I ask this only because I am planning on playing more tournaments this year, and I need to get a good feel for how players are playing, because I want to have a good time with my group, as well as play well. The last major tournament I played in. I was starting to set up for a short putt, and someone else chipped their shorter putt in, and I said something to the effect that I didn't mind them putting out, but please ask next time, and I got this "Oh, c'mon, Bill" comment, so I didn't say anything about the order of putting short putts for the rest of the round.

So is this normal practice? If several people have short putts, whoever wants to can putt first, regardless of who is technically farthest away?

From other threads, I am assuming that on long, open holes where or other type holes where drives can be scattered, no one makes any effort to watch for foot faults.

I think that tee order still matters, so I'm OK there.

How about how the rules say to keep score, to say each player's name to solicit the player's name, repeat the score the player says, then to write that score down and proceed to the next player. If the scorekeeper doesn't repeat the score, do you say anything? Also, would it bother you if someone in your group had a separate card where he noted what everyone got on every hole? Wouldn't/doesn't bother me, but I know that I am not the typical tournament golfer, at least what is typical in the late 200Xs.

Just one more. Do you make it a habit, if you happen to be near the player in the rough, that they take a stance that does not restrict anything in front of them, or however the rules say?

If you reply, for brevity sake, use the following abbreviations:

SPO: Short Putting Order

SK: Scorekeeping

FOL: Leaving stuff in front of lie alone


I appreciate your honest and constructive feedback, and I would also like to know what other rules you think I should not make an issue of when playing under normal tournament conditions.

This is not a rule, but I would like your opinion, because this happened at the last event I played in. I had a difficult lie in some brush, and was having a hard time setting up. One of the other players, was nearby, watching me throw, and presumably, watching my stance, and since I was trying to throw out and forward, he was in my line of sight even though he was a little down the fairway from me, since I am basically facing the fairway.

Would it have been rude to me to say something like, "I'm sorry, [name], but it makes me a little nervous to have you staring at me while I am trying to throw, and even if I accidently foot fault, there is no one to second your call. Would you please either go back farther down the fairway, or up closer to the hole, so that you are out of my line of sight?"

Thanks,

SPO, technically the away player's option, other players should ask. I will normally mention it if they do not ask, and always ask if I wish to go out of order.

SK, I always keep score according to the rules repeating all scores and stating my own. I usually list the tee order too.
I will often ask the score of the player that is keeping score so that at least all scores are spoken at least once.

FOL, Always make sure anything between the lie and the hole is not disturbed except in the rare case where there is no other way to reach the lie, and in that case verify that nothing is disturbed that does not return to its proper place before the throw.

The rules do not guarantee you a field of vision with nobody standing in it. Just no one further down the fairway than you and no one making distracting motions or noises. If they are being still and quiet and are not further down the fairway they have no need to move. However, it has been my experience and that players can be distracting just by being there and most understand and will move is asked.

As far as no one to second a foot fault, I would hope that the player taking the shot would step up and second the call if it was valid.

Gary,

Thank you for your opinions. Your actions regarding the first two are basically what I would do, but do they mirror other players in your groups, and were you able to exercise those actions without hard feelings?

Re: no one to second the foot fault. What if I were stretching to throw the shot, and the observing group member said I lifted my foot before I threw the disc? I am not watching my feet when I throw. I know I lifted my foot, but I cannot say for sure that it occurred before I threw, so I cannot second the call. It's kind of like a jump putt, if it was challenged, I doubt the putter could say one way or another if there was a foot on the ground at the instant the disc was putted.

SPO: I think if everyone is in "nonchalant toss in" range, the order doesnt matter. If anyone has a putt that they could legitimately miss or have to concentrate on to make, you shouldnt throw your disc first, no matter how close to the basket. Let them take their time and make their putt before you worry about you.

SK: Keep score as you do. If other people bother you about the formality of keeping score as per rulebook guidelines, you arent in the wrong. Just go through the list, repeat scores, and say the teeing order. It can never hurt, and mistakes will be caught. Remember that your score is affected by other players' mistakes on the card. You are only looking out for everyone's good by being cautious.

God forbid someone keep a written record of reality on their own! I wish more people kept their own scorecards.

A player is obligated to take the stance that causes the least disruption to the course. You cannot hold back or move obstacles with your legs or arms to take your stance. Your throwing motion may disrupt those things, but not your stance.

I would think that if you asked someone in a group to move out of your line of sight because it makes you nervous, it wouldn't be a big deal, but I personally perfer the following, because it works better:

"There's a good chance Im going to hit you with this next shot if you're standing there, you might wanna move." =)

All the rules count and none are more important than others.

It would be quite alright to ask the player to move if they are a distraction. They will get over it.

It is fine for other players to keep score.

SPO: Short Putting Order

SK: Scorekeeping

FOL: Leaving stuff in front of lie alone





SPO: Putting out of turn should be permitted if requested, but it should be the exception not the rule (person has to stop for a restroom break, run to the car for a disc, etc.) It's pretty selfish for a person to repeatedly putt out of turn simply to avoid waiting for others to finish.

SK: Errors are far less likely to happen if the scorekeeper calls out the name, person responds with score and scorekeeper repeats score out loud.

FOL: Absolutely not. Strictly forbidden. There's one exception specified by the rules for moving something in front of the lie.

Foot Faults are very important. They maybe aren't critically important 100% of the time, but often, breaking the foot fault rules just a little bit, can provide a huge advantage to the thrower. If someone foot faults (or breaks any rule) they should be made aware of/called on it.

Just my opinion, but players who are inclined to break one rule are likely to break other rules, too. A person with no respect for order of play is more likely to move obstacles between the lie and the hole, foot fault when it's convenient and advantageous, etc. It doesn't matter if it's for ignorance or selfishness: ignorance of the rules should be corrected by more experienced players and disregard for the rules should be discouraged for the benefit of everybody.

I like to keep up the pace of play, so when it comes to SPO, if I have a drop in putt, and more than one person has a 10'+ putt, I will wait until the first person makes their putt, and then I will run up and drop mine in as the first person retrieves their putt. But if they miss I won't do it.

Scorekeeping. Playing in Intermediate, I still hear the "I can keep score the whole round if you guys don't really want to." People said this two me 2 out of the last three tournaments I played in. No way! I guess these people think that they are clever or something. I think that every card member should keep score a few holes to keep others more honest. Call out everybody's name, and repeat what they say, then state your own score.

FOL, If it's between you and the pin, it doesn't move. I will let people know of their infractions here too.

I always wait to putt out as I'm usally below the basket...my hardest thing is waiting back as we walk up, 45 years of golf has me moving to my ball I mean Disc...I always call out names when Keeping score with a repeat along with order for the Tee...As a Rec, I have had to ask a second time what someone had, not sure if it was on purpose or just they can't count....FOL...I try and enter my lie the best not to distrub the limbs...sometimes it's hard but I do my best....I really care about the rules and am sure others are put out with me but it's part of the game and I want to Play it correctly.

Scorekeeping. Playing in Intermediate, I still hear the "I can keep score the whole round if you guys don't really want to." People said this two me 2 out of the last three tournaments I played in. No way! I guess these people think that they are clever or something. I think that every card member should keep score a few holes to keep others more honest. Call out everybody's name, and repeat what they say, then state your own score.



And you will likely hear it if you ever play on my card. I push a cart and keeping score is not a hassle for me since I don't have to dig it out after each hole. I don't think anyone I have played with would think I have any notion of trying to be dishonest.

I am also in favor of the full-time-scorekeeper-volunteer. It's usually not me, but I don't mind it at all. I generally keep everyone's score in my head anyway, so I have a general idea of where everyone's score should be and can (and have) easily detect "creativity" on the card. Force of habit from so many casual rounds.

To Bill's questions: While I agree that all rules are important and none should bear more weight, I also feel that some slight transgressions can be forgiven in the interest of fun and speed of play. If the rule being fudged is one of courtesy or procedure and not one whose bypass can result in an unfair advantage, I'll usually just bring it to their attention in a non-threatening manner, after the fact. That way they're aware of the violation but they have a chance to learn from it rather than be penalized or worse - be embarassed. I also let people know at the beginning of a round that if they're new to the sport or to sanctioned play, they are welcome to consult my rulebook or ask me any rules questions they may have.

If I were playing in a pro division for a decent amount of money, I might have a different take on the matter, but in those divisions, people should already know better.

SPO - Around here, most players have the courtesy to ask if the away player minds if they putt out. And generally (at least in the groups I play in) it happens most frequently when a players lie is past the basket - and it makes it easier for the drop ins to clear out and be out of the way for the away player.
I definitely prefer that permission be asked for and granted (per the rules) and if someone makes the assumption that its ok all the time, I will educate them about what is acceptable.
If everyone is close - it makes more sense to go in the correct order - there is no speed of play being saved in that situation.
SK - For the most part, I call out the players name with the score I believe they received - and have them respond either with the number or with a confirmation of the number I stated. I think the important part is to call out the name and have the score be announced audibly to the group. The order that this happens in, and who is stating it is less important (to me personally).
FOL - Personally - I think this rule is taken too far. To me a 3/4" stick on the ground is not an obstacle - it's debris that should be movable. It seems obvious to me that obstacles should be considered obstacles to the throw/throwing motion/flight of the disc. A stick lying partially on/in front of your mini, is no more an obstacle than any other debris or other items for which casual relief is granted. And moving such items will not alter the course in a way that impacts another player - but whatever.
However - the rule being what it is, more people ask what can be moved (which is good) and I always err on the side of the stricter interpretation. No moving stuff in front of the lie.

And you will likely hear it if you ever play on my card. I push a cart and keeping score is not a hassle for me since I don't have to dig it out after each hole. I don't think anyone I have played with would think I have any notion of trying to be dishonest.



Well since I know you, and know the fact that you're a state coordinator, I guess that would be a bit different. ;)

But there is a reason that they keep score like they do at USDGC or AM Nationals.

How do they keep score at USDGC and AM Nationals?

Every player has a score card to keep score on, and everyone must record everybody on their cards score. All score cards must match when turned in.

They should start keeping score that way at the WDGC, then spread it down to the NT, then downward from there.

Zero chance of pencil whipping.

Only question: do the players still take turns asking for scores, like they do now (804.03A)? Don't guess it would be as formal as it is now: First player asks for scores for the first 4 or 5 holes, etc.

If I am not first on the card, I cannot give the correct example of how the scorekeeper would keep score according to the rules. So, if the first person did not keep score correctly, would it be considered rude to say something like, "Is it OK if we keep score according to how the rules say?". Or should I play dumb, and say something like, "Gosh, I know the scores got written down correctly on that last hole, but I'm not sure that the way you got to that point was how the rules say we should do it. Would you mind if I looked at my Rule Book to see how it says we should do it?"

Just ask the score keeper what their score was every time they fail to say it out loud. I have noticed that people that do not follow the rules seldom state their score while writing it down.

After a couple of times they will get upset because they think you are accusing them of cheating, explain that the rules require they state their score after each hole.

This will probably lead to a more in depth discussion of what the rules require and what keeping score requires, but at least the point will be made.

How would you handle it if they simply recorded the scores without echoing them back? Ask the scorekeeper what each player got for the hole, then keep doing it until you get the "upset" scenario you described?

usually a simple "you're supposed to announce your score" works for me. might have to repeat it a few times, depending on the person. It always helps to have a rulebook in your pocket, too.

How would you handle it if they simply recorded the scores without echoing them back? Ask the scorekeeper what each player got for the hole, then keep doing it until you get the "upset" scenario you described?



I would ask them politely to read back the scores.

Recently at a tournament, I was the last to drop in/putt out and walk to the next tee. The scorekeeper had apparently already asked for scores from other players before I was in hearing range. After everyone teed, I politely asked the scorekeeper to please wait for everyone to be present before asking for scores so we could all hear them. No big deal. They were polite and waited from then on.

Me: Mike?
Mike: 4
Me: Mike 4
Me: Scott?
Scott: Par
Me: What?
Scott: Par
Me: Scott what score did you get?
Scott: 3
Me: Scott got a 3.
Me: Lance got a four.
Me: Jim?
Jim: Don't tell any one I got a five...
Me: Jim go a FIVE!!!
Me: Card warning Scott.
Scott: WTF did I do??

You could also point out that it is not uncommon for a player to call out the wrong score and someone else on the card to catch it and discuss the score with that player while it is still fresh. Much better than writing down the wrong number because no one else heard the player give the wrong score.

I think I might just mark every hole par 4 on the score card, so if someone says par, I can write a 4. >-)