1) I decide to move up to Masters with the rest of them, so as not to make waves or hard feelings. Everyone is happy but me.

2) I say that I would really prefer to play as a GM.

a) The other GMs agree to stay GMs. I am happy, but what would be the likely feelings of the other GMs, not to mention the Masters, who would have had their pot sweetened, feel? Would the GMs have any resentment toward me, or would they be silently relieved, because maybe they really didn’t want to move up either, but they did not want to cause any conflict with the person or persons who offered the suggestion?

b) The other GMs move up anyway, leaving me without a division. I either move up or go home, not being happy either way.

Another example, which has actually happened in an event I participated in, was that we had three plus GMs, but only one or two Masters players, and the TD, instead of telling the Masters players that they would need to play Open, asked the GMs if they would play Masters so that these two players could compete in an age-protected division.

The only solution I can see is that, if three players or more are preregistered for a division, and at least three of those players do not drop out and actually participate in the event, then the TD must offer that division, and require all players to stay in the division for which they registered, and this rule must be known beforehand, so that players know, when they preregister, that if the division for which they registered “makes”, then they must play in that division.

One option the TD could offer to such a player is to re-register in the higher division, if there is still room, but forfeit the entry fee for their original entry. I doubt anyone would do that, but if someone registered as a GM, and saw that there was a small, strong GM field, and a large, weak Masters field, they could switch divisions by such re-registration.

I don’t want to be seen as the bad guy, for going against the wishes of the majority of my division, but I want to stand up for myself, too, because I had reasonable expectations of playing in the division for which I registered, because I saw that there were a sufficient number of pre-registrants in my division, but on the morning of the event, I am being pressured into moving up. I would much rather take such a decision out of anyone’s hands, thereby avoiding any hard feelings altogether, by requiring the division to be offered, if there were at least three preregistered in that division on the morning of the event.

With the present conditions of division-hopping, I am really torn about registering for an event that doesn’t have very many GMs, or for that matter, very many Masters, preregistered, because of the very real situation of someone wanting to combine the two divisions, and no one offering any objections, other than me.

Am I being unreasonable? Are my thought out of line with the prevailing tournament culture? What do y’all think?

Even more disturbing. The 998 rated master played open both days and his score would have only tied last cash in masters at Turner.

Even more disturbing than that! A master played open on Sunday and tied Eric McCabe in 4th only 2 strokes off Nikko in 2nd.

Both these players had generous leads over the mix of grandmaster advanced master and masters player that made up Sunday's masters field.

I don't really have a point here...

If you are really worried about it just call up Jeremy and ask him what went down.

Silliman beats Hall!!!!!! Yes!!! :)

Isn't there a rule that if 3 people sign up, the division must be offered? or Are you saying that they shouldn't have the choice to bail upwards at the last minute?

At any rate, this is pretty unusual for those guys as they usually stick to GM.

I turned 50 last year, so I could start playing Pro GM,


You turned 50 just to start playing Pro GM? WoW that's dedication! ;) Just poking a little.....


We have 1 pro grandmaster in our town, and a few others from the area that come in for our big event: The Crush on the Concho...which by the way is next month if your looking!Anyway since he(Carl Wamsley) has turned 50 he has had a lot of trouble keeping those guy from playing Adv. Masters over ProMasters much less ProGrandmasters. He even offered a $100 bouty to anyone that could come down and beat him in ProGrandmasters, and they still went open masters or adv. masters. So seems like it's something that happens a lot. Maybe the guys were just hunting a bigger payday?

There were only 3 Masters signed up Saturday morning and 6 Grandmasters. One of the Masters was a no show so the other Grandmasters decided to combine. Just before the tournament started a last minute newly eligible Master age player signed up and took the open Masters spot and made it to the tee just before the end of the 2 min. warning.

Sunday had 2 Masters, 2 Grandmasters and 2 Advanced Masters. One Advanced Master moved to Intermediate and the other one decided to give Masters a try even though he is now eligible for Grandmasters. And again the Grandmasters decided to combine.

Oh, and Giles I think you ment 968 rated. Don't know of any 998 Masters/GM Masters that played this weekend.

Giles is talking about Zach Walker he is rated 998 and is of masters age

The thing with age-based Pro divisions is that it is still a Pro division. Someone who is 55 is not relegated to play Grandmasters strictly due to age, so it is really in his best interest to seek out the largest field (assuming he feels comfortable with the competition). It is not uncommon to see last minute shuffling of divisions depending on turnout. Unfortunately, Exczar, in a lot of areas the pool of Pro Grandmasters players is not too large, so you may just want to prepare yourself for your fellow aged golfers to jump ship if it comes down to playing in a division with 4 guys or 15.

Having been in the 50s for several years now, I've been playing in several divisions that I qualify for depending on who and how many show up. In 2009 I played in five different divisions although all of the Open events were Super Class. The other four were regular golf discs:
http://www.pdga.com/player-stats?PDGANum=4949&year=2009

In some cases, the division I ended up in was not the one I signed up for when players decided to shift around based on how may showed up. I never did not play because I didn't like the division changes although I DNF'd in the last round for the first time ever at Lexington due to miserable rainy weather in the overflowing swampland of Riney B.

Man I have this problem all the time...I sign up in a division and they all scatter:D

I wouldn't suggest a rule change or mandating players play the oldest division for which they qualify, but it would be nice if players who decide to switch divisions on the morning of an event would take into consideration, not just themselves, but how their switch will affect others.

This happens all the time. It is not a disturbing trend. It is what it is. (This has been common practice for many years so I would not call it a trend, but rather the status quo.)

We do not need to make a new rule because some 50 year old guy doesn't want to play Pro Masters or Open Men or Advanced Men or Advanced Masters or even Intermediate!! You are very lucky to have so many different playing options. There are a lot of men under 40 and plenty of women players that wished they had 6 different divisions to choose from on game day.

Are you upset because your preferred division has the smallest player pool and apparently your fellow Grandmasters are taking advantage of the other division options? Like them, you should embrace your options. Find out what division they are playing and have fun playing with them (or donating with or to them) or don't play at all. But please don't come on here and tell us about how unhappy you are because you may have to play in one of five other divisions. Boo hoo for you.

There are way too many divisions!
If there were less divisions, there would be much more improvement in play and competition would be much better and less constant complaining about who plays what divisions. Why would you want to play in a division with just 3 people, I think that is pointless, there should be at least 8 players to form a division (2 cards) I think our sport needs to simplify things a bit, to make it easier for players to decide what division they want to/have to play.

OPEN male/female
Masters OPEN 40+ male/female
Grandmasters OPEN 55+ male/female
Legends OPEN 70+ male/female

Amateur male/female (anyone with amateur status with rating below 950)
Intermediate male/female (anyone with with amateur status with rating below 900)
Novice male/female (anyone with amateur status with rating below 850)

And the obvious junior divisions going by 2 year separations no matter of rating as long as they keep their amateur status.

Giles is talking about Zach Walker he is rated 998 and is of masters age

Cool, don't know if I've met Zach yet? Sounds like he'll be giving Ron and Vinnie a run for their money though. :D

Davidsauls,

Thank you for your post. It goes along the lines of what I was discussing. And I did not want to mandate that a player must play the oldest division for which they qualify. I do not want to restrict players from changing divisions on the morning of the event. I was just suggesting that there could be consequences for them doing so, especially when such changing eliminates the offering of a previously offered division.

Discette,

"Disturbing" is a subjective term. If it is not disturbing to you, then fine, but do not dismiss my opinion by stating that it is not disturbing. You want to say, it is not disturbing to you, I can respect and understand that.

And I did not mean for my post to come across and whiny and boo-hoo, but I respect that you have interpreted it as such, so I will not state that "My post was not whiny". Except when trying to express my personal opinion, I was trying to be as logical and dispassionate as I could.

All,

Let me state again that my initial concern is in no way a slam against the TD or the players that move. I would just like to see some mechanism in place that assures a player that, in the specific case where three or more players preregister in a specific division in a specific event, then that division will be offered at the event, regardless of how many of those initial 3+ preregistrants choose to stay and compete in that division for which they preregistered.

The bottom line is, if a division is advertised for an event, and the pre-registration shows that three or more are registered for that event, then that division should be available at the event. Now if it is an event where everyone signs up in person the evening before and/or the morning of the event, then "you pays your money, you takes your chances" and you get what you get, as far as what divisions are offered. I get that, and that�s fine with that.

I�m just saying that I have expectations when I register for a PDGA event. I expect that the event will be held in accordance with PDGA rules. As we all know, the TD can choose to disregard the PDGA rules, and enact rules that may go directly against the PDGA rules, and we have no choice but to follow them, and our only recourse is to file a complaint with the PDGA about the TD�s actions, but that would occur only after the event. Bottom line, there probably will be people who will be displeased.

Likewise, when I preregister for an event, and I can see the registration list, I expect that a division will be offered at the event if there are three or more persons preregistered for it. If that division ends up not being offered, there may be people who will be displeased. Is having said expectation being unreasonable or whiny?<O:p</O:p

What if three players already pre-reg'd in your division all withdraw before the event because they didn't see enough players in their division let's say. It does happen. How would this be any different from all three switching to another division? It's likely the TD already has a trophy for your division so the TD could still run a one man division. But why should the TD be forced to?

Chuck,

My scenario stated that at least three of the players showed up at the event. If players withdraw before the start of the event, that is another matter, and that is indeed different that those players showing up and switching divisions.

The last paragraph of your post simply said if at least three preregistered, not that they showed up or not.

Chuck,

My scenario stated that at least three of the players showed up at the event. If players withdraw before the start of the event, that is another matter, and that is indeed different that those players showing up and switching divisions.


Exactly what is wrong with players showing up and changing divisions? It is common practice at events and it happens for many different reasons. The PDGA does not need to put another rule into place disallowing division changing or forcing TD's to keep divisions open that don't have four players (even if four were pre-registered).


Sorry you are not happy, but the simple solution here is to play in another division. I do understand your frustration at not having enough players in your "preferred" division. Most female players share the exact same sentiment. But the fact remains that you still have FIVE other divisions to choose from. You also have the option to not play at all.

There are many reasons for wanting to play in a certain division, and it is not always forr the money. I don't play near as many tournaments as I used to but it is a bit frustrating at times not to be able to play the division you perfer. I know next year when I (unfortunately) reach the age to play Senior Grandmaster I hope there are others signing up to play the division. Much like as I to think I can play in any division I know I will not be able to keep up with 50 year olds much less them punk 40 year olds! In reality there are many of those lovely ladies out there I can't keep up with...but will keep throwing!

I can't even get words in the right order anymore...

There are way too many divisions!

<snip>

OPEN male/female
Masters OPEN 40+ male/female
Grandmasters OPEN 55+ male/female
Legends OPEN 70+ male/female
Amateur male/female
Intermediate male/female
Novice male/female

I still say we are way too small to have so many over-lapping-skill cash paying divisions. I suggest the following divisional structure for men, with a mirrored structure for women with different ratings breaks for Ams:

Open: just like it says, open to all. The only division that pays out in cash.

MA1: Anyone under 975
MA2: Anyone under 935
MA3: Anyone under 900
MA4: Anyone under 850
MAx: add as many as you like for even lower ratings if you have the players

MM1: Anyone under 975 and 40 or older
MG1: Anyone under 975 and 50 or older
MS1: Anyone under 975 and 60 or older
ML1: Anyone under 975 and 70 or older

Juniors MJ1-MJ4 like now.


Oh yeah, one more caveat: Don't charge $100+ for your Open division entry fees UNLESS YOU HAVE MORE OPEN PLAYERS THAN YOU WANT AND ARE TRYING TO DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM SIGNING UP!

That should do it. The division hopping age-protected pros who are searching for the best payday, and happen to be the highest rated age-protected players, will play in Open and make that division bigger again. The age-protected guys that claim they play age-protected for the better company can prove it by playing for prizes in the age protected am divisions. Blah blah blah. 950 rated 30-something pros can play advanced and be competitive. Keep the open entry fee a lot less than double the MA1 entry fee and I think it would work wonders for the competitive aspect of our sport.

BTW, I'm two years from 50 and will never cash in Open, so please don't assume that I would benefit from your entry fee in Open if you are an irate MPM player!