During the Final 9 of the New York State Championships Scott (a fake name) played from another disc that had been forgotten on the course while a random player was warming up. Scott had not used a mini so he had not picked up the disc to see that his name was not on it, after he had shot he picked it up an realized his mistake. After Scott had realized his error he told the group and he finished out the hole from the original lie and finished out the hole from the mistaken shot both resulting in a score of 3. Scott's father was trying to make the case that because it was a random disc and not some one's disc that was playing the course that it wasn't a lie. The LARGE majority of the officails at the tournament agreed that it was Scott's responsibility to ensure that he was shooting from his own disc and he should be assesed the 2 stroke penalty.

Tensions were deffinetly high as these two players were at the top of the open division playing for the USDGC spot and the 800 dollars. Scott lost by one stroke and this would have made the difference for him.

It's only a practice throw if you don't play from your lie or another active player's lie. Since he threw from the "casual object" (disc) on the course and didn't continue playing from it (until apparently calling a provisional sequence), he should have just gotten the practice throw and ended up with a 4.

He needs to score his play from his original lie plus a one throw penalty for the "practice throw". The infringement is the extra throw and the penalty for that is one stroke. So, if he holed out from his original lie for a two, then add the penalty for a circle-3.

What rule was used to decide on a two stroke penalty?

Probably playing from another player's lie, but what differentiates this situation from that of a player marking their lie, moving their disc aside, moving away while waiting for their turn, then putting from the disc instead of the mini?

In all of these cases that have come up on the message board, the player's intention of playing from a real lie has trumped the practice throw and the call (or lack thereof) has been a stance violation. I say lack of call because it was not called in time to be valid.

Yes, I believe it was playing from a nother players lie that was the ruling used.

what happens if with the correct call this person would have tied for the USDGC spot... do they have any recourse if the TD doesn't want to give in?

So with a stance violation call (or in most of these cases a non-call untill later), if it's not called within 3 seconds Scott should have continued playing from the "warm-up player's" disc. And even though Scott stopped play to alert the group there is a problem, he gets to continue play with no re-throw or penalty/warning.

It just doesn't seem right or logical that someone who commits such a bone-head play receives no kind of penalty. The practice throw ruling at least nets the offender some kind of penalty for their lack of "keeping their head in the game".

what happens if with the correct call this person would have tied for the USDGC spot... do they have any recourse if the TD doesn't want to give in?State coordinator invitations are awarded at the discretion of the state coordinator.

The problem is that rules punish the player that tries to do the right thing...
Throw from another player's lie: +2
Throw from a random lie, realize it, but play it out: no-call, warning for foot fault (if within 3sec), or warning for violation of marking rule.
Throw from a random lie, realize it, and attempt to correct the mistake, +1 for practice throw.

playing from the random lie and completing the hole would fall under failure to play the course correctly (2 strokes), would it not?

IMO That's what it should be (+2). But most of the rulings have been that it is just a really bad stance violation unless you happen to use a live disc for another player.

Here's the thread from a couple of years ago:
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=26137

Because lord knows that no disc golfer should be held responsible for any obvious mistake that they make. Therefore in the spirit of "getting over" all efforts should be made to not assess the one stroke practice throw penalty that the player fully earned in this scenario.

I agree that a 2 stroke penalty is incorrect and that a 1 stroke penalty is correct according to our current rules. A stance violation in this case is absoutely stupid and IMHO anyone, including the Rules Commitee, should be issued a 3 month suspension from the PDGA for even suggesting that a stance violation could possibly be called here!

(What I think, and not what the rules say) If it is caught before a subsequent throw then, +1 should be added to the score, play from the correct lie. If it is caught later, then play it as if that was the correct lie, +2.

If a stance violation can be called in this case, then when do you ever have a practice throw?

When the throw was not made to advance the lie.

Seems to me this is a scenario that is not specifically covered by the rules. Reading the definition of "lie", this is not a lie, so it cannot be another player's lie. Perhaps 803.10 should be retitled from "another player's lie" to "the wrong lie". Alternatively, "wrong lie" could be added to 801.04. Nonetheless, I think 803.10 is the closest rule and 2 strokes is appropriate. I know this gives smart people who know better a distinct advantage, but that's how natural selection works, at least in golf.

since he caught it immediately and only completed the hole provisionally from that "lie" i would go with the shot from the bad lie being a practice stroke. had he completed the hole sans provisionals- 2 strokes. rule should be rewritten a tad to make for a uniform 2 stroke penalty imo.

I believe the ruling on the field was incorrect. The disc at which the player threw from was not an established lie of another player since the disc was not in play. Player should have been assessed a one penalty stroke for a practice shot since he caught the error before completion of the hole. If the mistake was caught after completing the hole, player should be assessed a two penalty stroke.

I think this part of the rules may need some tweeking. If a player unintentionally throws from another player's lie they get a 2 penalty stroke. However, if the player intentionally throws a shot from any other position besides his lie, he gets a 1 penalty stroke for a practice shot.

I have a related question... "Scott" wanted to play from his disc, without marking it, which is completely his choice (maybe he was behind a tree and needed the extra swinging room). So he thought, that he is not allowed to pick up the disc or otherwise move it.

So here's my question, are you allowed to mark your disc with a mini, pick it up to check the name (or wipe it off, for arguments sake) then replace the disc, and proceed to throw from the disc. As somebody already mentioned, this is 100% legal in ball golf.

The rules say all discs must be marked. This is obviously so you can tell who's disc is who's, and prevent this unfortunate situation. So why wouldn't you be allowed to look for that mark without a penalty?

You can pick up a disc to identify it (803.07.C). The rules say nothing about marking it in this process.

If I was to pick up a disc to identify it I would think that marking it would be the appropriate thing to do to ensure it was put back in the exact same place, the alternative just picking it up looking at it then putting it back might result in the lie being changed albeit a small change, which is a big deal.

I have a related question... "Scott" wanted to play from his disc, without marking it, which is completely his choice (maybe he was behind a tree and needed the extra swinging room). So he thought, that he is not allowed to pick up the disc or otherwise move it.

So here's my question, are you allowed to mark your disc with a mini, pick it up to check the name (or wipe it off, for arguments sake) then replace the disc, and proceed to throw from the disc. As somebody already mentioned, this is 100% legal in ball golf.

The rules say all discs must be marked. This is obviously so you can tell who's disc is who's, and prevent this unfortunate situation. So why wouldn't you be allowed to look for that mark without a penalty?It would make sense to allow this, but the current rules do not allow it.

The marking rule says:

"A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker." So, if you want to go mini-optional, you have to not touch or reposition the thrown disc.

The rule Krupicka is thinking of says,

"C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official."

This lets you pick up a disc to identify it, and not incur the two-throw penalty, but it does not let you place it back down and go mini-optional.

Finally, the easy way to avoid this unfortunate situation is to write your name or identifying mark on both sides of the disc. There is no rule against that.

Finally, the easy way to avoid this unfortunate situation is to write your name or identifying mark on both sides of the disc. There is no rule against that.


Yeah, I thought of that (as I'm shure many players do), but you just don't see it too often. Champ Discs are translucent, that helps too.


"C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official."

This lets you pick up a disc to identify it, and not incur the two-throw penalty, but it does not let you place it back down and go mini-optional.


so are you interpreting the rule as you can pick up the disc, check the name, and put it back down, but you CAN"T do this using a mini for 'replacement accuracy'?


What say you, Chuck Kennedy?

Take a look at post #2

so are you interpreting the rule as you can pick up the disc, check the name, and put it back down, but you CAN"T do this using a mini for 'replacement accuracy'? No, I'm interpretting the rule to say that if you pick it up to check the name on the back, you cannot then play from behind the disc instead of using a mini.

And I'm not really interpretting the rule. I'm just quoting what it says. The marking rule says:

"A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker."

So, if you want to go mini-optional, you have to not touch or reposition the thrown disc. Once you've touched or repositioned the disc, if it turns out to be yours, you have to mark with a mini.

okay, I understand you Bruce, and that makes sense. What I saw was this...

803.07 C
Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or
obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a
competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty
throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.


This doesn't refer to you and your own disc though. So does that mean somebody else could have picked up "Scott's" disc to check the name, and put it back with no penalty?


How do I suggest to the rules committee that a player should be allowed to mark their disc with a mini, pick it up (to identify it or otherwise), then replace the disc behind the mini, and proceed to play from behind the disc. I'd still like to know for sure if this is specifically allowed or not allowed, and if not, why not? It's kind of fuzzy.

Further more 803.07 A says:

The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw.


So are the other players then required to play from the marker? or can they replace the disc and play behind it. After all, it wasn't their choice to mark with mini.

How do I suggest to the rules committee that a player should be allowed to mark their disc with a mini, pick it up (to identify it or otherwise), then replace the disc behind the mini, and proceed to play from behind the disc.
The reason for the rule was speed of play. Reaching down to mark your lie, pick up the disc to look at it, and replace it while picking up the mini would defeat the purpose of allowing no mini in the first place. At least if you mark the lie with a mini to look at your disc, then the process wouldn't be any slower than normal.

The away player may require other players to mark their lies or move their equipment before making a throw if the player believes that either could interfere with his or her throw.
If the thrown disc is defined as "the lie" by a player meaning it is flat on the playing surface, another player cannot ask that it be moved. Note that a thrown disc that is resting on the basket, in a bush or tipped up leaning on something cannot be a lie. In which case, another player could ask that it be marked since the player would have to mark it anyway and not play using that thrown disc as the marker.

Chuck, where does it say that a disc tipped up leaning on something cannot be a lie? If a player wants to play from behind a tombstoned disc, there's nothing in the rules that they must mark it.

Seems like if your disc is touching the playing surface, you've got a "lie". I don't recall seeing anything that says your disc must be flat on the ground.

okay, I understand you Bruce, and that makes sense. What I saw was this...

803.07 C
Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or
obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a
competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty
throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.


This doesn't refer to you and your own disc though. So does that mean somebody else could have picked up "Scott's" disc to check the name, and put it back with no penalty?


How do I suggest to the rules committee that a player should be allowed to mark their disc with a mini, pick it up (to identify it or otherwise), then replace the disc behind the mini, and proceed to play from behind the disc. I'd still like to know for sure if this is specifically allowed or not allowed, and if not, why not? It's kind of fuzzy.Yes. Somebody else can pick up Scott's disc to identify it.

If you hover on PDGA HQ above, the drop down list includes "Contact". Click on that. Then click on Rules Committee and you have an e-mail window ready to send your suggestion to the rules committee.

Meanwhile, suggest to Scott that he put his name on both sides of the disc.

Chuck, where does it say that a disc tipped up leaning on something cannot be a lie? If a player wants to play from behind a tombstoned disc, there's nothing in the rules that they must mark it.
There's a difference between a disc flat on the ground which can definitely be a lie that another player could not ask to be marked. However, if a disc is not flat on the playing surface (even a tombstone), there would be justification for another player to ask that player to mark it. Technically, I'm not sure the RC has defined what "above the playing surface" means so it's gray. If any part of the disc is touching the playing surface, does that mean it's "on" the playing surface or still considered "above" it?

in an effort to be 100% clear, as is usually the case on this forum:

So I am not allowed to mark with mini, pick up and identify disc, replace.

If I approach what I believe to be my disc, and I do not wish to mark it, I am not allowed to pick it up and identify it, with or without marking it. However, I must have another player come over, pick up the disc to identify it without marking it, then replace it, with no penalty to anyone.

How does this save time? If speed of play is the issue.... mark with mini, identify, replace, pick up mini, totals about 1.7 seconds. If this were allowed, I would gladly do so, and have 28 seconds remaining to throw. Especially if penalty strokes are on the line.

Try writing your name on both sides of the disc. It can be done. I've done it. I know.

Something that should be required in the rules update is a disc be "uniquely marked" on both sides.

Something that should be required in the rules update is a disc be "uniquely marked" on both sides.


...or in the alternative, allow the mark - ID - replace procedure.

Simpler would be to change the marking rule to remove "touching or" from 803.03.A

...A player may instead choose, without {dele:touching or} repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker.

The disc could then be identified and replaced. A new lie chosen due to OB or other rules that require repositioning would still require a marker. In addition, flipping your disc to use as a marker would still be invalid.

That's a good idea, but there will be interpretations of "repositioning" that include picking up the disc to ID it, even if it is put back in the same spot. History shows that there are so many disc golfers that need to be told exactly what to do or BS interpretations will be rampant. The rule should go on to specifically allow picking up the disc for ID purposes after marking it with a mini, and that as long as the disc is placed back behind the mini, the mini can be picked up.

This is a prime example of how to over-complicate the rules to address a very low probability scenario. Besides, the current rules already address this situation perfectly well.


If speed of play means something to you AND double checking your thrown disc is so all fired important, take a few seconds BEFORE your next round to put marks on the tops of your discs. This way you never have to lift your disc to identify it and you ALWAYS have the option to mark your lie or not. Plus, you will never have to ask your card mates for help in identifying your own disc.



On another note, to check to see who a thrown disc belongs to, couldn't you just tilt the disc up (even over) while leaving the front edge on the ground? Or is this just common sense cluttering up the "complex" situation some have developed here?

When I'm checking who might own a disc on the ground, I do exactly that: tilt up the disc to check the mark. I wouldn't want to complicate the rule by implying that one must pull out a mini to identify a disc.

When I'm checking who might own a disc on the ground, I do exactly that: tilt up the disc to check the mark. I wouldn't want to complicate the rule by implying that one must pull out a mini to identify a disc.


Would you do anything different if you were trying to determine if the disc was yours?

I usually can identify mine without looking on the underside, but I would do the same thing. Guess, I'll need to make sure I use a mini if I peeked at the bottom.

I started marking the top of my discs to identify from others without moving the disc. I think this is the simpler way to avoid any issues. I think it is extremely rare to misidentify your disc, (not to say it doesn't happen), but marking on top alleviates any confusion.

I think in the extreme rarity of situations, a player could tilt and look under the disc without moving it from its exact location for the purposes of identification. I think we need to look at the underlying intent and realize the player is not intending to relocate his disc, but to identify the disc. If it continues to be an issue in the round, then I would tell the player to mark the top of his disc. I'm finding that between most if not all groups, players are willing to come to a consensus on the intent of a player's actions and to determine if it resulted in unfair play. More attention should be focused on the play and spirit of the game, than these slight nuances in the rules.

Besides, the way I read the rules, 803.07C, allows a player to look at a disc with the INTENT to identify the disc without penalty so long as the player does not change the location of the disc. Tilting it up slightly and looking under is probably the 2nd best method for identification. First is to mark on top.

yes yes, mark both sides, thank you all 87 people who felt the need to say that instead of answering my questions. I thought of that too. The thread has moved beyond that. Now it is about removing senseless rules, clarifying existing good rules, or adding a necessary rule, so that we may have a clear and concise rulebook. I think that is what the rules thread is for.

Many people say "lets just have rules in plain english, other sports don't have this problem". Well, yes they do, it just may be to a lesser extent because they've been around for 400 years (ball golf) and have gone through the refining process for a long time.


I maintain that it should be allowed to mark with mini, pick up, and replace. Here is another scenario: I don't want to mark with mini, but I want to use that same disc. Why not allow mark with mini, pick up disc A, replace with disc B in the same spot, throw Disc A.

I know many people are going to say tough luck and its a ridiculous scenario. I am not a proponent of one way or the other (in regards to switching discs), just trying to spark discussion.

I maintain that it should be allowed to mark with mini, pick up, and replace. Here is another scenario: I don't want to mark with mini, but I want to use that same disc. Why not allow mark with mini, pick up disc A, replace with disc B in the same spot, throw Disc A. I know many people are going to say tough luck and its a ridiculous scenario. I am not a proponent of one way or the other (in regards to switching discs), just trying to spark discussion. You bring up a valid point in regards to the rules, and I have asked this question myself. If I want to use the same disc just thrown, but not mark my lie in front of the disc, how should I proceed? This is an extremely rare situation and I don't think the rules should be written to cover every single scenario. I think good judgment and communication with your group will ultimately allow the changing of the discs without any problem. As long as the players in your group watch you place the new disc in the same exact location as the previous disc, I don't find this to be a problem.

I understand some people will say this is not in the rules. But again, the underlying factors come into play in rule decision, and the purpose of the rules in place is to prevent a player from relocating their lie to possibly gain an advantage of a new lie. As long as you communicate your intent to the group and they witness your action and agree to the location of the newly placed disc, then move forward, play on, and keep the spirit of play always in mind.

I started putting my name on the top and phone number on the bottom several years ago after I heard that seasoned tournament player Micah Dorius took a 2 stroke penalty at a DeLaveaga tourney for playing the wrong disc. I figured if a stud like that could make this mistage, anyone else including me could also.


I'm not clear what the issue is in this discussion. Either you know its your disc and you have the option to mark or play behind the thrown disc, or you aren't sure its yours so you have to mark it.

What's the big deal?

By not marking it you are invoking the alleged "speed of play" rule, but if you don't know if its your disc or not then speed has been negated so you should mark it. 'nuff said.

Unless you guys are now agreeing with me that the option of not marking is not a "speed of play" enhancement and is just yet another way to make the game easier because now it actually takes longer to evaluate if you have a better lie with a mini or the thrown disc!

If I want to use the same disc just thrown, but not mark my lie in front of the disc, how should I proceed? This is an extremely rare situation and I don't think the rules should be written to cover every single scenario. I think good judgment and communication with your group will ultimately allow the changing of the discs without any problem. As long as the players in your group watch you place the new disc in the same exact location as the previous disc, I don't find this to be a problem.

I understand some people will say this is not in the rules. But again, the underlying factors come into play in rule decision, and the purpose of the rules in place is to prevent a player from relocating their lie to possibly gain an advantage of a new lie. As long as you communicate your intent to the group and they witness your action and agree to the location of the newly placed disc, then move forward, play on, and keep the spirit of play always in mind.

The "spirit of the rule" was speed of play, and I believe was intended for inside the circle and within a few feet of the basket. Your scenario is against the rules and should not be condoned. What you are suggesting and/or doing is one of the biggest problems we have in PDGA sanctioned competition: a non-level playing field. You are changing a well-written rule and doing what it prohibits while others in your division are playing by the rules and suffering a disadvantage.

One of the problems with replacing the thrown disc with another disc would be people like my who carry a Zephyr. If I replace my thrown disc with my Zephyr I might get a couple more inches of clearance around an obstacle. Rhett is right. The purpose of being able to throw behind your thrown disc rather than a marker is speed of play. If you want to throw the disc on the ground, you have to mark it and play behind the marker. The rules are pretty clear, if you touch or reposition your thrown disc, you must use a marker.

One of the problems with replacing the thrown disc with another disc would be people like my who carry a Zephyr. If I replace my thrown disc with my Zephyr I might get a couple more inches of clearance around an obstacle. Rhett is right. The purpose of being able to throw behind your thrown disc rather than a marker is speed of play. If you want to throw the disc on the ground, you have to mark it and play behind the marker. The rules are pretty clear, if you touch or reposition your thrown disc, you must use a marker. Maybe I'm not understanding you about the Zephyr. I though your supposed to place the marker directly in front of the disc crossing the line of play. So if I place the Zephyr with the front edge exactly as the previous disc, I don't see how this changes the lie. Now this opens up more what-if scenarios. There is a huge tree in front of a players disc, and it is impossible to place a marker in front of the thrown disc. However, the player wants to throw the same disc. Now what does he do?

If you are talking about replacing the thrown disc, the Zephyr is larger which would then move the back edge further back.

If you are talking about replacing the thrown disc, the Zephyr is larger which would then move the back edge further back. Duh, now I get it, the light turns on, lol. Okay then, I'm completely retracting my prior post. I do see how this could be taken advantage of and I stand corrected (all my discs are the same size in diameter, so this scenario never dawned on me). If you want to throw the same disc, you have to mark it, period.

Do you still get a 30cm stance behind both the mini-marker or the disc on the ground used as a marker?

The "spirit of the rule" was speed of play, and I believe was intended for inside the circle and within a few feet of the basket. Your scenario is against the rules and should not be condoned. What you are suggesting and/or doing is one of the biggest problems we have in PDGA sanctioned competition: a non-level playing field. You are changing a well-written rule and doing what it prohibits while others in your division are playing by the rules and suffering a disadvantage.
Krupicka convinced me why the rule is as is, so I completely retract my statement. I do see how it could be taking advantage of, and therefore a player has to leave the disc there, or mark it and pick it up, no replacing the discs.

Do you still get a 30cm stance behind both the mini-marker or the disc on the ground used as a marker?

Yes.

Ok, now we're having a good discussion. After reading several opinions I agree, that replacing the disc with a different disc should not be allowed. (it is in ball golf, but those are all the same size).

So anyone have an opinion on marking with mini, picking up for ID, and replacing the same disc. ?
I know, I know, mark it on both sides. Maybe I don't see so well, I can't see the mark without reading glasses.

FYI - I don't believe you can replace a golf ball except on the green because it might change how the ball sits in the grass, trap or hazard.

Being able to use your thrown disc as the marker does slightly speed play but in a way it's a "cheat" because it can make a slight difference in angle or clearance from obstacles upon throwing. The trade-off is not being able to use your thrown disc if you decide to use this option OR decide not to mark both sides of the disc.

The rule about placing a unique mark on your disc did not need to specify both sides when it was originally written because using your thrown disc as the mark was not allowed. You had to or could place a mini to pick up and identify the disc if needed. When the option for using the thrown disc as a mark was added, marking both sides of discs should have been added but was probably not considered at the time.

Being able to use your thrown disc as the marker does slightly speed play but in a way it's a "cheat" because it can make a slight difference in angle or clearance from obstacles upon throwing. The trade-off is not being able to use your thrown disc if you decide to use this option OR decide not to mark both sides of the disc.

The rule about placing a unique mark on your disc did not need to specify both sides when it was originally written because using your thrown disc as the mark was not allowed. You had to or could place a mini to pick up and identify the disc if needed. When the option for using the thrown disc as a mark was added, marking both sides of discs should have been added but was probably not considered at the time. Was the rule changed specifically for speed of play? I wonder if the extra 21-40cm space to backup using the thrown disc as the marker was ever considered. Certainly players use this to an advantage other than speed of play. Say you need a long upshot drive and your disc is in a bad position, that extra 21-40cm could be the amount needed to step around a tree, or comfortably follow through a shot without hitting the tree in front, or step out farther from a bush the disc is in, etc...

Strange thing is when I learned about the choice of the marker when I first started playing, someone told me the rules specifically stated you could only step back 15cm from the edge of the thrown disc if used as the marker; I never found that rule.

I'm getting all my discs out now and marking the top of them~:-)

Yes. The rule was introduced as a waiver for the 1999 Pro Worlds in Rochester along with the option to ask players if it was OK to play out of turn like putting while the away player walked to their disc. This was done to fit four rounds a day on the courses using 3-somes where each round would take no more than 2 hours 15 minutes. These continued as temporary competition rules after Worlds since the experiment was considered a success. Then they were officially codified in the next rulebook update.

Being able to use your thrown disc as the marker does slightly speed play but in a way it's a "cheat" because it can make a slight difference in angle or clearance from obstacles upon throwing. The trade-off is not being able to use your thrown disc if you decide to use this option OR decide not to mark both sides of the disc.



if this is really supposed to be a trade-off, for using a "cheat" not flipping your disc one is penalized by not knowing if it really is their disc until after they throw, then why allow another player to be called over to identify?

I think, since this has apparently come up many times, that the rules should be adjusted for clarity, to either require a unique mark on both sides, or explicitly allow picking up the disc for ID (with or without mini).

Consider that Innova uses the same stamp for all of their first run discs.

Yes. The rule was introduced as a waiver for the 1999 Pro Worlds in Rochester along with the option to ask players if it was OK to play out of turn like putting while the away player walked to their disc. This was done to fit four rounds a day on the courses using 3-somes where each round would take no more than 2 hours 15 minutes. These continued as temporary competition rules after Worlds since the experiment was considered a success. Then they were officially codified in the next rulebook update. Did players instantly take notice of the advantage of having this option, or did it just start out for speed of play, and then players started to use the rules to their advantage?

it all comes back to Rochester doesn't it.

Did players instantly take notice of the advantage of having this option, or did it just start out for speed of play, and then players started to use the rules to their advantage?
Mark Ellis, who was behind these rules as Competition Director, did point out the advantage specifically at Black Creek where on one hole you might lay up and want to play back from the tall reeds in some cases.

Did players instantly take notice of the advantage of having this option, or did it just start out for speed of play, and then players started to use the rules to their advantage?Mini-optional was adopted at Michigan's MDGO tournaments a year or two before it became part of the PDGA rules. We took notice of the advantages immediately. It is especially useful for not backhanding a tree trunk in front of you.

So anyone have an opinion on marking with mini, picking up for ID, and replacing the same disc. ?
I know, I know, mark it on both sides. Maybe I don't see so well, I can't see the mark without reading glasses.



Yes, I have an opinion! Are you sure you want to read it? :)

Of course putting a mark on top of your disc is the easiest solution, but you apparently don't want easy.

As stated already on this thread, the rules specifically prohibit a player from marking with mini, picking up for ID and replacing the same disc. I do not believe any change to this rule is merited. The rule is not unfair. It is already very easy to understand. And most of all, it is not causing any major problems for players.

Also, you can already check a disc without having to mark it with a mini (or putting a mark on top). Simply tilt the disc up without moving the front edge or lifting it from the ground. If you forgot your reading glasses**, ask your card mate to check it for you.

There are already several solutions to this alleged "problem". I just don't understand how something can be a "problem" if it is so easily remedied.


** BTW - Needing reading glasses to see the mark on top of a disc is likely not a valid argument. Reading glasses are used because a person cannot read items UP CLOSE or in small print. If you make a mark in small print, you can always ask your card mate to read it for you. ;)

Ummm, doesn't the rule book specifically state that you may not have any contact with the disc if it is to be used as a marker? Seems like that would prohibit lifting the edge to verify your unique mark.

The Marking the disc rule states you can't touch the disc, the Identitfy the disc rule allows you to touch the disc, so you can call it however you want and then it will be like most of the rules in the rulebook that depending who is in your group decides what rules are followed, or more likely NOT followed. :(

I've thrown from the wrong disc before and have been stroked for it. It's no fun, especially in a big tourney. Since then I have always marked my discs on top. I don't think that it would be a problem to allow players to pick up their disc to identify it. Marking it first with a mini would make sense in order to get the disc back to it's original lie if you choose not to throw from behind the mini.
What's the big deal?

Not a big deal, but the rules say no. Once you mark the disc with your marker, you have chosen to use the marker. You cannot move the marker until the throw is complete. The rules also currently state that if you want to use the thrown disc, you cannot touch or reposition it. I'd prefer to see that change to prohibit repositioning only so that one can tilt the disc up to inspect the bottom for a unique mark.

I have not seen anything on this thread that suggests that we need a new rule. Several of you may need a new Sharpie. :D Some of you may need to get stroked for playing from the wrong disc before you fully understand your need for a new Sharpie. I'm fine with you getting stroked once or twice on the way to figuring it out.

Yes, I have an opinion! Are you sure you want to read it? :)

Of course putting a mark on top of your disc is the easiest solution, but you apparently don't want easy.

As stated already on this thread, the rules specifically prohibit a player from marking with mini, picking up for ID and replacing the same disc. I do not believe any change to this rule is merited. The rule is not unfair. It is already very easy to understand. And most of all, it is not causing any major problems for players.

Also, you can already check a disc without having to mark it with a mini (or putting a mark on top). Simply tilt the disc up without moving the front edge or lifting it from the ground. If you forgot your reading glasses**, ask your card mate to check it for you.

There are already several solutions to this alleged "problem". I just don't understand how something can be a "problem" if it is so easily remedied.


** BTW - Needing reading glasses to see the mark on top of a disc is likely not a valid argument. Reading glasses are used because a person cannot read items UP CLOSE or in small print. If you make a mark in small print, you can always ask your card mate to read it for you. ;)




Sorry, but your suggested method violates the part of the rule that prohibits touching the disc if it is to be used to mark the lie. See 803.03A. Perhaps some reading glasses are in order after all.

I have not seen anything on this thread that suggests that we need a new rule. Several of you may need a new Sharpie. :D Some of you may need to get stroked for playing from the wrong disc before you fully understand your need for a new Sharpie. I'm fine with you getting stroked once or twice on the way to figuring it out. I think I'm with you on this one. The rules do not specifiy how you should mark your disc, everyone normally marks on the bottom. However, I've seen a lot of players use a second mark on top, whether it is their initials, some unique sketch, or design. The way the rules are written it almost seems appropriate to mark both sides of the disc. Silly to say this, but here is the reason why I started marking the top of my discs.

After our card finished driving we proceeded towards are discs. Player in front of me was farther out, but I could see my disc and I was within 10ft of the basket. After the player putted, I went up to the disc, and at closer inspection it was another player's disc. I found my disc 20ft away in some higher grass. I set myself up to make an easy putt, then all of sudden now I am faced with a 35ft putt. I've done this several times, thinking of my shot from one disc, and then realizing it is not my disc, and wasted all that time thinking of the wrong shot. I started marking some of my discs on top and problem went away. I think it helps to ID your disc quicker by just putting your initials on the top of the disc.

Sorry, but your suggested method violates the part of the rule that prohibits touching the disc if it is to be used to mark the lie. See 803.03A. Perhaps some reading glasses are in order after all.

I do wear reading glasses! ;)

The rule you site only prohibits using the thrown disc as a marker if it has been touched or repositioned. There is no violation for picking up or tilting up a disc to identify it. Players should be advised that if they touch the disc in the process of identifying it and it turns out to be theirs, they must then use a marker disc for the lie instead of the originally thrown disc.


Players can still have a card mate check to see the name underneath. Because, apparently as long as the disc is not yours, this is an acceptable method to identify the disc as per 803.07C.

I have not seen anything on this thread that suggests that we need a new rule. Several of you may need a new Sharpie. :D Some of you may need to get stroked for playing from the wrong disc before you fully understand your need for a new Sharpie. I'm fine with you getting stroked once or twice on the way to figuring it out.



Been there, done that, got the Sharpie!

It's stupid not to be able to check your disc for your name by touching it.

I mark the top of my disc with a peace sign. I've seen that other players do the same mark. This could easily cause a problem. It's only logical that you should be able to check your disc without a penalty.
As long as another player is present when you do it so you don't reposition your disc for some kind of advantange, I don't see a problem.

It's stupid not to be able to check your disc for your name by touching it.

I mark the top of my disc with a peace sign. I've seen that other players do the same mark. This could easily cause a problem. It's only logical that you should be able to check your disc without a penalty.
As long as another player is present when you do it so you don't reposition your disc for some kind of advantange, I don't see a problem.The day you figure this out, probably everyone will switch to marking the top of their disc "Kenny Lee #14204"! :D

It's stupid not to be able to check your disc for your name by touching it.

I mark the top of my disc with a peace sign. I've seen that other players do the same mark. This could easily cause a problem. It's only logical that you should be able to check your disc without a penalty.
As long as another player is present when you do it so you don't reposition your disc for some kind of advantange, I don't see a problem. I think the reason it is written as such is to remove the possibility of a player changing their own lie. Just make your peace sign more unique. You could have a rainbow colored peace sign. Or make your peace sign very big and make it camouflage color. I haven't seen those two designs used and I'm sure that will make your disc more unique to identify.

Earlier in this thread (listed as the 5:28am post), CK stated:

"FYI - I don't believe you can replace a golf ball except on the green because it might change how the ball sits in the grass, trap or hazard."

I believe this is incorrect. USGA rule 12-2. states that a player in the act of identification of their ball CAN move a ball (lift and clean it) but only to the extent to facilitate that action (identification) - no more (excessive cleaning, etc.). And they must replace the ball to its original lie as closely as possible (in a divot if they found it in a divot, etc.). And, before they do ANY of this, they must relay this verbally to a playing partner, etc. (so no doing it 'unsupervised').

Granted this places a lot of onus on the player - but golf IS supposed to be a sport of ethics, no?

We could adopt such....

Karl

I mark the top of my disc with a peace sign. I've seen that other players do the same mark. This could easily cause a problem.

From the actual rule: "All discs used in play, except mini marker discs, must be uniquely marked..." :D

I was never fond of the "alleged speed of play" rule changes to begin with because they took one of the rare well codified portions of our sport and made it optional. There were clear directions and requirements for marking your thrown disc, and those directions caused you to put your supporting point pretty much exactly where your previously thrown disc had lain.

Now we have to evaluate if marking the disc is more advantageous than not marking it, and we are allowed to stand "not where the previous throw landed" but instead behind it if we wish.

It's just one of those things that, IMHO, moves us away from "sport" and back towards "game". But that could just be me. I would much prefer the no-mini rule to only be allowed within 10 meters of the target. Outside 10 you mark your disc like a sportsman and throw from where your previous lie actually landed, not behind it if you wish.

I also don't like the change where anyone can pull anyone else's disc out of the basket for the same general reasons. It seems more like a "sport" when you have to mark your lie and then pull your disc to complete the hole, and its more like a game when you can stand where you want and anyone can pull your disc. Its little stuff that doesn't seem to really matter that much, but to me it affects the attitude on the course.

But I'm pretty much a weirdo...

There are times where my disc lands deep under a bush where placing a mini is impractical as I can barely get my foot behind the disc as it is. Bout the only way to place the mini would be to take off my shoes and socks, grab it with my toes, and attempt to place it in front of my disc on the line of play. I don't think anyone would want to be near me when I take off that boot....
The no-mini rule has a place.

The speed of play rule is the best thing that ever happened to this sport/game. Now I only have to bend over half as much. And for an older guy, it makes a big difference during a round/tourney.

Bruce: that was a good one!

Karl: we "should" adopt it.

Patrick: do you really think that I need that advice? a rainbow??

Rhett: I'd agree with you on the "weirdo" statement, but I don't want to get banned.

The speed of play rule is the best thing that ever happened to this sport/game. Now I only have to bend over half as much. And for an older guy, it makes a big difference during a round/tourney.

Patrick: do you really think that I need that advice? a rainbow?? lol, your right, it may not be so unique :-)

I do like the speed of play rule. It's funny watching new players trying to place a mini marker for their disc laying directly under the basket. I just let them bend down twice until someday they figure it out for themselves.

FYI - I don't believe you can replace a golf ball except on the green because it might change how the ball sits in the grass, trap or hazard.

As mentioned above, you can pick up a golf ball and replace it when that action is necessary to identify the ball. I saw it occur at the British Open this year. I think you can also mark, lift and replace your ball off the green if the location of your ball impedes another players stance or swing. (U.S. Open this year, two players end up 6 inches apart in a bunker)

Additionally, competitive golf is sometimes played using a "lift, clean and play" rule when course conditions are poor (standing water or mud in fairways).

As stated already on this thread, the rules specifically prohibit a player from marking with mini, picking up for ID and replacing the same disc.





This is the first post to answer that question definitively.