A friend was at a tournament recently and had a drive straddle the OB line. The group all agreed that the disc was safe. The TD saw them looking at the disc and walked over and called it out.

Does the TD have the authority to over-rule when the card has unanimously agreed that a disc is in bounds?

From: 804.09 (http://www.pdga.com/rules/80409-officials):


D. Non-playing certified officials may actively make rulings during any tournament play that they witness. If an official competes in a tournament, he or she may not officiate for any ruling within his or her own division. The official's ruling supersedes the ruling of the group, but an appeal may be made to the tournament director. The director may empower non-certified officials to act as spotters for a specific purpose. The ruling of such a spotter supersedes the ruling of the group.



The TD is a certified official, and assuming the ruling was not within his division, the official's ruling supersedes the ruling of the group, right?

one correction. he clarified to me that it was not the TD but rather "the guy who blew the 2 minute horn and collected the cards".

so...if this guy was certified the ruling stands.
if this guy was not certified, he can petition to get the stroke back?

p.s. this rule sucks. if the group is in agreement about a judgment call, the TD should have no authority to over-rule.

An official always trumps the group consensus.

An official spotter has similar authority whether they are certified or not, but that authority only extends to the job they are assigned by the TD.

The TD is responsible for the event and has the last call. Even when Marshals are present, they can make recommendations, but the TD makes the call.

I would always play a provisional where there is a question about the ruling unless the TD has already made the ruling.

If you have a cellphone, take a picture.

Gary
IF the official who makes the call is the TD then who would you send the picture to?
I got my membership package this week and there was not a copy of the current rule book enclosed. Did anyone get a new copy this time? (I paid for a five year membership September of 2006, any more of you multi year members still waiting for their package? It took about the same time last year.)

Prime example of why you should carry a rule book

Got one and do, but thought a new one came with the package.

Got one and do, but thought a new one came with the package.



New members receive a rulebook. Renewing members receive one when there is a new version.

TDs get a few extra in their packet if they request one be sent. Now though, TDs may not be requesting the mailed packet on their sanctioning form.

A friend was at a tournament recently and had a drive straddle the OB line. The group all agreed that the disc was safe. The TD saw them looking at the disc and walked over and called it out.

Does the TD have the authority to over-rule when the card has unanimously agreed that a disc is in bounds?

One time the TD told his spotters, if you are certified officials, you have the authority to call the rules on the course. During the round a player didn't like the big, downed branch obstructing his line to the basket so he ran forward three or four steps, moved the branch out of his way, and the spotter called him on it. The spotter was carrying the rules and showed the player the rule prohibiting moving anything between your lie and the basket. The rule calls for a penalty without a warning. The spotter told the player that, too. On the next hole the group decided that the spotter was full of [censored] and they overruled the spotters call. I think eventually the TD added the penalty stroke back onto the player's score, but he had no problem with the players over-ruling his certified official without appealing it to him.

Anything can happen at a PDGA sanctioned tournament. You never know what a TD can do until he does it. If he sends in his TD reports and money right away, he has almost unlimited power. :D

If the TD makes the call, there is no higher authority in any practical sense. Even if the call is wrong. You can lodge a formal complaint about the call and/or have it discussed at length on here, but the event standings will likely not be changed unless it was a very serious offense.

I agree with what Gary wrote. The TD is usually the ultimate authority at the tournament. The PDGA has a form that you can fill out giving feedback about an event, and if you wish, you can fill it out, giving your version of what happened.

The PDGA can decide to take action as far as having the TD run future events, but that event standing are pretty much locked in. You might be able to petition to get more points for the event, but since the TD dispurses the prize money, there is nothing the Association can really do there.

the answer as people have stated is yes, the td can overrule the group. if the group is made up of 4 friends or 4 players without spines, calls tend to not get made or get made gently. therefore the officials or td can make calls that no one wants to make and the group cannot dispute it.

the problem described is similar to something that happened in my group over the weekend. and the player had an understandable qualm with an ob call, and the td happened to be right there when it happened. he still wanted to dispute it after the fact but had begrudgingly played it how the td called it and holed out. the problem i bring up here is that many people complain or disagree with a call, but fail to play a provisional. this guy could argue up and down that he should have been in bounds, but he didnt have a recorded score for that situation. he only had a score for the disc that was ruled OB. so if the td wanted to overturn the ruling, he would have to assume that the player WOULD HAVE made the putt from the original spot it came to rest.

i see this often, players arguing a call but failing to have a recorded score for the way they thought it should have been played. and for every hole left in the round, they are stewing and talking about the call and how they can dispute it. if people are upset or unsure,... PROVISIONAL!

even if its an ob call, where the lie would be similar or the same, as in the original question here, have two scores recorded on the card from playing a provisional.

Though the player did not call a provisional, if the disc were within 1M of the OB line, the lie would have likely been the same for either shot. Per 803.01.D.5 the TD could adjust the score if the appeal was overturned. If the mark would have been in the same location for either ruling, the TD could just remove the penalty and allow the rest of the play to stand.

803.01.D.4 needs to be revised to specifically allow for a provisional to be played when the player disagrees with the official's call. As written, play continues using the official's ruling pending an appeal to the TD. The wording in 803.01.C.2 and 803.01.D.3 clearly state that provisionals should be used when the player disagrees with the ruling of the card or an official.

i agree. the reason i said it the way i did is due to the situation i just encountered.

a player threw and it landed across a faded painted line. the line was there to keep people from having to take a stance on a dangerous flooded steep riverbank, but the program stated taht the river was ob. the painted line was defining the river. the player threw a foot past the line, but was still where he could have taken a stance. so if the line wasnt there, he couldnt have taken it a meter in. he was told it was ob, took it a meter in from where it crossed and holed out, unhappy. he then didnt have a legit score for if it would have been IB. i assume he would have made it from 4 feet further away, but i cant guarantee it by any means. therefore, he should have played both locations and recorded both scores.

but yes i agree about what you said about the wording of the rules.

Gary Duke, I'm pretty sure that the provisional rule allows you to play a provisional if you disagree with an official's call. Hold on...

Here it is, 803.01(C)(2): "(2) To appeal the group's or an official's ruling: A set of provisional throws may be taken to complete a hole pursuant to 803.01 D(3) when the player disagrees with the majority group decision and an official is not readily available, or if the player wishes to appeal the decision of an official. "

Having also read (D)(4), I can see the confusion. I think if you read (C)(2) and (D)(4) together, it is clear that you can take the provisional and appeal the official's call to the TD.

The rule about continuing under the official's decision predated the provisional rule and probably should be changed. Although, I suppose if honors on the next tee becomes an issue, honors would be decided pursuant to the official's ruling, and in that sense you are continuing under the official's ruling.

The language about continuing under the official's ruling might also have application where the issue is going to come up again, or is going to be a continuous issue, like if someone were to challenge the legality of your Gateway putter. :D Are you going to call over an official every time you want to putt to get another ruling? Are you going to take a provisional on every putt, once with your Voodoo and once with your Wizard? I think here you're supposed to continue on with whatever he ruled.

But you're right. it's not clear what it means to continue on under the official's ruling now that we have the provisional rule.

The background before the soapbox.
Reading things as written is where I get into trouble.


803.01 C Provisional Throws
803.01 C.2 allows the use of provisional throws when a player disagrees with the majority decision and an official is not readily available per 803.01 D(3). It also includes use of provisional throws to appeal an official's decision with no other rules reference.

803.01 D Appeals
803.01 D(1) covers no group majority and who can ask for an appeal to a group decision (no mention of provisional).

803.01 D(2) covers appeals where an official is readily available to make the call (no mention of provisional).

803.01 D(3) covers appeals where no official is readily available. This rule states <font color="blue">"if the thrower does not wish to continue play under the group's majority decision, the player may declare a provisional per 803.01 C." </font>, but continues with <font color="blue">"The use of provisional throws is encouraged in all situations where the thrower questions the group's or official's ruling."</font>

803.01 D(4) covers appeals to the TD where an official made a ruling that the player disagrees with (no mention of provisional throws).

803.01 D(5) covers the TDs options when a ruling is overturned on appeal.





Situation: Player A disagrees with card ruling of OB and an official is nearby. He wishes to appeal and opens the rule book:

<font color="blue">Option 1 - No majority decision.</font>
Nope, the group has made a decision, next step.

<font color="blue">Option 2 - an official is readily available </font>
This is the one.
<font color="blue">The groups stands aside to seek the official's ruling, allowing other groups to play through.</font>

<font color="red">Additional problem: the player disagrees with the Official's ruling.</font>

Options 1&amp;2 have been done.
<font color="blue">Option 3 - no official is readily available.</font>
Nope, the official being available is part of the problem.

<font color="blue">Option 4 - Appeal an official's ruling to the TD.</font>
That's the one.
<font color="blue">"If the director is readily available, the appeal is heard directly"</font>
<font color="red">"If the director is not readily available, the group shall continue playing under the official's ruling."</font>

BUT

If the player had instead read the provisional throws rule (or even the inapplicable option 3 above) he would have seen that provisional throws are encouraged in appeals of official's rulings.


Which brings me to my point. There is little question as to the intention of the rules committee as to the intention of the use of provisional throws as they relate to situations where player's disagree with the ruling of an official, but 803.01 D does not allow for the use of provisional throws when an official has made a ruling.

The wording needs to be changed to match the intention.