Here's a little exercise to see what's happened with disc design evolution in the ratio of disc diameter to rim or wing width. Under the current specs, the minimum diameter is 21.0 cm, maximum wing width is 2.6 cm and minimum Rim Config (edge sharpness) is 26. That means the minimum Wing Ratio possible is 8.1 (Epic design was grandfathered in when the new specs were set last year). This list is sorted as Wing Ratio increases.

First, is there any doubt that discs designed close to these specs has increased their potential distance? Second, it looks like we may have finally maxed out the golf distance potential in disc design unless the manufacturers find other parameters besides these to tweak that make a difference. Lucky 13 could be the long term Speed max for drivers?
<table> <tr> <td>MANUFACTURER</td><td>DISC MODEL</td><td>Diam (cm)</td><td>Wing (cm)</td><td>Wing Ratio</td><td>Rim Config. </td></tr> <tr> <td>Aerobie</td><td>Epic Driver</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.5-4.1</td><td>6.4</td><td>26.50 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Double D</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.6</td><td>8.1</td><td>28.75 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Innova-Champion Discs</td><td>Boss</td><td>21.2</td><td>2.5</td><td>8.5</td><td>26.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Innova-Champion Discs</td><td>Groove</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.4</td><td>8.8</td><td>28.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Force</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.3</td><td>9.2</td><td>26.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Innova-Champion Discs</td><td>XCaliber</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.3</td><td>9.2</td><td>29.50 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Backbone</td><td>21.2</td><td>2.3</td><td>9.2</td><td>54.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discwing</td><td>Quarter K</td><td>21.3</td><td>2.3</td><td>9.3</td><td>28.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Odyssey Driver</td><td>21.3</td><td>2.3</td><td>9.3</td><td>27.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Scream DT Max</td><td>21.3</td><td>2.3</td><td>9.3</td><td>31.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Snap Discsports</td><td>Helios</td><td>21.7</td><td>2.3</td><td>9.4</td><td>11.79 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Venom</td><td>21.0</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.5</td><td>30.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discmania</td><td>DD - Distance Driver</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>30.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Surge</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>30.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Innova-Champion Discs</td><td>Destroyer</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>30.50 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Innova-Champion Discs</td><td>Tee-Rex</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>30.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>CHING Sports</td><td>Power Genesis</td><td>21.2</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>27.50 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Spectra</td><td>21.2</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>30.75 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Innova-Champion Discs</td><td>Max</td><td>21.2</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>34.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Latitude 64</td><td>Riot</td><td>21.2</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>30.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Scorcher</td><td>21.2</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>30.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Scream</td><td>21.2</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.6</td><td>26.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Gateway Disc Sports</td><td>Blurr</td><td>21.3</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.7</td><td>28.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Gateway Disc Sports</td><td>Speed Demon DT</td><td>21.3</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.7</td><td>26.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Scream DT Ultra 2</td><td>21.3</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.7</td><td>26.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Scream II</td><td>21.3</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.7</td><td>27.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Gateway Disc Sports</td><td>Rage</td><td>21.4</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.7</td><td>26.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Gateway Disc Sports</td><td>Speed Demon</td><td>21.4</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.7</td><td>27.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Odyssey Power Driver</td><td>21.4</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.7</td><td>27.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Scream DT Ultra</td><td>21.4</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.7</td><td>29.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Low Speed Driver</td><td>23.4</td><td>2.4</td><td>9.8</td><td>34.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Rogue</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.8</td><td>28.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Gateway Disc Sports</td><td>Diablo DT</td><td>21.6</td><td>2.2</td><td>9.8</td><td>26.75 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discwing</td><td>Quarter K II</td><td>21.0</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>28.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Crush</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>29.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Flash</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>27.50 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Flick</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>26.00 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Discraft</td><td>Surge-SS</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>29.25 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Innova-Champion Discs</td><td>Monarch</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>30.75 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Innova-Champion Discs</td><td>Wraith</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>26.75 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Raging Inferno DT</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>27.75 </td></tr> <tr> <td>Quest Applied Technologies</td><td>Scream DT</td><td>21.1</td><td>2.1</td><td>10.0</td><td>26.00 </td></tr> </table>

interesting. i think the destroyer is 2.3 though.

what is lucky 13?

The dimensions are right off the official PDGA Approved disc page. The Boss and Groove are listed as speed 13 on the disc characteristics chart.

yeah-- i saw that on the pdga page and wondered what was up, because the destroyer definitely has a wider rim than the teerex, and has the same rim width as the xcal. also-the backbone is a midrange. does it have that wide of a rim? great subject and chart by the way.

The wing ratio is not a spec that's tracked. But I was curious to see what it would look like. And we see the newest drivers near the top.

If you measure discs, it's not uncommon for your measurements to vary from the official numbers measured by Homburg. Even the manufacturers don't always get the same numbers. Both differences in procedures, equipment and slight variances in produced models including flashing can produce slightly different measurements.

When a new disc is submitted for approval, is a single specimen officially measured or are several (if so, how many?) measured with the median (or mean or mode or some other hybrid "average") measurement adopted as the official spec?

Three disc samples. Testing procedure is spelled out in this document:
www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGATechStandards_08.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGATechStandards_08.pdf)

Hey Chuck,
you left off a few Gateway discs,,,:
The Spirit, Blast, and Illusion all at 2.2
The assassin at a little over 2.1.

Dont worry we are no where near the end!
There will be plenty of room for new shapes and designs literally hundreds.
The real technology will be in surface and in wing to flight plate weight ratio's that can be changed drastically by using 2 different polymers.
look for control shaped drivers like Tee birds and assassin but much more gyroscopic by using 2 different polymers. ) light weight for the flight late and heavy for the rim.
The longer a frisbee spins the longer it flies, the more weight on the rim the longer it spins. ( check out competition YO-YO's, they have lead on the rim)
Expect more perimeter weighted over molded discs like the odyssey discs but a little more fine tuned and urethane on the rim!

The chart only goes down to 10.0 Wing Ratio. It's not based on diameter. Those discs you mentioned have Wing Ratios higher than 10.0.

The dimensions are right off the official PDGA Approved disc page. The Boss and Groove are listed as speed 13 on the disc characteristics chart.



So thwere will be a 14 in a few months!

C'mon Chuck they were saying this 9 years ago when the Valkyrie came out and now it is supposedly obsolete so yes it will continue.

If this is supposed to help the SC position I think it does the opposite because I would like to see them REMAIN lids if they were supposed to be designed as such. If you go into changing the flights once again you will end up were we are now and need another Stuper class.

The big difference is that the Valk specs weren't near the limits since there were few at the time. Now we have several specs the current designs are bumping up against.

The big difference is that the Valk specs weren't near the limits since there were few at the time. Now we have several specs the current designs are bumping up against.



As is they would have not run into them anyway! I mean isn't that why innova is making Grooves in the rim? I was suprised to hear it had little to do with flight and mainly it was so that they could make a larger rim but keep it down in weight.

A 3cm rim would have a very hard to make with the old weight restrictions even without placing a limit on wing width.

using dx plastic, they could easily make a disc w/ a 3cm [and wider] wide rim. it will be interesting if innova goes wider. it looks like they could if they kept the diameter close to 21.
on a side note- it is my opinion that just because a rim is wider, does not mean that disc will fly farther [generally]. the groove or notch out of the monarch and groove decrease the "gyroscopicness" of the disc, meaning it will loose it's spin sooner. the monarch is fast out of the hand, but does not hold it's speed/spin as long as other speed 10 discs, like the beast/orc/starfire. this also explains it's excellent controllability. I assume the same factors will be in play with the groove. you just know the lighter dx bosses will be sick, for max D anyway.

using dx plastic, they could easily make a disc w/ a 3cm [and wider] wide rim. it will be interesting if innova goes wider. it looks like they could if they kept the diameter close to 21.
on a side note- it is my opinion that just because a rim is wider, does not mean that disc will fly farther [generally]. the groove or notch out of the monarch and groove decrease the "gyroscopicness" of the disc, meaning it will loose it's spin sooner. the monarch is fast out of the hand, but does not hold it's speed/spin as long as other speed 10 discs, like the beast/orc/starfire. this also explains it's excellent controllability. I assume the same factors will be in play with the groove. you just know the lighter dx bosses will be sick, for max D anyway.



Ok I guess I should have meant in good plastic but that is all most people use anyway. Wide rimmed DX would last about 2 rounds.

Perhaps it was ideal weather/wind conditions in the desert at BIG D...but THE record of 250m/820' with a Valkyrie still stands. Perhaps glide (and less gyroscopic-ness) had more to do with it than speed? I know, I know...distance isn't everything! :p

Throwing for long distance versus throwing golf drives a long way are different things. It's also possible that the wider wing discs up to now have been too stable for long distance throws and some of the new lesser stable ones like the Monarch or Groove may provide the improvements needed to beat the current record. Perhaps we'll see next year?

The real technology will be in surface and in wing to flight plate weight ratio's that can be changed drastically by using 2 different polymers.
look for control shaped drivers like Tee birds and assassin but much more gyroscopic by using 2 different polymers. ) light weight for the flight late and heavy for the rim.
The longer a frisbee spins the longer it flies, the more weight on the rim the longer it spins. ( check out competition YO-YO's, they have lead on the rim)




Conversely, a wide rimmed disc that is NOT gyroscopic would be interesting as well.

Perhaps it was ideal weather/wind conditions in the desert at BIG D...but THE record of 250m/820' with a Valkyrie still stands. Perhaps glide (and less gyroscopic-ness) had more to do with it than speed? I know, I know...distance isn't everything! :p



I know wind helps a lot. This weekend I threw a Comet over 500ft! The problem was that I was OB 150ft past the basket. :confused:

That is with a 35MPH wind. There were plenty of triple putts from 10ft that day. :D