There isn't a NT event within 1000 miles of most people in Texas ... what a JOKE! Nice "National Tour". In fact every single event is on the fringes of the boarder of the country.

HEY PDGA ...

A) Expand the schedule ... the best golf in a lot of places in the countryt happend outside of March - August.
B) Make it a priority to get events close to Texas. There is an enormous amount of courses and players here.
C) Aren't Worlds in NY and OH this year? If so, why do they also need a NT event? Spread the wealth.

And I don't want to hear anything about .. well TDs didn't step up. It is on the PDGA to influence the NT events not the other way around.

Misplaced balme. The NT is a bidding process and no Texas sites have bid on hosting one. The PDGA doesn't have the resources to do the local work needed to pull off an NT anywhere they'd like. Texas may have lots of players, but a Texas TD or two plus their club needs to step it up and bid to get an NT. It's not like there are a bunch of acceptable bids getting rejected each year that allows the PDGA to pick and choose.

Maybe they have a bad taste in their mouths from past experience.

not knowing what big events (A tiers) Texas runs (and being too lazy to check the schedule myself) why don't you list some that could potentially be looked at as NTs? Then maybe contact those TDs and ask if they would want to make their event an NT or why they might not want to. Realistically though I would think the place to start would be the state coordinator for Texas (listed as Gary Duke on PDGA.com) and see what his take is. Might be a platform for someone to run under for the next state coordinator spot... "i'll try to bring an NT to Texas"

I do think its sad that people hop on the message board and complain 'why not us' about things... like 'why doesn't my area have a worlds' or 'NT' or whatever when there are openings for Worlds and you don't see people beating down the doors to sign up. Same thing with NTs. Now if you bring to the board that some TDs have tried to get their qualifiable event to be an NT and they're getting shut down... by all means start the witch hunt. It just seems like for now the issue lies locally and not w/ the governing body.

For some TDs i've heard there is no personal motivation to run an NT... they feel like they put in a ton of work and do it for 'the local guys' and could care less about catering to the traveling pro that would skip into town... might have good things to say about the tourney/course or might trash it and show no respect and move to the next NT. Let alone the need to fundraise to have the added cash to be in the NT realm. There was a good table of top $ events from this past year in the latest issue of DG Mag but unfort. my wife already put that issue in the trash so I can't reference it... it might be a good place to look to see what 'big' events might look like potential candidates.

from what i've heard TX used to be on the NT schedule for at least a few years early-mid 2000s? You could see who those TDs were and maybe find out from them if they were ousted by the PDGA or they just decided not to bother being an NT or whatever the story may be.

this just seems to make about as much sense as complaining to the PDGA that you don't have a championship level course in your town.

Maybe they have a bad taste in their mouths from past experience.
As I recall, one of the past issues was an NT requirement that the course(s) have hard surface tee pads other than a few temp holes if needed with rubber mats (not unreasonable IMO) so that excluded one or more of the proposed TX courses.

HEY, PDGA---

Please don't use our resources to create an NT in a place that hasn't offered to host one.


And I don't want to hear anything about .. well TDs didn't step up.

I'll bet you don't.

*

As a PDGA member, you are eligible to organize and submit a bid for an NT, yourself.

There isn't a NT event within 1000 miles of most people in Texas ... what a JOKE! Nice "National Tour". In fact every single event is on the fringes of the boarder of the country.

And I don't want to hear anything about .. well TDs didn't step up. It is on the PDGA to influence the NT events not the other way around.

Just curious Jerry,

But why do you feel it's the PDGA's job to influence NT events? They set up the standards - and those clubs that feel they can or want to try and meet them - do so. So whether or not you want to hear it - the sanctioning level of any and all PDGA events from XC to NT is determined by the TD submitting for sanctioning - period.

I was part of the inaugural NT in 2003 - where I helped run an NT event at Seneca Creek in Gaithersburg, MD - where we raised over $4500 to add to the purse. Our experience with a certain # of traveling players was so bad that we went from NT in '03 to B tier in '04 because we were not interested in catering to the unappreciative, self entitled attitudes that we encountered.

The NT events that I have attended since have not been without a certain amount of that. So I applaud those clubs and TD's who are willing to do the work required to put on such an event. Bottom line - it's not on the PDGA to make a bid and come run the event.

So, what is the benefit of being an NT vs a regular A-tier? Is it just to get more of the travelling Pro's to come?

As I recall, one of the past issues was an NT requirement that the course(s) have hard surface tee pads other than a few temp holes if needed with rubber mats (not unreasonable IMO) so that excluded one or more of the proposed TX courses.

Yes, and that requirement wasn't given any time to be put in. EX: We need you guys to install 36 permanment tee boxes before April..........not like have them within a two year period. Like a business plan, imagine.

The thought that a long standing event would not be given time to get that accomplished illustrated the lack of flexibility from decision makers. And we all know how good things went this past year.

What about the Women's Nationals this year, A major without anyone from PDGA, oh, but they were all at a conference that was scheduled that same weekend. They are really good with the girls, too. ;) :rolleyes: ;)

Whatever.

So, what is the benefit of being an NT vs a regular A-tier? Is it just to get more of the travelling Pro's to come?

isn't there a USDGC qualifier attached?

What benefits does a club receive from hosting an NT?

Trust me, I know the answer already, just want to see the respones.


To Jerry: if you're really concerned about not having an NT near by for the USDGC spots, then host an NT, you're guaranteed a spot.:cool:

Yes, and that requirement wasn't given any time to be put in. EX: We need you guys to install 36 permanment tee boxes before April..........not like have them within a two year period. Like a business plan, imagine.

The thought that a long standing event would not be given time to get that accomplished illustrated the lack of flexibility from decision makers. And we all know how good things went this past year.

What about the Women's Nationals this year, A major without anyone from PDGA, oh, but they were all at a conference that was scheduled that same weekend. They are really good with the girls, too.

Either you had permanent tees or not. That was several years ago now. Installing permanent tees would be good for local play and the bid could have been delayed until that happened. Has it happened? The decision makers have been more than flexible over the years in comparison to the original goals of the NT to the detriment of much consistency in the formats going from venue to venue.

PDGA had experienced marshals at the USWDGC who actually ran the USWDGC for several years. I was sent by the PDGA several months in advance to review courses, schedule and assist with planning. Checked all the courses and worked with John and Chris to fine tune the format and settle on the layouts, for example, reducing the proposed five courses to three so it was more manageable for the players to practice. I don't think players are aware how much the PDGA helps in advance where needed to assist locals running big events.

Either you had permanent tees or not. That was several years ago now. Installing permanent tees would be good for local play and the bid could have been delayed until that happened. Has it happened? The decision makers have been more than flexible over the years in comparison to the original goals of the NT to the detriment of much consistency in the formats going from venue to venue.

PDGA had experienced marshals at the USWDGC who actually ran the USWDGC for several years. I was sent by the PDGA several months in advance to review courses, schedule and assist with planning. Checked all the courses and worked with John and Chris to fine tune the format and settle on the layouts, for example, reducing the proposed five courses to three so it was more manageable for the players to practice. I don't think players are aware how much the PDGA helps in advance where needed to assist locals running big events.

So, at Major events for men, marshall are supposed to cover everything too. or just at "women's only" events? It just appears, even if it is just an appearance that women are NOT important to you guys.

I'm old and have learned that actions speak volumes. And you guys dropped the ball for the girls, and that is just my opinion. I'm sure none of that would have EVER happened to the guys. Just the way it appears.

The PDGA provides the resources as needed and/or requested for the larger events without any bias toward gender or age. US Masters only has one marshal and is bigger than the USWDGC. The gender and age major events have been smaller and need fewer resources. That's simply good management and not a bias. I didn't sense that Board member, Juliana, felt the resources supplied to the USWDGC were inadequate or that more of the PDGA budget should have been expended than was already being done for that event. I doubt that any more would have been done if the Summit meeting didn't happen to be that weekend.

this just seems to make about as much sense as complaining to the PDGA that you don't have a championship level course in your town.

That is not accurate. The burden to make sure there is a large NT style event in an area of the country with one of the largest demographics of disc golfers is on the PDGA.

Let's take NASCAR as an example. NASCAR realized that they needed events in California because there is a huge demographic there. They realized this is a way to gain exposure, increase market share, and serve the fans (of which there is a substantial number) in that region. Of course NASCAR needs event organizers is Cali to step up and run these events, but you can be dam sure that if there wasn�t organizers willing to do this, NASCAR would setup someway to make it happen. They do this by building relationships with these organizers and making sure they have organizers from these regions bidding for events. Even if their bids aren�t the best, they still get events because it is in the best interest of NASCAR to have events in this region.

Obviously the PDGA isn�t NASCAR but the principles apply. I don�t want to hear excuses about resources. Just make it happen. I don�t have to have the solution to come on here and present a problem.

As the official governing body of disc golf, the burden to make sure there is a large NT style event in an area of the country with one of the largest demographics of disc golfers is on the PDGA. The burden isn�t on me as a player. The burden isn�t solely on TDs. The burden is mostly with the PDGA as the governing body and guiding force in disc golf.

Having NTs in each region of the US (Northwest, Southwest, South, Upper Midwest, Southeast, and Northeast) should be a requirement. This is one of the best ways to grow the sport and one of the best ways to support the paying member base. If this isn�t part of the PDGA�s mission then it should be.

It really isn�t that hard to do. Expand the time frame the National Tour goes by to a longer season. Relax the requirements for a NT to allow more tourneys to qualify. Maybe go to 15 or 20 events on the National Tour. Push some PDGA money to those events on NT so they can meet the requirements (i.e. a few A tiers become NTs). I�d rather see money going there than to some property in GA anyway. Then you�d have a real NT with events in each region. The big events are already big and garner a lot of respect. Adding more NTs won�t diminish these events but will increase the prestige of the other events. Its time to start thinking long term here.

HEY, PDGA---

Please don't use our resources to create an NT in a place that hasn't offered to host one.



I'll bet you don't.

*

As a PDGA member, you are eligible to organize and submit a bid for an NT, yourself.
Again, burden isn't on me as a player. Burden is on the PDGA as the governing body of disc golf.

Just curious Jerry,

But why do you feel it's the PDGA's job to influence NT events? They set up the standards - and those clubs that feel they can or want to try and meet them - do so. So whether or not you want to hear it - the sanctioning level of any and all PDGA events from XC to NT is determined by the TD submitting for sanctioning - period.

I was part of the inaugural NT in 2003 - where I helped run an NT event at Seneca Creek in Gaithersburg, MD - where we raised over $4500 to add to the purse. Our experience with a certain # of traveling players was so bad that we went from NT in '03 to B tier in '04 because we were not interested in catering to the unappreciative, self entitled attitudes that we encountered.

The NT events that I have attended since have not been without a certain amount of that. So I applaud those clubs and TD's who are willing to do the work required to put on such an event. Bottom line - it's not on the PDGA to make a bid and come run the event.

Part of the problem. Clubs should want to run NTs because it benefits them. If that isn't the case the PDGA isn't doing its job.

To Jerry: if you're really concerned about not having an NT near by for the USDGC spots, then host an NT, you're guaranteed a spot.:cool:

Burden isn't on me as a player. Burden is on the governing body. If they can't get event in each region then they aer not doing their job.

you couldn't be more wrong...

The burden is on you, your local club, and anyone else interested in hosting an NT.

Raise the $$$, get your SADC group to submit a bid, and if the PDGA rejects it, then post your rant for debate.

true that.

Same 'ole entitlement.

"Those volunteers aren't doing enough for ME."

"The PDGA should waive it's magic wand and MAKE IT HAPPEN."

Hey, the PDGA is "us", not "they".

Other places stepped up locally if they wanted an NT. Why shouldn't Texas?

Part of the burden is on the organizer, most of the burden is on the PDGA. Its in everyone's best interested to have events in all regions.

Also I am just a player / spectactor not a NT TD. I have no desire to run an event like that. I just want to attend / play. There is nothing wrong with that as a paying consumer.

10,000 members, 5 volunteer for board service, 9,995 complain about those 5.

Let's see, let's say there are at least 20 pros in TX who think they might qualify for USDGC that live on average just 200 miles from a TX site. They have to drive on average 1000 miles to a qualifier. That's 1600 extra miles roundtrip. At 20mpg and $2.50 gal, that's $200 extra per player to go to a longer range event plus maybe $50 for an extra night lodging compared with a TX venue. Even more if they fly and need a rental car. That's at least $5000 extra they are paying which just happens to be the amount of local added cash needed as a minimum to host an NT. So, if these 20 players ponied up the money to get a closer NT, that would be a huge start on sponsorship which usually is one of the tough things for a bidder to raise.

Also I am just a player / spectactor not a NT TD. I have no desire to run an event like that. I just want to attend / play. There is nothing wrong with that as a paying consumer.

You're not a paying consumer. You a member.

Nothing wrong with just being a player, except complaining about the volunteers who do all the work.

Let's see, let's say there are at least 20 pros in TX who think they might qualify for USDGC that live on average just 200 miles from a TX site. They have to drive on average 1000 miles to a qualifier. That's 1600 extra miles roundtrip. At 20mpg and $2.50 gal, that's $200 extra per player to go to a longer range event plus maybe $50 for an extra night lodging compared with a TX venue. Even more if they fly and need a rental car. That's at least $5000 extra they are paying which just happens to be the amount of local added cash needed as a minimum to host an NT. So, if these 20 players ponied up the money to get a closer NT, that would be a huge start on sponsorship which usually is one of the tough things for a bidder to raise.

Its also about making sure players and spectactors and casual fans in the area get a chance to see the best in the work travel to their area to take on their coruses.

It is in disc golf's, the PDGA's, and everyone's best interest for NT events to be in every region of the coutnry. Nobody can dispute that. Sure maybe some TDs in the area need to step up. Maybe not, i'm not in the large TD scence nor do I want to be so I don't know the details of that. I have a full time job and am busy enuogh with that, my family, and with my my local clubs. All I know is that having NT events in every region is in all our best interests. The 2010 schedule has events in each region but the South. I don't have all the answers or any answers for that matter. I am just upset that as a consumer, a player, a spectator (not as a TD) I don't get a chance to have a NT within 1000 of my home. Nobody can dispute that the South has a huge disc golf demographic and getting NTs in this area will benfit all of us.

I should have realized that posting anything on the messageboard is a waste of time because on here, you can't please everyone (or anyone for that matter). I know I am not alone. From my perspective there is a substantial undercurrent in the south that the PDGA isn't doing enough here to warrent the annual membership fee and the tournament fees.

I guess I'll just leave it at that. I won't be changing any of your opinions on here and unless someone posts some ideas instaead of excuses and "you need to step up and volunteer to do it" they won't be changing my opinion as a consumer, player, spectator so I'll just leave it at that.

You're not a paying consumer. You a member.

Nothing wrong with just being a player, except complaining about the volunteers who do all the work.

I am a consumer. Definition of a consumer is, "a person who uses goods or services in exchange for a fee." I pay the PDGA so that I can be a member and receive the services offered by the PDGA.

When I pay money to an organization I have a right to complain when I don't feel ther services rendered are up to my level of expectations.

I was TD for 3 tournaments and dozens of other local disc golf events in San Antonio and put in hundreds if not thousands of hours of work annually towards advancing the sport locally. All for the love of the game. If someone came to me and said they where unsatisfied with one of my tourneys or how we where running the local club I'd listen, evalute if its a valid concern, and address the issue if it is valid. At the very least I'd address the issue with the indivudal or group so they know I understand their concerns and am taking it into consideration. I wouldn't immediately get defensive, take the complaint as a personal attack, and not even engage their concerns as valid.

I think it comes down to what you said

You have no desire to run an event like that. Perhaps the same attitude is going around the Texas area.

I'm so sick of people complaining about the PDGA on this board. I have been a paying member for well over 10 years and it has been well worth it. And after 15+ years of playing this sport, I'm pretty impressed with what the PDGA has been able to accomplish. I will be a member till the day I die.

instead of complaining on the message board for the world to see, why don't you call the PDGA or your State coordinator and talk to them.

I think it comes down to what you said

Perhaps the same attitude is going around the Texas area.

Not true, at least from what I've heard


instead of complaining on the message board for the world to see, why don't you call the PDGA or your State coordinator and talk to them.

Done and done, but thought maybe I could get some ideas on how to address the issue. I'll admit my subject line probably didn't help the discussion and I'd change that if I could.

It is in disc golf's, the PDGA's, and everyone's best interest for NT events to be in every region of the country. Nobody can dispute that.
I believe most members dispute that. The sport has grown and will continue to grow more due to grass roots efforts than theoretically high profile events. If they were in the best interest of the sport, people who volunteer would be lining up to host them. In fact, Texas has demonstrated the sport can have huge participation and the most courses without a recent NT. :rolleyes:

However, most players are doing what they can, even if it's just cheering, to get more courses in the ground. That's where the real effective effort lies along with EDGE programs. NTs are simply icing for the top pros and not much more for the sport since few players have demonstrated much interest in spectating let alone paying for it.

How 'bout this, then.

The PDGA is a member organization serving a wide range of interests. (Too wide, in some members' opinions). They are trying to do many things with limited resources. Because members have different ideas of where they want disc golf to go and how best to get there, everything the PDGA does is bound to strike some members as wrongheaded.

The NT is just one of the PDGA's projects. Some members---well, at least this one---would be just as happy if the NT were dropped entirely. The resources they've decided to put towards it wouldn't come close to running a dozen or so events. The only option is to have tournaments run by locals, to NT standards. They have little leverage or clout to force or encourage anyone to do so.

Some gung-ho volunteers in various parts of the country have stepped up to the challenge to host an NT. Lord knows why. If no one in or near Texas has also done so, should the PDGA? If they do, wouldn't all those other NT TDs want to the PDGA to step in and do their work for them in the future?

I don't see what else, specifically, the PDGA could do or should do for Texas to have an NT. Texas can do what other places have done, or choose not to.

Are there specific actions you think they should do? Not just "make it happen", but should they send the money to cover it? Send a staff to run it? How do they, as organizers, get someone local to do it who hasn't already done so?

I believe most members dispute that. The sport has grown and will continue to grow more due to grass roots efforts than theoretically high profile events. If they were in the best interest of the sport, people who volunteer would be lining up to host them. In fact, Texas has demonstrated the sport can have huge participation and the most courses without a recent NT. :rolleyes:

However, most players are doing what they can, even if it's just cheering, to get more courses in the ground. That's where the real effective effort lies along with EDGE programs. NTs are simply icing for the top pros and not much more for the sport since few players have demonstrated much interest in spectating let alone paying for it.

In my opinion that is a too much of a short term view. People can say playing football games in Mexico and Europe is a bad idea too, but the NFL believes that is in the best long term interest of the sport to grow in those areas.

Well said David. I got to play with your son last year in Orlando. He is a great kid with a great attitude. Hope to play Stoney Hill this year on my way to Florida for the winter.

I don't see what else, specifically, the PDGA could do or should do for Texas to have an NT. Texas can do what other places have done, or choose not to.

Are there specific actions you think they should do? Not just "make it happen", but should they send the money to cover it? Send a staff to run it? How do they, as organizers, get someone local to do it who hasn't already done so?


First let's progress this past a Texas issue. I'd like to think of it as a regional issue. Would people be up in arms in there wasn't a NT event in the Mid Atlantic or California regions? I think so. I know I would think that isn't a good idea. Those are great regions for disc golf a deserve NTs.

I think the PDGA should be in the business of fostering relationships with the area clubs and working with state coordinators in each region to make sure they get bids from those areas. If the aren't getting bids they should actively engage the clubs and state coordinators in those areas to find out why and address the concerns. To date I haven't seen any proactive action on either the state coordinator or PDGA's part to address that. As a Board Member for one local club I know the PDGA hasn't contact us, nor has a state coordinator contact us about working with us to build better and larger tourneys. It�s the other way around. I have to contact them and to get events scheduled and since there are so many tourneys even that is a struggle.

Maybe the NT should be expanded to like 21 events, with a min of 2 in each region. With 7 regions you�ve got 14 events looked it with 7 to sprinkle as seen fit. Expand the schedule to allow for NTs during the winter months in the south when the weather is the best of disc golf. I�ve attached a regional map as an example of how it can be broken out.

Since Texas has been singled out in this thread, I would like to throw in my $00.025 on this. Arlington's VPO is the longest running "A" tier in the state and this year we expect to be adding $4-5000 to the purse with the Open winner taking home about $2000 if possible. So stepping up to NT status wouldn't be too hard for us to do and we have considered putting in a bid for it. I'm not very sure that it would be of any benefit to us to commit to that much responsibility when our event is as successful as it has been at this level. Jerry is an up and coming leader here in Tx. and works very hard each year on his own event, and like he said he's just a player. We're all disc dogs when it comes down to it, and with the critisism and pressure being applied to all who try to help, it just seems to push people away instead of recruit them.

P.S.
There have been some very very nice additions to Metroplex disc golf courses in the past year, and I would like to see enough support here in the area to hold a Worlds here.
The biggest problem with that is the August time period being the hottest time of the year and it would drain all the players to play two rounds a day for a week.

Why isn't there a NT in EVERY state? Once a month? Maybe the PDGA could provide ALL of the prize money, as well as promotions. And while we're at it, how about having the PDGA come to each and every NT course to do ALL of the course maintainence? Wouldn't it be great if we never had to raise any money for our NT events. Even better if we didn't have to bust our humps getting our courses looking/playing great for tournies, just to have some player complain about a root in the fairway "that should never be there!" I know we are never going to change your mind, but it would be nice if you actually tried to find out if ANYONE in Texas applied for a NT and was turned down. If they were, your complaints would have some merit.

Why isn't there a NT in EVERY state? Once a month? Maybe the PDGA could provide ALL of the prize money, as well as promotions. And while we're at it, how about having the PDGA come to each and every NT course to do ALL of the course maintainence? Wouldn't it be great if we never had to raise any money for our NT events. Even better if we didn't have to bust our humps getting our courses looking/playing great for tournies, just to have some player complain about a root in the fairway "that should never be there!"
That isn't constructive and isn't adding anything to the discussion.

There have been some very very nice additions to Metroplex disc golf courses in the past year, and I would like to see enough support here in the area to hold a Worlds here.
The biggest problem with that is the August time period being the hottest time of the year and it would drain all the players to play two rounds a day for a week.

Now we are getting way of on a tangent but I agree. The only issue is you'd have to release the Jr. portion to other venue as I think due to school that would have to be during the summer months. Other than that I am on board with a DFW Worlds and am willing to help make that a reality.

In fairness---

I started mentioning Texas just because it was shorter than describing that whole region.

Jerry did suggest, in his first post, lengthening the NT schedule. Wouldn't cost much, and might help somewhere if scheduling is an issue to some locale.

I don't see how the PDGA can get more NTs just by communicating better. At this point, the only thing I can imagine them doing is lowering the standards, especially the cash-added requirement. Whether that's the way to go or not, I leave to the folks who care about the NT.

Someone can correct me, but I think originally the NT had a few more events, and was conceived as a "tour". A 3-or-4 event swing through the west, with later swings through the midwest, southeast, etc. So touring players could play a string of events more easily. But I think squabbling over tour dates proved that unworkable. (If my recall is faulty, sorry).

*

P.S. to Chris: That was my nephew, not my son. We're a big disc golf family. Hope you make it to Stoney Hill.

You want more NTs, maybe not a bad thing, but how do you thing it will happen? Do you really believe the PDGA has the money/resources to run more NTs? Maybe if more TDs/clubs would step up to run NTs.... oh wait, that's out problem now- that you can't seem to understand. I'm sure many people would love to have more NT- I think it would be great. But you want them and haven't provided any ideas for it to happen, other than the PDGA should encourage TDs to run more. I think you started this thread to complain, found out your complaint really has nothing to do with the PDGA and everything to do with TDs not wanting to run NTs- even very sucessful a-tiers in Texas.

Now we are getting way of on a tangent but I agree. The only issue is you'd have to release the Jr. portion to other venue as I think due to school that would have to be during the summer months. Other than that I am on board with a DFW Worlds and am willing to help make that a reality.

It is potentially hot anywhere in the United States, let's move it to the Southern Hemisphere as to insure cooler weather. LOL :D

We managed Pro Worlds in August 2002 and no one died of heat stroke.

Jerry,
As an A Tier TD - I was contacted via mass email by the PDGA seeking my willingness to run another similar tiered event next year - and was given the opportunity at that time to show interest in the NT if I so desired. I am certain that other TD's who run A Tier and higher events received the same email. I see this as the PDGA acting to schedule the highest tier events first - and early enough to fill in the remaining tiered events to minimize conflicts. I also see it as a fairly reasonable example of reaching out to TD's around the country who have already shown an interest in running these types of events - to do so again.

Your notion of expanding the NT and relaxing the standards I think is moving in an already proven to be unsuccessful direction. The NT has been pared down from it's original volume of events precisely because there weren't enough willing venues to act as hosts. The NT as intended by the ORG is obviously to feature the highest quality venues and highest possible purses. At this point - several NT's barely exceed the purses of othe well run A Tiers. So would you have the ORG relax the requirements and abandon the notion that NT events are supposed to be a cut above the rest?

While I don't disagree with the sentiment that it would be great to have all regions represented on the NT - if their aren't willing hosts ready to step up - what realistic steps should/could the PDGA take? I don't think communications are the problem - if TX TD's were interested in running such an event - all the info they need to know and understand the event requirements are right here on this website.

Having run events and been a PDGA member for over 20 years - I know and understand the desire to "just be a player". I also know and understand well that the PDGA functions at the tournament level through almost exclusively local volunteer efforts - with VERY few exceptions. If you feel that your region is under-represented on the Major/NT level - talking to the folks who are involved with organizing events IN YOUR REGION would seem to me to be the most productive approach.

Our experience with a certain # of traveling players was so bad that we went from NT in '03 to B tier in '04 because we were not interested in catering to the unappreciative, self entitled attitudes that we encountered.

The NT events that I have attended since have not been without a certain amount of that. So I applaud those clubs and TD's who are willing to do the work required to put on such an event. Bottom line - it's not on the PDGA to make a bid and come run the event.


True this. Des Moines won't be hosting any NT's in the near future. And trust me Dave Feldberg, it isn't because you whined to me during a bad hole about what a terrible decision it was to have an NT on 5 courses, and that you're on the NT committee and would make sure it NEVER happened again. It's because clubs recieve absolutely no benefit from running this, only to have our "heros" come and tear it down when they miss a 22 foot putt. Now I could care less if I never saw most of those guys ever again. They're completely out of touch with how influential they are, and how people do look up to them. Then they come to your hometown and act like a bunch of jackasses.

Oh, and we had a PDGA marshall there that instructed a WOMAN to play a hole incorrectly at Pickard, didn't we Chuck? What a great help that was. [/sarc]

About the only thing I agree with Jerry on is that there should be incentive for clubs to run these. Currently there is none, and our club can come up with a whole laundry list as to why NOT to run one.

I'm from Texas, and I don't care one bit about having an NT. For that matter, I could care less if a tourney is PDGA sanctioned. Most tourneys around here are sanctioned simply cause ams need points, therefore they care and the tourney gets sanctioned.

No USDGC qualifier in Texas reflects poorly on the USDGC imo, but that isn't a PDGA issue.

That being said, I think a lot of people too easily dismiss Scott's core argument. If you view the PDGA as an entity with its own wants and desires, it is natural to conclude (maybe even assume) that the PDGA would want to increase its presence, build its brand, or simply justify its existence. If that is your PDGA view, it makes a lot of sense that the PDGA would want to strut its stuff and impress as many people as it can.

That being said, I don't expect, nor would I approve the PDGA spending resources to subsidize a Texas NT. I simply think the argument that there is no burden on the PDGA is short-sighted and actually pretty dismissive of the potential of the PDGA.

So, at Major events for men, marshall are supposed to cover everything too. or just at "women's only" events? It just appears, even if it is just an appearance that women are NOT important to you guys.

I'm old and have learned that actions speak volumes. And you guys dropped the ball for the girls, and that is just my opinion. I'm sure none of that would have EVER happened to the guys. Just the way it appears.

I've never attended a tourney that catered only to guys.

That's right. He did say his Uncle was building the best disc golf course in the world.

I avoid NT's at all costs because I know my money is going to a select few guys. Give me B-tiers with big payouts any day.

This is a man's world, and nothing is going to change that.

Oh, and we had a PDGA marshal there that instructed a WOMAN to play a hole incorrectly at Pickard, didn't we Chuck? What a great help that was.
Yes. I admitted the mistake as soon as it was discovered and had it corrected according to the rules so she was the only one (we know of) who did not get penalized. It's a good thing the problem surfaced so that all of those who misplayed it would get scores adjusted. Of course, that might not have happened if the club had a permanent or temporary sign by the tee indicating to play the short tee drop zone if you go OB off the tee. The many players who DID play it incorrectly might have avoided taking a 2-throw penalty and there wouldn't be suspicions that some didn't fess up and get their penalty.

In my opinion that is a too much of a short term view. People can say playing football games in Mexico and Europe is a bad idea too, but the NFL believes that is in the best long term interest of the sport to grow in those areas.
They have a viable sponsorship model to finance the big payouts and salaries in their sport. The sport of disc golf does not.

Jerry - Line up big time exposure for the events, and the sponsors will come running, just like the NFL's out of the US events and NASCAR's California events. They don't have the issues we have as a sport with minimal exposure at present - it nullifies your argument. Sure, they're thinking long term and going outside of their present regions for events.... however they're also raking in big time advertising dollars as a result of being nationally televised and having massive exposure on ESPN, Yahoo! Sports, etc. The NFL and NASCAR aren't putting boatloads of money out of their own pockets and risking their capital to do what they're doing. They're actually coming out with a profit as a result of all the money they rake in as established sports with fanbases that tune in on a weekly basis to their events.

As for expanding the NT out and making it 21 events - Where's the exclusivity in that? The NT is to be the highest tier of events making it a massive glob of events that occur on a practically semi-weekly basis would make it little more than what the supertour tier of events are. At most, if we expanded it, I'd like to see it as 12 events over 9 months instead of the 9 events over 6 months. And then some Texas TDs would have to step up and put in some bids for some events - probably one at the beginning and one at the end of the season (when weather is cooler).

But as for having the PDGA throwing cash at them? Bad idea. Once you do it for one event, you have to do it for more. It sets a poor precedent and would quickly bankrupt the organization. I know the PDGA is raking in some decent revenue from sanctioning costs and memberships. But it also pays salary for people to work in the offices (most of whom could be making much more than what they are), for officials to attend national tour events, etc. Its not like the org is awash in money to spend.

I was TD for 3 tournaments and dozens of other local disc golf events in San Antonio and put in hundreds if not thousands of hours of work annually towards advancing the sport locally.
the average working stiff doesn't put in thousands of hours in a year at their actual job... unless you're somehow putting in 40hrs a week @ the course i'd imagine it's closer to hundreds.

If someone came to me and said they where unsatisfied with one of my tourneys or how we where running the local club I'd listen, evalute if its a valid concern, and address the issue if it is valid. At the very least I'd address the issue with the indivudal or group so they know I understand their concerns and am taking it into consideration. I wouldn't immediately get defensive, take the complaint as a personal attack, and not even engage their concerns as valid.
has anyone come to the local clubs asking about the teepads at the courses that evidently aren't NT worthy because of the teepads? maybe you could bring up the possibility of hosting an NT with your local club? I know around here the club is what gets things accomplished... some areas its a one man show.

volunteers... What a nice word. Used out of context on this message board over and over and over again.

everyone wants more NTs, more big events but is anyone wondering why the NT schedule seems to keep getting smaller? Some places bid for a NT, have that bid accepted without having the facilities to host a top level event- for example the Green Country Open last year used 2 courses were they had just finished the teepads and tee signs THE WEEK OF THE TOURNAMENT!

Out of the 9 NT tournaments net year 3, maybe 4 stand out as a step above the rest in terms of overall player experience, courses, payout, staff. Not that the others are not good events, but they are not on the level of the top few. Adding more decent A tiers to the NT schedule does nothing but harm to the NT. Its like when a club really wants to run a A tier, so they sanction their trny as one, but don't do anywhere near enough prep and end up running a A tier with poor courses, poor payout...and obviously get a lot of complaints because of this. The same would happen if there was a push to expand the NT, you'd have NT tournaments paying out 1k for 1st place with 50+ open players(this happened last year!)


People who can't stand touring pros complaining at their events should take a trip to Vibram, or the Beaver State Fling and see why you hear very little to no negative comments from any players at those events, and why they fill in a day or two while some A tier or NT tournaments never reach their cap of players.

If I may say something here... I know JC. He's a great ambassador to the SPORT of disc golf. He has run some very smooth and fun local events and has put in work to get people playing. His commitment to our local club is without question.

I feel he has a point on the fact that the NT schedule is within a certain timeframe. Why not play the southern states in the winter months and the northern states in the summer? Disc golf is a year round sport... no reason that come the winter, major events need to stop. My opinion....

As the official governing body of disc golf, the burden to make sure there is a large NT style event in an area of the country with one of the largest demographics of disc golfers is on the PDGA. The burden isn�t on me as a player. The burden isn�t solely on TDs. The burden is mostly with the PDGA as the governing body and guiding force in disc golf.

Having NTs in each region of the US (Northwest, Southwest, South, Upper Midwest, Southeast, and Northeast) should be a requirement. This is one of the best ways to grow the sport and one of the best ways to support the paying member base. If this isn�t part of the PDGA�s mission then it should be.

It really isn�t that hard to do. Expand the time frame the National Tour goes by to a longer season. Relax the requirements for a NT to allow more tourneys to qualify. Maybe go to 15 or 20 events on the National Tour. Push some PDGA money to those events on NT so they can meet the requirements (i.e. a few A tiers become NTs). I�d rather see money going there than to some property in GA anyway. Then you�d have a real NT with events in each region. The big events are already big and garner a lot of respect. Adding more NTs won�t diminish these events but will increase the prestige of the other events. Its time to start thinking long term here.

Jerry, you have a lot of ideas and are clearly motivated and have the best interests of the sport (let's grow this thing!) in mind. I would recommend you run for the PDGA Board and/or State Coordinator, state your positions and do your best to influence the direction of the PDGA. The more ideas, the better.

everyone wants more NTs, more big events but is anyone wondering why the NT schedule seems to keep getting smaller? Some places bid for a NT, have that bid accepted without having the facilities to host a top level event- for example the Green Country Open last year used 2 courses were they had just finished the teepads and tee signs THE WEEK OF THE TOURNAMENT!

Out of the 9 NT tournaments net year 3, maybe 4 stand out as a step above the rest in terms of overall player experience, courses, payout, staff. Not that the others are not good events, but they are not on the level of the top few. Adding more decent A tiers to the NT schedule does nothing but harm to the NT. Its like when a club really wants to run a A tier, so they sanction their trny as one, but don't do anywhere near enough prep and end up running a A tier with poor courses, poor payout...and obviously get a lot of complaints because of this. The same would happen if there was a push to expand the NT, you'd have NT tournaments paying out 1k for 1st place with 50+ open players(this happened last year!)


People who can't stand touring pros complaining at their events should take a trip to Vibram, or the Beaver State Fling and see why you hear very little to no negative comments from any players at those events, and why they fill in a day or two while some A tier or NT tournaments never reach their cap of players.

I would have to agree with Luke. The local club in Corpus Christi hosted an A-tier in October 2008. There really is no reason they (we at the time) should have. The courses used do not warrant it.

However if the courses across the bay are given a couple of years I think an A-Tier or NT would be something I would be willing to drop an entry fee on as a contribution to pay out and volunteer at to watch some touring pros play. Ingleside Gold would be a really fun course to watch on.

[QUOTE=james_mccaine;1398215]

No USDGC qualifier in Texas reflects poorly on the USDGC imoQUOTE]

What has Texas ever done for disc golf? (j/k!)

Jerry, you have a lot of ideas and are clearly motivated and have the best interests of the sport (let's grow this thing!) in mind. I would recommend you run for the PDGA Board and/or State Coordinator, state your positions and do your best to influence the direction of the PDGA. The more ideas, the better.


That's a likely possiblity in the future. Got to get the local club in a better position first. My main focus is getting at least 1 more championship caliber course in San Antonio.

the average working stiff doesn't put in thousands of hours in a year at their actual job... unless you're somehow putting in 40hrs a week @ the course i'd imagine it's closer to hundreds.
OK, that's probably an exageration, but just barely. It wouldn't be a stretch to say I put in 10 - 20 hours a week in discgolf related activities on average. 20 hours a week = 1000 hours a year. If you are not working 1000 hours at your job you are not a full time worker. I also have the luxury of being able to multi-task and work / complete DG activites at the same time.


has anyone come to the local clubs asking about the teepads at the courses that evidently aren't NT worthy because of the teepads? maybe you could bring up the possibility of hosting an NT with your local club? I know around here the club is what gets things accomplished... some areas its a one man show.

Not applicable in this area. All of the courses in SA metro area have concrete tee pads. The area in question in that discussion point was Houston I believe. They may or may not have gotten that done as that was like 2 or 3 years ago but they also have like 20 - 30 courses in Houston. San Antonio Metro only has 5 1/2 courses.

That's a likely possiblity in the future. Got to get the local club in a better position first. My main focus is getting at least 1 more championship caliber course in San Antonio.

Has a nice ring,.. Texas State Coordinator Jerry Chesterson.

As the TD of the Veterans Park Open, I did in fact inquire about the possibility of moving the VPO to NT status. However, I was met with some unwillingness to extend the NT schedule beyond the end of August.

I have no plans of moving the VPO out of late October/early November, as this is the prime weather season for golf here. So we will just continue with our "little" A-tier and add more cash and have higher payout than a large portion of NT events.

Let's see, let's say there are at least 20 pros in TX who think they might qualify for USDGC that live on average just 200 miles from a TX site. They have to drive on average 1000 miles to a qualifier. That's 1600 extra miles roundtrip. At 20mpg and $2.50 gal, that's $200 extra per player to go to a longer range event plus maybe $50 for an extra night lodging compared with a TX venue. Even more if they fly and need a rental car. That's at least $5000 extra they are paying which just happens to be the amount of local added cash needed as a minimum to host an NT. So, if these 20 players ponied up the money to get a closer NT, that would be a huge start on sponsorship which usually is one of the tough things for a bidder to raise.Some of them will car pool, but still, I thought this quote was insightful enough to bear repeating.

Most sponsorship in disc golf is in-house money. Texas just needs to get its house in order.

Suppose a bunch of clubs in Texas were to agree to each hold one NT fundraising tournament, with the agreement that the club that raised the most money could host it [or turn down hosting it!] and all the other clubs would support it with their NT fundraising tournament money? You can do PDGA payouts at a B/C for 60 ams paying $40 each and easily make $1000. If five clubs were to compete at this, you could easily raise $7500.

Somebody e-mail this idea to your state coordinator.

Some of them will car pool, but still, I thought this quote was insightful enough to bear repeating.

Most sponsorship in disc golf is in-house money. Texas just needs to get its house in order.

Suppose a bunch of clubs in Texas were to agree to each hold one NT fundraising tournament, with the agreement that the club that raised the most money could host it [or turn down hosting it!] and all the other clubs would support it with their NT fundraising tournament money? You can do PDGA payouts at a B/C for 60 ams paying $40 each and easily make $1000. If five clubs were to compete at this, you could easily raise $7500.

Somebody e-mail this idea to your state coordinator.

This idea has been tossed around before, but it is difficult to get agreement between two clubs, much less five or more.

Let's see, let's say there are at least 20 pros in TX who think they might qualify for USDGC that live on average just 200 miles from a TX site. They have to drive on average 1000 miles to a qualifier. That's 1600 extra miles roundtrip. At 20mpg and $2.50 gal, that's $200 extra per player to go to a longer range event plus maybe $50 for an extra night lodging compared with a TX venue. Even more if they fly and need a rental car. That's at least $5000 extra they are paying which just happens to be the amount of local added cash needed as a minimum to host an NT. So, if these 20 players ponied up the money to get a closer NT, that would be a huge start on sponsorship which usually is one of the tough things for a bidder to raise.

i like that, im a texas open player and i would do that. great idea. I agree with both of you, PDGA should and could do more to help Texas run an NT. And they could do more to promote NT's in the north, south, east and West be more diverse. Texas is a huge state with a ton of potential and I really want NT s in Texas.

Some of them will car pool, but still, I thought this quote was insightful enough to bear repeating.

Most sponsorship in disc golf is in-house money. Texas just needs to get its house in order.

Suppose a bunch of clubs in Texas were to agree to each hold one NT fundraising tournament, with the agreement that the club that raised the most money could host it [or turn down hosting it!] and all the other clubs would support it with their NT fundraising tournament money? You can do PDGA payouts at a B/C for 60 ams paying $40 each and easily make $1000. If five clubs were to compete at this, you could easily raise $7500.

Somebody e-mail this idea to your state coordinator.

EXCACTLY, this is the point.

Ok to all you passionate GUYS, lets do this. My name is Keith #21803. I live in Texas, i know TD's in hou, austin, tyler and Dallas. Me and Jeremy with Dynamic Disc are fully on board with bringing an NT to Texas. Dynamic Disc is on board to do what it takes. I bring my communication skills and i hope i can coordinate all the major cities to step up and come together. I think our #1 problem in Texas is we are to big. All big areas (aus,tyler,dallas,hou) are there own thing. If we can all come together and run events with 2, 3, 4 dollars all going into OUR Texas NT event I think we can run it. Texas will be a great NT. me and Jeremy thought about Tylers Piney Woods A tier as a good NT, but the PDGA will have to relax dates and give us more opp to run an NT in other months. I am open for any and all Ideas. Jeremy Dynamic Disc and I will help any city and TD who wants to step up and Run an NT event. Please I think Texas NT can become one of the Premeir Events. Texas and the South Needs it.
keith
[email protected]
#21803

This idea has been tossed around before, but it is difficult to get agreement between two clubs, much less five or more.

yes this is the hardest thing about Texas we are so big, its hard for TDs to work together, and some dont seem to want to work together. Is there a way we can make it profitable and beneficial for multiple TD's to want to work together in Texas for the NT. we can also get Oklahoma involved.....they are some cool guys. Im good at talking and networking guys together.

As the TD of the Veterans Park Open, I did in fact inquire about the possibility of moving the VPO to NT status. However, I was met with some unwillingness to extend the NT schedule beyond the end of August.

I have no plans of moving the VPO out of late October/early November, as this is the prime weather season for golf here. So we will just continue with our "little" A-tier and add more cash and have higher payout than a large portion of NT events.

well Jeremy and Dynamic disc will help you make VPO and NT and can we first atleast make VPO a qualifier event for USDGC??? and let me know if theres any thing me (keith) and jeremy with Dynamic disc can do to make VPO an NT

well Jeremy and Dynamic disc will help you make VPO and NT and can we first atleast make VPO a qualifier event for USDGC??? and let me know if theres any thing me (keith) and jeremy with Dynamic disc can do to make VPO an NT

The biggest obstacle for that is that the VPO is usually 3-4 weeks after USDGC, so it would only be worthwhile for that objective if the PDGA would allow qualifying for the following year, which does not seem to make much sense.

The biggest obstacle for that is that the VPO is usually 3-4 weeks after USDGC, so it would only be worthwhile for that objective if the PDGA would allow qualifying for the following year, which does not seem to make much sense.

ok True...but if it is made a Nt if would have to move anyways, April is a great month for an NT could and would VPO move to aril to become Texas NT premeir event.

well piney wood in tyler is trying to become a qualifier. and thats after the event also. so i emailed USDGC asking about VPO and Piney woods, if they will allow for both to be a qualifier it would make sense. For it to count for next year. because thats all we have in Texas.

man would love to see NT in Texas.

man would love to see NT in Texas.

Good luck to Texas!

VPO + USDGC Qualifier = smile!

VPO + USDGC Qualifier = smile!

I agree....that would be great

seems like the HOTT A-tier in Wimberly would be a good option for an NT also, they have 2 course and one temp course right?

For the VPO it takes us all year to raise the money for it, if we moved it up to April we would only have half of the money or less, also the next closest course isnt really all that close, and we are not sure the city would be willing to let us set up a temp course.

VPO + USDGC Qualifier = smile!

so do you have to be an NT event to be a USDGC Qualifier?

No. Becoming a USDGC qualifier is a process overseen by Innova separate from becoming an NT overseen by the PDGA. But all NTs are automatically qualifiers.

No. Becoming a USDGC qualifier is a process overseen by Innova separate from becoming an NT overseen by the PDGA. But all NTs are automatically qualifiers.

Kewl, so I guess we can look into that then....

seems like the HOTT A-tier in Wimberly would be a good option for an NT also, they have 2 course and one temp course right?

That is accurate and the temp course isn't your fathers temp course, its a course taht's been around for awhile and is only used in tourneys. And its awesome. But the HOTT to be a NT we'd have to extend the dates of the NT. That's part of my point. The scheule needs to be expanded to like 10 month to allow those up north to enjoy winter golfing in the south.

If the season is extended, it would be earlier in the year, not later than a month before the USDGC. Sort of like the Vibram this year in late August so players who qualify have time to get their USDGC entries submitted. I don't think there would be a problem if a host submitted a bid for a potential NT date as early as February in a southern location.

If the season is extended, it would be earlier in the year, not later than a month before the USDGC. Sort of like the Vibram this year in late August so players who qualify have time to get their USDGC entries submitted. I don't think there would be a problem if a host submitted a bid for a potential NT date as early as February in a southern location.

Why can't it it start the year prior in November. For example NT runs November 09 - October 10? The fall is the best in the South. The trees still have leaves and the weather is great. Spring time the courses are easier due to no leaves, no thorns, no shule.

Because the sport runs on a calendar year basis especially at the highest level for points, tour awards, membership and budget. If Innova is willing to make an event in Oct-Dec a qualifier for the following year, that would be OK. But I don't see the PDGA running NT events after a month before the USDGC. Now if you can persuade Innova to change the USDGC to December, then maybe there could be NTs in Oct/Nov.

Because the sport runs on a calendar year basis especially at the highest level for points, tour awards, membership and budget. If Innova is willing to make an event in Oct-Dec a qualifier for the following year, that would be OK. But I don't see the PDGA running NT events after a month before the USDGC. Now if you can persuade Innova to change the USDGC to December, then maybe there could be NTs in Oct/Nov.

Just because that's how it is doesn't mean that's how it should be or how it will be in the future. I see no reason that you can't start the 2010 NT in November of 2009. Might as well make this thing a 12 month season. Of course that would mean there probably whouldn't be as much prestigue around the earlier events and the Memorial would no longer be first up. That said why does USDGC have to be the last event in the NT. Asking because I don't know the answer. To me the USDGC will always be good (i.e. majors in golf) and don't need to be the end event to get prestigue. With golf they've used the points championships to create other tourneys that draw all the big players (FedEx Cup). That model is starting to pay off for them. Leave the USDGC where it is, but just extend the season and create another event that will determine the points champ. The USDGC will always be the sprots best event kinda like the masters or the british open in golf. Worlds is your US open (rotating course).

I'm not saying it has to be that way, but that's the criteria under the current format. I doubt your arguments would be compelling to straddle years since the weather in Texas is easily suitable for several months from Feb thru May to be part of the current process. BTW, I'm not on the NT committee but have just observed their decision process over the years.

However, it might be clever to force players to become members in two years so they can compete in the series which then straddles two PDGA membership years...

I'm not saying it has to be that way, but that's the criteria under the current format. I doubt your arguments would be compelling to straddle years since the weather in Texas is easily suitable for several months from Feb thru May to be part of the current process. BTW, I'm not on the NT committee but have just observed their decision process over the years.

However, it might be clever to force players to become members in two years so they can compete in the series which then straddles two PDGA membership years...

Or set the memberships up so they run from November current year trough December next year. Or don't they already do that.

Because the sport runs on a calendar year basis especially at the highest level for points, tour awards, membership and budget. If Innova is willing to make an event in Oct-Dec a qualifier for the following year, that would be OK. But I don't see the PDGA running NT events after a month before the USDGC. Now if you can persuade Innova to change the USDGC to December, then maybe there could be NTs in Oct/Nov.

That would make it nice for the south. we would have time to hold Nt and qualifiers in oct nov

Great Points. And that could help PDGA like you said strattling years...good idea...are you listening PDGA???
Also why not allow NT's after USDGC i agree it will by no means take away from the prestige of USDGC. you could have NT's till the end of the year. That way I bet we could get 2 in Texas. An April Austin / SanAntnio 1 and then the Dec Piney Woods in Tyler would be a great NT.....

I think you need to be realistic. Texas hasn't even made the effort to put in an NT bid yet and you expect the USDGC to change its date, and/or the NT series to straddle two years and the PDGA to operate their budget and membership renewals across two years? Those factors aren't holding back the potential for a spring Texas NT to be accepted to show Texas is even in the game. Baby steps.

P.S.
There have been some very very nice additions to Metroplex disc golf courses in the past year, and I would like to see enough support here in the area to hold a Worlds here.
The biggest problem with that is the August time period being the hottest time of the year and it would drain all the players to play two rounds a day for a week.

Less than a 20 mile drive from Turner Park to The Vet, Samuell Grand, or either of the 2 Cedar Hill courses. That makes 5 courses, plus the other 3 proposed courses near Grand, that could be included in a bid for Worlds. Other than The Vet, the courses are pretty well shaded, so the heat wouldn't necessarily be prohibitive to a summer Worlds in the DFW area in the next few years. As Suemac already said, they did it in Houston, on 4 courses that are NOT fun to play in the summer.

Couldn't resist the urge to thread-drift. :)

I think you need to be realistic. Texas hasn't even made the effort to put in an NT bid yet and you expect the USDGC to change its date, and/or the NT series to straddle two years and the PDGA to operate their budget and membership renewals across two years? Those factors aren't holding back the potential for a spring Texas NT to be accepted to show Texas is even in the game. Baby steps.


I have to agree with Chuck on this one. We should show an intrest before we ask people to adjust there schedule to ours! I think we could pull it off in DFW if we moved or created a Jan or Feb NT.

Gary Duke where are you on this one. It seems that you need to jump on this. We obviously have a vested interest in getting an NT here and I would imagine that the State coordinator should/would be directly involved. There are a lot of great possible hosting spots in Texas to consider. It IS a duty of all Texas TDs to get involved. Contact me anytime I am willing to help: Bill Cartwright #31167, Phone 361-814-2600, email [email protected] Lets have a pow-wow and get the ball rolling. We may have lost 2010 but 2011 is closer than it seems. Let's do this. GO TEXAS!

Round Rock is ready for it

Is Texas ready to pitch in?

Im in and I have Dynamic Disc TD and support on board for any help. I think Texas could do this real well, I would enjoy helpin Vinnie with this. You have a great club, support and courses.
I agree States TD should, could do this, but it seems for many reason doesnt have a vision of a big NT....just seems to run states at minimum to keep it A ??? not being mean, just thats the way it seems.

New i just found out, I believe Jerry has got the Piney woods open Dec12-13 to be a USDGC qualifier, hey yeah for Texas atleast we can drive to this one.

I don't blame any TD for not wanting to run an NT. You add tons of cash to the event which is never enough to keep most of the winners happy. You only get Pros at your event, so there is never money from discs sales or Am entry fees to cover your losses. It is just isn't a money maker for a business or club.


The NT schedule isn't National at all. It would make much more sense to me if the US was broken into several regions, and the top events in the regions either $$ wise or player wise would be called the "National Tour".

Right now it is who wants to donate the most money to purse.

I don't blame any TD for not wanting to run an NT. You add tons of cash to the event which is never enough to keep most of the winners happy. You only get Pros at your event, so there is never money from discs sales or Am entry fees to cover your losses. It is just isn't a money maker for a business or club.


The NT schedule isn't National at all. It would make much more sense to me if the US was broken into several regions, and the top events in the regions either $$ wise or player wise would be called the "National Tour".

Right now it is who wants to donate the most money to purse.

Couldn't you just run a parallel A/B Tier Am event at the same time to recoup those losses, have a raffle, structure the AM events around the top pro events (final 9, etc.) so they can attend? What is the min added cash for a NT?

The USDGC will always be the sprots best event kinda like the masters or the british open in golf.

Just because that's how it is doesn't mean that's how it should be or will be in the future.

what is the min added cash for a nt? $5000

Couldn't you just run a parallel A/B Tier Am event at the same time to recoup those losses, have a raffle, structure the AM events around the top pro events (final 9, etc.) so they can attend? What is the min added cash for a NT?

Sure, you can do whatever you want, as long as you are adding X amount of dollars to the Pro purse.

Now running another tourney at the same time involves more courses, more people to help, and of course added money to the other event.

Just seems like the national tour should:
1-Be a national tour. Play West coast to East coast, and all the places between.
2-Should have some kind of a flow. Allow people to jump on the tour and move across the country in some kind of orderly manner.

If only all the (rich) cats in the herd would line up nicely from west to east...

Sure, you can do whatever you want, as long as you are adding X amount of dollars to the Pro purse.

Now running another tourney at the same time involves more courses, more people to help, and of course added money to the other event.

Just seems like the national tour should:
1-Be a national tour. Play West coast to East coast, and all the places between.
2-Should have some kind of a flow. Allow people to jump on the tour and move across the country in some kind of orderly manner.

I totally agree with you smitty. Great point, I know the NT is young and bigger events are new and growing. Its great to see events and payouts get big, its what all Pros want to see. I hope PDGA will see vision of growth and organize more of a "National" tour with a flow like you said from coast to coast so it makes since to travel...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the early years of the NT is was a tour....with a series of consecutive events in the west, then perhaps the midwest, then east coast. I believe scheduling fights doomed that plan. Potential NT events, of which there are few, weren't willing to move from their traditional dates. So, for example, if the Memorial (first weekend in March) is to be an NT, plus other West Coast contenders demand to be in May and August---probably with very good reason---the idea of a tour breaks down.

As long as it's not terribly lucrative to host an NT, the PDGA won't have much leverage to force them into a set schedule.

The biggest drawback to a more geographically organized tour was valid concern about regional financial fatigue. Texas could have four or five big events in a row. But the regional players who "fund" much of the payout for the traveling pros don't want to or can't spend $300-$400 a weekend for a month let alone get the time off. If the NT added cash purses were provided by a big national sponsor as originally designed, then local turnout wouldn't matter and the 20-30 travelers could be the only ones who show up to play week after week. But after five years, that still hasn't and isn't likey to happen for some time.

The biggest drawback to a more geographically organized tour was valid concern about regional financial fatigue. Texas could have four four or five big events in a row. But the regional players who "fund" much of the payout for the traveling pros don't want to or can't spend $300-$400 a weekend for a month let alone get the time off. If the NT added cash purses were provided by a big national sponsor as originally designed, then local turnout wouldn't matter and the 20-30 travelers could be the only ones who show up to play week after week. But after five years, that still hasn't and isn't likey to happen for some time.

I can see both sides of the argument. As TD of the Veterans Park Open, one of the longest running A-Tiers in the region, I would love to see our event bump up to NT level to draw even more of the best players. However, as has been said, what is my motivation to scrimp and scour all year long for added cash only to give it all away with no reward for myself or for my club members who have put in a significant amount of the time and money involved?

I agree with Chuck on the purpose of the National Tour, and it is unfortunate that the ultimate goal of the tour has not yet come to fruition.

I don't know how much time and resources the PDGA has invested in seeking out corporate involvement, but that is ultimately the solution. Think about it--the added cash requirement for 10 NT events could be taken care of by securing a single $50,000 sponsor. That may sound like a huge chunk of cash, but to many companies who might get involved, it is minimal. I'm not sure how much Woodchuck Cider put up for this year's Tour or where it all ended up, but instead of a final end-of-year series prize, that cash could have gone to individual events to help the volunteer TDs meet their requirements.

I can understand most of the points argued on these four pages. As the Tournament Director for the AO NT last year I can speak directly from experience. I enjoyed putting together and working on the Atlanta Open for 7 months, but when game day finally arrived I quickly began to ask myself what was the point.

Two years ago, my brother, Drew Eberhard, died on Sat night during the Atlanta Open. He didn't get to tee off for round three. Obviously, his tragic death has been very hard on my family. This year, the Atlanta Open became a memorial event to my brother www.theatlopen.com A close friend of mine, Michael Burton, made a statement to the players, during the player's meeting, to have a positive attitude and go easy on me as the TD. Not ten minutes after his suggestion, I get bombarded by two of the worlds top players about an issue that was handled by the PDGA and not myself. Similar teary-eyed complaints followed me around all weekend by a few of the top touring pros. Most of these guys I have known for 10 years or more. I really began to ask myself: why did you take so much time away from your family and personal life for this? With the help of a few friends and sponsors we were able to raise $7,000 added cash after all fees were paid (by the way the latest publication has the AO listed around $6,300 or something close, which is a misprint. I handed the PDGA $7K CASH). Field was limited to 90 players, so $7K made for a pretty good payout. A ton of work went into raising that kind of money. The amount of time that is spent running around town / gas money / course maint. / phone calls / proposals etc. make for an incredible amount of work. The PDGA is a great organization that does the best it can to organize the PDGA schedule and National Tour. Without the PDGA there is no NT and without the locals willing to do their part there would be no NT.

I guess I painted that picture to say that I dont really care if the AO drops in status. I think I am happy keeping the AO an Atier from here on out. I would rather cater to players with a little more gratitude and compassion for others. I like Gang's idea of going from an NT to a Btier, maybe I will keep that in mind.

Don't get me wrong, I am still motivated to give back to the sport. I just have a hard time when giving back to the sport looks like what I described in paragraph two. Running a quality event is still my main motivation. I played in the Majestic for the second time this year. That event is the way a NT should be run. I wonder what Timmy thinks? I have been running tournaments for 15 years. Last years Atlanta Open was the biggest event I have staged. Its sad to say that my motivation has taken a hit.

I'm sorry for your loss. People raise the money and run these big tournaments for a variety of reasons. Contrary to what I might have posted in the past, I do not think their reasons are always ignoble. When you have a major life changing event, even a happy one like a wedding or birth, sometimes your perspective changes and you have to re-evaluate your reasons.

It probably is not really the high maintenance pros that changed your perspective, but the contrast between their "tragedy" and yours. The distinction there may be subtle. It is not a few of them being jerks, but you realizing something that was true all along: life is sometimes unfairly short and our time could often be spent on better things.

I think if you drop from NT to A, you eliminate a lot of PDGA contractual constraints, but it won't necessarily rid you of high maintenance players. Apparently they brought their stress to our little A-tier a couple of years ago, but I didn't see it or I don't remember it. And it might increase your costs since you'd pay the $5 per player fees. I have heard of some TDs loosening the bonds of the PDGA by running their NT/A as a B-tier, and there was that one TD who ran his NT unsanctioned. If it were my call, we'd run our A-tier as a C-tier with tons of added cash, but Brett does most of the work to raise the added cash, so it isn't my call.

Sounds like it is the same two top touring pros that are giving TD's all kinds of crap.

Sounds like it is the same two top touring pros that are giving TD's all kinds of crap.


This is off topic but needs to be stated (and restated b/c it was covered earlier), ALL PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS should act like PROFESSIONALS. We just finished our Btier here in Vegas and everyone of the top guys/girls that were here were nothing short of spectacular. In fact several of them are willing to help our club raise money by donating some of their warm up rounds for the Gentlemans Club in February 2010 to the highest bidder (this auction will be on www.lvbagtag.com shortly).

Sorry for the shameless promoting but it leads to this, I believe that bad seeds should be called out for being just that. If you have had an experience with someone stop beating around the bush and put them on the spot. People will not try to change who they are unless they realize they are not respected/liked.

The best plan is swift action. Simply tell the complainers that the reward for their inappropriate whining is a big fat DQ. Pack your jive up and go home and complain to Momma because she may be the only one who cares. I am so sick and tired of people complaining to others when things don't go their way.

It seems prestige and exposure are the only real rewards for running an NT event, which is fine for me, but not everyone. We need big corporate sponsorship to ease the burden of financing these high profile events.

well...and there seems to need to be a significant reason for a TD to want to throw a NT. can we not reward, pay TD's for running a successful Nt event. Is there a way for all players, PDGA or something to reward financially the TD's that run NT's. it would make more guys want to run them. Right ???

NT TDs are allowed a management fee up to $750 if the event meets other financial obligations.

NT TDs are allowed a management fee up to $750 if the event meets other financial obligations.

Not good enough...

If anyone did that, the tour rats would start crying about purse size. They don't care if the TD's are spending thousands of their own money. PDGA needs to start reimbursing the people that are actually running the tour.

I think if you drop from NT to A, you eliminate a lot of PDGA contractual constraints, but it won't necessarily rid you of high maintenance players. Apparently they brought their stress to our little A-tier a couple of years ago, but I didn't see it or I don't remember it. And it might increase your costs since you'd pay the $5 per player fees. I have heard of some TDs loosening the bonds of the PDGA by running their NT/A as a B-tier, and there was that one TD who ran his NT unsanctioned. If it were my call, we'd run our A-tier as a C-tier with tons of added cash, but Brett does most of the work to raise the added cash, so it isn't my call.

i'll never run anything but c tiers at this point to avoid those "contractual constraints".

If anyone did that, the tour rats would start crying about purse size. They don't care if the TD's are spending thousands of their own money. PDGA needs to start reimbursing the people that are actually running the tour.
They already are. If the TD raises the $5000 needed for an NT which they seem to do, the PDGA stipend to the event is more than the $750 the TD could receive. It's a matter of them keeping it. I suspect that some actually do get compensation via sales that are not necessarily placed on the official financial report for the event which is fine.

It's a matter of them keeping it.

I doubt any NT TD is keeping the PDGA stipend. Why? See the first hand accounts regarding the touring players above. The PDGA needs to send a check, separate from the event, to every NT TD for their work. They are the reason a tour exists in the first place, not the PDGA.

It doesn't seem like they care too much about the NT. They don't run it so why should they?

While there's merit in having the equivalent of a bonus payment to TDs for doing a good job, if you think about it, it just adds more overhead (cost) to a process that doesn't need it since the TD already has the funds if they meet the criteria.

Last I checked, none of the NT TDs were slaves. They run NTs because they want to. When they don't want to, they quit. The PDGA doesn't need to give them anything more than they are getting right now, unless the PDGA feels it needs to attract more NT TDs.

Not good enough...

If anyone did that, the tour rats would start crying about purse size. They don't care if the TD's are spending thousands of their own money. PDGA needs to start reimbursing the people that are actually running the tour.

Or better, the people using the services (i.e. the players of the tournament) need to accept that part of what a tournament takes in will be used to compensate the people for the services provided. A percentage of all sponsorships, registrations, PDGA contributions and so on that funds the tournaments needs to go to cover expenses. Expenses which include course reservations and preparations, materials, food or beverages, other assorted costs AND organizer compensation. What is left after that is 'purse'.

Why have the people who are not in attendance (i.e. the 'PDGA' whose funds are a collection of player contributions) pick up the expense of organizer compensation for them? Why do we have to hide behind the fact that the organizers are getting the shaft in the deal by providing some sort of back door, after the fact payment so they can't be pressured into giving it up for additional purse?

The PDGA doesn't need to give them anything more than they are getting right now, unless the PDGA feels it needs to attract more NT TDs.

Or keep quality ones without them getting burnt out. The NT has been a joke from the beginning. I expect to see it get worse throughout the next few years.

Last I checked, none of the NT TDs were slaves. They run NTs because they want to. When they don't want to, they quit. The PDGA doesn't need to give them anything more than they are getting right now, unless the PDGA feels it needs to attract more NT TDs.

Correct in that. One of the reasons so many TDs won't take a percentage even if the PDGA states that they are entitled is that so many other TDs are willing to do things for free.

But I do feel that the overall quality of tournaments suffers as the people who tire of it move on or people who might be able to pull off a great event decide its not worth the effort. A true promoter (entertainment, sports, etc.) makes a good living. Hard to do that when the consumers in a market gets and continues to expect such efforts for little to nothing.

It also results in most organizers being week-enders. Real jobs are required to pay the bills, running PDGA tournaments is the hobby or sideline.

Correct in that. One of the reasons so many TDs won't take a percentage even if the PDGA states that they are entitled is that so many other TDs are willing to do things for free.

But I do feel that the overall quality of tournaments suffers as the people who tire of it move on or people who might be able to pull off a great event decide its not worth the effort. A true promoter (entertainment, sports, etc.) makes a good living. Hard to do that when the consumers in a market gets and continues to expect such efforts for little to nothing.

Hence the much deserved and long overdue kudos to John Houck and Brian Mace for trying to make a go of it in the true spirit of the game only to be shot down by all the armchair critics.

Hence the much deserved and long overdue kudos to John Houck and Brian Mace for trying to make a go of it in the true spirit of the game only to be shot down by all the armchair critics.

...or bucket crabs.


http://www.discgolfersr.us/profiles/blogs/here-are-some-of-my-thoughts

or coconut crabs (inre: Amelia Earhart)

fish tailing.

Also I am just a player / spectactor not a NT TD. I have no desire to run an event like that. I just want to attend / play.

Waaaaah bleeping waaah.

Sorry to be so harsh, but it seems appropriate.

Why shouldn't you do it?

Why should someone else be required to do what you want done when you aren't willing to do it?

There will never be a Worlds here in SoCal because there aren't enough people here willing to "not play" in order to make it happen. That makes me sad. It is not, however, a "PDGA national organization" problem. There is nothing to be gained by complaining about it here on the discussion board. The right course would be for me to go from local club to club trying to build a coalition of interested parties, but I'm not up for that. If someone else can pull that part off and needs a course TD and assistant planner, then I'll take some vacation and come on board to help. But since I'm not willing to make it happen I also choose not to complain about it not happening.

Judging by your signature line, you have no problems complaining....so lay off a man just trying to voice his opinion.

Judging by your signature line, you have no problems complaining....so lay off a man just trying to voice his opinion.



Werd!

... so lay off a man ...

Way to go! Completely ignore the straight to the point, simple, and utterly valid points made in his post. Hit a little too close to home for you and "Werd"?

It's true - - - personal attacks are so much easier than trying to refute good arguments!!!

Also, IF an opinion is stupid, then it should be called stupid.

Point taken.....

Now, my opinion.

Opinions are just that, opinions. Whether one person or everyone thinks an opinion is stupid, it is still just one person's point of view. Without opinions there would be no progress, no change, just a stagnant world of peaceful agreement, whether good or not.

From the start, Scott simply stated that he was disappointed with the venues for NT events in 2010, and made a few suggestions as to potential change. I do, however, agree that hosting an NT event does require local TDs, clubs and people in general to pull together to meet the requirements and put in the bid.

If you'll go back and read from the first post instead of picking out a small fraction of an even smaller post, you will note that, despite being a "stupid" opinion or not, the opinion sparked communication, which is exactly what needs to take place. Some good ideas and suggestions have been tossed out there. Whether or not anyone acts on any of these suggestions is the issue. I guarantee if Scott could continue to earn a living and be able to focus all of his attention on disc golf related issues, there would be an NT in Texas.

Now, my solution. **Keep in mind I have very little knowledge of the inner workings of the PDGA or it's affiliates.**

Using simple math and even simpler estimations....in any given month of the year, there are approximately 120 PDGA sanctioned events in the US and wolrd. The PDGA requires that a certain dollar amount be taken from each player's entry as a fee to the PDGA. At an average of $2 per player per event, at, say 100 entrants per event, we are looking at about $288,000 per year the PDGA stands to make off of entry taxing. Why, with a small portion of this money, could the PDGA not sponsor a few people to travel to events from A tiers to C tiers all over the country. This "specialized" team could meet with the local clubs running the events, check out the courses, meet city parks employees, etc. These traveling "mentors" could work with the local clubs in improving their club operations, make suggestions on improving local courses, even going so far as to provide the framework to approach local government on grants to improve parks and such. Improving clubs and parks nationwide would attract even more golfers, improve existing parks as well as inspire new ones, and before you know it, all regions in the country would be ready to handle an NT event.

Now, I know that it is not that simple, but, it's just my opinion.

Waaaaah bleeping waaah.

Sorry to be so harsh, but it seems appropriate.

Why shouldn't you do it?

Why should someone else be required to do what you want done when you aren't willing to do it?

There will never be a Worlds here in SoCal because there aren't enough people here willing to "not play" in order to make it happen. That makes me sad. It is not, however, a "PDGA national organization" problem. There is nothing to be gained by complaining about it here on the discussion board. The right course would be for me to go from local club to club trying to build a coalition of interested parties, but I'm not up for that. If someone else can pull that part off and needs a course TD and assistant planner, then I'll take some vacation and come on board to help. But since I'm not willing to make it happen I also choose not to complain about it not happening.

You've totally missed the point and are taking one post of context from the rest. I don't have the expereice at this point to put in a bid for an NT event. Maybe someday, but at this point San Antonio still needs to mature its clubs & courses a little bit before taking on that type of project. The burden of proof isn't on me to run a NT event (again, I may do that someday, just not right now), the majority of the burden lies with the PDGA to make sure a National Tour has an event closer the 1000+ to one of its largest player pools & consumer demographics. Clearly there are courses in the South that can handle an NT. Clearly there are TDs in the South who have the capacity to run NT events. In my opinion the PDGA needs to do a better job of making sure the NT has big events in each region. Sure, maybe no TD submitted a bid from this region, maybe they did. Nobody has really come in here and given any details to that effect. Either way the PDGA could/should reach out to try and make something work here. Its in all of our best interests to make sure this isn't a yearly occurnance.

You talk of this 'PDGA' as if its some sort of entity or corporation as opposed to a membership. Help your self by repeating, "It is us, the members are the PDGA."

............the majority of the burden lies with the PDGA to make sure a National Tour has an event closer the 1000+ to one of its largest player pools & consumer demographics..........

Perhaps you are right on this. So, as part of the PDGA, along with the other parts of the PDGA that are in your area, get together and get it done. The majority of the burden to make this happen lies with the PDGA members in your local area, just like the majority of the burden lies with the members of other areas to make things happen. There is no one sitting around in some office thinking, "I wish someone would give me something to do." If you want it, go get it.

YOU ARE THE PDGA!

Point taken.....

we are looking at about $288,000 per year the PDGA stands to make off of entry taxing. Why, with a small portion of this money, could the PDGA not sponsor a few people to travel to events from A tiers to C tiers all over the country.

A team can travel to events all year across the country for a fraction of $288,000? Perhaps you didn't consider all components of funding this (wages and benefits, lodging, food, travel and so on).

Using simple math and even simpler estimations....in any given month of the year, there are approximately 120 PDGA sanctioned events in the US and wolrd. The PDGA requires that a certain dollar amount be taken from each player's entry as a fee to the PDGA. At an average of $2 per player per event, at, say 100 entrants per event, we are looking at about $288,000 per year the PDGA stands to make off of entry taxing. Why, with a small portion of this money, could the PDGA not sponsor a few people to travel to events from A tiers to C tiers all over the country. This "specialized" team could meet with the local clubs running the events, check out the courses, meet city parks employees, etc. These traveling "mentors" could work with the local clubs in improving their club operations, make suggestions on improving local courses, even going so far as to provide the framework to approach local government on grants to improve parks and such. Improving clubs and parks nationwide would attract even more golfers, improve existing parks as well as inspire new ones, and before you know it, all regions in the country would be ready to handle an NT event.

Now, I know that it is not that simple, but, it's just my opinion.

The math won't add up. All money going to the PDGA is spent, so you'd have to chop something out of the budget and argue that this is more worthwhile. Then if you figure (1) how many mentors, (2) how many events, and (3) the cost of travel, lodging, paying the mentors, etc., it would come to an awful lot of money.

Opinions are just that, opinions. Whether one person or everyone thinks an opinion is stupid, it is still just one person's point of view. Without opinions there would be no progress, no change, just a stagnant world of peaceful agreement, whether good or not.

From the start, Scott simply stated that he was disappointed with the venues for NT events in 2010, and made a few suggestions as to potential change. I do, however, agree that hosting an NT event does require local TDs, clubs and people in general to pull together to meet the requirements and put in the bid.



It's not just opinions, but how they're stated.

Perhaps he might have said that it's a major shortcoming that the "National Tour" misses a significant portion of the nation, and perhaps local disc golfers and the PDGA can find a way to improve this and make the NT better.

Perhaps referring to it as a "Crock" in the title and "JOKE" in the first sentence rubbed a few people wrong.

The opinion that Texas TDs shouldn't have to step up, as TDs elsewhere have done, is fine as an opinion, but will cause an obvious reaction.

The opinion that the PDGA should carry the burden is fine. Of course, there will be opinions to the contrary that the PDGA shouldn't---or, that the PDGA can't---but all can be presented civilly if the posters are willing.

Yes, let's be considerate of differing opinions. Let's be considerate of uninformed opinions, because we can all learn something. But let's be respectful with them all.

The burden of proof isn't on me to run a NT event (again, I may do that someday, just not right now), the majority of the burden lies with the PDGA to make sure a National Tour has an event closer the 1000+ to one of its largest player pools & consumer demographics.

This where we disagree, yet this is the point you don't seem willing to discuss. It isn't discussion when you just repost your opening argument again and again.

This where we disagree, yet this is the point you don't seem willing to discuss. It isn't discussion when you just repost your opening argument again and again.

Well, it isn't actually discussion either when people ignore his point, and refer to the rules/structure of the present NT tour to "rebut" him. Telling him, or Texas TDs to get off their butt isn't actually a rebuttal to the idea that "the PDGA should have an NT in Texas." It is simply restating the current structure where NTs are generated from the ground up rather than top down. His criticism obviously assumes a different structure, so flinging the current structure back at him misses the point.

For the record, I understand the argument that the PDGA (the entity with elected leaders, not the amorphous conglomeration of members) should want "its tour" to reach as many members as possible. However, I also realize a couple of fallacies in the argument. One is that the NT Tour is not the PDGA's tour, and was never intended to be; it is the top players' tour. Secondly, if the NT were meant to be a "PDGA tour," it could not exist as is, since the PDGA simply cannot finance it.

In short, using David's more-clearly-stated language, I think the PDGA should at least sympathise with Scott's idea, but they obviously cannot implement it.

I would be willing to say that TX hosts 15-20% of all PDGA events and dominates the tournament section on this board yet doesn't get any Qualifier spots for more than a few years.

Seriously there are friggin many events that go down here we basically have no more room and it has gotten to the point where the TDs have to look at the player base and see what they can best do to make them happy. We have quite a few SN events now as opposed to maybe 1-2 5 years ago and I def hear a lot of "what does the PDGA do for us" from many parts of the state.

One day I will live in a place with 1/4 as many golfers that has 6 spots to give away as opposed to the 1 we currently have in this small state.

I would be willing to say that TX hosts 15-20% of all PDGA events

An admittedly cursory & non-scientific (and possibly inaccurate) perusal of the first 6 months of this year on the "Schedule & Results" section of this site yields 9.54% (54/566) of PDGA events having been hosted in TX.

The PDGA would also like to have a Worlds outside North America in Scandinavia or Japan, and it would be in the PDGAs best interest for global expansion, but likewise it doesn't have the resources to do it without the local teams coming forth with a bid to host it.

You talk of this 'PDGA' as if its some sort of entity or corporation as opposed to a membership. Help your self by repeating, "It is us, the members are the PDGA." YOU ARE THE PDGA!

Incorrect. I pay money to the PDGA. I am a customer. What you are describing is some sort of grass roots effort. Just so we are clear, I pay money to the PDGA, therefore I am a consumer of PDGA goods and services. I'd guess in fact that the PDGA is incorporated (or some for of similar entitiy).

An admittedly cursory & non-scientific (and possibly inaccurate) perusal of the first 6 months of this year on the "Schedule & Results" section of this site yields 9.54% (54/566) of PDGA events having been hosted in TX.

That also like you stated is only for the 1st six months and our true season starts in October with 3 of my 4 TX a-tiers this year are still upcoming.. Also 10% is still a pretty significant amount of events for a place without a qualifier.

Perhaps referring to it as a "Crock" in the title and "JOKE" in the first sentence rubbed a few people wrong.

A) If the shoe fits ....
B) The harsh words did their point and drew attention to the topic
C) I've already admitted that I should have worded the subject line differently about 50 posts ago.

Incorrect. I pay money to the PDGA. I am a customer. What you are describing is some sort of grass roots effort. Just so we are clear, I pay money to the PDGA, therefore I am a consumer of PDGA goods and services. I'd guess in fact that the PDGA is incorporated (or some for of similar entitiy).
Then that's your misconception. The PDGA is non-profit and essentially the members are the stockholders/owners. If a stockholder/owner wants something done, they need to either do it themselves or find the resources to get it done.

Incorrect. I pay money to the PDGA. I am a customer. What you are describing is some sort of grass roots effort. Just so we are clear, I pay money to the PDGA, therefore I am a consumer of PDGA goods and services. I'd guess in fact that the PDGA is incorporated (or some for of similar entitiy).

No, you bought a membership. You are part of the group as much as I am. You are not my customer. The membership pays for a certain amount of management help to keep things going, but that is it. The members are expected to help carry the load.

That is how a mostly volunteer organization works. You are one of the volunteers. Hopefully.

I believe there is a mission statement on the PDGA that might clarify things further in this regards. A history review of how Steady Ed turned the PDGA over to the players might also help.

No, you bought a membership. You are part of the group as much as I am. You are not my customer. The membership pays for a certain amount of management help to keep things going, but that is it. The members are expected to help carry the load.

That is how a mostly volunteer organization works. You are one of the volunteers. Hopefully.

I believe there is a mission statement on the PDGA that might clarify things further in this regards. A history review of how Steady Ed turned the PDGA over to the players might also help.


Your talking about the mission statement that was changed to not include anything like competitiveness and a real division structure?

ED may have turned it over to the players but it seems like all the players do is put in courses, run tournaments, and coordinate all things locally for the PDGA while the ORG pulls in $3-5 more dollars per event per player and when someone takes issue to any of their policies they are told to just stop renewing if they aren't happy.

The NT is still weak, Worlds is weak, and the only thing not weak are local events where the volunteers put everything together, not the PDGA, yet still send hundreds or thousands of dollars off to GA.

That also like you stated is only for the 1st six months and our true season starts in October with 3 of my 4 TX a-tiers this year are still upcoming.. Also 10% is still a pretty significant amount of events for a place without a qualifier.
Analysis of the second half of the year doesn't help your argument much, Kid. Using similar analytical technique to my post above, I come up with 7.65% (45/588) events in TX for that period. Grand total 8.58% (99/1154) for calendar year 2009.

Analysis of the second half of the year doesn't help your argument much, Kid. Using similar analytical technique to my post above, I come up with 7.65% (45/588) events in TX for that period. Grand total 8.58% (99/1154) for calendar year 2009.

I don't know if I am more impressed by you being able to find this information or the fact that the PDGA has this information somewhere on here.

If a stockholder/owner wants something done, they need to either do it themselves or find the resources to get it done.
Interesting. So, if I want my iPhone to have an FM tuner, I (as a large Apple owner/stockholder) need to take the damned thing apart & do it myself instead of petitioning Apple to engineer a solution for me?:confused:

This where we disagree, yet this is the point you don't seem willing to discuss. It isn't discussion when you just repost your opening argument again and again.

Totally open to discussion. That said, no argument has convinced me otherwise. I'm a reasonable person and totally willing to admit when I'm wrong and change opinions but that just hasn't happened yet.

Please convince me that as a paying member to an organization I don't have a right to expect that the organization holds most of the burden on coordinating and scheduling organizational activities. Additionally when looking at the PDGA website the first thing it states it does with membership monies is, "organizes and manages a 1,000+ competitive event schedule". The PDGA admits they hold the major portion of the burden when it comes to organizing, managing, and scheduling competitive events. Further along it states it, "provides sponsorship to Major, National Tour and Super Tour events in the form of a financial contribution, banners and flags, Marshals, event registration assistance". Clearly the PDGA thinks they hold this burden so I am not out of line to expect that.

Just to add to the point let's look at the demographics ...

In 2008 1136 of 11,629 or 10% of the US PDGA membership base came from Texas. Only California had more members (8 more to be exact) and I'm guessing the Texas passed Cali in 2009. Only 2 other states had more than 500 members (Michigan w/ 710 & North Carolina w/ 523).

In 2008 Texas accounted for 79 or the 842 sanctioned events in the US, or roughly 10%. Only 1 other state even came with 20 events of that total. That state was Michigan with 59.

Based on those stats I can say the PDGA owes it Texas to make sure there are top tier NT events in this state. We subsidize the PDGA with membership dues and tournament fees more than any other state and deserve to see the fruits of that subsidization.

Money is contributed to the PDGA to do the things we want, including assist in putting together events.

When PDGA members put an event together, it is a PDGA event, local scale or not. Drawing lines between whether a local PDGA member or an out of town PDGA member coordinates the event it is short sighted. The PDGA coordinates events through its members on a local scales as well as national. Its all still just members, mostly volunteeers, making things happen.

To expect it otherwise would be way more expensive than you could possibly fathom. It is a grass roots effort that relies on uncompensated efforts to make things happen. And it will be for quite awhile.

Totally open to discussion. That said, no argument has convinced me otherwise. I'm a reasonable person and totally willing to admit when I'm wrong and change opinions but that just hasn't happened yet.

Please convince me that as a paying member to an organization I don't have a right to expect that the organization holds most of the burden on coordinating and scheduling organizational activities. Additionally when looking at the PDGA website the first thing it states it does with membership monies is, "organizes and manages a 1,000+ competitive event schedule". The PDGA admits they hold the major portion of the burden when it comes to organizing, managing, and scheduling competitive events. Further along it states it, "provides sponsorship to Major, National Tour and Super Tour events in the form of a financial contribution, banners and flags, Marshals, event registration assistance". Clearly the PDGA thinks they hold this burden so I am not out of line to expect that.

Just to add to the point let's look at the demographics ...

In 2008 1136 of 11,629 or 10% of the US PDGA membership base came from Texas. Only California had more members (8 more to be exact) and I'm guessing the Texas passed Cali in 2009. Only 2 other states had more than 500 members (Michigan w/ 710 & North Carolina w/ 523).

In 2008 Texas accounted for 79 or the 842 sanctioned events in the US, or roughly 10%. Only 1 other state even came with 20 events of that total. That state was Michigan with 59.

Based on those stats I can say the PDGA owes it Texas to make sure there are top tier NT events in this state. We subsidize the PDGA with membership dues and tournament fees more than any other state and deserve to see the fruits of that subsidization.

The rest of the membership owes Texas? How do I in Wisconsin owe you?? Why would a larger percentage of my contributions be required to go your direction????

This self centered garbage is really getting old. There is no PDGA corporation period. It is a membership. A club. You pay dues. You are not buying a burger.

Interesting. So, if I want my iPhone to have an FM tuner, I (as a large Apple owner/stockholder) need to take the damned thing apart & do it myself instead of petitioning Apple to engineer a solution for me?:confused:

Not the same, you're smarter than that.

There is no PDGA corporation period.
Demonstrably incorrect: Articles of Incorporation of Professional Disc Golf Association (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ArticlesofIncorporationCURRENT0906.pdf)

Analysis of the second half of the year doesn't help your argument much, Kid. Using similar analytical technique to my post above, I come up with 7.65% (45/588) events in TX for that period. Grand total 8.58% (99/1154) for calendar year 2009.

I'd take the other approach that if 1 state holds 10% of the events (and signifigantly more than any other state) they deserve to reep some rewards from that.

Looks like Texas is being outsmarted by all of those other states running Majors and NTs to get the big money from the PDGA, eh?

Not the same, you're smarter than that.
OK. I disagree, but I'll make it simpler for you. I am hosting a disc golf tournament & I want liability insurance for it. Per CK's statement, I need to go out & find it for myself & should not expect the PDGA to do it for me.

Or, how 'bout, I am hosting a disc golf tournament & want some rules to govern the play. Do I need to write them myself (or have them written), or can I rely on the PDGA for that?

The rest of the membership owes Texas? How do I in Wisconsin owe you?? Why would a larger percentage of my contributions be required to go your direction????.

Never said you owe anything. The people of Texas who pay membership dues and tourney fees do pay you, they pay the PDGA. I stated its reasonable that the PDGA as a corporation (of which it is clear they are) owes it to the membership base, the largest membership base, something for all the moeny we ship to them.


This self centered garbage is really getting old. There is no PDGA corporation period. It is a membership. A club. You pay dues. You are not buying a burger.

Huh? Self centered? Couldn't be further from the truth. The policies I'm advocating will benfit all members. I've stated there should be NT's in all regions of the country in each year, including the South. That serves the greater good of all of the member base.

I'd take the other approach that if 1 state holds 10% of the events (and signifigantly more than any other state) they deserve to reep some rewards from that.
I have no opinion about TX's deserving any special stroking from the PDGA or National Tour. I am merely correcting the_kid's faulty statistical pronouncement.

Per CK's statement, perhaps for more clarity I should have said if stockholders want a new initiative that's beyond the resources and programs already underway, they need to do it themselves or find the resources for the org to do it.

Looks like Texas is being outsmarted by all of those other states running Majors and NTs to get the big money from the PDGA, eh?
Chuck that is counter productive and that isn't the type of attitude or customer service I'd expcet from an organiztion that wants to retain its member base. Instaed you could listen, try to understand my point of view, and have a conversation.

You must be from Minnisota Ehhh?

Per CK's statement, perhaps for more clarity I should have said if stockholders want a new initiative that's beyond the resources and programs already underway, they need to do it themselves or find the resources for the org to do it.
Oh, I see. It's along the lines of "The members toil for the PDGA," not "The PDGA toils for its members." Makes sense now. Makes me think all the harder about Mr. LaGrassa'a fine offer:
If you're so unhappy with the PDGA, then please don't renew next year.

OK. I disagree, but I'll make it simpler for you. I am hosting a disc golf tournament & I want liability insurance for it. Per CK's statement, I need to go out & find it for myself & should not expect the PDGA to do it for me.

Or, how 'bout, I am hosting a disc golf tournament & want some rules to govern the play. Do I need to write them myself (or have them written), or can I rely on the PDGA for that?

Of course not on the rules of play, and the insurance is something we bought as a pooled group effort so everyone doesn't have to do it on its own. We have formed a board and so on to help us out on things. We pool our resources to help fund the efforts. But the overall engine that still makes things go is the volunteer efforts of the members. We haven't turned things over to the point of comparing us to a for profit enterprise like Apple, and in no way would we be able to afford to. There is no staff lounging around waiting just to spring into action and start running tournaments.

We would be closer to the Sierra Club than a for profit venture.

Chuck that is counter productive and that isn't the type of attitude or customer service I'd expcet from an organiztion that wants to retain its member base. Instaed you could listen, try to understand my point of view, and have a conversation.

You must be from Minnisota Ehhh?

So Chuck is now 'the MAN' when it comes to the PDGA? He's the ORG??? Him having an opinion on this board now equates to customer service of the PDGA?

Wow, this is getting demented.

Oh, I see. It's along the lines of "The members toil for the PDGA," not "The PDGA toils for its members." Makes sense now. Makes me think all the harder about Mr. LaGrassa'a fine offer:

No, the PDGA is its members. They are not separate entities. Members who toil to try and move things forward. Some more than others, and unfortunately never quite enough for some who just don't get it.

No, the PDGA is is members. They are not separate entities.
I assume you mean "is its members."

If you really believe that (and it is nearly incomprehensible to me that any sapient being could), why would you ever pay $75 for the privilege of saddling up & carrying along the lesser-toiling members? Why not put your money & toil to better use yourself (for the betterment of the sport, of course)?

It must be the cool bag tag.

Chuck that is counter productive and that isn't the type of attitude or customer service I'd expcet from an organiztion that wants to retain its member base. Instaed you could listen, try to understand my point of view, and have a conversation.

You must be from Minnisota Ehhh?

Actually CK has been having a conversation with you and has answered most of your questions. The problem is you keep asking the same thing and expecting a different answer. I think there is an old proverb/saying about that.

No, the PDGA is is members. They are not separate entities. Members who toil to try and move things forward. Some more than others, and unfortunately never quite enough for some who just don't get it.

I understand your point, and agree with it when it comes to elections, but this is a policy debate on how the PDGA should use resources and set up/promote competition. Policies are not instituted by individual members, they are controlled by the administrators and BOD.

I assume you mean "is its members."

If you really believe that (and it is nearly incomprehensible to me that any sapient being could), why would you ever pay $75 for the privilege of saddling up & carrying along the lesser-toiling members? Why not put your money & toil to better use yourself?

It must be the cool bag tag.

I guess we actually find something positive about being a member. If you don't then why are you hanging around?

Based on those stats I can say the PDGA owes it Texas to make sure there are top tier NT events in this state. We subsidize the PDGA with membership dues and tournament fees more than any other state and deserve to see the fruits of that subsidization.

Your points of argument are laughable. Where do you get your sense of entitlement? Please show me in the membership section where it states that YOU as a member are ENTITLED to an NT event in your area with your $50 membership fee and tournament entry fees?

Instead of bashing the PDGA for not catering to your specific desires, why don't you put in the effort to host an NT in your area and see how supportive the PDGA might be?

I assume you mean "is its members."

If you really believe that (and it is nearly incomprehensible to me that any sapient being could), why would you ever pay $75 for the privilege of saddling up & carrying along the lesser-toiling members? Why not put your money & toil to better use yourself?

It must be the cool bag tag.

Yes I do mean "is its members", thanks for pointing out the typo. I'll correct it.

Yes, I really believe that, and it is discussions like these that make many members wonder whether it is worth it. A belief that what efforts I put in pale in comparison to what others are putting in makes me continue to try and help out what little I can by renewing and volunteering as possible.

But the 'takers' do make many question whether the efforts are worth it. The ones who feel that their $75 makes it their right to make demands of unpaid volunteers. The ones who will beat up on a TD because there wasn't enough spotters, but throw out the 'Oh I just want to play' line when asked to be one.

I understand your point, and agree with it when it comes to elections, but this is a policy debate on how the PDGA should use resources and set up/promote competition. Policies are not instituted by individual members, they are controlled by the administrators and BOD.

And there is a policy concerning what an area needs to do to run an NT. A policy that was developed by the board. But if no one in an area steps up to do so, what would you propose?

If your proposal is PDGA resources are dedicated to hire people to step up and run it for them, I'm sure many areas who currently shoulder the load to pull off an NT would be glad to get in the line once they learn where it starts.

I guess we actually find something positive about being a member. If you don't then why are you hanging around?
If the PDGA were nothing more than a chaotic mob of members toiling away to try to make the sport better without any benefit of having a separate entity to organize, guide, & multiply their efforts, there would be ZERO benefit to joining.

If, however, the PDGA is an entity that can organize, guide, & direct people toward a common goal & provide benefits that 13666 individuals could not negotiate separately, $75 per year might be a bargain.

If one professes to believe the former, I would consider him a fool for wasting his money. Since I believe the latter (notice the verbs can & might be above, not does & is), renewal is a viable option for me to contemplate each year.

"...right to make demands of unpaid volunteers..."

Actually, according to the PDGA 2008 Finance and 2009 Budget sheet, there is a paid staff to the tune of $350,000 per year. Oh, and board members and committees managed to spend about 30 grand.

I hear his argument as "the PDGA should change their "policy" on the NT tour, so saying "get off your butt and follow the policy you disagre with" isn't a persuasive rebuttal.

I've already said that I think Scott's proposal is not workable, AS A POLICY PROPOSAL, which it essentially was. I don't however understand the vitriol slung his way. Why not just say "we understand your sentiment, but the PDGA cannot afford to implement your worthy suggestion." Alternatively, "we understand your suggestion, but it is only workable under a vastly different PDGA tour, we will be reevaluating the tour." Or simply, "Thanks for your input."

I don't get the "You whiny baby, waah waah waaah, entitlement boy" responses.

Why don't we(the pdga) stop paying our Executive director to fly to events to take pictures! I seriously doubt he flew cross country on his own dime to attend NTs just to watch.

Would be enough to pay every NT TD at least a decent chunk right there.

Why don't we(the pdga) stop paying our Executive director to fly to events to take pictures! I seriously doubt he flew cross country on his own dime to attend NTs just to watch.

Would be enough to pay every NT TD at least a decent chunk right there.



I agree for sure! He was at Worlds and USDGC and whenever I saw him out doing something he had his camera.

Get real. Then posts like this show up when no PDGA staffer attends: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=32219&page=2

Get real. Then posts like this show up when no PDGA staffer attends: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=32219&page=2

I doubt it would have happened at any event where men where playing. Now you are starting to sound like Washington. Shifting the spotlight to a completely different situation.

And we still don't know why a summit was planned for the same weekend of the Women's Nationals. I guess you guys knew you didn't need any women in attendance at your SUMMIT.

Juliana, Addie, Lori and Karolyn were at the Summit which is a higher percentage of women attendees than the membership. No PDGA staffer went to the US Masters which is really the 'old boys network' don'tcha think? (and had more players than the USWDGC)

Get real. Then posts like this show up when no PDGA staffer attends: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=32219&page=2

since when does the PDGA care so much about whining from a select few?


maybe some (new) tournaments need PDGA assistance, but established NTs clearly do not need both the ED and a marshal.

I doubt Brian is sleeping on a floor or sharing a hotel 4 ways when he travels to these events. So 4 nights of hotel @ 85 a night lets say, airfare ($400), rental car (50day x 4 days = 200), plus random expenses, means we could be giving NT TDs 1k+ each.

Or we could keep paying someone to go take pictures at our top events, most of which don't even get posted online :(

Why don't we(the pdga) stop paying our Executive director to fly to events to take pictures! I seriously doubt he flew cross country on his own dime to attend NTs just to watch.

Would be enough to pay every NT TD at least a decent chunk right there.

What a joke!

Like it isn't good business practice for an international sports governing body to directly support the members at its bigger events. In addition to taking pictures, the ED is also providing the following support:

Marshal
Rules Official
Daily story and photos for PDGA.com
Feature story and photos for DiscGolfer Magazine
Final round live scoring
Organizational representation at PDGA Major event
Meeting with disc manufacturers
Availability to members, spectators, promoters, volunteers, and media
Recruitment of committee members

All while giving up yet another weekend with his family to work instead. The assertion that the ED wouldn't be thrifty with our members money is absurd.

This thread is ridiculous.

Maybe we could skip the standard cry from the_kid of "gimme a dollar every time you play" and his BS "the SN tour does it better even though they really don't do anything", and all the other PDGA haters who keep renewing for unknown reasons.

After wading through all this exceptionally crappy crap, I have distilled the comments down to one reasonable question. Let's strip away the hyperbole and hater-ade and address that question. I'll state it for y'all. Please create new threads for bashing the ED, the BoD, and some TD in Illinois who actually makes a profit running events while providing good value. We've had a good romp around all the standard bases, so there's no reason to talk about DROT, dope smoking, fairway runups, or any of the other standard topics not already covered in thread drift. Here it is:

Why wasn't there an NT event in Texas in 2009 nor one scheduled for Texas in 2010? Approximately 10% of all PDGA events for calendar year 2009 were held in Texas, so it seems like an omission to not have an NT there. Does anyone know the facts as to why there wasn't one?

Why wasn't there an NT event in Texas in 2009 nor one scheduled for Texas in 2010? Approximately 10% of all PDGA events for calendar year 2009 were held in Texas, so it seems like an omission to not have an NT there. Does anyone know the facts as to why there wasn't one?

Hey, that's a nicely worded question. I think one of the main reasons there is no NT in Texas is because an NT isn't just another tourney. By stepping up to run an NT, you give up a lot of control of your own event even though you still have to run it all yourself. The NT Committee is comprised of the NT TDs and a BoD member or two, or at least it used to be when the NT was first formed and I was paying atention, and that NT Committee agrees to standards and formats and, most importantly/annoyingly, scheduling.

To put it bluntly, to be an NT event you just might not get to choose when your event happens. I think that happend to the usual suspects of Texas Big Time TDs who stepped up for NT duty a few years ago. (I'm pretty sure all you Texans should know who your Big Time TDs are that might actually take on this kind of task. They are the same guys that seem to do everything.)

The NT itself started out with lofty goals and not-very-steely ideals. It was originally intended to be MPO/FPO only, but lashback quickly deteriorated those ideals. The NT Committee still held on to the schedule thing for a while before weakening even more, and I think that's when the Texas TDs decided it wasn't worth it to run an NT. You give up a lot and if being told you have to have a final-9 for video coverage that doesn't show up on "not your chosen weekend" isn't your idea of a good time, then you might see why they decided to pass after a while.

Since the main guys that do everything tried it and didn't like it, there is no one left to step up and try it again. Everyone else, I believe, is waiting for the regular guys who do everything to do it...and they don't want to. And that's fine. They don't have to.

It's actually sad for the whole NT, not just Texas. The NT was supposed to be the showcase series for the best of the best, with a common format and limited divisions. I think Tim Selinske had the right idea in creating a brand new event, the Golden State Classic which no longer exists, to fit the NT paradigm instead of trying to take an existing event with it's own personal and regional flavor and forcing it to conform to the NT standards. I think the whole NT would be in much better shape if all NT TDs could've done this instead of trying to make The Memorial and The Masters Cup and the PFDO and MDGO and Texas States all fit the mold of the NT.

Maybe with the evolution of the NT into "just another series of A-tiers", maybe if someone in Texas were willing to try it again, I could see a tourney like the VPO going to the NT Committe and saying, "we'd like in, but we'd have to keep our current weekend and we're going to use our normal format" and they might get approved. But the VPO TD and club would have to want that first, and it's up to you Texas guys to convince them to want it.

Personally, I don't see the draw for signing up for the extra work when an event is running well already.

Simple answer. No bid received.

For what it's worth, when the NT first started, the plan was for a regionally balanced tour that flowed nicely around the country for travelers. That concept ground to a halt over the first few years since no national sponsor was landed. Since very little added money was available to fund the tour stops with sufficient added cash and thus have some control over the sites and timing, the PDGA was forced to revert to asking for bids from host teams willing to meet the guidelines. Just another form of, "He who has the gold makes the rules" or in this case, defines the route.

What a joke!

Like it isn't good business practice for an international sports governing body to directly support the members at its bigger events. In addition to taking pictures, the ED is also providing the following support:

Marshal what does the ED have to do with the marshal being there?
Rules Official shouldn't the marshal and TDs be enough for this?
Daily story and photos for PDGA.com why not pay someone local to do this?
Feature story and photos for DiscGolfer Magazine why not pay someone local to do this?
Final round live scoring shouldn't NTs have plenty of staff for this?
Organizational representation at PDGA Major event
Meeting with disc manufacturers to do what that couldn't be handled via email?
Availability to members, spectators, promoters, volunteers, and media
Recruitment of committee members seems to be doing a pretty poor job of this imo



All while giving up yet another weekend with his family to work instead. The assertion that the ED wouldn't be thrifty with our members money is absurd.
OH MAN HE HAS TO WORK ON A WEEKEND! WHAT A TOUGH LIFE!


give me a break Jeff.

Simple answer. No bid received.

For what it's worth, when the NT first started, the plan was for a regionally balanced tour that flowed nicely around the country for travelers. That concept ground to a halt over the first few years since no national sponsor was landed. Since very little added money was available to fund the tour stops with sufficient added cash and thus have some control over the sites and timing, the PDGA was forced to revert to asking for bids from host teams willing to meet the guidelines. Just another form of, "He who has the gold makes the rules" or in this case, defines the route.

I am the TD of the VPO, and I am getting a little tired of the "nobody is willing to step up" argument. I inquired about the possibility of making the VPO a NT level event for 2010 and was met with criticisms from both the tour manager and a few pros as well. I think it was David Gentry who told me that they would be unlikely to be willing to extend the season into late Oct/early Nov. A couple of pros also had a good point, that the USDGC as the last major of the year, is kind of like the end of the season, so it doesn't make sense to have another smaller event afterward. I know USDGC is not NT, but that was the logic.

I don't have a problem with any of the issues they discussed, but I would like for everyone to please stop with the statements that we never bothered to try. Rhett had a good point--it wasn't worth trying to reshape a 20 year old event to fit the NT model, so we will just continue as one of the highest-paying SuperTour events every year and be just fine with that. Just look at the pre-registration for this year's event and I think it is clear that people will show up when the course and event is good, and the money is there, regardless of the official sanctioning level.

No need to apologize nor be defensive. You're not on the hot seat here. VPO is a great event and will hopefully continue that way. No one should expect you to create a new event during the NT season when you already contribute for the benefit of the top players in your own way.

Juliana, Addie, Lori and Karolyn were at the Summit which is a higher percentage of women attendees than the membership. No PDGA staffer went to the US Masters which is really the 'old boys network' don'tcha think? (and had more players than the USWDGC)]

I'm sorry, I was wrong, but don't a couple of those ladies work for the PDGA, serving our membership, which is mostly men? j/k ;)

No need to apologize nor be defensive. You're not on the hot seat here. VPO is a great event and will hopefully continue that way. No one should expect you to create a new event during the NT season when you already contribute for the benefit of the top players in your own way.

Heh, not so much defensive, but lazy. It was more convenient than answering the 10-15 PMs saying "Dude why don't you make it a NT event next year? C'mon, you should step it up!"

Heh, not so much defensive, but lazy. It was more convenient than answering the 10-15 PMs saying "Dude why don't you make it a NT event next year? C'mon, you should step it up!"

I hope I didn't offend you or any other hard-working Texas mover TDs. :)

I was just trying to make a point, and that point being that Texas is no doubt like most other areas: a dedicated few make most everything happen for the masses. When an NT event doesn't make sense for those few, the masses sit around and wait for the few to do it. For there to be an NT in Texas either someone new has to step up to make it happen, or else some new blood has to step up to convince one of the movers-and-shakers to make it happen.

It obviously doesn't make sense to do it right now or else the movers-and-shakers would already be doing it.

Don't let the "gimme a dollar everytime you play a round" guys drive a wedge between us all. I think you guys kick arse with all the courses and great events you have over there.

I suspect the only wedge being driven was in your mind. Most folks over here can listen to a differing opinion and move on.

I hope I didn't offend you or any other hard-working Texas mover TDs. :)

I was just trying to make a point, and that point being that Texas is no doubt like most other areas: a dedicated few make most everything happen for the masses. When an NT event doesn't make sense for those few, the masses sit around and wait for the few to do it. For there to be an NT in Texas either someone new has to step up to make it happen, or else some new blood has to step up to convince one of the movers-and-shakers to make it happen.

It obviously doesn't make sense to do it right now or else the movers-and-shakers would already be doing it.

Don't let the "gimme a dollar everytime you play a round" guys drive a wedge between us all. I think you guys kick arse with all the courses and great events you have over there.

No offense taken. I think what you said is fairly accurate and valid. I just wanted to respond to everyone who keeps asking me why I don't spend MORE time and effort on the VPO than I already do.

I hope I didn't offend you or any other hard-working Texas mover TDs. :)

I was just trying to make a point, and that point being that Texas is no doubt like most other areas: a dedicated few make most everything happen for the masses. When an NT event doesn't make sense for those few, the masses sit around and wait for the few to do it. For there to be an NT in Texas either someone new has to step up to make it happen, or else some new blood has to step up to convince one of the movers-and-shakers to make it happen.

It obviously doesn't make sense to do it right now or else the movers-and-shakers would already be doing it.

Don't let the "gimme a dollar everytime you play a round" guys drive a wedge between us all. I think you guys kick arse with all the courses and great events you have over there.


What you really have to look out for is the "give us $3 and we promise we will put it to good use" guys. Cali life must be making you people cranky nowadays.

Rhett, I can't beleive you waded through all of the pages - you must not have gotten Rock Band Van Halen yet to give you something better to do. I sure couldn't read through all the drivel. But we came to similar conclusions: Yeah, it seems like Texas should have an NT, since it's so **** big. But it's a lot of work, and someone needs to have incentive to do all that extra work...and you obviously understand from experience how that incentive dissipates amid the long volunteer hours and the whiny pros. And trying to shoehorn an already successful event, with it's unique format, preferred schedule and favorite sponsors into a different spot on the calendar won't work in most cases.

Texas, if you want an NT for 2011 (yes 2011) start working on it now. Recognize that big events take time to plan and organize. Recognize that YOU have to do the work - that the PDGA does not have the resources to spend a year or two organizing your big event. And please stop using the NFL, PGA or NASCAR as examples with which to compare the PDGA. Geez, the whole NT Open purse is probably equal to what a Detroit Lions backup lineman gets paid for a few games, or the last guy who makes the cut at a PGA event, or the guy who blows his engine 2/3 of the way through a NASCAR race - the comparison is ludicrous.

Start early, get a team together that understands the long haul ahead, and find your sponsor. Please. We all want you to succeed. But don't expect someone else to do it for you.

well, I love the idea of having a tram of PDGA that travels to enhance tournys. I would be willing to pay double or triple my renewal Fee if this was a possibility. Im not speaking for everyone. Bit im really excited about a NT tour growing and would love to see Texas have one, and would love to see a nation wide flow to it for travle purposes. And yes as a member Im willing to pay for that. I would atleast like to see the PDGA try and come up with ideas to help grow the "TOUR". and I think its worth paying for if they would want to do something like this???

Im all about supporting the PDGA or whoever to grow a TOUR.

well and props to all of us discgolfers...we are getting there. Yes i really want to see Texas do better since we are so big we have no ecxuse between Houston, Dallas and Austin why we cant all come together and pitch in to throw a huge event. Lazyness and a lack of communication skills between cities. But im excited with exposure liek Tigerwoods 2010 golf....that will and can help gain sponsors for us. I can see EA sports coming on board if we can all buy the game and support them. Also Acedemy sports has done a great job of selling disc and has grown there inventory. I can also see this becoming a potential title sponsor. I see a good future for DG, i just hope Texas can get their ducks in a row and and learn to call each other and get in on this.

well, I love the idea of having a tram of PDGA that travels to enhance tournys.I would be willing to pay double or triple my renewal Fee if this was a possibility. Im not speaking for everyone. Bit im really excited about a NT tour growing and would love to see Texas have one, and would love to see a nation wide flow to it for travle purposes. And yes as a member Im willing to pay for that. I would atleast like to see the PDGA try and come up with ideas to help grow the "TOUR". and I think its worth paying for if they would want to do something like this???

Im all about supporting the PDGA or whoever to grow a TOUR.

THREAD DRIFT ALERT!!!!!


Good luck doubling or tripling the PDGA renewal fee so 98% of the membership can each pay an extra $100 or $150 PER YEAR to help 2% have a "TOUR".

BACK TO THE SUBJECT

It sounds more like the entitled players in Texas want a USDGC qualifier.Texas already has several large events that rival NT's in attendance and pay. Wrapping one of these up with an NT label won't magically make it better (although it would make an automatic USDGC qualifier). Look into making Texas States a USDGC qualifier or elevate another event that takes place in the correct time frame.

If you all in Texas are unwilling to compromise, change your schedule or elevate an event, you get what you get. It is not up to the PDGA to throw money or resources your way, nor the USDGC to change their qualifying time frame to accommodate you. While it may be too late for 2010, you all have plenty of time to get it right in 2011. I really don't want to read about this again next October.

There was some confusion in earlier posts equating NTs with USDGC Qualifier. I'd think having a USDGC Qualifier in the area would be more important to local players. This year Tulsa held one; not in Texas, certainly a long drive for many Texas, but closer than the nearest NT. I'm too lazy to look, but I think someone posted that for 2010 a Texas tournament is negotiating to be a USDGC Qualifier.

I'll muddy the water further and point out that the PDGA is a member organization with a broad range of members and members interests to address. I wonder how many really care about the NT? Most members are Ams, and I suspect many or most do not care, or at least to the degree to want the PDGA to divert resources to it. (Which is not say the PDGA shouldn't---presumably everything the PDGA does will please some members, while certain others could care less).

Personally, I think the NT is an idea whose time has not yet come. Disc Golf hasn't reached the critical mass for a large national sponsor which would hold a big enough carrot to convince TDs to change their events or create new events to meet a true tour standard. In the meantime, we have more "Majors" than I can name, to the degree that the Majors are sort of a National Tour. It seems all Majors are not created equal; a few, perhaps just Worlds and USDGC, command more attention and attraction. These almost function as "Super Majors", and the NT is something of a 3rd-tier of events.

None of which I intend as a criticism. God Bless those who have worked hard on the NT, both nationally and locally. They're certainly doing more for disc golf than I am. But I, for one, don't care much whether there's an NT within 100 miles of me, or none within 1,000.

There was some confusion in earlier posts equating NTs with USDGC Qualifier. I'd think having a USDGC Qualifier in the area would be more important to local players......

I'll muddy the water further and point out that the PDGA is a member organization with a broad range of members and members interests to address. I wonder how many really care about the NT? Most members are Ams, and I suspect many or most do not care, or at least to the degree to want the PDGA to divert resources to it. (Which is not say the PDGA shouldn't---presumably everything the PDGA does will please some members, while certain others could care less).

Personally, I think the NT is an idea whose time has not yet come. Disc Golf hasn't reached the critical mass for a large national sponsor which would hold a big enough carrot to convince TDs to change their events or create new events to meet a true tour standard. In the meantime, we have more "Majors" than I can name, to the degree that the Majors are sort of a National Tour. It seems all Majors are not created equal; a few, perhaps just Worlds and USDGC, command more attention and attraction. These almost function as "Super Majors", and the NT is something of a 3rd-tier of events.

None of which I intend as a criticism. God Bless those who have worked hard on the NT, both nationally and locally. They're certainly doing more for disc golf than I am. But I, for one, don't care much whether there's an NT within 100 miles of me, or none within 1,000.

Resisting the urge to respond, but I think this is exaclty spot on. Especially, "
Personally, I think the NT is an idea whose time has not yet come. Disc Golf hasn't reached the critical mass for a large national sponsor which would hold a big enough carrot to convince TDs to change their events or create new events to meet a true tour standard.
"

I think that is the biggest problem. If we had a sponsor that came in to every city and gave a check for a $10,000 add-in, all the TD's would gladly welcome their requests. Until that time, TD's work way to hard to listen to people that are not there locally to instruct on how to create an event. Most places in today's arena that run large events, have people that have been running them or helping for several decades now. Its tough to change, and when we really have very little added dollars to incentivize that TD, why change?

We are all people of habit, we must break the habit to make it work, and you must work to make change, no one NO ONE else is going to do it but you. To ask the PDGA (an office of 5 people for close to 1,000 yearly events to monitor mind you) to come in and run an event is silly. They have enough problems getting all the registration in, events listed, and fighting electronic gremlins to keep our sport standardized, now you want them to spend the little time they have on getting Texas to have an NT?

Really?

The NT needs more sponsorship on a national level the PDGA should be working on that and media relations within the municipalities that have these large events (NT, SuperTour, Majors), work it out locally and watch it grow locally before it can go national.

Texas folks, need to just realize that the Texas Pride you have for your state, may not warrant the pride that people have for events. You can't force a system to change by one state, it takes an entire organization to change it, and the USDGC, well thats an Innova thing, so you have to change their mind.

Best of luck, but don't hate the people offering to make the event continue because your mad you don't have one in your backyard. If it is that important to you, you will travel, and spend money.....if you support your local club and for that matter (EVERY STATE PDGA COORDINATOR GIVES 1 SPOT TO THE USDGC) work witht he state rep, you will get to play in Winthrop.

Hate the NT because it doesn't stop in texas.........wow, I will just reserve my other comments, but really, WOW......

shouldn't this thread be under "other pdga topics" i don't see any actual tourney info. i do see a bunch of people getting worked up into a lather. not sure i see any big difference between an NT and a supertour other than they are always USDGC qualifiers. Surely texas has USDGC qualifiers. IF not that is between the TD's in texas and the USDGC folks. I'm not sure i particularly love the distribution of USDGC qualifiers, but that has nothing to do with the PDGA.

carry on....

and BTW, is lagrassa now the official voice and defender of all things PDGA? Just askin is all.

shouldn't this thread be under "other pdga topics" i don't see any actual tourney info. i do see a bunch of people getting worked up into a lather. not sure i see any big difference between an NT and a supertour other than they are always USDGC qualifiers. Surely texas has USDGC qualifiers. IF not that is between the TD's in texas and the USDGC folks. I'm not sure i particularly love the distribution of USDGC qualifiers, but that has nothing to do with the PDGA.

carry on....

and BTW, is lagrassa now the official voice and defender of all things PDGA? Just askin is all.


Yes Texas has ONE spot...............like every other state.

full list of qualifiers is not even out yet.

full list of qualifiers is not even out yet.



Ok then, TX has had ONE spot the past two maybe 3 years......................and so far we haven't heard anything through the rumor mill about getting one this year even though I'm pretty sure this was brought up sometime last year.

Ok then, TX has had ONE spot the past two maybe 3 years......................and so far we haven't heard anything through the rumor mill about getting one this year even though I'm pretty sure this was brought up sometime last year.

While we are on the topic of USDGC qualifiers--does anyone know who at Innova is in charge of making this decision? Is it Dave, Harold, or someone else?