Ok I posted this in a previous thread just to make sure I had the right idea.

So just to clarify...

A player can determine a lie to be unplayable if the tee pad for the 3rd shot is more beneficial than playing from the said lie for 2nd shot, regardless of if it is playable?

For example, a fairway shot can be declared unplayable by the thrower if it lands near a bee hive? And if we're going that far...an imaginary bee hive?

There are times when I'm playing by myself when I say "oh f*** that shot...I'm re-teeing for my third stroke. It's a 4 from here and 5 from there..." That's legal in PDGA sanctioned play?

I played in a tournament today and I was told by someone who was an official at the 2008 PDGA Worlds (he was in my group, not the TD) that if I wanted to drop a shot I had five meters around where I was dropping, unless I was OB. Let's just say the hole would have gone better if I was allowed to re-tee but he told me I couldn't do that.

I told him that you can drop anytime you want as long as you put it on the line of flight and he said it's not the line of flight but the line of play. So you have five meters to work with directly behind your 1st shot.

I didn't have a rule book on me and I just assumed he was right and I was playing so terribly that it didn't matter what I scored so I just said I'll play from my lie.

So...was everybody wrong in the thread that I posted my original quote from or was he wrong?

If you can post, you can read the rules. It is not a complicated rule. The line of play is defined in the definitions.

If you can post, you can read the rules. It is not a complicated rule. The line of play is defined in the definitions.

Thank you for that informative statement.

Had I known a "definitions" section even existed I wouldn't have asked the question. I bow down to your superior knowledge and I'll never ask another question about anything regarding rules because there is a book that exists that explains everything about the rules and I'm going to read every single page and word two times before I even think about asking a question. I mean seriously...**** the internet...we have the libraries.

I wasn't upset about the ruling or the fact that so many people are so misinformed. But your attitude needs to take a ******* hike. Don't treat me like an idiot because I asked a question. Treat that people that misinformed me like idiots.

Better tell this guy he doesn't know the rules as well as he thinks he does...

Yes. 803.06A as shown before.

A player can declare any throw unplayable. It is up to the player.

If a player declares a shot unplayable, they can do two things:

1) Throw from the unplayable lie up to 5 meters behind the lie in the line of play. Line of play runs from the center of the target through the center of your marker in a straight line. This is the same line of play that is used for ever shot that is thrown. When you place your foot behind your marker, by the rules you should be standing on the line of play.

2) Throw from the previous lie.

Either option, you count every disc that is thrown, including the unplayable lie throw and add 1 penalty.

A player can declare any throw unplayable. It is up to the player.

If a player declares a shot unplayable, they can do two things:

1) Throw from the unplayable lie up to 5 meters behind the lie in the line of play. Line of play runs from the center of the target through the center of your marker in a straight line. This is the same line of play that is used for ever shot that is thrown. When you place your foot behind your marker, by the rules you should be standing on the line of play.

2) Throw from the previous lie.

Either option, you count every disc that is thrown, including the unplayable lie throw and add 1 penalty.

Thank you, this is the kind of response I was looking for.

I had been awake for about 46 of the last 48 hours after playing the worst two rounds of my life so I wasn't exactly in the greatest mood...

You could have played a provisional in this situation, stating that you'd rather re-tee if you were to find out that was an option.

Unless another player can show you the actual rule in the rule book, don't believe them. When in doubt, take a provisional.


Better yet - carry a rule book!

Thank you for that informative statement.

Had I known a "definitions" section even existed I wouldn't have asked the question. I bow down to your superior knowledge and I'll never ask another question about anything regarding rules because there is a book that exists that explains everything about the rules and I'm going to read every single page and word two times before I even think about asking a question. I mean seriously...**** the internet...we have the libraries.

I wasn't upset about the ruling or the fact that so many people are so misinformed. But your attitude needs to take a ******* hike. Don't treat me like an idiot because I asked a question. Treat that people that misinformed me like idiots.

Frankly, the first thing I did, upon receiving my PDGA stuff in the mail after joining, was read the rulebook front to back, and start asking questions. I knew there was a "Definitions" section from the start. Your not knowing about it is ONLY your fault, so please, don't take it out on anyone else. If you play tournaments, it's only to your own benefit to know the rulebook, and carry one. Have you ever read the rules Q&A? That's pretty important, too.

I didn't have a rule book on me and I just assumed he was right and I was playing so terribly that it didn't matter what I scored so I just said I'll play from my lie.

Are you posting from the teebox?

If not, I think you should issue an apology to brakel. You've had plenty of time to crack open your rulebook and take a look at it since the end of your round. No need to be an arse to brakel over his response here. He plenty of other stuff to warrant that! :D

The rulebook is like 42 quarter-sized pages. You can read it cover to cover is about 3 dumps.

Are you posting from the teebox?

If not, I think you should issue an apology to brakel. You've had plenty of time to crack open your rulebook and take a look at it since the end of your round. No need to be an arse to brakel over his response here. He plenty of other stuff to warrant that! :D

The rulebook is like 42 quarter-sized pages. You can read it cover to cover is about 3 dumps.

Nothing personal...I just don't see a need to belittle people for asking a question. If anyone responded to me in that way I would have said the exact same thing to him. The only stupid questions are the ones we don't ask.

I already said I wasn't upset about what inspired me to ask the question. I could have aced the hole and I still would have played like crap. I was seeking knowledge to cure my ignorance...not a snide remark.

So Brakel...Sorry for not knowing the rules. I was under the impression that this section of the forums was dedicated to questions or statements about the rules. Next time I'll be sure not to ask a question and just perpetuate my ignorance to everyone I meet. After all of the times I've read the rule book I still have a question or two...I must be some kind of sped.

The same point could have been made without sounding so smart.

It is not a complicated rule, the line of play is defined in the definitions.

If you're going to quote me, don't give me fictitious bad punctuation. Just quote me.

I didn't think Merkaba was really looking for a rules clarification. Looked to me like he was looking for a pile on the official who remembered the old rule and not the new rule. If Merkaba was looking for a rules clarification, he could have just read the rules. It is not an unclear rule.

While Bruce's response was short and to the point (a rare feat for many attorneys), I don't think it was rude. Merk was apparently not willing to take the time to look the rule up, and it seems Bruce didn't want to do it for him.

I think I have a pretty good grasp on the rules, but I will never, ever offer a ruling during a tournament (or league, or casual round) without looking it up first. It is much easier to read the rule aloud to the entire group, than to argue who is most qualified to make the call. The rule book always trumps "know-it-all" touring pros and officials (even those that worked at Worlds). If players still cannot agree on the interpretation, use provisionals and let the TD sort it out.


If anyone, including officials or top pros, profess to "know" a rule - DON'T BELIEVE THEM. Always require them show it to you first. If you don't have a rule book to hand them, you deserve the outcome and should not whine about it later.

If you don't have a rule book to hand them, you deserve the outcome
That's the best line of reasoning I think I have ever seen here.

It is just a bit severe, but not much.

So Brakel...Sorry for not knowing the rules. I was under the impression that this section of the forums was dedicated to questions or statements about the rules. Next time I'll be sure not to ask a question and just perpetuate my ignorance to everyone I meet. After all of the times I've read the rule book I still have a question or two...I must be some kind of sped.

UGH! Disingenuous debating technique FTL!!! :mad:

Way to go WAAAAAAAAY over the top and out of context. Nice job reacting poorly to statements that were never made. Way to throw out a bunch of insults that were never levied against you in a BS response that sounds especially whiny and victim-ey.

In response to your lame response above: this is in fact the proper place to ask question about the rules. But in order to do so it would probably be best to actually the read the rule you claim to not understand. Try to read the applicable rules, try to come up with what you think the right call is, and ask why this wrong since a PDGA Worlds Official disagrees with it. You would probable have gotten a nice and concise "the official was wrong" discussion and avoided all the drama.

But please be sure to ignore that last paragraph and just go off against the first part of this post, because this is the internet and fighting is more important than the rules.

UGH! Disingenuous debating technique FTL!!! :mad:

Way to go WAAAAAAAAY over the top and out of context. Nice job reacting poorly to statements that were never made. Way to throw out a bunch of insults that were never levied against you in a BS response that sounds especially whiny and victim-ey.

Didn't you get the memo from the Ministry of Culture? Victims are the new heroes.:p

UGH! Disingenuous debating technique FTL!!! :mad:

Way to go WAAAAAAAAY over the top and out of context. Nice job reacting poorly to statements that were never made. Way to throw out a bunch of insults that were never levied against you in a BS response that sounds especially whiny and victim-ey.

In response to your lame response above: this is in fact the proper place to ask question about the rules. But in order to do so it would probably be best to actually the read the rule you claim to not understand. Try to read the applicable rules, try to come up with what you think the right call is, and ask why this wrong since a PDGA Worlds Official disagrees with it. You would probable have gotten a nice and concise "the official was wrong" discussion and avoided all the drama.

But please be sure to ignore that last paragraph and just go off against the first part of this post, because this is the internet and fighting is more important than the rules.

I have no interest in fighting. I just want to know the rules. I want everyone to feel welcome to ask questions about rules they don't understand because I desire a better understanding of the rules for all disc golfers.

I ask questions to find an answer...my fighting online is saved for Team Fortress 2. ;)


http://fugsconvoy.hlstatsx.com/hlstats.php/sig/106395_random.png
(http://fugsconvoy.hlstatsx.com/hlstats.php)

Again...nothing personal and I hold no grudges. I just don't want to see that attitude of "I know so you should know too" on a forum dedicated to questions about rules.

Merk,

Usually, when somebody has a question about the rules, they quote the rule that they have a question about, and then state their question concerning it, be it an interpretation, etc.

If you had referenced the rule in question, you probably would have answered your own question. I think that's what Bruce, in his barristerly (sp) way, was trying to say.

In general, it's more conducive to post a question that states a rule, your interpretation of it or your application of it in a certain situation, then to ask for others' opinions, than it is to make a post, not that you did, of course, like "Is there a rule about X?", or "What does rule Z mean?"

I noticed a player who marked their disc with a mini. They then put the disc (that they picked up) on top of and foward the rear of the mini they used to mark that disc. Is there a rule or anything that defines that action?

As long as the disc was not between the lie and the hole, and they did not use the disc to improve a lie in an unallowed manner, they can put the disc where they want. Not sure what you meant by "on top of and foward" though.

This disc was between the lie and the hole. As I would consider the back portion (edge) of the mini marker. (Where you place your foot.) It was laid on top of the mini marker, forward the back edge of the marker.

This disc was between the lie and the hole. As I would consider the back portion (edge) of the mini marker. (Where you place your foot.) It was laid on top of the mini marker, forward the back edge of the marker.

Per my reading of 803.03 there's nothing that says the last played disc can't be put on top of the marker, as long is it's 1)not intended to BE the marker, since it was moved 2)not affecting play in any way.

The only reason I can think of to do such a thing is so the marker is not forgotten. :confused: I don't see any other rule that stipulates where the last thrown disc can be.

I noticed a player who marked their disc with a mini. They then put the disc (that they picked up) on top of and foward the rear of the mini they used to mark that disc. Is there a rule or anything that defines that action?
I do that. This is why: I try to keep my tournament rounds feeling like a casual round so I don't get nervous. In a casual round I either don't mark or I flip. So in a tourney I either don't mark or I mark and then flip.

As long as the disc was not between the lie and the hole, and they did not use the disc to improve a lie in an unallowed manner, they can put the disc where they want. Not sure what you meant by "on top of and foward" though.

Why would placing it between the lie and the hole not be allowed?

There is no such rule.

If you are extending the argument that this would be using an artificial device to aid in making a throw, I don't think it aids in making a throw. I will often place the mini, then place the previous disc on top of the mini with the back half of the mini visible.

Why? Not to aid in the throw, but so that my disc is where I don't forget to pick it up and so I don't have to bend down twice to retrieve both the mini and my disc before going to get my putt out of the basket. :cool:

You could always put your disc beside and behind your marker disc, and have the same end result. There is no Rule that addresses the exact circumstance you have outlined, and Rule 803.07 states that one should not leave equipment in an area where interference could easily occur.

So, if you are confident that having the disc there will never interfere with your throw, you can keep on doing it, but you are taking a risk, a very slight risk, evidently, in doing it.

But, if the disc is placed such that it obscures the visibility of seeing if you committed a foot fault, a player could request that you remove it from the top of your mini. Lastly, having that disc on top of your marker disc would hinder any movement of your marker disc. For example, if you threw and slid forward enough, your marker disc would move, but having that disc on top of it might hinder that movement, which could be seen as a circumvention of the Rules.

Just put your disc close to the marker, but not touching the marker, and not placed so that it would hinder any movement of the marker disc, and you should be fine.

Lastly, having that disc on top of your marker disc would hinder any movement of your marker disc. For example, if you threw and slid forward enough, your marker disc would move, but having that disc on top of it might hinder that movement, which could be seen as a circumvention of the Rules.

Except when putting, how is sliding forward and causing your marker to move against the rules as long as the disc was released before reaching the marker?

It is not, as long as the disc is released before reaching the marker. I did not mean to imply that simply moving the marker disc is against the rules.