Didn't see anyone start a new thread on this subject, so here it is. Lets keep it going - maybe we can get farther with it than we did a few years ago.

Vinnie, could you send me your proposal [email protected] And anyone else for that matter that has a proposal.

For those that dont know, this latest discussion began on this (http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=897780&an=0&page=0#Post8 97780) thread

I think this discussion would be much more productive if it was limited to achievable goals. For example:

1. Creating a calendar which ALLOWS FOR big regional events to be highlighted.

2. A scheduling framework addressing the needs of Texas players, akin to Gary's description.



A sure-fire way to make sure this thread is not productive is to:

1. Try to recreate the PDGA, or the Hall of Fame; ;) btw, if Houck is in, Hoser must be in also.

2. Try to get back at the PDGA through this schedule; or

3. Try to create a Texas Series, if that means funneling everything to one event. This is a goal that might be pursued after a strong foundation is layed; certainly not before.

The goal of the State schedule is not to create big events, but to allow for them. Creating big events is a job for TDs, clubs, and hopefully regions, but certainly not through a centralized command and control.

Is it possible (maybe it's already been done?) to get hard numbers about how many events last year in Texas and how much total purse value? How much was sent to Georgia for sanctioning and player fees?

If insurance and player ratings are the main reasons for pdga sanctioning, surely there is a way to get that done cheaper and keep more of each player's money local. Even if a small portion of each player's entry went to a state-wide final, Texas Disc Golf Players (or some other name) could become THE sanctioning body for this area.

I am NOT, NO WAY, NOT EVEN, suggesting dropping the pdga. I believe most serious players should join or renew their membership with the pdga, since many of us have put in a huge investment with this org. There is no reason to write new rules, since a lot of us have helped get them to where they are now.

Maybe those who donate extra to the pdga would consider donating to a more local effort also. I know I will donate whatever I can, be it time, money, or effort.

I disagree with several of the proposed foundations of this thread. We must accept that we cannot enforce any scheduling structure for the state, unless we have something to reward those who participate in it. Thus, the scheduling plan and some sort of series go hand-in-hand. I don't mean series by the traditional definition, but a Texas Disc Golf Association with its own set of regulations, points, and rewards. This can easily go hand-in-hand with PDGA sanctioning, but it should allow for tournaments to participate even if they can't afford to sanction through the PDGA. Participation should also be free and not involve any sort of money pushing up to other events.

The PDGA simply isn't equipped to handle scheduling conflicts like what we have here in Texas. They've offered no solution to our problem... they've even made it worse this year. I already have a framework for software that could manage something like this. With help, I can turn it into a system by which all Texas events are scheduled. It can do ratings, points, qualifiers, etc. There's no reason to try and replace the PDGA, but we *can* supplement what they do with something more tailored to our own needs.

I just goes back to enforcement. We can't stop someone from running an unsanctioned event in TX. we can't even stop them from running a sanctioned one. we *can* build a set of rules that rewards those who play nice and excludes those who don't.

"The goal of the State schedule is not to create big events, but to allow for them. Creating big events is a job for TDs, clubs, and hopefully regions, but certainly not through a centralized command and control. "

i with James on this one. for me i would rather focus on no longer needing the pdga structure in order to run events and provide ratings. personally, i am less concerned with creating events than for creating conditions where these events can flourish. that means my input on scheduling etc is very limited... my focus needs to be on developing alternatives to pdga-controlled insurance and ratings. i understand and support those who take other routes. the bottom line for me is to offer something of value and then let the market/events/TDs/players take it wherever the want it to go.

does everyone have a copy?
email me if you want some
[email protected]
One thing we can not do......... is let this die
It is time for a change and due time Texas took charge of it future

First of all TeamJustice is not anti-PDGA in any way...we ran 10 sanctioned events last year...we are running 8 this year...all sanctioned...I have been asked to run non-PDGA events at least 10 times over the last few years and have always said no(not including Teams,which I had to run as part of my job,and would have liked to play in instead)...The only reason I jumped into this discussion was to included in any "talks"...and to try a get all the TD's to work together to improve the schedule

With that being said...not one single TD has tried to contact me... not even when I offered to give up our "A" tier weekend so VPO can have 2 weekends..instead I was lumped in with Vinnie and Pat(still no e-mail from V)

Our "Tour" lost thousands of dollars last year, while raising thousands of dollars for charities and sponsoring 20 other events including another series...yet other than the "Third Coast" crew, no one wants to work together

It will be interesting to see how the Red Rock Show does with a non-sanctioned Z-Boaz the same weekend :confused:

filthy feets - I'm with you... in fact we might want to collaborate on the ratings/points software. I've already got a mostly working model :)

My point wasn't taht we need to create more events, it was that we need a way to enforce the organization of existing (and any future) events. The PDGA isn't going to give us that, so we need to figure out a way to create it ourselves. With enough of the major TX TDs on board, a new system could be quickly adopted.

Again, I don't want to replace the PDGA... I don't think we need a new set of rules (well, actually...) or tech standards. We don't need to undermine what they're doing. we just need to organize at a level they can't (or won't) give us.

I am all for promoting local and regional events, but I can't figure out where the conflict started. I understand some people have fundamental issues with the PDGA and how it is being run. There is always room for improvement in any organization, no matter how large or small.

If I am reading all of this right, it seems like the majority of the grumbling stems from event scheduling. Doesn't the issue of scheduling fall to the state coordinator? It seems that is the case, since this is a duty that has been delegated to the respective coordinators. Perhaps in large states with lots of courses, like Texas, California, Florida, etc. there should be a series of regional coordinators who know their zones a little better than one person who may or may not have ever even been to all of those regions.

What I am saying is, I support the Texas series idea as a layer over the existing structure, but isn't there a way to try and solve the problem from within, rather than trying to start over? Maybe I am being naive, but I don't think the PDGA is completely unreceptive to making positive incremental changes.

It is up to the State Coordinator to keep the PDGA from scheduling PDGA events without his permission.

Gary, did something change with the recent changes in Georgia, I though we had Brian H. trained to not take money till yours or my approval????

I know Brian H. got an ear full from me the last time he tried that. (it was over a MaceMan event, Mace went over my head instead of contacting his State Coordinator (me). After that incident, the PDGA would not approve a PDGA event without my approval (except for A and NT events which the State Coordinator has no say on)

I am hoping this starts something for all of us and is not ment to be a attach on anyone.
This conversation needs to happen.
Mitch you got mail
Many people will have input,but after a point it will get watered down. I am going to take everyone;s inpuTT and try....TRY to slim it down. Then role it out to as many people as possible.
Hopefull it will take

It will be interesting to see how the Red Rock Show does with a non-sanctioned Z-Boaz the same weekend :confused:



Prediction: Both fill and will be very successful events.

It is up to the State Coordinator to keep the PDGA from scheduling PDGA events without his permission.

...the PDGA would not approve a PDGA event without my approval (except for A and NT events which the State Coordinator has no say on)



Emphasis mine. There is the biggest problem. The SC's have no say in A-tier scheduling. I know States caused a big kefluffle when it switched to Spring and I know that the PDGA bolloxed up the schedule one year when it shuffled the Big Show and Waco. I also know that the SC was powerless to "control" any of it.

The PDGA needs to give up on trying to coordinate A-tiers across the country and give the SC's some actual authority in scheduling. The SC's know their territory and their constituency better than anyone in Augusta. Let the SC's have first crack at setting up the A-tiers.

The mileage minimums for A-tiers typically go beyond state lines, even in a state as big as Texas, which is the reason the PDGA coordinates A-tiers rather than state coordinators.

I may have misunderstood the intentions of some of you when I posted on the other thread. It sounded like some of the players wanted to abandon affiliation with the PDGA so we could keep Texas resourses here (money).
Now I'm hearing that many are thinking of a combination of two organizations to maintain sanctioning from the PDGA and establish a points system for Texas events. The only way this could happen, though, is if the PDGA were to still recieve all fees we are currently paying and then adding extra fees for Texas finals or detracting from the purses. Either way it would have to be paid for seperately from our pockets.
Vinnie, could I see a copy too, please? [email protected]

Gary, did something change with the recent changes in Georgia, I though we had Brian H. trained to not take money till yours or my approval????



It was that way for a while, then a few got through without me knowing the details. They only look at the little checkbox that asks the TD if they have scheduled with the SC, if the TD says they have, they schedule the event.

[QUOTE]




1. Try to recreate the PDGA, or the Hall of Fame; ;) btw, if Houck is in, Hoser must be in also.

I played with him a few times James and had no idea he was responsible for growth in Texas that rivals JH. What did he do?

We must accept that we cannot enforce any scheduling structure for the state, unless we have something to reward those who participate in it.



We do-higher participation in their event.

Skip, it was a bad joke, written just in case John read this thread and got a big head. Few left even remember Hoser and his catch phrase of "I gonna reel you in."

By the way, my opinion is that the decision to sanction is entirely up to those running the tourney.

The mileage minimums for A-tiers typically go beyond state lines, even in a state as big as Texas, which is the reason the PDGA coordinates A-tiers rather than state coordinators.



That doesn't mean it should be that way, just because it is currently.

We must accept that we cannot enforce any scheduling structure for the state, unless we have something to reward those who participate in it.



We do-higher participation in their event.



Do you have any evidence to back that up?

Is there proof that a sanctioned event will always draw more players than an unsanctioned one.

I don't think many events in recent memory have enjoyed the popularity or attendance of the series of unsanctioned events known as the Texas 10.

Players show up for good events on good courses run by good TDs in good weather. If you have three of those four, you will get a good turn-out most of the time.

Sanctioning helps, but lack of sanctioning does not stop more than a handful of players.

Looks like he's arguing that a "better schedule" provides more participation, independent of whether events are sanctioned.

You are not going to like this, but here goes.

YOU ALL are a bunch of Amateurs, except for two people within this discussion. WE elected them as OUR representatives, one has said 'enough' and the other still tries, and I DO NOT remember ANYBODY stepping up and saying that they would like the job.

With that said here is what I have to say...LET Gary do his job and that means that HE and HE alone schedules the tournaments. HE knows the logistics of the schedule. That also means that NO ONE TD schedules a tournament, sanctioned or not without his acknowledgement and approval.

What does that mean. Every TD in the state sends to him their want list of tournaments and their possible dates by "X" date. He then does the schedule within the parameters allowed. He schedules around the NTs and A tiers and allows for travel distance between the two and then trickles it down the food chain for the B and C tiers and the non-sanctioned tournaments. He also has at his discrection to move a tournament if it is not as large as another has become. I think at this point I would trust Gary not to move one too far away from the original date unless okayed by the TD or powers that be that run that tournament. With that kind of frame work, he can look at the different regions and hopefully make 95% of the TD's happy.

If you don't like what he does, then vote him out the next time his re-election comes up and have someone that will take his job. That is what democracy is all about.

If you don't like that idea, then let the TEXAS HIGH SCHOOL COACHES ASSOCIATION do it, They do it with pride and with a magnitude of 1000x more attendies to athletic events across the state.

ps...I respect alot of you and your ideas, but get it together and propose it to the STATE COORDINATOR.

Okay now I am off of my soap box.

Victoria Open in May? Good job SC.

Disc Coach, Gary has done and is doing exactly what you are saying. The problem apparently was some TD's bypassed him by checking a box on there form.

All I did was tell Gary I was going to run my tournament, he gave me my weekend and I filled out the PDGA paperwork. Gary even brought out tents, Tarps and the PA system for me to use. (with Hurricane Ike, those Tarps were VERY handy)

I stepped down from being State Coordinator because I had too much on my plate. I didn't step down until I found someone who would keep the momentum I had built up going.

I am not disappointed at all, we would be stupid to elect anyone else for that position. (however I am sure there are a few people who could handle it, it is just Gary has done such a great job) Don't forget I was the State/Region Coordinator for several years before Gary took over, before I took over, the Region Coordinator didn't to anything except be a point of contact for local media. (I had more calls from media than tournament directors the first few years)

I do want to credit Kent Bray for getting the ball rolling with the State Coordinator, he came up with some of the ideas that I put in place to organize Texas. Gary still uses the same spreadsheet I build back then.

It might be time to start up the LSDGA again. (oh yea, I have to spell it out to keep from being sued by DGA, Lone Star Disc Golf Alliance)

Bryan, I think they have stopped litigating on use of the initials. I've had LSDGA.com up for several years. I don't use any spreadsheets for scheduling, everything is database driven.

As for Victoria, I want it to be on the 21-22 of February where it belongs. No one from Victoria will contact me. I am working with others to finalize their date, and have been trying to get it done for three weeks. I still do not know when it will be, but next year it should be back on the third weekend of February wherever it ends up this year.

The problems with the schedule come from Easter and the date of Am World Doubles moving to mid March instead of April.

Thank you Paul for the support, but I am in favor of regional coordinators in a state the size of Texas. I cannot stay abreast or what is happening in all of the areas of the state. I rely heavily on connected individuals in many areas of the state to let me know what is going on and what needs to be separated. I don't want to dictate everything, and most TDs are reasonable about sliding their dates if there is a real conflict.

The problem is that some people think there are too many already, and I get new requests almost every month. We just need to set up a system where they are not all competing for the same group of players.

Looks like he's arguing that a "better schedule" provides more participation, independent of whether events are sanctioned.




That is what I meant. Although,around here (DFW) just about every tourney for the last year has filled to capacity. So I don't where you would put the extra people.
When there is a tourney every two weeks (sanctioned or non-sanctioned) within an hour of my house I'm content to stay here and play in those when there is a scheduling conflict. A more streamlined schedule would allow more leeway for out-of-town trips.

As for Victoria, I want it to be on the 21-22 of February where it belongs. No one from Victoria will contact me. I am working with others to finalize their date, and have been trying to get it done for three weeks. I still do not know when it will be, but next year it should be back on the third weekend of February wherever it ends up this year.

The problems with the schedule come from Easter and the date of Am World Doubles moving to mid March instead of April.

Thank you Paul for the support, but I am in favor of regional coordinators in a state the size of Texas. I cannot stay abreast or what is happening in all of the areas of the state. I rely heavily on connected individuals in many areas of the state to let me know what is going on and what needs to be separated. I don't want to dictate everything, and most TDs are reasonable about sliding their dates if there is a real conflict.

The problem is that some people think there are too many already, and I get new requests almost every month. We just need to set up a system where they are not all competing for the same group of players.



Victoria is an example of why the system is broken, and I am not blaming Gary. Statewide juggling of tourneys serves noone, noone that I know at least. Take the players in central Texas for example. Most love the HOTT Tour, the Third Coast Tour and our various touneys in between, with Victoria being one of the most respected.

In other words, the scheduling of Victoria should first revolve around the flexibility that the TD can provide, but viewed from a regional perspective . Additionally, since it is viewed as one of the better tourneys in the region, it should be made a regional schedule jewel, not one squeezed in somewhere.

These ideas might be amateurish, but I run across very few people who feel state-controlled scheduling is benefitting players. New ideas and structures are badly needed, imo.

I am not from Texas however, I would like to show you guys what we do here in Michigan.

MDGO (www.mdgo.org)

The Michigan Disc Golf Organization

It is a group of all of the active clubs in Michigan that has pretty much 2 goals:

1. Create a statewide schedule trying to eliminate as many overlaps as possible.

2. Create a state championship.

The clubs send representatives to meet a few times at the end of the year and along with the state coordinator we hammer out a schedule that covers a vast majority of the sanctioned and non-sanctioned events for the year.

We also have 10 Featured Events that are meant to be the highlight tournaments of the season. They are usually B-Tiers or they are C-Tiers that have the payouts of a B-Tier.

We have also created a berth system for the state finals that ties into these Feature Events as well as distribute berths through the active clubs.

It has worked out well for the players and the clubs in the state.

The Minnesota Frisbee Association has had a state zone structure for the past 10 years. The four elected Zone Coordinators work with the State Coordinator in relation to statewide scheduling of both sanctioned and unsanctioned events. Perhaps Texas could elect or appoint 3-6 zone coordinators to work with Gary on scheduling in the future. Minnesota is a pretty big state and we can have events simultaneously in more than one zone. But usually those events serve different player populations or are far enough apart that we don't consider it a conflict. The zones are developing their own tours separate, but sometimes overlapping with the primary state tour. We use a player's best X events structure for tour standings which allows players to play in multiple tours and still be able to play the minimum required to contend in each.

V...my puter says the "File is Corupt"

now that's funny :D

use word to open file

MICH. and Minn are good examples of the Texas idea being passed around.

Here is a thought maybe the pdga should only schedule B and C tiers through SC. So everyone wanting to sanction a tourney would first pass through the sc before the PDGA ever saw it.

The SC is responsible for scheduling B/C tier events....after they are handed the NT/A tier schedule from the PDGA. Though, there have been B/C tier events that have bypassed the SC....then indicated to the PDGA that they had talked to the SC.

I still dont think we have a real good idea of what we're trying to do here. Alliviate scheduling conflicts with regional coordinators? Pool money into something on a state wide level? Offer event types that we currently dont? Do away with events we currently have? All if the above? None of the above? I dont know about anyone else, but Im confused on what exactly people are looking to accomplish.

btw....Im running numbers right now on Texas sanctioned events for 2008.

I am just as confused. I see a replay of last year, where ten people with ten different ideas throw them out there, the resulting task is insurmountable and predictably, nothing gets done.

My synopsis of what I've read is the following ideas/goals:

1. Have the state coordinator essentially focus solely on scheduling big events (hopefully in a way that maximizes things) and let the other pieces fall where they may. This is where need for a regional coordinator comes into play, as they can arrange those pieces better;

2. Make scheduling more of a regional activity, controlled mainly by regional coordinators/groups with a minimal amount of statewide oversight/prodding etc.;

3. Create a state-wide series. This is destined to fail and a sure-fire waste of time at this period in statewide cooperation, imo. Additionally, what need does it really serve? I hear a lot of complaints about scheduling, the lack of one-days lack of big tourneys, spacing of big tourneys, etc. However, I rarely hear that all we need is a statewide final at the end of the year. Besides, if we cannot even get people together at the regional level to create a regional biggie, how is a statewide effort going to happen?; or

4. Everything is fine. We already have the best system.

I suggest that if we don't buy into idea #4, we work towards achieving the simplest of goals, or the goals that we are most likely to achieve.

I'm with you, James. I'm seeing the problem as the PDGA allowing people to bypass Gary. This needs to stop. All submittals for sanctioning with the PDGA should be made by him. Unsanctioned would be harder to integrate unless we did have the Regional Coors. working together to help in the efforts.
As far as the number of events goes, everybody loves the convienence of one day events. Getting people to steer things that way IMO would make things more managable.
If we were to attempt a state final funded by all the other events, sanc. or not, we would need to make it feasable for a TD to contribute without losing a considerable amount to his purse.

The problem is the inconsistency in the quality, commitment and just simple availability of State Coordinators. If all PDGA B & C tiers actually had to go thru the State Coordinators there would be many places with bigger problems than the few who bypass their State Coordinator now under the current system.

No Skip, my concern is not that that people skip Gary, my contention is that Gary's job description is incorrect (since I agree with the first two goals in my previous post). I realize Gary is doing the job he is supposed to, I just think it is the wrong job.

So as I see it, James,you would like for Gary's job to be coordinating all the regional coordinators. If I'm wrong then I'm not seeing your point. If I'm right then we're on the same page.
I disagree with Chuck's assertion that the job would be too overwhelming if everyone had to go through the State Coordinator. I see it as the only way to run smoothly.

Might work in Texas while Gary's in there. But it's non-functional nationwide as a policy.

Actually James, I do generally work through unofficial regional coordinators since I can't travel enough now to keep up with everything that is going on in the state.

I would love to have official regions and coordinators established. I would also love to be copied on all sanctioning requests and correspondence with the PDGA. If for nothing else so I can show that correspondence did take place if anything is lost.

I intend to rework the website to allow clubs to have the ability to directly maintain pages on the site for club news and information. Regional coordination would work with that very well.

From your points.

1. Big events need to be coordinated with small events in the areas they draw from. I try to spread them around as much as possible so the same players are not being called on to fill events every week. But big events and local events cannot be scheduled without some interaction.

2. Same comments as above. Statewide and regional events must work together.

3. I just don't think a statewide series under different TDs will work for very long. The coordination just isn't there now.

4. The system we have now is not the best, but it does work. Without agreement on what we are trying to achieve, progress is going to be difficult to obtain or measure.


As far as what I see as needing to be addressed.

1. There needs to be fewer and stronger large scale events aimed at pro and top level advanced players.

2. I would like to see some protection to the long standing popular events that have a proven ability to draw players from all over the state.

3. There needs to be more attention to providing events for sub 900 players that focus on teaching what it means and how to act in a tournament environment. These should be fun learning events.

There really are no big events that draw from around the state. The ones that people can argue fit that bill have become more regional over time. That is just the way it is, disc golf in Texas is a regionally based system. This is partly due to the proliferation of events and part of that is the spacing of events. I would also argue part is that some of the more traditional events have stayed on lame courses, and that cuts down the desire to travel.

At any rate it, for scheduling big events, it seems to me that there are a few important issues that need to be addressed up-front, and then dates should be set aside, in a sensible manner. That is about it in a nutshell.


What are big events
This is important, not from an aesthetic sense. We all have our notion of what a big event is, but to establish criteria for TDs and clubs to know if they want to participate. The criteria I advocate is intended to accomodate big events, but not scare away good TDs

1. Have two good courses, and
2. Have good, honest people in charge.

That is about it really. I don't see this as a "money added" issue, that is a perk, not a requirement. However, I would suspect that this won't be a big issue as the people who step up would already be familiar with big events.

Additionally, I would hope to encourage a spirit of cooperation amongst regional TDs and regional pride from the players. In other words, I would expect all of central Texas to work together to support the regional events.

Initial scheduling issues
This breaks down as follows:

1. There arerguably four dates that have national significance, and should be avoided when setting big dates for Texas. They cover six weekends. Pro Worlds, Am Worlds, USDGC, and Am Doubles (only cause it has traditionally been in Texas).

2. There are certain holidays to avoid. Christmas/New years, Thanksgiving, Easter, Mothers Day, and maybe July 4th.

That leaves about 40 or so weekends available.

The mildly difficult part.
There needs to be a sense, gathered from people acrosss the state on:
1. If the task was to host a big event, preferably on two quality courses, would you want to participate?
2. If so, how many events can your area/region handle?

Just to give you an idea, I will describe how many of these I currently see possible. No one get offended, the landscape is always changing, and I don't have the best of eyesight. This is just my view.

West Texas - 2
Third Coast - 1
San Antonio - 1
Austin - 2
Houston - 1
East Texas - 1
DFW - 2
Waco/Temple - Would be nice to get 1

So, I see somewhere between 6 and 12 of these things

Schedule the events
Based on the data from the previous steps. schedule these events using the following criteria:
1. Space them out throughout the year, hopefully with some climactic concerns. Hopefully, it would make sense if Southern locales would accept January/February dates and West Texas use a July date. August could be skipped for Worlds and we could avoid the worst of the summer.
2. Give these tourneys, and only these tourneys, some protection. Not total protection, but reasonable protection from at least B tiers within 200 miles.
3. Allow complete freedom on every other weekend. Regional people will hopefully work together to eliminate chaos, but this freedom will comfortably allow local regions to meet their demand and work towards their big event(s)

Encouragement and Problems/Perserverance
Encourage regions to work together, to either assist the existing TDs running the big events, or to create TDs for the big events. For the first few years, I would expect the following:

1. Some internal regional dissention and general whining. This is natural, and I suspect some regions would adapt to this schedule much better than others.
2. What appear to be under-utilized dates. This is OK. This will certainly be an iterative and dynamic process that will change from year to year.
3. Some TDs will complain, maybe rightly, that their date has been taken (or protection taken away) and they don't want to play ball. Such is life.

Sounds almost like you attended the 2003 TD summit we had in Lewisville. Most of those ideas were put forth in that meeting and generally agreed upon as a strategy for moving forward. I think we were set on 8 large events including TX States, VPO, ZBoaz, and Waco. West Texas, East Texas, Third Coast, and the Hill country. But the push was for a Texas championship series where all events paid into a rotating final. The logistics of that portion eventually killed the whole thing.

I am all for cooperation, coordination, and regional organization, but I learned a while back that I cannot dictate how things will happen or TDs will simply ignore me and do what they want without any standards. Unless all of the players in the state ignore events that do not play by the rules, TDs will not have to do what follow any set of rules you create.

The challenge is to develop a system that creates the best competitive and financial environment if followed as intended that still leaves room for the random unassociated events to pop up from time to time. haven't quite figured that one out yet, but I think I have some good ideas.

I still think the best way to approach enforcement is to come up with benefits to participation that greatly outweigh the cost. I think we can do that. But this isn't just about scheduling or funneling money somewhere. it's about organization. We can't do *anything* until we get more organized. This haphazard flame war isn't going to accomplish anything constructive

Would it be possible for the players involved to vote for future locations of events in their region? Or maybe clubs can accumulate points somehow for consideration in hosting future events?

Gary, can you generate a list of potential event players in the state (maybe even neighboring states)? Maybe if all TDs could send a list of all players in their past events to one place, we could compile a list of all past and present players and then send an announcement, electronic flyer, or something to see just how much potential energy there is. I realize it will take some effort and financial backing for this to happen, but I'm willing to pitch in whatever I can (maybe even set up a fundraising event to help cover costs).

Would it be possible for the players involved to vote for future locations of events in their region?



Locations? How about where there are volunteers interested in hosting and not playing their home course for the event.

I didn't attend any 2003 meeting, and it is now 2009. And nothing has changed. And not only that, it sounds like from your post that nothing will change.

Inertia can be a terrible thing.

If you so desired, you could easily institute these type of changes.

not as easy as you might think.

I like where James' idea is going. I too think is a little early to try and develop a state wide series. It sounds like contention over that issue killed both issues on the table in 2003. Why dont we just focus on the issue that did get general approval?

Gary should be the one to demarcate our regions and ask/appoint regional coordinators. Each region would act like their own "state".....working with the other regional coordinators on the big events (I see 10 of those statewide being fesable), and freely scheduling their own regional events.

West Texas has kind of indirectly done this the last 3 years with our newsletter. In fact, thats the main reason I thought we needed one....scheduling conflicts. I think it has really helped to get all west tx TD's on the same page. Perhaps we could start a Texas Disc Golf newsletter with regionally specific information. If for nothing else to get ALL the texas event dates, tier level, and location in 1 place. Something easy enough to put on your fridge or bulitin board at home. And keep the whole thing small enough for all course TD's to put on their course signs. Probably an e-newsletter would be the easiest to distribute. OR maybe we just use LSDGA.com since Gary mentioned he wants to expand its capabilities? I dont know what the time table is on that....maybe a newsltter to start with until Gary gets the site re-worked? I could help with that.

I would be interested to hear Garys idea of regions. Maybe if we're not far enough into it to propose funds from all texas events going to a big texas final, would regions be interested in pooling money together within their region? to go toward the big regional events? I dont know a lot about the past and present animosities between TD's in regions other than w. texas so maybe this isnt possible yet. But, if we could do that....maybe each region has an event that eventually turns in that regions premier event....maybe in 3-5 years from now those events are the foundation of a state wide event series?

Most of this is just thinking out load....but I really feel that we need to start SOMETHING now. There were at least 80 sanctioned events in Texas last year and it increases every year. Just in my region alone, I see growth of players, events, courses every year. I think getting our "regions" on the same page is the start to getting Texas on the same page. THEN, maybe a state org./series/championship can be born.

Maybe the first question each and everyone of us needs to ask ourselves is this: Are we willing to work together for the good of disc golf in Texas? And be honest with yourself, because if we cant, there's no use going any farther with these ideas. We have to begin this thing with at least a small amount of trust and openess.

There were at least 80 sanctioned events in Texas last year and it increases every year.



That is somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000.00 going out-of-state for sanctioning and player fees. Some of that will make it's way back around to the Lone Star state, but mostly it's going to other needs and projects. Not that it's a bad thing, just a fact.

If that number was changed to $20,000.00, think how much more could be spread around locally and at the state/regional final.

not as easy as you might think.



Nothing stands in its way except inertia and unwillingness. Sure, there might be uncooperative folks, and possibly a few uncooperative regions, but Jerry has already stated that West Texas has made strides. I'm pretty sure that the Austin area (Waterloo, Round Rock and TJ), Live Oak, Third Coast could work together. Houston already pools together for a big event, scheduling is the only issue they might have.

What is the holdup? The worst that could happen is we try and fail.

Emotions have largely been the downfall of all previous attempts.

Or someone felt like they would not get their share of the pie, so the people with the biggest pieces did not want to play.

I have never said nothing can be done, just that nothing can be done by force. There is no copyright on throwing a tournament and anyone can do it with or without the support of any organization. If they do a good job in the player's eyes, their event will be successful and grow.

To me, the problem is that we first need to establish something that makes being a part of the series something all TDs want to do and they will gladly make adjustments to be a part of it.

Heres some preliminary figures on 2008 Texas sanctioned events:

81 total sanctioned events:
1 major
1 A/B Tier
4 A Tier
26 B Tier
49 C Tier

$4,750 went to the PDGA for sanctioning fees (81 total events)
$15,473 went to the PDGA in players fees (only 69 events with official reports so far)
Dont have access to insurance payments.
So just over $20,000 so far...probably wouldnt expect more than a few thousand when its all said and done. This is all just an FYI.

Per the 69 official event reports:
$120,732 total Pro purse
1,484 Pro players

Dont have any Am prize numbers. Im guessing x2+ the amount of Pro purse.
4,453 Am/Jr. players

When the rest of the 2008 events get official results I can finish this. Imagine, if this many events participated in a Texas org of some kind and pooled 2 dollars per player together...that about $12,000 right there.

The $2 per player would be a mandatory fee to be spent later by someone we all would agree is so trustworthy that the power yielded by $12000 won�t be corrupted. Times being what they are, even if we did all agree on that person, all it would take is one little rumor and a rampant moving flame would at least hurt that person�s integrity or even destroy friendships all over the state. This is what happens in the real world. So your solution would be to have a system of checks and balances by including others in the administration of the monies. To do this all persons would HAVE to be included in the bank account. Now we�re bringing in the IRS and their own sanctioning. The $12000 now becomes $8000 because we wouldn�t be allowed to be a �not for profit� organization, plus we would be required to fill out all of their forms each year showing who received the money (oops forgot to mention the CPA fees). This will open the door we�ve been avoiding for so long, filing W-4 forms on every individual that gets $600 or more dollars in one lump sum. To avoid this happening we would have to be non- profit and that $12000 becomes $5000, because the majority of the monies would have to go to a charity or charities to qualify.
Now I�m no lawyer, but back in �90 when the ADGA was trying to find a way to accomplish the same goal I was the first treasurer and got a quick education on what we were going to be allowed to do. Every path we pursued became full of road blocks because we weren�t in it as a business. We�re all just a bunch of disc dogs that, in the end, just want to play and meet new friends. So I got a DBA no. and kept everything on the down low just like bowling leagues, dart leagues, and so on. In reality the person whose name is on the bank account is the one that risks being persecuted and as long as we keep it on the down low I don�t think that person is at any great risk. When we start waving around a corporation that controls thousands of dollars the bank (banks) involved will have questions to answer that opens the door.
The crux of this biscuit is a statewide effort towards one huge event or even a few big events will be difficult to pull off. There is already an organization that is taking on the responsibilities of answering to the public and we�re all members already. Let�s not rush into something not completely thought out.
I do, however, completely agree that regional coordinators operating on the premise of avoiding stepping on any toes by working together to help with scheduling is an extremely good idea and a step in the right direction of improving the quality of disc golf in Texas.
Thanx for your time. I don't mean to get long winded. I know how it tends to lose attention and redundancy, redudancy,etc,etc............ ;)

We actually have a non-profit club in Dallas, but I think the charter is for the development of courses, not the payout of one. Don't know if that makes any difference to the IRS.

Yes it would, and my guess is you're still small enough to not attract attention. If you did have a true non profit qualification you are required by law to file a tax form on every individual involved to show how much money they made as a salary for running the foundation. Even if no one took a salary. Most non profit orgs. have administrations to make things work and they are allowed to make a living at keeping it operating. For that reason, the tax forms are required. My guess is you're operating as non profit, but you're not registered with the government as such.

I still think that getting money involved on a per-player basis is a bad idea. I don't think it's okay just because the PDGA does it (no, that's not criticism, please don't ban me for life). Even a per-event contribution is a bad idea to start with. Money should be left out of scheduling.

this really isn't going to go anywhere if we don't get organized. let's focus on that first, then we'll have th structure needed to do everything else.

The club is registered as a 501.C-3 Not for Profit. I am not directly involved as an officer, but know the org was founded that way. I need to get in contact with the treasurer because we plan to use this as the charity for a couple course fund raiser events next year (the chartered purpose of the club).

Again I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like you're saying you founded a non-profit org. to contribute to a "charity" you also founded.?????
If this is legal I'm gonna be rich very soon. ;)

I was under the impression that the non-profit org was the charity. I think the stated mission of the org is the installation and improvement of disc golf courses in DFW.

wow, has it really been 5 years sense the TD conference???

Man, how time flies.

We spent a long time in that room discussing what we wanted to see in Texas (from what I remember)

The main people I remember who showed up were some of the main people involved at the time, but it was not even 20% of the TD's that ran tournaments that year. Think about it, those in Austin or Houston had to drive several hours to attend.

the Gordon won the handicap tournament :D

I think it was gimp that had one of the best ideas and tried to get Texas up to qualifiers and the finals were the State Championships in Houston (stolen from Carrollton I might add, although they were run by Houck and were not held for a few years before Houston started there's up) :D

He tried to get TD's to sign up to collect $2 per player and contribute to state, we tried to work out a deal for the Carrollton Open to be a part of it but I can't remember what happened (Carrollton Open was held after States back then) I think Gimp gave up after that year, too many tournaments, not enough profit to pay the bills (maceman syndrome)

Anyways, I am game on another TD summit this winter, or summer to work on next years schedule. My only request, remember that the Carrollton Opens numbers were skewed by IKE. (I still had a great payout, but anyone want to buy some plastic )

I like the idea of players points for playing Texas tournaments. have a Nominal fee per player for a member tournament to be a part of the series, and hold an awards banquet/tournament at the first of the next year to give out the prizes.

The fee could be as low as 25 cents, or as much as $1.

There are several ways to figure out points, either like the PDGA does it, or have each tournament worth X amount of points and you get your share based on those points.

You could even give double points for B, and triple for A tier tournament like the PDGA.

What ever, I am game. Sense I have not even played a PDGA tournament in nearly 2 years, I really don't care. Right now I could not even play 2 round in one day.

I think Larry Kruse took the minutes for the meeting, and I have the 1st place plaque from the tournament.

It was the best competitive round I have ever had at the Lake. That course normally treats me very badly in tournament play.

Okay, so the org. IS the charity, then the events you run to drum up money are a part of the charity. Every mini and every tournament you and your people run are an official part of the charity approved by your local and federal government. Let's just declare that the entire PDGA is a charity working towards bringing disc golf to the needy. I know that GWB and his rePub. buddies made loopholes every where they could to hide their greedy ways of doing business, but I'm not sure that we can just declare ourselves a charity and with a signature acquire the power to shift monies as we please without documentation such as receipts, iventory, and payroll information. I'm not saying you're not acting in a way that you believe to be the proper legal way. I just question the entire picture and the grasp you may have of it. This just doesn't seem to click to me. Of course, it's been 19 years since I pursued all the answers and no doubt things have changed, but have they really changed that much?

Let's just declare that the entire PDGA is a charity working towards bringing disc golf to the needy.


The PDGA is a registered 501.C-6 charity (or was the last time I checked).

I am not the accountant for the club, neither am I an officer, but I do know that it has been established as a recognized charitable organization capable of accepting charitable donations. There is of course a lot of administrative overhead that goes along with that designation.

Ok so things have changed and the PDGA is a charity??? So our government feels that a ratings system is a reasonable way to make our charitable contributions grow and has no qualms about paying Chuck and his partner enough to make a living. Your patting yourself on the back because your rating is higher than so and so's and this is the way to benefit the needy? This is admittedly all over my head. Building a complex in Georgia is going to help clothe the children in the slums????
What is the charitable contributions made by us, the PDGA, and where do we list them? How much have we given each year and to whom for what? Shouldn't this be public information?

The PGA does qualify as a contributor to charities. If you watch any given tournament, they will tell you what charity benefitted from the money and how much it was. It usually consists of the entire gate (tickets sold) plus some of the sponsor's money. The players are paid by the rest of the sponsor's money and the TV network that paid for the right to broadcast it. They're paid by the advertisers. Yes, most of the money goes to the players and the people that put the event on, but still the charities recieve considerable amounts of money from each event. What do we do that even comes close to this?? I'm not trying to be satirical. It's a legitamate question.

What is the charitable contributions made by us, the PDGA, and where do we list them? How much have we given each year and to whom for what? Shouldn't this be public information?



No, the PDGA is the charity not the contributor.

If you read IRS Pub 557, there is no mention of helping the needy in most of the types of tax exempt organizations. It is just the most well known are either religious or working to help the needy.

Though the restrictions on 501(c)(3) orgs for amateur athletic sports are tough for us to qualify for. Maybe I do need to look over the paperwork before I move forward with this.

I disagree with James. The way to make a statewide event work is money. The issue is where do you get said money? Here is one possible format:

Big event with big payout as final Texas event of the year. Everyone, including non-Texans would want to play said event because it has a payout similar to that of a World event. To qualify you have to play the equivalent of 6 C tiers in Texas where 2 C tiers = one B tier and 2 B tiers = one A tier, i.e. Two A tiers, 4 B tiers or any equivalent amount of play qualifies you for the "Big" event.

First, this structure pushes players into other events thus increasing overall play. Second, it brings out of state players into state events to qualify for the big event. To make it work you have to have a big enough payout in the final to make it worthwhile for players to play other events. You can do this with either a dedicated fund raiser for the big event or by charging smaller events to be qualifiers.

Obviously, you need buy in to get something like this to work. James will argue you can't get enough buy in to make it work at this time.

Simple enough - to get it to work the first time you have to have donations the first year such that local TDs see the value going forward. If you have 20 people donate $500 a piece you are set. Let Gary organize the big event and the choosing of locale, and money organization (if anyone out there doesn't think Gary is honest they can't read).

So - I'll start, I'll commit $500 to such an event to be run in 2010, giving a year for Gary to get organized and structure. Any other chickens out there?

post deleted. Dam technology

Disagree with me on what????????

To be clear, my idea, fleshed out in an earler post was as follows:

Just get big regional tournaments spaced out properly. I don't care if these tourneys have money added or not. Just be on two good courses.

These are not high hurdles.

On top of that, I said it was a possible first step to a statewide series, but that was not my goal. I just want a sensible schedule, and then regional autonomy to build towards big events and to serve player's tourney desires.


I have nothing against a statewide series. In fact I would support it. I just know a lot of the specific people involved, and I know people in general, and it doesn't suprise me that this idea has died on the vine many times. So, we have an idea that has died numerous times. The logical next step is to rinse and repeat.

Geronimo!!!!

(insert screeching brake sound here)

Hang on...I think were starting to go in too many different directions...again. I put the $12,000 number up there only to demonstrate that its possible for Texas to accumulate funds...but I dont think now is the time to pool money for something bigger. Got to get the foundation set (scheduling/event infrastructure) first.

Tourneys that fit James' idea (which I like):

West Texas - BAB?, ??? (I don't know enough about this area to name another qualified tourney.)
DFW - VPO, Cedar Hill
CenTex - WACO
Austin - HOTT Final, Outlaws?
SA - LOSO
Houston - States
East Texas - PWO
Third Coast - CCO

Not sure about BAB being on 2 courses and Outlaws qualifies if WilCo is used.

Now...spacing them out, using current/historical positions...
Jan -
Feb - Cedar Hill (The old Big Show spot)
Mar -
Apr - States
May - WTex #2?
Jun - WACO
Jul - BAB / LOSO
Aug - none
Sep - Outlaws
Oct - CCO
Nov - VPO / HOTT
Dec - PWO

Two overlaps, July and November.

Getting these 11 TDs onboard will be the key. Especially the ones running the A-tiers, since they automatically go over Gary's head for scheduling.

how about Houston letting go of states

A floating states would be the perfect incentive for regions to work together

A floating states would be the perfect incentive for regions to work together



I like that idea.

I think there is some Shakespeare quote having do with what is in a name, but I can't remember. ;)

For the life of me, why do y'all care about that name "Texas States"? The final could simply be called the Texas State Tour Final or something else.

Nice Job Tony: a visual of a meaningful schedule that might be a precursor to a tour.

I want to say that some of the best tourneys I played last year weren't called Texas States. A name is meaningless, and not worth a seconds worth of fight in my opinion.

So Vinnie, your statement can be restated to say "A Floating Texas Tour Final would be a perfect incentive for regions to work together" and it would also make sense.

how about Houston letting go of states



And thanks for coming out....we'll try this whole thing again in 5 years....


Vinnie, it ain't happening. You know that. I know that. The people who have the power to make that decision know that.

A floating states would be the perfect incentive for regions to work together




How many balloons would that take? :o

A different name is fine.........And Texas States can keep falling....It would make yet another good C tier ran in Houston :(

So Vinnie, your statement can be restated to say "A Floating Texas Tour Final would be a perfect incentive for regions to work together" and it would also make sense.



Agreed.

Having, at various times, argued for both sides of that battle, I've determined that States is just another A-tier and really not worth worrying over the name. That said, the Powers-that-Be are attached to it and until they decided differently, it's pointless to discuss it.

To me, the State Champion is crowned like NASCAR or the PGA crowns their champions. The best player after the season (based on points or money). The TxDGC is our version of Daytona or the US Open.

Republic of Texas National Championships

Disagree with me on what????????

To be clear, my idea, fleshed out in an earler post was as follows:

Just get big regional tournaments spaced out properly. I don't care if these tourneys have money added or not. Just be on two good courses.

These are not high hurdles.

On top of that, I said it was a possible first step to a statewide series, but that was not my goal. I just want a sensible schedule, and then regional autonomy to build towards big events and to serve player's tourney desires.


I have nothing against a statewide series. In fact I would support it. I just know a lot of the specific people involved, and I know people in general, and it doesn't suprise me that this idea has died on the vine many times. So, we have an idea that has died numerous times. The logical next step is to rinse and repeat.

Geronimo!!!!



It's a matter of principal, if I post on a thread that James is posting on I have to say I disagree with him. Actually, I misunderstood your position to be no statewide event and a focus on regional events/series only. A heartfelt apology.

The other W Texas event would be the Discrazy Shootout in Amarillo....and, its already in May. 2 courses....1 being the only true Gold level course in Texas. For most Texans, this is quite a trip..5-6 hours from DFW; 10-12 hrs from houston, austin, SA; 12-15 hrs. from third coast. However, it does get the benefit of drawing from New Mexico, OK, Colorado, Kansas, etc. It is THE event for W. Tx. BAB being the other.

Looks like we got a good preliminary list of the bigger Texas events. Whats next?

Let me be clear on one thing, I believe that one big event with enough money in it could be used to drive an overall structure on the state; whether it be James' regional organization or some other. If you have a big event with enough money you can persuade the regions and TDs to play along and to support a better structure. By setting up a large event with adequate payout, you make it in Texas TDs best interests to play ball. It is the simplest way to get a structure going on the state. As James has pointed out, even at the regional level, getting TDs to play along with something that is obviously in their best interests is tough. By setting up a large payout event that everyone wants to play in, you can say "look, here's what we can do for you, players have to play in your event to qualify for this big event, what you have to give in return is - fit your event into a regional structure that by the way, supports disc golf in the state as a whole."

Is that easier to accomplish than what James is proposing? Don't know, but James' assertion that nothing is happening is dead on. This isn't the first time that James has made this proposal, so it isn't just the idea of a Statewide structure that is being rejected, so is James' idea up to this point.

Republic of Texas National Championships



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/3103416671_b02cfbfb1a.jpg?v=0

the beginnings of a logo/stamp

What would the winner of the Open Division need to win to make it worthwhile and I can work back to a total purse requirement and then a dollar amount needed for the MPO division. Then decide how many divisions to we need to have in the event? I'm thinking a $5K winner at least.

That's a purse of around $35K
70 people at $500
350 at 100
1750 at $20

$35k is a full course with two concrete pads and multiple pin locations on every hole. It even covers some tree clearing and ground work.

Though the first year could probably get by a lot cheaper since no one would know about it. 15 players paying 7 spots only takes $16,750ish.

Do you plan on making the final open to anyone anywhere to come in here and take down the money? If so, what is the point of Texans contributing to a building purse of it's own, keeping our money closer to home, only to have it go to Wisconsin, or Oregon, or etc. in one lump sum?
If you do a points system to qualify for winning an entry or to win a larger percentage of the purse than an out of state player without the points, you will only segregate us from the rest of the country.
The suggestion of calling it the Republic of Texas Championship says a lot more about us than can be seen on the surface. I can see that I'm not going to be able to be a part of this, so I'll just say I still think highly of all of you and good luck.

The suggestion of calling it the Republic of Texas Championship says a lot more about us than can be seen on the surface



Skip, while I have the utmost respect for you, I have to totally disagree with this statement. What's in a name? I live in White Settlement. Does that mean everyone here is white or racist? Of course it doesn't! I could care less what it's named.
As to playing a set of designated qualifiers and "segregating" us from the rest of the country, what's the difference between that and the segregation of an invitation only tourney? Honest question not trying to be rude.
And finally, to the general question. Coming from the common man, this sounds really exciting ya'll. I'm sure if you had enough qualifiers you would get excellent qualifying turnout for a final. But honestly, settling for a schedule now(2010) would be great. As it is you get about 3 months warning max on some of these tourneys unless you know about them from the year before.

Everything in Texas should be on my calendar.
Every event that I received full information on since 2002 is in the history section.
I will have the rest of the year on my calendar this week. I'm still waiting on confirmation of a few April events and TD information for one March event.

There are some events later in the year that I still need confirmation on the dates or TDs, but I normally list those as pending until I get confirmation.

Republic of Texas National Championships



That was a joke people...lighten up Francis :o

Texas States belongs in Houston

V will need to come up with a new name

Mitch did you get the file opened?

I like the Lone Star Chanpionships :D.....but I don't think we will get buy in on a series this year. But the regional division and IDing regional reps would be the first goal.

I like Lone Star DGC.

Everyone please remember.....we're just brainstorming here. Its kind of disheartning to see folks already not wanting to be apart of this...when we're only coming up with ideas to this point :confused: Dont shut out the ideas just yet...

Have faith!

I started designing a proposal (business form) during the Holidays and have shared with a few key people for their input. I will consolidate and refine. I am working with Gary to distribute the end result to the folks of Texas.
I am hoping the regions will nominate their respected rep and the rep will be able to work with the TD in their region to move to money funded by qualified player end event. It would be great if the series can get off the ground this year. But I foresee next year....maybe the region reps can coordinate some pilot events to refine a possible year end event

Shouldnt all of this cater toward your market ie the disc golfer and why is it up to them(seeing that most of them will not play in a final just in a qualifier or two) pay an extra 2,3 or 5 dollars. IMO, which I am sure most TDs wont like, is that it should all come from sponsors. Meaning more leg work to make it happen. Until the prize for winning a tournament becomes a substantual amount, DGers wont be happy with anything the PDGA does for them. You could break away from them all you want, because it will still end up the same way. Charging more and getting less never works. Look at our current economy. Why is it that we live in a coorparate america, but we dont have any coorparate sponsors??? If you all are looking to make a BIGGER final, why not make the tournaments we already have bigger. What is a final really going to do besides make other tournaments a bust. If everyone would just improve on what they are doing though sponsorships maybe more people will be able to play your tournaments, because they pay enough to carry them to the next. Just my opinion in a sea of opinions. Just remember Dec. 21, 2012 is three years away!!!

Is this in addition to or instead of another series? If you look at the next few weeks in texas, there is a tournament almost every weekend from now through the end of march. That may be a little oversaturated. Maybe that's just my view from a Houstonian that travels to support as many regional tourneys as I can. I know that up to $50 in gas and anywhere from 20-80 bux for me and my wife's entry fees, plus food etc. It isn't feasible to play all of these. If the goal is to replace some of the existing series, then okay, but if it's in addition, I don't think that would be in the best interest. There is plenty to play in already. We are lucky enough to have a large amount of active TD's in the greater TX area. And just to make it extremely clear: Thank you Team Justice, my wife and I played a large amount of the Hott series last year and had a great time seeing how bigger tourney's should be run, Vinnie, thanks for TWC, there is no better place to have an all womens tourney, we will be there again this year, Third Coast keep on running great tourneys as well, we are hoping to make more of your's this year. And Dallas, keep those courses in as good a shape as they were last year, Cedar hill was one of my favorites w/ Dyn. Discs, Wow... to many to thank. Everyone that I have mentioned above, big thanks. My wife and I have stepped up in Houston and are trying to help as much as we can with our local Birdshot Series and take everything good that we've observed from the larger more established series.
Sorry that was long winded, but as you can see there is a lot of disc golf in the Houston/Austin/College Station/San Antonio/DFW area.

The number 1 mission for those who want bigger purses should be to focus on how to get spectators at events and online - first at no charge but eventually those who are willing to pay to watch. Not just in Texas but everywhere. It makes little sense to waste significant time and resources to solicit sponsors and media coverage when you have little to "sell" them which is eyeballs watching to see their message and "stars" with little following outside the sport's insiders. Until this happens, as BYoung points out, the majority of any purses in these events are going to be built on the wallets of existing players.

The word series is throwing folks off. I am thinking existing events supporting a new or even existing event repersetning the state as a whole. And some of these lower attended c tier events become one day un-sanctioned events supporting a higher event either in their region or to the state highlighted event. We DON�T need 80 + �sanctioned� and no I SUPPORT THE P.D.G.A. But growth of disc golf in Texas comes first for me and should for everyone else in this state. Please keep the thread rolling. It is helpful to hear opinions and its spreading the subject.
I wish we had big sponsors but we have nothing to offer big non disc golf sponsors. We have to have spectators. In the ball golf world weekend golfers are the spectators filling the sponsor pockets. So we need to find that catalyst. IMO this conversation is a stepping stone to identify that catalyst.

Rolling rolling rolling

I really, really question the idea that the if there is a series, that it must end in some big money event, or that it would be judged by money at all. Once everyone starts focusing solely on money and trying to build around that, bad things happen or more likely, the process breaks down.

Each region will have the chance to pool their efforts into creating a big event. Whether that region defines their big regional event by money, or by other metrics should be up to them. I know I could easily focus my small effort to help local clubs and TDs in their efforts to throw quality regional events. That is my self-interest at work. I personally could care less about whether the winner of the "Lone Star Series Final" gets good coin or not, but I would certainly be attracted by a big, well run final on great courses.

It takes 96 tournaments a year in Texas to keep everyone from having to drive over 100miles. Texas is big and can hold that many, besides that is just sanctioned tournaments and waht about all the unsanctioned tournaments that people play. But, I know if you unsanction the tournaments it will only drop the attendance and raise less money for any final that it is contributing to. Take the latest Maceman PIO, not sanctioned and only 51 compared to over 90 last year substained for two days. The attendance is affected by the sanctioning and is beneficial. What we need is a Texas DG reality show to bring attention to DG and create a fan base. The only problem is finding some DGers that the fans would actually like and would make it interesting enough for TV. Anyone know about the new DG game for the Wii and as to how much the PDGA makes off of it, if any. That is selling dg and I hope they make something. I know the PGA or the NFL wouldnt allow a game to be made unless it benifited them. Why wouldnt Nintendo throw some of that money they profited off of DG to a sponsorship. Anyone look good in a suit???

Hey, I run one of the largest payout (and attendance) B-Tier tournaments in Texas. In fact I have had better payouts than several of the A-tier tournaments in Texas. I mean, how many tournaments have paid there Pro players 200% of entry fee???

I want to be included on that list. :mad:

(just please don't look at 2008, Ike kind of ran a few people off)
________________________________________________

Anyways, I am up for any Lone Star Championship.

Here are my resolutions that I will put up to a vote.

1 - The Lone Star (Republic of Texas National championship) Championship should be non profit. In other words, it should pay out as much as comes in. Any monies left over should be divided back to the qualifying tournaments .

2 - With that said, I have no problem with paying a TD and paying people who come up with sponsorships for the tournament. (A finders fee per se) - The reason the Carrollton Open has been so successful is that I roll every dime back into the tournament in payouts, ace pots and CTP's.

Now with that last statement being made, there is an advantage of having the tournament be run for a profit. You can have TD's made bids like the PDGA does with Worlds.

3 - We should set this up with each TD that wants to participate getting one vote per tournament or 1 vote per tier (1 for C or NON PDGA, 2 vote for B, 3 votes for A) And set up a membership organization to figure this stuff out.

We can keep using this board, or Gary can set up a simple board on LSDGA.com and we can argue there.

I found that a face to face meeting works best. Maybe have each region hold a meeting somewhere, then elect 2 people from each area to meet in a central location like Waco/Temple area to hash out the particulars.

Or you can have preliminary ideas hashed out in each area, then put them all up to a vote for participating TD's.

I also think that each TD should contribute cash (like $100 each) for voting rights. The cash would then be deducted from the amount owed from there tournament.

Anyways, those are just a few ideas off the top of my head. I want to be involved in any discussion and will attempt to make any meetings scheduled in the DFW area. (sorry, I can't afford to go out of town)

BTW, I really like "Republic of Texas National Championships" But "Lone Star Disc Golf Alliance Championships" works for me too.

When you say you were joking when you say "Repulic of Texas", you are admitting that the coincidence of radical right wingers (Pizza Guy and the like) wanting Texas to secceed from the USA is very much like your wanting to seperate our competition from the rest of the PDGA competition.
Why is it so important to alienate ourselves from everywhere else? You probably want to deny you're doing that, but there's no denying that only Texans are to participte in deciding, benefitting, and playing. If you're willing to admit that you want to encourage all of America to break down into smaller factions and take care of yourselves, then what is the benefit really to our sport? You definately would lose your precious ratings on a world wide scale. I fail to see the good in this. The funding would only be another tax on us in one way or another. I hate to agree with Chuck as much as he with me, but he's right that further advancement will require ticket sales of some form from galleries that want to watch the best players in the world play. This idea of yours says you don't want the best in the world coming here to participate. In the PGA, Tiger Woods and many others are paid to make appearences at various venues. They are not asked to sacrifice anything to play as you would have Barry or Avery do to come play in your tour.
You all seem very enthusiastic about this path you want to take, but there will be some problems. I hope you don't decide to ignore them just because they get in your way. Sometimes the sign says "Stop".

I think Skip is right in that the players cannot be expected to carry this burden in addition to the other player fees they are already carrying. Each tour in the state takes out a piece for their final, and each sanctioned event (both PDGA and SN) take out their piece. taking yet another small fee from the pie doesn't leave much for the players.

Though the scheduling assistance would be appreciated.

Fact is, there will never be galleries like ball golf.

Fact is, disc golf will never get the kind of sponsorship that ball golf gets.

Fact is, we have to support ourselves.

and another fact you are overlooking.

Fact is, very few players travel, much less travel to Texas.

Sure I have managed to get a few traveling Pros to come to Carrollton. The fact is, they only did so because they were on the way to a larger National tournament, not because of my payout.

Even the VPO and Texas States has had a hard time getting Pro's to come to Texas. Shoot, I seem to remember that States didn't have anyone outside of a 5 hour drive a few years ago.

I realized that I had to concentrate on local participation and not worry about catering to the traveling disc golfer.

ticket sales are the worst possible idea for public parks. i've said this before and still believe it: the WORST thing possible for any given park is to have a 10,000 disc golf gallery decend on it for a weekend. most parks would be irreperably damaged by that. they simply are not built for that volume. insufficient infrastruture (parking, restrooms, etc), insufficient mgmt (crowd control, emergency services, etc). it wont work. if crowds are what we want we need a venue that will support those crowds.

we'd be better crafting compelling TV. one doesnt need an overflowing throng of spectators top make compelling TV, even for live events. check out spelling bees and chess matches. or bowling for that matter.

as far as a texas series, go for it. james is right tho, nothing will come from trying to force everyone to follow suit. get a good idea, and start it. we do not need unanimity to start. we need one person to stand up and say "this is what i'm doing. anyone who wants in can come join in."

if we get 10 people who start their own thing, so what? it'll work out quickly in the market. but i'd caution against getting complete agreement. its too hard to achieve, and has a very limiting effect at tghe time we need MORE ideas, not fewer.

Fact is, very few players travel, much less travel to Texas.

Sure I have managed to get a few traveling Pros to come to Carrollton. The fact is, they only did so because they were on the way to a larger National tournament, not because of my payout.



I've been following this thread on and off but had a comment on this point. Perhaps Texas should concentrate on having its major events between November and March. It is the best time of the year weather wise and most people can't play. You may increase travel (like the Memorial) if the payouts are fat and weather is nice.

A very interesting thread indeed. I couldn't resist adding my 2 cents in.

- the key to any series IMHO is that each TD does NOT have to contribute money to a centralist event. We have to stop playing for each other's money. Perhaps it is merchandising (MDGO does this very well), perhaps it is a key Texas sponsor support of each series event (Shiner Bock, etc.), but I am so sick of $2-$10 of my entry fee going to support another event. Get creative here, like calenders, deck of cards, etc. We in Texas have a good audience of disc golf consumers that will help raise $$$

- spread the wealth, and treat all as equals. Like it or not, there are distinct personalities amongst the regions in Texas, and they don't always play well together. We need to get over this.

- name it whatever you want but Texas States. Get over it, and move on. We've beat this horse to death. There have been some cool names mentioned here, but don't ever bring this subject up again in this thread.

- make it a requirement to provide volunteers to the series to be part of the series, not money. This is what MDGO did for quite a while, although I know it was a point of contention. It takes more to provide volunteers than it does to raise money. Honestly, they are much more valuable. If you can't provide volunteers, you can't participate.

- regions need to speak with one voice. local clubs are generally that voice. Representative disc golf government. We have a mixture of clubs, TDs, private enterprises, etc. all wanting to be a part of this. Too many voices, leading to a unbalanced voice from certain regions. This will make or break this enterprise.

- past history and capabilities have to be a pre-requisite to participate. There have been some real failures out there of delivering on promises, from the C tier all the way up to A-tier. There have to be consequences to this, ie no this or that group can not be a participant this year until they have run multiple A tier events, have a strong reputation as a disc golf event, etc.

As I see it, the ball is in Gary's court, and nobody else's. A democratic regional Texas disc govt IMO must be set up, and monthly teleconferences held with ONLY those duly elected representatives, who then can spread the info to their constituents. There has to be a "head" who resolves disputes and has the final say, and Gary is the logical choice as elected PDGA Texas rep. Perhaps more people will run for this spot based on getting the favored leadership position in this new regional disc golf org.

I would propose that Houston deserves (1) seat at this table, and I would propose that HFDS would be responsible for determining who that representative would be. Other regions who have proven themselves; how their representative is chosen will be an interesting discussion.

You might not like it, but I would propose the following

- Houston
- Austin
- Round Rock
- San Antonio
- Dallas
- Fort Worth
- Waco
- Lubbock
- Gulf Coast (Corpus/Victoria)
- East Coast (Port Arthur/Nacogdoches)
That is 10 reps plus 1 head. Almost too many to manage really.

- hold an open summit for discussion and input from the public at large during the off-season. Even consider invited guests at teleconferences. The key IMHO is one vote to one region.

Ok, enough rambling. Chew on this for a while

Nez
been there . . . done that

You might not like it, but I would propose the following

- Houston
- Austin
- Round Rock
- San Antonio
- Dallas
- Fort Worth
- Waco
- Lubbock
- Gulf Coast (Corpus/Victoria)
- East Coast (Port Arthur/Nacogdoches)
That is 10 reps plus 1 head. Almost too many to manage really.

- hold an open summit for discussion and input from the public at large during the off-season. Even consider invited guests at teleconferences. The key IMHO is one vote to one region.



Some good ideas, but if you drew a line down the center of Texas only Lubbock would represent the entire western part. What about Abilene, San Angelo, Big Spring, Amarillo, Odessa, and Ft. Stockton?? All of which are apart of Texas DG and should have representation.

I also think since Texas is bigger, it should have bigger baskets. That is the only thing that I could think of to help my putting.LOL

A lot of points there Nez.

I want the Texas States name.

I don't care about the name, just had to respond to being told not to ever bring it up again.

The current push is for scheduling reps, not governing reps. 10 is too many, and their areas would be too small to schedule effectively. I see 4 and listed them earlier.

If this takes off, the re-design of the LSDGA site will have pages for each region for the regional coordinator to use as they see fit. I don't think I want to host a forum on the site, but newsletters are a good thing. Each coordinator will have administrative privileges over their section of the site.

I don't know where any volunteers would go right now, but agree that asking for money isn't the best approach.

lol. Gary, you're killing me!

we need to separate the issue of scheduling problems with a Texas series. Perhaps you need 4 scheduling reps, but you can't get away with that representation to deal with a Texas Series. Maybe this is part of the problem - we need to separate the issues and deal with them independently. However if you had a 10-12 man committee meeting monthly by teleconference (more like 50% attendence at any one meeting), you could easily get scheduling issues addressed early and often once you get on a roll. Run it like any club meeting, with a quorum for binding votes, assign key positions (treasurer, etc.), and this group could get a LOT done in a short amount of time. Sure there will be grumbling, but a system would be in place to answer a vast majority of these issues in a hurry.

In my humble opinion (and only mine), with all due respect to W. Texas, your growth is impressive. However it is time to step to the plate and hold multiple A-tier quality events with the ammenities and added cash. Do that more than once, and take a seat at the table. Otherwise, lobby your *** off to the other reps.

everything else is gravy - websites, newsletters, etc. Lets get to the meat in the first year - we can deal with the gravy later. . .

just my humble opinion...

TV is a great idea, Pat. When I stated "some form of ticket sales" it was implied towards a gallery. This is generally thought of as people on the course watching play, but could very well be people watching play from their homes. Money from advertising would be an excellant resourse if we could find a way to tap into it. I've never been under the delusion that people on the course was going to work well. It's been tried by selling raffle tickets that required participation to win, and that didn't work well. Being that most courses are in public parks it is hard to charge citizens to enter the park. The tv idea is definately worth pursueing.

I dont think W. Texas would have a problem with 1 rep. I know you probably named Lubbock becuase they have had the longest running sancitioned event out here, but the other DG scences in our area are at least as capable as Lubbock has been. Regardless, I think 1 rep. for W Texas is fine for now. Whatever city it originates from wont matter too much. I feel like for the most part that W Texas TD's/clubs get along with each other pretty well.

I would also say W. Texas is stepping up to the plate. Lubbock attendance was down this year, but last year had 90+ with big added cash and amenities. Discrazy Shootout has had 100+ for 2 years with big added cash and amenities. Read Jay Readings 2008 review in FDM #5. Discrazy Shootout will be an A-Tier this year. San Angelo is making their event a B-Tier this year and is probably adding a top notch course in the near future. Abilene will be adding a top notch course within the next few years and Big Spring has a solid 27 hole course...with plans to add another 9 holes.

I'm NOT trying to get into a war of words Nez and I can understand where your coming from. We're spread out and a long ways a way from everybody. Everyone might not have an accurate perception of whats going on out here, but its at a higher level than most people realize. I know your opinions were not intended negativly. Just defending our area and taking pride in what we're doing :D

I agree that there are 2 issues here: scheduling and a series/final. I'm not sure that we can do both at the same time...if we can, great. If not, the schedule is first. I guess the thing I really DONT want to have happen is trying to accomplish both goals and doing too much at once (ala TD meeting circa 2003).

- spread the wealth, and treat all as equals. Like it or not, there are distinct personalities amongst the regions in Texas, and they don't always play well together. We need to get over this.

- name it whatever you want but Texas States. Get over it, and move on. We've beat this horse to death. There have been some cool names mentioned here, but don't ever bring this subject up again in this thread.




Aren't these two statemetns like "The Pot calling the Kettle Black"

Yes, we need to separate the two topics of discussion into a representative scheduling group, and a potential Texas series topic. I don't want the bickering on either to kill both. We do need to move forward with something. In the past I traveled enough to cover most of the state, but times are tough now and it is difficult to keep up with how things are going all over the state.

I am particularly interested in the scheduling side. The series project is being capably led by others.

I am very impressed with the development of things in West Texas over the last few years. They have been working together and upgrading their events all across the region. new courses are going in and are in the planning stages. Things are looking up and they are an important part of the future of Disc Golf in Texas.

I've been thinking....how do we get all this to take off?

Im only talking about the scheduling part of this btw. The discussions and interest on this thread have been positive. At what point do we "go forward"?

Now, the questions become "Who votes for a representative from each region?" and "What defines those regions?".

Do the players get involved, or do the TDs in each region nominate and vote for their coordinator?

How many regions should there be? I'd like to see each region scheduling around 20 events each. Enough to keep them busy, but not too much to handle.

I think this is making it more complex than it needs to be. I would hate to see us getting bogged down on this and avoiding a central goal: to provide a sensible schedule for the biggies.

One scenario I see is as follows: Gary sets the biggie schedule (I realize this is a gigantic subprocess in itself), sends it into the PDGA and tells them that no Texas dates are to be approved on these dates without his "permission." Is that doable?

After that Gary can also tell the PDGA that all other dates in Texas are free and he has no objections to their approval.

Now, this creates a role/need for an area scheduler/secretary/repository. This individual's main tasks are as follows

Task 1. Communicate to folks in thaeir area that certain dates are set aside, and PDGA events cannot be shceduled on those dates (the biggie dates); and

Task 2. Be the local scheduler which means:
a. Trying to prevent/reduce conflicts between TDs in their area; and
b. Trying to reduce/minimize conflicts between TDs in their area and TDs in neighboring areas. This is a voluntary process by all involved. It depends on the goodwill and cooperation of all involved. Much as the situation is today: if people cooperate, conflicts are minimized; if they don't, chaos rules.

I see the following areas, grouped by association. meaning, thse associations have a natural need to talk and cooperate. Just my opinion, no one get offended.

Third Coast
Live Oak/SA, or Live Oak as one area and SA as another ;)
Austin (includes RR, Waterloo, and hopefull San Marcos area)
Temple/Waco

Houston
Third Coast
East Texas

DFW

West Texas

Obviously, the more communication, the better and these associations may be way off base. However, I just don't want progress to be hampered by quarreling over exact regional boundaries and associations; it really isn't that critical.

Oh, but it is when tempers flair and feelings get hurt because coordinator 1 schedules something in an area coordinator 2 thinks they control. Boundaries need to be clearly defined and all events along the borders probably need input from both coordinators. Which could go to having one coordinator for each major market (Austin/SA, DFW, Houston, and West Texas) and requiring all events outside of those areas involve two coordinators.

Kind of makes it tough on the TDs that way.

Create a map of the state with a link on the course for the coordinator responsible for that course?

I still suggest 4, The Hill Country, The Coast, The Northeast, and West Texas.

Border courses like Waco, Nacogdoches, College Station, and Wichita Falls would need to involve two people.

I don't think the PDGA will allow me to block off any dates before the NT and A-Tier dates are put on the calendar.

I don't think the PDGA will allow me to block off any dates before the NT and A-Tier dates are put on the calendar.



Give the PDGA a call....and you set the guide lines with the PDGA. The PDGA will allow ALL events because it is more money for them.
TD's can run all the events that want.....but instead of sanctioning every event in Texas. The TD's could opt to pay out 100%, SN qualify, or raise money to a higher event.

It see this tending towards the confusion and dissatisfaction we are trying to address. In my mind there are some facts that TDs need to accept:

There are boatlaods of disc golfers in the state, and a lot of TDs who want to throw tourneys. In short, there is a lot of competition. We are proposing a system that eliminates competition for certain dates, that is all!!!!!!!!! After that, there are no guarantees of protection, only the willingness of others within, and outside your area to cooperate.

[atually, this is close to what occurs now, so most TDs already understand this]

So, sure there is a benefit to be gained by having local coordinators and a community who cooperates. I hope it functions that way as it is best for all, but it might not function perfectly and there might be some bruised egos from TDs, but I maintain that the alternative is worse: mediocre tourneys, or great tourneys already filled mainly by regional folks, prevent other regions from scheduling tourneys. That protection should be reserved exclusively for big events.

As to the PDGA and NTs and A tiers. If that is really a holdup and the PDGA won't support the state in blocking off dates, then we need to reconsider this relationship. I can't imagine why they even care; we are not asking for them to juggle out-of-state NTs and A-tiers around us. All we are asking is to not sanction any Texas events on those dates. That shouldn't be a problem because presumably, they won't sanction any events until their main schedule is finished. Does that make sense? We are not asking to schedule events before the NTs are scheduled, we are simply asking them to not accept any Texas events on those dates, without Gary's explicit permission. Their goal and our goal do not conflict.

Later on, our goals might conflict. In the rare chance that one of our dates happens to conflict with an A-tier or NT in a neighboring state, we can deal with it by going unsanctioned (if the host wants), trying to get a waiver from the PDGA, trying to reschedule if possible, or switching our hosts to avoid the PDGA constraints. For example, if the A-tier was in OK, and our event was in DFW, we might be able to flip DFW for central Texas, where the PDGA mileage restrictions do not apply.

The voting/appointing should be between the TD's/lead organizers. I would think those folks would be the best capable to organize its area courses/events. Would there be more than one from each of the 4 proposed regions that would want to be a regional scheduler?

No matter how many reps there are, I think W. Texas would be one region.....and probably the easiest to define. Start in Seymour (just SW of Wichita Falls) and draw a line through Abilene then to San Angelo. Brady has a new course and they have expressed interest in running future events (not sure when) and Wichita Falls is closer to DFW area....but we could certainly work with them on schedules, whatever region they would fall.

Speaking of Seymour, they have a fantastic little course designed for Intermedeate skill level and below (Think it would qualify as a Red level course in design terms) It was designed by John Houck and it would be a great place to run a beginners only tournament. If anyone is near that area I would encourage everyone to stop through and check it out (even advanced or pro players)

Not sure I understand the meaning of reserving dates in Texas if we are not doing it before the PDGA does their schedule. If we are blocking dates before they do their schedule, we are in effect causing the PDGA to juggle dates outside of Texas because they all interact. Just as one date moving inside Texas impacts several events that in turn effect several other events and...

I am talking about reserving dates for Texas scheduling only. The date of reciept by the PDGA shouldn't matter to the PDGA because it has no bearing on them setting their schedule. In other words, we are not asking them to consider our schedule, or try to work their schedule around ours; we are simply saying "Do not shcedule any other Texas events on this date without the state coordinator's approval." I don't know why they would oppose such a request.

The interaction between the NT schedule and Texas' schedule is nil. The interaction between the national A-tier schedule (is there really such a concept?) and Texas' schedule is dam near nil, and in the off chance that there is a conflict, it can be worked out as I described in my earlier post.

Beyond that, what real conflicts are there? Is the DFW constrained by approval of some tourney in OK? Is a tourney in Houston constrained by a tourney in Baton Rouge? Just what are these conflicts?

The PDGA is trying to fit in A-Tiers and NTs all around the country to minimize conflicts and meet the TDs choice for a date. They need the flexibility.

I have tried several times to set the large A & B-Tiers apart with no conflicts then use the weeks in between for multiple C-Tier events, but new events come in or clubs swap their B & C tier dates to get better weekends. Unless you have unquestioned cooperation of all current and future TDs, reserving weekends will not work. I know because I have tried it.

Here was my rigid schedule. A-Tiers, and large B-Tiers happen on even numbered weekends, multiple smaller B-Tiers and C-Tiers happen on odd numbered weekends. Some fudging of the order to allow for holidays.

A-Tiers do not follow on consecutive event weekends, but b-Tiers could.

This would allow for about 22 large events and over 60 smaller events without having major conflicts. But it requires that events spread over the summer. Very few want to do so. Four major areas, each should be limited to about 5 large events.

I think the outlying events that persevere deserve protection, the events in the major markets can handle some competition.

Outside the major markets I have Amarillo, Athens, Corpus, Lubbock, Round Top, Tyler, Victoria, and Waco with larger long standing events.

Inside the major markets I have LOSO, COTO, VPO, TX States, HOTT Final, 3C6P Final, Waterloo, Lewisville, Mr Jims, PIASO, TX Womens, Outlaws

This limits all of the outlying cities to one event each year, and most of them are starting to talk about having two. I know that I am having trouble not having more than two events a year on the popular courses in DFW.

And now we are getting more courses that are being designed for tournament play. Do we tell them that they have to wait for a old guy to retire or die before we can promote them to the big guy list?


It is a good idea, and I am not making light of it. It is hard to show several years of frustration in trying to do something similar to what you are proposing without sounding short. It is not my intention, merely my lack of writing talent.

whatever, I sense another redux.

I fear one too, that is why I am pointing out the problems that have scuttled the previous attempts.

We have not tried regional coordinators, it should be a good thing. Statewide reserved dates of more than about 6 will be tough. Then the question becomes which events get one of the 6 dates. The oldest?, the largest last year?, the largest over the last 5 years?

It is in the details that things start to fall apart, and unless there is a plan that covers the details I don't know that this will work.

Maybe go with 4 areas and 4 special weekends that have no competition. Each region has to decide which event fills that spot each year, and no single event can be there more than three years running.

I don't know, if I had the answer it would be working already. I just know what hasn't worked and some idea why.

I know that most people don't travel to the Birdshot events, but it's a monthly series that is in it's second year and pulls 50-80 players to it's c-tiers every month. It does pull mostly am players but it does need to at least be recognized for being around in this discussion. I know that Billy and Chuck don't post here actively like Vinnie and Mitch etc. They are made aware of what goes on here. The Birdshot Series isn't going to pull away a large amount of players from most of the state, but from Austin there will be a decent pull from the am's if they are on the same day. With that being said, I have tried to help scheduling our events this year on different weekends that most or all of the HOTT and 3Coast events. I know Gary has helped with this as well.