Is it a good idea to take a small portion of the fees collected from each player and each PDGA sanctioned and put that towards the purse at Worlds?

Let's get one thing straight. That concept doesn't mean that the KC folks did anything wrong. They clearly followed the guidelines set by the PDGA. The PDGA didn't do anything wrong. They followed the guidelines currently in place. I attended Worlds this year and had a blast. It was a great tourney and I�ll be back again, no doubt about it. Even if it says the same I�ll still be back. These comments are in no way a reflection of the quality of the 2009 Worlds.

The real question is, as both paying members of the PDGA and as player's who pay fees at each sanctioned event, do we want the PDGA to change how it is doing business, to take a small portion of the fees and allocate it to the added cash at Worlds?

In my eyes the concept makes sense. Earlier someone mentioned sponsorships. By using the above concept, you'd be sponsoring Worlds with each tournament you enter. Sure at each tourney that may only be a few bucks, but due to the economies of scale, we could greatly grow the purse at Worlds. I don't have all the details but at first glance it appears we could substantially grow the Worlds purse. In my eyes this is best way to grow the sport. If the Men's Open winner gets a check for $25,000 that in turn will grow the sport, it will attract more media attention, it will attract better athletes (not saying the players we have aren't athletes), & it will attract more sponsors since there will be more interest. It�s like an avalanche; once it gets started it builds and builds to the point where the PDGA members won't even have to subsidize the event.

Again I can�t emphasize this enough; these comments have absolutely nothing to do with the 2009 Worlds. That event was great. These comments are about making the future of Worlds better.

I don�t have all the answers and maybe this idea won�t work but as of right now I think it is a good idea. I took 5 minutes to hash out some of the details of the idea. I�ve create a crude website with the details. Check it out. Maybe those that think it is a good idea can join this grass roots effort to convince the PDGA this is valid concept worth exploring. Of course maybe it isn�t a good idea, only time and due diligence will tell. I�m open to hearing arguments from both sides, let the discussion begin �

http://sites.google.com/site/pdgaworldchampionships/

i would like to see the numbers posted (all of them). not because i'm questions the PDGA or KC but think it would help everyone understand that things aren't so cut and dry.

have heard the payout was $83,000 this year and others have said that sounds low bc over $70,000 came from just player entry... it looks like the PDGA put in $10,000 so that would make $3,000 in other added cash.

now on the surface that sounds bad but if the $83K is just payout then i'm sure the number would blow our mind as far as how much was spent in every aspect of the tourney. can this be posted?

i'm sure its hard to comprehend how much has to go on and be spent behind the scenes and when you take all of that into account it might paint a different picture.

sure there is always someone will come on and complain and say... "what?! that much money was spent on X ... put that money in the pro purse" but truth be told to have a great tournament that money probably has to go to X because thats what a majority of the players expect at an event of this caliber.

btw... thanks for creating the new thread... did think it was sad to have all of that dirty laundry on the actual tourney thread.

I am just trying to add clarity. Again on the surface it sounds like a good idea but who knows if it is until all the details get flushed out. Often times people get all heated in the debate that are arguing about something completely different.

Just because $1 from every player per tournament would likely raise $100,000+ in added cash for Worlds, it's not necessarily what the rest of the PDGA membership wants to do with that money. It's not the best use of that money and it doesn't grow the sport of disc golf like other PDGA programs do.

I can't imagine that the PDGA membership nor the PDGA BoD would ever vote for this. It's a lot of money which could fund an ENORMOUS number of programs, grants, and initiatives (both exisiting and new ones) to grow the sport of disc golf. What does the PDGA accomplish with membership fees? Click here to find out! (http://www.pdga.com/faq/membership/where-do-my-membership-fees-go)

I'm not convinced that just by giving out the Men's Open winner a check for $25,000, it will do anything more to grow the sport, attract more media attention, attract better athletes, or attract more sponsors.

And that's what it comes down to. When you give out a large sum of money to players at Pro Worlds, all you basically do is pay for the travel expenses of about 100 highly-ranked touring professional disc golfers. When you use that money for a plethora of other programs, grants, and initiatives, you help to grow the sport of disc golf. If we grow the sport, then the sponsorship and big payout tournaments will eventually come.

You know payout is low when they never posted it anywhere that I saw. We even had to pay to attend our own players party!!! Just wonder If the PDGA could take a $1 or $2 per person per event all year and add the amount to the Pro purse. People would be more interested in our sport if the winner of our Major touramnents were taking home BIG BUCKs. Just seems like we are going downhill when it comes to payout. Everything else is in place, with good staff, huge amount of current disc golfers, growing number of courses, and the growing knowledge of our sport. Just seems like the money we all pay in just goes to the wrong places, money could be managed better. Just want our sport to be as big as it can be!!!


C'mon Coda! Listen to what these guys are saying. If you want to make more money you have to play better and not tie (Jesper, Doss, and Climo) since they are not very good golfers and should only get $600 for their finish.

How much did you make in Crowley? $1500 at a B-tier with only 1-2 days of hotel? You made over $9 per shot at that event but only $1.70 per shot at worlds. Now that sounds pretty bad when any one of those shots can injure a player right?

BTW I made $740 at that same event with a much lower entry than worlds without a week long hotel expense.

Worlds is great because it pulls the best players from around the country but it is sad that the majority of them could have cashed much higher by just staying home for a Local C or B-tier.

I was preparing this for the Worlds thread but I'll do it here instead:

If anyone deserves to be paid next, it's those who run Worlds and other major events. The $83,000 in entry fees and added cash doesn't come close to covering the true value of the PROFESSIONAL work put in by core Worlds staffers annually. I'm not talking about the volunteers during the week like spotters and water runners. That's also large but then major sporting events like golf majors have lots of volunteers, too. We're talking about the efforts over several years of the core team to produce a Worlds of even the quality we currently have.

Those core people are paid to produce and run other big time sporting events. They should be the next ones to get paid in our sport before our players UNLESS as Rhett and I continually point out, someone cares to watch our players. That's the ONLY source that really pays the top pros in other sports. Whether it's sponsor purses or sponsor endorsement deals, those big money contracts are there because tens of thousands of fans care to watch, buy merch and pay for tickets to watch.

And 'no' it's not because the pros were on TV first before the fans cared. The fans cared and attended events in large numbers long before the events were on TV. Scrabble, curling and lumber jack competitions have been on TV and we don't hear of big pro contracts or endorsements for their top players.

Our World Championships do pay for more labor and travel expenses from the budget than other weekend PDGA events. That's one thing that does reduce the payouts at Worlds. Expect that to continue or you won't see people wanting to host them at all, especially with the whining aftermath each year about payouts and any other failings.

Players should thank their lucky stars Innova doesn't appear to take out money from whatever outside sponsorship and Roc sales they generate to pay all of their employees who help prepare and run the USDGC. If the USDGC with all of the trappings it currently has was not produced by a manufacturer willing to dip into the bank, it could not have the payouts it has. And Innova has tried as much as anyone to draw spectators to the USDGC.

if the pdga takes more money from event fees from my events to subsidize pro payouts at worlds i will take my ball and go home (so to speak) so fast it would make your head spin. for there to be more $ in this game/sport there needs to be money coming from outside of the game/sport rather than extorting it from the player base in some pyramid scheme.

Just because $1 from every player per tournament would likely raise $100,000+ in added cash for Worlds, it's not necessarily what the rest of the PDGA membership wants to do with that money. It's not the best use of that money and it doesn't grow the sport of disc golf like other PDGA programs do.

I can't imagine that the PDGA membership nor the PDGA BoD would ever vote for this. It's a lot of money which could fund an ENORMOUS number of programs, grants, and initiatives (both exisiting and new ones) to grow the sport of disc golf. What does the PDGA accomplish with membership fees? Click here to find out! (http://www.pdga.com/faq/membership/where-do-my-membership-fees-go)

I'm not convinced that just by giving out the Men's Open winner a check for $25,000, it will do anything more to grow the sport, attract more media attention, attract better athletes, or attract more sponsors.

And that's what it comes down to. When you give out a large sum of money to players at Pro Worlds, all you basically do is pay for the travel expenses of about 100 highly-ranked touring professional disc golfers. When you use that money for a plethora of other programs, grants, and initiatives, you help to grow the sport of disc golf. If we grow the sport, then the sponsorship and big payout tournaments will eventually come.


He is asking for 10% of the fees to go to worlds! That leaves 90% for the other programs which are supposedly growing the sport. Basically what you are saying Jeff is that since the PDGA won't send out a survey on the subject we should just assume everyone is fine with the current situation even though you have many long-time members complaining about the lack of payout presence at the worlds largest DG event?


Don't you think it is bad for the sport when outside sponsors look at what the top guys are making? I think you would be surprised at the number of people who feel the tournament needs to be stepped up in this department and would actually like to see a program where they see where the money is going.

It would at least give the PDGA some transparency since right now they are as Opaque as My Black Cyclone.

THanks Jerry,

You are right, but it happens after every worlds thread....it is a sore subject, and unfortunately it sounds like the return on investment may have bitten a good sponsor by reading this.

Disc golfers until we spend money will not generate money. Money chases money. Simple economics. I gave it a good try, hopefully others will take it and run.

The PDGA is not the problem. We are a CHEAP group to join....$100/year.....I pay $250/quarter for my Kiwanis Group, and I do less with them than I do with disc golf, and they give more to communities than disc golf ever will. If we the PDGA Raises the entry amount to $200/year, and says, that $100 of that will go towards tthe World's payout, how many people would pay it? I would, but again I feel I am in the minority of mouth meeting the road in what I do....the rest of you......think about it...many of you wanted to opt out for $15 on a magazine for the sport so offering a way to make more $$$$....but at the same tokken if we got say 5% of the PDGA to donate the $100, that would be $50k......it would make some inroads, but then I think that once it gets going the people that donated it should be compensated with very extra special gifts from teh players and worlds.....like $30k to the payout, $20k for gifts and recognition.....

Just thoughts.

Again thank you all for coming to KC, it was our pleasure to have you visit what we feel is the best disc golf city in the world. After many of you have been here how many of you disagree?

Why I moved here, housing is cheap, and we need more volunteers, so look up a new job or transfer to KC, we'll take ya!

They have increased our membership dues over the past few years, but still the same stuff

My question with all this is:
Why does added money always have to go to the "pros". When in reality Open players only cost tourneys money, especially if they get players packs on top of the 100%+ payout they get. Not that I don't like watching the pros throw some times, but they are in no way the reason I attend tourneys, or why I started playing disc golf in the first place. At every tourney I have ever been to the Ams out number the pros by almost double. But the Am fields are were money is made at tourneys, mostly through paying out discs at retail prices(or higher) when they were purchased at wholesale costs.

----------------

Now to the reason this thread was created. I would be all for part of the money we send in for our sanctioning fees, player fees, and memebership dues going back into the payout for the World Championships. But to be fair the money used would need to be split between the pros and ams....not soley to the pro fields. Reason being, why should the money I paid to play in a tourney be used to pad the pros purse at worlds and not my own purse at worlds?

The way I see it if money is taken to be added to any purses...and this is just to make the math easy. If there is a tourney with 8 pros and 10 ams and we are going to take $1 from each players entry. $8 should go to the pro purse, and $10 to the ams purse. Not all $18 to the pro purse.

Bums could make more money than i did at a week of picking up cans!!!!

That is some funny feces right there! Heck that may be my new signature.

My question with all this is:
Why does added money always have to go to the "pros". When in reality Open players only cost tourneys money, especially if they get players packs on top of the 100%+ payout they get.
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But to be fair the money used would need to be split between the pros and ams....not soley to the pro fields.


Check out the website, that's exactly what I am proposing. There is n't even any reason the Am dollars have to go ot payout, it could go to paying the host club, or installing a new course in the host city, or for the marshalls or other staff. There are lots of options.

Now to the reason this thread was created. I would be all for part of the money we send in for our sanctioning fees, player fees, and memebership dues going back into the payout for the World Championships. But to be fair the money used would need to be split between the pros and ams....not soley to the pro fields.
Pointing out that many of our "ams" are just "pros" playing for merch instead of cash. Of course, if that am portion of the money went toward things like free am player parties and other entertainment venues instead of merch, then maybe...

for there to be more $ in this game/sport there needs to be money coming from outside of the game/sport rather than extorting it from the player base in some pyramid scheme.

This should be the end of this thread!

That was eloquently worded, John. This sums it entirely up in a nutshell.

I think the point of finding a simple mechanism to add cash to the "World Championships" has a lot to do with growth.

Personally - I don't see much at all in the way of growth from a financial standpoint. My 5th place finish in 1992 yielded me somewhere around 11 or 1200 bucks. 17 years later 5th place got $1400. I call that nada - not even keeping up with inflation.

I think if you told players that an extra dollar from their entry fees were going directly to Worlds a couple things would happen.
* You would start to see people competing to get in - the whole scenario of getting in without an invitation would start to go away (I think this would be a good thing)
* More host clubs would see a better base starting position financially for hosting the event and this would generate more interest around the country (as opposed to the PDGA basically begging for anyone with the cahunas to step and try - year after year).
* That base financial position is a natural form of leverage that gets you access to more people w/bigger money. Approaching corporate sponsors w/100K already in your pocket is pretty significant.
* Having a working budget going in would provide host clubs with significant resources for pursuing mass media (be it local advertising or actual media coverage), and more effective merchandising.

I personally haven't played Worlds since 1996 (and I've been 8 times). There's a lot of reasons - but one of the main ones - is it's just not worth it. There's really no incentive for me to take a week of vacation (or more) to try and go someplace and learn 4-5-6-or more new courses and actually be competitive. That's just not enjoyable for me anymore. I've been several times, where I cashed and basically got my entry fee back (one time I was 15-20 spots into the cash and got LESS than my entry fee back!)

I don't disagree that there are plenty of worthy uses for the player fees that the PDGA collects. But it seems to me that the few basic mechanisms that the PDGA has for generating revenue could be used much more effectively in promoting their premiere events.

My question with all this is:
Why does added money always have to go to the "pros". When in reality Open players only cost tourneys money, especially if they get players packs on top of the 100%+ payout they get. Not that I don't like watching the pros throw some times, but they are in no way the reason I attend tourneys, or why I started playing disc golf in the first place. At every tourney I have ever been to the Ams out number the pros by almost double. But the Am fields are were money is made at tourneys, mostly through paying out discs at retail prices(or higher) when they were purchased at wholesale costs.

----------------

Now to the reason this thread was created. I would be all for part of the money we send in for our sanctioning fees, player fees, and memebership dues going back into the payout for the World Championships. But to be fair the money used would need to be split between the pros and ams....not soley to the pro fields. Reason being, why should the money I paid to play in a tourney be used to pad the pros purse at worlds and not my own purse at worlds?

The way I see it if money is taken to be added to any purses...and this is just to make the math easy. If there is a tourney with 8 pros and 10 ams and we are going to take $1 from each players entry. $8 should go to the pro purse, and $10 to the ams purse. Not all $18 to the pro purse.

They can increase the am payout just off money made from merch payouts!!! Think of how much money was made from the Am side of worlds!! And I know the club is very derserving of these profits, but they could still put back a little to increase the purse.

Mr. Feldberg will become a Board Member September 1. It will be interesting to see his perspective once on the inside.

This should be the end of this thread!

That was eloquently worded, John. This sums it entirely up in a nutshell.



Yeah but the more events you play the more you put in and those who play 20+ events will likely be going to worlds anyway (and if they weren't they will if the payout is worth it)

Players like you will put NOTHING in so why are you so against it? The PDGA already takes $150 from me per year I would just like to have a shot at making some of that back.

You play 3 events you put in $3 you play 50 like Bennett You put in $50 but will recoop more than that if you play well at worlds. The PDGA needs to realize that many of the players who are upset (the ones attending worlds consistently) are among some of the most dedicated members yet they can't even have a tournament built up to say "THANK YOU MEMBERS" instead we leave feeling like we had been taken advantage of in some way.

The main problem I see with "pros" and thier whining about payout is they somehow feel as though they are the future of the sport and it will be because of them that the sport grows. BS. Anyone that has any awareness of things know that the "pro" ranks actually take away from the sport alot more than what they put in.

"pros" make up a small fraction of a single percentage of those who actually play the game. The growth of the sport lays in the hands of the amatuers and casual and recreational players. Most of which could care less that "pro" player did this or that or how much money was paid to "pro" at a Worlds. From a business standpoint of owning a Disc Golf Retail store for 5 years, my revenue from Pro Players would barely be enough to pay the electric bill for one month. From a TD stance where I ran an A-tier for 4 years drawing in the best "pros" from around the world, which translated to absolutely nothing for me. The pros were so self indulged that they could'nt find it in thier time to even thank the local businesses that donated 1000's of dollars just to have them come to town. Wonder why it's so hard to raise extra money. There is 0% return when dealing with the "pros".

Pros need to learn this the hard way by running thier own org and tournaments. Then and only then will they have a chance of seeing the light.

Mr. Feldberg will become a Board Member September 1. It will be interesting to see his perspective once on the inside.



It would be nice to see if he and Jenks could get the Player's union thing going sometime soon. I know they tried a few years back but that is when they were in school and didn't have as much free time.\


Oh and the best thing in the Player's pack was either the Foam Wham-O or the Deer Whistle. lol

Def the deer whistle.................seriously

BTW, we still have no official bidder for 2011 Pro Worlds. I wonder why? Maybe we should skip Pro Worlds every other year and save up the money like they do for the Japan, European and Scandinavian Opens hosted every other year?

Mr. Gangloff,

This year they payed out 57 and I took 34th and made $230 after paying a $215 entry. The sad thing is tat last cash got $150 meaning I only made $80 more than someone who finished 23 spots behind me????????????????????????????????????????????? WTH?


Also what kinda PDGA payout pays the same amount to players who finished at different scores????????

Certainly don't see that anywhere else but worlds.

BTW, we still have no official bidder for 2011 Pro Worlds. I wonder why? Maybe we should skip Pro Worlds every other year and save up the money like they do for the Japan, European and Scandinavian Opens hosted every other year?



Maybe if they had some incentive they would run the event! How about $1 per pro entry goes to that event? they should be more likely to do it with 30K+ added from the start.

The main problem I see with "pros" and thier whining about payout is they somehow feel as though they are the future of the sport and it will be because of them that the sport grows. BS. Anyone that has any awareness of things know that the "pro" ranks actually take away from the sport alot more than what they put in.

"pros" make up a small fraction of a single percentage of those who actually play the game. The growth of the sport lays in the hands of the amatuers and casual and recreational players. Most of which could care less that "pro" player did this or that or how much money was paid to "pro" at a Worlds. From a business standpoint of owning a Disc Golf Retail store for 5 years, my revenue from Pro Players would barely be enough to pay the electric bill for one month. From a TD stance where I ran an A-tier for 4 years drawing in the best "pros" from around the world, which translated to absolutely nothing for me. The pros were so self indulged that they could'nt find it in thier time to even thank the local businesses that donated 1000's of dollars just to have them come to town. Wonder why it's so hard to raise extra money. There is 0% return when dealing with the "pros".

Pros need to learn this the hard way by running thier own org and tournaments. Then and only then will they have a chance of seeing the light.


what you are describing is the ADGA. it is difficult to believe there are people who think professional athletes should be running their own organization and events. it's pretty unfair to stereotype so many people because of divisional classification as well. i am sorry that the events you ran did not turn out the way you had hoped and that certain people did not support your business the way you may have expected, but what are you attempting to gain from these types of posts?

The incentive would be that those putting it on would be paid, not that it would be added to the pro purse.

The main problem I see with "pros" and thier whining about payout is they somehow feel as though they are the future of the sport and it will be because of them that the sport grows. BS. Anyone that has any awareness of things know that the "pro" ranks actually take away from the sport alot more than what they put in.


yes, if every player stayed an am, the sport would rocket upward

Rick,
You are putting every pro into a stereotype, and that works against your argument. For the most part the 'true' is on the road and at the mercy of the T.D.. They don't buy plastic because they have sponsors. They make their own lunch and dinner because they are budgeting like its the great depression. Most do not attend players parties because they cant afford it. And yet...Every picture and article that pertains to the sport has a pro's photo plastered on it. Every T.D.(of a multiple div. event) advertises the pro's who will be attending. Every amateur(whether they admit or not) wants to know what so and so will shoot on their home course. Do not forget that most actual pros do not tour. These guys are out on the local courses, playing events, doubles, and leagues(if not running all these things).
The basic argument here is the money for worlds, not a pros yearly income. When I explain worlds to my non-DG friends I have to lie and say that first gets like $25,000. Why should that be a lie with the amount of revenue taken in by the org..

The incentive would be that those putting it on would be paid, not that it would be added to the pro purse.

Yea that is true (and I don't think you are wrong) but it would aslo make it easier on the host city of they didn't have to do so much sponsor searching to find needed money. Oh that is the Marketing Director's job who I saw at worlds walking around with a Mic obviously going to be the voice/face of the PDGA even with the recent events in Philly.

Did Duesler pay for his own plane/accommodations? I know that I had an awkward feeling when I was around him knowing what he has been through while knowing that he is not going to step down although there are many who feel he should be doing a more productive job.

How much did you make in Crowley? $1500 at a B-tier with only 1-2 days of hotel? You made over $9 per shot at that event but only $1.70 per shot at worlds. Now that sounds pretty bad when any one of those shots can injure a player right?

BTW I made $740 at that same event with a much lower entry than worlds without a week long hotel expense.

Worlds is great because it pulls the best players from around the country but it is sad that the majority of them could have cashed much higher by just staying home for a Local C or B-tier.

The answer is simple: Don't go to worlds. If you are so obsessed with the return on your investment and don't like the payout, then don't go. Continue to go to C-tiers and such, where you can make more money per throw. You could spend that week picking up cans, since that will get you more money. It sure doesn't seem as much fun to me, but apparently you're not interested in that anyways.

The rest of the people at Worlds will somehow try to get along without you there.

Lets start referring to the field in question as 'OPEN". Anyone can play in this div..

The answer is simple: Don't go to worlds. If you are so obsessed with the return on your investment and don't like the payout, then don't go. Continue to go to C-tiers and such, where you can make more money per throw. You could spend that week picking up cans, since that will get you more money. It sure doesn't seem as much fun to me, but apparently you're not interested in that anyways.

The rest of the people at Worlds will somehow try to get along without you there.

Once again you seem to miss the point in that it is not all about the payout (IF IT WAS I WOULDN'T GO) but I do attend because it is an event full of great fun with many golfers you may not have seen in a while. With that said you cannot justify the payout in anyway when you look at what most players put into it.

Still would like to know why 10 Players made between $150-$170 while competing in the same division??????????????

I love to hear people tell me about how much they love the sport and that is the whole reason they attend these implying that those who complain about certain aspects of the event have no true love for the sport. If anything it is the passion we feel for this subject that should show we want our sport to be seen in a better light without having to lie about our worlds payout.

I also tell non DGers that 1st at worlds makes way more and usually lie about what i made so I don't get laughed at.

The answer is simple: Don't go to worlds. If you are so obsessed with the return on your investment and don't like the payout, then don't go. Continue to go to C-tiers and such, where you can make more money per throw. You could spend that week picking up cans, since that will get you more money. It sure doesn't seem as much fun to me, but apparently you're not interested in that anyways.

The rest of the people at Worlds will somehow try to get along without you there.

But that wouldn't be the DISCussion board way, Packman. Remember that the name of the game around here is to continually complain. If Matt didn't go to Worlds, then he couldn't whine about the payout and he might have to come up with something new to complain about, which might prove difficult. It's much easier to just go to Worlds so he can still complain. :D

Jeff, are you open to any ideas other than your own?:cool:

how to have bigger payout at worlds...

create yet another tier of event- W tier. inflate the fees and let some portion of the fees for those events go directly to worlds, eliminate all financial support from the pdga to worlds other than what is generated there- force anyone who wants to play worlds to qualify in some fashion through one or more of these events-no exceptions. have the national disc golf family reunion another time/another place or eliminate it altogether. the basic concept of the dg reunion and that of a high-payout event are incompatible, imo.

if you're really ambitious co-opt the whole deal out from under the pdga.

now the question becomes how to convince td's to run a w tier event...

Jeff, are you open to any ideas other than your own?:cool:

I don't know a single person in disc golf who isn't open to new ideas. Just about everyone I've come across wants to see the sport grow with more and better courses, better equipment, bigger tournaments, bigger sponsors, national media, better payouts, and the ability to support touring professionals.

The sport cannot support touring professionals right now. Is that not obvious? And a pyramid scheme to extort the existing player base just to boost the Worlds payout is not the answer.

And it's ridiculous that someone knows full well what the Worlds payout is going to be, complains about it before going to Worlds, goes to Worlds, then comes back and whines about it less than 48 hours after the last putt was drained, and saying the exact same things. http://www.bearclaws.org/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

Rick,
You are putting every pro into a stereotype, and that works against your argument. For the most part the 'true' is on the road and at the mercy of the T.D.. They don't buy plastic because they have sponsors. They make their own lunch and dinner because they are budgeting like its the great depression. Most do not attend players parties because they cant afford it. And yet...Every picture and article that pertains to the sport has a pro's photo plastered on it. Every T.D.(of a multiple div. event) advertises the pro's who will be attending. Every amateur(whether they admit or not) wants to know what so and so will shoot on their home course. Do not forget that most actual pros do not tour. These guys are out on the local courses, playing events, doubles, and leagues(if not running all these things).
The basic argument here is the money for worlds, not a pros yearly income. When I explain worlds to my non-DG friends I have to lie and say that first gets like $25,000. Why should that be a lie with the amount of revenue taken in by the org..

I'm not stereotyping every pro. Most pros I know are gracious knowing that so many volunteers do so much to accomodate them. This is directed at the pros who seem to think that they should be put first and catered to above everyone else.
Sponsors. I wonder what return on investment is in it for the sponsors. How much money do you think you generate for them? They're not in it thinking they're going to get anything back. It's more of a status thing. This player is on our team and he did better than the player from the other company.
And as far as players parties go. It was the pro players that showed up more than the ams by a 2 to 1 ratio. Why, beacause it was free food.
And not every article has a pro featured. Search David Wiggins Jr. on you tube sometime. A grateful player full of class beyond most people's comprehension.
I advertised what pros were coming and there was no interest outside of those already attending the event. None. Zilch. And this even with the fact that one of the bigger known sporst writers is a personal friend and the biggest event in the sport started a day after ours ended.
On the local courses, playing events....And how many of the recreational players that are sharing the course with you even know who the pros are or care? They are the core audience sposors are interested in. Without them there is no major sponsorship money. Pros are just a tool to market a sponsors products.

You can make your own meals for lunch and dinner because you're budgeting. I'll give you that. But think about this the next tournament you play in. You do well and it's time to accept your cash. Briefly thank your sponsors. Then thank each and every am player there. A chunk of thier entry fee went to your prize winnings without them having a say. And before you leave town, stop by mom and pop resturaunt just to say thanks. I mean they only put up $750 and free food for you guys. If you can't stop by due to prior travel arrangements then call them the minute you get home and say thanks. Or write them a letter or an email and say how absolutely thankful you are that they did what they did. This will help the volunteer TD's next year when they go back and ask for more money. When you've done all that, go to your local course and thank every recreational player you can find. You see without them buying plastic from your sponsor, the Innova's and Discraft's of the world would fade away. Be thankful that you even have the chance to make anything playing this sport.

Mr. Feldberg will become a Board Member September 1. It will be interesting to see his perspective once on the inside.

Chuck, where are the election results listed?

Here is what I get; I get the suggestions of ways to improve the payout. I get that players played amazing golf and financially were not rewarded for their play as they probably should have been or could have been, in comparison, elsewhere.

The worlds, in comparison to most events, has a very bad payout. We can debate all we want and we can throw out all the stats about the total purse and talk about the experience all we want, but it is true - the worlds has a bad payout.

However, the worlds is ABOUT the experience. If it were a TRUE world championship (meaning there was actual qualifying for it, as with USDGC), those who barely made their entry fee back would have gotten nothing for their play. Let's remember that on this stage the amazing 4 digit round rating we all aspire to be at and brag about is NOT a good round. In fact when I talk to people who just turned pro I usually let them know that the first key to playing pro is getting the idea that 1000 is good out of your head. I've shot 1020 before and fallen - and that has happened multiple times. Be thankfull there were 958 mullets like myself who made your 1010 average week finish in the cash b/c if it was an elite field, you wouldn't have received a paycheck at all.

So after all that, here is what I don't get. If players KNOW the payout is going to be bad and that you have to average 1050 over the course of a 7 rounds to win and 1030 to make a good amount of money, why do you go? Is the lure of the title? Because if that is the case and what is most important to you the paycheck should not matter. While Olympians get unbelievably paid in endorsements, your 20 dollars in profit is still 20 more dollars than Michael Phelps made at the Olympics this year.

Bottom line if I'm going to a tournament for payout knowing the payout sucks, then guess what? I'm not thinking very clearly....

I was having a conversation just this afternoon with a couple of people who are well involved in PDGA affairs.

The PGDA is the Professional Disc Golf Association.

The PGA was the Professional Golfers of America, or the Professional Golfers' Association Tour (they've both gone acronym-only, so it's a bit moot point, but read this.)
The PGA TOUR is a tax-exempt membership organization of professional golfers. The mission of the PGA TOUR is to expand domestically and internationally to substantially increase player financial benefits while maintaining its commitment to the integrity of the game. The PGA TOUR events are also committed to generating revenue for charitable causes in their communities.

The PGA of America has NO amateur classifications whatsoever, either. The are about GOLFERS.

The word GOLFERS versus DISC GOLF is the point. In this organization, how many truly make a complete living from nothing but disc golf? 10? 15? out of what, 10,000 active members?

The point was made, in that conversation, that in the Poker tournament world, a "Professional" is considered one who only plays poker for a living. Weekend warriors, or those who take vacation time from a 'day gig', don't get that status.

Pros are the ones who give our sport recognition on a national level, yes. But if we could get 4,000-5,000 more ams to join every year, think what this group could accomplish.

Oh, the PGA Tour requires all tour player to go to Golf Tour school. Teaching points include behavior, dress, media relations. Players are expected to donate time for public affairs, media days much more taxing than that at our Worlds (and, every week), charitable events (yes, some do pay the biggest names, but not many). Are you willing to commit to all these in order to bring the professional side of disc golf to a new level?

I don't know a single person in disc golf who isn't open to new ideas. Just about everyone I've come across wants to see the sport grow with more and better courses, better equipment, bigger tournaments, bigger sponsors, national media, better payouts, and the ability to support touring professionals.

The sport cannot support touring professionals right now. Is that not obvious? And a pyramid scheme to extort the existing player base just to boost the Worlds payout is not the answer.

And it's ridiculous that someone knows full well what the Worlds payout is going to be, complains about it before going to Worlds, goes to Worlds, then comes back and whines about it less than 48 hours after the last putt was drained, and saying the exact same things. http://www.bearclaws.org/forum/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif


What is ridiculous is that things never change as as Craig has stated the payouts are actually worse than they were when he last attended in 96'.

What is also ridiculous is we have an ED who seems oblivious to what is going on within the membership and has yet to realize that not everyone throws in their $50-$75 per year because they love the PDGA and all that is does but that many of those same players would like to see major changes in the way our sport is run by the org.

What is also ridiculous is that I will be back next year whether the payouts have improved or not. The PDGA knows that people will continue to come to worlds regardless of the payout and that is why things will never change.

Maybe one year we could just boycott the event but I feel most of us love the sport too much to miss such a large event. Like I said it is a DG flytrap and I made twice as much selling my personal discs than I made in payout.

Here is what I get; I get the suggestions of ways to improve the payout. I get that players played amazing golf and financially were not rewarded for their play as they probably should have been or could have been, in comparison, elsewhere.

The worlds, in comparison to most events, has a very bad payout. We can debate all we want and we can throw out all the stats about the total purse and talk about the experience all we want, but it is true - the worlds has a bad payout.

However, the worlds is ABOUT the experience. If it were a TRUE world championship (meaning there was actual qualifying for it, as with USDGC), those who barely made their entry fee back would have gotten nothing for their play. Let's remember that on this stage the amazing 4 digit round rating we all aspire to be at and brag about is NOT a good round. In fact when I talk to people who just turned pro I usually let them know that the first key to playing pro is getting the idea that 1000 is good out of your head. I've shot 1020 before and fallen - and that has happened multiple times. Be thankfull there were 958 mullets like myself who made your 1010 average week finish in the cash b/c if it was an elite field, you wouldn't have received a paycheck at all.

So after all that, here is what I don't get. If players KNOW the payout is going to be bad and that you have to average 1050 over the course of a 7 rounds to win and 1030 to make a good amount of money, why do you go? Is the lure of the title? Because if that is the case and what is most important to you the paycheck should not matter. While Olympians get unbelievably paid in endorsements, your 20 dollars in profit is still 20 more dollars than Michael Phelps made at the Olympics this year.

Bottom line if I'm going to a tournament for payout knowing the payout sucks, then guess what? I'm not thinking very clearly....


Not going for the payout although it would be nice if that were possible.

Chuck, where are the election results listed?
Look at the front page.

But that wouldn't be the DISCussion board way, Packman. Remember that the name of the game around here is to continually complain. If Matt didn't go to Worlds, then he couldn't whine about the payout and he might have to come up with something new to complain about, which might prove difficult. It's much easier to just go to Worlds so he can still complain. :D

You don't even attend worlds, let alone play Pro worlds!! So it makes it clear as to why you don't understand our comments/concerns. Am's are notorious for not knowing when they are getting the shaft!!!

Coda, Jeff has been your scorekeeper at Worlds the past several years and has seen more than you've seen of the inner workings of the event. Plus he usually plays all of the courses on his own time before or after the event so he can see what you see even if he can't throw how you throw.

Coda, Jeff has been your scorekeeper at Worlds the past several years and has seen more than you've seen of the inner workings of the event. Plus he usually plays all of the courses on his own time before or after the event so he can see what you see even if he can't throw how you throw.



Yet he never plays PDGA events and thus doesn't have $3+ taken from his entry at every event.

Seems like the easiest way to fix the problem would be lower the entry fee. Lets not have any payout and just play for the World Title. How many people would be willing to do this.

I didn't cash, stayed at the host hotel (paying $15 each day to park), eating out or choking down PB&J. I knew going in that if I played at the level I should I would come close to breaking even.

I have always felt like the PDGA should do everything they can do to make Worlds the biggest/best tourney of the year. Until we have people standing in line for hours just to get their hands on a "fund raiser disc" we are going to be playing for basically our own money.

I have ZERO problems flying in the PDGA people and paying for their rooms and meals. They are running our organization.

My biggest complaint is teeing off at 8 AM every morning. That was nuts!

I think there are lots of good ideas here. If we want Worlds to be the best, some change needs to be made. A few $$ from each membership, a dollar from each tourney, so much money/1000 "made" by the PDGA are all great ideas.

Worlds was awesome, the courses were awesome, the atmosphere was awesome. I would go back next month and do it again. This time I wouldn't forget to pack my game and I would break even.

Not going for the payout although it would be nice if that were possible.

Then why do you keep harping on it?

Then why do you keep harping on it?



Because like I said it would be nice.....................REAL NICE and there is no reason it shouldn't/couldn't be. Also does the fact I made Twice as much in 2 years of Am worlds as I did At 3 years of Pro mean anything? That doesn't even call entry differences into affect.

My biggest complaint is teeing off at 8 AM every morning. That was nuts!

With only 11 courses really available (that sounds good...ONLY 11 courses!!!) there were few alternatives to having early rounds. Did you REALLY play 8am every day? But, remember too, if the weather had held to its norm, you'd have been thanking the great schedule gods that you weren't starting at noon every day.

This is a huge debate.

I play a lot of ball golf. I also belong to a country club. The
winner of this years club championship got $7000. The guy
that won was a 15 handicap.

My point is we should model ourselves off ball golf more. We need
a real handicapping system. One that works. Once again in ball golf
you get a handicap and then at most tournaments you get 60-80%
of your handicap for the tournament. This allows the better players
to still have an advantage. This is the direction we need to be going.

Chuck K. I know you think about a legit handicapping system.

Also, this pro and am BS is just that. By paying the ams in merchandise
all we are doing is supporting the disc manufactures. Why pay them in plastic?
Why not cash. That is the basis of the problem NOT THE PDGA. Maybe they
could put a few extra thousand into a worlds but that really won't make much
difference.

The reason a lot of C tiers pay more is because they put the profit from
the am side into the pro purse. That is what we do around here. So there
is no incentive to get sponsors because we just sell the overpriced plastic to
the ams at an high price. Simple. The ams get worthless disc and the big
disc makers don't have to work very hard to sell Skeeters and Cro's.

You want to bring money into the game it's time to start letting everyone
compete on a level playing field. Handicap everyone.

If you play ball golf you understand how effective the handicapping system is.
There is bagging but not as much as you might think. At least not in
my experience.

Handicap is great for leagues. I agree. However, is it fair to take strokes away from the guy who practices every day and give it to the weekend warrior? The argument here is the money the pDGA takes in and the way its spent. As it sits now, we elect leaders to make judgments for us, hoping that the decisions are in accordance with the majority. Currently the majority, by far, is the amateur. However, the main focus of worlds is the Open player. Check the main page of this website. And yes, the pDGA comes up with programs and such hoping to spread the word and growth of discgolf. I personally believe the ball has been rolled and now it won't stop! There is no way to stop the growth of discgolf! We are, on a club level(every club in the USA/world) doing more for the sport than our org.. Period. This year alone our club has put on 10 clinics at high schools and our local parks, not to mention our league, doubles, c tiers, nefa events, and an A-tier. We could not do this without the ball that steady ed and the pDGA started rolling. But that is it, the ball is rolling. I think that a strategic placement(WORLDS) of allocated funds would help get us in the limelight for at least a week every year. "read all about it, guy wins $25,000 for throwing a frisbee!"
Ams deserve to win prizes in accordance to there division. I agree becuase the competition would not be there without the 'I won this." SPONSORS WOULD COME TO US IF WE RAISED AWARENESS THROUGH LARGE PAYOUTS!

oh, and stop adding cash to protected divisions.

why not just pay less places instead of the 40% that now cash why not make it 20% or 10% .would less people come?would most people be ok with less people getting in the cash as long as they knew beforehand?in my opinion every player comes to worlds with some thought or secret belief they will somehow find thereselves on the lead card come final round time..or maybe its just me..

Because like I said it would be nice.....................REAL NICE and there is no reason it shouldn't/couldn't be. Also does the fact I made Twice as much in 2 years of Am worlds as I did At 3 years of Pro mean anything? That doesn't even call entry differences into affect.

Wait, let me try this . . . ummm, Yes, it does mean something. For one, playing at the highest Professional level is much more difficult than it is at the highest Amateur level.

Two, am payouts are cheaper than pro payouts. I don't know what the wholesale to retail markup is, but I'd assume an AM payout costs about 30-40% of the same Pro payout number.

In addition, the assumption that growing the payout is good for the sport has not been, but should be proved. As others have said, growing the payout should follow the growth of the sport (not lead it), but to expect it now or too soon, is unreasonable. The sport is growing, but it will take time - even decades. Soccer has been on the rise (and fall) in the USA for over 40 years. It's still small time as far as big sports go, but it's growing as people who grew up with it are now spectators and supporters. If I recall the numbers correctly, more kids in the US play organized soccer than any other sport. Growth of the sport over years should lead to growth in the payout.

Taxing current members isn't likely to be popular.

No way is taking $1 and putting it towards payout a pyramid scheme. You wouldn't know a pyramid scheme if it was right it front of your faces


http://www.willisms.com/archives/brokenpyramidscheme.gif

Chuck K. I know you think about a legit handicapping system.
Sammy, it's already available. The DGU handicapping system uses the same calculation process as PDGA round ratings. All PDGA members now have free DGU subscriptions with their membership this year. If TDs want to run a handicap event, it's ready to go.

All this talk of there needs to be more Am's is complete BS!!!! We just had like 800 ams and still none of that money is being added to our Payout. Would just be more money being made by whoever is running it. If you were to take a concinsous of all the Pro's playing, they are not happy with the payout, the accept it for what it is going into it, like I do.

All this talk of there needs to be more Am's is complete BS!!!! We just had like 800 ams and still none of that money is being added to our Payout. Would just be more money being made by whoever is running it. If you were to take a concinsous of all the Pro's playing, they are not happy with the payout, the accept it for what it is going into it, like I do.



Like I have said before I wouldn't be surprised if 1/2 of the former "tour card" holders would boycott the PDGA for a year if a membership wasn't required for the large events. Hard to vote with your feet when you have to stay within the red lines to play the best events.

BG thought I was out of my mind when I told him that but from what I have heard that is a pretty safe bet.

Just do like the SN.. $2 from every player from every event goes to their respective division in the championship.. last years SNPC(pro champ)'s purse was $22,905....$28,211 if you add in Players pack and other items(http://www.sndg.org/stats/event.php/800)

1st place got 2400... and 2nd got 1300

I think the_kid left happy at that one... http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=7698#Open


Oh, it was a C tier. Only reason it is PDGA is to be a USDGC Qualifier

Sammy, it's already available. The DGU handicapping system uses the same calculation process as PDGA round ratings. All PDGA members now have free DGU subscriptions with their membership this year. If TDs want to run a handicap event, it's ready to go.

Is there a promo code or something for PDGA members? It looks like it's $10/year for DGU.

Would there be all this griping if it was much cheaper
to join the pdga? It seems with the increase in tournaments
revenues should be growing. Maybe increase the fees per tournament
that way the touring pros would not be hit twice.
Once a year fee and then for playing ever weekend.

They would just be charged something smaller every weekend.

I still disagree about the ams playing for merch. Back in the day there
was one division. Open. Now there are 100 divisions. We don't have enough
players to really fill all these divisions. Let's stop playing for worthless merch and
devise a system that we can all compete for cash. Then we grow.

I can't say this enough.

Once again Coda, Matt and now Sammy are missing the point. You continue to argue that the growth of the sport hinges on the pros making more money. Yet the pros, even the elite ones can not draw a crowd outside of other disc golfers, thier friends and family. We've used thier names and images to try and market the sport with no avail. The only event where people will actually pay to see them is the USDGC. And alot of the people who buy tickets for the event do so knowing that with thier ticket purchase they will also receive a disc and T-shirt. Not absolute about the T-shirt now but it was that way a couple of years ago.

The number of pros hasn't changed much in the last 10 years nor has the purses, according to your arguements. Yet the actual number of people playing has increased dramatically. You now find course across the country packed with casual golfers every weekend. Discs are being sold in National sporting goods chains and Walmarts. Ken Climo is a household name, but only in 40,000 households and all of those are or were PDGA members.

The harsh reality is that no one wants to watch competitive disc golf yet. Until the pros or whoever find a way to market themselves and draw in crowds which in return draw in sponsors, then they will always be playing for each others money. Taking away even more money from the ams to help the pro purse is not the answer. Nor is setting aside $X amount of dollars from every entry fee at every tournament. Why not try this. On tournament entry forms have a little box off to the side asking if you would like to make an extra $2 donation to the pro payout at worlds. Leave it up to the players to decide. Somewhat like those little pesky boxes on your tax returns. Who knows maybe there are 1000's of competitive disc golfers out there who will feel sorry for the pros who think they're not getting enough.

As for 1/2 of the pros who would be willing to boycott. Let them. See ya and have a nice day. Because for every touring pro that leaves there will be 2 or 3 willing to take thier place. Heck the competition level would drop meaning it would be easier for a 970 rated pro to start cashing. You would see alot more ams moving up knowing the odds just got alot better. Kind of like a strike in major sports. Everyone wants thier shot at making the starting team.

In addition to the $83000 paid out in cash to the pros (I get $82,500), all 327 pro players received a player package. How about we add the value of this to the pro payout?

Here is a photo of the Am package:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k266/garyE500/worlds%2009/playerpackam.jpg


My Pro player pack looked very much like this except I did not get a bag, a lightning disc nor a "custom stamped special". I also got a foam Frisbee. Not shown is the free Star San Marino Roc players picked up at the flymart. The value of the package was at least $100.00 - but my calculations say more like $114.00 retail.

Player pack values: (all disc prices from Disc Golf World, Gotta Go or Sun King - when possible)
KC Worlds teeshirt - $15.00. These came in a variety of nice colors and were very good quality.
KC Yellow Dry Fit tee shirt - $15.00 at least.
(Yes, you may be able to buy shirts "like" these at WalMart for less, but both shirts had a custom imprint not available anywhere else on Earth. Both were high quality and both had excellent graphics.)
Ching JuJu $14.00
Discraft Stalker $13.00
DGA Shockwave $13.00
Innova Star San Marino Roc $18.00* (*These are currently for sale at Disc Golf World for $35.00. That seems very high! They did have unique hot stamp only available at Worlds.)
Foam Frisbee $10.00 (I couldn't find this for sale - guessed at value)
World's logo large towel with hook $10.00 (I would say more like $12.00. Also a guess)
World's logo mini $3.00 - guess
Stacking Gateway minis $5.00 - guess
World's Logo Coozie $3.00 - guess
Deer whistle $5.00 - guess
Quest dealer brochure $0.00
Coupons - ???

Ok so this adds up to $114.00. ($130.00 if you go collector pricing on the Roc.) That is at least $37,000 additional paid to EVERY single Pro player!!! So the Pro "Payout" was actually closer to $120,000. Apparently some Pros only look at the cash in their pockets and not the value of everything they received.



I doubt you will ever see So Cal host a Pro Worlds. Why would any club want to drain every available volunteer resource to host Pro Worlds just to hear some pro complain for an entire year that he didn't get an umbrella? In So Cal pro players would also get to complain about long drives, traffic, the high cost of hotels and gas. Again, not worth it - even if the PDGA does collect money for the Pro Purse or to minimally pay staff.

All this talk of there needs to be more Am's is complete BS!!!! We just had like 800 ams and still none of that money is being added to our Payout.

Nor should it....my(or any other BS am player's) entry fees should not be used to pad your pockets. I feel pretty sure if you look at any other sport, the Amateurs of that sport are not adding money to pro(open) purses. That is what sponsorship money is for. The more Ams in the sport the faster this sport is going to grow.....because more players means more people will start carrying discs(bad for me since I am a disc retailer), which leads to more people knowing what disc golf is...which leads to more sponsorship dollars for you and the rest of the open players.

With growth among ams going at a nice clip, the next opportunity for our pros to earn income will be teaching either in the educational system, park & rec or their own entrepreneurial efforts running clinics while traveling like Feldberg. In addition, more pay-to-play facilities will have a pro available either running the place or providing guidance. I believe these income opportunities for pros will come before bigger money from sponsorship, if that ever really does happen. I'm surprised more pros haven't run Am only tournaments and included a mini clinic included in the entry fees helping justify lower payouts so the TD actually gets some income from their efforts.

I look at disc golf like wakeboarding was when I started back in the mid-90s. It was fairly small and you saw a limited number of true wakeboard boats on the lake. All they(wakeboarders) ever talked about was getting the sport into the mainstream, having big sponsors, ect. Several years after I got into it, that happened with the X-games and other big Wakeboarding events and people like Mountain Dew and Red Bull throwing big $$ into the sport. Great right? Well......depends on how you look at it. Yeah the pros finally started cashing big checks from events(and endorsements)....but items needed to do the sport on a grass roots level started double or triple the cost. When I started a good wakeboard boat(ski nautique, or mastercraft) new would cost around 30K. After the take off with the X-games and mountain dew becoming a major sponsor ect. Wakeboard boats doubles and in some cases tripled in cost.(some costing as much as 86K for that X-star mastercraft), wakeboards, ropes handles, fat sacks all started cost waaaaaaay more. And to top it off the lakes all became over crowded with to many wakeboard boats. Disc golf could end up the same way if it truely does become as popular as some want it. Discs costing $30 instead of $14.99, baskets costing $800 each instead of the $350 or so they cost now. I'm not saying I don't want the sport to grow, I push the sport pretty hard here in San Angelo and try to get as many people to give it a try as possible....but you gotta be careful what you wish for.

Nor should it....my(or any other BS am player's) entry fees should not be used to pad your pockets. I feel pretty sure if you look at any other sport, the Amateurs of that sport are not adding money to pro(open) purses. That is what sponsorship money is for. The more Ams in the sport the faster this sport is going to grow.....because more players means more people will start carrying discs(bad for me since I am a disc retailer), which leads to more people knowing what disc golf is...which leads to more sponsorship dollars for you and the rest of the open players.

In other sports Am's receive nothing other than a trophy or a pat on the back!!! Never said that the Am's money should be put in our purse, just metioning to the people saying that we need more ams to make this sport bigger with better payouts. The Am players are there already.

Just curious how much money is made from Santioning Agreements, Memberships, Player Dues per Tier level, The Worlds DVD(Where does this money go- It covers the pro field, so does that money go back to our worlds???), non-member fee's... If you look at how many tournaments we have and how much they collect from each one, that is a large amount of money.

What does the PDGA accomplish with membership fees? Click here to find out! (http://www.pdga.com/faq/membership/where-do-my-membership-fees-go)

What does the PDGA accomplish with membership fees? Click here to find out! (http://www.pdga.com/faq/membership/where-do-my-membership-fees-go)

i didnt ask what they accomplish I asked How much????

Never said that the Am's money should be put in our purse.

Then I misunderstood your post....my apologies for that.

Just curious how much money is made from Santioning Agreements, Memberships, Player Dues per Tier level, The Worlds DVD(Where does this money go- It covers the pro field, so does that money go back to our worlds???), non-member fee's... If you look at how many tournaments we have and how much they collect from each one, that is a large amount of money.

These are all good questions. While I still don't think all the money should go to only open fields, some of this seems like it could be put towards worlds across the divisions.

Then I misunderstood your post....my apologies for that.



These are all good questions. While I still don't think all the money should go to only open fields, some of this seems like it could be put towards worlds across the divisions.

My point exactly!! everyone should benefit from what they pay in..

It's entirely possible, perhaps even probable, that disc will never reach major status with national media coverage and highly-paid pros. It may be destined to be a growing recreational sport, with many more courses and recreational players and minor competitions. Regardless of whether we shift large sums of money from one group to another. Regardless of anything else we do.

After all, many other sports, more TV-friendly and played by far more people, have failed to reach major sports status.

I wonder what return on investment is in it for the sponsors. How much money do you think you generate for them? They're not in it thinking they're going to get anything back. It's more of a status thing. This player is on our team and he did better than the player from the other company.
.

"none that I can see I figure I have lost ever dollar I and my company has ever donated"

I wish that I where more than one person. My comments and action will not make a larger impact. I hope to only make small a statement.

After read all this crying I will never again Donate money to event for the pro field. If I can be assured the money will go to the Am's and Am's only then I would think about it.

I wonder what the Disc Manufactors think. after all they sponsor you guys.

Wyatt Coggin
General Manager / Davis Studios.

The money that the PDGA dues pays is peanuts. If you think it is more than that, you have a rude awaking to the real world. For Am's its less than a tank of gas, for pro's, its less than a date. You want to have the organization add $$$, then you have to create money.

You mean 10,000 tanks of gas or dates.



But with all the crying and whining about $3 & $5 fees to cover admin costs (inlcuding this chat room mind you) I doubt that our sorry little cheapskate arses are going to make an impact.

You mean 30,000 (I'm just guessing. Matt?) $3-$5 fees.


I could not even get people to buy into a room that had everything you could ask for on the biggest event in our sport. You really think that if people can't fork over an extra $20/day for 7 nights that they really care?

You mean an extra $140 on top of already thin travel expenses. That estimate is probably way low if you actually searched for the best deal in town.

Why would any club want to drain every available volunteer resource to host Pro Worlds just to hear some pro complain for an entire year that he didn't get an umbrella? In So Cal pro players would also get to complain about long drives, traffic, the high cost of hotels and gas. Again, not worth it - even if the PDGA does collect money for the Pro Purse or to minimally pay staff.

good point Discette... currently we dont have anyone stepping up to run Pro Worlds in 2011 and from the looks of some of the discussion... why would anyone want to?

Agreed. The is no incentive for a club to run a Worlds event, or none that I can see.

All this talk of there needs to be more Am's is complete BS!!!! We just had like 800 ams and still none of that money is being added to our Payout. Would just be more money being made by whoever is running it. If you were to take a concinsous of all the Pro's playing, they are not happy with the payout, the accept it for what it is going into it, like I do.

You and The Kid confirm my perspective that if I have a say, that Charlotte (after the 2012 worlds) will never host a "pro" event again. After all these years I am just disinterested in the whining ,complaining and unappreciative folks who seem to reside mostly in the ranks of the top "pros". I am not simply referring to the current discussion, but also the general way that our elite players conduct themselves on and off the course. I contend that there is no Pro tour but simply a lot of amateurs out playing either for prizes or for each others entree fees. Some of those am's are pretty good and make some money, but I wonder what will happen at retirement? No, there are no pros and I am of the belief that until the amateur ranks swell tremendously, perhaps 100 fold there will not be a pro tour with the ability to raise the money you and others seem to crave so much. We are not there yet and I don't think we are close.

Still, for the love of the sport I will begin to build a new course here in Charlotte tomorrow with the assistance of some very dedicated amateur disc golfers. Then we will move on to another and another and another and another and so on until we have enough courses to host a fine world championships. After which, I will not read the discussion board.

Nothing said here meant in spite, but I do wish that the undertones and overtones were a bit more civil. You know, flies and honey and stuff.

Peace out. Stan

In addition to the $83000 paid out in cash to the pros (I get $82,500), all 327 pro players received a player package. How about we add the value of this to the pro payout?

Here is a photo of the Am package:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k266/garyE500/worlds%2009/playerpackam.jpg


My Pro player pack looked very much like this except I did not get a bag, a lightning disc nor a "custom stamped special". I also got a foam Frisbee. Not shown is the free Star San Marino Roc players picked up at the flymart. The value of the package was at least $100.00 - but my calculations say more like $114.00 retail.

Player pack values: (all disc prices from Disc Golf World, Gotta Go or Sun King - when possible)
KC Worlds teeshirt - $15.00. These came in a variety of nice colors and were very good quality.
KC Yellow Dry Fit tee shirt - $15.00 at least.
(Yes, you may be able to buy shirts "like" these at WalMart for less, but both shirts had a custom imprint not available anywhere else on Earth. Both were high quality and both had excellent graphics.)
Ching JuJu $14.00
Discraft Stalker $13.00
DGA Shockwave $13.00
Innova Star San Marino Roc $18.00* (*These are currently for sale at Disc Golf World for $35.00. That seems very high! They did have unique hot stamp only available at Worlds.)
Foam Frisbee $10.00 (I couldn't find this for sale - guessed at value)
World's logo large towel with hook $10.00 (I would say more like $12.00. Also a guess)
World's logo mini $3.00 - guess
Stacking Gateway minis $5.00 - guess
World's Logo Coozie $3.00 - guess
Deer whistle $5.00 - guess
Quest dealer brochure $0.00
Coupons - ???

Ok so this adds up to $114.00. ($130.00 if you go collector pricing on the Roc.) That is at least $37,000 additional paid to EVERY single Pro player!!! So the Pro "Payout" was actually closer to $120,000. Apparently some Pros only look at the cash in their pockets and not the value of everything they received.



I doubt you will ever see So Cal host a Pro Worlds. Why would any club want to drain every available volunteer resource to host Pro Worlds just to hear some pro complain for an entire year that he didn't get an umbrella? In So Cal pro players would also get to complain about long drives, traffic, the high cost of hotels and gas. Again, not worth it - even if the PDGA does collect money for the Pro Purse or to minimally pay staff.


$114?????????????? Man I would rather have no players pack and $15 more go into the payout per entry. Like I said the best thing was either the Foam wham-o or the deer whistle.

Well spoken, Stan.

If anything, I personally think the two doing most of the whining are only worsening their case amongst the membership and BoD. It's posts like theirs which, if it came down to it, would cause the membership and BoD to vote against any measures to divert more money from the player base and PDGA membership fees towards the Pro Worlds payout.

You and The Kid confirm my perspective that if I have a say, that Charlotte (after the 2012 worlds) will never host a "pro" event again. After all these years I am just disinterested in the whining ,complaining and unappreciative folks who seem to reside mostly in the ranks of the top "pros". I am not simply referring to the current discussion, but also the general way that our elite players conduct themselves on and off the course. I contend that there is no Pro tour but simply a lot of amateurs out playing either for prizes or for each others entree fees. Some of those am's are pretty good and make some money, but I wonder what will happen at retirement? No, there are no pros and I am of the belief that until the amateur ranks swell tremendously, perhaps 100 fold there will not be a pro tour with the ability to raise the money you and others seem to crave so much. We are not there yet and I don't think we are close.

Still, for the love of the sport I will begin to build a new course here in Charlotte tomorrow with the assistance of some very dedicated amateur disc golfers. Then we will move on to another and another and another and another and so on until we have enough courses to host a fine world championships. After which, I will not read the discussion board.

Nothing said here meant in spite, but I do wish that the undertones and overtones were a bit more civil. You know, flies and honey and stuff.

Peace out. Stan


I would have made just as much finishing in 33rd in MPM.....................................

The fact is that we and probably the majority of players who played on the Pro side of the event would like to see the events payout grown to something a little more deserving of the World championship name. Now this doesn't have much to do with the host cities at all as they are the ones who are given all the responsibility by the PDGA but it would be nice if the PDGA would do something more than organize a LAME NT every year and maybe come up with a plan to boost worlds to a point where you must be invited to get in.

Worlds payout is consistently among the flattest and waekest payouts around yet we are seen as whiners for addressing our concerns!

Now you don't have to agree with what we are saying but just because we have a different view of where the sport needs to go doesn't mean we are whiners. I will at least vouch for Coda as he is one of the most respectful of the top golfers on the course and at least doesn't whine about bad shots or spit on baskets because they are having a bad day like many former sportsmanship winners have.

$114?????????????? Man I would rather have no players pack and $15 more go into the payout per entry. Like I said the best thing was either the Foam wham-o or the deer whistle.




And yet last year you complained about not getting a BETTER player pack!!!

Well spoken, Stan.

If anything, I personally think the two doing most of the whining are only worsening their case amongst the membership and BoD. It's posts like theirs which, if it came down to it, would cause the membership and BoD to vote against any measures to divert more money from the player base and PDGA membership fees towards the Pro Worlds payout.



WHINE WHINE WHINE!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah we are all just big whiners who don't like feeling like we are getting ripped off by the payout.

Did you ever answer the question of whether or not your flight and stay was paid for by the PDGA so you could score and take pictures?

I certainly wouldn't whine if they would fly me out...................I would take as many pics as they want.

And yet last year you complained about not getting a BETTER player pack!!!


Best DG umbrella I have ever seen with a worlds logo on it to remember the event by. Now My KC shirt I can't even wear because that ugly stamp on the back. lol

Plus I was mad because we didn't get one and the payout was still WEAK as usual with players 5 spots apart making that same amount of cash...............................I'm about ready to move back down and win some baskets and discs.

Best DG umbrella I have ever seen with a worlds logo on it to remember the event by. Now My KC shirt I can't even wear because that ugly stamp on the back. lol

Plus I was mad because we didn't get one and the payout was still WEAK as usual with players 5 spots apart making that same amount of cash...............................I'm about ready to move back down and win some baskets and discs.

just play SN Events :P

WHINE WHINE WHINE!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah we are all just big whiners who don't like feeling like we are getting ripped off by the payout.

Did you ever answer the question of whether or not your flight and stay was paid for by the PDGA so you could score and take pictures?

I certainly wouldn't whine if they would fly me out...................I would take as many pics as they want.

you may not feel like you're whining and only giving input but it comes across that way when you only point out a perceived problem with no real solution. constructive criticism would at least come with a detailed response to what that person felt was an issue and would be directed directly to the intended party.

If i go on the news saying my city is wasting tax payer money then i'm complaining... if i write a letter to the mayor (or whoever you would write a letter to) with specifics of what I find to be issues then its a little more palatable.

if a possible solution/option was posed/presented that was well thought out and had legs to stand on then maybe people would see it differently.

i dont see the 'take $1 from every players entry throughout the year' as a possible solution since there are obviously a million other factors involved and I'm sure its not as simple as it sounds since you're taking money from one pot to put it in another thus leaving the first pot empty or lesser. it would be like working for one of the disc manufacturers and complaining that you dont get paid enough so they should take $1 from every disc sold to go to your salary and your buddies in the same department. It doesnt work because that money is used to reinvest in the company and its not taking into account the other people that work there.

Best DG umbrella I have ever seen with a worlds logo on it to remember the event by. Now My KC shirt I can't even wear because that ugly stamp on the back. lol

Plus I was mad because we didn't get one and the payout was still WEAK as usual with players 5 spots apart making that same amount of cash...............................I'm about ready to move back down and win some baskets and discs.

this is also a problem that makes it come across as whining ... vague complaints scattered all over the board. I've seen the payout being described as 'WEAK' several times now each time with several meanings... one is that the winner didnt get enough money, another... the payout was too flat and again where the middle of the pack pros or lower levels didnt get enough money. Realistically you can have 1 maybe 2 of those things but not all even if the PDGA added a bit more money. If the goal is to have 1st place take home a boat load then payout top 25%, have the bottom of the 'cashers' only get $50 or something nominal and give a lot more to 1st with a steeeep drop down to 2nd and on down.

I think the goal of worlds is to try and win worlds (in whatever division you have the best shot)... not go there and plan to make money to cover my weeks bills by finishing 50th or whatever. if you want to make money but know you have no real shot at finishing in the top 10 or winning then stay @ the local B tier or club monthly. (not talking about anyone in particular). Want more money for the winner... Give almost all to them... payout top 10 only. A lot would complain but I bet a lot would still come and it might put the sport in the limelight with big payouts that people are talking about.

On the Am side... players pack only with trophies for top 25 and NICE trophies for the top 10 or something and thats it. We Ams dont need a payout (i know i dont speak for all)... if you are an Am at the worlds you are there for a championship... whether thats 16 and under or the advanced division. As an Am @ worlds if you pay X to enter and you get all of it back in a players pack then awesome... you got your moneys worth in merch not to mention the chance to play disc golf 'for free' for the week and compete for a world title and be part of the festivities.

you may not feel like you're whining and only giving input but it comes across that way when you only point out a perceived problem with no real solution. constructive criticism would at least come with a detailed response to what that person felt was an issue and would be directed directly to the intended party.

If i go on the news saying my city is wasting tax payer money then i'm complaining... if i write a letter to the mayor (or whoever you would write a letter to) with specifics of what I find to be issues then its a little more palatable.

if a possible solution/option was posed/presented that was well thought out and had legs to stand on then maybe people would see it differently.

i dont see the 'take $1 from every players entry throughout the year' as a possible solution since there are obviously a million other factors involved and I'm sure its not as simple as it sounds since you're taking money from one pot to put it in another thus leaving the first pot empty or lesser. it would be like working for one of the disc manufacturers and complaining that you dont get paid enough so they should take $1 from every disc sold to go to your salary and your buddies in the same department. It doesnt work because that money is used to reinvest in the company and its not taking into account the other people that work there.



this is also a problem that makes it come across as whining ... vague complaints scattered all over the board. I've seen the payout being described as 'WEAK' several times now each time with several meanings... one is that the winner didnt get enough money, another... the payout was too flat and again where the middle of the pack pros or lower levels didnt get enough money. Realistically you can have 1 maybe 2 of those things but not all even if the PDGA added a bit more money. If the goal is to have 1st place take home a boat load then payout top 25%, have the bottom of the 'cashers' only get $50 or something nominal and give a lot more to 1st with a steeeep drop down to 2nd and on down.

I think the goal of worlds is to try and win worlds (in whatever division you have the best shot)... not go there and plan to make money to cover my weeks bills by finishing 50th or whatever. if you want to make money but know you have no real shot at finishing in the top 10 or winning then stay @ the local B tier or club monthly. (not talking about anyone in particular). Want more money for the winner... Give almost all to them... payout top 10 only. A lot would complain but I bet a lot would still come and it might put the sport in the limelight with big payouts that people are talking about.

On the Am side... players pack only with trophies for top 25 and NICE trophies for the top 10 or something and thats it. We Ams dont need a payout (i know i dont speak for all)... if you are an Am at the worlds you are there for a championship... whether thats 16 and under or the advanced division. As an Am @ worlds if you pay X to enter and you get all of it back in a players pack then awesome... you got your moneys worth in merch not to mention the chance to play disc golf 'for free' for the week and compete for a world title and be part of the festivities.

I am Whining, crying, complaining, whatever you want to call it!!! You could come up with many solutions, but does that really fix the problem!! We don't work for the PDGA, nor do we get paid to fix these sort of problems!!! As we pay the most to the PDGA, i do think we deserve the right to complain about any problem we see!!!

And I still find it funny that the people having a problem with what Matt and I are saying, doesn't even concern them. You don't play pro nor do they attend worlds or half the tournaments we play per year.

It is sad that the apparent solution isn't so apparent to those making the decisions. I don't think anyone playing in a tournament would mind seeing $0.50-$1.00 going to the respective World payout. Maybe it is done only for Pro divisions to start with.

Anything that isn't their idea.............well, it is is bad for us, and we don't really want us. Why not ask the members and let us vote on such a proposal. Let the members speak.

Moving some comments to a thread area with very little traffic, isn't going to change anything. It just demonstrates what's wrong to begin with. (Like the Washington song and dance we'll all been watching recently.)

For anyone wanting a real finale with payout..............SNPC!:D

you may not feel like you're whining and only giving input but it comes across that way when you only point out a perceived problem with no real solution. constructive criticism would at least come with a detailed response to what that person felt was an issue and would be directed directly to the intended party.

If i go on the news saying my city is wasting tax payer money then i'm complaining... if i write a letter to the mayor (or whoever you would write a letter to) with specifics of what I find to be issues then its a little more palatable.

if a possible solution/option was posed/presented that was well thought out and had legs to stand on then maybe people would see it differently.

i dont see the 'take $1 from every players entry throughout the year' as a possible solution since there are obviously a million other factors involved and I'm sure its not as simple as it sounds since you're taking money from one pot to put it in another thus leaving the first pot empty or lesser. it would be like working for one of the disc manufacturers and complaining that you dont get paid enough so they should take $1 from every disc sold to go to your salary and your buddies in the same department. It doesnt work because that money is used to reinvest in the company and its not taking into account the other people that work there.



this is also a problem that makes it come across as whining ... vague complaints scattered all over the board. I've seen the payout being described as 'WEAK' several times now each time with several meanings... one is that the winner didnt get enough money, another... the payout was too flat and again where the middle of the pack pros or lower levels didnt get enough money. Realistically you can have 1 maybe 2 of those things but not all even if the PDGA added a bit more money. If the goal is to have 1st place take home a boat load then payout top 25%, have the bottom of the 'cashers' only get $50 or something nominal and give a lot more to 1st with a steeeep drop down to 2nd and on down.

I think the goal of worlds is to try and win worlds (in whatever division you have the best shot)... not go there and plan to make money to cover my weeks bills by finishing 50th or whatever. if you want to make money but know you have no real shot at finishing in the top 10 or winning then stay @ the local B tier or club monthly. (not talking about anyone in particular). Want more money for the winner... Give almost all to them... payout top 10 only. A lot would complain but I bet a lot would still come and it might put the sport in the limelight with big payouts that people are talking about.

On the Am side... players pack only with trophies for top 25 and NICE trophies for the top 10 or something and thats it. We Ams dont need a payout (i know i dont speak for all)... if you are an Am at the worlds you are there for a championship... whether thats 16 and under or the advanced division. As an Am @ worlds if you pay X to enter and you get all of it back in a players pack then awesome... you got your moneys worth in merch not to mention the chance to play disc golf 'for free' for the week and compete for a world title and be part of the festivities.


Read the 1st post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been on here for 6 months giving my suggestion so to say I have no plan is pretty weak.

$114?????????????? Man I would rather have no players pack and $15 more go into the payout per entry. Like I said the best thing was either the Foam wham-o or the deer whistle.

I would buy into the idea of no players packages for the open division players. Maybe just a nice embroidered dri fit or collared shirt. That would free up some of the pro entry fees for added cash. That would also free up money for the hosting club to at least reimburse some of the volunteers for time and expenses. I think alot of valid points have been made on both sides of the issue, and several valid solutions but I don't think there is any one simple solution to the problem at hand. Maybe several smaller solutions working at once, who knows? But I do have to agree, that a much bigger payout at our World Championship level would look so much more attractive to any prospective sponsors and make us all look more valid. Did that make sense? And I don't even play in the Open division?
One last thing I'd like to mention...Kid, I think you saying that the shirt was ugly was kinda rude and unnecessary. Don't make this personal. This thread is for coming up with a way to make payout at worlds better, and you've made several fine points to the discussion. Just don't belittle yourself or those that worked hard to create those shirts by making it personal.

I would buy into the idea of no players packages for the open division players. Maybe just a nice embroidered dri fit or collared shirt. That would free up some of the pro entry fees for added cash. That would also free up money for the hosting club to at least reimburse some of the volunteers for time and expenses. I think alot of valid points have been made on both sides of the issue, and several valid solutions but I don't think there is any one simple solution to the problem at hand. Maybe several smaller solutions working at once, who knows? But I do have to agree, that a much bigger payout at our World Championship level would look so much more attractive to any prospective sponsors and make us all look more valid. Did that make sense? And I don't even play in the Open division?
One last thing I'd like to mention...Kid, I think you saying that the shirt was ugly was kinda rude and unnecessary. Don't make this personal. This thread is for coming up with a way to make payout at worlds better, and you've made several fine points to the discussion. Just don't belittle yourself or those that worked hard to create those shirts by making it personal.


I was talking about the Innova logo on the back. The point was taken anyway lol

1000+ views in 1 day must mean some people care about this issue!

I would buy into the idea of no players packages for the open division players.
Worlds hosts get discs for pro player packs by default. It's part of the deals with the manufacturers who provide discs and only some provide cash in addition. No way around converting those contributed discs into cash because the agreement with the sponsor is for those discs to go in the player packs and not for sale.

I was talking about the Innova logo on the back. The point was taken anyway lol

1000+ views in 1 day must mean some people care about this issue!

Matt you know that you wear that shirt every chance you can!!! Cause it makes you look cool!!!!!!!!!! When are you going to come to your senses and get away from the DARK SIDE!!

Worlds hosts get discs for pro player packs by default. It's part of the deals with the manufacturers who provide discs and only some provide cash in addition. No way around converting those contributed discs into cash because the agreement with the sponsor is for those discs to go in the player packs and not for sale.



Even though many of those discs end up thrown into an abyss of trees by the players? Actually I parked #14 at Cliff with a #2 Helix after missing it both times during the tournament................and it was like 4in away from the pole.

Really though, there should be a way to to get around giving out discs in Pro packs (unless there is ONE worlds disc) due to the fact that many of them will never even looked at again. If there are some at least make sure they are a cool stamp and not a Production stamp like the Pig we got in 08'.

Player's packs are AWESOME though as long as the player's are satisfied \with the rest of the payout which if you ask many of the Pro players they are not.


Now If I were an AM I would still be a proponent for a SWEET! player's pack and Trophies for the top 25-10-or-5. There is no reason these guys should be walking away with 40 discs (I have Pics to prove it).

If there are some at least make sure they are a cool stamp and not a Production stamp like the Pig we got in 08'.
Remember that they are the sponsor giving us those disc and Worlds is not buying them. Production stamps are on some discs because the sponsor wants it that way and not because the Worlds team was lazy not getting a logo on there.

Remember that they are the sponsor giving us those disc and Worlds is not buying them. Production stamps are on some discs because the sponsor wants it that way and not because the Worlds team was lazy not getting a logo on there.


Well then tell the PDGA to grow a spine and ask if they can negotiate the deal in some other way that will satisfy both interests.............


Or do not use the Player's packs in anyway to calculate final payout percentages. I am not sure if they do but IMO if it is supposed to be 125% payout you should have better payout than EVERY C-tier I play(oh except SNPC but they don't count).

As if the PDGA or any TD is in a position to or should try to dictate to a sponsor the only form you'll accept their sponsorship. :rolleyes:

Player packs are never included in pro payout percentage. It's a bonus.

And I still find it funny that the people having a problem with what Matt and I are saying, doesn't even concern them. You don't play pro nor do they attend worlds or half the tournaments we play per year.

When you start suggesting that a larger piece of the pie is to go to a small group, and that pie in question is baked with the donations, efforts, dues, sponsorships and so on by all pdga members and volunteers, then yes it does concern them. Very much so.

Don't think that the attitudes and postures taken here are not noted by nor only apply to the pros who attended Worlds.

Since this issue is based in the OPEN divisions, why not let them put their money where their mouths are... If the people who are in favor of a HUGE pay-out at Worlds want to do something about it, then let them decide how important of an issue this is...

Take a PDGA vote (Open division ONLY) on whether they want to back their idea of a HUGE Worlds pay-out being of such great importance. The idea could be - that at EVERY PDGA sanctioned event (after 20XX Worlds - up to 20XX Worlds) their would be a REQUIRED 10% of the OPEN divisions pay-out (including any sponsorship $ + additional PDGA required $ for A and B tiers) sent to the PDGA and held just for adding to the Worlds Open pay-out.

So, basically the OPEN division can fund their own cause, and take ALL the credit if the HUGE Worlds pay-out puts disc golf on the national map, BUT ALSO take on the risk that the idea was flawed and does nothing more than create a very happy top 10 finishers of that particular Worlds event.

Also, make available the results of that vote - so, that the information is available to everyone. This would reflect what the majority of the OPEN playing PDGA members think is important in regards to their Worlds pay-out.

Now, think to yourself - what do you think the result of that vote would be? Would the majority of the OPEN division in ALL of the PDGA agree to allow 10% of the OPEN $$ at ALL PDGA sanctioned events be collected to be added to the OPEN Worlds pay-out? What number did you come up with - (maybe 10 for and ALL the rest against?)

Well, the number you honestly come up with, is also the answer to how important a HUGE OPEN Worlds pay-out is to the paying PDGA OPEN divisions.

IMO, I do not think paying a huge amount to the World champion would attract any additional coverage, notice or sponsors. Maybe a 10 second blip on a local news cast or a fleeting mention on ESPN? Bottom-line, if we payed the World champion $100,000 or $10,000 there would be no difference in the amount of National attention.

My personal idea would be to create a vote of where to trim the OPEN divisions Worlds experience. Put into monetary terms the players package/parties/$$ for meeting areas/information availability (scoring/pools), water on courses and food etc... then have the OPEN division vote OUT what they want liquidated into CASH for the pay-out. Equalling - $XX amount for the players pack, now included in pay-out - $XX amount for meeting areas, now included in pay-out (just meet at one of the courses for free) - $XX for information, scores...now included in pay-out (just have the scores posted 2 times - ONLY for the shuffle and semi+finals at a local course for free) - basically, take any funded part of Worlds that the OPEN division deems unneeded and put the funds previously required into the pay-out. This will allow the OPEN division to decide what they desire more - the larger pay-out verses the overall experience and convenience that has been provided through the years.

Just think - the OPEN Worlds could be stripped down to:

1 Players meeting, FREE, at a designated course - all information given by ONE Host city' Staff member. NO players packs/course maps/program of activities/maps to courses etc... - just the pools, times and courses.
2. Play begins - ONE Host city' staff member to give out and collect cards at each of the courses until the shuffle and the same for all rounds after.
(Bring your own water/food/course map/spot shots for your own groups etc...)
3. Shuffle posted at a designated course, free meeting place again, and printed out on ONE large sheet (very cost effective) available to ALL OPEN players.
4. Semis cut posted as above in #3
5. Finals - ONE Host city' staff member will post the final 4 or 5 and they will play the final 9...no film or radio coverage, the crowds following will behave accordingly, just turn in the card when done to same Host city' staff member.
6. Pay-out money will be mailed to you.

Now that would free up A LOT of $$$, sound good?

My point exactly!! everyone should benefit from what they pay in..

Including the organizers, volunteers and so on. If you want to see a group that should be complaining, it is them.

In my opinion, anybody who got to enjoy the Worlds got far more back than what they paid in. And it was mostly other players that graciously paid for it. A gracious thanks would be far more appropriate than a 'I didn't get enough'.

Well then tell the PDGA to grow a spine and ask if they can negotiate the deal in some other way that will satisfy both interests.............


Or do not use the Player's packs in anyway to calculate final payout percentages. I am not sure if they do but IMO if it is supposed to be 125% payout you should have better payout than EVERY C-tier I play(oh except SNPC but they don't count).

Keep in mind that for many of the donators (players with no realistic chance of cashing), getting something in the form of a players pack along with the experience is payback enough to encourage them to continue donating. Keep in mind that since you are playing for other player's money, making sure things are good enough for the bottom 70% is also in your best interest. It helps ensure that your revenue source remains intact. Cut all that out so the top 10 can get a larger slice, and you risk losing your benevolent revenue base.

Oh, and keep on slamming the merch you got. It really helps when the people who donated read these things and then consider how much they want to get involved next year. It isn't a spine that needs growing, but perhaps something attached to the spine a little higher up before making posts on a public forum.

You know what might work?

Make eligibility for the Open division at Worlds by invitation or by qualification only, like the USDGC. That will boost its credibility and desirability instantly. Also, quit having it end on Saturday, that is stoopid. Ball golf majors don't end on Saturday, do they? Think those rich golfers might know something?

The idea to set aside $1 from every 2,3,4, or 5 dollar player pDGA fee collected in the Open division (not any other division mind you) over the year to pad the Worlds purse is legitimate and has indeed been a proven success, the best example being the Southern National Pro Championship which uses this source of funding. Even if no sponsorship is raised by the host city, this should guarantee several thousand dollars to be added the the Open Worlds purse. If the BoD thinks this will take funds away from other pDGA activities, raise the membership for pros a dollar or two to balance it out.

I would buy into the idea of no players packages for the open division players. Maybe just a nice embroidered dri fit or collared shirt. That would free up some of the pro entry fees for added cash. That would also free up money for the hosting club to at least reimburse some of the volunteers for time and expenses. I think alot of valid points have been made on both sides of the issue, and several valid solutions but I don't think there is any one simple solution to the problem at hand. Maybe several smaller solutions working at once, who knows? But I do have to agree, that a much bigger payout at our World Championship level would look so much more attractive to any prospective sponsors and make us all look more valid. Did that make sense? And I don't even play in the Open division?
One last thing I'd like to mention...Kid, I think you saying that the shirt was ugly was kinda rude and unnecessary. Don't make this personal. This thread is for coming up with a way to make payout at worlds better, and you've made several fine points to the discussion. Just don't belittle yourself or those that worked hard to create those shirts by making it personal.

While you might buy into no players pack for open (and you mentioned that you didn't play open), would all of the open competitors feel the same way? Or would it only be the opinion of the top 25% of the players?

Keep in mind as mentioned earlier that many of the players pack items are donated, and either you take the donation or refuse it. There isn't a cash trade involved or entry fees that would be freed up because entry fees never paid for them to begin with.

Innova and Discraft are the most profitable organizations
involved with worlds and our current tournament structure.

The local clubs work hard and make nothing. Even if paid
the time equates to barely any monetary gain.

The PDGA works hard at what they do. Their job is to grow the
game. In my opinion they are doing that well. It is not fair to expect them
to create huge payouts. What they do is expensive. Look at their annual
financial report and you will see the revenue stream is small.

What needs to be discussed is why are we giving so much
out in plastic. Who does that benefit? Why not increase the cash
pool. Cash will bring more sponsors, more people and more recognition.

What if 940 could get their money back? What if "pro" started at 915
or so? Why not make am division trophy only? These are my questions.
More players playing for cash equals larger purses.

The_kid no offense bro but your delivery could be worked on. You have
said some very out of line things in this thread. Your words are not
getting respected because you have shown little respect for
the people on the front line.

Also, quit having it end on Saturday, that is stoopid. Ball golf majors don't end on Saturday, do they? Think those rich golfers might know something?


Yes, they know and the people that promote the event know that golf is their living and they don't have to worry about being back at their real jobs come Monday morning.

Chuck brought up a good point, if the sponsor says put my sponsorship merch in the pro players' pack, it better go in the pro player's pack.

But rather than purchasing and giving other merch out in the Open players' pack, that $$$ should indeed go to the purse instead. This nonsense about catering to the 60% who don't cash is just that, nonsense. Those 60% are likely eligible to play in Advanced or other divisions, and they can always buy souvenir merch if they want.

You can give out more merch in the Masters and other age-protected divisions, but the Open division should be special. It should be different, as it is the toughest division to win. That's probably what separates the USDGC from Worlds, in that at Worlds, Open gets treated like any other division, while at USGDC the whole spotlight is on one division.

What if 940 could get their money back? What if "pro" started at 915
or so? Why not make am division trophy only? These are my questions.
More players playing for cash equals larger purses.
Wrong direction. Raise the bar to 1010 rating to become pro. Add an Expert Am division above Advanced. That means more players are getting prizes for more retail/wholesale differential. That's more money to cover event expenses and allow more of the current amounts of added cash to go to a much smaller pool of true pro players, raising their payouts so they can survive on the road.

Yes, they know and the people that promote the event know that golf is their living and they don't have to worry about being back at their real jobs come Monday morning.

How about this...have every division but Open end on Saturday then. Have the Open semifinals and finals on Sunday. Yeah, maybe the gallery will be a little smaller, but 700 in the gallery versus 1000 in the gallery isn't all that noticeable.

Also, quit having it end on Saturday, that is stoopid. Ball golf majors don't end on Saturday, do they? Think those rich golfers might know something?
I did have PW2007 end on Sunday.

I agree with Chuck, one way to make the Open division better would be to limit it to players that have qualified in some shape or form. Ratings could be a qualification, in addition there could be qualifying tournaments like the ball golf tour holds.

Innova and Discraft are the most profitable organizations
involved with worlds and our current tournament structure.

The local clubs work hard and make nothing. Even if paid
the time equates to barely any monetary gain.

The PDGA works hard at what they do. Their job is to grow the
game. In my opinion they are doing that well. It is not fair to expect them
to create huge payouts. What they do is expensive. Look at their annual
financial report and you will see the revenue stream is small.

What needs to be discussed is why are we giving so much
out in plastic. Who does that benefit? Why not increase the cash
pool. Cash will bring more sponsors, more people and more recognition.

What if 940 could get their money back? What if "pro" started at 915
or so? Why not make am division trophy only? These are my questions.
More players playing for cash equals larger purses.

The_kid no offense bro but your delivery could be worked on. You have
said some very out of line things in this thread. Your words are not
getting respected because you have shown little respect for
the people on the front line.

You could do some of those things, but again it is just taking more from one part of the player base to provide more for another. How much is the donator base willing to part with before they feel that they are not getting back enough from their investment?

I did have PW2007 end on Sunday.

And did the world end TKieffer? HELL NO! Try to get it all done by 4 PM I would say, to help folks get on the road if they really had to.

But rather than purchasing and giving other merch out in the players' pack, that $$$ should indeed go to the purse instead. This nonsense about catering to the 60% who don't cash is just that, nonsense. Those 60% are likely eligible to play in Advanced or other divisions, and they can always buy souvenir merch if they want.
The amount spent on player packs for pros is usually between $2-$4 per player. The main costs are for printing player programs, guides, schedules and maps that has to be spent for communication and meeting sponsor promotion commitments.

That's news to me Chuck. So you're saying everything in the Pro divisions players packs this year was donated by a sponsor? That would be useful information to stop this alleged "whining". Which isn't really whining, it's a discussion of what some people want to see at Worlds. Matt & Coda are not whiners, they're just trying to prod the powers that be into creating a larger pool of cash to compete for at the Worlds.


I'd pay more attention to Worlds if the first place check was 5 digits. I'd be more inclined to attend as well.

Other than providing a travel day, which is more important for more than half of the players who don't qualify for the semis and cash, there are some operational reasons for ending on Saturday. Reserving public courses both Saturday and Sunday can be more expensive. Hotel accommodations are more expensive on weekend days in some cases. Since Highbridge was a private facility with all courses on one site, it was easier than some Worlds sites to end on Sunday.

That's news to me Chuck. So you're saying everything in the Pro divisions players packs this year was donated by a sponsor? That would be useful information to stop this alleged "whining". Which isn't really whining, it's a discussion of what some people want to see at Worlds. Matt & Coda are not whiners, they're just trying to prod the powers that be into creating a larger pool of cash to compete for at the Worlds.
I can't comment specifically for this year, not having seen their financials. But having done Pro Worlds twice from the inside and having helped with or seen the financials for Worlds since 2001, I wasn't guessing on those numbers.

And did the world end TKieffer? HELL NO! Try to get it all done by 4 PM I would say, to help folks get on the road if they really had to.

Ahh, the World would not end, but the TD and the PDGA probably heard enough negative feedback that they decided not to do a Sunday anymore. That and the gallery size most likely suffered and getting folks to hang for the awards ceremony was probably a challenge.

No, the World did not end. Hucking back from Highbridge to get to work on Monday morning must have been fun for many though.

Chuck, that's not valid evidence in my opinion. In fact, I actually forgot that a large part of the field doesn't play at all on Saturday before you said that about the semi's.That's all the more reason to end the Worlds & USDGC on Sunday.

Think about it, if a player doesn't make the semi's, he's not playing any tournament golf on the two most likely days he has off from his job (SAT & SUN). That lacks common sense.

Ahh, the World would not end, but the TD and the PDGA probably heard enough negative feedback that they decided not to do a Sunday anymore.


Ha ha ! Good one Keiffer. Since when has the pDGA ever responded to negative feedback? They even kept The Dooz on staff! I cringed when I saw it was the Dooz who got the interview with Avery the minute after his playoff victory ended. The Dooz has no shame---which is apparently a pDGA staff requirement :)

Oh that tickled me, thanks for that hardy chuckle

I have no problem with the Worlds ending on either weekend day since players need to take all 5 weekdays off either way. In the case of USDGC ending Saturday, I believe it's because Winthrop University would like to have the course taken down Monday. This leaves Sunday for rec players to play the Championship course with the ropes.

And I still find it funny that the people having a problem with what Matt and I are saying, doesn't even concern them. You don't play pro nor do they attend worlds or half the tournaments we play per year.

You don't have to play pro or attend Worlds or play in half the tournaments you play in every year to recognize a sense of entitlement and people looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Look Coda, you're one of the top 100 disc golfers in the world and we all appreciate your talent. I wouldn't go help out at Worlds and NT events every year if I didn't truly appreciate disc golf at its highest levels. But in case you didn't notice, there are thousands of mullet pros with no realistic shot at cashing who are playing in tournaments to support you. There are sponsors donating tens of thousands of dollars every year to the Supertour, NT, and Major tournaments in which you compete to support you. This money doesn't just grow in trees - it comes from people who work for a living, sometimes doing menial labor, and giving it away just to support you. There are disc companies who are donating tens of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise to support you. The PDGA is already taking thousands of dollars and a large chunk of money from membership fees and adding it to the pro purse at Worlds to support you.

But the problem is, that isn't enough. When the state of the sport of disc golf and the state of the economy cannot sustain touring pros, you're expecting otherwise. The sport of disc golf is not at the stage where it can pay every touring pro 50k per year. Heck, it's tough to make even half that. Did you hear that the Arena Football League (which has been around for 20+ years) is folding? That's the state of our economy, and football is something that practically every American recognizes. Until the sport of disc golf grows sufficiently, pyramid schemes which extort $1 from the existing player base are not the answer. All you're doing is trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

Grow the sport of disc golf first, and the sponsorship and the ability to support touring pros will come. Don't try to put the cart before the horse.

Oh great unappreciated moderator, Coda didn't say anything about the entire tour.

He and others like him just can't comprehend that the best-paying Worlds ever was 9 years ago. The sport has grown enormously since then, but the pDGA and its unappreciated judgmental moderators are content that the growth in Worlds payout has definitely lagged the growth in the sport. You're satisfied with mediocrity and don't want to change because you get a free plane ticket to Worlds no matter how low the Worlds payout is. I guess I'd want to keep things the way they are too if I had my hand in the cookie jar like you.

Coda & Matt are trying to find ways to improve Worlds, and you want to paint them as whiners and as people who've done nothing for the sport because they don't march to the pDGA goosestep and tow the official party line that Worlds is perfect! Ha.

And if you ban me for this post it shows how immature you really are.

And, the $1 proposition is not a pyramid scheme. A pyramid scheme doesn't pay back 100% like the $1 proposition would. Quit distorting the facts, if you please.

You don't have to play pro or attend Worlds or play in half the tournaments you play in every year to recognize a sense of entitlement and people looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Look Coda, you're one of the top 100 disc golfers in the world and we all appreciate your talent. I wouldn't go help out at Worlds and NT events every year if I didn't truly appreciate disc golf at its highest levels. But in case you didn't notice, there are thousands of mullet pros with no realistic shot at cashing who are playing in tournaments to support you. There are sponsors donating tens of thousands of dollars every year to the Supertour, NT, and Major tournaments in which you compete to support you. This money doesn't just grow in trees - it comes from people who work for a living, sometimes doing menial labor, and giving it away just to support you. There are disc companies who are donating tens of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise to support you. The PDGA is already taking thousands of dollars and a large chunk of money from membership fees and adding it to the pro purse at Worlds to support you.

But the problem is, that isn't enough. When the state of the sport of disc golf and the state of the economy cannot sustain touring pros, you're expecting otherwise. The sport of disc golf is not at the stage where it can pay every touring pro 50k per year. Heck, it's tough to make even half that. Did you hear that the Arena Football League (which has been around for 20+ years) is folding? That's the state of our economy, and football is something that practically every American recognizes. Until the sport of disc golf grows sufficiently, pyramid schemes which extort $1 from the existing player base are not the answer. All you're doing is trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

Grow the sport of disc golf first, and the sponsorship and the ability to support touring pros will come. Don't try to put the cart before the horse.



I would actually put Coda in the top ten................but that would assume there was enough incentive for players like him to practice everyday!

At this point I don't take the game too seriously due to the fact there is no money in it and even if I were to practice 2 hours a day like I had in the past that would get me maybe an extra $1000 a year out of 30 events.

If there was more incentive to go to worlds and place well than just a pat on the back maybe some of the better players around would actually put some effort into becoming the best players they can be so that they can have a chance at some decent cash. At this point you can beat someone by 20 and only make a few dollars more or beat someone by 10 spots and only make $50 more.

$615 for beating 92% of the field is stooooopid when the entry is $215. B-tier with a $70 entry would give that same player $325 or more for beating that much of the field and that is just with $500 added. With the 125% payout required for the event it sure seems like most players aren't walking away with much.

When you add in the fact this is a week long event is where most people have beef as it is the most expensive event to play in by far yet it is also one of the worst paying events.

What was the total amount of sponsorship dollars for the event? Cash and merch?

And I still find it funny that the people having a problem with what Matt and I are saying, doesn't even concern them. You don't play pro nor do they attend worlds or half the tournaments we play per year.

you're seriously going there? sorry myself and others in on this discussion aren't as good as you and don't play as many tournaments as you do. I'm sure I haven't been playing this sport as long as you have but would like to see it go in the right direction and would hope to be in the Pro ranks and playing pro worlds some day. Even if I never thought I could get even close to that level I would still like to think everyone's opinion holds weight. I've spotted for you @ USDGC for years now... i've driven you around in golf carts early in the morning and late in the evening using my personal vacation days from work. I've put in countless hours of unpaid technical work to help get the clashdvd series going for no other reason than to help support the top pros featured in the series. I'll be helping plan and do work behind the scenes for Worlds in 2012 here in Charlotte and unless the planets align and I somehow get in on Monday will be there @ USDGC again this year volunteering.

if our opinions don't count then why even bother voicing it here for this group to see?... seems that a majority of the message board comes from all of the other divisions and that a lot of top pros dont bother with the message board for various reasons. If you only want opinions from your own kind then maybe start a huge email list with all of the top pro email addresses you can find and start lobbying.

on that note ... If ever there was a time in history for things to be in your favor (and those in your position) i would think it would be now with Feldberg being elected to the board. I've heard (2nd hand) that Feldberg has had ideas for years now about how things could be and its awesome that he finally stood up and ran and got elected. Hopefully he can be a voice to represent an area that people have felt under represented in. (no sarcasm).

I don't have a problem with what you and Matt are saying... more money for the Pros... sure... sounds great! I'm all for it and even though I'm normally high up in the Am ranks have said i'd be fine with no payout for the Ams. If you could poll everyone on here I don't think many have a problem with what you are saying... its how you are saying it.

I think comparing worlds to C tiers isn't going to get us anywhere but looking @ USDGC (like some have) and maybe Marshall St (now Vibram) might go a long way to potentially help... what can be emulated... what works for them that can be employed @ worlds

The idea of taxing tournaments throughout the year to fund a bigger Worlds payout is not new. It has been bantered around for years and consistently rejected because it would have little long term benefit. Double the payouts of the top 25 finishers at this year's Worlds (or triple or quadruple them depending on the taxing scheme employed) and all you have are the same players with more cash in their pockets: no additional media coverage, no new courses in the ground, no better image of the sport in the eyes of the public.

The top players in the game are already at the top of the food chain. Collectively, they are sponsored and they win most of the Pro events they attend. Across the board they take more from the game than they give to it. Someone who puts in courses or runs events or teaches new players is more valuable to the game than someone who throws far and makes putts. This is not an indictment or an insult of our top players. They spend their time perfecting their games much more than promoting the sport. It is what they need to do to compete and survive. Even so the Pros would do better if they were more charming and less demanding.

Growing the game will eventually lead to a true professional class of disc golfers. That day is not close to dawning. Trying to artificially accelerate the coming of that day will not work. Until spectators will pay to see Pros compete there will not be a true professional division.

The most difficult aspect of running a tournament is acquiring sponsorship from outside the sport. If the Pros wanted to help their own cause and boost the payouts they could try tackling that task.

If you could poll everyone on here I don't think many have a problem with what you are saying... its how you are saying it.

http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/the-internet-in-china-great-firewall-cartoon.jpg


Careful Coda, looks like you're about to be reported for hurting an underappreciated volunteer's feelings. Normal human qualities like emotions are discouraged on pDGA forums when they do not promote the official pDGA Party Line!

Sarcasm in volumes, but must not use , Scotty, beam me out. Real things to do for our sport without horncoilos to interfere. Oops.

The top players in the game are already at the top of the food chain. Collectively, they are sponsored and they win most of the Pro events they attend. Across the board they take more from the game than they give to it. Someone who puts in courses or runs events or teaches new players is more valuable to the game than someone who throws far and makes putts. This is not an indictment or an insult of our top players.


Like heck it isn't an insult. It is. Feldberg and Korver volunteered to be on the BoD, did they not? Are you saying they're adding no value to the sport? Are you saying they're just taking from the sport? Your mind is extremely limited to paint such a poor picture of our pros. Climo gives back, the Readings give back, the Jenkins give back, and on and on and on---your statement is false, arrogant, and insulting.

You are an example of the dinosaur-age thinking that dominates most of the pDGA. You're scared to try new things. The Worlds is stuck in 2000 because of dinosaurs like you who can't adapt to innovation.

I remind the panel that this discussion is not about payout on the whole pDGA tour---it is about increasing the payout and quality experience of one tournament, the Worlds, specifically the Open Division Championship at Worlds. The $1 proposal is not difficult to implement, and should be put to a vote---I know democracy isn't the pDGA way, but hey, I feel optimistic tonight when I see a couple of young pros trying to shape the pDGA for the better.

Yes we are years away from having several pros making a decent living. That shouldn't stop us from making the Worlds better.

after going off on a tangent to post a cartoon and take a poke @ me you're going to be the one to keep things on track?! my posts have been trying to do just that... help these guys get heard for what it seems they are trying to say instead of what people are hearing or reading into in the posts. i might report you for the 'personal attack' where you accuse me of being involved with 'the official party line' thats just dirty/low! ;) (and no I woudn't report you and have never reported anyone)

There are people reading this (like Stan... well maybe he's not reading anymore) who are preparing to run a Pro worlds in the next few years. This thread could be a think tank to help them prepare and possibly implement ideas brought up that could improve Worlds.

along these lines... this is the right direction... get something put together and get it on the table. with the '$1 proposal' what are the specifics? ive heard a bunch of versions... is this the take a buck from every pros entry from every tourney during the year to go to pro payout? (thats not a dollar of the pdga fees but a dollar on top of that right?). I've heard people say the PDGA wont listen but even if the PDGA doesn't want to support it couldn't TDs offer to do this if enough Pros showed this is what they wanted? maybe if the TDs made it known they were going to be doing this the Pros that want this to happen could make a point of trying to get people (and themselves) at that event. could be a good grassroots way to get it off the ground.

would this money also still just go into the pro payout as added cash? if thats the case unfortunately it still might not help even with more money depending on the ends people are trying to reach. it sounded like people also have issues with the structure of the payout. if thats a huge concern then it wouldn't help with that. people could still finish 10 places in front of someone and make the same money (it would just more a little more money). The flat-ness of the payout sounds like its its own beast from what I gather. I personally have no clue how that could be corrected (fairly).

Stack you are a better man than I am. just one more reason I think the world of you.

Just thought I would let it be known that there was a thread on DGR that is titled "Why should I join the PDGA" and the majority of the people who have posted have basically said it isn't really worth it unless you play 5 events a year so you recoop the $50.

51 posts on that thread just today as well and maybe the PDGA should listen to the reasons many people decide not to join/renew so that they can adjust to meet these player's needs.

way too nice Wyatt ... I can only hope I can give to this sport what you've done so far (volunteering, sponsoring, hosting thigns... raising a world champ :) keep it up and I'm looking forward to seeing you and Andrew again (might not be until USDGC unless you guys make it down for US Dubs)

way too nice Wyatt ... I can only hope I can give to this sport what you've done so far (volunteering, sponsoring, hosting thigns... raising a world champ :) keep it up and I'm looking forward to seeing you and Andrew again (might not be until USDGC unless you guys make it down for US Dubs)

Thank you. Andrew is Playing the US doubles. So I will be caddying, He will be caddying for David Jr. at the USDGC. We will see you then.

I personally thought it was a bad decision to raise fees
on both ends. Higher membership fees and
then higher non-member tournament fees. I personally have
only played in three events this year. So far I am $20
in the hole but I love this sport.

Most disc golfers are not PDGA members. Without the power
in numbers thing we are not as strong as we could be.

I know it's hard to take criticism. Especially from younger people
but things must change. You can't keep saying disc golf won't be
this or that until people are willing to pay to watch the sport.

Poker, X-treme sports, World's toughest man, Cage fighting all
broke into the mainstream before they generated the revenues
that they do today. They had some visionaries that took their
passions to new levels. CNBC did a nice job on cage fighting.

I think the activity in thread is a good thing. People are emotional
about this game.

One other point. Somebody said host the world every other year.
Not a bad idea. It seems to work well for the other tournaments
that follow that philosophy.

after going off on a tangent to post a cartoon and take a poke @ me you're going to be the one to keep things on track?! my posts have been trying to do just that... help these guys get heard for what it seems they are trying to say instead of what people are hearing or reading into in the posts. i might report you for the 'personal attack' where you accuse me of being involved with 'the official party line' thats just dirty/low! ;) (and no I woudn't report you and have never reported anyone)

There are people reading this (like Stan... well maybe he's not reading anymore) who are preparing to run a Pro worlds in the next few years. This thread could be a think tank to help them prepare and possibly implement ideas brought up that could improve Worlds.

along these lines... this is the right direction... get something put together and get it on the table. with the '$1 proposal' what are the specifics? ive heard a bunch of versions... is this the take a buck from every pros entry from every tourney during the year to go to pro payout? (thats not a dollar of the pdga fees but a dollar on top of that right?). I've heard people say the PDGA wont listen but even if the PDGA doesn't want to support it couldn't TDs offer to do this if enough Pros showed this is what they wanted? maybe if the TDs made it known they were going to be doing this the Pros that want this to happen could make a point of trying to get people (and themselves) at that event. could be a good grassroots way to get it off the ground.

would this money also still just go into the pro payout as added cash? if thats the case unfortunately it still might not help even with more money depending on the ends people are trying to reach. it sounded like people also have issues with the structure of the payout. if thats a huge concern then it wouldn't help with that. people could still finish 10 places in front of someone and make the same money (it would just more a little more money). The flat-ness of the payout sounds like its its own beast from what I gather. I personally have no clue how that could be corrected (fairly).

First of all, since the many on the panel seem to think they are holier than thou because they dedicate so much of their lives to making the sport better, I'll throw in just one example of the work that I've done:

http://www.nola.com/picayunes/t-p/ejpicayunes/index.ssf?/base//news-16/1219556046176550.xml&coll=1

So what would the plan be? It's really simple. I don't know the numbers it could generate, so I will guess---perhaps Chuck can find the actual numbers later.

The plan: take $1 from every $2,3,4, or $5 per-player fee that the pDGA collects from the Open division at every tournament all year long, and set it aside to add to the Open Division at Worlds the following year. No fees collected/skimmed from any other division at all, just Open. No extra $1 fee.

I guess that this would raise somewhere in the area of $10,000. Hand it over to the Worlds TD, you know, the guy who's the most holy martyr-like individual the world has ever known, whose opinion therefore means more than a common regular pDGA member, and let that TD add the 10 grand to the Open division purse.

All Hail Stan McDaniel! I hope to one day kiss his holy feet.

First of all, since the many on the panel seem to think they are holier than thou because they dedicate so much of their lives to making the sport better, I'll throw in just one example of the work that I've done:

http://www.nola.com/picayunes/t-p/ej...550.xml&coll=1 (http://www.nola.com/picayunes/t-p/ejpicayunes/index.ssf?/base//news-16/1219556046176550.xml&coll=1)

The plan: take $1 from every $2,3,4, or $5 per-player fee that the pDGA collects from the Open division at every tournament all year long, and set it aside to add to the Open Division at Worlds the following year. No fees collected/skimmed from any other division at all, just Open. No extra $1 fee.
Based on your efforts in the link, it would seem that the money collected from your Worlds proposal could better be used to replace trees at other courses in the country versus raise the Open purse. Which would have more positive impact on the sport? And Thanks for what you did to help that course.

Like heck it isn't an insult. It is. Feldberg and Korver volunteered to be on the BoD, did they not? Are you saying they're adding no value to the sport? Are you saying they're just taking from the sport? Your mind is extremely limited to paint such a poor picture of our pros. Climo gives back, the Readings give back, the Jenkins give back, and on and on and on---your statement is false, arrogant, and insulting.

You are an example of the dinosaur-age thinking that dominates most of the pDGA. You're scared to try new things. The Worlds is stuck in 2000 because of dinosaurs like you who can't adapt to innovation.


Nah, it is not meant as an insult even if someone chooses to take it that way. And feel free to hate on me and anyone else who disagrees with you all you wish.

The line which seemed to set you off is" Across the board they take more from the game than they give to it." The same can be said about me as well, except I am not talented enough to be one of the top Pros in the game. I think the game gives me more than I give to it. I think I am healthier and happier because of disc golf. I also cash at most events and take from the limited tangible benefits available in our still emerging sport.

I think all great players love the game and many try hard to give back. My statement is not intended to belittle their efforts. It also doesn't change the fact they sit at the top of the food chain. They garner what little cash and status there is to be had. Compare that to the TD's and Board Members and Club Presidents and Volunteers who put in the thankless hours they do.

Back to the topic. Worlds payouts have to come from somewhere, either entry fees or sponsorship. To tax the players during the year just makes them unwilling sponsors. Personally I don't care because I don't rely on disc golf for income but not everyone has that luxury, especially in a tough economy.

So if it doesn't affect me than why do I care enough to jump in this discussion? Because some folks think this proposal is a small step in the right direction with no real drawbacks. It seems to me it is a small step with no significant upside and and a substantial disadvantage. I view the upside as small because it has no lasting impact, just a few bucks more in the pockets of those who already benefit most from the game. I view the downside as substantial because it is offensive to many players who already donate the most. I view their continued goodwill as an important asset to the PDGA and all of disc golf.

When people want to watch disc golf then sponsors will step forward along with TV coverage. Until that happens, please explain what genie you hope will pop out of which bottle to bring major sponsorship. I may be a dinosaur so use small works and simple concepts so I can understand it. By the way, I sincerely hope you have the plan to make that happen. Adding 10 grand to the Open purse at Worlds by taxing tournament entry fees? Now how does that give any lasting impact?

If the Open players want a bigger payout and are unwilling to do the hard job of pursuing sponsorship outside the sport then the easy answer is increase the entry fees. Double the fees and you double the purse. Triple the fees and you triple the purse. This, of course, sounds like a stiff tax on the non-cashing players at Worlds. Sure but the payout has to come from somewhere.

Very nice Thank you Mr. Ellis

Nah, it is not meant as an insult even if someone chooses to take it that way. And feel free to hate on me and anyone else who disagrees with you all you wish.

The line which seemed to set you off is" Across the board they take more from the game than they give to it." The same can be said about me as well, except I am not talented enough to be one of the top Pros in the game. I think the game gives me more than I give to it. I think I am healthier and happier because of disc golf. I also cash at most events and take from the limited tangible benefits available in our still emerging sport.

So disc golf is just a magical game that rewards everyone who plays it? I see your point, everyone takes more from the game than they give. It's so magical. I see that it wasn't an insult, just a magical Lizard theory.


Back to the topic. Worlds payouts have to come from somewhere, either entry fees or sponsorship. To tax the players during the year just makes them unwilling sponsors.

You mean like the mandatory pDGA membership tax to play at NTs and majors?

So if it doesn't affect me than why do I care enough to jump in this discussion? Because some folks think this proposal is a small step in the right direction with no real drawbacks. It seems to me it is a small step with no significant upside and and a substantial disadvantage. I view the upside as small because it has no lasting impact, just a few bucks more in the pockets of those who already benefit most from the game. I view the downside as substantial because it is offensive to many players who already donate the most.

You have absolutely no proof that "it is offensive to many players". Magically pulling wild guesses out of the air does not prove a thing. I guess Wyatt likes Disney movies where magic happens all the time.

When people want to watch disc golf then sponsors will step forward along with TV coverage. Until that happens, please explain what genie you hope will pop out of which bottle to bring major sponsorship. I may be a dinosaur so use small works and simple concepts so I can understand it. By the way, I sincerely hope you have the plan to make that happen. Adding 10 grand to the Open purse at Worlds by taxing tournament entry fees? Now how does that give any lasting impact?

I don't think I ever said that my modest proposal would attract major sponsorship. Maybe you could quote where I said that, Mr. Magic Dinosaur? May I call you Barney?

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s179/Wheeljak/Blog/Barney.jpg

Wow, in your magic world even you pick up chicks. I can only dream of such a magic place. So no, I won't say from where major sponsorship will appear, because that was never the topic. The topic was trying to boost Worlds payout because KC paid out less than AA in 2000 with wayyyyyy more income than AA.

If the Open players want a bigger payout and are unwilling to do the hard job of pursuing sponsorship outside the sport then the easy answer is increase the entry fees. Double the fees and you double the purse. Triple the fees and you triple the purse. This, of course, sounds like a stiff tax on the non-cashing players at Worlds. Sure but the payout has to come from somewhere.

Funny, I believe the entry fee for Worlds this year was $215 for Open, similar to the USDGC fee of $230. Yet USDGC payout far exceeds the Worlds. So I guess I just shot your little theory down eh Barney? Are you in the Hall of Fame? That would explain the blinders you wear.

And to think, USDGC doesn't have hundreds of amateurs to donate either like Worlds. Hmmm, that's kinda interesting that the Worlds payout is so small in comparison. I wonder, how does the USDGC run such a more efficient and rewarding operation? Hmm, I wonder why more top pros play the USDGC? I wonder why the pros rate USDGC as better than the Worlds? Gee, I can't think of any possible reason. Maybe y'all can help me?

Based on your efforts in the link, it would seem that the money collected from your Worlds proposal could better be used to replace trees at other courses in the country versus raise the Open purse. Which would have more positive impact on the sport? And Thanks for what you did to help that course.


I can honestly say I have no idea which would have a more positive impact. It seems you are proposing that pros play for charity, never keeping anything for themselves. We know that's unrealistic.

Chuck, you have the database. Can you run the numbers to see how many Open entries there were in 2008 at all ABC & NT-tier events? I'm curious to see if 10,000 is a low number.

No. I don't have access to the database. You would have to ask Gentry for an estimate.

I thought you used a database to crunch the ratings. You mean the ratings really are just made up?

Roger handles the ratings database which is interfaced as needed with the PDGA database handled by Gentry.

[QUOTE=underparmike;1389336]


You have absolutely no proof that "it is offensive to many players". Magically pulling wild guesses out of the air does not prove a thing. I guess Wyatt likes Disney movies where magic happens all the time.

QUOTE]

No I like knowing who is insulting me "a former Disc Golf Sponsor" on the Message board.

But it appears I don't get everthing I want either.

And to think, USDGC doesn't have hundreds of amateurs to donate either like Worlds.

CE Roc

I've been a USDGC sponsor since 2003. They must be doing something right...

Mike Kernan,

I am not sure what I have done to set you off. If we have ever met or had prior dealings I have no memory of it. Evidently just disagreeing with you on a topic has caused you to mock me. So be it but it seems like an odd way to defend a proposal for increasing the payouts at Worlds.

I read the press clippings you posted, touting your own efforts. You must be very proud. And it must be all right to do harm in other ways if you plant trees on your home course.

The USDGC is funded by the CE Roc
and Innova.
It's also Innova's main tournament in their home
turf. It is their way of giving back to the players.

It's an example that could be used to increase
pro purses. Sell something that goes directly
to the pay out. This is one of the nicer things Innova
does with the CFR disc. They sell them to you for $5.00
or so and you sell them for $20 and put the money in the
pay out. At least that is what we do in our club.

Everyone here has some valid points but this thread
has a lot of name calling and assumptions that have
just been taken to far.

We should be discussing ideas of how to increase purses at
World's and other tournaments. Not saying that nobody wants
to gather sponsorship dollar. That is just passing the buck
in my opinion.

I gather from all the smoke that most everyone would not mind to see the worlds purse increase.
Some would like to see it raised significantly.
Many have concerns the cost would fall to players already at their financial limits.
and a few would like any added money to go to other areas as well.
There may even be a couple others that see no need to change.
(Pardon if my simplification offends anyone.)

Our Association has not refused to pursue this direction, but needs to have proposals presented them that have considered ALL the opinions before the issue.

I would ask the ED, Brian Graham to form a committee to address this.

There are methods that can raise monies without burdening our brothers and sisters with more fees.

Who wants to be on this committee?

I'll help,
Bob Graham

I think debating the benefit to the sport of expending any effort to specifically increase the Open purse at Worlds, other than from those who directly benefit, should be determined first. Open players already can directly try to acquire sponsors specifically to boost Open purses in the same way Peter Shive has gotten/donated money to boost payouts for seniors in selected events.

Or, maybe touring players could coordinate a giant bake sale throughout the season to raise some money for both Open men and women? They could make browni... uh, buy wholesale baked goods for resale as they're on the road practicing and giving clinics. They'll earn the retail/wholesale differential just like TDs get from Ams to contribute toward Worlds purses. Or, more seriously, how about setting up Open players to sell a special hotstamp disc for the next Worlds starting right after the previous Worlds and contributing the profits toward their purse? Sort of the Open players own CFR program. That's little different from what the "dinosauric" movers and shakers on here including Kernan (41) have done to raise money for baskets, cement tee pads or trees.

The fundamental question though is whether anyone but Open players, possibly just those who regularly attend Worlds, should assist in this effort? Is there any benefit to the sport for bigger purses? Will anyone out there care besides those who win the money? Is your local course at risk of being pulled if purses don't get bigger? If pro events disappear? If Climo's name isn't on a disc anymore? Will schools reject implementing EDGE programs if they can't show students how much money they'll make if they learn disc skills really well versus learning a fun lifetime sport?

I don't expect people with completely unrealistic expectations of this sport to understand my satirical ways.

I type and post for the members of the audience who know that most of the elder pDGA "statesmen" are often delusional, elitist and narrow-minded oversensitive codgers who refuse to listen to reason or suggestions.

Let's talk about Wyatt's completely unreasonable stance. Apparently, Wyatt is upset that not every disc golfer in the world is a model citizen, therefore he is now a former sponsor. But Wyatt is so narrow-minded he forgets that there is no sports organization that has 100% angels as members. Michael Vick's in the NFL---I guess Wyatt won't be sponsoring the NFL. I guess Wyatt won't sponsor those pot-smoking NBA basketball players. I guess Wyatt won't be sponsoring the steroid-pumping ML Baseball folks.

Wyatt, you're a perfect example of the hasty generalization so often displayed by pDGA dinosaurs who can't even take being called Barney in jest. And Lizard, I'm not necessarily proud of my press clippings, I just wanted to show some credentials here to the folks like Stan who demonstrate a snobby attitude because they think they're the only ones who've ever lifted a shovel at their local course.



Mike,
I agree with you that I am , too often, oversensitive and also a codger. It is very easy to interpret written words in the worst possible light, especially if the medium is sarcasm. Not knowing the person who is writing makes it difficult to ascertain that person's real motives and objectives behind the words. Sarcasm seems to draw out a defensive mechanism in me. In unguarded moments my initial response to sarcasm, whether face to face or on a discussion board, is to attack. I apologize for that weakness in my character and I will try to think longer and better about the words I use, especially in a sensitive heated up debate.
As for being narrow minded, well, perhaps. I think that if the truth were on the table that most of us are probably guilty of that to some extent. Once again, I will agree with you, although I can cite more examples of my narrow mindedness than you have had a chance to see. There have been numerous times when club members here in Charlotte have had ideas that I pooh-poohed initially and those ideas turned out to be great ideas. For example, having our own club discussion board on our website, kudos to Dave Marchant. Another example was old hole #16 at Winthrop that was up on the rock ledge. Harold posed that to me as a pin location and I was unable to open my mind to see the possibilities and I tried to discourage him. Good thing he did not listen to me as the disc golf community was able to play that incredible hole for many years, no thanks to me. However, I am not always narrow minded. I do have the capacity to listen and I do exercise that ability. I find that I am more inclined to hear and give consideration to a new idea when it is presented in a manner that does not bring out my defense mechanism, like sarcasm. (I love sarcasm, but usually only in the context of verbal sparring between friends. Sarcasm has only served to exacerbate the tension in conflicts that I have participated in, and I was frequently the one using the sarcasm.)
I do, however, refute your charge that I am an elitist and delusional and that I refuse to listen to reason or suggestions. (Perhaps if you would define "elitist" for me I might better understand. As for delusional, I think only from time to time, and this may be on of them, we will see.) As I stated earlier, there have been some times that I have not listened or been receptive to suggestions, but I think I usually give consideration to the thoughts of others. However, I will let those who know me well be the judge of that. As for reason, that is a tricky thing! Reason to you may not be reason to me. Reason is a slippery bugger. The human mind has quite a capacity to justify its worst actions and thoughts in the name of reason.
Finally, (whew!), that was a cool article and my hat is off to you and your club for the tree planting. I am sure that went a long way to currying public favor and the favor of your park department. I hope you had the help of a small backhoe to dig the holes for the rootballs of those trees. I applaud even the smallest efforts of anyone who lifts a hand to do anything for our sport. So, my final response is to address this line in one of your previous posts, "I just wanted to show some credentials here to the folks like Stan who demonstrate a snobby attitude because they think they're the only ones who've ever lifted a shovel at their local course." I am not so delusional as to think that I am the God's great gift to disc golf. The point I try to make is that there are a lot of people out there who work hard to build the sport at a grassroots level who have had extremely distasteful experiences with "tops pros". To spend months in preparation for an event by working on the courses and planning the events and raising money (this means lots of locals, not just me) and then have the aforesaid players complain and be disrespectful to TD's, spotters, cameramen and spectators is not appreciated by me or any of our club members. I have seen it so many times now here and elsewhere that I am more interested in building the prize winning amateur side of the sport.
As a parting thought, I had already taken notice of the payout before this thread started and had done a lot of number crunching on my own out of curiosity. In no way am I saying that KC did anything wrong, nor the PDGA. It just seemed like at the World Championships that a $10K first place would have been a better number and that for those on down the line should have made enough to more than cover their week or two weeks expenses. I don't know what to do to get our sport there. I have been reading all these posts because the topic is of interest to me, especially since the tournament will be here in a few short years. I am open to ideas and have been giving them consideration. I would suggest, respectfully, that you and others consider keeping the ideas coming, and perhaps would consider abandoning the frequent use of sarcasm. I don't think it helps you state your case any better. Sarcasm may make you feel better, (as it does me from time to time), but the sarcastic phrases can become associated with your ideas. This could keep good ideas from coming to fruition or delay them from coming to fruition.

Sincerely, Stan

Just three questions.

1. How much money is needed to make a significant difference in overall payout?
2. How do we best raise that amount of money, and who bears the primary burden for raising it?
3. Is a larger Pro purse at worlds really the best use of that amount of money toward the future of the sport?

Having trouble repling will try again

I don't expect people with completely unrealistic expectations of this sport to understand my satirical ways.

I type and post for the members of the audience who know that most of the elder pDGA "statesmen" are often delusional, elitist and narrow-minded oversensitive codgers who refuse to listen to reason or suggestions.

Let's talk about Wyatt's completely unreasonable stance. Apparently, Wyatt is upset that not every disc golfer in the world is a model citizen, therefore he is now a former sponsor. But Wyatt is so narrow-minded he forgets that there is no sports organization that has 100% angels as members. Michael Vick's in the NFL---I guess Wyatt won't be sponsoring the NFL. I guess Wyatt won't sponsor those pot-smoking NBA basketball players. I guess Wyatt won't be sponsoring the steroid-pumping ML Baseball folks.

Wyatt, you're a perfect example of the hasty generalization so often displayed by pDGA dinosaurs who can't even take being called Barney in jest. And Lizard, I'm not necessarily proud of my press clippings, I just wanted to show some credentials here to the folks like Stan who demonstrate a snobby attitude because they think they're the only ones who've ever lifted a shovel at their local course.

Finally you are getting something right. I don�t watch the N�thug�ba, Don�t like Pro football. If Pros can not follow the rules of the game or society then they should be kicked out of the game.

I can be hasty as you call it. I raised all the money to start my business. I take all the risk.

After the expenses, Taxes, Etc. are paid 100% of what is left is mine to do with as I please.

There was a time before this thread that donating to Disc Golf Pleased me. But no longer.

The emails have been sent to those I supported in the past.

Emails to those asking me for support in the future have been replied to.

Thanks guys you are saving me so much money.

Wyatt coggin Jr.
General Manager / Davis Studios

Stan, thanks for a thoughtful response. As I walked around my local course today I realized that I am also guilty of some of the things I see in others, and I empathize greatly with just about everything you just typed. I do admire and respect your work, and wish you continued success. Funny that you would mention hole 16 at Winthrop, I got called for a falling putt there once, falling out of the bamboo during the best round I ever shot at USDGC.

I'm going to back away slowly from this thread so others won't react in fear---I know I'm quite a handful and quite a challenge for many who haven't lived my unsheltered, unrepentant life. Y'all have at it, I've said my peace.

Since I'm certain that there will be some sort of witch hunt now that Wyatt and his unrealistic sponsorship has exited, feel free to blame ol' underparmike. Feel free to make me the villian, it's a role I have often played.

Or, look at me as someone who helped Wyatt realize his money can not change the unchangeable. Perhaps with the money I've saved you Wyatt you could buy me a lifetime pDGA membership to enlighten others like you about the value of one's time? Perhaps you might spend it on a charity? I'm sorry a couple disc golfers couldn't keep quiet about the strangely low payout at the Worlds this year.

Perhaps, if we can reform the pDGA so that we can establish an agreement that the Worlds TD will earn a certain known-beforehand dollar figure for his efforts, instead of the current system of mysterious slight-of-hand, and these so-called "whiners" know ahead of time exactly what the payout will be, would you consider sponsoring disc golf again? I hope you'll consider sponsoring again after the pDGA is reformed, with transparent financials, liberty, and justice for all.

Wyatt
I run a business and I donate money to every
tournament in my city. I do it because I love
the game. I don't like all the players that play
this game. You don't have to agree with everyone
all the time. If stop donating to something you obviously
are passionate about because of a difference of opinion
you are not better than what you loath.

This thread is filled with valid points on both sides.
Take care my friend.

Stan, thanks for a thoughtful response. As I walked around my local course today I realized that I am also guilty of some of the things I see in others, and I empathize greatly with just about everything you just typed. I do admire and respect your work, and wish you continued success. Funny that you would mention hole 16 at Winthrop, I got called for a falling putt there once, falling out of the bamboo during the best round I ever shot at USDGC.

I'm going to back away slowly from this thread so others won't react in fear---I know I'm quite a handful and quite a challenge for many who haven't lived my unsheltered, unrepentant life. Y'all have at it, I've said my peace.

Since I'm certain that there will be some sort of witch hunt now that Wyatt and his unrealistic sponsorship has exited, feel free to blame ol' underparmike. Feel free to make me the villian, it's a role I have often played.

Or, look at me as someone who helped Wyatt realize his money can not change the unchangeable. Perhaps with the money I've saved you Wyatt you could buy me a lifetime pDGA membership to enlighten others like you about the value of one's time? Perhaps you might spend it on a charity? I'm sorry a couple disc golfers couldn't keep quiet about the strangely low payout at the Worlds this year.

Perhaps, if we can reform the pDGA so that we can establish an agreement that the Worlds TD will earn a certain known-beforehand dollar figure for his efforts, instead of the current system of mysterious slight-of-hand, and these so-called "whiners" know ahead of time exactly what the payout will be, would you consider sponsoring disc golf again? I hope you'll consider sponsoring again after the pDGA is reformed, with transparent financials, liberty, and justice for all.

Mike or who ever you are. I am not a poster person for the pdga. I'm a member to play events (in the past years, 10 to 12 events a year) . which I am playing less and less. I am a 836 rated or lower play. with bad ankles. two day four round events really hurt me I can hardly walk come Sunday afternoon. I would rather caddy for my son.

I play the events I do for my son (who is 13 yrs old and has a future in Disc Golf). I hold him to a very high standard of conduct. but you may have guessed that. This high standard is for the future of Disc Golf.

Mike you are not the only one on the thread that turned me agaisnt sponsoring Disc Golf. If and I mean a very large if . I or my company ever sponsors Disc Golf again it will be for Am's only.

Like I said earlier to Stack and let me include Stan. They are both better men than I am. I know them. they have already forgiven all that has been said on this board about them.

Some day I hope I am as good a man as those two are now.

Wyatt
I run a business and I donate money to every
tournament in my city. I do it because I love
the game. I don't like all the players that play
this game. You don't have to agree with everyone
all the time. If stop donating to something you obviously
are passionate about because of a difference of opinion
you are not better than what you loath.

This thread is filled with valid points on both sides.
Take care my friend.

It not about the Difference of opinions. this world would be a bad place to live if everyone had the same opinion as myself.


The point is Pros talking about the bad payout. they know the payout was going to be bad. they went anyway. I think it's slap in the face to

It not about the Difference of opinions. this would be a bad place to live if everyone had the same opinion as myself.

The point is Pros talking about the bad payout. they know the payout was going to be bad. they went anyway. when I play an event that I don't like. for the reason it was not run well, or I got factory second disc as pay out. or what ever reason. I don't go back. I think it's slap in the face to all the ones that donate, time, money, and or products.

I will contiue to give disc to beginners. I will even encourage them to join the PDGA to increase our membership numbers so that some day we will be a force that large companies what to target there money and advertising at.

I just feel that day is a long way off. from the comments I have recieved on this thread I don't think my small donations will impact the sport that much.

But like the others on this thread. I also have to make a statement.

so out of 2812 registered pros the 10 or so that post here have changed your opinion of sponsering events for pros...wonder how the other 98% feel .i think you let a select few cloud your judgement.

so out of 2812 registered pros the 10 or so that post here have changed your opinion of sponsering events for pros...wonder how the other 98% feel .i think you let a select few cloud your judgement.

I wish others would let us know.

but you missed the one thing I picked up on.

it's more than 10.

98% did not come on here and say you guys are going about this the wrong way. lets not attack people. lets talk so we can fix the problem. so that means they agreed with the other 10.

my idea is simple. require more added cash for the World championship. if a clubs decides to take it on they have to come up with the new amount of added cash to be the host city, club, org.

I wish others would let us know.

but you miss the one thing I picked up on.

it's more than 10.

98% did not come on here and say you guys are going about this the wrong way. lets not attack people. lets talk so we can fix the problem. so that means they agreed with others.

my idea is simple. require more added cash for the World championship. if a clubs decides to take it on they have to come up with the new amount of added cash to be the host city, club, org.



Actually it is FAR less than 10...............at least on this thread. Coda and myself are the only two and Mike cna be included but he is an evil SN player.

Like Chuck said there aren't too many cities who want to host Pro worlds due to the burden it brings which is partially why i have tried to come up with a way to help the TDs out so that they are not given the sole responsibility for finding extra cash.

Yes I knew the payout would be poor and yes I still went but that is mainly because I am pretty dang competitive and like to play in very large fields. Now that in no way should prevent me from voicing my concerns about the unusual payout that seems to always occur at these events!

I'm sure Andrew walked away with a good bit more than I did this year..............I know I sure made more in merch while playing Jr than I have in 3 years of playing MPO.

Sorry if I said anything to make you think all Pros are ungrateful but that was not the intent as all I would like to see is another event in which we can use to reach the greater public and to me one way to do that is to increase the purse so that it may create more excitement.

Also I just want an answer to how someone can finish halfway up in the cash and barely get their entry back? If that is so much to turn you off from sponsoring events I apologize but to me this is a legitimate question which never seems to be answered by those in power.

so if you dont come on a message board and defend someone or cant afford a computer then there not pros you care about?
ok lets say its 50 people bashing you which when i looked back into this thread i didnt see much more than 10 that posted negatively then the 90% instead of the 98% should rally together and come on the message board to defend you or your taking your ball and going home?

Actually it is FAR less than 10...............at least on this thread. Coda and myself are the only two and Mike cna be included but he is an evil SN player.

Like Chuck said there aren't too many cities who want to host Pro worlds due to the burden it brings which is partially why i have tried to come up with a way to help the TDs out so that they are not given the sole responsibility for finding extra cash.

Yes I knew the payout would be poor and yes I still went but that is mainly because I am pretty dang competitive and like to play in very large fields. Now that in no way should prevent me from voicing my concerns about the unusual payout that seems to always occur at these events!

I'm sure Andrew walked away with a good bit more than I did this year..............I know I sure made more in merch while playing Jr than I have in 3 years of playing MPO.

Sorry if I said anything to make you think all Pros are ungrateful but that was not the intent as all I would like to see is another event in which we can use to reach the greater public and to me one way to do that is to increase the purse so that it may create more excitement.

Also I just want an answer to how someone can finish halfway up in the cash and barely get their entry back? If that is so much to turn you off from sponsoring events I apologize but to me this is a legitimate question which never seems to be answered by those in power.

Kid first off Thanks for the good deal you gave Andrew on the disc he bought form you. He is very pleased with both the disc and the price.

what turned me off for sponsoring Disc Golf in the future was not your opinion I am glade you have one. most people your age do have one these days. It was you way of delivering your message. When I say you I am not singling you out. add those you listed as well.

But you guys are not alone. you are just the ones that pushed me over the edge.

Please keep having an opinion, Please keep sharing your Opinion.

Please work on the way you state your Opinion.

Wyatt Coggin jr.
General manager / Davis Studios
President / CEC Engineering company.

so if you dont come on a message board and defend someone or cant afford a computer then there not pros you care about?
ok lets say its 50 people bashing you which when i looked back into this thread i didnt see much more than 10 that posted negatively then the 90% instead of the 98% should rally together and come on the message board to defend you or your taking your ball and going home?

If you are trying to be like the other to drag this out thats fine.

I don't care to be nor do i need to be defended.

my comments are on par with all the others on this thread. some good some bad.

some way to broad some not detailed enough.

the Problems with message boards it's easier to type than to think. It easy to say things to people you will never meet.

I hope we find the answers I have a son that will be a pro in about five years. but he also knows Disc Golf is only a good part time job. He knows he needs a 9 to 5 job.

Wyatt is entitled to his opinion and his choice of how he spends his money.

He does not need to justify his decision to anyone here, and his reason is just as valid as the concerns that started this thread.

As far as I am concerned, every available dollar the PDGA has should be going toward programs designed to get Disc Golf in front of school kids and into scholastic competition, and any other use is hurting the future of the sport.

That is my take on how we should spend the $1 from every player fee if we were to split it off for a single reason.

As far as I am concerned, every available dollar the PDGA has should be going toward programs designed to get Disc Golf in front of school kids and into scholastic competition, and any other use is hurting the future of the sport.I agree that this would be the most effective way to increase the number of people playing the game. I also agree that increasing the number of people playing the game is necessary to attract outside sponsorship for our pros. However, we are so far away from that goal, I don't think pursuing that goal will benefit any current players. In fact, the disruptions caused by rapid growth might be more undesirable than the status quo.

Just three questions.
3. Is a larger Pro purse at worlds really the best use of that amount of money toward the future of the sport?

That assumes you can only do one thing. Why can you only spend the money on one thing that's the best for the future. The pragmatic approach is to pursue multiple options, funnelling money into larger purses, getting dics golf as a sport in schools, getting more courses, etc. All of these are good appraoches and we won't know which one is the "best" until we try them. Again we are taking about 10% of the players fees paid to the PDGA from sanctioned tourneys. That still leaves a ton of room for other programs.

I've only been on this discussion board for 6 or 7 years, but I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone advocate anything broader than a single-item agenda. Are you sure you're in the right place?

That said, if we take $1 of the current player fee from all pros in all tournaments, to go towards the worlds payout, and that's $10,000 (I assume the figure given earlier is correct)---that's $10,000 less in the PDGA budget. I'm not sure there's a difference between just adding "$10,000 to Worlds payout" to the budget from the general fund. $10,000 of something else would have to go; I'm sure a lot of people could give their personal wish list of who to fire or what to cut out, but would it be worth it? Add $10,000 to this year's Worlds payout (to $93,000, or $130,000 with players package), and does this particular discussion change?

Take $1 out of every player fee, Pro & Am, and it's a much bigger chunk of the PDGA budget. Same thing, except it would significantly increase the Worlds payout. Whether that would be a good use of tens of thousands of dollars, I'm not sure. I suspect most Ams would think not.

Add $1 per player to the existing fee, and you've opened a bigger can of worms.

Ultimately, until we get outside money---if we ever do---we're still just playing for each other's entry fees, and this just shuffles the numbers a bit. A little less payout, or a little more fees, at B & C tiers, a little more payout at Worlds.

I've only been on this discussion board for 6 or 7 years, but I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone advocate anything broader than a single-item agenda. Are you sure you're in the right place?

That said, if we take $1 of the current player fee from all pros in all tournaments, to go towards the worlds payout, and that's $10,000 (I assume the figure given earlier is correct)---that's $10,000 less in the PDGA budget. I'm not sure there's a difference between just adding "$10,000 to Worlds payout" to the budget from the general fund. $10,000 of something else would have to go; I'm sure a lot of people could give their personal wish list of who to fire or what to cut out, but would it be worth it? Add $10,000 to this year's Worlds payout (to $93,000, or $130,000 with players package), and does this particular discussion change?

Take $1 out of every player fee, Pro & Am, and it's a much bigger chunk of the PDGA budget. Same thing, except it would significantly increase the Worlds payout. Whether that would be a good use of tens of thousands of dollars, I'm not sure. I suspect most Ams would think not.

Add $1 per player to the existing fee, and you've opened a bigger can of worms.

Ultimately, until we get outside money---if we ever do---we're still just playing for each other's entry fees, and this just shuffles the numbers a bit. A little less payout, or a little more fees, at B & C tiers, a little more payout at Worlds.

$10,000 is a gross under estimation if $1 per player per tourney was put into the purse.

What is ridiculous is that things never change as as Craig has stated the payouts are actually worse than they were when he last attended in 96'.

Worlds never has been advertised as a big payout event. Its more of a convention with a shot to be a World champion. Still, I wouldnt mind some of my dues to get pumped into Worlds...not just Pro payouts though.

What is also ridiculous is we have an ED who seems oblivious to what is going on within the membership and has yet to realize that not everyone throws in their $50-$75 per year because they love the PDGA and all that is does but that many of those same players would like to see major changes in the way our sport is run by the org.

I think our ED is far from oblivious. Convers and Korver are on the board...now Feldberg. If all these same players still want major changes to happen, start lobbying these guys. Hey, I wish you guys did have your own org and Tour...but for now, no one wants to watch our best players except most of us Am's (or Am's playing in Pro divisions) so your stuck with us for a while longer.

What is also ridiculous is that I will be back next year whether the payouts have improved or not. The PDGA knows that people will continue to come to worlds regardless of the payout and that is why things will never change.

The PDGA knows that the biggest majority of players that have/will come to Worlds do so because their return on investment is not measured by just the end payout, but by the entire Worlds experience. I think most players like it just the way it is. The payout probably doesnt even factor into most of their idea of RoI.

Maybe one year we could just boycott the event but I feel most of us love the sport too much to miss such a large event.

Try it. I think the outcome of that would surprise you.

Like I said it is a DG flytrap and I made twice as much selling my personal discs than I made in payout.

Interesting you mention this.... Every table at the fly mart was the same set of rectangle, gray topped tables with the same drape cloth over them...except yours. It was circular, and you were kind of out of place...against the wall in the back. Did you pay for your spot just like every other vendor did? I hope so....if not, thats a pretty low ball move IMO.

Actually UPM, Matt and Coda are whining, that doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong. Philosophically, we are looking at opposing sides to an issue, one side believes strongly that if we bring more money into the Pro purse, we'll grow the sport. Their argument has no logical base to it, i.e., there's never been a test of the case where you created a money worthy sport by throwing... money at it. Other than their assertion this will work, there's no evidence that it will. The other side argues that organic growth of the sport by fostering the rec and am player base is the best way to grow our sport. There's tons of evidence this works, we've seen it work in numerous other sports that grew up into big sports. The problem with this method is that it takes time, time, time.

That said, I think that the proposal that we set up a method to raise extra capital for the pro purse is a good one. Although the base of the PDGA is am, nonetheless, Matt and Coda and many others are correct, we are the ProDGA. I don't want my direct money, i.e. membership fees going to this extra capital, but the notion of an extra dollar per event for this strikes me as a) cheap, b) a good compromise, c) a great way to test their theory. I likes the notion of only making it Pro applicable, but honestly, since Pros are about making money, and many Pros aren't going to go to Worlds, i.e. benefit from this donation, it might make more sense to apply the fee to the ams. Part of your membership is supporting the growth of the Pro aspect of the sport and if you don't like it, don't join. The reality is that today, more so than ever, there are lots of avenues for ams or recs to play in that aren't PDGA in nature. You've got lots of opportunities to play in many events and if you step up to play in the more competitive events, you're at least dreaming about playing at a high level.

I might suggest, rather than charging Pros this tax, instead, you make it A tier applicable (and maybe B too). For sure, you are pulling from the people with aspirations in that pool. I don't think it's unfair to recognize what the PDGA is, and what people who play in top level events are aiming for.

Not sure how easy it would be to simply have a check box on the annual member renewal form to donate to programs. One option would be Open Pro purse, another might be course development and another might be promotion. Of course this option has been there to support the Education Foundation and also the IDGC development fund and it doesn't sound like they are getting much added to those. Perhaps the Birdie and Ace Club members would be able to allocate part of their contributions to specific programs as mentioned?

$10,000 is a gross under estimation if $1 per player per tourney was put into the purse.

Perhaps.

I was trying to avoid researching this, and just used the figure given by one of the $1 advocates in an earlier post. Now I've tried to research it, but can't find it.

The $10,000 was for $1 fee for Pros, or perhaps Open, only. I think I found a chart that showed about 70,000 total PDGA competitors in 2008, so I'd guess 20,000 Pros ($20,000)? And $70,000 if we "taxed" everyone $1 to contribute to the Worlds?

If someone's go the figures on how many tournament registrations, Pro & Advanced, the PDGA has in a year, it would help my post be more specific---but wouldn't change it significantly.

Lyle makes good points. But as one of the "grassroots" advocates, I will point out that there's also evidence of sports which have had lots of growth at the participation level without raising their top levels to the point of TV & career professionals. While I believe the way to go is to grow the bottom until there are enough eyes to get the media's, and sponsor's, interest, I'm far from certain it would work, either.

In tapping the rank & file for $1 per tournament, or whatever, how much must be raised to boost the Worlds purse enough to draw attention? $100,000, to roughly double it? Will a $20,000 1st place be enough?

Surely enough to make the winner happier, but to raise the sport's profile?

Just wonderin'

Try it. I think the outcome of that would surprise you.


I honestly don't believe the PDGA would care one bit if no one showed for pro worlds. They would probably be relieved.

ps. This is not really a criticism of the PDGA, just what I see as the natural extension of years of policy.

Interesting you mention this.... Every table at the fly mart was the same set of rectangle, gray topped tables with the same drape cloth over them...except yours. It was circular, and you were kind of out of place...against the wall in the back. Did you pay for your spot just like every other vendor did? I hope so....if not, thats a pretty low ball move IMO.

Of course I paid for my table..........................which was reserved for me then given to someone else right before I got there. I was offered my money back.........which I didn't want.......and instead I ended up with two small tables in the back of the room for my SAME $100.

Also the oblivious thing about BG has to do with the fact I feel he has no clue what most Pros would like to see from our ORG and from talking to him he is a vewry nice guy but I am not sure he realizes there is any dissatisfaction among many Pro and AM members.

This thread with 2000+ views and the DGR thread will 11 pages proves to me that there are many who aren't too happy yet the PDGA doesn't seem to do anything to listen or appease these members. Next year will be my 10th year as a member and I think the sport has progressed because of the local clubs getting courses in the ground and not because of the PDGA.

So I just saw that our "good" friend Mikey was suspended from the board for 1 year and I was wanting to know if it were due to anything he had said on this thread.

If so that is pretty sad considering he was actually somewhat nice3 for once and did not say anything I would construe as a personal attack. Now I have been personally attacked before by former Board members and when my request was submitted nothing was done to them so I kinda see a double-standard here.

Anyway I would appreciate a PM from any of the Mods who may know what post he was suspended for. I figure that would be Mr. Lagrassa.,

This thread with 2000+ views and the DGR thread will 11 pages proves to me that there are many who aren't too happy yet the PDGA doesn't seem to do anything to listen or appease these members.

That is really a strange proof. Does that mean that everyone is interested in learning how to throw an MRV?

Some things never change on this discussion board. Nothing but constant b�tching and whining.

And the dollar thing: no thank you. $10,000 of my PDGA fees is plenty enough of a commitment. I don't want to send $15 more per year towards pro payout. I do plenty of subsidizing with my am entry fees locally and that $10k stipend to Worlds plus the PDGA money that goes to the NT events. I didn't ever feel like b�tching about that before, but Matt and Coda's posts here are reminding me that supporting pro payouts are a waste of money. :mad:

Go find someone to sponosor you if you think you are a frickin' pro. Nobody wants to pay to see your whiny cry-baby arses play disc golf. Go out and change some minds already instead of trying to put your hands even deeper into my pocket!

Some things never change on this discussion board. Nothing but constant b�tching and whining.

And the dollar thing: no thank you. $10,000 of my PDGA fees is plenty enough of a commitment. I don't want to send $15 more per year towards pro payout. I do plenty of subsidizing with my am entry fees locally and that $10k stipend to Worlds plus the PDGA money that goes to the NT events. I didn't ever feel like b�tching about that before, but Matt and Coda's posts here are reminding me that supporting pro payouts are a waste of money. :mad:

Go find someone to sponosor you if you think you are a frickin' pro. Nobody wants to pay to see your whiny cry-baby arses play disc golf. Go out and change some minds already instead of trying to put your hands even deeper into my pocket!


Who said YOUR money would go to OUR payout? Our money will go to OUR payout.........unless you plan on moving up sometime soon.

10k for worlds isn't just Pro because if so that means there was only 3k added besides that.

I'm sorry that you feel I am crying when repeatedly worlds is seen as having weak payout and we would just like to change that up a bit. Nobody wants to see poker player's play but when money is involved excitement can be made.

You act as if we are not also giving money to the PDGA all i am asking for is a program which the players can personally benefit from if they decide to attend worlds.

If someone is really against $1 per entry going to fund our World Championships but are fine with $3-$5 from each entry going to fund........something.............that is somewhat hypocritical.

It now makes sense to me why there were 100 more MPO players at the 2000 worlds.....................because they no longer attend due to the fact they feel it isn't worth it. I personally will continue to go to worlds regardless but like I said just because people continue to attend doesn't mean they feel it is as good as it can be.

Sorry you feel I am whining when in a total of 3 pro worlds i have made $120 profit over my entries while finishing halfway up in the cash. Do you think Craig is a whiner too Rhett when he said he once made less than his entry while finishing a good way into the cash?

I can't wait for SNPC where I can play HORRIBLE and still make $120 profit.

BTW you may feel that by calling us "whiners" you can dismiss anything we have to say but look how well that has been working with the whole Medical issue going on in our country.

One more thing, for a org composed of so many hippies and those who have a more liberal ideology when it comes to many issues the PDGA sure is conservative when it comes managing our sport. That is one thing I always found to be funny as many member's political beliefs and DG beliefs are exactly the opposite (including mine).

So I just saw that our "good" friend Mikey was suspended from the board for 1 year and I was wanting to know if it were due to anything he had said on this thread.

If so that is pretty sad considering he was actually somewhat nice for once and did not say anything I would construe as a personal attack.

Not surprising, since as far as I can tell, PDGA can't do anything right. The idea that your "good friend" was being nice has as much basis in reality as the idea that we can grow the sport by taxing the rest of the membership in pursuit of a bigger payout.

One more thing, for a org composed of so many hippies and those who have a more liberal ideology when it comes to many issues the PDGA sure is conservative when it comes managing our sport. .

So, are you saying that if the org lived up to it's "true hippie roots", it would create a tax so that a few players could drink better beer in their post-worlds love-jam-fest o' disc?? I'm trying to reconcile this with what I know of "hippie culture" and, like the idea that Mikey was being nice . . . . it's way off :)

A few things:

1.) Not everyone has the chance to play at USDGC, so lets stop comparing it to Worlds. Its great you got invited or earned your bid to go there, congrats, but its a giant commercial for Innova. Yeah, they are going to dig deep to make it the best tourney ever, all they have to do is pay better than Worlds.

2.) How cool does this sound: "Yeah, that guy there is Ken Climo. Hes the greatest player in the history of our game. He has like 10 discs with his signature on it. Won 12 championships!....And still works at Best Buy."

IMO:

The PDGA doesnt care about Pro players, only banking off thier image and using them to trick people into spending thousands of man hours trying to get sponsorship for a tournament they make the most off of - with the smallest amount of work. If you want the PDGA to take notice, write it in the memo area of the check you are paying them.

Am players who are strong supporters of the PDGA dont care about you either. They hope to christ you show up at that event they are going to in hopes they can watch you or get you to sign a disc. Most play a few events a year, have full time jobs and no ability or desire to try to live the Pro lifestyle. All they know is there better be a player pack.

Could the PDGA make life easier on the Pros and ( gasp! ) contribute more to making it possible that there is a living in this game? Yep. Will they? Nope. You will still come play events anyways, and you will always need someone to tell you what that round was worth.


New Motto? : The PDGA: Cashing in every event this year!

[QUOTE=bcary93;1389549]So, are you saying that if the org lived up to it's "true hippie roots", QUOTE]


And here I thought that was the image that was keeping us off TV?

It’s good to know that there is passion for DG at all levels.
It’s good to see that people are willing to share their concerns and voice their opinions.
It’s disheartening to see the obvious “us and them” culture that has developed when divisional play and structure comes into a discussion.

It seems to me there are many valid concerns that need only be approached pragmatically in order to start to generate answers, and provide direction to attain our goals.

I stated earlier in this thread one of the reasons why I no longer participate in PDGA Worlds. It doesn’t mean I don’t wish it were more indicative of overall growth in the sport. I didn’t include my opinions on divisional play – as it is just as big – if not a bigger can of worms to try and include in the current discussion.

At this point, I think we can all acknowledge that the Worlds and a few select events enjoy a modest subsidy from the organization. I think there are few who would suggest that finding ways to increase that subsidy would be entirely negative – aside from just funneling it to the top 25% of money winners. I find it a little surprising that when confronted with the plea for a more significant payout at a WORLD championships – that so many assume that money raised for such an event would automatically be going into the pockets of top pros. The reality of event expenses is such that the bigger the event – the more the little stuff costs – which eats into the money raised for the event. And unless there are either sponsors, or working capital to start off with – a heavy burden is placed on the host club to raise funds for the “stuff” that goes into the tournament that is less tangible than the actual purse (that stuff includes players packs, staff, tournament supplies like printing programs, scorecards, water coolers, computers, radios, video equipment, meeting rooms, etc. etc.). To me – before we can discuss the viability or wisdom in funneling money into specific events, we need a better understanding of the revenue mechanisms available to us, and how they are currently working (or not working) when put to those ends.

Not having a working understanding of the budget – it’s difficult to enumerate, but certain items can be readily identified for the purpose of inquiry and discussion. Feel free to copy/paste, and fill in the blanks – as I don’t intend, or claim to be able to address this completely.

Q1. What are the PDGA’s current revenue mechanisms?
A1. PDGA Membership fees, Event Sanctioning Fees, Event player fees, Non-member player fees, PDGA Merchandising, Web site advertising…………

Q2. What are the PDGA’s current expenditures?
A2. Augusta DG complex and HQ’s – debt service and staff, advertising, communications / magazine / mailing, web site, marshal’s program, innovative grants program, consultants for marketing, ratings, others?? Travel, NT support staff, event subsidies (Pro/Am Worlds – I’d need a list to really know what if any monies are being spent on specific events).

Q3. Are monies used for event subsidies taken from the general fund, or is there a “set aside” source for those dollars?
A3. Bueller?

Q4. How should monies that are currently set aside for events, or additional monies that could be set aside for events be used?
A4. First and foremost – those monies should be used in advance as seed money. It should be used as a way to generate MORE money. Merchandising is perhaps the most direct and effective way that events promote themselves. Commemoratives, and limited edition “stuff” is the stuff people want to buy. But if Worlds hosts wait until tournament week to try and unload their “stuff” – they have severely limited themselves in garnering a financial windfall, and really can’t know what their gains are until weeks end – so that’s not very effective. Merchandising needs to be full on running a year in advance – with products and artwork changing every 3 months – so there is always a limited edition “something” being sold. Secondly, the money should be used for tournament amenities that benefit ALL the players – could be a player party, a banquet, ancillary activities, but also needs to be stuff like organized press releases and advertising (press releases are usually free – but don’t guarantee exposure). We need to suck it up and actually PAY for advertising if we actually expect people to become aware of what we are doing (To me the best place to advertise would be those airline magazines that you are almost forced to read every time you get on a plane – lots of exposure there, and very “destination” focused.) Lastly, when monies are added to the purse, there should be 2 main considerations – having a goal for what the champion should earn will assist the event organizers in determining the spread/slope of the overall purse (so that’s important), but more important is to start from the bottom up. No player that ever “cashes” at Worlds should get less than they paid to play – that’s just plain insulting. So when building a purse distribution – start there – make it fair and appealing for the MAJORITY of cashers, and THEN work towards meeting the goal of the champion’s pay day.

Q5. What sort of revenue could be easily attained through current mechanisms?
A5. From a pure conjecture standpoint – if there are upwards of 1000 sanctioned events a year – and those events averaged out to 50 players per – any “Worlds tax” that could be garnered through either existing or new player fees could be figured pretty easily. If every player paid a .25cent fee at every event (given the above numbers) – that’s 12.5K – all the way up to $1 a head is 50K (personally I think these numbers are conservatively low – as a huge percentage of events seem to be filling up with much more than 50 players these days). Seems to me the easiest mechanism to use is not a new one, but one that is already in place – and that’s the collecting of fees that the TD’s are already doing. So then the Question becomes – is it a new fee? Is it a set aside from existing fees? Or is it a voluntary pay in fee? Any of the above is plausible – one option may be more pragmatic than another based on how those dollars are currently budgeted.

Ultimately the concept being discussed by Matt and Coda is the desire for the PDGA WORLDS to represent the best that the PDGA has to offer. The best venues, the best organization, the best amenities, the best payout. This is the ONLY event of the year with the PDGA’s name on the front of it. Approaching that from the angle of laying the events success on the host clubs lap is NOT the best way to attain those things. Playing an integral role may be difficult from a manpower standpoint – playing a significant role from a financial backing standpoint seems to be a more reasonable approach for success. Enabling our host club financially will ALWAYS yield a better result than just playing the staff support role come tournament time.

Q6. What does the World Championship mean to the PDGA?
A6. To me it’s just a name at this point. It’s not about crowning the best player – it’s about crowning the best player in 18 different categories (lame), regardless of whether they shoot similar scores. It’s about making everybody feel good by coming and being able to participate (didn’t qualify – no worries – come on down!) But what does it mean to the PDGA? I really couldn’t say – seems that their biggest worry is just being able to find someone to hold the event every year – and that trumps the necessity of setting up the mechanisms that would ensure it’s success.

Well said Gang.

I like the idea of selling more "stuff".
Over a year you could raise some enough
money to probably match the current contribution.

To what degree to the large attendance numbers ("everyone come!") and flat payouts ("cash to as many people as possible") dilute the top purse?

If the PDGA adds thousands or tens of thousands of dollars to Pro Worlds purse, through whatever mechanism, but keeps the same format, will it make that much difference? Another $1,000 to the winner?

If the goal is a big, eye-catching payout to the World Champion---and I'm not saying it should be---it might involve changing Worlds themselves.

Just wonderin'.

Lyle makes good points. But as one of the "grassroots" advocates, I will point out that there's also evidence of sports which have had lots of growth at the participation level without raising their top levels to the point of TV & career professionals. While I believe the way to go is to grow the bottom until there are enough eyes to get the media's, and sponsor's, interest, I'm far from certain it would work, either.

In tapping the rank & file for $1 per tournament, or whatever, how much must be raised to boost the Worlds purse enough to draw attention? $100,000, to roughly double it? Will a $20,000 1st place be enough?

Surely enough to make the winner happier, but to raise the sport's profile?

Just wonderin'

Actually, I strongly agree with your point. I would argue that the reason those sports don't make the TV and career pro grade is the nature and structure of those sports. Indeed, I've made that argument here before. Keep in mind that I'm proposing what I consider is a cheap compromise. My basic stance is that we are in reality, one of those sports, like softball for example, that will never grow into a TV pro sport. Sports that grow into such a phase have certain characteristics. My opinion is that disc golf does not have those characteristics. Nonetheless, I recognize what the PDGA is, and what it represents, and feel a compromise is in order.

I like the idea of selling more "stuff".
Over a year you could raise some enough
money to probably match the current contribution.
Thus, my touring bake sale concept proposed earlier...

I think a bit of truth is in order here. Even some of the strongest, "I don't want to pay for you pro players" commentators here, if they weren't interested in "playing like a pro" wouldn't have to a) join this org, or b) have any lack of reasonably competitive, non-sanctioned play in which to exorcise their disc golf demons. Just the fact that you participate in this organization is an acknowledgment of the pro model. My wife laughs at my amateur commentaries while I belong to the PDGA. I especially love the "lets earn more money this way" comments, while denying that players should covet that money.

The PDGA is what it is, if we are not in support of bringing money in or developing it, at some level, for the Pro player, then we need to get off the pot and create an ADGA with teeth to support events and money raising for ams.

If the goal is a big, eye-catching payout to the World Champion---and I'm not saying it should be---it might involve changing Worlds themselves.

Winner take all. That would have been about $35,000 in Open. I wonder how many top players would enter under that payout scheme? Anthon is facing a $35,000 elimination putt in the playoff instead of $2500 difference. Of course the sponsored players would enter since some get entry fees covered and bonuses for high finishes.

The idea of paying down to just 25% instead of 40% would likely discourage lower level players who strive to cash, not for economic reasons necessarily, but as a sign they accomplished something at Worlds.

Some things never change on this discussion board. Nothing but constant b�tching and whining.

And the dollar thing: no thank you. $10,000 of my PDGA fees is plenty enough of a commitment. I don't want to send $15 more per year towards pro payout. I do plenty of subsidizing with my am entry fees locally and that $10k stipend to Worlds plus the PDGA money that goes to the NT events. I didn't ever feel like b�tching about that before, but Matt and Coda's posts here are reminding me that supporting pro payouts are a waste of money. :mad:

Go find someone to sponosor you if you think you are a frickin' pro. Nobody wants to pay to see your whiny cry-baby arses play disc golf. Go out and change some minds already instead of trying to put your hands even deeper into my pocket!

Rhett, it's pretty obvious that you have personal problems with either Coda or Matt.

Rhett, it's pretty obvious that you have personal problems with either Coda or Matt.

Love makes the world go round...

Thus, my touring bake sale concept proposed earlier...Winner take all. That would have been about $35,000 in Open.

CK - please don't think that your tongue in cheek suggestions can be considered real contributions to this discussion - which happens to be about the organizations financial practices. If you have some real ideas - then let's hear them - otherwise.......zip it.

Winner take all. That would have been about $35,000 in Open. I wonder how many top players would enter under that payout scheme? Anthon is facing a $35,000 elimination putt in the playoff instead of $2500 difference. Of course the sponsored players would enter since some get entry fees covered and bonuses for high finishes.

The idea of paying down to just 25% instead of 40% would likely discourage lower level players who strive to cash, not for economic reasons necessarily, but as a sign they accomplished something at Worlds.

Probably, but if we did pay out only 25%, those who did cash could be that much prouder of their accomplishment.

Then again, I've always wished we had steeper payouts, at all events and in all divisions. Rewarding someone finishing in the middle of the pack always strikes me as celebrating a .500 record in team sports. Even when it's me. Plus, it makes awards ceremonies that much longer. But I think I recall, perhaps incorrectly, that 4 or 5 years ago some of the top pros were on record as supporting flatter payouts, with the notion that they'd encourage bigger fields and more total money.

We've got sub .500 teams cashing in on playoff money in several major sports so how is that different than paying out 40%?

Actually Craig, the bake sale concept had its serious side which is the Open pros themselves need to find, be taxed or earn extra money for their division if they wish bigger payouts. I already suggested your merchandising concept where touring pros would sell a special Worlds logo disc for the year following the previous Worlds.

We've got sub .500 teams cashing in on playoff money in several major sports so how is that different than paying out 40%?

Actually Craig, the bake sale concept had its serious side which is the Open pros themselves need to find, be taxed or earn extra money for their division if they wish bigger payouts. I already suggested your merchandising concept where touring pros would sell a special Worlds logo disc for the year following the previous Worlds.

And my and several other peoples point Chuck - is that it is not incumbent upon a subset of the members to make the event successful. It is the organizations event - it is their one and only BIG event. And as such, whatever financial support they are going to offer should be coordinated on a national/world wide scale, should apply equally to all members, and should be the showcase for promoting the sport to the rest of the world. Whatever mechanisms they choose to generate revenue to those ends should be in support of the host club(s), and should provide sufficient incentive for more clubs to want to be the host club.

Suggesting that touring pros could piecemeal a merchandising campaign on an individual basis is an idea with no teeth, and no merit - it ain't gonna work. It's a coordination nightmare.

By suggesting the MPO division needs to be exclusively taxed does nothing but further the whole "us vs them" culture which is at the heart of the org's cancer. You throw it around like it's the way it is and always will be - and the worst part is - I don't think you're even aware of it. The WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS is not just about (what is now considered) the MPO division. Any purse to be given out is given out to more than that. Any discussion about the financial betterment of such an event should be a discussion that is all inclusive. Your piece to this discussion so far as I can see - has focused on being the opposite.

i would say its matt :)


Rhett, it's pretty obvious that you have personal problems with either Coda or Matt.

We've got sub .500 teams cashing in on playoff money in several major sports so how is that different than paying out 40%?



It's not. I don't care for that, either. I'm not proud of my college football team going to a bowl with a 6-6 record. I detest wild-card teams in all sports. I think teams should win their league or division, or stay home.

I may be in the minority.

Then again, in those other cases teams are sharing outside revenue, not just dividing up their own money amongst themselves.

And my and several other peoples point Chuck - is that it is not incumbent upon a subset of the members to make the event successful. It is the organizations event - it is their one and only BIG event. And as such, whatever financial support they are going to offer should be coordinated on a national/world wide scale, should apply equally to all members, and should be the showcase for promoting the sport to the rest of the world. Whatever mechanisms they choose to generate revenue to those ends should be in support of the host club(s), and should provide sufficient incentive for more clubs to want to be the host club.
That's all fine. But those protesting the low payouts are suggesting that any new money only be added to the Open Pro purse. If in fact more merchandising is done at the PDGA level to raise more money for Worlds for everyone, it will only cannibalize the efforts already being made by the host team to raise money. The only advantage for the PDGA doing the merchandising is if the host team does not do it as well as the PDGA could do it and that's hard to determine in advance.

For the winners that were unable to attend the awards, when can we expect to receive our check?

That's all fine. But those protesting the low payouts are suggesting that any new money only be added to the Open Pro purse. If in fact more merchandising is done at the PDGA level to raise more money for Worlds for everyone, it will only cannibalize the efforts already being made by the host team to raise money. The only advantage for the PDGA doing the merchandising is if the host team does not do it as well as the PDGA could do it and that's hard to determine in advance.

I guess you missed the point entirely Chuck.

The point of the PDGA providing seed money to a host club - is not to compete with them for the purpose of merchandising, but to provide them with a financial footing from which to pursue merchandising. If the host club is spending the year (or 2) in advance of the tournament trying to generate revenue - part of which will be used to purchase merchandise, (which is then sold for a profit to add to the event), at what point can they actually start to make their purchases? Obviously, the earlier you can start - the more chance you have for success. This is where I have suggested the PDGA could be an efective partner in promoting the event - is by making their event subsidy function as seed money.

I suppose you can interpret the call for greater Open purses to be the only call for better payout. That seems like a rather narrow focus to me. I interpret the call for better World's payout to be a call for the org to make their BIG event be just that - and that should not be exclusive to a single division.

The point of the PDGA providing seed money to a host club - is not to compete with them for the purpose of merchandising, but to provide them with a financial footing from which to pursue merchandising. If the host club is spending the year (or 2) in advance of the tournament trying to generate revenue - part of which will be used to purchase merchandise, (which is then sold for a profit to add to the event), at what point can they actually start to make their purchases? Obviously, the earlier you can start - the more chance you have for success. This is where I have suggested the PDGA could be an efective partner in promoting the event - is by making their event subsidy function as seed money.
The current seed money is available to the host as soon as they complete the contract with the PDGA. In addition, partners like Innova do not require seed money to get underway with their CFR program for Worlds. It's not considered good form for a host to promote their upcoming Worlds before the current one is completed other than perhaps locally. So the amount of merchandising time really can't be increased much beyond what already exists and enough seed money is already there for the clubs to get underway. The hold up is usually the club getting the artwork done so they can start sales right away after the previous Worlds is over.

I interpret the call for better World's payout to be a call for the org to make their BIG event be just that - and that should not be exclusive to a single division.



This


So can so of you guys stop claiming we are wanting ALL the money to ourselves? Gee maybe we juts want a better event for all in which we can use to push our sport more into the public eye.

The current seed money is available to the host as soon as they complete the contract with the PDGA. In addition, partners like Innova do not require seed money to get underway with their CFR program for Worlds. It's not considered good form for a host to promote their upcoming Worlds before the current one is completed other than perhaps locally. So the amount of merchandising time really can't be increased much beyond what already exists and enough seed money is already there for the clubs to get underway. The hold up is usually the club getting the artwork done so they can start sales right away after the previous Worlds is over.

Along these lines maybe it might be a good tradition to have a passing of the torch of sorts from the current host city to the next @ the end of the Awards ceremony? This might include an unveiling of the official logo/branding and a small 'local flavor' gift from the current city to the next one?

Also it could become standard/tradition that the next Worlds host/club gets to have a table setup w/ information about the city, courses, lodging, etc and could start selling Worlds items then.

I understand not every club would have their stuff together in time to have art and things ready but it might be a good kick in the butt to encourage them to get it done earlier ... besides what better way to reach your target audience for Worlds the next year than at the Worlds currently going on?

Along these lines maybe it might be a good tradition to have a passing of the torch of sorts from the current host city to the next @ the end of the Awards ceremony? This might include an unveiling of the official logo/branding and a small 'local flavor' gift from the current city to the next one?

Also it could become standard/tradition that the next Worlds host/club gets to have a table setup w/ information about the city, courses, lodging, etc and could start selling Worlds items then.

I understand not every club would have their stuff together in time to have art and things ready but it might be a good kick in the butt to encourage them to get it done earlier ... besides what better way to reach your target audience for Worlds the next year than at the Worlds currently going on?



Nice simple idea! Hopefully they can pull this off within the next 9 years.

No really that is a GOOD and SIMPLE idea.

Nice simple idea! Hopefully they can pull this off within the next 9 years.

No really that is a GOOD and SIMPLE idea.


Red Roc Disc Golf Club had a table at the Flymart and had information on 2010 Pro Worlds courses and tournament schedule.Indiana States had over 200 players this past weekend and the Homie is always a HUGE draw. I did not see 2010 merchandise but they did have their Homie discs.

This

So can so of you guys stop claiming we are wanting ALL the money to ourselves? Gee maybe we juts want a better event for all in which we can use to push our sport more into the public eye.

If that were the case, then why haven't we heard any complaints from:

Open Women
Masters
Masters Women
Grandmasters
Grandmasters Women
Senior Grandmasters
Legend

players about the payouts at Pro Worlds events? Or why haven't we heard from Open players complaining about the payouts in those divisions?

Seems to me like most of the whining is coming solely about payouts in the Open division, and especially finishing in the middle of the cashers in the Open division and "only" making a marginal $15 return on the entry fee.

Along these lines maybe it might be a good tradition to have a passing of the torch of sorts from the current host city to the next @ the end of the Awards ceremony? This might include an unveiling of the official logo/branding and a small 'local flavor' gift from the current city to the next one?
Usually the sign off at the awards ceremony is something like , "See you next year in ________!" But unveiling a logo or flag with it on there might be cool and inspirational and make sure the host cities are ready to roll as Worlds ends.

I apologize for getting sucked into this discussion....again. There's really no excuse for it since it was telegraphed that all this was coming before the event took place.

If that were the case, then why haven't we heard any complaints from:

Open Women
Masters
Masters Women
Grandmasters
Grandmasters Women
Senior Grandmasters
Legend

players about the payouts at Pro Worlds events? Or why haven't we heard from Open players complaining about the payouts in those divisions?

Seems to me like most of the whining is coming solely about payouts in the Open division, and especially finishing in the middle of the cashers in the Open division and "only" making a marginal $15 return on the entry fee.

Come on Jeff - is every retort about calling someone a name? Is it not obvious that the worlds as an event has not seen significant growth in 20 years? There were no more Open players at 08 Worlds than there were at any of the 8 Worlds tournaments I played between 1987 and 1996 (in fact with perhaps one exception - there were LESS.) The payouts are essentially the same. There has been zero growth at this level. Is it whining and complaining to want better than what we have? If you're going to take the time to post - how about something with substance? As opposed to a nyah Nyah nannnahhh - these guys aren't complayyyyyning -so you must be wrong!!

Your responses suggest that everything is hunky dory - nothing needs any attention - steady as she goes, the status quo is GOOD! One more reason why I don't go to Worlds - you are not the only one with that attitude.

It's funny that I took some extra time to post something I thought might provide food for discussion - and it basically gets no response. Don't know why I bothered.

It's funny that I took some extra time to post something I thought might provide food for discussion - and it basically gets no response. Don't know why I bothered.

It was well reasoned, non-inflammatory, balanced and laid out many of the competing issues. Those types of posts aren't welcome here. j/k While it's still easy to find, I'd squirrel away a copy for next year's annual discussion.

If it is any consolation I don't think what you posted was in vain and in fact I assume it made some look at the situation in a different light.

Also I agree with 99% of the stuff you post on here including this discussion and all I am asking is why worlds has stayed the same size while the ORG as a whole has grown significantly .

I think the point about this being the ONE event with the PDGA name in front of it is a good one and it would seem like the PDGA would want to do anything to gain more exposure for the event while at the same time bringing in the most members possible. That is hard to do when many have decided to no longer attend after seeing the same thing year after year.

I would assume this is why there were so many more Pros in 2000 Vs 2009.

Lets be honest. If you want Worlds to grow. keep it in the same place every year around the the same time! Why do we keep passing the worlds from city to city, resetting the learning curve and trying to find new sponsors. Look at festivals that have grown year after year because the same people who you are asking for sponsorship from, actually saw a payoff the year before!!! The T.D.'s will learn from mistakes and do things correctly the next year! Look at the college World series!

The current seed money is available to the host as soon as they complete the contract with the PDGA. In addition, partners like Innova do not require seed money to get underway with their CFR program for Worlds. It's not considered good form for a host to promote their upcoming Worlds before the current one is completed other than perhaps locally. So the amount of merchandising time really can't be increased much beyond what already exists and enough seed money is already there for the clubs to get underway. The hold up is usually the club getting the artwork done so they can start sales right away after the previous Worlds is over.

Now this is about the most useful information you've posted yet Chuck. If the 6K is available (this is the amount you mentioned in another thread) as soon as a contract is signed, it would seem to me that local merchandising would be a very effective initial step in starting to build the seed money into a more substantial sum. Wouldn't need to step on toes of the upcoming worlds - and could even focus on higher quality local event merchandise that could be sold readily and in limited quantities (keeping outlays minimal, and returns rapid). Perhaps the PDGA could coordinate with the major manufacturers to make the latest and greatest CFR merch available to Worlds hosts before anyone else? Or maybe even have a "Worlds Only" sequence of CFR merch, much in the same vein as the CE Rocs for USDGC. Any smart promoter would want to move larger #'s of merch - take a smaller profit - and do it again with the next item. Focusing on just selling discs would be unnecessarily limiting. Selling lots of 25 or 50 discs to all the vendors linked on the front page would seem both appropriate AND easy.

If artwork is a limitation - maybe that's a place where either through current PDGA staff, volunteer efforts, a paid consultant, contests, kidnapping of a computer graphics geek, or any other number of ways - the org can be proactive and start to generate a backlog of cool graphics that are disc related. Maybe seek permission from clubs that have purchased custom hotstamps from the manufacturers to pdf all the old hotstamps into a graphics library. Sometimes all it takes to come up with something new and event/location specific - is to see someone elses design ideas. Not having your artwork done is a totally lame excuse for failing to raise money for an event as big as a WORLD Championship. Although it is the frisbee world - and it does happen. And hence why the PDGA as a leader in promoting our beloved game - could play an integral role in facilitating the efforts of those clubs that step up to represent the org.

Lets be honest. If you want Worlds to grow. keep it in the same place every year around the the same time! Why do we keep passing the worlds from city to city, resetting the learning curve and trying to find new sponsors. Look at festivals that have grown year after year because the same people who you are asking for sponsorship from, actually saw a payoff the year before!!! The T.D.'s will learn from mistakes and do things correctly the next year! Look at the college World series!

No city wants it more than once.

Doubtful any city is willing to do it more than once.

And since it's part-convention, I'd think more players are attracted to going to a new place, perhaps new or at least different courses.

Doubtful if any sponsors are seeing much of a payoff, anyway. Omaha doesn't like the College World Series because the teams come....but their huge fan following. Plus, I guess, TV exposure.

If the job of running Worlds became just that, a job, it would work. Create a position with a low base salary with the ability to add commission based on sponsorships garnered. Whichever city it was would love it. Revenue through hotels, restaurants, bars and gas stations and countless other spending would definitely be noticed.

Now this is about the most useful information you've posted yet Chuck. If the 6K is available (this is the amount you mentioned in another thread) as soon as a contract is signed, it would seem to me that local merchandising would be a very effective initial step in starting to build the seed money into a more substantial sum. Wouldn't need to step on toes of the upcoming worlds - and could even focus on higher quality local event merchandise that could be sold readily and in limited quantities (keeping outlays minimal, and returns rapid). Perhaps the PDGA could coordinate with the major manufacturers to make the latest and greatest CFR merch available to Worlds hosts before anyone else? Or maybe even have a "Worlds Only" sequence of CFR merch, much in the same vein as the CE Rocs for USDGC.

Any smart promoter would want to move larger #'s of merch - take a smaller profit - and do it again with the next item. Focusing on just selling discs would be unnecessarily limiting. Selling lots of 25 or 50 discs to all the vendors linked on the front page would seem both appropriate AND easy.

If artwork is a limitation - maybe that's a place where either through current PDGA staff, volunteer efforts, a paid consultant, contests, kidnapping of a computer graphics geek, or any other number of ways - the org can be proactive and start to generate a backlog of cool graphics that are disc related. Maybe seek permission from clubs that have purchased custom hotstamps from the manufacturers to pdf all the old hotstamps into a graphics library. Sometimes all it takes to come up with something new and event/location specific - is to see someone elses design ideas. Not having your artwork done is a totally lame excuse for failing to raise money for an event as big as a WORLD Championship. Although it is the frisbee world - and it does happen. And hence why the PDGA as a leader in promoting our beloved game - could play an integral role in facilitating the efforts of those clubs that step up to represent the org.


Craig - This is a great idea that has in fact already been in use for the PAST SIX YEARS!!! 2004 Pro Worlds in Des Moines and 2005 in Pennsylvania had exclusive use of the Super Roc to raise funds. 2006 Augusta had exclusive use of the Champion Wraith and 2009 Kansas City had exclusive use of the Star Monarch. (I can't remember the Highbridge and Kalamazoo fund raisers.) All these events (as well as Am Worlds Tulsa and Madison) also had unique graphics on their CFR discs and all these events started selling their CFR discs many months ahead of the event. So since this is already being done (and rather successfully), you may need to think of some other solutions.


I think when people compare the payout of 2000 Worlds to current Worlds, folks forget that there are now more perks for all competitors than back then. This year's player package was the largest yet. So, while the payout may look the same "on paper", there really was much more value added to the events. Some of that added value will last long after World's leaves town. Permanent courses were installed in most of these communities with funds raised through the sale of the World's fundraiser discs. New courses will do far more to grow the sport than increasing some top pro's payday.

I personally do not have a problem with the Payout at Worlds. Perhaps it is just easier to see the added cash when you play in a smaller division. I was even willing to back Matt's idea for collecting extra money throughout the year, but have since changed my mind.

As already stated many times and in many ways - it all comes down to outside sponsorship. Without it, we are merely juggling how we play for each other's money.

I seem to recall discussions of the courses at the IDGC being used for Worlds at some future point. If Worlds were to have a permanent home, that seems as logical a location as it is also the home of the PDGA.

Tulsa was able to purchase 4 courses of baskets and 72 tee pads with the Special Blend Orc fundraiser.

What kind of benefits are you seeing in Tulsa from those purchases? Would they still have been installed without the fundraiser?
Is the City pleased with the courses? (Would they be open for more expansion due to the success of these 4 new courses?)

I seem to recall discussions of the courses at the IDGC being used for Worlds at some future point. If Worlds were to have a permanent home, that seems as logical a location as it is also the home of the PDGA.

too isolated unfortunately.

Craig - This is a great idea that has in fact already been in use for the PAST SIX YEARS!!! 2004 Pro Worlds in Des Moines and 2005 in Pennsylvania had exclusive use of the Super Roc to raise funds. 2006 Augusta had exclusive use of the Champion Wraith and 2009 Kansas City had exclusive use of the Star Monarch. (I can't remember the Highbridge and Kalamazoo fund raisers.) All these events (as well as Am Worlds Tulsa and Madison) also had unique graphics on their CFR discs and all these events started selling their CFR discs many months ahead of the event. So since this is already being done (and rather successfully), you may need to think of some other solutions.


I think when people compare the payout of 2000 Worlds to current Worlds, folks forget that there are now more perks for all competitors than back then. This year's player package was the largest yet. So, while the payout may look the same "on paper", there really was much more value added to the events. Some of that added value will last long after World's leaves town. Permanent courses were installed in most of these communities with funds raised through the sale of the World's fundraiser discs. New courses will do far more to grow the sport than increasing some top pro's payday.

I personally do not have a problem with the Payout at Worlds. Perhaps it is just easier to see the added cash when you play in a smaller division. I was even willing to back Matt's idea for collecting extra money throughout the year, but have since changed my mind. Matt has become the poster child for why I would NOT want to add more PDGA money to the Open purse. The more he posts, the more he hurts his once palatable solution.

As already stated many times and in many ways - it all comes down to outside sponsorship. Without it, we are merely juggling how we play for each other's money.


Funny you bring that up. When we asked time and time again for a disc to fundraise the Womens National Championships we were denied. Guess the women and the building of thier "greatest" event has little to no importance. I predict this discussion will take place again, only it will be the women trying to make a case. They may not want added cash from everyone, but they should DEMAND that the disc companies take an intrest in thier event.

Sorry to go off the Worlds topic.

If the job of running Worlds became just that, a job, it would work. Create a position with a low base salary with the ability to add commission based on sponsorships garnered. Whichever city it was would love it. Revenue through hotels, restaurants, bars and gas stations and countless other spending would definitely be noticed.

I've never been involved in running Worlds so I could be completely wrong, but....

Worlds is staffed by dozens of volunteers. Even if you paid a director, he or she would need a large staff willing to volunteer every year. OR, you'd need to pay them as well, significantly increasing the cost.

I think Chuck mentioned paying the host clubs before adding money to the purse (perhaps in jest). Similar cost, avoids the burnout of doing it every year, but admittedly doesn't address your "learning curve" issue.

I also doubt any city would love it very much. Maybe I'm wrong, and someone who's actually run Worlds has some solid figures. Attendance of 900 at Pro-Am Worlds, perhaps 300-400 at stand-alone Pro Worlds, no accompanying fans, many low-budget players doubling or tripling up on rooms, buying gas and eating fast-food or modest restaurants, spending all day on disc golf courses so little time for other local attractions---doesn't seem like a lot of impact to me. A decent-sized city regularly has more conventioneers than this, presumably more well-heeled and spending much more per person. Most areas that might feel the impact more, don't have the necessary courses. I'd guess Highbridge was in the best position to see an impact.

Perhaps just my bias from my own experience at tournaments and 1 Worlds I attended. Has anyone here actually been involved running Worlds and have solid figures on the economic impact?

too isolated unfortunately.


Wow, who wouldve thought that? And it cost how much again? Great Choice!

If the job of running Worlds became just that, a job, it would work. Create a position with a low base salary with the ability to add commission based on sponsorships garnered. Whichever city it was would love it. Revenue through hotels, restaurants, bars and gas stations and countless other spending would definitely be noticed.


Ha. You better hope its a city that bleeds green. A low base salary? What for? Theres enough people out there doing it for free.....until they get burned out and the disc golf fades away in thier town...until the next batch of PDGA foot soldiers show up. Then they get burned out. Its like that old Coke commercial from the 80s.

I mean yeah, its a nice theroy, but unlikely IMO.

What kind of benefits are you seeing in Tulsa from those purchases? Would they still have been installed without the fundraiser?
Is the City pleased with the courses? (Would they be open for more expansion due to the success of these 4 new courses?)

We are still reaping the benefits of hosting Am worlds. Our local participation is up and we are able to offer more player events and charity events.

They would not have been installed without the fund raiser. We would not have either of the Mohawk courses. The fundraiser program allowed for 2 new courses and upgrades to two others.

The city is happy with the results and are open to more expansion. Due to Worlds, 2 new courses were installed in Pawhuska, 1 new course in Owasso and 2 courses were instaled through the "True Growth Program" with the used baskets that were replaced with new ones for Worlds.

So with the Worlds fundraiser the following happened in Tulsa:

Mohawk Black - new course and 31 tee pads
Mohawk Red - new course and 18 tee pads
Dovillio - 18 new baskets, tee signs and tee pads
Haikey Creek - 12 new baskets and 5 new tee pads

After worlds but from the momentum of Worlds itself :
Pawhuska (The Lodge)- 36 holes
Bristow - 9 holes
Pawhuska City - 9 holes
Owasso - 18 holes

Worlds was a bonus for Tulsa!

Clearly a bonus for Tulsa disc golf community---

Was it a bonus for the broader community or the City of Tulsa in general?

One they'd be willing to pay to do again?

too isolated unfortunately.

It's, what, 20 minutes from Augusta, a fair-sized small city that hosted Worlds before?

Only 3 courses at IDGC right now, too few for Worlds, especially Pro-Am Worlds.

It was a bonus for the entire Tulsa metro area. And yes they would do it again. I can't speak for them but I doubt Tulsa would bid on the Pro Worlds. That is nothing but a drain on club finances and volunteers. We just had NTs for the last two years and those did nothing but take money from the accounts.

I know I'll stir up some pros but AM Worlds is where a club can benefit through the fundraiser program. I have yet to see how a club could come out ahead on a PRO Worlds or any Pro event for that matter under the current way of doing things.

If I were a new TD looking for a way to grow the local club, I would target AM only events. I think the PDGA should take the PRO Wolrds and do it all themselves at the same location each year. KC is about the only club I can remember willing to step up again for the Pros and that was with a dual Worlds.

Lets be honest. If you want Worlds to grow. keep it in the same place every year around the the same time! Why do we keep passing the worlds from city to city, resetting the learning curve and trying to find new sponsors. Look at festivals that have grown year after year because the same people who you are asking for sponsorship from, actually saw a payoff the year before!!! The T.D.'s will learn from mistakes and do things correctly the next year! Look at the college World series!

That is the greatest idea that I have read on this thread. I want to suggest an amendment-

Keep Pro Worlds in the same city every year, but keep the same "touring" system with Am Worlds, because Am Worlds does not NEED sponsorship. Pros Worlds NEEDS sponsorship, and NEEDS a title sponsor that sees an annual return on its investment. The PDGA and the various host clubs still make their profit from Ams, and they could both partially subsidize Pro Worlds every year, adding to the already boosted payout from the title sponsor.

Sorry, my question wasn't clear.

Was it successful enough that the City of Tulsa, government, and/or non-disc-golf-related local businesses, would pay money in support to have Pro Worlds there?

Some suggest a city profits from hosting Worlds and, if it profits enough, I assume it would be willing to kick in money. I have my doubts, but have no direct experience either way.

Yes, Ams are profitable and Pros a financial drain, from Worlds down to C-tiers. The trick is to find a reasonable balance until when, and if, outsiders are interested in paying to see the pros.

Just a couple of side points...

Someone (maybe Jeff) mentioned 'Why is it only the mid-cashing Open Pros who are complaining about payouts?' (my paraphrasing). Just my thoughts, but that pool probably is younger than the other pools! All the other mentioned divisions (except maybe Pro Women's - which I've read a few 'winer-type' posts on the PDGA MB before) are of "aged people" old enough to be "set" financially a bit better than younger Open Pros and thus don't look at such things (as World's) as a "money making endeavour" to the same extent.

And as for the "keeping the World's at 1 perminent site", the "horses for courses" (HfC) concept would put a damper on determining - year after year - who is the 'world's best'...unless that site had a total mix of courses to offset the HfC thing.

Karl

I looked but couldn't find details.

Wasn't there an election or survey or BOD decision or something similar in the last couple of years where a result or decision was made to keep worlds as more of a convention type event for the "frisbee family" and less of a biggest payout ever every year kind of event?

(I know, its pretty vague)

Does anyone recall the details or even better can anyone find some documentation about this?

Thx

Sorry, my question wasn't clear.

Was it successful enough that the City of Tulsa, government, and/or non-disc-golf-related local businesses, would pay money in support to have Pro Worlds there?

Some suggest a city profits from hosting Worlds and, if it profits enough, I assume it would be willing to kick in money. I have my doubts, but have no direct experience either way.

Yes, Ams are profitable and Pros a financial drain, from Worlds down to C-tiers. The trick is to find a reasonable balance until when, and if, outsiders are interested in paying to see the pros.


Yes, it was successful enough for the City of Tulsa and they would do it again, IF the club approached them about it. Thats the part I don't see happening. At least not for the Pro side of it. The sponsors we did have came from within our orgs recruitment of them, not from the City. The city did promote the event and we worked with the Chamber and the Sports Commission here in town but the City did not provide any direct monetary support. However they did gain a sizable donation to the local economy. If I remember right, we had around 565 players and with hotel and average spending, we calculated it at around 500K spent localy.

Thanks for the info.

Almost $1,000 per person. I'd have never guessed.

CVBs (Convention & Visitors Bureaus) use a 3-4 times multiplier times the direct amount of money paid by people who attend events. So, if an average of $500 was spent per person, then the impact of a 1000 people is about $2 million in the economy due to that money rippling thru there.

The my estimate of 500K was a little low.

i've used this calculator occasionally in working up figures for parks depts and county govts
https://www.msu.edu/course/prr/840/econimpact/michigan/ecimpest.html

i think it overstates it a bit but that is good for the purpose.

chuck, the multiplier depends on the sector. i.e. the larger the city, the larger the multiplier.

national avg is 2.5 - 4 x money spent

because every hotel, restaurant, gas station and retail store returns monies spent to various local vendors, who pay their suppliers, employees, who buy gas, and so goes the ripple effect.


has there been a comparison made between Vibram and Worlds payouts? They have a new line of discs with positive feedback so far, prime discs has some $$$ rolling in....we'll see if it converts to prize money.

(and avery made much more than 5.5K when you add in bonuses and future engagements)

All this talk about how to make and distribute more money for Worlds. Here's my proposal: Do the steps mentioned to get more money pooled, ignoring for now the logistics of having enough unpaid manpower to do it. Then take that money and put it towards hotel stays, travel expenses and giveaway discs to sponsor sending out the brother and sister champions, or whatever champions we have in future years, to any venue (schools, parks, cable shows and so on) that we can book them into.

Screw paying it out in purse. We can do better and have a bigger impact by getting it into hands and venues that can increase awareness.

Oh, and throw a cut at the TD so he is compensated closer to what a 'legitimate sport' would provide. Help create an environment where the promoter (club or individual) get's a less poor ROI, helping to make it so might actually want to step up and host a great Worlds.

All this talk about how to make and distribute more money for Worlds. Here's my proposal: Do the steps mentioned to get more money pooled, ignoring for now the logistics of having enough unpaid manpower to do it. Then take that money and put it towards hotel stays, travel expenses and giveaway discs to sponsor sending out the brother and sister champions, or whatever champions we have in future years, to any venue (schools, parks, cable shows and so on) that we can book them into.

Screw paying it out in purse. We can do better and have a bigger impact by getting it into hands and venues that can increase awareness.

Oh, and throw a cut at the TD so he is compensated closer to what a 'legitimate sport' would provide. Help create an environment where the promoter (club or individual) get's a less poor ROI, helping to make it so might actually want to step up and host a great Worlds.

I like that idea.

I don't think you can pay a Worlds TD anything near what his/her time is worth, and a tiny pittance is IMO less desirable than doing it "for the love of the sport".

It's like having a backyard mechanic buddy tear down your engine to replace the timing belt and then offering him $20. Either you can pay him for the work, or he is doing you a favor because you're friends. Bring him some beer and pizza and thank him profusely.

But this is another salient point in the "big picture" of why disc golf doesn't have good pay for its pros. We spend too much energy discussing and arguing the the payout of one division at one tournament instead of trying to getting a grasp of what the true big picture entails, let alone trying to understand the big picture. Know what I mean?

We spend too much energy discussing and arguing the the payout of one division at one tournament instead of trying to getting a grasp of what the true big picture entails, let alone trying to understand the big picture. Know what I mean?

no, please clarify. also, how long have you had it all figured out and why have you been withholding this information?

no, please clarify. also, how long have you had it all figured out and why have you been withholding this information?

I don't have it figured out. But there are a lot of pieces.

Like touring pros getting so good that weekend warriors that use to win on their home courses and threaten nearby have little chance now when the tour comes to town. Does that drive down the size of the Open field?

Since we only play for our own entry fees, does it make sense to have 10 cash paying pro divisions diluting the small amount of added cash, or should there really only be 2, MPO and FPO? We get a lot of comparisons of USDGC payout with Worlds, but USDGC has the CE Roc for a fundraiser *AND* is "one division, one champion". Everybody that plays there is in MPO.

Since we are playing for our own entry fees, more players equals better payout, so 2 pro divisions instead of 10 would help here too. Not to mention most of the 970 to 990 rated players that aren't currently playing Open are playing these other pro divisions, not the am divisions. Its becoming more socially acceptable to stay am up to 970, but let's face it: jumping to MPO at 950 is a quick ticket to quitting tourney play.

Are a bunch of am divisions good or bad for competition? It seems like the more cash-generating divisions and players you have in a tournament, the better the bottom line for everyone associated with that tourney...but is that true? Does it kill the competitive spirit to win Am3?

Tournaments are run on donated labor, given for the good of the sport. If a bunch of tourning pros are suddenly able to make a decent living playing in these tourneys, will that free labor pool still be there? I mean, shouldn't the guy that makes it happen get a cut too?

Right now, we are where we are. Is that good enough? I don't TD anymore, but I always felt bad for the guys living the dream and trying to make it on tour because they were awesome players and pretty nice guys. I didn't mind busting my arse to put on a tourney and always wished I could've raised more money. If 10 of those guys were making $60k-$75k per year, would've I felt the same way? Probably not. If there's good money out there, then the labor shouldn't be free.

I always wanted TDing to pay enough that people would be scrambling to run events so that I wouldn't have to. I still don't see that happening.

Does taking another dollar from every entry all year long and adding it to one tournament address any of that?


Let's hear some more!

Tournaments are run on donated labor, given for the good of the sport. If a bunch of tourning pros are suddenly able to make a decent living playing in these tourneys, will that free labor pool still be there? I mean, shouldn't the guy that makes it happen get a cut too?





Excellent point I hadn't previously considered

Excellent point I hadn't previously considered

ditto... great point indeed that I doubt a lot had considered. And it would no doubt hopefully spread to other areas including course designers/developers. And rightfully so.

I made more $$ than Nate Doss at worlds this year. I know he shot way better than I did. I barely made the top 10 and he barely missed it. Is that fair?