Can the scorekeepers tell a player that their score is added incorrectly so they can change it? Is this kosher?

And what if the other players on the card checked the score and said it was correct, when in fact, they knew it wasn't? Very difficult to prove. And that's why I think that all of the players in the group should be stroked when an incorrect scorecard is turned in because they may be cheating.

What do you folks think?

Can the scorekeepers tell a player that their score is added incorrectly so they can change it? Is this kosher?

And what if the other players on the card checked the score and said it was correct, when in fact, they knew it wasn't? Very difficult to prove. And that's why I think that all of the players in the group should be stroked when an incorrect scorecard is turned in because they may be cheating.

What do you folks think?
IMO, once a scorecard is turned in, that is it. If it is incorrectly added, the player whose score is incorrect shall be penalized. Only the player whose score is incorrect, though; it is 100% each player's responsibility to provide a correct tabulation for her (and only her) round.

So, what do you do when another player checks your score, sees it's wrong, but tells you that it's good. Then they beat you by one stroke. How should that shake down?

There is no responsibility for one player to check another's total score. If the score is added wrong it is solely the responsibility of the player whose total is incorrect.

So, what do you do when another player checks your score, sees it's wrong, but tells you that it's good. Then they beat you by one stroke. How should that shake down?
1 - Can not prove that. They could have made the same mistake as you.
2 - Doesn't matter. It is your responsiblity to make sure your score is correct. Period, the burden of responsibility is on each player for their own score.

I agree that we are all responsible for our own score. I also agree that any allegation that somebody intentionally miscomputed somebody else's score is vitually impossible to prove...that being said, the original question is provacative. If it could be proven that a player intentionally misrepresented anybody's score (whether his own or not) ("Sure dude, you had a 54") would there be any sanction against that player? I think nothing can be done for the fool who turned in the wrong score. You all are correct. He/she is at correct score +2. However, if we are indeed dealing with Voldamort what options exist for penalizing/disqualifying him?

I agree that we are all responsible for our own score. I also agree that any allegation that somebody intentionally miscomputed somebody else's score is vitually impossible to prove...that being said, the original question is provacative. If it could be proven that a player intentionally misrepresented anybody's score (whether his own or not) ("Sure dude, you had a 54") would there be any sanction against that player? I think nothing can be done for the fool who turned in the wrong score. You all are correct. He/she is at correct score +2. However, if we are indeed dealing with Voldamort what options exist for penalizing/disqualifying him?


Intentionally chaeting = DQ'd + possible PDGA sanctions.

The job isn't over until the paperwork is done. If you can't add your score correctly, then you lose by one instead of winning by one.

Personally, I don't care to compete in that manner. If you're on my card and I notice you added your score wrong, then I'll tell you. But I add 'em up wrong, too, at times. It would really stink if I beat you that way and you thought I intentionally didn't tell you your score was wrong when I didn't notice it.

So, what do you do when another player checks your score, sees it's wrong, but tells you that it's good. Then they beat you by one stroke. How should that shake down?

you count your own score with those wonderful math skills learned in our nation's public schools in second grade and tell the grade school drop-outs in your group they are full of it.

...OR you could fail to count your own score correctly (or at all) and through your own lack of personal accountability (or inability to add numbers to 2 digits) screw yourself out of beating the guy who is lying to you in the first place.

counting your score is simply NOT that hard.

When counting I always round down.

I'm just posing this question because there always is the possibility that someone in your group may try to cheat. If all players in a group are accountable for checking each others scores, wrong scores won't be turned in and there won't be any deliberate cheating. If all players in the group could be stroked for one wrong scorecard, cheating will not occur.

Let's day that I did indeed notice that you cannot add correctly and I tell you it looks ok. How is that cheating? Cheating is doing something against the rules. Where does it say that I have to add YOUR score correctly? It does not say that.

Along the very same lines, if I notice that you are going to break a rule and get penalized it is my responsibility to jump in and stop you from moving an object between your lie and the basket? I am I cheating if I sit there and watch you? No, I am not cheating.

Now, is it not nice for me to do something like that? I guess it depends on your morals. However to call it cheating is pretty silly.

What I recommend is that everyone take responsibility for their own actions. I know that sounds like a pretty crazy idea.

personal accountability is passe.

I just assume that everyone i'm playing against is a cheater. I make sure my score is correct. If someone else asks me to check theirs I pretend I don't understand english.

I agree with sentiments expressed here about personal accountability. Ultimately no one but YOU is responsible for your correct score on your scorecard.

However, proper sportsmanship, etiquette, and common sense dictate that if we're checking scores of others on our scorecard, we point out if another competitor's score is incorrect.

Hypothetically though, let's say there is a competitor who is despised by one or more golfers on his card. They notice a mistake on his scorecard but say nothing. The despised competitor checks his card, doesn't notice the error, and turns it in and is penalized by the TD.

If I'm the TD, I'll ask the other competitors about the error. If they plead ignorance, then officially, there is nothing I can do about it. However, if they admit that they intentionally said nothing about the error because they despise the competitor, then I'm going to look to our rulebook about imposing penalties. Here are some that I might apply:

801.01 Courtesy C.

Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.

804.05 Disqualification and Suspension A.

A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

So I'm either going to give a courtesy violation for failing to keep score properly, or DQ the competitors for unsportsmanlike conduct & overt rudeness.

100%, the player's responsibility for his own score.

I've known an entire group to check a card and get it wrong. All honorable, no chance it was deliberate. It was my score, and it never crossed my mind to blame anyone else.

I did recently witness a fairly new player go rather ballistic when he was penalized for turning in a wrong score. I was almost astonished.

[QUOTE=Jeff_LaG;1385887] Ultimately no one but YOU is responsible for your correct score on your scorecard.



If I'm the TD, I'll ask the other competitors about the error. [QUOTE]

these 2 statements are directly contradictory.

i've probably counted a hundred scorecards over the years that were added incorrectly- it has never even crossed my mind to hold anyone but the offending player responsible.

So, Jeff...

I will go back to my moving an obstacle example. Are you going to come to me and ask if I knew it was against the rules to do so and I did not point it out beforehand to the offending player? If I said yes I knew the rules and I let them do it are you going to DQ me for letting the other player breaking a rule?

I fail to see how I am responsible for another's lack of understanding of the rules or their lack of mathematical skills. That is neither unsportsman like or rude. It is letting people be responsible for their own play.

Now, I am not saying that I would not help someone with their math (I NEVER check anyone's scores) or point out a potential rule violation) but, it is not mine or anyone else's responsibility to do so. Their do so because they choose so.

Let's day that I did indeed notice that you cannot add correctly and I tell you it looks ok. How is that cheating? Cheating is doing something against the rules. Where does it say that I have to add YOUR score correctly? It does not say that.

Along the very same lines, if I notice that you are going to break a rule and get penalized it is my responsibility to jump in and stop you from moving an object between your lie and the basket? I am I cheating if I sit there and watch you? No, I am not cheating.

Now, is it not nice for me to do something like that? I guess it depends on your morals. However to call it cheating is pretty silly.

What I recommend is that everyone take responsibility for their own actions. I know that sounds like a pretty crazy idea.


If you notice the score isn't added correctly, and reply that it is okay upon being asked, that's a blatant lie and therefore, unsportsmanlike.

Your second scenario is not cheating or unsportsmanlike. Let stupid people do what they want as long as it doesn't endanger you. Call them on it after the fact and they may just learn something.

August,

Only if you have the powers of ESP are you going to know if someone lied or simply made the same mistake as the player. How would you EVER prove that. "I see that you got an A- in 3rd grade math. There is no way that you could have miscounted Mr. X's card like he also did." No sense even arguing that fact and I did say that it was not cheating as the OP was indicating.

Can the scorekeepers tell a player that their score is added incorrectly so they can change it? Is this kosher?



By "scorekeepers" do you mean other members of your group?
Or the TD or his or her assistants?

The former is kosher and, in my experience, commonly done. Though not required, players I've played with are usually willing to check the card before turning it in.

The latter is not. Once card is turned in wrong, it is subject to the penalty. If it weren't, people would be pretty slack about totaling their scores, or not do it at all, putting all the extra burden on the TD & staff to get add them.

August,

Only if you have the powers of ESP are you going to know if someone lied or simply made the same mistake as the player. How would you EVER prove that. "I see that you got an A- in 3rd grade math. There is no way that you could have miscounted Mr. X's card like he also did." No sense even arguing that fact.

My comment says nothing about proving anything. It was a direct response to your first scenario, wherein you admit noticing that the score was not added correctly, then state that it looks okay. If you admit this, then there is no need for ESP, or any other evidence gathering technique. I agree that proving this type of transgression would be difficult if not impossible. However, admitting it negates the need to prove it.

Ultimately no one but YOU is responsible for your correct score on your scorecard.

If I'm the TD, I'll ask the other competitors about the error.

these 2 statements are directly contradictory.

i've probably counted a hundred scorecards over the years that were added incorrectly- it has never even crossed my mind to hold anyone but the offending player responsible.

As Scoring Director for 3 of the last 4 Pro Worlds, multiple NT events, TD, and a helper at countless numbers of lower tier events, I've also come across practically a hundred scorecards over the years that were added incorrectly, and ultimately I held no one but the offending player responsible.

However, this hypothetical issue concerns the specific example where the offending competitor or someone else on the card came to me (as the TD) and said that someone on the card make it deliberately known by announcing that they knew the card was not correct yet said nothing because they despise the competitor.

This differs completely from other rules violations such as moving an obstacle. It does not say in our rules that it is a courtesy violation or unsportsmanlike conduct to fail to notify others of rules violations. It does say that it is a courtesy violation for failure in keeping score properly, and I feel it is egregious unsportsmanlike conduct and overt rudeness to announce to the group that they knew the score was incorrect, yet said nothing.

I would also be hesitant to go solely by the word of the group before taking action - when questioned, said party would have to repeat it to me and confirm the belligerence.

August,

Only if you have the powers of ESP are you going to know if someone lied or simply made the same mistake as the player.
Well, that's not true at all. There's no point in engaging in malicious mischief if you're not going to go snigger about it with your equally immature pals. Maybe while the player is sniggering with his homies, my brother walking by overhears it all and confirms that the player did it on purpose. Punks get caught all the time because they told someone about their punkish behavior.

If I'm the TD I might DQ him. I don't need a rule in a rulebook to throw an a------ out of my tournament. He can appeal to the PDGA if he doesn't like it and see how far he gets.

So someone can do that, sure. And it's your own stupid fault if it happens to you. But if I know that that happened and I'm the TD, I think there's a long list of crap I don't have to put up with that you aren't going to find itemized in the rulebook.

>O<

If I needed a rule, there's always 804.05(A)(1).

Actually, in my case, the point is moot because I do have the powers of ESP, as well as x-ray vision and telekenesis. So, in theory, I will know if you are cheating and can eject you from the premesis without even touching you, all while I report to your friends that you are wearing ninja turtle underwear.

if you had telekinesis you'd putt better.

I have to agree with Jeff in the highly unlikely situation where we could actually prove that someobdy intentionally let a wrong score go in especially when that person is asked. I find no place for that kind of behavior. This would be no different than when a group is looking for a lost disc and somebody, while standing right over the bright red disc, says, "no, I haven't seen it." I think this is DQ and I do not mean ice cream.

This would be no different than when a group is looking for a lost disc and somebody, while standing right over the bright red disc, says, "no, I haven't seen it." I think this is DQ and I do not mean ice cream.

Again, if it was brought to me as a TD, it would take for the person to announce to the competitor or to the group that they saw the red disc but intentionally said nothing because they despised the competitor or to gain an advantage because of the lost disc penalty. I'd also likely need to confirm the unsportsmanlike conduct and overt rudeness by interviewing the person and having them belligerently repeat it to me.

I have to agree with Jeff in the highly unlikely situation where we could actually prove that someobdy intentionally let a wrong score go in especially when that person is asked. I find no place for that kind of behavior. This would be no different than when a group is looking for a lost disc and somebody, while standing right over the bright red disc, says, "no, I haven't seen it." I think this is DQ and I do not mean ice cream.
While I also find no place for this kind of behavior, the two scenarios are quite different in the eyes of the rules. 803.11A requires a player to assist in attempting to find a lost disc (if asked), while I can find no rule requiring a player to correctly add up another's score nor one prohibiting a player from lying to another about the other's score.

I can hear the cacophony of, "What about courtesy?" already. 801.01C reads:
Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.
Neither adding another's score nor telling him the correct total score when asked are "expected by the rules", and "keeping score properly" only can possibly refer to 804.03, the only place where the "proper" way to keep score is codified. (You can look it up yourself, but adding another's score or purposely concealing another's misaddition are not in violation of any of its provisions.) Therefore, "What about courtesy?" is a red herring.

Purposefully misrepresenting an incorrectly-added score to the effected player in the hopes of securing a penalty for the arithmetically-challenged is, indeed, reprehensible behavior, but the sanction should come from outside the umbrella of the PDGA rules. Maybe a HotTub-style "haircut" would be appropriate.

Neither adding another's score nor telling him the correct total score when asked are "expected by the rules", and "keeping score properly" only can possibly refer to 804.03. (You can look it up yourself, but adding another's score or purposely concealing another's misaddition are not in violation of any of its provisions.)

At the risk of yet again quibbling about minor wording in our rules, you say that "keeping score properly" only can possibly refer to 804.03, which is the physical act of recording scores after each hole on a scorecard. One could make the argument that "keeping score properly" as it is specified in 801.01C could extend to telling the proper score on a scorecard and not misrepresenting it.

However, that isn't as strong an argument as unsportsmanlike conduct and overt rudeness as the applicable rule here which I am much more likely to point to. The competitor went out of his way to boast to another, or to the group, that he personally knew of the error yet said nothing because he despised the competitor and/or to gain an advantage.

Here's a sidetrack question, but close to this thread.

In a few tournaments there are individual cards given, instead of writing a new card for every round (environmentally this is good!). IOW, every player has an individual scorecard for the total tournament, the same card used throughout for each player.

Can each player keep his/her own card, or should the cards be given to one person, or cards mixed among all the players in that group?

Since people in the group take turns with the scoring, all the cards should be kept together, otherwise whoever is keeping score would have to take the card from each player, record the score, then hand it back.

if you had telekinesis you'd putt better.

It's not fair for me to use it during a round, so I don't. :)

A bit late, but a word on checking a score and not point out an error that you see is not like watching someone move something in front of their lie without saying anything, it is like having someone approach something in front of their lie and telling them it OK to move it after they ask you about it.

Bottom line is, check your own scores and total your own scores. All the rest is pointless.

Here's a sidetrack question, but close to this thread.

In a few tournaments there are individual cards given, instead of writing a new card for every round (environmentally this is good!). IOW, every player has an individual scorecard for the total tournament, the same card used throughout for each player.

Can each player keep his/her own card, or should the cards be given to one person, or cards mixed among all the players in that group?

The cards should definetely be given to one person. If somebody wants to keep their own score, they can, but the official scorecards should stay in a group.

I know alot of people that carry a score book to record all of their rounds, this is a great idea to track personal progress. It also helps in the event of discrepancy on the cards.

Bottom line is, check your own scores and total your own scores. All the rest is pointless.

Agreed. If you total and check your own score correctly, then everything else is utterly moot.

But if you notice an error with another's score and if you fail to say anything and if you openly brag to others that you intentionally said nothing, then we have a problem.

Agreed. If you total and check your own score correctly, then everything else is utterly moot.

But if you notice an error with another's score and if you fail to say anything and if you openly brag to others that you intentionally said nothing, then we have a problem. That's bad sportmanship and bad karma. I refuse to allow anyone on my card to turn in a wrong score. I check my score, double check other scores, then triple check all scores one last time before I turn in. I don't want to win over someone because they added the score wrong :-)

When someone in your group forgets to turn in the cards after a round everyone on that card gets stroked. That's why I feel the same thing should happen in the above scenario.

When someone doesn't turn in the cards, the other players basically do not have any control over that unless they all walk with the holder of the cards to the scoring table and physically make sure they get turned in.

That's why I feel it would be a good idea to stroke everyone on the card that has scores turned in that aren't correct. This way there will be group accountability just like in the case of the forgotten score cards.

It makes sense to me.

You've got a point there.

But as separate issues, each person is responsible for his own score, no one in particular is reponsible for the scorecard itself.

As a TD, wrong scores are a hassle, and if there weren't a penalty, wrong scores would be a HUGE hassle as some folks would essentially leave it up to staff to get it right. But missing scorecards are much rarer.

When someone in your group forgets to turn in the cards after a round everyone on that card gets stroked. That's why I feel the same thing should happen in the above scenario.

When someone doesn't turn in the cards, the other players basically do not have any control over that unless they all walk with the holder of the cards to the scoring table and physically make sure they get turned in.

That's why I feel it would be a good idea to stroke everyone on the card that has scores turned in that aren't correct. This way there will be group accountability just like in the case of the forgotten score cards.

It makes sense to me.

The group doesn't get stroked because it is the fault of the group. Each individual gets stroked because they are each responsible for their own card. I don't let other people take and turn my scorecard in, because they may forget and roll off to lunch.

USDGC makes everyone in the group keep each players score, and all the cards must match when submitted.

When someone in your group forgets to turn in the cards after a round everyone on that card gets stroked. That's why I feel the same thing should happen in the above scenario.

When someone doesn't turn in the cards, the other players basically do not have any control over that unless they all walk with the holder of the cards to the scoring table and physically make sure they get turned in.

That's why I feel it would be a good idea to stroke everyone on the card that has scores turned in that aren't correct. This way there will be group accountability just like in the case of the forgotten score cards.

It makes sense to me.

Not to me.

There is no 'group accountability' for the cards. Each player is responsible for their own score and their own card. If you allow someone in your group to take all the cards in, you have abdicated responsibility for your card, and are accountable if it is not handed in on time. If you have scored your card correctly you have completed your responsibility in that regard. It is not your responsibility to verify that anyone else's card is correct.

[
USDGC makes everyone in the group keep each players score, and all the cards must match when submitted.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like this should be standard procedure for all tourneys.

It is not your responsibility to verify that anyone else's card is correct.

...don't you think it's the mature/professional thing to do. I have never played in a tournanment where someone didn't ask me to verify their score being correct or not. I have never said anything like "it's not my job" to them. That would just be rude and unsportsmanlike.

The usdgc has the right idea.

So if both people add incorrectly, who's fault is it? It certainly is not the second person (who may or may not be able to add). It is called personal responsibility.

As to the forgotten card issue, I ensure that the card is turned in, either by being the one who turns it in, or walking to tournament central with the one holding the card. That is also part of personal responsibility (even if the group were to be penalized for it, it is each individual's responsibility to ensure the card arrives).

Plus, it gives the opportunity to have additional conversation on the way to TC.

As to the USDGC's method, I agree that it works. However, that does put a big onus on the TD's to produce the scorecards, and it makes the end of the round potentially longer.

So if both people add incorrectly, who's fault is it? +.

Must have at least 3 players to make a group. If they all can not add, then they should all be stroked.

Last year at the Vibram Open @ Maple Hill a friend of mine got done with his round looked at the score card the 9s where right. Then when the person with the card added the 9s he miss added my friends total score. Thus resluted in him getting stroke and missing the cut by 1 stroke. Not checking yours and others scores is a bad idea for any one even if you shot crappy or trust the person adding em up. That cost my friend at least $250 ooouucchhh

801.01 Courtesy C.

Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation.

Keeping score properly to me means writing down the proper scores if you have the card and/or not forgetting to write then down before the next tee-off... I could see a few holes missed being a problem of remembering everyones total. In no way do i see this rule pertaining to adding up scores after the round.

As much as it pains me to do so, lets look at what happens at our stick and ball cousins. If you hand in an improper scorecard in tournament golf, you are disqualified. Not the entire twosome or threesome, who are (I believe) also supposed to keep a card on you.

This is a direct correlation, and I do not see why it would need to be any different in our sport. And I have been stroked for this exact thing, took it like it should be taken, I am much more careful in adding my scores.

Let's put it this way: when compared to ball golf, we are quite lucky that it is only a two stroke penalty!!!

And I am willing to help people add their scores when asked. However, if I make a mistake, it is still not my responsibility, it is that individual players.

804.3

E. At the end of the round, each player shall sign his or her scorecard indicating that he or
she attests to the accuracy of the score on each hole and the total score. If all the players
of the group agree that a hole score was recorded in error, the score may be changed prior to
the scorecard being turned in. Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept
responsibility for the scores reported.

(2) If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, including omission of the total score, the director
shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score. These penalty throws are not added when the TD (or an official designated by the TD, such as a course director) corrects a player's score for other infractions determined after this player had turned in an otherwise correct scorecard.

I think the electronic score cards would be very useful for some people in this discussion :-).
1) You won't have to add your scores
2) Your scores can be updated Live on the internet
3) You can keep track of your scores online

Heck, if this thread gets any larger I think I may just have to invest in stock with these gadgets. (Jeez, 2nd grade math guys).

[
USDGC makes everyone in the group keep each players score, and all the cards must match when submitted.

Sounds like this should be standard procedure for all tourneys.[/QUOTE]

We tried this at the Jersey Jam. It was met with mixed feelings. Some players really liked it and some did not.
It didn't slow the event down as some thought it would.
We couldn't take the time the USDGC had, to go over the cards with everyone, but there were no math errors we found.
Getting everyone to fill in the card the same way was a failure but this was a first try.
It totally took away the stigma of having the cards.

Bob