So I was sitting in class today and going over my bag and wondering... just how would I switch things up if I decided to switch over my entire bag to another company. Here's what I came up with, if anyone thinks any of my equivalents don't make sense go ahead and say so...

(oh, and I'd do Gateway if I had even the slightest clue how their stuff flies, we don't get any around here)

Ch Monster --> Z Predator
St XCaliber --> ESP Pulse
Ch Boss --> Z Force
St Destroyer --> Rogue

Ch Firebird --> Z Flick
St Teebird --> Z Talon
St Valkyrie --> ESP XL
St Roadrunner --> ESP AvengerSS



How would your bag look?

What I throw on the left, the equivalent on the right...

E Spirit--->Star Max
SRP Raging Inferno--->Starfire-X
E Diablo-DT--->Orc
E Illusion-QC--->Starfire-L
E Inferno--->Beast
Pre. T-Bone--->TeeBird/Tracker
E Blaze---> Firebird
E Sabre-FX--->TeeBird-L/XL
Demon--->Drone
E Element-X--->Roc
E Element--->Shark/Comet
Wizard--->KC Aviar or JK Aviar-X or Challenger
Voodoo--->Birdie/Rattler

Firebird----- Z Pred
Teebird----- ESP Pred or Tsunami
Roc----- Wasp and Element
KC Aviar----- Challenger and Magnet or Wiz

E Spirit - Z Xtreme (if i could find one) or a Monster, maybe Firebird
beat E Spirit - Eagle or Talon maybe
Star Wraiths - Surges? maybe beat up Pulses? Diablo DTs?
E Sabres - Cyclones? or maybe Leopards
Ch Whippet Xs - demons or drones i guess
Z Buzzzes - Rocs or El Xs
Wizards - KC Aviars

So I was sitting in class today and going over my bag and wondering... just how would I switch things up if I decided to switch over my entire bag to another company. Here's what I came up with, if anyone thinks any of my equivalents don't make sense go ahead and say so...

(oh, and I'd do Gateway if I had even the slightest clue how their stuff flies, we don't get any around here)

Ch Monster --> Z Predator
St XCaliber --> ESP Pulse
Ch Boss --> Z Force
St Destroyer --&gt; Rogue <font color="red">or FLX Surge or Surge SS</font>

Ch Firebird --&gt; Z Flick <font color="red">Flicks are much faster, probably Z-Xtreme</font>
St Teebird --&gt; Z Talon <font color="red">if you can find them, or try a Z-Tracker</font>
St Valkyrie --&gt; <font color="red">XS</font>
St Roadrunner --&gt; ESP AvengerSS



How would your bag look?

So I was sitting in class today and going over my bag and wondering... just how would I switch things up if I decided to switch over my entire bag to another company. Here's what I came up with, if anyone thinks any of my equivalents don't make sense go ahead and say so...

(oh, and I'd do Gateway if I had even the slightest clue how their stuff flies, we don't get any around here)

Ch Monster --&gt; Z Predator
St XCaliber --&gt; ESP Pulse
Ch Boss --&gt; Z Force
St Destroyer --&gt; Rogue <font color="red">or FLX Surge or Surge SS</font>

Ch Firebird --&gt; Z Flick <font color="red">Flicks are much faster, probably Z-Xtreme</font>
St Teebird --&gt; Z Talon <font color="red">if you can find them, or try a Z-Tracker</font>
St Valkyrie --&gt; <font color="red">XS</font>
St Roadrunner --&gt; ESP AvengerSS



How would your bag look?





Z Xtreme and firebrid are not close.

destroyers and rogues aren't equivalent in my experience.

I just did switch my bag about 3 months ago. Overall I'm happy with the switch and stoked to be 'buying local'.

TeeBird -&gt; Z-Avenger / Z-Tracker
New Roc -&gt; Wasp
Straight Roc -&gt; Buzzz
Beat Roc -&gt; Buzzz SS
Wraith/Destroyer -&gt; Force
Firebird -&gt; still searching...

Innova--Discraft--Gateway/Quest

Ch Monster --Z Flick--E Rage
St XCaliber --Zforce--Double D
Ch Boss --ESP Force--E Illusion
St Destroyer --ESP Flash-- E Diablo

Ch Firebird --Z Predator--E Rage
St Teebird --Z Talon/Avenger-- Assassin/Sabre
St Valkyrie --Z Wildcat-- S Illusion (used)
St Roadrunner --Avenger SS-- Inferno

I just did switch my bag about 3 months ago. Overall I'm happy with the switch and stoked to be 'buying local'.

TeeBird -&gt; Z-Avenger / Z-Tracker
New Roc -&gt; Wasp
Straight Roc -&gt; Buzzz
Beat Roc -&gt; Buzzz SS
Wraith/Destroyer -&gt; Force
Firebird -&gt; still searching...



i am suprised your roomate has not shown you the ways of the pred

So I was sitting in class today and going over my bag and wondering... just how would I switch things up if I decided to switch over my entire bag to another company. Here's what I came up with, if anyone thinks any of my equivalents don't make sense go ahead and say so...

(oh, and I'd do Gateway if I had even the slightest clue how their stuff flies, we don't get any around here)

Ch Monster --&gt; Z Predator
St XCaliber --&gt; ESP Pulse
Ch Boss --&gt; Z Force
St Destroyer --&gt; Rogue <font color="red">or FLX Surge or Surge SS</font>

Ch Firebird --&gt; Z Flick <font color="red">Flicks are much faster, probably Z-Xtreme</font>
St Teebird --&gt; Z Talon <font color="red">if you can find them, or try a Z-Tracker</font>
St Valkyrie --&gt; <font color="red">XS</font>
St Roadrunner --&gt; ESP AvengerSS



How would your bag look?


I think that the Z Xtreme falls under the same category as the Z Talon, doesn't it? "If you can find them." Plus I don't think a Tracker and a Teebird are equivalent discs. A Tracker is almost identical to a TL. A lot less stable than the Talon/Teebird pair.


destroyers and rogues aren't equivalent in my experience.


Everyone I've talked to has told me that a rogue is a super-flippy distance driver. Compares well to my max wgt St Destroyer. Is a Rogue not really flippy?

The Rogue &amp; the Avenger SS are the exact same disc. They just have different names on them.

So I was sitting in class today and going over my bag and wondering... just how would I switch things up if I decided to switch over my entire bag to another company. Here's what I came up with, if anyone thinks any of my equivalents don't make sense go ahead and say so...

(oh, and I'd do Gateway if I had even the slightest clue how their stuff flies, we don't get any around here)

Ch Monster --&gt; Z Predator
St XCaliber --&gt; ESP Pulse
Ch Boss --&gt; Z Force
St Destroyer --&gt; Rogue <font color="red">or FLX Surge or Surge SS</font>

Ch Firebird --&gt; Z Flick <font color="red">Flicks are much faster, probably Z-Xtreme</font>
St Teebird --&gt; Z Talon <font color="red">if you can find them, or try a Z-Tracker</font>
St Valkyrie --&gt; <font color="red">XS</font>
St Roadrunner --&gt; ESP AvengerSS



How would your bag look?


I think that the Z Xtreme falls under the same category as the Z Talon, doesn't it? "If you can find them." Plus I don't think a Tracker and a Teebird are equivalent discs. A Tracker is almost identical to a TL. A lot less stable than the Talon/Teebird pair.


destroyers and rogues aren't equivalent in my experience.


Everyone I've talked to has told me that a rogue is a super-flippy distance driver. Compares well to my max wgt St Destroyer. Is a Rogue not really flippy?



As a X innova thrower I would say I use my flash as a replasment for the wraith and for my t-bird! I also have found the st Excaliber to be very similar to the ESP Force! I use the Flick where I used my Firebird (thumber and hyzer and forehand) I use a buzz and meteor in place of the 3 rocs I used to carry. I use a challenger in place of the Aviar X. The hardest disc for me to give up was the cheata go figure but I now throw the esp XL and for rollers use the ss Avenger! I also use the FLX Drone in place of the Gator. Hope this helps!

I tried an all Millennium bag a few months ago...kept a few, but mostly went back to my old set-up, which just happened to be all Innova:

Star Orc - Sirius Orion LF
Sirius Orion LS - already threw it
Champ Teebird - QJLS (translucent / flat)
Champ Firebird - EXP1
Champ Rancho Roc - Q Sentinel
Ching Rocs - Sirius Aurora MS
KC Aviar - Omega Driver / Omega AP

Didn't have much of a problem switching drivers. Midranges took some time to get used to, but I got there....I just couldn't get on board with the Omega though. I need my bead :D

The Q Sentinel got a permanent spot on the line-up, and the EXP1 stuck around for a while...until I lost all the good CE-blend ones I had :(

The Rogue &amp; the Avenger SS are the exact same disc. They just have different names on them.

I'm pretty sure its the Rogue and the Surge SS, and that's why the Surge SS is produced in FLX but not ESP. Like the Reef, Titanic and APX. As to these, there's no speculating. They even have the APX embossed on them on the bottom, carved into the mold.

Next season I'm making a sign that says, "Rare ESP APX" and I'm selling those puppies! :D

I'm going to be spending some time with the inventory this weekend. I'll check. I might even be wrong about the Reef or the Titanic, but not both. Someone showed it to me at the last tournament.

The Reef is the APX and the Titanic is the Magnet.

The Rogue &amp; the Avenger SS are the exact same disc. They just have different names on them.



check your facts son, bruce is right, rouge = surge ss

The Rogue &amp; the Avenger SS are the exact same disc. They just have different names on them.



check your facts son, bruce is right, rouge = surge ss



LOL

I sat there reading your post thinking "Yeah, that is what I wrote!"

Yeah, that is what I MEANT to write. :D

Everyone I've talked to has told me that a rogue is a super-flippy distance driver. Compares well to my max wgt St Destroyer. Is a Rogue not really flippy?



The Rogue is my go-to driver. I'm the world's foremost expert on Rogues, in the world of my imagination. Probably Mssrs. Kenner and Wagner know a little more than me. But maybe not. I throw them everywhere I play except Squirrel.

The Rogue line is much more consistant than the Star Destroyer line. In other words, every Rogue is going to be more like every other Rogue than every Star Destroyer is like every other Star Destroyer. Still, it is not a high consistancy disc. There is a bit of variability with Rogues.

The Star Destroyer is a longer disc if you get one that is the right stability for your technique and conditions. If I could afford to throw $9 discs, :D, I'd throw a Star Destroyer for those long bombs.

The Star Destroyers that I have thrown generally are less understable than the Rogues i've thrown. But only the most understable Rogues are Sidewinder or Roadrunner understable. Most are more like Beast stable.

I keep losing my flippy Rogue and keep replacing it. The white ones seem to be flippy, which also seems to be normal for Discraft in its other ESP discs. But the neon green one I had was flippy too. The orange ones I've had are less flippy. Orange is my go-to color for Rogues.

Bruce, seeing as how you are the rogue expert I want to ask you about sparkle Z rogues......have you found the '08 worlds sparkle Z rogues to be similar in stability to the '07 players cup variety???? need to get some more rogues, your thoughts could be helpful ...

Reef=APX
Titanic=Magnet

not being a thrower of either disc, i took out a champ teebird and esp tracker and they flew very VERY similar. in my experience...

IMO

newer esp/Z tracker = teebird-ish
players cup Z tracker =TL

The Rogue &amp; the Avenger SS are the exact same disc. They just have different names on them.



check your facts son, bruce is right, rogue = surge ss



LOL

I sat there reading your post thinking "Yeah, that is what I wrote!"

Yeah, that is what I MEANT to write. :D

The detailed inventory is up to 800 discs and when we got to Surge SS we stopped to compare. The Surge SS is not the exact same disc as the Rogue. One of them has a very subtle scoop in the underside of the rim where the other is featureless.

On the Titanic, Reef thing, the Titanic is the Magnet. The Reef is the APX. I mean is-is-is, not is-like or is-similar. It is molded into the rim. If you want an ESP Magnet, check out my blog on discgolfersr.us under Marital Harmony Sale.

so even after throwing rocs, then Q sent, and then back to rocs, you still kept the q sent? Why is that? for what type of shot do you like the Q sent?

not being a thrower of either disc, i took out a champ teebird and esp tracker and they flew very VERY similar. in my experience...



Your champ teebird is most likely a TL mold!!!

On the Rogue/Destroyer comparison--I would say the Rogue is similar to a Starfire-L. Its line is softer and "glidier" than a Destroyer. A Rogue will get about the same D on anhyzer, straight, and hyzer shots. It really seems to still work well when released slightly different than intended. A Destroyer is much more of a hit or miss disc.

not being a thrower of either disc, i took out a champ teebird and esp tracker and they flew very VERY similar. in my experience...



Your champ teebird is most likely a TL mold!!!



couldnt tell you, but it was a brand new red champion teebird right off the shelf.

The Z Trackers I have are very Teebirdish. They are pretty overstable new and then beat into great straight flyers after a couple months. The ESP trackers I have thrown are TLish and much less stable than the Z's that I have.

I throw a Champ TL in glow rounds since its the only champ glow disc I own.

What is the equivalent of a discraft flick because I have tried many overstable discs but none of them have the flat top like the flick.

Gotcha. I haven't thrown innova in quite some time. I just remember that the early champ teebirds were actually TL's.

For me, the Teebird equivalent (I used to practically sleep with my 10X KC Teebirds), is either the ESP Predator or even an ESP or Z-crush. Same type of controllable S shot when thrown flat, but can still be hyzered when released hyzer...

I really liked my 10X Teebirds also, but found that the pred wasn't quite as fast and a little more overstable to be a good match. The DGA Tsunami has fit the bill almost perfectly. It's a modified Pred with a tad more glide and not quite as overstable. One of the most dependable discs in my bag.

What is the equivalent of a discraft flick because I have tried many overstable discs but none of them have the flat top like the flick.



Flat top champion X-cal is pretty close to a flick but even more overstable or maybe a flat top spirit if you can find one

I have tried the xcal's but they dont fade fast enough I need something that can turn in a hurry and I wish I could find a flat top spirit but everyone I have seen has a dome.

I really liked my 10X Teebirds also, but found that the pred wasn't quite as fast and a little more overstable to be a good match. The DGA Tsunami has fit the bill almost perfectly. It's a modified Pred with a tad more glide and not quite as overstable. One of the most dependable discs in my bag.



I could see how a Z-pred would be more stable, but an ESP Pred is actually pretty close and also wears much like a 10X. Real stable the first week, then works in a little bit to fly straighter for a few months, until it flips one too many times and gets retired...

I have tried the xcal's but they dont fade fast enough I need something that can turn in a hurry and I wish I could find a flat top spirit but everyone I have seen has a dome.



try a flick. i bet itll be just what you want it to be.

I think he was trying to find a flick replacement

What is the equivalent of a discraft flick because I have tried many overstable discs but none of them have the flat top like the flick.



Two that come to mind are the Firebird and the Monster. This is more an "is like" than an "is is." Not sure if the flick has an exact match.

Z-Flick ~ 1st run CE-Firebird. Flat as a pancake. The flick replaced this disc for me. Firebird's nowadays don't seem as flat..

try a flick. i bet itll be just what you want it to be.


I agree... unless you are trying to get picked up for sponsorship, why not just throw the disc you want instead of trying to find a replacement for it from another company.

I like throwing Discraft but I tried a Boss yesterday and it felt great for the few throws that I tried it. Instead of looking for a discraft version of it, I will just put the Boss in my bag. Brand loyalty is silly unless you are trying to get picked up.

Where would a Z Reaper fall in line compared to the Innova discs? Would that work along the lines of my Firebird, or no?

When you say you have tried a XC have you thrown the champ? becuase they fade alot faster than the Star..alot and they stay that way for along time...Ch XC has to be the fastest, most overstable driver out...that stays overstable. The Ch Xc is crazy left turning for me and i can flip just about anything..
But sometimes I am just used to an innova style disc and its not that easy just to throw discraft, or something else. I will give all manuf a shot, but if im used to a certain brand there are similarities between innovas line that differ from discrafts and vis a versa ..im not neccesarily a brand snobb,

Z Reaper = a slower pred so yes a firebird...

The Reaper can be all over the place. A long time ago I had some flippy ones that flew just like the post-CE Valks. I haven't tried one in a while, but I don't think it would be comparable to a Firebird. Z Extra was the closest thing to a Firebird--kind of a Firebird/Banshee hybrid.

I just got 3 new reapers and they are amazing similar to old KC banshees...good thumbers but not much distance backhand or sidearm.

Also if you have really good arm speed Flicks are not that overstable (i use to throw them but i get about the same flight out of an Xcaliber and more distance). I use to use them for control drives cause they tend to beat in rather quickly.