I apoligize for the length. Hope its worth the read.

I know you guys read like 30 different message board manifestos on the future of the PDGA tour every year, and I don't think mine is much better than any other. But I've been thinking about the problems that the big pros encounter day-to-day as they try to make a living at this sport, and I think I can throw out a couple of unique ideas I've never seen on the board before. Maybe it isn't financially viable, I wouldn't know where to start to figure that out... but it makes sense in my head. Haha.

PHILOSOPHY ON THE PROBLEM
There seems to be a lot of conflicting interests right now in the sport. The chief concerns of an average touring pro are probably: transportation, lodging, food, and having enough cash to cover entry fees on the weekend (not to mention I'm sure they'd like to have a little more security than week to week finances if they can manage). The chief concern of the major sponsors is to grow the number of people playing both competitive and recreational disc golf, thereby increasing market size and profits. The chief concern of the PDGA is to grow and promote the world of competitive disc golf and to further the sport through sponsorship, media coverage, competition, etc, but is not solely focused on the Pros, they have the Ams to worry about (a much larger interest group). The chief concern of the local community and the local TD is to provide well run events, but not necessarily to create a financially viable system for the few touring members of our sport. As it stands, the Pros are trying to live off the fat of a rather lean cow, the amateur and recreational bodies of this sport are not large enough or interested enough to provide a serious sponsorship attraction. From my perspective, the only way that disc golf is going to be profitable for pros anytime in the near future is to insure that the interests of ALL groups are working in harmony on the pro tour, otherwise there just isn't enough money to go around.

A POSSIBLE SOLUTION
The PDGA organizes a multi-corporate sponsored team of disc golfers that travels, lives, and promotes the sport together (details to follow). This would truly be a venture only for passionate members of the disc golf community, willing to be on the road for 6-8 consecutive months out of the year. Here's the plan: the PDGA goes to Discraft, Innova, Gateway, etc. for sponsorship. Every X number of dollars buys each major sponsor a seat on the bus for one of their players, and a voice for their company at promotional events. A PDGA tour bus is created, which will transport around 20 of the most committed and skilled pros in the sport on an epic cross country disc golf tour. The PDGA will finally put its foot down and organize the NT series in a straight shot across the county coast to coast, and the bus will travel town to town along this line across the country. Here's how the schedule for these 20ish disc golfers will work: (obviously this varies depending on when the tournament starts)

Thursday: Practice day. The team will be dropped off at the upcoming event�s course or courses for practice rounds, etc.

Friday-Sunday: Tournament time. The team is provided transportation to and from the tournament all three days on the bus. I�m not sure how exactly you would work this, but my guess is the players would have to pay some sort of tax on their winnings into a group fund that is covering transportation, lodging etc. in conjunction with sponsorship dollars.

Monday morning: The team travels to its next destination on the tour. As often as possible, the entire team will stay together: cabin facilities at state parks, low cost hotels, camping... I'm not sure exactly. Its essential though that you create a situation where these 20 can support each other, cook, hang out, etc. in one community� so they don�t go crazy on this trip. Haha.

Monday and Tuesday: The PDGA and the sponsors served the players, getting them to the event, helping them live cheap on the road and put away some earnings. The middle of the week is the part where the players pay the PDGA and the sponsors back. These 20 pro golfers are headed to the nearest city�s biggest malls, shopping centers, and special events (college sporting events, minor league baseball games, high school football, whatever) to promote and SELL the sport of disc golf. I�m not just talking about halftime shows. I�m talking about setting up booths where individuals are encouraged to try out putting or driving, get tips from top pros, buy plastic, and even join the PDGA. 5 of the 20 will be identified as the junior promotional staff, and will instead hit every Physical Education class, college campus, and scouting event they can manage over the course of the early part of the week. This is a huge disc golf awareness campaign. And guess what? Everyone that shows up at the demos and booths is handed a *free* ticket to spectate at the upcoming weekend�s NT event just down the road. I know you aren�t going to get a ton of people to show up at first. But lets say you give out 5000 invitations, and even just 3% of those people show up to see the Final 9 at the NT events. 150 spectators per weekend would be a decent start towards building an audience for our sport.

Wednesday Night: This is another situation where the payers can give back. The tour bus is taking the team to local league events, doubles, etc. They will be promoting, but they will also be playing with the local crowd. Maybe a small profit will be made on the little cash payouts, but the important thing is that they show up and be a part of the local disc golf communities that are hopefully supporting them on the road. If the local area is installing a course or doing some work during the week, all the better. It would be great to see the team show up in force to help really improve local courses.

Thursday: Practice day� (see above)

There are a couple of additional things the PDGA could do with this tour bus to get maximum bang for their buck�
(1) Put a PDGA staff member on the bus. I know we probably can�t afford another staff member at this point, but at some time in the future the bus could carry a PDGA tournament liaison who would serve as a marshal at each stop and would carry with them the necessary technology for live scoring, etc to every NT event.
(2) Put a Billy Crump type one or two man video team on the back of the bus. Bring every NT event to the PDGA members streaming live over the internet, and sell advertising. It�ll be pocket change at first, probably only $100 or so dollars in revenue per event, but I guarantee you that this area of disc golf media will snowball big time over the course of the next decade.
(3) Sell the sides of the bus. I know how you guys hate the banner ads� haha� but the fact of the matter is this bus will be on the road and parked at malls and sporting events all across the country all year, and that would be an intriguing advertising opportunity even to companies that don�t already have a few toes in the disc golf world.

The PDGA gets what it wants, a serious promotional effort for the sport, and possibly some opportunities for advertising revenue. The sponsorers get what they want, someone out there selling their product and expanding the recreational market. The Ams get what they want, touring pros showing up on league nights, teaching lessons, making them feel like the �Pro Cash� skimmed off of their entry fees are going to support efforts to make the sport as a whole better. The TDs and clubs get someone to help out with the local course projects one weekend a year, and an added draw for their weekly events. The Players� well, these lucky few anyway� get the 8 month disc golf tour of a lifetime, the community of a real touring team, and the currently rare opportunity to make some cash off of this sport.

an interesting idea. my first reaction is that a real 'live-in' tour bus only supports 5-6 people, not 20. And you'd have to pay a full time driver, unless one (or several would be better) of your touring pros has a commercial license.

There's some good thoughts, but it will never come to fruition unless some disc loving millionaire decides to throw capitol at it without expecting return.

When the sport is big enough to support a real pro tour, there will be a real pro tour. Until then, we would be better off focusing our efforts at getting bigger.

Thanks for your comment.

20 was an arbitrary number, I guess I can see how smaller might be better. But I'm not talking about living on the bus, just riding around in it. Now maybe any living alternative other than "on the bus" is too expensive for disc golf income to bear at this time... and in that case what you're really looking at is an exxagerated RV trip, not a bus in conjunction with other living arrangements. The reason I thought you should shoot at a bigger number than 5-6 would be that you want a larger promotional staff during the week.

I can also see point 2, that the money just isn't there. But I don't think this is all that much more outrageous than what guys like Geoff Bennet are doing right now... I think you can actually make a case that you SAVE money by traveling in a group (especially on gas), the serious downside is that you pretty much lose the possibility of staying with locals at their houses.

It would be a very high risk venture financially, certainly. But the sponsorers are already throwing money at these players, so if you take all of those funds, reroute the PDGA money that is currently poured into NT promotions, add the profit from disc sales at the events the bus visits, tax the players winnings, add the advertising from the bus... i think you could nickel and dime it down to a small loss if it was run smart, and over a 10 year period you might make some money *IF* your efforts actually do have a significant impact growing the sport.

I guess that's what I'm saying. These guys' livlihood would depend on their proficiency at promoting disc golf as well as their proficiency on the course, not just on the course as it is now.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The idea is to find a way to make the pros promoters of the sport. to take the money that allows these guys a meager life on the road currently, and turn it into a machine that benefits the entire sport by (1) vastly increasing the promotional efforts of the PDGA and (2) creating a legitimate professional group, albeit extraordinarily small.

Can we please elect you somehow? I think having touring guys head out promoting the sport half the time they are out on tour is a great idea and it would be much easier to do if there was some type of PDGA help scheduling such promotions.

That is part of the reason skating got so big with Pros going to towns and showing off in front of kids.

Of course the pro skaters drew paying spectators to offset the touring expense. No indication yet that would happen with disc golf.

Of course the pro skaters drew paying spectators to offset the touring expense. No indication yet that would happen with disc golf.



Not really, they created interest which then turned into revenue for their sponsors. I'm sure the PDGA would like an extra 2-3 thousand members a year and I have a feeling that could be created along with many other who pick up the sport but do not join.

If exposure is what the sport needs why not send some of our best players out to try to teach the sport? Maybe $1 from each entry could go to pay for it? :D

Interesting idea.
Certainly worth more discussion.
The concept is sound.
It does provide upside to all the stakeholders.
I'm not sure you could get anyone to commit to that schedule for 8 months though much less 20 of the top players.
Keep working on the idea.
Nice

Interesting idea.
Certainly worth more discussion.
The concept is sound.
It does provide upside to all the stakeholders.
I'm not sure you could get anyone to commit to that schedule for 8 months though much less 20 of the top players.
Keep working on the idea.
Nice



You could get 10 for sure if it followed a decent NT schedule and provided enough benefit to the players as well as those they would be trying to reach.

Hey everyone, thanks for the additional input. As Chuck and scooter discussed previously, I don't think the money at least initially is going to come from spectators. Skating serves as an interesting example that our sport would do well to take notice of: Chuck is absolutely right that spectating is the route to becoming a revenue sport, but huge, passionate, recreational participation is in my mind THE step between where we are and spectators. I would guess that 99% of the people that watch PGA events live play golf on a regular basis... we need that huge base of people that love this sport, and thats what the PROmotional tour would help with.

Somebody is thinking, maybe already typing "we have a recreational base now, but zero spectators." I know, I know. But by in large, there are 2 distinct communities in disc golf: the people that play PDGA tournaments, and the people that have no idea they exist. I think you need to grow the recreational community, but at the same time raise awareness of this organization.

Finally, let me say that after the feedback I have received, I increasingly believe that 10 is a better number than 20. But to those who would still argue that you can't get 10 guys to commit to this schedule, I would have to side with scooter. I'm not looking for Ken Climo, Barry Schultz, and Nate Doss to jump on board. These guys are kind of becoming strictly NT attendees and probably home a little more often than the guys on this tour will be. I think the guys you want on this trip are the youth and the road warriors. Maybe not the absolute top 10 in the sport, but rather really talented, fairly young guys with bodies that can take this kind of schedule, guys that LOVE disc golf, who are high energy and would make good promoters. Instead of thinking of the World Ranked Top 10, think about 10 guys under 30, with no wives or kids, rated 1005+ or so, who just plain love disc golf. Those are the people that could make this work.

I bet you could get Nikko, Paul M, Will, Garrett, Matty-O, Barsby, Ulli, Bennett, Feldberg, Avery, and there are quite a few others who I'm sure would love to do such a thing.

Seems like we could target the youth audience as well considering there are more and more young guys playing at a high level now.

Out of curiosity, what would be the incentive for the promoters and local volunteers?

Are enough people willing to work for free and still maintain day jobs/families/houses and so on so these 20 people can make a living?

I'm not too sure what the local volunteers would have to do that they don't already and it would likely be possible for the manufacturers to throw in a sponsorship for the program.

Also if it generates a sizable amount of new memberships I would almost say the PDGA should also have a little invested into the program. The PDGA already gives out money for other programs and this would really just come down to helping the Touring guys out and in return they would somewhat be "free labor" for the Org by spending 3-4 days a week promoting the sport.

Even if this only brought in 5 memberships a week that is 250 members we didn't have and while on the road the sport was hopefully exposed thousands of people of which some may even take up the sport and become members in the future.

I would think it would be up to the local promoter and staff to arrange the demos, event visits and so on. Make the calls and make the contacts, set up the events, coordinate logistics, contact and arrange with education, parks and other official type folks. Set up the venues in the parks, make sure facilites (bathrooms, refreshments, etc.) are provided and so on. Let alone help with providing alternatives for the 'cheap living' arrangements.

20 guys just can't show up in a shopping mall unannounced and expect to throw a demo. It all has to be arranged and coordinated on the back end. And if it is, can you expect that the people pulling the load are doing it without compensation?

I nominate Felberg to be in charge of everything!

Couldn't that be handled by our marketing guy the PDGA pays?

I would assume that this person already has duties. Also, there is no way one person can do this all for the number of cities that would have to be involved during the 6 to 8 month period. Heck, one person can't do it all for a single event.

Then why are we paying 1 person to be the sole seeker of sponsorships and marketing?

The fact is that 99% of the guys who "tour" do it because they love the game and if they were given the chance to have a more viable tour they would do anything they could to help the PDGA make it a worthwhile venture but instead most think that Pros are just in it for the money and couldn't care less about helping the sport.

Like the 1st post said, this may not work that well the 1st year but over time the benefit will likely outweigh the cost. Also I could see some other entity consulting the manufacturers with this same proposition but using the incentive that they would create not only more players which would purchase discs but hopefully such a program could do even more to expose our sport which would produce more players then those 10-20 could ever do by just meeting face to face.

If someone got this type of thing going there may be a TGDA
Touring Players Disc Association that is at 1st supported by DG businesses with the goal to Produce a key set of 10 or so events a year as a tour as well as having golfer go out and try to gain exposure while on the road.

It sounds great, but I think you greatly underestimate how much work it would be to pull this off. Not just on the 'tour' coordinators themselves, but on each and every tour stop staff as well. I also think you may be overestimating the capacity for people to continue to work for nothing so 20 people or so make a living off of this free work. At some point, those carrying the load are going to demand compensation for their efforts. There is no sustainable pro sport out there that doesn't pay its promoters, owners, staff and so on. If the business of it is going to be successful, it has to be worthwhile to do the business for all parties involved, not just the 20 players and possibly the equipment manufacturers.

Find a way that the people being asked to donate resources (time, expertise, financial) can realize a return on investment and you'll find a pro tour.

... so now all I need is an obscenely rich person who likes disc golf, and the bus is on the road... any bidders?

Haha. Realistically, this is not going to happen tomorrow. I agree that the funds aren't there yet. But on a smaller scale, this is still something that should be happening right now today.

Here: for argument's sake (and to appease the budget for a second), scrap the bus. No paid living expenses for the touring pros... (yet)... but let's say that the PDGA and the manufacturers set up a joint venture like this: they find the funds necessary to cover any additional expenses for a group of select pros who would show up at every Major event (that they were already planning on attending) 3 days early. Suppose this group of players goes on with the promotional program I suggested, visiting malls, events, schools, etc. as coordinated by a *paid* PDGA staff members for the two days with the manufacturers and PDGA covering meals and lodging. After the event they return home. Even though they weren't paid necessarily, the trip didn't cost them anything more than it would've cost just to play the major. I guarantee you that you could find 7 guys on tour that would be up for that.

Now the whole thing grows expodentially.
Year 1- No Tour, 7 guys hit every Major 3 days early, cover some of the expenses by selling plastic and PDGA memberships. And give out those free spectator tickets!
Year 2- If year one fails totally, fine, scrap it. BUT I bet it shows some promise, so year 2 you increase the program to 10 guys, and you cover the costs for their early arrival at every NT.
Year 3- Identify these 10 guys as PROmotional reps of the PDGA and their sponsoring manufacturers. Offer a grant system where they can run this program at any town they happen to converge upon for a tournament... NTs, Major, US Doubles, A tiers, you name it...
Year 4 - start throwing them travel money, and continue upping the program size...
* * *
Year 10- We finally get that tour bus, and these 10 guys have a ticket to ride. If the PDGA can't afford it, I will have been out of college for six years or so by then, and I'm planning on being rich soooo... haha.

But in all seriousness, if even this is to big, start smaller. Do a Texas promotional series. Do a California promotional series. I realize the finances aren't there yet. But I stand by this concept, and I really do believe it would reap long term financial benefits for all parties. Use the traveling pros to take disc golf outside its current population and deliver it to both the youth and the potential casual players of the world. And then find some way to reward them based on their success as promoters. It'll snowball.

This already happened with Jay, Des, Feldberg and few other pros doing clinics, usually on Thursdays, just before NTs and some other events this past year. No one attending was paying to participate but I think the pros did get some financial help from the PDGA. Not sure what their evaluation of the program indicated.

Ethan you're really trying here, and I appreciate that. It seems like there are many ideas being thrown around and the response to all of them is "eh, it might not work so lets not even try." or "there's no money, the paid pdga staff already has stuff to do, yada yada."

It's nice to see someone taking action, or at least talking passionately. I sincerely hope you keep thinking it through, and presenting ideas until the pdga actually does something. After all, isn't that what these forums are for?

Growing a sport is like growing cherry trees, and the pro tour is the fruit of healthy growth. Because I was basically greedy for fruit, I let my baby sour cherry trees make fruit, and because of it their growth is stunted. And because of that, they don't produce much fruit.

All of my sweet cherry trees died of the blight except one. So, without a partner, it cannot make fruit, and it has grown big.

We have this baby sport, [in terms of how long it has been around, nothing derogatory here] where the top 200 pros took in about $1 million this year, combined, in tournament winnings. That's an average of 5 grand each. Yee-haw. What does the sport gain in growth by tossing an average of $5000 each to 200 players? Nothing I can see. 10 or 12 guys don't have to work for a living, except to be that good, most of them probably have to work ten times harder than me everyday. So ten or twelve guys get to work their butts off to barely make a living and a couple hundred guys in the middle have a hobby that breaks even.

That $1 million dollars could put nine lightweight portable baskets and thirty discs in 1200 public middle and high schools. The average public middle or high school has 675 pupils. ( http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/overview/table05.asp ). If we weren't throwing fruitless money at the pros, and instead were throwing it at the public schools, 800,000 kids could have played disc golf in their p.e. or after school latch key program this year. If we had been doing this for the last seven years [during which time the cash spent on the pro tour has doubled] We would have 4 million more people exposed to the game than we have right now. Do that for another seven years projecting the same growth and we have 12 million people who've been taught the rules and have played the game in school.

When I think about the games I'll watch for a bit on TV, it is pretty much all the games I played and enjoyed in school, (and the ones where it looks like someone might die or be maimed any minute.) The game I most enjoy watching is the one I played at an organized competitive level four or five years.

Edge is great but it is not reaching 1200 schools a year. And how many schools look at the $1500 Edge program at the annual p.e. conferences and think, well, for $100 they can be playing Dodge Ball and we don't have $1500.

Concoct all the pie-in-the-sky schemes you want. if we really wanted to grow this sport so it could support a pro tour we'd abolish MPO and introduce MA0 in its place.

This year I'm pinching off all the cherry blossoms. If a couple of years of that does not jump start these trees growing branches and leaves, maybe I'll have to cut them down.

This already happened with Jay, Des, Feldberg and few other pros doing clinics, usually on Thursdays, just before NTs and some other events this past year. No one attending was paying to participate but I think the pros did get some financial help from the PDGA. Not sure what their evaluation of the program indicated.





Yeah but all they are doing is teaching Int type players different shots and they aren't reaching out and finding new players.

The point is the process being proposed is already underway and in theory could be pumped up. The thing is, locals have been involved in getting people to the clinics. A major effort has been done by a local retailer promoting the clinics at courses, leagues and even a few radio spots prior to the Majestic. But the attendees were still mostly registered players, few new, and the clinic was free.

Growing a sport is like growing cherry trees, and the pro tour is the fruit of healthy growth. Because I was basically greedy for fruit, I let my baby sour cherry trees make fruit, and because of it their growth is stunted. And because of that, they don't produce much fruit.

All of my sweet cherry trees died of the blight except one. So, without a partner, it cannot make fruit, and it has grown big.

We have this baby sport, [in terms of how long it has been around, nothing derogatory here] where the top 200 pros took in about $1 million this year, combined, in tournament winnings. That's an average of 5 grand each. Yee-haw. What does the sport gain in growth by tossing an average of $5000 each to 200 players? Nothing I can see. 10 or 12 guys don't have to work for a living, except to be that good, most of them probably have to work ten times harder than me everyday. So ten or twelve guys get to work their butts off to barely make a living and a couple hundred guys in the middle have a hobby that breaks even.

That $1 million dollars could put nine lightweight portable baskets and thirty discs in 1200 public middle and high schools. The average public middle or high school has 675 pupils. ( http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/overview/table05.asp ). If we weren't throwing fruitless money at the pros, and instead were throwing it at the public schools, 800,000 kids could have played disc golf in their p.e. or after school latch key program this year. If we had been doing this for the last seven years [during which time the cash spent on the pro tour has doubled] We would have 4 million more people exposed to the game than we have right now. Do that for another seven years projecting the same growth and we have 12 million people who've been taught the rules and have played the game in school.

When I think about the games I'll watch for a bit on TV, it is pretty much all the games I played and enjoyed in school, (and the ones where it looks like someone might die or be maimed any minute.) The game I most enjoy watching is the one I played at an organized competitive level four or five years.

Edge is great but it is not reaching 1200 schools a year. And how many schools look at the $1500 Edge program at the annual p.e. conferences and think, well, for $100 they can be playing Dodge Ball and we don't have $1500.

Concoct all the pie-in-the-sky schemes you want. if we really wanted to grow this sport so it could support a pro tour we'd abolish MPO and introduce MA0 in its place.

This year I'm pinching off all the cherry blossoms. If a couple of years of that does not jump start these trees growing branches and leaves, maybe I'll have to cut them down.




That would likely have great effect Bruce but the PDGA has been going along trying to appease all parties and I don't really think there has been a large scale effort to organize a schedule that makes a "tour" out of the large events and instead we just have events scattered all over the map. There also has been no large scale measure to introduce the sport to younger players and I know there was a course right across from my elementary and I had no clue what it was.

If you set up a basket in a place with a lot of younger kids they will become interested and if we were able to allow a few of our better Pros to attend such a place before each NT there is a chance that quite a few of the kids might come and check it out and since the cost may outweigh the perceived benefit to a school this may be a viable alternative and a good way to expose ourselves to youngsters. :D

Edge is great but it is not reaching 1200 schools a year. And how many schools look at the $1500 Edge program at the annual p.e. conferences and think, well, for $100 they can be playing Dodge Ball and we don't have $1500.



FYI - Schools and youth programs that are first time purchasers of EDGE materials can get the Basic package for only $499.99. Most schools and/or districts don't generally need approval from a board to make this purchase. It includes, curriculum for all ages, targets, discs, minis, and instructional DVD.

More info here: http://www.edgediscgolf.org/

I guess I'll jump in for comment since I have been addressing several of these issues over the last few years.

Suzette is correct in that for as little $499.95 including shipping can get a school or any youth program close to $1200 retail in equipment and programming for at least 30 participants.

Bruce has some good points and we have a program set up for tournaments to help out their own areas for EDGE programming that raised $12,000 with just 55 tournaments participating. That was only in its first year. :D
EDGE Tournament Charity Program (http://www.edgediscgolf.org/files/EDGE_Tournament_Charity_Info.pdf)

I also created a touring clinic and marketing program last year that had many new players attend in various cities prior to NT events. We had 22 unique pro clinic instructors and averaged 60 attendees. We created spectator tickets that acted like mini flyers for non-tournament folks that became eligible to win a basket and other disc goods from Innova Champion for coming out to the finals. We averaged 130 non-playing spectators with Minnesota having a gallery close to 500 of which almost 300 tickets were turned in. Obviously, these numbers are small as we are finally just attempting to capture spectators. As Chuck likes to point out, these numbers aren't worth much outside sponsorship, but it is a start that should be built upon.

Good thoughts Ethan, many of us are out there trying.

The Yeti and other clinics have been done very well having been to a few. It's just a matter of getting a bigger draw with efforts by the local promoters in advance to get out the word.

I admire your efforts.

That's some really good stuff. I don't think I could say enough about what a positive impact I think the EDGE is both for the individual participating schools and for the sport. I didn't know about your marketing program, but it sounds like you have already tried a couple of the things I have in mind. Out of curiosity, where were the clinics at? The courses I assume?

The course clinic programs seem like a really good way to pull casual golfers into the PDGA and competitive golf, and also a good way to elevate the game by increasing the skills and knowledge of less experienced players (not to mention that they generate excitement for the sport). Its probably easier to find potential spectators at these events, because these are people already interested in disc golf.

However, equally important and far less explored (in my opinion) is the idea of taking disc golf TO people. EDGE is one great way to do that, but there are other ways too.

I've been around disc golf since I could walk, so I'm mostly speaking in theory, but I get the impression from friends that a disc golf course is kind of an intimidating thing to people that aren't familiar with the sport. Part of it is a psychological barrier. I mean... be honest, there are a lot of unfortunate stereotypes associated with this sport... not to mention people are naturally uncomfortable with things they've never done. As a result, I don't think AT THE COURSE programs are ever going to serve as a successful outreach to people who have never played the sport. If you are going to significantly grow the recreational base of players, the very bottom rung so to speak, I think in the end we are going to have to GO TO THEM.

In metaphorical terms: I find skating entertaining, I watch the X-games every year, etc. However, I can only think of one personal friend who skateboards. Additionally there are lots stereotypes that are associated with skating. Vandalism is among the worst associated ideas (I don't think skateboarders destroy property by definition, that's ridiculous... but people equate disc golf with pot all the time too...). Plus, I've never visited the local skate park before. The point is, I don't have anything on which I could establish a sense of comfort with skating, so if I get an email invitation to attend a free demo tomorrow, I'm probably not going. BUT, suppose instead I was at school, or at a basketball game downtown, or walking through a mall... something I'm already comfortable with. And in that location, a skateboard demo is going on... NOW I have a comfortable venue, even though skateboarding is a new thing for me. I guarantee you I will stop to watch for a second, and if somebody offers I may even hop on that board and give it a try. Who knows, maybe I'll like it. Someone will.

The Pros have a unique opportunity in this sort of public promotional setting. Even though it is a slightly diluted term in this sport, "Professional Disc Golfer" sounds legitimate even to Average Joe walking through the mall. So whether you're a multi-world-champ with a PDGA number under 5000, or a 980 golfer that finally hit the cash in his last C-Tier, you have a title that can get you in the door, so to speak, with someone who has never encountered disc golf. I'm still searching for ways to make this profitable for all involved, but seriously, to every open player out there: if you introduced at least 50 people a year to disc golf through some sort of promotion, lessons, inviting your friends, helping with edge, i bet you would see your lifetime earnings significantly increase too.

And to the ams, many of which serve as the volunteers that backbone this organization, there is no reason you can't be doing it too.

1st Ill start by saying what your suggesting would be fantastic. Heck if there was a logical NT that in and of itself would be incredible. No more flying in 2 the west coast for 2 weeks then back home then out to the East coast for a week. Then down south for a week then back to the west coast for 2 weeks then god knows where there rest of the summer. This would help increase attendance at the NT event which would in turn give you more people to PROmote the sport prior to the event. To go one step farther I think that there should be an entire NT series that is made up of 4-5 minis tours. 3 tournaments per mini tour in the same area of the country. After you complete the 3 you more to the next area of the country and have 3 more. Worlds thrown somewhere in the middle and USDGC and Players Cup at the end. This also allows more TIME for the promotion to go on. Being there for 3 weeks instead of a weekend makes it much easier to organize Demos and Clinics and Showcases. Also allows for different people to show up to the different mini tours. You could have 10 guys for the 1st mini 10. 10 other guys for the 2nd mini tour and so on and so forth. During the week these guys hang out at the local courses. Play in the local leagues. They inform people that there is a world of disc golf outside the drunken round they play with their buddies. Thats the way to get more people to the PDGA and out to the NTs. Pros at courses telling people who otherwise have no clue that there is a tournament coming up if they were interested in spectating. I think that in and of itself would bring huge crowds of people out to watch.

Now for the hard part.
1. Finding 10 guys who can get along for that length of time traveling together.
2. What would we really do if all of the sudden 500-1000 people showed up to watch a NT event? Where would they all park? Where would they all stand? Where would all the players park? How would we accomadate such a large gallery?
3. If that many people showed up and we coudlnt handle it, then what happens to the sport?
4. How do you only pick ten if 40 decide they want to do it?
5. Money. I know its been said but all this cost money and to do it correctly would cost a significant amount of money.

So I think its an amazing Idea and something I would love to see happen but if we cant even get a logical NT put together by the PDGA then how are we going to pull this off?

All in all it would be amazing to have this happen, but at this point in time I just dont think we are ready.

1st Ill start by saying what your suggesting would be fantastic. Heck if there was a logical NT that in and of itself would be incredible...



There have been numerous message board debates on trying to turn the National Tour into a true tour. I think, if I understand it correctly, the problem is that many of the NT tournaments existed long before the National Tour itself, and these tournaments are reluctant to surrender their annual weekend for one better suited to the national schedule. Besides, especially in the the cooler climates, there is something of a scramble among the NTs and A tiers with the large radius of exclusivity to hold the "good weather" weekends. I'm not sure this is a good place to re-stage that debate... but I will tell you what I think the solution will eventually be: the PDGA cannot simply descend from the heavens and wrestle these TDs, some of them among our sport's very best volunteers, into making this change. I think it is far more likely that this change will come from a sort of committee of NT TDs, who I would expect to become more formally organized in the coming years. On the other hand, it might also be interesting to see such a concept tested on the next PDGA ballot... if there was say 85+% approval for a more sensible tour route, the PDGA might be able to use that as a mandate for across the board changes.



1. Finding 10 guys who can get along for that length of time traveling together.




Travel or not, I'd say its probably the second most difficult and essential part (next to funding) of the whole scheme to get the right people. But I think they're out there.



2. What would we really do if all of the sudden 500-1000 people showed up to watch a NT event? Where would they all park? Where would they all stand? Where would all the players park? How would we accomadate such a large gallery?
3. If that many people showed up and we couldn't handle it, then what happens to the sport?




This made me chuckle. It is an interesting image, the idea of 1000 spectators crashing an unsuspecting NT event. But first of all, I don't think its going to happen in such a manner... any change will be slow in coming, and the TDs will adjust. Secondly, even though I don't have all the answers, I'm sure TDs would stand in line for a chance to solve this "problem." I bet if you tell Harold Duvall there will be 5000 spectators at the USDGC next fall, he'll go straight to work on the "problem." Haha.


4. How do you only pick ten if 40 decide they want to do it?




You guys wanna see more capitalism in this plan? Well here it is: if Innova wants to pipe up $10,000, then by all means they can pick who goes and who doesn't. Same to any other sponsor, whether its Gateway and Discraft, Revolution, or a medicated foot cream company. If a couple of companies split it, give them spots according to their percent contributions.

On the other hand, if the PDGA runs the thing, I'd say you do an application process. I'm in the middle of applying to college right now... why not ask for a resume and a nice personal statement? (we could skip the SAT scores)



5. Money. I know its been said but all this cost money and to do it correctly would cost a significant amount of money.




I know. That's truly the hurdle, isn't it? The best I have thought of so far is just to start small, and do what we can...


All in all it would be amazing to have this happen, but at this point in time I just dont think we are ready.



This is the only thing you said that I dispute. We ARE ready. Sure the money isn't there yet, and the tour totally straightened out yet. But I think at our best... at the USDGC... at Worlds... we are beginning to demonstrate that we are ready for this sport to be REAL... mainstream if you prefer that term... legitimate if you prefer... The passion and dedication are present in this organization to a degree where this sort of pipe dream starts to look feasible from the right angle, and that by itself shows how close we are. Piece by piece, we can get there. But we are perfectly capable of the first baby steps right now.

Admittedly I am completely ignorant to the inner workings of the PDGA. But it seems like the only connection between these forums and the BOD is Chuck. So....

Does the board ever look at the forum? Are the subjects discussed brought up at the meetings somehow? Is there someway this particular thread could be printed out at some point, and given to the BOD?

The PDGA Staff does monitor this D-Board and I know all of the Board members at least pop in to look at topics of interest. From a practical standpoint, the committee members are the ones who can make a difference with regard to new ideas moving forward and several post here regularly.

For example, regular posters Yeti, Gary Duke, Discette, McCoy and myself are all members of the Competition Committee. Chappy and Harold are the only two members of the Rules Committee that post and Harold's posts are mostly on tournament info like USDGC. I'm the only one in the Tech Standards group who posts but Stork and Homburg follow certain threads, especially when I direct them there. The Course Committee guys (Houck, DrDisc aka Monroe) follow some threads but I'm the primary poster. So, yes, much of what's posted does get seen by several who are in position to take some action.

There have been numerous message board debates on trying to turn the National Tour into a true tour. I think, if I understand it correctly, the problem is that many of the NT tournaments existed long before the National Tour itself, and these tournaments are reluctant to surrender their annual weekend for one better suited to the national schedule. Besides, especially in the the cooler climates, there is something of a scramble among the NTs and A tiers with the large radius of exclusivity to hold the "good weather" weekends. I'm not sure this is a good place to re-stage that debate... but I will tell you what I think the solution will eventually be: the PDGA cannot simply descend from the heavens and wrestle these TDs, some of them among our sport's very best volunteers, into making this change. I think it is far more likely that this change will come from a sort of committee of NT TDs, who I would expect to become more formally organized in the coming years. On the other hand, it might also be interesting to see such a concept tested on the next PDGA ballot... if there was say 85+% approval for a more sensible tour route, the PDGA might be able to use that as a mandate for across the board changes.



This I understand but for the good of the NT and the good of the sport dont you think the TDs would be willing to give it a try? I mean thats why they run tournaments right? Plus it could flow with the weather. From the southwest all the way across to the northeast. The NT could follow the good weather. I think its a great idea to put it to a vote and see what happens but who knows if that will fly?


This made me chuckle. It is an interesting image, the idea of 1000 spectators crashing an unsuspecting NT event. But first of all, I don't think its going to happen in such a manner... any change will be slow in coming, and the TDs will adjust. Secondly, even though I don't have all the answers, I'm sure TDs would stand in line for a chance to solve this "problem." I bet if you tell Harold Duvall there will be 5000 spectators at the USDGC next fall, he'll go straight to work on the "problem." Haha.



You bring up the USDGC which next to Players Cup is the only place that wouldnt have a problem with that many spectators. There is plenty of parking. The courses are wide open enough for spectators. But try going to Warwick NY and having even 500 let alone 5000 spectators. Or Hornets Nest in Charlotte NC. Or Cass Benton in MI. Or Fountain Hills in AZ. Those courses are just not set up for massive amounts of people. Some of the courses might handle it but where would all these people park? I understand its not a bad problem to have but it is a problem and without completely moving venues and designing new courses in places that can handle that kind of crowd we simply can not handle it anywhere but where the Majors are being held.


This is the only thing you said that I dispute. We ARE ready. Sure the money isn't there yet, and the tour totally straightened out yet. But I think at our best... at the USDGC... at Worlds... we are beginning to demonstrate that we are ready for this sport to be REAL... mainstream if you prefer that term... legitimate if you prefer... The passion and dedication are present in this organization to a degree where this sort of pipe dream starts to look feasible from the right angle, and that by itself shows how close we are. Piece by piece, we can get there. But we are perfectly capable of the first baby steps right now.



I know at our BEST we can be taken seriously and we look great and people love to watch but that is a few tournaments out of hundreds that are run every single year. And those are our major events. I think some of our NTs are worthy as well but we need 10-15 events like the USDGC every year to be taken seriously not just 1.

If all the NTs were like USDGC and then we had the USDGC which was 10 times better than all of those we would be ready but as it stands we have 15 pretty darn good NTs with the USDGC being 10 times as good as those and thats just not enough.

I know alot of the people inside the sport that ARE ready. I know im ready. I know alot of my friends are ready. I know alot of the top guys like Jenkins and Feldberg and Val Jenkins and Des Reading and Climo and Doss and Eric McCabe and Nikko and McBeth and whoever else I forgot to mention ARE ready but that does not mean the courses we play on, or the people who run our tournaments ARE ready. All it means is there are alot of people out there who think and say we ARE ready when it just may not be true. You need big big outside sponsors (IE Coke, Pepsi, Red Bull, Gatorade, Monster, Nike, Addidas) to do what your proposing and at this point in time there is no real reason for them to dump that kind of money into our sport whether we ARE ready or not.

To clarify, I 100% agree with you on the necessity of reforming the calendar. It SHOULD follow good weather, and it SHOULD follow a logical path... absolutely. I think the idea needs more momentum before you are going to see it implemented though... the organizers (understandably) find it easier to do the same thing every year. It is up to the membership to push the envelope... maybe through the ballot... maybe through other means. I'm not sure. It will happen eventually. How soon is up to the organization as a whole.

Clearly we disagree on what ready means. No problem. I would not dispute that the vast majority of NTs would not survive a huge number of spectators... many of the current NT courses never will handle that many people, no matter what you do. But the redesign of this organization and its events in order to accommodate spectators will only begin after a serious need is demonstrated. If you were a course designer, you'd have no reason to leave space for spectators until someone demonstrates that there will someday be such spectators.

Anyhow, I think there are a select few events that are ready now, and a couple more that could eventually handle it. That's what I meant when I said we are ready for the first baby steps. Not 14 televised installments of the Pepsi National Tour with 5K+ spectators. I agree. But I think we are ready for an annually live webcasted USDGC and World Championship (or the Players Cup if its a better fit, I am not very knowledgeable about that event). I think we have the capacity to generate 2,000-4,000 spectators for each of these through promotions right now. Once we can try this out at some of our best events, I think we will have a better handle on how we can adjust the rest of the NT and begin the process of redesigning this sport to accommodate further expansion.

We in this sport have a tendency to get a step ahead of ourselves. I was VERY guilty of that when I started this thread. But I have learned a ton already from the feedback, and I'm extremely glad I put my ideas out here. It seems that every time someone posts I realize I was being too ambitious about the first step in my plan, but I still believe the ultimate goal, essentially as stated in my first couple of posts, is a viable future. I keep scaling back the first step, and I suppose in this post I have again done so... but the critical point is (and remains) this:

a "demographic," so to speak, is being ignored in the promotional efforts of the competitive disc golf community (namely the potential recreational golfers, who will never step foot on a disc golf course unless we go to them). I believe therein lies the next step in our organization's future, especially if the "Pepsi National Tour" is ever going to happen.

To go one step farther I think that there should be an entire NT series that is made up of 4-5 minis tours. 3 tournaments per mini tour in the same area of the country. After you complete the 3 you more to the next area of the country and have 3 more.



The regional tour is a good idea for those players that are on the road and can play every single weekend. However, it means local events that would normally fill when held several weeks apart may not be successful because the local player base cannot support back to back to back events. TD's and clubs that could normally sell all their custom discs and other merchandise are left holding inventory when the pros leave town.

As I recall, a few years ago they did several back to back events in the Northeast. I believe they hosted an NT, and then a couple of A-Tiers moved to create a "mini tour". Events that were successful and had sold out in previous years did not fill. The locals that made up the bulk of tournament players did not/could not attend all three events. The lower rated local pros couldn't "afford" to go to all three events with little prospect of cashing against the top touring players. All of the events suffered as a result of trying to cater to a handful of touring players.

The back to back to back regional tour idea only works if there is lots of extra money. As long as the touring pros are still playing for other player's money, the regional tour idea is just a dream.

To go one step farther I think that there should be an entire NT series that is made up of 4-5 minis tours. 3 tournaments per mini tour in the same area of the country. After you complete the 3 you more to the next area of the country and have 3 more.



The regional tour is a good idea for those players that are on the road and can play every single weekend. However, it means local events that would normally fill when held several weeks apart may not be successful because the local player base cannot support back to back to back events. TD's and clubs that could normally sell all their custom discs and other merchandise are left holding inventory when the pros leave town.

As I recall, a few years ago they did several back to back events in the Northeast. I believe they hosted an NT, and then a couple of A-Tiers moved to create a "mini tour". Events that were successful and had sold out in previous years did not fill. The locals that made up the bulk of tournament players did not/could not attend all three events. The lower rated local pros couldn't "afford" to go to all three events with little prospect of cashing against the top touring players. All of the events suffered as a result of trying to cater to a handful of touring players.

The back to back to back regional tour idea only works if there is lots of extra money. As long as the touring pros are still playing for other player's money, the regional tour idea is just a dream.



I agree it wont work without tons of added money. I would not suggest doing it untill there was tons of added money. But we were talking about what would and could be great for the sport. I dont think we are READY for any of this except a logical NT.

Yeah it would be nice if players represented by different companies were actually working together as a group to promote the game,,, The tour,,, and The pdga.

We've had 30 years of working against each other,,, lets try something different.
It great to have a rival and nothing wrong with having a favorite company, but its really gotten out of hand in some areas. Its really time for a change in disc golf and the animosity among the players and separation based on what discs you throw hasn't been so good from an outsiders perspective.
( http://www.flyingdiscmagazine.com/node/157)

Being a hardcore traveling player (25 plus events a year) back in mid to the late 80's and closely involved with others touring ever since,,, I think having more than a handful of players all in one vehicle is asking A LOT!!
Most pros have very different routines of eating, sleeping, practicing,,,etc.
Unless they are getting paid like its a job and not relying so much on how much they win, then again,, I think we are asking a lot.
I like the idea and think it's great and will happen at some point and there's no reason, some manufactures, the PDGA or the "tour itself" shouldn't pony up the $$$ to make it happen.
If and when it does happen,,, I'd say shoot for 4 or 5 of the games biggest stars who could work together on this a promotional tour.
It would help immensely if there was a geographical and chronological tour in place of the biggest and richest events. (see shaping the pro tour for tomorrow article I wrote back in 1993 for disc golf journal) http://www.gdstour.com/pro_disc_golf_tour.php

Tony Hawk was a relative unknown outside of the Skate world and turned into an overnight success.
I'm not exactly sure what sparked his emergence ( maybe we should find out), but I'm thinking Television and videos had a lot to do with it and then he followed his 15 minutes of fame up with a non competitive tour that sold out HUGE arenas all over this country.
I'm positive our sport will have a Tony Hawk BOOM BOOM Jam type of tour or distance displays and clinics that will take the exposure to the next level.
The thing is it takes a lot to capture any excitement during rounds for others to watch that are not "into the sport".
Stunts with Danger is a whole other ballgame than serious shot by shot competition and takes several cameras and some excellent producing for it to be compelling enough for an outsider.
I'm not saying it's not cool or wouldn't be entertaining, just quite a bit more expensive to capture than board and bike sports or even sand volleyball. ( Plus there's hot chicks in the crowd shown on camera when sand volley ball is aired)


We can certainly learn form the success of other "like industries" and develop a formula for marketing and promoting that would work for exposing the world to disc golf.
There are some big differences in Snow boarding Skateboarding, bmx,, etc.
I'm always amazed at how most Skate boarders can Skate for Years and years and never enter an event. They still spend gobs of their parents ( and their own) disposable incomes on clothes and equipment and the facts are, 99.9% of of all skateboarders never compete and never will. This is one of the big difference in the sports and could also be part of the solution. Skate boarding is a culture,, a way of life.
all you have to have is a funky haircut, tight or baggy pants, skate shoes and a shirt,,, and it doesn't really matter if you can skate or not,,, youre usually excepted into the group and your lack of skills are rarely exposed as there are basically no competitions or judging.
WOW no one competes and it's 100 times larger than disc golf,,, how could that be??


It's as if disc golf is always putting the cart before the horse. Trying to make a pro Tour before there are even enough AM players competing. Every time an AM gets good he is called a sand-bagger and forced to move up or be ridiculed. ( the where are they now list is huge)
This has been one of the biggest negative aspects of developing our sport ( well that and lack of information at the courses). LET an AM be an AM if thats what he wants,,, as long as he keeps playing,,, thats is all that matters.

Ooops,,, drifting,,, thinking about the super bowl too,,,back on point!!!

We really need a lot more ams playing am events and even more players JUST playing recreational to pool from than we have now.
I know the sport is growing rapidly, but there are VAST amounts of people who have no idea what disc golf is or where its played. On top of that most of the recreational players that are playing really don't know about the Local Clubs, PDGA and how to join either.
In some places if you want to check out the NEWEST disc you have to know someone, who knows someone, just to get your hands on the disc in person.
In St Louis we have 26 courses and 53 stores that sell discs and and they feed each other. In other cities there are 4 courses and only 1 place to buy discs and sometimes there aren't even tee signs or scorecards.
Even at our 26 area courses there is little or no information about the PDGA and only 1/4 of the courses have information on our club and club events.

We really need to focus on our product and making it better,, by product I mean,,,,,The disc golf courses!!!!

My guess is 1 million people played at least 1 round of disc golf last year or on average a little over 400 per course.
Now a million people seems like a lot of players to me!
The MAJOR organization that governs the sport has 12,000 members,, or 1 out of 83 players.
This number seems good, but its just not enough!
2 things can happen,,,,, either we can get a whole lot more people playing or a whole lot more players joining the pdga.
My suggestion is both, focusing first on the players that are already playing as we have a way to market directly to EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM.
The place to market the PDGA and the Sport is at each and every disc golf course.
I think (and have suggested to pdga board memebrs) that the pdga put up a sign at each AND EVERY COURSE with a box for promotional handouts and each one of the 2400 plus courses. The sign could have information about our association and HOW PLAYERS can join and help grow the sport.
The pdga could help qualify a COURSE PRO for each course that can work directly with the PDGA and PARK to get the information to the public.

I also suggest a lower fee for NON competitive members that want to be a part of our Association,, like maybe $20.00

If we could get 10 times more PDGA members or 120,000 members at $20 each, I think we will find the $$$ for a lot of projects to make our sport better.


ok,,, enough for now,, before I start rambling,,,.

Marketing and promoting at the courses,, I tell you,, at the courses!!!

so you're angle is more like a street team. Like developing bands and record labels have. Local volunteers from anywhere, can sign up to receive promotional materials (at the very least flyers), and go spread the word in their own town. that's another example to borrow from. I'm pretty sure that's something the extreme sports use to.

Good thoughts. A lot of courses already have kiosks (and many many still need them). If one person from every course could be the contact between the pdga and that kiosk, it would be very simple to spread basic info, and maybe even more current pdga news.