What the heck is it, exactly? I have heard a million different versions, and can't for the life of me figure it out. I don't see it in the rulebook besides when talking about taking a meter in-bounds, and perhaps that is its only application, but I was under the impression that some version of the rule governed the normal run of play as well. We have some courses here in Montana, like the famous Diamond X course, where this rule would be called into question all the time because of the various crevices, overhangs, caves, etc., that your disc always seems to end up in.

Thanks for the help.

The rule applies to how one marks your lie when OB (or near OB). See 803.09.C

What if your disc lands in bounds under a bridge? Can you take the lie on the bridge as long as it is directly above the lie?

No. There is a rule Q&A on stacked playing surfaces which covers this very subject.

http://www.pdga.com/faq

We had a questionable lie on our course where the "rule of verticallity" came in play.

The hole is 250'. There is no fairway. It is an island green. The hole shoots directly over a pond. The pond has a four foot chain link fence surrounding it. The fence has been bent over from people climbing it to retreive plastic. A drive landed "on" the fence where it was bent over. The disc was elevated above I.B..

Normally, we play the pond and anything inside the fence, as O.B.. But, this disk was resting on the fence, elevated from the I.B. playing surface.

We made the call...according to the rule of verticallity...that the disc was in bounds. The spot was declaired, and 1 meter releif was given from O.B..

Let me know what YOU would have done.

If the fence was tipped toward IB and the disc was flat against the OB side of the fence and above the ground with none of its rim projecting above the fence, then my call would have been OB. However, if any of the disc was projecting past the top of the fence over IB area or it was on the IB side of a fence that was leaning toward OB, then my call would be IB.

We had a questionable lie on our course where the "rule of verticallity" came in play.

The hole is 250'. There is no fairway. It is an island green. The hole shoots directly over a pond. The pond has a four foot chain link fence surrounding it. The fence has been bent over from people climbing it to retreive plastic. A drive landed "on" the fence where it was bent over. The disc was elevated above I.B..

Normally, we play the pond and anything inside the fence, as O.B.. But, this disk was resting on the fence, elevated from the I.B. playing surface.

We made the call...according to the rule of verticallity...that the disc was in bounds. The spot was declaired, and 1 meter releif was given from O.B..

Let me know what YOU would have done.Regardless of whether the disc is in bounds or out of bounds, the mark for the next throw will be the same spot. I would have played from that spot and asked the TD at the end of the round. The other thing I would do would be to advocate that in the future we play by PDGA rules.

The rules call for an o.b. line, not an o.b. object. Then they call for a vertical o.b. plane that is defined by the line to be used for discs above the playing surface. You could solve your tricky rules issue by playing by the rules. Define the o.b. line as the point where the fence meets the ground and the solution is easy.

If the fence was tipped toward IB and the disc was flat against the OB side of the fence and above the ground with none of its rim projecting above the fence, then my call would have been OB. However, if any of the disc was projecting past the top of the fence over IB area or it was on the IB side of a fence that was leaning toward OB, then my call would be IB.
Obviously a spurious ruling. 803.08A addresses this case explicitly:
If a disc comes to rest above the playing surface in a tree or other object on the course, its lie shall be marked on the playing surface directly below it.
So if the disc comes to rest directly plumb above IB, the resultant legally-marked lie is IB; if it comes to rest directly plumb above OB, the resultant legally-marked lie is OB. If comes to rest above the playing surface in such a way that it "straddles" the vertical OB plane, 803.09A comes in:
A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area.
and the resultant legally-marked lie would be IB.

Bruce, we made our decision on the basis that the ob line was where the fence meets the ground. Also the rule of verticallity...when we marked the lie directly below the resting position of the disc, it was I.B.. Just like a disc that comes to rest in a tree. If the spot directly below the lie is in bounds. Your Safe. If the spot directly below the disc is O.B...then your out!

Sorry Vegan, check out the multiple surfaces Q&A ruling by the RC. A bent over fence is just like a bridge arcing over the ground. If the bridge surface is declared OB and the ground below is IB, a disc landing on and completely surrounded by the bridge surface would be OB. If part of the disc was hanging over the edge and the surface below it was IB, then the disc would be IB.

Sorry Vegan, check out the multiple surfaces Q&A ruling by the RC. A bent over fence is just like a bridge arcing over the ground. If the bridge surface is declared OB and the ground below is IB, a disc landing on and completely surrounded by the bridge surface would be OB. If part of the disc was hanging over the edge and the surface below it was IB, then the disc would be IB.
That is so preposterous, I can't accept that you even really believe it, Shuck (or is it Jive?). While a bridge may be considered a playing surface, a slightly warped chain link fence could obviously never be, so no "stacked playing surfaces" nonsense.
If a disc comes to rest above the playing surface in a tree or other object on the course, its lie shall be marked on the playing surface directly below it.
I therefore conclude that your apology is for being either a fabricator or preternaturally dense. Either way, I appreciate your humility (LOL) & accept.

A bent over fence is not a playing surface. It is not analogous to a bridge.

The space inside a fenced area or building can be declared OB even if the official line is where the fence or building walls touch the playing surface. There's no condition that the walls or fence be bowed inwards away from IB (or perfectly vertical) for a disc landing inside these boundaries to be called OB. If the disc is leaning on the wall or fence that is bowed out over IB, it will not be considered IB if the TD declares the area inside as OB. Yes, it may be a special condition but it doesn't appear the Comp Director has had to provide a waiver under such declarations.

As the rule stands right now the fence bottom along the ground is the true default OB line unless the TD does something strange and calls the top of the fence the OB line projected downward which is as foolish as Nick's branch tips. So, it doesn't make any difference if the fence is bent over in terms of making a call. If the fence is bent 45 degrees toward the IB side of the ground, a disc leaning on the fence completely on the OB side probably has part of the disc IB so it's IB. If the RC had allowed vertical surfaces to define OB (similar to the multiple horizontal surfaces that can now be identified with one OB and the other IB like a bridge over water), then the disc leaning on the OB side of the fence would always be OB if that side of the fence could be called OB. I think that's what they wanted but missed adding the section about vertical planes being identified as OB. So we're stuck with the line on the ground being the identification of a perfectly vertical plane where it's OB on one side and IB on the other. -Posted 04-04-2006, 08:48 PM by CK

The space inside a fenced area or building can be declared OB even if the official line is where the fence or building walls touch the playing surface. There's no condition that the walls or fence be bowed inwards away from IB (or perfectly vertical) for a disc landing inside these boundaries to be called OB. If the disc is leaning on the wall or fence that is bowed out over IB, it will not be considered IB if the TD declares the area inside as OB. Yes, it may be a special condition but it doesn't appear the Comp Director has had to provide a waiver under such declarations. Classic Shuck & Jive red herring. Disc was never described as leaning, but as having come to rest suspended in an object (fence) above the playing surface. Therefore, unequivocally:
If a disc comes to rest above the playing surface in a tree or other object on the course, its lie shall be marked on the playing surface directly below it.
If the legally-marked lie is now within the area declared by the TD to be OB, it is OB. If not, then not.

Impressive "shotgun blast" argument style over the last several posts, Shuck, but the rulebook just deflects every pellet.

I'm afraid competition precedent along with the Special Conditions rule top your assertions simply going by the rulebook. Aw, shucks!

I'm afraid competition precedent along with the Special Conditions rule top your assertions simply going by the rulebook. Aw, shucks!
Another blast; another miss.

So how many sources for rules do we have?
Rule Book
Competition Manual
Rule Q&A
Competition Precedent

Chuck, as I've posted you've come down on both sides of the fence on this one.

The original question was, "How would I rule," and I gave my answers with rationale. I guarantee that if there was a fenced area on a course posted with danger signs and your disc landed in it, you're going to be called OB by any player in your group looking at your disc leaning on the fence that's bent outward over IB. And the TD would uphold that ruling despite you showing the verticality rule and later appealing to the RC or Comp Director that your shot shouldn't be called OB.

Bruce stated that the mark would be same either way, but I don't think that is right. Another Q&A dealing with fences states, in part, that "the OB line itself has flexed. " Also, the same Q&A states that "Since 803.09 A states that the �line itself is out-of-bounds".

So, if the disc was ruled OB, the last IB would have been when it initially crossed the fence to go over the pond.

I am leaning toward the disc being OB. Clearly, the intent is that if the disc was inside the fence, it was OB, and the disc was clearly inside the fence.

As far a Bruce saying that they were not playing according to PDGA rules, I take exception to that as well. Let's say you have a conical structure on the course, and this structure has a small bottom and large open top, and the TD states that anything inside the cone is OB. Say that there is a ledge in the structure, and your disc lands on the ledge. If you drop down vertically from the disc, through the side of the structure, you would be outside of the structure, on the ground. That does not make your shot IB. If the TD specified that anything inside the structure is OB, then anything inside the structure is OB, and there is no need to construct an OB line.

So here, if anything inside the fence, which the disc clearly was, is declared OB, it is OB, and there is no need to construct an OB line.

It's OK to have OBs like this. Like Chuck said, if a building is OB, and you land on a second story porch that overhangs the building, the disc is still OB, because there was not an OB line defined as the base of the building, the OB was defined AS the building.

Once you say "Anything inside the cone is o.b.," you no longer have a line and a vertical plane defining o.b. Accordingly, you are no longer playing by PDGA rules, and will have to consult Chuck Kennedy for any further interpretations.

The RC realizes that the bent fence issue never really got addressed directly with the multiple surface Q&A and needs to be dealt with in the next rules update. However, "inside the building/fenced area is OB" has been around for a long time with verticality being overlooked when this encapsulated space is defined as OB this way by the TD.

I guarantee that if there was a fenced area on a course posted with danger signs and your disc landed in it, you're going to be called OB by any player in your group looking at your disc later appealing to the RC or Comp Director that your shot shouldn't be called OB.

Unless you are Barry Schultz in ATL.

That whole scenario was a setup for you Keith. Roll the video....

You mean this? :)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/08fMJIef0YM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/08fMJIef0YM&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Once you say "Anything inside the cone is o.b.," you no longer have a line and a vertical plane defining o.b. Accordingly, you are no longer playing by PDGA rules, and will have to consult Chuck Kennedy for any further interpretations.

Geez, and people call ME a zealot...

OK, if you want to play that way,

You have an infinite number of vertical lines, with an infitesimal height, which varies as the slope of the inside of the conical structure varies, and when there is a change in height, there is a new surface, and, hence, a new definition of IB/OB. Kinda like calculus.

Water can be called OB without a defining line and has been for years, and so have artificial structures, like buildings and _areas on one side of a fence_.

I like what Chuck said in #22, and that was similar to what I said. If you think that having an OB area designated by the TD that is not defined by only ONE defining line is against PDGA rules, send a message to the RC.

What it comes down to is lack of efficient OB designation.

If the OB is called as "the fence", then as Chuck says, it's IB if any is over the edge to the IB side. If it's totally on the fence, then it's OB.

But, if the OB is, as it should be properly, designated as "the point where the fence meets the ground", then it's IB no matter what, at least if any part of the disc is on the IB side.

I believe the fence can be properly called the OB line/surface so you don't have the "unacceptable" scenario where a player lands clearly on the OB side of the fence but due to maintenance issues, the fence is leaning/damaged so the player gets an IB call. The surfaces issue for OB needs to be better defined in the next rules update.