I was just wondering why there is no cap on advanced?

I mean I understand that for any pro taking cash over 970 they cannot play in am until there rating drops below 970.

Yet there are people that think they are an am even after there rating is over 1000. *cough* Marc Estenfelder *cough*

I think the PDGA needs to set better standards for rating and making a line between ADV and PRO. It's nice that they now allow people who have accepted cash to play am again and compete in event. However, they should be limited in the tournaments such as NT or Masters they should not be able to play am. Also if we are letting Pros come back and play until they are 970+ then we should make anyone above 970 play pro.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

There is no cap on advaced because there is no limit on how good an amateur player is allowed to be.

An amateur is someone who does not play for money.
A professional is someone who does play for money.
By definition, money is the only difference between the two.

You cannot force someone to play a sport professionally, no matter how good they are. If they want to play Amateur, they have every right to, for as long as they want.

Why is no one asking this question about college football players, college basketball players, amateur golfers -- Tiger Woods won three consecutive USGA amateur national championships, for crying out loud! Steve Nash, Peyton Manning -- weren't these guys just big baggers for staying am until they got their degrees? What kind of an excuse is that? They could have finished their degrees in the off-season. The NCAA ought to have a rule about that or something.

I think we need a federal law. If you get good at something you have to go pro or quit. It's just not fair to the other amateurs if they have to play against good players.

perhaps the reason people do not move up is the difference in cost for both membership and tournaments.

I mean seriously, if I win and get merch I can always sell the merch on ebay, etc. thus getting money and easier to beat am players then it is pros.

Why are people who accept cash allowed to play am again? I mean barring a severe injury that inhibits your abilities why should we let those who have called themselves pro by accepting cash to play as am amateur again?

A great example of this is Deamon S. winning Am Nats last year.what is going to stop him from repeating this year if his rating drops below 970 after aprils update? There should be some clearly defined line between pro and am.

If you are playing only for fun then why are you playing in competition? If you are playing in Competition then why are you afraid to move up and play with people of a better caliber and playing for cash?

Personally I play for the love of the game. I play where my rating puts me, but if I were 950+ rated I would seriously consider a move to Pro because although I love the game, I play for competition also and would want to play with people of my own caliber. I Don't mind playing with people better then me, hence although I am a rec player I plan on playing Adv in a few tournaments this year starting at bowling green.

There should be some clearly defined line between pro and am.


There is.


If you are playing in Competition then why are you afraid to move up and play with people of a better caliber?



From my (extremely) limited experience with tournaments, it is because moving up into a higher division requires one to cease smoking and drinking during the round, and some people just can't do that.
It also requires that one improves his game, and some people just can't be hassled with that.

Or bruce maybe we should make a new division called Wannabe

This would be the division for anyone over 970 that doesn't want to be pro or any Pro that wants to play am.

You don't see tiger woods playing am tournaments after we won a master. Peyton (Bad example) sorry bruce but there are limitations on college football. Sure you have the AAA hockey and baseball tat are considered Amateurs. They still get paid in cash not, here is some imaginary money to buy a new bat and ball or hockey stick etc. Other sports allow for ams to cash out. but that is not what I made this thread for so I will digress.


Mike you say that the line is clear... It sure seems to be a grey smudge then a clearly defined line. Please enlighten me as to how it is clearly defined.

Pros play for cash, Ams play for Merch

What is not clear about that?

There is no other distinction between.

There are low rated players playing in both fields.
There are high rated players playing in both fields.

The PDGA has taken the stand that no one can force a player to become a professional. They have also taken the stand that anyone that wants to can become a professional.

That answer should be put in a FAQ somewhere.

Leonardi, if you had been around longer you might have noticed a steady step-by-step effort by the PDGA to blur the distinction between am and pro. They eliminated the local bump rules that used to move higher rated ams up to pro. They eliminated the barrier preventing low rated pros from playing am. They adjusted the ratings breaks so that most of the high rated advanced players staying am would be within a reasonable ratings range from the bottom of the advanced pool, and they've allowed ams to take prizes in pro divisions and stay amateur.

I suspect that, rather than ever cap the advanced division, the PDGA will simply creep up the caps on MA2, MA3 and MA4.

Leonardi, if you had been around longer you might have noticed a steady step-by-step effort by the PDGA to blur the distinction between am and pro. They eliminated the local bump rules that used to move higher rated ams up to pro. They eliminated the barrier preventing low rated pros from playing am. They adjusted the ratings breaks so that most of the high rated advanced players staying am would be within a reasonable ratings range from the bottom of the advanced pool, and they've allowed ams to take prizes in pro divisions and stay amateur.

I suspect that, rather than ever cap the advanced division, the PDGA will simply creep up the caps on MA2, MA3 and MA4.



I understand that, But I still do not think it is right to allow a pro to win an Am Masters tournament such as the Am Nationals. If you are Pro you are not an Am. Hence, tournaments like this sould be off limits to Pros.

I understand not making people move up, but when you are an am rated 970+ you should reallty consider moving to Pro if that is the cap for Pros not being allowed to play Adv.

Anyway this topic was more to spur discussion on the matter then anything else. See you at lumberjack open Bruce?

I don't think that someone should be forced to play for cash if they don't want to. I think someone else said that Bobby Jones was an amateur his whole career. He won seven open Major titles, and 6 amateur titles.

However, I don't think that highly rated am's shouldn't move to pro. I think that many don't because staying an Am is much more attractive prize wise. It seems that cashing in MA1 vs. Open, the marginal benefit lost for every extra stroke thrown is smaller, (generally.)

Maybe if the gap between prizes was greater, we could deter more very high rated Ams.

It's just not fair to the other amateurs if they have to play against good players.



Just substitute the word MEN for the word Amateur - and there is the PDGA divisional structure in a nutshell.

You guys like to argue about Ams not playing for cash - when a majority of the so called "Am" players are reaping cash rewards by selling off their merchandise every week on ebay, sorry that's a cash reward. Period. Give em a trophy and let em try and sell THAT.

This isn't an argument about who has the right to do what.

This is about an organization promoting COMPETITION.

In competition, players compete against other players of similar skills. That's not what the PDGA promotes - couch it and way you want - our divisional system is just that a way to divide people - it has nothing to do with competition.

Give em grief Leonardi - you're right - they're wrong.

.... a majority of the so called "Am" players are reaping cash rewards by selling off their merchandise every week on ebay....



Is this true? I've seen it posted a lot, and I don't linger around ebay to check it out. But I've played Am for 13 years, played with hundreds of other Ams, and never heard any mention of selling their prizes for cash. I'm sure it happens somewhere, but often? A "majority"?

One of the ideas behind splitting the Ams into ever smaller divisions wasn't just to make "everyone a winner", but to make the winnings for any particular Am division smaller, and thus diminish the prize incentive for staying Am.

Which doesn't help much with the other financial incentive---the much higher cost of Pro entry fees in many places.

I hear it all the time David.
I hear it right after awards ceremonies.
I see it on discussion threads on this board, on the local MD board, on the DGCReview board.
It makes perfect sense - you have all these "Ams" whining about getting a butt load of plastic they never use. And instead of trading it for what they will use (which I'm sure DOES) happen - they just sell it. Is it the majority? Who knows. Is it a cash reward? Are you going to offer a cogent argument that says it isn't? I'd be interested to hear that argument.

It's funny to me to see a guy like Leonardi - who's obviously new to the scene - come to an obvious and realistic conclusion about our divisions - and to then hear all the defenders come on here and try and sweep it under the rug. What a joke.

Oh, I'm not defending the division structure. Perhaps the plastic resale market varies by region. But it doesn't seem particularly profitable, except for a handful at the top of the Am division, to pay $40 to enter, win $80 in plastic, less if they don't sell it for full retail, pay the shipping if sold online, and spend the time dealing with it.

Maybe it really is a regional difference---around here, virtually everyone rated 940+ plays pro, so maybe it hasn't occurred to anyone to hang around the Am division and get rich reselling plastic.

I read posts where a lot of people assume other people's motives. Not everyone chooses their division for financial reasons. Not everyone chooses for a chance to "be a winner" of one of a dozen little divisions. There are lots of other reasons some players choose to play Masters over Open, or Advanced Masters over Advanced, or Am over Pro, etc.

I'm also a little curious about those who feel rewards should be proportionate to performance, and are offended if a player in a different division shoots worse but wins more. Where does this leave me? Age, injuries, time, and general lack of athletic ability make me a 900-rated player with no hopes of ever getting better. If there's only one division, I'm hopelessly outclassed. If there's more than one, no matter where you draw the line, whether by skill or age, some weaker player will win something that a better player, in a higher division, doesn't, even if it's only a trophy.

Why are people who accept cash allowed to play am again? I mean barring a severe injury that inhibits your abilities why should we let those who have called themselves pro by accepting cash to play as am amateur again?



I fall into this category. I tied for near last place cash and accepted it when I was attempting to move up to pro.

I suck now and I'm glad I don't HAVE to play Open because I accepted near last place cash ONCE. :D

[..] But it doesn't seem particularly profitable



You'll see a lot of pro players complaining about am payouts, but you're right: while there are some players who sell their winnings, the vast majority of them put it in their bag or in the basement. Some of the people who complain the loudest are pros who used to be Ams selling their winnings out of the trunks of their cars or on ebay, so they "know for a fact" that some people do it.

In competition, players compete against other players of similar skills.



Odd, having several divisions separated by demonstrated skill levels seems to exactly meet that definition.

Having everyone in two or three divisions is very far from that.

PDGA tournaments are not professional competitions, they are mainly amateur events put on for the enjoyment of the membership of the PDGA. As long as the majority of the tournament players prefer this format it will endure whether the PDGA endorses it or not.

The only way that the Professional Tour will take off is with outside money and that looks to be quite a way off for now.

I hear you; but it is usually golfers that don't know me that complain. I Play for FUN! Yes, I could sell the stuff that I win; ask anybody that knows me, I 99% of the time give everything away..... to friends or new people to get then into the sport. There are countless people that I never knew that I gave a disc or something to that I see years later at the park playing in local events. I hope it is that gesture that got them interested in playing on a competitive level vs. recreation. But nothing wrong with either. Last year I played in 1 pdga tournament and very very few local tourneys. I have 4 kids, their sports and school activities come first! I spent just over 8 months laid off last year. No real income (disc golf on the Pro level is a gamble with money) I haven't the money nor the time for that level of disc golf. Fight to pay bills. I try to compete in a couple of tourney a year for a little "ME" time with friends. I have a friend that has traveled with me to BG since 2005. He is now in his 50's and I still haven't convinced him to play at BG. He walks with me to learn more about the sport. Last year I gave him everything that I won for 2nd place tie. Ask people in my groups, I will offer advise to help. I want the players in my groups to shot their absoulte best game. Those are the players that force you to play your best game. Once again with the economy the way it is, I am laid off again. This time is probably going to be worse for several reasons; but that is a different "Can of Problems". I Play for the Fun, Competition, and to make Friends. Some don't understand, some choose not to understand, and the rest Thank You! Marc Estenfelder

It's funny to me to see a guy like Leonardi - who's obviously new to the scene - come to an obvious and realistic conclusion about our divisions - and to then hear all the defenders come on here and try and sweep it under the rug. What a joke.



I'm new to the PDGA scene as well. This is my second year playing disc golf and my first year registered with the PDGA(#38364).

I played in an Ice bowl last weekend, and I originally signed up for Advanced. One of the Open players, whom I have had the pleasure of playing a few rounds with, told me that I have the skills to be playing Open and gave me the extra $10 to move up into the Open field(lest anyone think he was just trying to sweeten the pot with my money-he sweetened it with his own, which he won back!).

I plan on playing Advanced at PDGA events in 2009, and see no problem with this decision. I don't have alot of plastic; I don't have a real disc golf bag; I don't have alot of experience. However, judging from the ratings of the people I can compete with on a regular basis, I am somewhere in the 960-980 range( I guess we will find out after my first couple tournaments!). This puts me in the range of ratings that Leonardi believes should be playing Open.

I guess I'm saying that there are alot of different reasons that people play in one division or another, and you can't assume to know everyone's reason for playing the division they do. I personally will play Advanced for 1 year, and if I'm winning and have enough plastic to last me awhile, then I'll play Open from next year till forever. I think that I am different than most players, though, in the fact that I am extremely dedicated to improving my game and getting better.

From my 1 year take on the tournament disc golf scene, there aren't many people who really put alot into their game, it's just something they do for fun, and tournaments provide them with an opportunity to compete with friends in a more "formal" environment.

With this in mind, I think that the entry fees at tournaments and the prizes involved should reflect this difference in motives/rewards. The lower divisions(Novice, Rec., Intermediate, and age-protected Am divisions) should have very low entry fees and small payout. Advanced should have a higher entry fee(at least double the previous) along with better plastic payouts. Finally, Open should have the highest entry and cash payouts. This structure would allow the people who play primarily for fun to do so at the lower levels. It would allow the amateurs who were interested in serious competition to do so at the Advanced level. And it would allow the best to compete at the Open level.

e.g.
Mike's Fictional Tourney

Open - $100 (pays 40% of field in cash)
Advanced - $50 (pays 50% of field in plastic)
All other divisions- $25 (little payout, maybe player's pack, etc.)

This structure would keep "baggers" out of the lower ranks, since there wouldn't be any bonus for playing below your skill level and winning. You would have to play Advanced to have any chance of winning anything significant, and therefore the Advanced field would attract the better Am players and would foster a much more competitive environment, which will have the wonderful side-effect of making those players better and preparing them to make the leap into the Open ranks if they chose to do so!

In a gentle, kind-hearted, not player hating sort of way, what's your best guess on unrated Money Mike's first rating? He's calling it 970. Not knowing him, but knowing how unrated players estimate their own abilities, I'll take 933.

Meanwhile, there is no need to use crappy payouts and steep entry fees to sort players by skill. The ratings do that well enough. We only use two entry fees at the IOSeries, one for amateurs and one for pros. An MA4 gets the same good tournament value that an MA1gets.

If the opportunity to win cash is not enough to move most players out of advanced, it is not their fault that we don't quite have a professional division yet, just as it is not their fault that we don't quite have an amateur division either.

One consequence of applying different entry fees is that it creates a small incentive not to move up. Some players aren't motivated by the winnings, but think twice before paying extra to play in a higher division. I've seen this between Advanced and Open, as well as between various Am divisions.

A great example of this is Deamon S. winning Am Nats last year.what is going to stop him from repeating this year if his rating drops below 970 after aprils update? There should be some clearly defined line between pro and am.


The RULES are in place to prevent him from playing Am Nationals. Your entire argument seems based around the idea that Open guys with ratings under 970 can win the Am Majors... but that is completely wrong and undermines your entire argument. Open golfers under 970 can only compete at A-Tiers through C-Tiers. Amateur Nationals and Amateur Worlds are both closed to anyone that has previously accepted cash, unless they asked for and gained amnesty (rare).

Personally I play for the love of the game. I play where my rating puts me, but if I were 950+ rated I would seriously consider a move to Pro because although I love the game, I play for competition also and would want to play with people of my own caliber. I Don't mind playing with people better then me, hence although I am a rec player I plan on playing Adv in a few tournaments this year starting at bowling green.


If you're rated 950 and want the best competition, you should probably stick in Advanced depending on your location. In the midwest the truth is that unless you've hopped past 975 you're pretty much dead in the water in Open. Its even tougher in some other areas like North Carolina and Texas and some of the California regions.

In a gentle, kind-hearted, not player hating sort of way, what's your best guess on unrated Money Mike's first rating? He's calling it 970. Not knowing him, but knowing how unrated players estimate their own abilities, I'll take 933.



Thanks Bruce! I guess instead of going to Atlanta in March and Bowling Green in April and recording my first rounds at A-tiers on courses I've never played, Ill stick around Nashville and play on courses I've played for a couple months or so just so my rating is artificially a bit higher! =P

[/sarcasm]

Mike,

In smaller, non-sanctioned tournaments, it is common to have people play in a higher division than they would in a PDGA tournament.

Regarding where you play in PDGA events this year, I don't know of any reasonable person who would begrudge you playing in Advanced your first year, no matter how high your rating is, and it is admirable of you to want to step up next year to Open, if indeed you find out this year that you are stomping on the competition in Advanced.

Welcome!

I'm always telling first time sanctioned tournament players at our tournaments, play rec if you think you are good. Sanctioned tournaments are a different thing from $5 leagues. If you are really good and you smoke 'em, I'll tell everyone you never played a sanctioned tournament before.

The last guy I had this conversation with, and TDs have this conversation a lot, was dithering between advanced and intermediate last October. I talked to a friend of his privately, and then suggested he start at the bottom and work his way up. His first rating was 828. So at least he took my advice about starting at the bottom.

Mike,

Welcome!



Thanks!

Last year I did play in one tourney down in TX(LOSO) as a non-member. I played Intermediate and shot rounds rated 979, 936, and 943.

My prediction: 973! :eek:

My family and I (wife and 2 kids) all play AM. We win a ton of plastic. 10 to 15 discs every touney. I keep a couple of the cool stamps or 1st run discs, then give the rest to a boyscout troup that is raising money to build a new course. Or I wait till I have about 30 beginner type discs and give them to a local elementary school for their PE class. We love disc golf. It's in the AIR!

Amateur Nationals and Amateur Worlds are both closed to anyone that has previously accepted cash, unless they asked for and gained amnesty[..]



ORN, I've asked that the rules be changed so that players who have been granted an amnesty from Pro to Am will have to wait some period of time, hopefully, two years, before they can compete in our biggest AM events (Worlds, Nationals, etc.)

Amateur Nationals and Amateur Worlds are both closed to anyone that has previously accepted cash, unless they asked for and gained amnesty[..]



ORN, I've asked that the rules be changed so that players who have been granted an amnesty from Pro to Am will have to wait some period of time, hopefully, two years, before they can compete in our biggest AM events (Worlds, Nationals, etc.)


... ... Please don't get me talking about this. ;) Or thinking about it. lol

Just take a look at the LV event 1st place advanced -6 ..4th place in open and leading the masters...Sand bagger..... :(

Just take a look at the LV event 1st place advanced -6 ..4th place in open and leading the masters...Sand bagger..... :(

Says the 936 pro dreambagger!

Fitz isn't killing the advanced division, he would now be 18th in open, and he has home course advantage.

Is there a cap on ratings to compete in MI in June?

No, but you have to be a PDGA Am member.