2 queswtions.
1. like my father and i were out putting on my backyard basket, and he threw his blow fly and it landed on top of the basket, and hung off the top, it was inside the rim of the basket, just hanging, is there a rule about that?
2. i was out putting on my basket, and it was raining, i threw the dart, it wedged itself in the basket part of the basket, is there a rule about that?

my understanding is that it has to be supported by the actual basket part of the basket or chains...

therefore the one hanging off the top of the basket is not "in"

the one stuck in the side of the basket counts

On top or hanging on the top assembly or somehow supported only by the top assembly does not complete the hole.

803.13 Holing Out
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.

...........

the one stuck in the side of the basket counts

This counts so long as the disc remains stuck until removed (by player). If the disc falls out before it's removed, the hole is not yet completed.

Okay, thanks, but what do say i do, wait for everyone to throw, or go ahead and mark it,i know what the rules say about order, but is there special situations? and i am guessing that if it falls after someone's put, you take it from where it stops.Correct?

From the rules Q&A under the FAQ menu:
Disc resting on top (DROT)

Question: I putted and my disc stayed on top of the basket. Now what?

Response: Applicable rules: 803.13, 803.07.B

The short answer is that it will take you one more throw to complete the hole. Formerly, you could leave it up there and give other players the chance to save you a stroke, but the rule that allowed that (in which a disc struck by another disc was played from its new lie) has been changed. Now, if a disc at rest is struck by another disc, it is returned to its original lie.

Since the person whose disc is on top has no chance of saving the stroke, it is reasonable to ask him to mark it if it may become a distraction.

Once the disc is at rest on the playing surface or target, it will be marked where it was at rest if moved per 803.07 B.

Okay, thanks, but what do say i do, wait for everyone to throw, or go ahead and mark it,i know what the rules say about order, but is there special situations? and i am guessing that if it falls after someone's put, you take it from where it stops.Correct?


If you're asking about the disc wedged into the side of the basket, don't wait. Remove the disc, now, before it falls out!

If you're referring to the disc resting on top, it doesn't matter to you if someone knocks it off and it rolls a mile down the hill, you would still mark it where it came to rest - under the basket - and take your next throw.

Perfect time for me to interject my view on this again. If the wedgie is good, then the DROT needs to be good too. One is no better than the other. Rules committee should review this again.

DROT could never have been good. Wedgie is benefit of the doubt being "good" since it could have wedged coming from inside the basket even if you saw the disc get wedged from the outside.

Wedgie is good even if the player doesn't get to it to remove it as long as the group agrees the disc was at rest. Ask the group to make the "at rest" call on your way to the basket to remove it.

Wedgie is good even if the player doesn't get to it to remove it as long as the group agrees the disc was at rest. Ask the group to make the "at rest" call on your way to the basket to remove it.803.13 Holing Out
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed.Chuck, where in the rules is this so called 'at rest call' mentioned? It seems to me that this would be contrary to the last sentence of 803.13 and open up a 'can of worms' allowing players to circumvent other similar situations. The rule is specific; the disc MUST remain until removed.

Read the Interference rule 803.07B regarding a disc "at rest" on the target being moved. If the disc is declared "at rest" then if it moves in any way, it can get replaced where it was located (wedged in the basket) and the player may then proceed to remove it completing the hole per 803.13. The trick is getting your group to confirm the disc is "at rest" so you don't have to hustle to the basket just in case they disagree.

Groups make "at rest" calls all the time even when the disc has not stopped moving in the basket. Consider a windy day when your disc is caught in the chains. The disc appears securely trapped in the chains however the disc and chains continue to sway in the wind. The group has to effectively concede the disc is "at rest" relative to the basket so the player may remove it to complete the hole. The disc was never at rest just like you could argue a wedgie that pops out may have technically never have been at rest. And yet we grant the player with the disc in the swaying chains an "at rest" call to remove their disc.

The last line in 803.13 supercedes the at rest rule. The at rest rule is a general rule for when a disc stops. For example when it enters the water and floats upside down then the wind or current takes it to the bank. It was at rest as soon as it started floating and was not skipping. The last line is very specific for a basket or entrapment device. Must remail until removed is consistent with many other rules. For example the 2 meter rule. It could be at rest swaying in the trees but the wind knocks it down just before you place your marker. The rule 803.13 is specific for basket or entrapment devices. It was not at rest if the wind knocks it out before you retrieve it.

I'm afraid 803.13 cannot supersede 803.07. Imagine a spectator who runs and takes a player's disc out of the basket. Doesn't the Interference rule take precedence or does the player not get to complete the hole since they can't fulfill 803.13?

Wedgie is good even if the player doesn't get to it to remove it as long as the group agrees the disc was at rest. Ask the group to make the "at rest" call on your way to the basket to remove it.

It's a big stretch to use a general rule to override the clear and specific intent of a single case rule. The three specific conditions to holing out are, 1) the player must release the disc 2) the disc must come to rest is AND 3) "the disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment section until removed."

The difference between a wedgie being stolen by a spectator before the disc is "removed" by the player is a long ways from the wedgie de-wedgifying :)

That's correct. If a disc declared at rest such as a wedgie pops out, it gets "virtually" replaced in the wedged position so the player can complete the third step of holing out.

If a wedgie can't be called "at rest" then neither can a disc swinging in the chains, and the game stops until the wind does.

"803.13 Holing Out
B. Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section."


Scenario 1) I thow my putter and it hangs in the chains. I ask for and get an "at rest" call from my group.

"The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed. "

I then remove my disc from the chains to hole out.

================================================== ==

Scenario 2) I thow my putter and it wedges in the basket. I ask for and get an "at rest" call from my group.

"The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed. "

I then remove my disc from the basket to hole out.

================================================== ==

Scenario 3) I thow my putter and it wedges in the basket. I ask for and get an "at rest" call from my group. As I approach the basket, the disc falls out.

"The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed. "

I mark my lie, put the disc in the basket then remove my disc from the basket to hole out.


How could I possible use an "Interference" rule (there was no interference, by the way, it has nothing to do with what happened) to override what is clearly stated in the rule governing how to hole out?

I'm going to have to go with if you are lucky enough to get e wedgie, you better be fast enough to get it before it falls!

Scenario 4 - A player throws in a long putt and a spectator removes the disc and take it over to the player congratulating him. Has the player holed out or does the Interference rule allow the player to replace the disc in the basket so he can remove it to officially hole out?

The Interference rule covers all instances when a disc at rest supported by the target or playing surface is moved in any way. In your scenario 3, the player gets to "virtually" place the disc back into the wedgie position to complete holing out.

The trick is getting your group to confirm the disc is "at rest" so you don't have to hustle to the basket just in case they disagree.

Interference aside (dumb scenario anyway), what you're saying is that if the disc is wedged in the basket, declare it 'at rest' and save yourself the trouble of running to remove it before it pops out despite the fact that the rule explicitly states that the disc MUST also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed. That's BS Chuck and contradicts the rule as written. I've seen my share of wedged discs and in every case, the thrower raced to the target to remove the disc because as the rule states: The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed. BTW - 'until removed' does not specify by whom the disc must be removed. Although, one could apply 803.07B and surmise the intent is that ONLY the thrower of that disc can remove the disc at rest, it does not prevent anyone else from doing so.

You can't exclude the wedgie hole out from the 803.07B allowance to replace any disc at rest on the target that moves just because people in the past have run to the basket. Running should never have been required. I checked my 1993 rulebook and I can see why players were used to running before the current rules update. At that time, any disc above the ground was still in play if it got moved by the wind or even a competitively thrown disc. However, the current rule specifically allows a disc at rest on the target to remain in that exact position regardless what happens to move it before the player's turn.

We don't require players to run and mark their disc if it's perched on top of the target or maybe leaning on the edge of a drop off near the pin. The Interference rule is there as much for safety as it is for making sure players get to play the lie where their disc ends up at rest.

Cool! I ain't runnin' no mo!! If it's wedged, it's dead!

btw - That's always been my opinion anyway and it's gratifying to have you agree. Now we just need to clarify it in the rules!!

Now.... what's your take on a disc hanging outside the basket? Been there, done that. Twice!! Is it at rest? I guess it depends on the wind. How long does it have to hang before it's declared at rest? My guess is that as soon as it's hanging, it's at rest. Otherwise, it would fall.

The problem is not the rule but the requirement for the group to call your disc "at rest." I think many including myself still like to work people and see them run if they get a wedgie. :) I specifically asked the Rules Committee if we could get a definition of "at rest" to allow a count such as "One Mississippi, Two Mississippi, etc." but they wouldn't go for it. So we're still left with the group judgment of "at rest" whether it's a wedgie or hanging on a nub outside the basket.

But you almost always end up making that call, right? After they've run all the way back, of course.
I only get arguments when pointing out this is how it should be played (in most cases); clearly a case for a rewrite.

Only if the group gives the "at rest" call. If a wedgie pops out before getting the "at rest" call, then it was never considered at rest and you play if from where it lands on the ground.

You can't exclude the wedgie hole out from the 803.07B allowance to replace any disc at rest on the target that moves just because people in the past have run to the basket. Running should never have been required. I checked my 1993 rulebook and I can see why players were used to running before the current rules update. At that time, any disc above the ground was still in play if it got moved by the wind or even a competitively thrown disc. However, the current rule specifically allows a disc at rest on the target to remain in that exact position regardless what happens to move it before the player's turn.

We don't require players to run and mark their disc if it's perched on top of the target or maybe leaning on the edge of a drop off near the pin. The Interference rule is there as much for safety as it is for making sure players get to play the lie where their disc ends up at rest.

This is another case of the rule not being written clearly enough to effect the intent and be uniformly interpreted, like the "use of alcohol" language. The rule says "if a disc at rest....is moved" not "if a disc at rest....moves". The rule should say "moves or is moved" to cover being moved by a person or outside force as well as the disc's own stored energy created by it being jammed into a space smaller than the diameter of the disc.

I agree Chuck that it is silly to run up to a disc and retreive it in these cases. Perhaps the language can be tweaked so that the intent is clear to all players and officials.

I think I know the answer to the following questions, but I want to make sure...

Can a wedgie be ANY where on the bottom entrapment device?

IE; a disc skips in front of the basket and wedges into the bottom of the basket...where the disc wedges underneath the basket in the very bottom spokes of the basket...

Yes. I actually witnessed one on the old baskets at Acorn Park in Minnesota in the early 90s.

Thanks for replying Chuck...