803.04 Stance, Subsequent to
Teeing Off
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that
is in contact with the playing surface on
the line of play and within 30 centimeters
directly behind the marker disc (except as
specifi ed in 803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the
marker disc or any object closer to the hole
than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,the rule for a putt;803.04�803.05
"(3) have all of his or her supporting points
in-bounds.
B. Stepping past the marker disc is
permitted after the disc is released, except
when putting within 10 meters.
C. Any throw from within 10 meters or
less, as measured from the rear of the
marker disc to the base of the hole, is
considered a putt. A follow-through after
a putt that causes the thrower to make
any supporting point contact closer to
the hole than the rear edge of the marker
disc constitutes a falling putt and is
considered a stance violation . The player
must demonstrate full control of balance
before advancing toward the hole."

The jump putt has been questionable for years and it is still up for discussion. I have seen many questionable "jump putts" by many players and pro players that are in the top 20. So Im bring it up for discussion so that we might get a good idea as to what players think it should be to make it a legal putt. Please ring in. :cool:

Odd, most of the previous controversy concerned 803.05.A 1&2 which you have not edited to include.

i couldnt find any thing that hit directly with the jump putt. Thanks! so is there another discusion about this?

You didn't really look.

http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/show...part=1&vc=1 (http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=844185&page=0&fpart=1&vc =1)

http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/show...part=1&vc=1 (http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=733565&page=0&fpart=1&vc =1)

http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/show...part=1&vc=1 (http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=518224&page=0&fpart=1&vc =1)

:D

All it took was a search of the word "jump" in the Rules section of the message board and these were the first three threads to come up.

Also, the apostrophe police have a warrant for your arrest. I'd stay out of libraries for a few days. :D

rules seem simple enough to me... let go of the disc before your feet leave the ground.

The rule is simple - calling it apparently is less so.

There is one particular top player (for now shall remain unnamed) that I have warned for their jump putt - telling him I could see he had left the ground from a long way away. His response was "you can't make that call - it's too close to call"
To which my response was that I would make the call if I saw it during the round (I had actually been trying to do him a favor, as I saw him doing it in practice before the round)

Well since then, I've even had the opportunity to watch his jump putt on slow mo video - where my suspicions were confirmed. His feet had left the ground before releasing the disc.

So...........................if you think someone left the ground before releasing - CALL IT!!! Your eyes are not lying to you. They are deceiving themselves into thinking they can't release the disc effectively with their feet off the ground. They are also banking on you NOT making the call.

Feldberg told me this summer at our A-tier that he had changed his style to make it legal. It looked like he had. I've seen some other pros change their style to conform to the rules also.

There are two problems that make enforcement tough.

One, it is a stance violation and requires an immediate call and second.

Two, Many players mis-apply the beginning of 803.01.D(1)

D. Appeals:
(1) When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of the doubt
shall be given to the thrower.


This rule is part of the appeals process and should only be applied after the card fails to reach a decision, not while considering the offense.

would it be easier or better to le them leave the ground and check that the release is before landing?

would it be easier or better to forget this rule altogether?

I am trying to get in touch with Chris Himming of australia
If anyone has info on how to contact him please email me
[email protected] This is important 4 me to contact him.
Thanks
Uncle Bob

A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that
is in contact with the playing surface on
the line of play and within 30 centimeters
directly behind the marker disc (except as
specifi ed in 803.04 E);



I thing the idea that is missed is supporting point. The tip of your shoe is not a supporting point during a jump putt. I think jump putts are an accepted illegal action. I've tried calling them and never got any...support. :)

The tip of your shoe may not be actively supporting your full body weight, but that is not a requirement of the rule.

Do you apply the same argument to a finger or toe placed behind the marker disc on a stretched out stance?

The player's body weight is clearly not on the supporting point used to satisfy the stance rule, but it is a legal stance as long as some body part is in contact with the playing surface within 30cm on LOP behind the marker disc (or immediately behind a large obstacle...).

It says supporting point. That does not mean it must bear all your weight. You can have many supporting points.
But by the rules you cannot have no supporting points.
The tip of your shoe is not supporting any weight since you are propelling your weight forward.

I see your point and from a physical sciences point of view it is accurate. I don't think the PDGA will go along with it in the application of the stance rules because that would also invalidate the two instances I mentioned.

You contend that if the contact point is not bearing any weight it is not a support point. If that interpretation is accepted to prove that there are no supporting points, it must also be used to show that contact points that do not bear significant weight are also not support points. Then fingers and toes that are do not carry weight cannot be used as supporting points for satisfying the stance rules.

It seems that for the purpose of interpreting the rule, any contact point must be considered a supporting point.

I understand this is a moot point as there is no interest from the PDGA in stopping jump putts. Likely we will see a rewrite of the rules to specificly allow them.

But fingers and toes can support some weight. It need not be a significant ammount to qualify as a supporting point. So they are valid.

Haven't entered these discussions in awhile. Glad to see people are still arguing about science, physics and the meaning of words! :D

Personally I think the biggest violation with jump putts and putts in general is when people straddle jump putt and their dominant foot is not behind the mini (left foot behind the mini for a right handed thrower). They put their dominant foot forward too much. That is why I put my left foot about 5-6 inches behind the mini when I straddle. It makes it legal. Try straddling correctly where there is a green marked off and you will see it is hard to make it legal unless the foot behind the mini is back a little.

yepper. and thats another problem with the rules (imo), it would be nice to allow a straddle putter to straddle the mini.

yepper. and thats another problem with the rules (imo), it would be nice to allow a straddle putter to straddle the mini.



Why?

yepper. and thats another problem with the rules (imo), it would be nice to allow a straddle putter to straddle the mini.



Then there would be the problem with the rules that a straight on putter should be allowed to stand 2 feet left or right.

By straddle putting you already have two options of which direction (left or right of the lie) you stand. I'm stuck with straight behind.

I think you should have to declare a plant foot at the start of the round and that is the only one that you can use to satisfy the supporting point rule. (NOT REALLY...)

The straddle putter already has an advantage with options of straddling left or right from the mini. If anything, the straddle putter should have to declare whether they want to straddle left or right at the beginning of the round and stick with it. If there were a way to have the mini halfway between the straddler's legs as the only option, then that would be best, but seems impractical.

geez Chuck, at least Brian said he was kidding! declaring left or right foot is a joke correct?

how about this : if you feel constrained by your in-line stance, spend the time you need to learn a straddle putt.

dont tell me to spend the time to learn the in-line for those times when it is illegal to have the marker perfectly positioned at your body's midpoint because the feet are straddling the mini. i already did that.

I'm just saying that there's no need to also allow the straddle putter to straddle the mini. They can already play that center line with a foot forward stance or have two options to play left or right with a straddle. Seems like liberal enough options already. I have had to correct some beginners a few times who thought straddling the mini WAS the only option... :D

New Rules of Disc Golf

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off

If the player leaves the playing surface while throwing, the disc must leave his hand before returning to the playing surface. The player may return to the playing surface in front of or to the side of the lie. No violation can occur if the disc does not leave the player�s hand.

Supporting Points:
a) no supporting point may be in front of the lie
b) if there is more than one supporting point when the disc is released, the LOP must fall between two of the supporting points
c) if there is one supporting point when the disc is released, it must be within 30cm of the LOP and within 30cm of the lie.
d) If there are no supporting points when the disc is released, the last supporting point must be within 30cm of the LOP and within 30cm of the lie.

That could lead to some interesting shots, but I think the 10m line should remain to prevent diving at the basket.

i clarified my thoughts on supporting points.

yes, it would be interesting. more interesting, more athletic, more fun to watch - AND easier to call infractions!

why prevent diving at the basket?

Based on that set of rules, I can tee off, put down the mini to create the LOP then walk up to the basket straddle the LOP as long as both feet are on the ground and drop in for two! :D

good point! i fixed it (sort of... this idea is not for bulletproof wording, its for the general concept)

To fix Chuck's issue, if there are more than 2 supporting points, 2 would have to straddle the LOP and the line connecting them would have to pass within 30 cm of the marker.

With the Jump putt allowed, when I'm stuck behind a line of shrubs that I would have to throw around, I can instead take a running leap sideways, leaping 8 feet through the air back into the fairway and throwing the clear shot before I land and impale myself on something...

Not a good rule in my mind...

The rule would be fine. Your "choice" might not be...

perhaps a moot point, but:
why assume that straddle putter will always straddle putt?

Sometimes I straddle putt, sometimes I "normal" putt, sometimes I turbo putt, and on occasion I jump putt, and (rarely) I flick putt. Depending on what the situation calls for. Learn them all, be a well rounded golfer.

Similarly, I throw mostly sidearm, but often use a backhand. Sometimes I throw hammers, thumbers, rollers, grenades, scoobers, high-release, and even bowling shots if necessary.

I agree. I'm not the one that wants a rule to let you straddle the LOP.

I putt normally. When I need to I straddle, I do. When I need to throw a scoober putt, I do.

I also find that when I need an ultimate style touch throw it helps to throw a fake to get the trees to bite the other way before I make the throw... :D

hahahaha. Clearly I'm an ultimate player too. On occasion I've thrown fakes while DGing, just for that natural feel. In fact, for most of my upshots/fairway throws I use a pivot foot rather then a run up. (planting my lead foot right behind the mini)

Can't wait to see a whole Super Class event filled with ultimate players. In fact, when someone mentioned diving at the basket that's all I could picture. Though, the layout is for catching, it's illegal to jump and throw (unless your executing a "Greatest"!)

I'm thinking we might need some swinging baskets for Super Class events to make the ultimate players feel more at home. ;)

It's so much easier to hit a target (player) that adjusts itself to your bad throws!! And you can't lead a basket. But I guess you'll never get D'd playing golf.

this rule would not invalidate any form. it would make judging faults easier. it woulds also liven things up and create more excitement.

my Supporting Point notes are messed up though, because they seem to allow a player to put both feet 30cm to the same side of LOP, then stretch even farther away. the intent was too keep one foot on each side.

how about this instead:

a) launch points are the two locations where the player last made, or is making, contact with the playing surface at the time of release.
b) the LOP must be between the two launch points or through one launch point at time of release.
c) one of the launch points must be within 30cm of the LOP and within 30cm of the lie.
d) no launch point may be in front of the lie.

what happens if someone putts traditionally with one foot behind the mini, but putts flat footed with both feet?

You might have to allow more than 3 seconds for someone to call a foot fault since it will take a while longer to quickly check the rules to know if a fault condition occurred... :D

zac, then everything is good. chuck, why? is it more complicated than now?

I've suggested the "launch before returning to the ground" idea before so no problem there. But allowing the variety of stances you're proposing seems more complicated than a support point on LOP within 30 cm behind the mark as it currently exists.

why prevent diving at the basket?



the injuries* wouldn't be pretty and we still imo should force people to learn the most difficult fundamental: making 25 footers consistently (in competition)

i like the athletic shots one could do from the woods or over a slope, etc. that this would allow outside the putting circle though...

*for example if i play out of my head and sit ready to win an A tier Masters division if i make an 18 footer -- i will be tempted to do a full lay out and break my hand inside the basket to ensure i sink the "putt" just to avoid the haunting how-could-you-miss-an-18-footer-even-if-everything-was-on-the-line?" afterthought :p :D

to all the ultimate players: has anyone had a caddy, etc. move from a point perpendicular to your mark to just behind the basket so you could time the putt? for me that would be a huge help :D

If anything, the straddle putter should have to declare whether they want to straddle left or right at the beginning of the round and stick with it.



You have got to be kidding. Now I've heard everything.

That was only in response to Sandalman's proposal allowing straddle putters to straddle the mini. No one is seriously proposing that. :D

I've suggested the "launch before returning to the ground" idea before so no problem there. But allowing the variety of stances you're proposing seems more complicated than a support point on LOP within 30 cm behind the mark as it currently exists.

the current rule for position is too restrictive because it does not come close to what is called in reality. the proposed wording increases the area from which it is legal to throw. keeping the LOP between the two points is necessary unless you want to allow me to move 30cm left or right of the mark. i'm not necessarily against that idea, but i think it might meet more resistance.

would it be ok to say "the LOP must run through the player when the player was last on the ground" ? thats the intent, and thats not complicated :D

I don't see how the current rule is too restrictive. By putting a supporting point behind your lie, the disc can be launched from a huge area (roughly a 14' diameter hemisphere).

how often is the supporting point exactly on LOP within 30cm?

For me, every time.

Me too. Why wouldn't it be? Do folks routinely cheat on this rule in Texas?

if thats the rule and breaking it equals cheating, then yeah we cheat. i'd bet no region, or even player, it completely immune. a common refrain from the better players i've talked to indicates that no one really cares about being precisely on the line, and that a certain amount of latitude is somewhat expected and regularly given. the current rule is significantly more precise than the anthropological basis of the sport. the proposed rule fixes that and is more visually appealing to an action-sport oriented public..

I don't think we should be changing the rules to the game simply b/c people don't follow them to the letter. Sure when people run up to their disc in the fairway, sometimes they aren't directly on the line of play and allowing jump putts makes for difficult calls on the course, but I don't see either of these as a justification for a rule change.

I think that tying stance to the last two points of contact will be even more complicated, confusing, and impossible to call infractions on that the current system. In the fairway, problems normally occur during a run-up and determining if the last two points of contact straddled the LOP seems almost impossible to me.

Also, I would say that any time when a player is not on the LOP, not involving a run-up is just willfully breaking the rules. The closer one gets to the basket, I think the proposed rule would become far to easy to manipulate for advantage. I can quickly think of a handful of ways, which to me says there will be many that players can come up with.

if thats the rule and breaking it equals cheating, then yeah we cheat. i'd bet no region, or even player, it completely immune. a common refrain from the better players i've talked to indicates that no one really cares about being precisely on the line, and that a certain amount of latitude is somewhat expected and regularly given. the current rule is significantly more precise than the anthropological basis of the sport. the proposed rule fixes that and is more visually appealing to an action-sport oriented public..



It isn't that hard to hit your mark if you are actually trying to hit it. My size 11 1/2s are about a foot long. Since the plant foot comes down sideways, I have an area about 12" x 11" that I have to land my foot on. That's just under 60% of the size of first base, and there isn't some other guy standing with his foot on part of your mark.

Of course if you don't pay attention and run up willy-nilly, you can get more on your throw.

And if I jump from 6" closer on my tennis serve I can get it in more often, and if I line up offsides as a defensive end, I can get to the quarterback quicker, and if stand in front of the 3 point line, the shot gets easier...

And two of the three are violations, and one loses you a point if it goes in.

..

so because people cheat, you are saying you should give them different options and then somehow expect them not to cheat? that doesnt make sense to me. foot fault is a foot fault. seeing it and calling it are a bit more difficult,.. but i bet youd call a falling putt inside 8 feet in the heat of battle, its easier to see, but cheating just the same.

no, thats not quite what i was saying. i dont believe most foot faults are a cheating. most definitions of cheating seem to imply intent. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cheat i agree a foot fault is a foot fault. when i make them its cuz i'm not all that good, not because i was cheating. this rule idea merely provides a larger area from which to legally throw. at the beginning i was hoping to find a single wording that would allow a straddle putter to straddle the lie and also allow leaping shots.

I think the problem with your wording is that it doesn't fit the problem you are trying to solve. People not being behind their mark is not a huge problem while putting, and is very easy to both see and call. (I am ignoring the leaping shots thing b/c I see it as a different issue entirely)

i understand the word 'cheating' requires intent in most cases, but what about gaining an unfair advantage? what happens when a track runner steps on the line on the inside of a corner. he didnt do it on purpose, but its against the rules, so he is disqualified. there isnt malicious intent or trying to get an edge, but we all have to follow the same rules for it to be as fair as possible.

swimmer takes off the blocks early, they werent trying to doop anyone into not seeing them false start, but were trying to do their best and finish the fastest, still disquallified.

i just find it unbelievable that top players in your region tell people to disregard certain rules because they dont care about them. you cant pick and choose, there are rules that i dont agree with, but i have to follow them (to the best of the group's interpretation sometimes).

i was surprised also. its not "players in our region" though. falling putts and releasing after jumping were topics i asked touring pros about throughout 2008. i was surprised to hear some (most) of our best that had opinions state that they didnt really care about whether someone was a couple inches off of the LOP on an upshot and that they dont particularly pay attention to it unless/until it appears thats its being taken advantage of. if we're not gonna enforce the rules, if we're gonna provide that kind of latitude then lets write rules that recognize it.

Unfortunately, it's prevalent in our society to do such. Example: Not following the posted speed limit. Everyone "does it"...as long as it's not TOO apparent. Do it "a little" and the cops are wrong; do it too much, and "I deserved it" (but will do it again - whether consciously or not).

Karl

I certainly don't condone 'breaking ANY rules / laws', but we (society) have brought it upon ourselves - and it'll be a toughie to overcome.

We should TRY to make rules that either 1) CAN be enforced or 2) are written so that they CAN'T be broken.

Example of # 1: Stand and Deliver (oh no, here we go again!) :eek: is one such "possibility". There are many others (which would help).
Example of # 2: You NEVER have to worry about O.B. rules if you design a course with NO O.B. (I understand that this is a simplistic view of such, but you get my point).

Karl

I suspect it's normal to look at stances more closely when the player is in schule or near trees to make sure they don't specifically take advantage.

i do understand what youre saying, and the problem that i see it cause time and again, is ...

when someone does call the foot fault or falling putt, when most dont, they are then the bad guy and in a crappy situation.

i see it happen all the time that people dont call things, and im sure it happens on my card and i dont notice the foot position behind the mark on an approach, but i dont think you should equate 'missing it', with 'it doest matter'.

if you practice consciously hitting that mark, you will hit the mark. and if no one enforces it, people wont care or practice it. its really not that difficult. and personally if its easy to do, and is the rules, im going to make an effort every time.

Don't know Chuck.
I'm guessing it's probably a case (of looking at stances more closely) of "when it's convenient" or "when I think of it" or "when it's down to the last few holes and we're in a dog fight".
I know I don't have the energy / competitive spirit to ALWAYS do such to ALL my opponents...I'm having to much trouble just worrying about MY play!

Karl

Zach,

I hear you. Being the "meany" is NG...although it shouldn't be perceived as such (but we know it IS). I wish we would ALL just 'call everything' or 'call nothing'. The former leads to "not fun, too competitive, etc."; the latter to anarchy. Neither is good. I'm guessing the only solution is to "simplify" the rules (in some way) so that all COULD be called - and that these 'calls' are accepted!
Scenario: Less tournaments, but when you're in one, you'll be "under the microscope"!
I can't think of another sport where there are SO many "sanctioned" tournaments (for a fledgling sport) compared to casual play. We appear to be trying to "grow up" so fast (money, money, money!) that we're outgrowing our brains. You've heard of "growing pains", we're in it. Ah, being a teenager all over again! By the way, it sucks. Once our minds catch up with our bodies, we'll be OK.

Chuck,

Actually, in most "treey" situations (leaning around 1), I think most people DO (at least try) 'hold their mark'; it's the run-up types (of throws) that people THINK they hit it but are concentrating on the throw / target so much that, in fact, they do NOT hit it...or hit it occasionally.
And when this happens in ankle high (or higher) grass - where no one can see that player's mark - it is virtually impossible to call anything! And if you're standing so close (with another person who'll be needed to second the call) that you CAN see it, that player is going to flip! You'll get called for a C.V. for "being a distraction", etc.
This is a perfect example of a rule being written (in all good intent) that just isn't cutting the muster.

Karl

We're talking about putting. How hard is it to "hit your mark" when you are putting? If you know the rule and you don't follow it when you are putting, that's cheating.

not hard at all to hit your mark when putting. the thread title is about putting yes. i guess i broadened it to all shots :) .

Texans like things big.

I am very adament about LOP. When I do a run up in the fairway, I step off my run up like a field goal kicker. I don't look too closely at other people's feet when they are in the middle of the fairway, but when stuck next to a tree or obstacle, I look very close. Two inches in the fairway is not an advantage giving situation, two inches next to an obstacle is an advantage and could be the difference in stroke's and CASH!

LOP shouldn't be up for discussion! Jump Putts should!

How would a person or group of people go about comissioning the PDGA to change the rule governing jump putts?

Lobbying of the BOD would probably be the only way, and then expect a backlash similar to those that cried that the PDGA would die if the 2m rule was removed. Personally, I'd like to see Stand & Deliver with the side effect of killing jump putts, but I don't think I have a heavy enough flak jacket to champion it.

Looks like Rules may be reviewed next year for an update to go into effect in 2011. The Rules Committee will be taking lots of feedabck from members on a variety of rules issues then.

<object height="344" width="425"><object height="344" width="425">Hmmm...

<object height="344" width="425">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KKaC1Cf60z0&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object></object></object>

Another thing some players get away with, when straddle putting, is picking up the foot behind the disc or mini before releasing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FTF0YwVJLI

Bam!