whos plannin to make the pilgramage to tyler texas for the piney woods pro am????

There are a few of us from Norman planning on going. For those tha haven't been before, it's a very well run tournament with great payout and on three different courses all in the same park. Every hole has alternate tee and/or pin placements. You will never play the same hole twice.

I will be there!!! How long of a drive is it?

whos plannin to make the pilgramage to tyler texas for the piney woods pro am????

I will be headed that way toooo!!! This is a really good tourny... Once you go, you will keep going back!!! Can't wait!!

Wher have you been? I was starting to think you had gotten a full time job some where.:cool:

I think I may head south of OKC for the 1st time ever on this one. Need to play some new courses and this looks like it could be fun.

The Memorial is the first weekend in March. This is the easiest NT to reach from Tulsa, thanks to Southwest Airlines direct, non-stop flights to Phoenix. I understand that the event fills up fast. Online registration is now open, and I am signed up (they have about 90 registered so far). I plan to fly in a day or two early, and to rent a car. If anyone else wants to go to this event, I can help with ground transportation. Call me or pm me.

How about this from the Piney Woods discussion page!!

Now a USDGC qualifier!!!

You, asked and Innova has come through, the Piney Woods Pro-Am VI will be the first USDGC qualifier for 2010!!! Do not hesitate to enter, this may be your only chance for this region to qualify!

Thanks to all those that wrote in and spoke with Innova, your good words and letters are what pulled this event into this awesome series.

If anyone has room for an extra person for the Piney Woods tourney, let me know.. thank you

http://www.wetv.com/photo-galleries/the-fbi-files-the-crazy-don/Body-found-in-car-trunk.jpg

:d:d:d

man dead!!!!
that tourney at piney woods was a challenge.
those courses have some boring holes but the other holes will humble you.
the dogwood course uses some of the most beutiful land ive seen.
some of those holes are sick!!!!
the scores that the men Yeti and Nikko shot are sick as well.
if you misssed this event you dont want to next year.

This event was horrible! Now yes I did not score well but that has nothing to do with my opinion of this event.

There was no water provided too the players all weekend.

Scorecards had too be written out by the top player on the card.

They used a rule that is not in the rulebook that allowed players affected by the 2 meter rule too take up to 5 meters behind the disc.

2 of the 3 coarses would be what k-mac refers to as "poke and hope coarses", where luck is rewarded more often than skill.

many players complained about how new the Dogwood coarse played, it was referred to as Blackhawk at Worlds but worse.

short lunches "P.D.G.A. suggests possibly even requires 1 1/2 hours after the last card is turned in."

Pro's were awarded last, which means they get too thank their sponsors in front of just a few people "most of which were other pro's already sponsored"

Now some of this stuff might seem small but this was an A/B tier which is supposed too be one of our premier events in this sport, and it felt like a C tier.

I don't see myself going back if the tournament is still under current management.

hrm, i wasn't there but those things you mentioned would be things that would bug me too. minus the lunch thing, because theres only like 10 hours in the day and you cant start playing at 7.

so congrats to coda on the USDGC qualifying spot! even though it is pretty much assumed he will go every year, it is nice for him to have it locked down early on! way to battle back.

josh throwing over 1000+ with DISCRAFT... way to go bud... keep ur heads up adam and devan... you guys will have some major breakthroughs in 2010.

travis and seth, u guys better smoke those texans next time around! (or stay here and try to beat 8 down at riverside!!! lol....)

This event was horrible! Now yes I did not score well but that has nothing to do with my opinion of this event.

There was no water provided too the players all weekend.

Scorecards had too be written out by the top player on the card.

They used a rule that is not in the rulebook that allowed players affected by the 2 meter rule too take up to 5 meters behind the disc.

2 of the 3 coarses would be what k-mac refers to as "poke and hope coarses", where luck is rewarded more often than skill.

many players complained about how new the Dogwood coarse played, it was referred to as Blackhawk at Worlds but worse.

short lunches "P.D.G.A. suggests possibly even requires 1 1/2 hours after the last card is turned in."

Pro's were awarded last, which means they get too thank their sponsors in front of just a few people "most of which were other pro's already sponsored"

Now some of this stuff might seem small but this was an A/B tier which is supposed too be one of our premier events in this sport, and it felt like a C tier.

I don't see myself going back if the tournament is still under current management.

No water on the course was an issue.

I've played in many events, especially in Texas where filling out the card is common. This saves time for the TD and staff and allows the players to get out to the course sooner.

The 5 meter relief was only allowed if you were over 2 meters in a ceder tree. The PDGA was petitioned and has allowed this every year.

I guess the top pros were just lucky.

The Dogwood course is new. I'd look to see a few of the holes change a little. Most of the holes you had to just hit your line. This course had some true 4 and 5 par holes unlike anything I've seen in Oklahoma.

The short lunch on Saturday was a problem. There just wasn't enough daylight to allow much more time. I personally had almost 2 hours on Sunday.

I've been to many tournaments where Pro's were payed out last. Not a big deal to me.

The normal TD for this event had faimly issues and will be back next year.

Thanks Kyle, I was just going to tell them there was a last minute TD change just so the event could go on. I wouldn't judge the event soley on this year. You guys need to give Jerry a chance, he'll make it right.

Matthew,

I want to apologize. There should have been water out there. I asked the club to get water out on Friday morning and it was traded around and dropped. It was my responsibility and I felt bad about it when I found out that it had been forgotten. I am very good about making sure those sort of things are caught, I simply could not make the event and some things were dropped. This was not Josh's fault. He left the logistics up to me.

As for the scorecards being filled out by the first player on the card, that is a very common thing here in Texas. It forces the TD to have the hole assignments posted before the start so that players are not scrambling to find where they are to go because they missed the card call out. I will state that I have a problem with the call out. However, I was thinking about implementing printed cards at this event and with your comments I believe this would be more appropriate for an A Tier and plan on adding this at the next PWO.

As for the 2 meter rule modification, there is no 2 meter rule anymore, unless the TD selects to use it. The change to allow the player 5 meters on the line of play, back from the tree is two fold, it protects the player from hurting themself as they throw out of the tree and it protects the tree from the player. We have quite a few cedar trees on the course and we try to protect them. This does not stop casual players from tearing them up, but during the tournament we do the best we can. Yes you have to play out of them if you throw into them and are below 2 meters, maybe a better solution would be to make all cedars casual relief. I am open to suggestions.

I have to disagree with you on the 2 out of three courses being "poke and hope". K-mac has played Hickory (Blue) before and I asked what he thought of the course. He said he enjoyed and even went on to say he did not understand why some players had problems with the few holes that were in the woods. Now on the Hickory course, there are several holes that we could discuss fairway width about, but this leaves 14 others holes that are not played into trees. By your comment I would have to say that you believe that Blackhawk is a bad course as well and I do not think that it is. On Dogwood the fairways are very tight on several of the holes, I absolutley agree and believe we will need to go back and relook at those holes. Hole 2 and 6 come to mind. On the remaining holes I am not going to argue about width of fairways, because different players have different definitions, but the open players referred to Dogwood as a gem. It is harder than Blackhawk, there is no doubt, but fairways are clearly defined.

Dogwood needs to be played in. We worked hard to get the course corrected and I am very pleased with what the Rose City Disc Club accomplished in the time frame we had. There were cement pads on every hole, there was signage, tons of clearing has been done, trees cleared. Tyler does not have a club with 40 to 200 players. There are about 15 consistent players of which 10 or less make most work days. Things will be better next year.

I have already made steps to correct for timing next year. I will close registeration on Friday so that we can get started earlier next year. This may mean fewer registerations and fewer players, but it is essential to make sure you get more time. There was a timing issue with the Cedar course. There is no way the Advanced division should have taken so long to play the course. You played both, surely you would have guessed that Cedar (red) long would play significantly faster than Dogwood. It was probably the rain. As stated that will not happen next year.

As for payout, in years past I run things differently and believe that I payout faster than anyother TD around. Last year I had payout done and everyone off the course by 4:30

I appreciate your comments and will take them to heart to make this a better event. I feel the majority of the problems were in having Josh come in when I could not make it myself. It was not Josh's fault, he was trying to help and got caught between a rock and a hard place. Once again I apologize and would be very happy if you would continue to share with me the things you saw as wrong. I will take your comments to heart and work hard to make this even better. Next year I will be running the event and I don't anticipate anything like the issues we saw this year. If you choose not to come back next year I can understand, but I hope that you reconsider. Thank you for making it this year and you have a PM.

This event was horrible! Now yes I did not score well but that has nothing to do with my opinion of this event.

There was no water provided too the players all weekend.

Scorecards had too be written out by the top player on the card.

They used a rule that is not in the rulebook that allowed players affected by the 2 meter rule too take up to 5 meters behind the disc.

2 of the 3 coarses would be what k-mac refers to as "poke and hope coarses", where luck is rewarded more often than skill.

many players complained about how new the Dogwood coarse played, it was referred to as Blackhawk at Worlds but worse.

short lunches "P.D.G.A. suggests possibly even requires 1 1/2 hours after the last card is turned in."

Pro's were awarded last, which means they get too thank their sponsors in front of just a few people "most of which were other pro's already sponsored"

Now some of this stuff might seem small but this was an A/B tier which is supposed too be one of our premier events in this sport, and it felt like a C tier.

I don't see myself going back if the tournament is still under current management.

This event was horrible! Now yes I did not score well but that has nothing to do with my opinion of this event.

There was no water provided too the players all weekend.

Scorecards had too be written out by the top player on the card.

They used a rule that is not in the rulebook that allowed players affected by the 2 meter rule too take up to 5 meters behind the disc.

2 of the 3 coarses would be what k-mac refers to as "poke and hope coarses", where luck is rewarded more often than skill.

many players complained about how new the Dogwood coarse played, it was referred to as Blackhawk at Worlds but worse.

short lunches "P.D.G.A. suggests possibly even requires 1 1/2 hours after the last card is turned in."

Pro's were awarded last, which means they get too thank their sponsors in front of just a few people "most of which were other pro's already sponsored"

Now some of this stuff might seem small but this was an A/B tier which is supposed too be one of our premier events in this sport, and it felt like a C tier.

I don't see myself going back if the tournament is still under current management.

If blackhawk and Red were not installed almost last minute(many thanks to twoputt), worlds wouldnt have been in Tulsa, even to this day, so tread easy young candy treat.

I really liked the fact that the card leader had the responsibility of filling out and bringing the card to the hole. It allowed you to get to the hole much quicker without worrying about the other players.

I hated Blackhawk at first but now I like it when it's dry. :D

This event was horrible! Now yes I did not score well but that has nothing to do with my opinion of this event.
I'm not going to be quite as diplomatic as Jerry with my response

There was no water provided too the players all weekend.
As Jerry said, this was delegated and we both thought it was taken care of. Not one player mentioned it to me during the event, or I would have made sure it happened.

Scorecards had too be written out by the top player on the card.
This is done all the time, and IMO is a good practice. It saves all kinds of time and resources. You are the first person I've ever heard complain about this, and I've done this in almost every tournament I've ever run.

They used a rule that is not in the rulebook that allowed players affected by the 2 meter rule too take up to 5 meters behind the disc.
What's wrong with that? The PDGA allowed it, and they wrote the rulebook... what's your complaint?

2 of the 3 coarses would be what k-mac refers to as "poke and hope coarses", where luck is rewarded more often than skill.
First, it's "courses." Second, RCDC has had feedback from lots of people on these courses over the years, including k-mac. That feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.

many players complained about how new the Dogwood coarse played, it was referred to as Blackhawk at Worlds but worse.
Dogwood is still being perfected, but I'm sorry - you're in the minority on this one. People love these courses, especially Dogwood. Everyone but you seemed to realize that Dogwood is brand new and will be tweaked as feedback is received. Oh, and Dogwood wasn't designed for you anyway. It's an advanced/pro level course. The advanced/pro level players who actually played it during the event had very positive feedback. And the things they didn't like, they at least knew how to form constructively.

short lunches "P.D.G.A. suggests possibly even requires 1 1/2 hours after the last card is turned in."
The PDGA requires no such thing. I could have started round 2 just 5 minutes after round 1 if I had wanted to. I gave as much time as I could before the start of round 2, and we still had daylight issues. Jerry has already stated that he will start round 1 earlier next year to avoid this situation altogether. I didn't set the start times for the players meeting or round 1. I made the best decision I could, given the posted schedule.

Pro's were awarded last, which means they get too thank their sponsors in front of just a few people "most of which were other pro's already sponsored"
Again, you weren't paying attention. There was still a crowd of at least 100 there watching when the final award was handed out. I *always* pay out pros last because amateurs will stay to watch them. Pros tend to leave as soon as they have their money. Out of respect for *all* the players at the event, I pay pros out last. Their awards and speeches are the grand finale for the event.

Now some of this stuff might seem small but this was an A/B tier which is supposed too be one of our premier events in this sport, and it felt like a C tier.
I have had lots and lots of feedback to the contrary. I'm sorry you didn't have a good time, but lots of people did. FWIW, the rain on saturday kept us from doing many of the things we wanted to do but we still had a FlyMart, a silent auction for the charity, huge players packs, lots of added cash and merch, much of which came out of my own pocket.

I don't see myself going back if the tournament is still under current management.
Personally, I'm fine with that. It's nearly impossible to run such a big tournament in the style of another TD, but I think I pulled it off. Sure, I would have done a lot of things differently if it was my event, but I did everything I could to stay true to Jerry's methods. This was also RCDC's first year supporting such a large event, but I think they did a great job. Everyone learned a lot this year and that will help next year be even better. Jerry might want to be more diplomatic but if you can't have even a little bit of respect for the amount of money, time, and energy that Jerry, the RCDC, and I put into this event... then stay home. It'll be your loss, not ours.

Gee and people tell me that my take it or play elsewhere was too harsh!
Glad to see you can still talk plain in Texas :D.

on a side question, how much staff did you have to put on the A/B tier, I am always looking to find the optimum number of full and part time staffers to use on an event and because of questions on staff size I have not attempted any thing higher than "C" tier events.
Also the added cash thing tends to prevent me from staging larger scale events.:(

That really depends on the number of people there. I can run a B tier, pretty much by myself, with some help on adding score cards. I will warn you though, it takes a lot out of you and a ton of planning. Up to this event I had a guy helping to do disc sales and general bodyguarding, and that helps quite a bit. Probably 2 additional players to add cards between rounds, which is usually playing club members. That is for a B tier.

It also helps if the courses are easier. The scores are a whole lot easier to sum.:)

An A tier does take more help, no doubt about it. I am thinking now, that you can only have to many if they start tripping over each other.


Gee and people tell me that my take it or play elsewhere was too harsh!
Glad to see you can still talk plain in Texas :D.

on a side question, how much staff did you have to put on the A/B tier, I am always looking to find the optimum number of full and part time staffers to use on an event and because of questions on staff size I have not attempted any thing higher than "C" tier events.
Also the added cash thing tends to prevent me from staging larger scale events.:(

I'll second Jerry's sentiment on that for sure. In retrospect, I wish I had asked a couple more players to sit it out and help, but I wanted them to enjoy getting to play their own tournament.

It's not strictly the tier of the event, the number of players, or the courses that dictate the difficulty of running an event. It's really a combination of all of these things. For instance, running a 200+ player B-tier on two straightforward courses is easy as pie. Doing the same thing on *three* courses adds difficulty, especially if those three don't play in roughly the same amount of time. It also gets more difficult when the weather doesn't cooperate, or when you have short days. Put some pressure on the players (short lunches, tough courses, USDGC implications, etc)... and you're likely to get drama. Add in some of that player drama, and the difficulty level goes even higher :).

I recommend that an A-tier have one TD per 18-hole course (not just per-park). Not just certified officials, but actual TDs with experience running an event. The more experienced your head TD is, the less experience each of the others can have... but if you want it to go smoothly, you need experienced decision-makers on hand. I also recommend having all of your support staff get their officials card. It's cheap and not too difficult, and it allows you to delegate more responsibility to them as necessary.

Too many is way better than not enough. Hedge your bets!

That said, I need to apologize for being a bit too harsh earlier... but I feel very strongly about the points I was making. Lots of people worked their butts off this past weekend to put on what I (and a whole crapload of other people) felt was a very good tournament. To have someone I don't even know say such terrible things about an event that took so much effort to put on... that just rubs me the wrong way.

I'm not going to be quite as diplomatic as Jerry with my response


As Jerry said, this was delegated and we both thought it was taken care of. Not one player mentioned it to me during the event, or I would have made sure it happened.[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]

"I heard it from several people"

.[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]This is done all the time, and IMO is a good practice. It saves all kinds of time and resources. You are the first person I've ever heard complain about this, and I've done this in almost every tournament I've ever run..[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]

"It's never done that way in Oklahoma, it does not take that long with a volunteer"

..[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]What's wrong with that? The PDGA allowed it, and they wrote the rulebook... what's your complaint?..[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]

"It changes the course, so all players are not playing the same course"

[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]First, it's "courses." Second, RCDC has had feedback from lots of people on these courses over the years, including k-mac. That feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]

"lol you're pulling the vocab card?"

.[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]

Dogwood is still being perfected, but I'm sorry - you're in the minority on this one. People love these courses, especially Dogwood. Everyone but you seemed to realize that Dogwood is brand new and will be tweaked as feedback is received. Oh, and Dogwood wasn't designed for you anyway. It's an advanced/pro level course. The advanced/pro level players who actually played it during the event had very positive feedback. And the things they didn't like, they at least knew how to form constructively..[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]


"I said it was a new course if you would notice, and I do like Dogwood very much so, i was just saying it was too new for an A-Tier thats why I compared it to our Blackhawk coarse, which I have already recieved flack over. "B.T.W. I love Blackhawk but that does not mean it was not too new for 06' Worlds, not saying I am not grateful." Oh and Josh you say the Dogwood coarse was not designed for me? I shot a 7 over blind when I rolled in Thursday morning and had a great time. Thats not too bad if you ask me, and every coarse is for every player. I enjoyed Blue Valley "longest coarse in the world" even though I was 12 up through 12, and what about U.S.D.G.C.? Thats not designed for me right? But I had a blast shooting a 82."

..[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]The PDGA requires no such thing. I could have started round 2 just 5 minutes after round 1 if I had wanted to. I gave as much time as I could before the start of round 2, and we still had daylight issues. Jerry has already stated that he will start round 1 earlier next year to avoid this situation altogether. I didn't set the start times for the players meeting or round 1. I made the best decision I could, given the posted schedule...[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]

"I said recomended and POSSIBLY required"

...[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]Again, you weren't paying attention. There was still a crowd of at least 100 there watching when the final award was handed out. I *always* pay out pros last because amateurs will stay to watch them. Pros tend to leave as soon as they have their money. Out of respect for *all* the players at the event, I pay pros out last. Their awards and speeches are the grand finale for the event....[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]

I was standing stage left of you for the entire thing and there is NO way there were 100 people there, also pro's are the ones that stick around cause they know what's up, the am's are the ones that grab plastic and run."

.[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]I have had lots and lots of feedback to the contrary. I'm sorry you didn't have a good time, but lots of people did. FWIW, the rain on saturday kept us from doing many of the things we wanted to do but we still had a FlyMart, a silent auction for the charity, huge players packs, lots of added cash and merch, much of which came out of my own pocket..[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]

"I had a blast, just thought the event was ran poorly. and huge players pack? How much was your value on that shirt that I am betting cost around $6.00?"

..[QUOTE=baldguy;1405560]Personally, I'm fine with that. It's nearly impossible to run such a big tournament in the style of another TD, but I think I pulled it off. Sure, I would have done a lot of things differently if it was my event, but I did everything I could to stay true to Jerry's methods. This was also RCDC's first year supporting such a large event, but I think they did a great job. Everyone learned a lot this year and that will help next year be even better. Jerry might want to be more diplomatic but if you can't have even a little bit of respect for the amount of money, time, and energy that Jerry, the RCDC, and I put into this event... then stay home. It'll be your loss, not ours.

You did not do a great job, but I am not saying you were not trying. Also I have much respect for Jerry after our pm's the last couple days. I also respect the volunteers and sponsors that helped out. I just can't wait to return next year when he is running it too see how a real TD runs that event."

You did not do a great job, but I am not saying you were not trying. Also I have much respect for Jerry after our pm's the last couple days. I also respect the volunteers and sponsors that helped out. I just can't wait to return next year when he is running it too see how a real TD runs that event."
LOL a "real" TD? After reading your comments here, I don't think you'd know a real TD if you saw one. I've run a ton of events, and none of them had nearly the problems that this one did. You sir, can kiss it. Your opinion doesn't even enter the radar of relevance for this event.

Oh, and you probably should stay home next year. Your negativity is not welcome.

LOL a "real" TD? After reading your comments here, I don't think you'd know a real TD if you saw one. I've run a ton of events, and none of them had nearly the problems that this one did. You sir, can kiss it. Your opinion doesn't even enter the radar of relevance for this event.

Oh, and you probably should stay home next year. Your negativity is not welcome.

I know what a real TD is, my dad is one of the best around. He has been TD for C tiers, B tiers, A tiers, supertours, and a CO-TD for a NT, this is the man that taught me everything I know about that position so since you don't know anything about me maybe you should do some research next time. Oh and my opinion is not relevant? Then why has Jerry already changed something for next year because of one of my pm's too him? Finally it's not negativity, it is criticism there is a difference. See you next year buddy.

Gentlemen,

Could we please take this elsewhere? This is the Tulsa thread......

Guys, I know Josh and he is a good guy. I have spoken with Matthew offline and he seems to be a good guy as well. Both of you have stated that you may have been a bit harsh in his statements. I do know that nothing here is beneficial to the PWO.

For the record, I do not believe Josh did anything wrong and many things right. As I have posted in the Piney Woods thread, he incorporated several things that I plan to add as well. He has received many cudo's from pros, that tour the country, in the job he did at the Piney Woods. Josh runs great events and his work is appreciated all over the US. TitleDisc is the name in online registration and TitleDisc tournaments fill in Texas, not because we have a shortage of events, but because he runs good events.

The simple truth is, Josh stepped in and tried to run a tournament that was set up by me and the Rose City Disc Club. I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Josh. If I were to change anything, I would not try to hold onto the reigns and simply let Josh run an event the way he runs an event. I believe there were some issues, but they were my responsibility. Period.

Josh is respected by many others in the disc golf TD circle. Joe Rottan is one person, who I believe would stand behind Josh. I stand behind Josh.

I am asking that we put principles before personalities and if you gentlemen wish to continue discussing this, please do it with PM's.

Wow Matthew.

I made one little comment about the entry prices on your first and only big event so far at Stillwater and your dad jumped all over me about it.

You didn’t respond directly and I’m sure you didn’t like it and I apologize but now it appears you’re doing the same thing to someone else.

Nobody including myself and your dad runs perfect events and nobody who runs one wants to come on the board on Monday looking for props for the work they did only to see public criticism of the whole event. Most TD's will always second guess their decisions and think about things that could make things go smoother so they don't need to be reminded of it.

I know you think you’re doing the TD and everyone a favor with your event review but the truth is players decide the quality of an event by casual word of mouth amoungst friends or past experience. I've never been to a Texas event but I know a lot of good Okie players usually come back with cash. :rolleyes:

And personally I always do the Pro awards last because just like the Olympics, the gold medal winners always get final recognition. If you want those Ams to stick around then draw score cards and give away a mini basket or some other goodies after you award the Pros.:D

"B.T.W. I love Blackhawk but that does not mean it was not too new for 06' Worlds, not saying I am not grateful." Treat---- Hey its all good.......zooc tell em to quit ********, or to go hang out at furdogs cardboard box

I won worlds in 06 because of Blackhawk. I loved it. Hit the fairway and there are no issues.

"B.T.W. I love Blackhawk but that does not mean it was not too new for 06' Worlds, not saying I am not grateful." Treat---- Hey its all good.......zooc tell em to quit ********, or to go hang out at furdogs cardboard box

Oh if it were really that easy.:p:p

http://icons-pe.wunderground.com/data/wximagenew/b/bridgekeeper/501.jpg

Oh if it were really that easy.:p:p

sunday at dovillo park 1:00 pm lets get together and fly high and dry.
I will be substituting for Mike Treat
the ace pot is starting at 64.00 add to that what players join in.
lets see if a substitute can empty the coffer



come get some Christmas cash!!!!!