johnrock
May 08 2009, 04:48 PM
Player A and B tee off and both drives end up in the water. Player C throws and lands safe. Players A and B proceed to a drop zone and Player C says, "There is no drop zone for this hole". Players A and B both advance and throw from what they believe is the drop zone and each make another throw from there. Player C goes back to the tee area and verifies that there is no drop zone marked on the map of the hole (maps made specifically for that event), and since there is no rules sheet and no mention made of a drop zone in the players meeting, calls a halt to the progress and requests an official decision from the TD. The TD says no drop zone for that hole. What happens next and what penalties are applicable?

exczar
May 08 2009, 04:54 PM
They should throw from the tee box, and get a throw added to their score for throwing a practice throw. Had they declared their shot from the alleged drop zone to be a provisional shot, there might be some debate here, but since they clear threw from a spot where there was no reason to throw, they should be penalized one throw for the hole.

johnrock
May 08 2009, 04:59 PM
So that next throw from where it last crossed IB or from the previous lie (tee box) would be for a "4"?

exczar
May 08 2009, 05:06 PM
Oh yeah, they can play from the last IB spot as well as the tee box. Either way, they would lying 3, ready to make their fourth shot.

johnrock
May 09 2009, 03:26 PM
Let's say that this occured during Round 3 on Sunday.

What would be the proceedure if this same infraction happened during Round 1 on Saturday (several players playing from a non-existing drop zone), and a player informed the TD after the round about the infraction? What if it wasn't brought to the TD's attention until Saturday after Round 2?

cgkdisc
May 09 2009, 03:52 PM
Read 804.03E(1). Penalties can be assessed when discovered until TD declares event is completed.

Jroc
May 12 2009, 12:34 PM
Let me play devils advocate here...

801.04A says that its the responsibility of the players to know the course and the rules specific to that course. If there is no rules sheet and no rules mentioned at the players meeting, how can players be expected to follow rules they know nothing about? I suppose questions should have been asked before players threw from drop zones, but it still seems unfair to hold players to rules that aren't layed out.

Heres another twist... Lets say that this same tee sign was used the previous year on the same hole (remember, there is no drop zone marked on the sign), but last year there was a rules sheet and it DID specify a drop zone if you went in the water on your initial tee shot. And, lets say that player A, B, and C all played last year. So we have a drop zone painted, we have a tee sign that specifies no drop zone, and a memory of how the hole was played the previous year (drop zone). If these are the only references players have, how can you penalize players proceeding through the hole under either scenario?

cgkdisc
May 12 2009, 12:54 PM
You penalize them if they didn't use the provisional rule to make sure they covered the possible scenarios.

KMcKinney
May 12 2009, 01:45 PM
If there is no rules sheet and no rules mentioned at the players meeting, how can players be expected to follow rules they know nothing about?

From the scenario, it sounds like the players where trying to follow rules that aren't there, not rules they didn't know about.

johnrock
May 12 2009, 03:13 PM
Any special "rules" (GROUND RULES) need to be specified at the time of
THAT event. You can't expect players to use the GROUND RULES from previous years' events, unless you give them a copy of the rules for those events.

The reason to be specific is because players in different areas of the country don't always interpret the rule book the same as others.

For instance: The grumbling caused in the first round about these "non-existing" drop zones was due to players from another town advancing to the drop zone because "My disc never touched INBOUNDS". The hole in question (#3) has an OB creek on the left that many players will throw a left-to-right turning shot that goes over the OB side of the creek. Sometimes these tee shots don't make it back into the fairway. This hole had NO drop zone and did not have a drop zone in previous events. These players from the other area normally play Tee shots that don't make it back into the fairway as OB, but you get to advance to a drop zone. They say this is correct because your disc never ACTUALLY TOUCHED any IB area, regardless of the fact that your throw crossed the boundary in flight. I've tried arguing this point with them several times over the years to no avail. They are stuck on the fact that your disc has to TOUCH inbounds or it's off to the drop zone.

So now you get different groups playing the hole different ways. Those who advance to the drop zone because they "never touched IB" get an easier next shot than the player who goes by the rule book and plays from last point IB or previous lie.

Jroc
May 12 2009, 04:21 PM
I was thinking about #8, didnt realize it was #3. The scenario I described happened on #8.

Your right....no Drop zone on that hole either year. The Rule of Verticality seems to spell it out plainly, odd that they interpret it differently?

johnrock
May 12 2009, 05:27 PM
Like I mentioned, we have been over this many times. They feel their interpretation is right, I'm firm in my belief. Even when I asked to be shown in a rule book that a disc has to touch IB to be delared IB, They still won't conceed the fact that their call is wrong.

I believe some of those guys have played some other big-time events where this rule has been used for special occasions and they have just adopted it for speed of play reasons.

I'm fine with it either way, I just want everyone in the event to play the course the same way.

gnduke
May 13 2009, 12:20 AM
If there is no drop zone specified on the map, handout, player's meeting, or tee sign, there is no drop zone on the hole for the event. Even if the TD intended to have one, but failed to document it or cover it in the player's meeting. It should be used during the round unless every player is informed before they play the hole.

If noticed before a second shot, it is a one throw penalty; if the hole is completed from the drop zone, it is score plus two.

TexBook
May 13 2009, 03:40 AM
Yikes! This thread is complicated and if you didn't see and/or play the holes it would be really hard to understand how complicated and frustrating it was for some involved. I didn't play but I was there as a spectator and wanted to pass on a few observations.

Jerry, Rock can correct me if I'm wrong, but Post #1 was about Hole 8. Post #10 was about Hole 3. Regarding Hole 8: to further complicate the senerio there was a very clear "DZ" painted at the short tee. This was a DZ for the hole last year.

It's cool to have really interesting and unique holes. Often they are designed to enhance risk and reward senarios through the use of OBs, DZs, Mandos, Special TD Rules, Special Casual Rules, and Course Rules. Other things this can create are various interpretations and confusion. I asked some of the Lubbock Pro players how they played Hole 8 and they were split; some playing last IB and some used the DZ.

When a situation like this effects your game it's not unusual to look for someone to blame for your misfortune. Well.....that person is frequently the TD. But this isn't "The Apprentice" and firing the Project Leader isn't an option. Rather, it would be great to rally behind the guys and gals that try their best to put on these events and to make the next one better.

Some things to do to avoid this type of conflict: (certainly not all inclusive, just some things I thought of while writing this)

1. Know the rules.
2. Carry a Rule Book to enlighten those who don't know the rules.
3. Pay attention at the Players Meeting.
4. Get the TDs cell phone number.
5. Design holes to avoid confusion.
6. And the simplest of all: Follow Chucks advice. When in doubt, use provisionals and figure it out after the round.

Peace Out

Rob

Jroc
May 13 2009, 11:28 AM
I think thats correct Rob. I started out getting the 2 holes reversed, but both had created several issues that got people pretty testy.

pterodactyl
May 13 2009, 01:47 PM
Peace Out

Rob

Dang, you "are" cool!!

But, man, I tried calling the TD, but he was on hole 17.

geo
May 14 2009, 12:31 PM
You can cross in and out of bounds three or for times in one throw and you always have to play it at the last point where it went from in bounds to out. They should have been throwing 4 from the last point it was in bounds, penalty for water and penalty for practice throw. You can have tons of spray paint on the ground but if the T.D. doesn't state anything about the paint it doesn't exist.

pterodactyl
May 14 2009, 02:26 PM
You can re-tee.

gippy
May 18 2009, 09:24 AM
Any special "rules" (GROUND RULES) need to be specified at the time of
THAT event. You can't expect players to use the GROUND RULES from previous years' events, unless you give them a copy of the rules for those events.

The reason to be specific is because players in different areas of the country don't always interpret the rule book the same as others.

For instance: The grumbling caused in the first round about these "non-existing" drop zones was due to players from another town advancing to the drop zone because "My disc never touched INBOUNDS". The hole in question (#3) has an OB creek on the left that many players will throw a left-to-right turning shot that goes over the OB side of the creek. Sometimes these tee shots don't make it back into the fairway. This hole had NO drop zone and did not have a drop zone in previous events. These players from the other area normally play Tee shots that don't make it back into the fairway as OB, but you get to advance to a drop zone. They say this is correct because your disc never ACTUALLY TOUCHED any IB area, regardless of the fact that your throw crossed the boundary in flight. I've tried arguing this point with them several times over the years to no avail. They are stuck on the fact that your disc has to TOUCH inbounds or it's off to the drop zone.

So now you get different groups playing the hole different ways. Those who advance to the drop zone because they "never touched IB" get an easier next shot than the player who goes by the rule book and plays from last point IB or previous lie.

If you go OB and there is no drop zone wheather you were IB any where you play it from last place IB. So if they throw OB off the tee and it never comes back they'd be throwing their 3 from last place IB. This is how i see the rules being read. If there is a DZ then it wouldn't matter where they went OB shot 3 would be at the drop zone. Right?

gnduke
May 18 2009, 04:29 PM
No, The rule allows three options for a disc that comes to rest OB.
1. The previous lie...
2. last point inounds
3. Drop zone (if provided).

The TD may restrict these options on any or all holes.
If a drop zone is provided, it does not mean that the player does not still have the other two options unless the TD restricts play to the drop zone (or previous lie and drop zone; or last inbounds and drop zone....).

Greg_R
Jun 02 2009, 01:59 AM
What would be the proceedure if this same infraction happened during Round 1 on Saturday (several players playing from a non-existing drop zone), and a player informed the TD after the round about the infraction? What if it wasn't brought to the TD's attention until Saturday after Round 2? Then those players had a failure to hole out, 803.13a, which is a 2-stroke penalty + the original score. Intentional failure would of course be cheating / DQ.

cgkdisc
Jun 02 2009, 09:19 AM
Not exactly. The players legally holed out but played from the wrong lie which is still a 2-throw penalty by not playing the stipulated course 801.04E.

Mystery
Jun 02 2009, 09:49 AM
No, The rule allows three options for a disc that comes to rest OB.
1. The previous lie...
2. last point inounds
3. Drop zone (if provided).

The TD may restrict these options on any or all holes.
If a drop zone is provided, it does not mean that the player does not still have the other two options unless the TD restricts play to the drop zone (or previous lie and drop zone; or last inbounds and drop zone....).

Having a course dominated by water, this comes into play all the time for me at our local events. The player always has the choice of the first two. The third choice is the trick. If you provide a DZ, then you give players the option. IF you restrict them to play from the DZ only, then the debate is finished.

Each player that finished the holes from the Unofficial DZ should have 2 strokes added for each instance. I would suggest that you give out a rules sheet with the Banishment of DZ on the hole in question and have the statement bold. If you clearly mention the debate and the procedure in your player's meeting, then they should be stroked.

bruce_brakel
Jun 02 2009, 10:20 AM
Not exactly. The players legally holed out but played from the wrong lie which is still a 2-throw penalty by not playing the stipulated course 801.04E.Wow. I agree with Chuck. 801.04D, also.

cgkdisc
Jun 02 2009, 10:23 AM
Except that D is when the misplay is discovered during the round and his question pertained to after the round was completed so E would apply.:)

bruce_brakel
Jun 02 2009, 11:44 AM
Correct again. I'll have to notify the moderators that someone has hijacked Chuck Kennedy's account and is using it to post correct rules interpretations. :D