i hear of a lot of guys throwing the innova roc. my midrange of choice is a dx skeeter. What can you tell me about the roc? Advice?

At this point in your DG career you are probably better served by the Skeeter you already have. Rocs are designed for people who have a high degree of skill and power. When you find that you can't throw your Skeeter hard without getting a lot of movement in the flight then it will be time to try a Roc, or its BETTER cousin, the Discraft Buzz.

the roc is AWESOME! get one and love every second of it. i started out with a skeeter and it was great but the roc was a great addition to my bag and my scores like rocs too.

the roc is AWESOME! get one and love every second of it. i started out with a skeeter and it was great but the roc was a great addition to my bag and my scores like rocs too.



Considering your occupation, no wonder you like a disc called a Roc :D.

Then it just must be me and or the Champion Roc that I have; but I find that when I need to drive with the Roc (when I need something slow and precise but too short to use a driver), I had a tendency to occasionally turn it over. This was a recent development in the last year and I attribute it to adding more snap to my game. I find that if I throw it soft and do not need more than a 125 feet, the Roc is fine, but when I need a little more, it seems the Drone is far more accurate and predictable. When I NEED something to turn over, I already have the Meteor.

if you are turning over a roc, especially a champion roc then the problem is more likely something in your form. i would ask for some help from a local pro.

: ) :

I would agree with what peanut butter jelly time is saying. If you are needing to use a Drone to prevent turning over your midrange, the problem is the thrower, not the disc. You may want to try getting a couple of putters and playing a few rounds with them, only them. Once you have mastered a long, straight flight with a putter off the tee, you will have no problems with turning over your mids. Then you'll really see how discs are intended to fly.

Back to the Roc... I'd say get a few "straight" mid-range discs (Roc, Buzz, Comet, Element, Hawk, etc.) and go throw them around in a field. You'll probably find one or two that feel the best for you personally. Add them to your bag and see how they perform under pressure situations. They're all great discs, so I think you'd be happy with any of them.

just get rid of that skeeter and grab up a dx roc (170-180) and maybe a kc pro and love every throw you make with one of the most carried discs of all time. though the skeeter was a good disc for my annies that i wanted to land as it flattened instead of fading and rolling. i am crazily partial to rocs though as you may be able to tell.

ignore the 'personally i think XXXX is the best disc ever' and all the fanatics, and use what works for you. there are tons of companies with tons of midranges. if you see someone carrying a roc, say hey can i try that a couple times, or a buzzz, or a comet, or a qms or an element.... and if it turns out that the skeeter is perfect for you, then throw the skeeter. there arent magic discs, if you duplicate Climo's bag, you arent going to magically throw like Climo (many try this) it would be nice, but it doesnt work that way. everything is worth a try, but in the end throw what works for you, not what is popular or cool.

I guess it was a matter of clarification. I was only having problems turning over the Roc when I needed something like 240 to 300 feet and could not work with a high hyzer. The Drone was perfect for lower to the ground with a mild anhyzer that would fade back in exactly where I wanted it. I am fairly confident with my Mid-Range game, it just takes three discs to do it (Drone, either Roc or Buzzz, and the Meteor) and I guess ultimately that was the point I wanted to make; that like having multiple drivers, having 2 or 3 midranges is a good idea so you have a wider selection of shots without worring about getting the perfect (an)hyzer, power, and snap every time...

Putting on the otherhand is a different story for me.

I suppose that's one of the reasons people opt for the Roc, especially in dx (my personal favorite). I'll normally have a newer max weight one in my bag for headwinds (it can take more than people give it credit for), something a little beat up because it will hold the angle I put on it, and something pretty beaten up for flip up shots or turnovers.

One other comment about Rocs: I know a lot of people throw max weight Rocs that would be fine throwing something in the 175 range (including me). The Roc's design gives it stability and predictablility in a wide range of weights. A lot of people that throw under 350' find that a 175 Roc flies on the same line as a 180 Roc, but the 175 flies 20' further.

And one final note. Snap doesn't turn discs over. Velocity does.

the advice of thezac makes sense. i dont want to push one of my discs on you. if the skeeter works then stick with it but the roc is a quality disc so if you can give it a try. just a few rounds will let you know how it will work for you.

And one final note. Snap doesn't turn discs over. Velocity does.



Right you are, Chris (we old dogs do know a thing or three). Snap (or spin) actually keeps discs from turning over. Discs turn over when the velocity to spin ratio is higher than optimum. Velocity with less spin causes flip.

And one final note. Snap doesn't turn discs over. Velocity does.



Yes! Thanks for once again stating that. I get mildly irritated when someone comments about their increase of snap and how they are flipping over stable discs when really its lack of snap that causes the problem.

More snap = more spin = more gyroscopic pressure on the outside of the disc = greater stability (also, potentially following the designed flight pattern of the disc).

The ratio of spin/velocity of the disc will determine how quickly a disc will turn or reach the gliding (cruising) phase of its flight.

I mostly get annoyed about this in relation to side arms. This lack of awareness about spin/snap is what makes people rely on stable discs for their sidearms as opposed to clean release.

Cool, I'm done with my soapbox now.

About the Roc - never liked it. I don't like the feel of the rim and the stiffness of the KC plastic. I prefer the Buzzz for most midrange shots. Better feel, slightly quicker out of the hand, potentially less glide though. Lately I've been loving the Storm and Impact and feel they fulfill the same qualities that most roc lovers admire.

TheZac brings up an excellent point though – discs should be tailored to the person, not the other way around.

At this point in your DG career you are probably better served by the Skeeter you already have. Rocs are designed for people who have a high degree of skill and power. When you find that you can't throw your Skeeter hard without getting a lot of movement in the flight then it will be time to try a Roc, or its BETTER cousin, the Discraft Buzz.


or the red headed step child the Element,
which is acutally a bit easier to throw and may even glide farther than bothm epscecially for those wioth less power!

And one final note. Snap doesn't turn discs over. Velocity does.



Right you are, Chris (we old dogs do know a thing or three). Snap (or spin) actually keeps discs from turning over. Discs turn over when the velocity to spin ratio is higher than optimum. Velocity with less spin causes flip.



what??
Increasing the spin can surely make a disc turnover more.

when I throw mid-range discs and dont want them to turn I lossen up to a fan grip to reduce the spin so that it wont turn as much,.
If I power grip and get full spin it turns more.
With this said, its also necessary to have a smooth release, because lack of spin and off axis rotation can make a disc turnover too.

I second the element being easier to throw. I took my rocs out of my bag. I like the fact that the disc has a lot of glide, especially in the winter when the tee pads are slick and I don't want much of a run up.

And one final note. Snap doesn't turn discs over. Velocity does.



Right you are, Chris (we old dogs do know a thing or three). Snap (or spin) actually keeps discs from turning over. Discs turn over when the velocity to spin ratio is higher than optimum. Velocity with less spin causes flip.



what??
Increasing the spin can surely make a disc turnover more.

when I throw mid-range discs and dont want them to turn I lossen up to a fan grip to reduce the spin so that it wont turn as much,.
If I power grip and get full spin it turns more.
With this said, its also necessary to have a smooth release, because lack of spin and off axis rotation can make a disc turnover too.



I agree with Dave. Without spin, the only ways to turn a disc that has any stability over are to start it with anhyzer or to throw with off-axis torque (no one does this on purpose...). Spin causes slow movement of the disc's nose into the down position which is why throwing slightly understable discs with a slight hyzer release produces such beautifully shaped straight or S turning flights.

Of course then there's my even more bizarre "midrange" setup at the moment of an E-Blaze, broken in ancient Proto S-Blaze, and a DX Stingray...

I'm playing around with another newer S-Blaze to try and beat it in and just started playing around with an E-Sabre.

In the last year I've thrown KC Rocs and Z Buzzes as well, but especially in cold, dry weather, I like the feel of the old E-Plastic that is grippy even in the cold. Maybe its a little fast to call it a midrange, but recently, I've just decided that if its at all windy, an E-Blaze is the upshot disc of choice for me. And it will stay that way until I start sucking again and I need a change of pace... :-)

And one final note. Snap doesn't turn discs over. Velocity does.



Right you are, Chris (we old dogs do know a thing or three). Snap (or spin) actually keeps discs from turning over. Discs turn over when the velocity to spin ratio is higher than optimum. Velocity with less spin causes flip.



what??
Increasing the spin can surely make a disc turnover more.

when I throw mid-range discs and dont want them to turn I lossen up to a fan grip to reduce the spin so that it wont turn as much,.
If I power grip and get full spin it turns more.
With this said, its also necessary to have a smooth release, because lack of spin and off axis rotation can make a disc turnover too.



Sorry, I should have said that. The majority of people that talk about snap turning their disc over are simply applying a torque angle to their throw. But I prefer to use a fork grip on nearly every one of my throws, which, while slightly reduces distance, makes my spin/snap ratio stay closer to optimal for my throw.