Ok, I got to examine one of the test Grooves on New Years. It was Champion plastic, very similar feeling to the Monarch and not the glossy/rubbery Champion like the Boss. The Bottom looked like a streched out Monarch wing with the groove being wider and shallower.

Kenny was raving about this disc. He described it as a super fast disc with an "old school" flight pattern. He said that it would hold the line it was released on, but get amazing forward penetration. He also said it did not have a ton of LSS a la the Destroyer/Boss. He said it will probably replace his Wraiths (blasphemy it seemed, but he said it). Unfortunately we were not at a course and it was dark, otherwise I would have taken it outside and threw it down the street. Kenny liked the Boss when it came out, but he thinks the Groove will be far more useful to him. Probably to most of us. I love the Boss and Monarch and I can't wait to get my groove on!

The Groove is def. something I look forward too! Destroyer and XCal are too stable for my arm, and the Boss was too inconsistant from disc to disc. I'm hoping the Groove will be the answer to all this with providing distance and reliability.

There is one being tested at La Mirada as we speak - waiting for a review

The Groove is def. something I look forward too! Destroyer and XCal are too stable for my arm, and the Boss was too inconsistant from disc to disc. I'm hoping the Groove will be the answer to all this with providing distance and reliability.



I would guess that the Groove will be less consistant disc to disc because the less stable a disc is the more noticible the differences disc to disc. BTW, besides 1st runs the Boss has impressed me with its consistency. Like most discs, if you replace the one you lost with one that feels similar with respect to dome/plastic stiffness and is about the same weight, it will fly the same. Disc companies purposefully create variances in their runs to satisfy the many different preferences of DGers.

If it's already going to be understable though I figured it would be understable to flippy instead of overstable, stable, understable and then flippy like the Boss.

I've been workin the test groove for a week or two now, and initially I like it alot. Very fast - both forehand and backhand. Thrown flat - it seems to want to turn over later in the flight than you might expect, but is then relatively stable at the end. I have yet to flip it all the way over. At the same time - I haven't had much opportunity to play with it in the wind. I'm trying to get a few more so I can do some serious field testing.

I have an orange test groove at 170 gm.

It is an interesting little disc...

All I can say is if they make this thing in some solid plastic (minty green echo) it will be a staple in my bag!!!

Man I love that Echo!

Green discs? The courses I play on; if you throw a Green disc over 300 feet you would probably never find it again. Orange and White are easier to find.

So the this disc is not going to have a groove on the top of the disc?

So the this disc is not going to have a groove on the top of the disc?



Nope. Just like a Monarch with a streched out wing.

The groove is on the bottom of the disc--like the Monarch.

Just want to thank Dave D. for providing the groove to the norcal and socal golfers at the team challenge. The groove is pretty overstable for my arm. I wish I would have grabbed a lighter one. Pretty nice sidearm disc so far with minimal trials.

Ok, I got to examine one of the test Grooves on New Years. It was Champion plastic, very similar feeling to the Monarch and not the glossy/rubbery Champion like the Boss. The Bottom looked like a streched out Monarch wing with the groove being wider and shallower.

Kenny was raving about this disc. He described it as a super fast disc with an "old school" flight pattern. He said that it would hold the line it was released on, but get amazing forward penetration. He also said it did not have a ton of LSS a la the Destroyer/Boss. He said it will probably replace his Wraiths (blasphemy it seemed, but he said it).



is it like a KC Champ Cheetah on steroids? if so, sign me up!

Any more reviews?

I'll have some in a day or two

i found a test groove the other day at a local course, it was pretty weird feeling. i gave it back to the owner before i had chance to throw it. i guess i am no help in this thread

When they release the Groove on Feb 2 will it be in both Star and Champ?

i believe the release is champ with the proto stamp, and there will be some cfr or tfr star plastic ones available

Star is just CFR at the moment.

are they as long as the destroyer or boss? how do they work as a roller?

The Destroyer and boss are mostly too stable for me, unless throwing into the wind. Groove is awesome, its got great glide, and a good amount of turn to make it S-turn without throwing really really hard. I like it.

threw one today and it was AWESOOOME!!! can't wait to get my own.

threw one today and it was AWESOOOME!!! can't wait to get my own.



Go to EBAY. I have 6 limited STAR ECO GROOVES up for bid right now

they are all way too expensive...if you are willing to make a trade pm me and..."LET"S MAKE A DEEAAL!!!"

Zonedriven has the Champion Grooves for $14.99

they are all way too expensive...if you are willing to make a trade pm me and..."LET"S MAKE A DEEAAL!!!"



Don't expect any trades from ol hutch. :D he has boxes of plastic from his LOOOOOONG career as an Am. :o

All I know is that I have thrown the champ groove and the Green Country Open Eco Grooves and I have to say the Eco groove is way better in my hand.

It flies straight, it turns over, it is easy to throw on finesse sidearms.

I really thought I wouldn't like it because I never threw the monarch, sidewinder, or the roadrunner. But it is nice.

Twistedflyer.com is the place to go to order them as they are raising funds for the NT here in Oklahoma.

So just thoughts from a some 950 player.

Red,
How do the Champ and Eco compare? I'm lovin' my Ecos

they are 25$ there too...anyone interested in trading for one? ill post up in traders row but here is where they are talked about.

Eco are CFR for the Green Country Open so they're gonna cost a bit more. I think that Twisted flyer is the only place to get them, and they're selling them for $25

Disc Golf Values has them for $30. Support us Okies!! They are worth every penny. I like the black ones.

Red,
How do the Champ and Eco compare? I'm lovin' my Ecos



The only champ I have is an Innova Tester...its 170 which is pretty light compared to most stuff I throw...so keep that in mind.

But overall there ISN'T much comparison between the champ and echo... The Echo holds a line, the champ is just not as good.

The champ seems to seriously lack the glide and speed that I am getting off the Echo.

And i guess you heard that they only made 500 of this run?

I sold like twenty at a mini up at the Lodge in Pawhuska (where the NT will be held) and they went fast too!

FWIW.

I got a few of the Ecos. I have a couple champs on the way. Lovin the Black Ecos

Yeah, Black is nice for the wall, I'm throwing Orange. Go Cowboys! :)

So is anyone that can throw a Boss correctly, like the groove? And is it easy to hyzer flip for those who throw 400ft or more?

Very easy to hyzerflip. I really like Climo's "old-school" flight comparison. It reminded my of a real fast XL. Lotsa glide, a good flip, a decent fade back (if you give in height), and not a huge skip.

Sweet, I'll crush them in tailwind then.

Test drove the Groove today. Cant say too much about it because it was really windy so I wasnt able to get a good feel for them. But I did crush a few in a tailwind doing a 360 drive.

the groove sucks in my opinion. This disc isnt as fast as a boss, its not even as fast as my destroyers... It held a good anhyzer line thrown high or low but thats while the disc is brand new... Ill stick with my roadrunner for long tailwind shots over 450.. from what dgdave and son of the dude say the echo ones are the sheeznit... anyone wanna trade me their echo for two champion grooves

I tested my Boss against the Groove yesterday. I couldn't throw either one decently with my normal one-finger grip, but when I power gripped them, they performed well. Into the wind was their forte. The groove that I have is only slightly less stable than the boss. 375' was my max for the boss yesterday against the wind (10ish mph).
The boss flew farther than the groove on all of the backhand throws, but the groove flew farther on my forehanded tosses.

I tossed my Champ groove yesterday and I actually liked it. It is a max weight 175 but its not the see through champion like all the rest that I had to choose from. Its more of a milky color and is extremely grippy. It was actually decently stable for me and I can through the boss. So I figured that it would be flippy but it wasnt I would throw it on a flat line and it would S beautifully. The main difference that I saw was that it didnt have a ton of skip at the end of its flight like the boss does. I will def be keeping one of these in my bag esp when I can get my hands on an echo one.

Groove Review:

Before I talk about this disc I will preface it with an admittance of my bias...The Boss and the Monarch are my favorite distance drivers and I've had a spot reserved in my bag for this disc virtually since Dave D. first hinted at its conception. I find the Monarch to be an incredibly versatile medium speed/understable distance driver for straight to right shots. I use the Boss as a power driver and unless there is wind I crush them with a flat to slight hyzer release. A good Boss throw out in the open usually yields around 450' for me. I don't like 1st run or flat Bosses as I find them too squirrely.

I ordered 2 Grooves from Zone Driven on Tues and bought 1 from my local store. Mine are yellow-172, yellow 174, and merlot 175. The lightest has the most dome, the yellow 174 has a moderate dome, and the merlot one is flat like most first run Bosses.

I threw all three in a field, and the 172 I took to the course and played a few holes with it exclusively. I have to say, more than any disc I've ever tried, that this disc flew EXACTLY how I expected it to, and the first throw I ripped it with about 10-15 degrees of hyzer and it flipped up and rode straight on a slight anhyzer for about 90% of its flight and then faded out with minimal skip as it hit the ground. I then threw my favorite Boss for comparison and I hit the exact same line from a slight anny release, but the Boss hit the turf with a lot more speed left and skipped left off the fairway. This is why I wanted a Groove, to fly like a Boss with less effort and stay on the fairway. The next hole I threw it on was a 330' hyzer shot into a 5-10 mph headwind. I took some speed off my release and threw it again with 10-15 degrees of hyzer and it flipped flat and faded pretty hard at the end, but still did not really skip. I parked the hole. For the next shot I took it across the street for a wide open 350' shot over the lake. The headwind was a little more prominent on this hole. Again I put it out there with the same release angle, but gave it a little more pop and the disc got flat, lifted, turned, and then came back in a very controlled manner and landed directly in line with my target, 30' past it. The last hole I threw it on was 666' and your tee shot has to start out under a low ceiling before the hole opens up down the fairway. Same release angle, this time with a left to right tailwind, and a harder throw yielded a shot that stayed turned over slightly until the very end getting great distance for a low, controlled shot.

After I was done at the course I went home and opened my Zone Driven package and took all three Grooves to the field. The Yellow 174 flew like a slightly more stable version of the 172. The flat 175g wanted to flip and not come back. I was still most impressed with the 172, and I'm thinking the dome was the difference more than the weight.

Anyway, I will use this disc in a tournament this weekend because not once did it do something unexpected. It is like a super Pro Wraith that is seasoned a little. Maybe a super fast Rogue...Anyway, I love it and I think it will be more useful and popular amoung the masses than the Boss.

is it as long as the boss/destroyer for you?

is it as long as the boss/destroyer for you?



Yes. It is very much a Boss-L. I was throwing my Boss alongside the whole time and the distances were very similar. The Boss was usually about 5 feet in front of the Groove, but that may be because I have a lot of experience with that disc. The Boss seemed a hair faster, but they are certainly within the same speed class.

Not a huge thrower here I usually throw the Wraith in the 300' range. I was throwing this consistently 10-20' further today but it was perfect weather today. Most shots when thrown flat would S out really nice but what impressed me is that unlike a lot of discs that rely on the S-curve it came back every time.

I am looking for first run or second run grooves, the colors I would like are, blueberry,pink,clear, and smoke. If anyone has any of these colors and would like to trade them please messege me, I have lots to trade.
thanks
zack

The first run stamped and production stamped grooves all look like the same run to me, with the exception of the few that are opaque. How many runs were there?

There has only been one run so far I believe. The first Champion Grooves to be released were proto star stamped and when those were gone they released the stock stamped ones - same run.

The stock stamp ones do look and feel just like the star stamped "first runs". I also like the addition of the flight ratings stamped on the disc. The ratings on the disc say Speed 12, Glide 6, HSS -2, LSS 2. I would agree pretty much except LSS should be 3. My Grooves finish harder than they turn over. Still nowhere near the fade of a Boss.

The Eco Stars are great as well. It is an amazing disc. Thanks Dave!

Is there any place online where you can get sub 170 Eco Star Grooves? I'd want to try one but haven't been able to find any.

Talk to Jeremy at Dynamic disc:
http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Dynamic-Discs__W0QQ_sidZ189230667?_nkw=eco+groove&submit=S earch

The stock stamp ones do look and feel just like the star stamped "first runs". I also like the addition of the flight ratings stamped on the disc. The ratings on the disc say Speed 12, Glide 6, HSS -2, LSS 2. I would agree pretty much except LSS should be 3. My Grooves finish harder than they turn over. Still nowhere near the fade of a Boss.



Speed 13, right?

The stock stamp ones do look and feel just like the star stamped "first runs". I also like the addition of the flight ratings stamped on the disc. The ratings on the disc say Speed 12, Glide 6, HSS -2, LSS 2. I would agree pretty much except LSS should be 3. My Grooves finish harder than they turn over. Still nowhere near the fade of a Boss.



Speed 13, right?



Yep, you are correct. I didn't have the disc in front of me when I posted and I forgot we're up to speed 13 already.

Is there any place online where you can get sub 170 Eco Star Grooves? I'd want to try one but haven't been able to find any.



There were no sub 170 eco grooves in either color, unless you weigh one of the 170's to see if it was miss marked.The only sub 170 ones are champion plastic

I have an Orange Eco Groove on the way. Are there noticeable flight differences between this and the Champion?? I know it's been asked on this thread, but I have yet to read a definite answer.

i have noticed my champion groove being more overstable and the eco groove will hold an anny line and s back like BUTTER! the eco groove is def my favorite of the 2. hope you enjoys yours too and orange is def the only color to get if you are throwing it.

I bought three Champion Grooves today. Two 168G and one 170G. These are really overstable. I was hoping for a less stable Boss but I'm pretty sure that these are as stable or more stable than my Bosses. The two 168Gs fly like they weigh 200Gs. These are pigs. They don't go anywhere. They are definately not a 13 speed discs. I'm disappointed. I still find it difficult to improve on Destroyers or Wraiths in my disc selection.

get an eco star groove...much better!

Here we go again...another wide wing driver that is anywhere from a turnover disc to an overstable pig.

I'll pass.

Here we go again...another wide wing driver that is anywhere from a turnover disc to an overstable pig.

I'll pass.


I think most (read: MOST, not all) of the people that have issues with discs flying drastically different simply don't know how to throw.

Boss is a good example... I threw various colors in first run, various colors of regular runs.... and all of them were the same: stable discs that were very touchy no matter what run I flipped. None of them were drastically overstable. In any run that I threw. None of them. If I got off a throw that felt perfect, it would fly perfect... great for forehand (which I feel is easier to get a consistent release with) but not with backhand which has a lot of variables.

i agree with that 100%. so many people are quick to blame the disc and not the fact that their back shoulder was low on the 5 toss cuz your fatigued or any other variable.

Here we go again...another wide wing driver that is anywhere from a turnover disc to an overstable pig.

I'll pass.



Let some time pass, the runs will stabilize. First run Bosses were all over the place. I had a blue one that flipped about like a Beast, and then I had a purple one that I could rip with anny and it would still come out early. The purple one was the lightest...Second run Bosses are consistently overstable for me, and I own several in different colors. I think the Groove will be the same way in that Dave D. will notice patterns and try to make the Groove consistantly where he wants it stability wise.

My Groove (yellow, domey, 172) is great. I use it where I used to use a Wraith--basically on holes where I don't want to throw as hard as I would have to throw the Boss or I don't want the fade/skip the Boss potentially has. The Groove flips up from slight hyzer and goes really low and straight. This is my favorite shot with it so far. I have yet to find the right trajectory and angle of release to really bomb it for Max D, but my home course has water everywhere, so I've been a little hesitant to let loose.

Oh, puh-lease.

I know that often times we get lower rated novice players with barely a few years experience who come on this message board and give reviews of discs. They may not have consistent throwing form or releases and make judgements based on a few isolated throws which may have been affected by bad form, wind, fatigue, etc.

And then you have someone like myself who's been playing disc golf since 1995, has played nearly 200 courses and close to a hundred tournaments in that time, worked his way over the years from Intermediate through Advanced and then to the Open division with a current player rating of 953. Every time I get a new disc I go out to a baseball field near my work over lunch and throw the disc at least a dozen times, and compare to the other drivers in my bag. There's a flag at the park that indicates wind direction and strength. Notice I'm throwing in a field, and not on a hole at a course. I'm not throwing after a tournament or a casual round when I have the chance to be fatigued. I'm not throwing the disc just once and making snap judgements on it.

And what have I found over the last few years? A ridiculous amount of inconsistency in these discs. Last year I bought several Discraft Force discs which ranged from flippy turnover discs that I had to throw with silly hyzer angle just to keep them from turning into cut rollers, to overstable pigs FROM THE EXACT SAME RUN that I had to throw with so much anhyzer that it was almost like I was throwing a backhand roller. Seriously, the disc started coming out of the anhyzer 50 feet out of my hand. And counterintuitively, the heavier discs were the flippy ones and the 167g discs were the overstable pigs! I also experienced the same phenomeon with some Destroyers and Boss discs from Innova. This isn't bad form affecting the flight of these discs, people. This is HUGE differences in the discs that are COMPLETELY obvious to anyone.

I don't know about you, but I can't afford buying several junk runs from the wrong mold in order to find the good ones. Apparently the Eco Grooves are flippy and the regular ones are the overstable pigs, but who knows how accurate that report is. Bottom line is that I don't have the time or patience to mess with it. Disc manufacturers have lost my confidence & trust with these wide wing drivers and they won't get any more of my money until these disc consistency issues can be solved.

i have to agree somewhat. sometimes the dome makes it less stable, sometimes more. I do not think much can be done, as that is how it is with discs as wide-rimmed and gyroscopic as these new ones. very small differences in speed (and therefore wind) also play a much bigger role in the flight of these new discs.

The manufacturers are in that "These go to eleven mindset." I, like you Jeff, have yet to be impressed at all by any of the wide winged drivers. I still find the Wraith to be a better disc than the Destroyer, XCalibur, Boss and Groove.

People forget that it's a Valkyrie that holds the distance record.

my star echo groove flies much like a very stable beast on steroids. early understable with a forward fade at the end of its flight
i have to throw the groove much harder for it to take on this characteristic. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Today I got the test a champ Groove 175g while also throwing a star Destroyer and champ Boss all 175g. They all landed within 10 feet of each other, the boss managed to be ahead on most throws followed by the groove then destroyer. When thrown slightly uphill the groove flew the longest. The groove flew very similar to the boss with the exception of left to right cross wind where the boss thrives, the groove failed every time thrown flat. Wind speed around 10-15 mph sustained.

Dave D has said himself that wider winged discs are more variable, but I don't think there is any question that they have more potential for distance. With my experience with the Boss, 80% are around the average stability, while the other 20% are either slightly understable or slightly overstable. For me, those are bonus discs because of their differences, not throw aways.

So, IMO, the choice is buy a disc that is the same every time, and lose distance or buy 2 or 3 Bosses until one works, throw farther, and maybe lose some consistency. May be a wash, but I choose the latter because it's more fun to throw far.

Haven't thrown a Groove yet.

Who is throwing Valkyries for distance anymore?

The manufacturers are in that "These go to eleven mindset." I, like you Jeff, have yet to be impressed at all by any of the wide winged drivers. I still find the Wraith to be a better disc than the Destroyer, XCalibur, Boss and Groove.

People forget that it's a Valkyrie that holds the distance record.



The only people I've heard similar sentiment from are those with so much power these new discs give them nothing on the golf course, or so little power that they can't get the rpms to make them perform.

Ever since I started this sport there have been naysayers when it comes to advances in disc technology, and to this day the naysayers have always been wrong and new, faster discs have been repeatedly excepted by the market and changed the sport.

Yeah, and ask a disc golfer how much they care about what disc can go the farthest in the desert with a monster tailwind and how much bearing that has on disc golf.

Oh, puh-lease.

I know that often times we get lower rated novice players with barely a few years experience who come on this message board and give reviews of discs. They may not have consistent throwing form or releases and make judgements based on a few isolated throws which may have been affected by bad form, wind, fatigue, etc.

And then you have someone like myself who's been playing disc golf since 1995, has played nearly 200 courses and close to a hundred tournaments in that time, worked his way over the years from Intermediate through Advanced and then to the Open division with a current player rating of 953. Every time I get a new disc I go out to a baseball field near my work over lunch and throw the disc at least a dozen times, and compare to the other drivers in my bag. There's a flag at the park that indicates wind direction and strength. Notice I'm throwing in a field, and not on a hole at a course. I'm not throwing after a tournament or a casual round when I have the chance to be fatigued. I'm not throwing the disc just once and making snap judgements on it.




<golf clap>

Exactly. I have a soccer field 200 yards from my house and I have a section of sidewalk that sits next to the open field that I can throw at night. I throw from one crack in the sidewalk throwing north and then another throwing south from the other end. I have thrown hundreds, if not thousands of test throws in that same corridor, and I have landmarks at both ends that show the distance. I throw both directions to negate the typical SE and NW winds.

I have thrown the SOLF, SOLS, SL, Starfire, Wraith, Boss, Destroyer, Teebird, TL, JLS, Eagle, Teerex, Teerex-Xtra, Monarch, Sidewinder, Surge, Avenger, Predator, etc etc

I was very impressed by the Boss's speed and thought the distance improvement of 25' (on average) was significant until I brought out my best old domey Wraiths which matched the Boss, and often outdistanced it.

I think the trick is that the consistent Wriaths (domey, hard) need to be very worn, and then they really go (and are still very consistent in terms of wind performace). It just takes a very long time to get one of these good, solid performers (made in the good plastic) worn in that much. The softer Star Wraiths get bent too easily, can become inconsistent like the Pro versions (too bad Dave D said these softer Stars are going to be the "new Star").

I my opinion, there is still much more that can be done to refine the subtitles of the 11 speed discs to improve performance, but putting out wider and wider winged discs have taken priority over actually improving the existing technology.

While I admit that the wider winged discs can go significantly farther *ON OCASSION* in my testing they barely register improvement *ON AVERAGE*.

The other problem is that I cannot hit my rear with both hands using these discs with rims so wide they feel like holding a baseball bat.

Surprisingly, I can throw a Beat Star Teebird nearly as far as any of these... I certainly know where these are going. Truthfully, I only use the Wraith and TRX for penetration, not distance

Also, the new wide winged drivers are very fast into a flat fade and are very good for skipping in from the right to left.

As for going right, you better learn a forehand...

...but for hyser course players, they are great.

Ever since I started this sport there have been naysayers when it comes to advances in disc technology, and to this day the naysayers have always been wrong and new, faster discs have been repeatedly excepted by the market and changed the sport.



This isn't about the advances in disc technology and the potential they have to change the sport. That was never in doubt. Once they found the right one, just about everyone has had a 'hallelujah' moment with these new discs, where they threw for a personal record distance or reached a hole that they never have before.

The issue here is solely about consistency. Used to be that if you bought a Cyclone, it had the same flight characteristics. Maybe the pink ones were a little better, and the heavier ones were a little more overstable and wind-resistant than the lighter ones, but that was about it. The differences were very subtle.

Nowadays it's a totally different story. You read about people throwing a Force or Destroyer or a Boss a country mile, or your buddy has one in his bag and gives it to you to chuck and you absolutely launch the thing and get an unbelievably sweet 'S' curve out of it for max distance. And then what happens? You go and buy some yourself several of them, and even within the SAME RUN you get one flippy driver and two overstable pigs that go absolutely nowhere. Not just slightly more stable - but absolute meathook discs that start hyzering 50 feet out of your hand.

This kind of inconsistency is unacceptable, and I won't waste my time & money on new discs if this keeps occurring. I shouldn't have to read several different disc golf message boards to find out which are the good runs. I shouldn't have to buy several throwaway clunkers to find the good ones. I shouldn't have to do research and poke around to find out that only the Eco Grooves between 172 and 175g are the bomb diggity ones, and the others are meathooks. When you buy a Groove, you should get a Groove with basically the same flight characteristics! That is the only point being made here.

I haven't tried a Groove but I'll throw my 2 cents in about the "wide rim" debate.

I can consistently throw a Wraith between 350-400 feet and a Star Sidewinder between 400-450 feet. I'm assuming I have a Sidewinder that is more stable than most people get because when I release it at full power it tends to turn over about as long as the Wraith but then it flattens out and glides forever, never really "coming back." The problem is when I tell people I can throw a Sidewinder that far they just don't believe it. I've thrown it on flat ball golf driving range and that's why I know how far I can throw it. Result of a "wide rim?" I have no idea...

I have one pre-release CE Boss and I hardly ever use it. I can throw it further than my Wraith but the weird thing is, it tends to turn over a lot on some days and on others I can't get it to turn over for the life of me. Obviously it's my technique that causes this, but all of my other discs seem to be a lot more forgiving and follow the path I intended (for the most part.)

As I've gotten better and wiser over the years, I've started to throw mid-range discs off the tee more often than distance drivers. I love to use a Buzzz, Viper, Cobra, Roc, Skeeter, and Wolf. But maybe that's because courses around here are more wooded and the holes are rarely over 300'.

And if I want distance off the tee I'll usually go to a CE Teebird or Star TL. Straight flight is the name of the game for me.

I've progressed my game to a point that I can park most 200'-250' shots with a clear line and the appropriate mid range disc for an easy putt. So often times, I choose to "lay-up" for the shot that I know I can park.

I'd have a different opinion if I played courses like Tupelo Bay, I'm sure, but I'd prefer to see disc manufacturers focus on improving accuracy of discs vs. distance they fly.

It's really fun to throw far but when every shot counts, I choose accuracy first 99% of the time.

On a side note...I have three discs named after snakes...Sidewinder, Viper, and Cobra... :D

worked his way over the years from Intermediate through Advanced and then to the Open division with a current player rating of 953


Emphasis mine for LOLs. Sorry Jeff, but are you able to say that with a straight face? I'm hoping you had a chuckle while you typed it.

Anyway... In the (coming up on) four years since I first picked up a disc I've never had an issue with disc consistency. Every Destroyer I've picked up has had very similar if not identical flight characteristics. Every XCaliber. Every Boss. Every Teebird. I have not had any issues with consistency. Either I'm the luckiest disc golfer in the world or there are some people out there with definite unconscious inconsistencies in their release or pull through at some point.

That includes you, Jeff. A 950ish rated player is NOT a sign of a solid golfer. If you want to call yourself solid, if you want to say you're consistent at release then your rating has to be 990+. You can't be a 950nothing golfer, barely good enough to finish top 3 in Advanced, and say your game is all that consistent.

Its the archer not the arrow.


-Chris.

CWojPutt,
I really hope ur not serious about ur whole, "a 950 rated player is NOT a sign of a solid golfer" thing.....
Very arrogant sounding and stupid to say.

As a matter of fact, a 950 rated golfer is very consistent to the average joe that plays DG out there. And further, a 950 rating, for some people, is a very rewarding and satifing accomplishment.
All i read in ur post is rudeness, sorry.

Wojciechowski,

Please send me your mailing address so I can send you the Discraft Force discs I bought last year. All from the same run, the heavier ones (~175g) are flippy turnover drivers that I have to throw with serious hyzer angle to avoid obtaining a cut roller because they hyzer flip so badly. The lighter ones (~ 167g) are overstable meathooks that seriously start turning left practically 50 feet out of my hand. To get any distance whatsoever with them, I have to throw them with so much anhyzer that it's almost like I'm throwing a backhand roller.

As a golfer with 14 years of experience and a 950 player rating, it's really insulting for you to sit there and tell me that I'm not a solid golfer, it's my technique, blah, blah, blah. The difference between these discs is NIGHT AND DAY and it's immediately obvious to anyone with half a brain. Additionally, your assertion that anyone with a rating below 990 doesn't have consistent enough technique to comment about disc flight characteristics is about as ridiculous as it gets. We might as well remove the Equipment section of the message board then, since this eliminates 99% of PDGA members, including yourself.

Bottom line is that if you've never experienced this consistency issue, then consider yourself fortunate; because you will.

Maybe 171g could be the perfect weight for wide rimmed discs.

worked his way over the years from Intermediate through Advanced and then to the Open division with a current player rating of 953


Emphasis mine for LOLs. Sorry Jeff, but are you able to say that with a straight face? I'm hoping you had a chuckle while you typed it.

Anyway... In the (coming up on) four years since I first picked up a disc I've never had an issue with disc consistency. Every Destroyer I've picked up has had very similar if not identical flight characteristics. Every XCaliber. Every Boss. Every Teebird. I have not had any issues with consistency. Either I'm the luckiest disc golfer in the world or there are some people out there with definite unconscious inconsistencies in their release or pull through at some point.

That includes you, Jeff. A 950ish rated player is NOT a sign of a solid golfer. If you want to call yourself solid, if you want to say you're consistent at release then your rating has to be 990+. You can't be a 950nothing golfer, barely good enough to finish top 3 in Advanced, and say your game is all that consistent.

Its the archer not the arrow.


-Chris.



Dude a little over a year ago your rating was 954... so you're saying way way back then you had not the skills to now what the heck your disc was doing? :p

i just want to add here that a lot of people are rated lower due to putting issues, not driving. that is often my problem in tournaments, although not as much recently. "putt for dough" as they say. well, putt for rating too.

Woj,
I don't post on this board much, but I check it a couple times a week. I remember a post by you telling McCoy how to throw a certain hole at USDGC with a star max. However, you said in this post its the archer, not the arrow. Has something changed? Before it was the disc, not the thrower? I realize your rating has went up, your game has gotten better, and good for you. It's whack that you call somebody out for their rating when you aren't that much higher than them. Furthermore, calling out players that have a little bit lower ranking than yours is one of the reasons its hard to keep people playing the game. If I go dig through threads, I bet I can go see one of your posts where you got all bent out of shape by someone calling you out for your rating. Weak.

Jeff's point was that there was inconsistency with wide rim discs and I have to agree with it. I have thrown wide rimmed discs from most of the big manufacturers all of which have some variation in flight path. If you talk to the manufacturers, they will tell you the same thing. They are at the mercy of the plastic makers.

Check out discspeed's review. He pretty much hits home on the same thing and I would put up his reviews of discs against anyone. He did discuss some variation in the disc flight paths.

It is the archer not the arrow, but the archer should be able to trust the arrow.

My $.02

Sorry i had to comment on Woj's comment guys. Didnt mean to rub it in or open a can of worms or anything. it seems that not just me was somewhat taken back by his comment. I would have felt offended.

ANYWAY....,maybe we could move on?

Let's move on!

I only have one of these discs at this time, but I like it very much. I can throw anything from a long controlled turnover, to a straight down the middle drive that will flatten and and run a long way with a nice hyzer glide at the end.

I look forward to getting more if these discs and seeing what else I can learn to do with it.

The only drawback that I see with this disc is that people that don't have big hands will have trouble getting a solid grip on it. This is my .02, not to mention some of the Am's that I have let throw it.

I don't comment often about discs and their flights, but I do read this board often. To everyone on this thread, in my 30 years of throwing plastic, I can tell you that there are some inconsistencies in runs of discs. It just happens. There are inconsistencies in the way everyone, regardless of rating throws a disc. Sorry to make the following comment, but the statement Mr. Woj made just rubbed me the wrong way.

Woj, I don't know you, but rating can be deceiving. Mr. Ed Headrick had a rating under 900, do you think he might have known about whether a run of discs was consistent or not? Anyway, get off your rating horse and go play golf. There are many of us that have been around for a while that due to life don't have the rating that some people think you have to have before you can know anything. Get over it.


Now back to the Groove. This is a sweet disc for some of us. I have thrown it in some wind and like what it does for me. Others might not think the same. So for my money, it is a good disc that might find its way in to my bag.

peace

How much do you think the 1st Run Star Grooves will be worth in about a year?? I finally got one of the Green County Open Star Grooves and am not sure how much they're going for since I traded a DF Boss for it, and dont know how sought after they are. I really just need to know if I should hang it on the wall for a while and let the value go up or if I should try to sell it now.

I can tell you the GCO eco grooves sell for $25. And they only made 500 of them, 300 in black and 200 in orange. So you get to decide to keep it or sell it. I got 2 (1 to throw and 1 to keep).

Well if there are only 500 then I'll keep mine for now.

Dude a little over a year ago your rating was 954... so you're saying way way back then you had not the skills to now what the heck your disc was doing?


I frequently still don't. Took double bogeys and bogeys all over the place at the Cracked Plastic Classic just a week ago.


Woj,
I don't post on this board much, but I check it a couple times a week. I remember a post by you telling McCoy how to throw a certain hole at USDGC with a star max. However, you said in this post its the archer, not the arrow. Has something changed? Before it was the disc, not the thrower? I realize your rating has went up, your game has gotten better, and good for you. It's whack that you call somebody out for their rating when you aren't that much higher than them. Furthermore, calling out players that have a little bit lower ranking than yours is one of the reasons its hard to keep people playing the game. If I go dig through threads, I bet I can go see one of your posts where you got all bent out of shape by someone calling you out for your rating. Weak.

Jeff's point was that there was inconsistency with wide rim discs and I have to agree with it. I have thrown wide rimmed discs from most of the big manufacturers all of which have some variation in flight path. If you talk to the manufacturers, they will tell you the same thing. They are at the mercy of the plastic makers.

Check out discspeed's review. He pretty much hits home on the same thing and I would put up his reviews of discs against anyone. He did discuss some variation in the disc flight paths.

It is the archer not the arrow, but the archer should be able to trust the arrow.

My $.02


If you look through my posts you'll see that you have no idea what you're talking about. I'll be the first to espouse the fact that I AM NOT GOOD AT DISC GOLF. I have done so before and will do so right here. I. Am. Not. Good. At. Disc. Golf. Seriously. And yeah, a year ago I said something stupid, congratulations to me. I recommended that disc selection based on what I saw of the hole. The archer can choose a proper disc for a hole. Since playing that hole, about a year and a half ago when I was a 930ish golfer and sucked even worse, I realized I was incorrect. I know I suck at disc golf. If I didn't suck at disc golf I wouldn't have taken back-to-back double bogeys at the Cracked Plastic Classic last weekend and totally botched my second round. I AM BAD AT DISC GOLF.

I aspire to be much better, but right now I suck. And guess what? Jeff sucks too. And so do you. Your rating shows it.

If you knew what you were talking about you'd understand that while it is the archer not the arrow, there is a matter of disc selection: which is a case of the archer. Your argument is completely HORRIBLE. A FAILURE OF AN ARGUMENT. My arguing for a certain disc selection has nothing to do with this at all! It isn't even a similar debate! This is about people having inconsistent form and not realizing it. But even with the most consistent form proper disc selection will help to determine what you wind up doing in the end: throwing a beat 166 roadrunner into a headwind isn't going to work out well on a sweeping hyzer, I don't care if you're Ken Climo.

Furthermore if you want to talk about people quitting the game because of the fact that I am blunt about the fact that they're not very good? Well, you have no idea. I'm building the games of more players in my area than anybody else has. I give lessons on form, on putting, on anything anyone wants. I'm blunt with my criticism. I will be the first to tell a player "What you just did was not good." And guess what? They ask me how they can fix it. They don't walk off the course. People like it when you help them, even if you are a bit blunt about it.


Frankly, I don't care how this makes me look. I'm sick of people here thinking they're consistent with their release, that they understand how to throw a great shot every time... when their rating doesn't show it. I know mine doesn't! I'm not very good. And virtually nobody in this thread is any good. Its a fact. Its reflected in our games.

With high speed drivers the real issue lies in the fact that the margin for error with relation to spin and speed is a lot smaller. You need to hit that perfect spot in terms of the ratio or you're going to wind up with inconsistent flights. Now my knowledge of this isn't about how good I am on the course, this is about all the reading I've done on disc flights. And I agree with one point: people can know what they're talking about and give very good advice even if they have low ratings. I respect Blake Takkunen's advice on form and grip.

But the fact is: if you're not consistent enough to throw good enough drives to play 995+ rated golf on a consistent basis, you're not good enough to give a proper review of the consistency of a disc.

I have tried two Groove's, weighing 170g and 175g. They're both way too stable for me, but I love them when I need a hyzer forehand. The wide rim is perfect for a powergrip forehand. RHBH then, it is another story. I do not use powergrip on my backhand throws, and I find these wide rims uncomfortable for BH drives.

Considering the discussion on consistency and rating, I just want to add that it is a matter of releasing consistent with the SAME power and angle every time.

For me, rated 950ish, I do release very consistent. My "low" rating has to do with me not being able to drive farther then 90m/270ft on average. This prevents me from reaching most par 3's, and I rarely reach par 4's in two. thus making fewer birdies. I still think that my technique is good enough to feel the difference between certain discs even if they are from the same run.

I will stick with my Monarch's as my main driver, but the Groove is superb for those who has enough arm to use it!

Hey everyone,

So as not to further derail this thread, please take all discussion regarding the consistency of wide-rimmed drivers and who is qualified to give disc reviews to this thread (http://discussion.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=906049&an=0&page=0#Post9 06049).

Please keep this thread dedicated solely to discussion about the Groove driver.

Thanks. :cool:

Back to the Groove...I've been throwing my 3 first runs a lot. This disc is fun. Once again I have a deep yellow 172, a lighter yellow 174, and a Merlot 175. The yellows fly similarly. Both have some definite high speed turn out of my hand, but they always seem to stabilize in the middle of the flight rather than holding anhyzer. When they do flip it is a slower turn than the Boss. My favorite shot with this disc is a low laser that flips flat but not over and has a modest yet predictable fade at the end. It can go 400' on this line. When I throw them hard, they get a good line but do not go as far as when I rip my Boss with anhyzer. Perhaps I just don't have the perfect line/height yet.

The Merlot one is definetely more stable. It seems to have about a half-step less HSS than my Boss, and a whole step less LSS. Its not quite as fast, but it is VERY useful. It has enough stability to be good in moderate wind, and its fade is manageable enough to keep it on the fairway.

I like all of them and I think this is a very useful disc. I think it will be great for people with good control and limited power. I do not think it will be a good beginner disc because you have to throw it with good form and decent snap to get it to work.

Discspeed,

Have you thrown the Echo?

Discspeed,

Have you thrown the Echo?



Nope...send me one and I'd be glad to! :D I'll check them out when they're $16.

After some time with the Groove I'm kind of puzzled. For starters I've thrown several different ones between 171-175g and I've yet to find one that is anywhere near the -2 in high speed turn. They have mostly been between 0 and -1. My most stable first run is flat, so I decided to try some domey ones. The only domey ones I could find were 171-172, and since I was hoping they would be flippy, I bought them even though I usually prefer 174-175. To my surprise, these two were MORE stable than all my others. Basically they are slower Bosses with less fade and maybe even more HSS. Not what I was looking for...Right now I'm considering going back to the Wraith at least until the Star Grooves come out. Perhaps they will be more what I'm looking for.

Other observations concerning the Champ Groove...
In my attepts to throw them for Max D they have a nasty tendency to stall out. They flip if I throw them low, but up in the air they do not.
They are good at low S shots, and low shots in general.
They GO NOWHERE in ANY tailwind. Seriously...in a tailwind they seem to behave more stable than Bosses and get ZERO glide while fading.
Good for hyzers forehand and backhand. Better than the Boss for most arms, but I can throw the Boss and prefer it for these shots. I don't have a lot of forehand power and I like it for that. Unfortunately, the Wraith still seems more versatile...and when I get a Star Boss broken in I'm not sure this disc will have much to offer my game unless it flies much better in Star (which it may well do).

I have some new and used Star Grooves for sell/trade if you're interested.