I've not seen this discussed so excuse me if this has been deliberated before. In California where I play we circle birdies, but I know in other parts of the country it means a penalty. It would help I think to have some continuity. Has the PDGA ever discussed this issue? We put diamonds around aces, circle birdies and put a p with the hole score for bogies.

That's a derivative of ball golf tournament scoring. Birdies get circled, bogeys get boxed in. No special markings for pars. I like it, don't really know where the circle for OB/Penalty strokes comes from.

put a p with the hole score for bogies.



small correction.. :o
the "p" is for penalty...bogies are not specifically marked
;)

:D

At USDGC they put a "p" next to holes that there was a penalty on. 4p, 5p, 8p, you could have had a 2p on hole 17 if you aced your second shot.

In California where I play we circle birdies,


Do you circle 3s on par 4s and 4s on par 5s? Unless it's consistent for all pars, someone seeing a circle might assume it's a 2 without looking closely at it when adding scores.

ball golf circles 3s on p4 and 4 on p5. i think cali follows that rule also. do they have p4 and p5s in cali disc golf yet ???

do they have p4 and p5s in cali disc golf yet ???



Stafford and a few others including the Golden State temp layout. I think the circles also became ingrained there with the Norcal scoring where you put a dash '-' for shooting par on a hole and I think a circle 1 for a bird and just a 1 for a bogey.

put a p with the hole score for bogies.



small correction.. :o
the "p" is for penalty...bogies are not specifically marked
;)

:D




DOH! :o

i think that circling OB strokes and nothing else is helpful. you can see where your penalties are. i saw a card marked as you are describing, and it was just annoying to try to look across it and seeing a ton of circles and doubles squares and all that. id rather just count my twos and subtract my fours, and see which strokes were from penalties instead of just extra strokes. just an opinion.

ive never seriously played ball golf and dont see the need to take one routine from another sport and transfer it to disc golf.

word. true that.

I think the circles also became ingrained there with the Norcal scoring where you put a dash '-' for shooting par on a hole and I think a circle 1 for a bird and just a 1 for a bogey.



The "dash" you refer to was "Santa Cruz" scoring back in the day...not used any more.
They used - for par and -1, +1 etc for scoring...with 27 holes it made adding up scores a bit easier.
:D

For the most part, west coast circles anything considered a birdie, regardless if it was a par 3, 4, or 5. If it's an ace we either put a star or a diamond to signify it. small P's next to the score for penalties.

It's beneficial when doing a quick count of scores. You can count circles, then add bogie strokes and such, to get your difference to par. IE: 5 circles, 3 bogies, -2 on a par 58, round score is 56.

I first use that method in tournaments, which takes about 10 seconds, but to make sure I don't miscount I will count all strokes before signing the card.

Honestly if I played on a card that circled penalties I would have to forget everything I know and just count strokes. I don't think it matters how you write your score as long as your total comes out correctly. It's interesting that it changes as you go east. I wonder where the line is....Arizona? Do they circle penalties or birdies?

i think that circling OB strokes and nothing else is helpful. you can see where your penalties are.



WHY do you need to see where you penaltys were?? Your score already reflects it. How much room do you need to save for that Quad-circle 13 anyway??
Ive found that on par 3 courses, circled birdies are not missed as 3's when counting.
Regardless, a STANDARD should be set AND used by all... :)
:D

penalty strokes are usually the easiest to fix for the next round, i like seeing where the strokes came from, but more than that i think the circles squares and diamonds clutter things up and confuse the matter. when you make a statement that is conditional to only par 3 courses, the problem is evident, when par isnt constant across the board, neither is the understanding of what a circled number means and in the end it seems to not help. add the score, if you play par3 courses, then count your 2's and write clearly. easy as that.

For the most part, west coast circles anything considered a birdie, regardless if it was a par 3, 4, or 5. If it's an ace we either put a star or a diamond to signify it. small P's next to the score for penalties.

It's beneficial when doing a quick count of scores. You can count circles, then add bogie strokes and such, to get your difference to par. IE: 5 circles, 3 bogies, -2 on a par 58, round score is 56.



Kinda stinks to get that correct score plus 2 penalty when you are playing 21 holes, and come up with a 56. :D

ive never seriously played ball golf and dont see the need to take one routine from another sport and transfer it to disc golf.




What about the entire birdie, par, bogey setup? Wasn't that taken from ball golf and transferred to disc golf? What about playing holes when they are actually poles? What about strokes when they are actually throws? Why are they called tee boxes when you don't even use a tee? The list goes on and on. ;)


I'm not saying that we should keep score with circles and squares, but Why do people continue to try and distance disc from ball golf. I just don't understand this line of thinking when the entire sport is derived from another.

Jeez people...a circle_2 is an Ace with a penalty stroke...as simple as that. :cool:
Unless you're from Cali, that is. :p

I write down the numbers, plain and simple. If there is any sort of penalty stroke incurred a P is written in addition to the total score, in case for any reason it is questioned in the future for any reason. I use the P instead of circling it because writing 3-4 circles can get pretty annoying, whereas 3-4 P's is a lot clearer.


-Chris.
has taken a triple-OB score before... le cry

ive never seriously played ball golf and dont see the need to take one routine from another sport and transfer it to disc golf.




What about the entire birdie, par, bogey setup? Wasn't that taken from ball golf and transferred to disc golf? What about playing holes when they are actually poles? What about strokes when they are actually throws? Why are they called tee boxes when you don't even use a tee? The list goes on and on. ;)


I'm not saying that we should keep score with circles and squares, but Why do people continue to try and distance disc from ball golf. I just don't understand this line of thinking when the entire sport is derived from another.



this comment was made in response to the argument that it is done in ball golf, therefore should be in disc golf. i get it, they have similarities and one is a variation on another, but that doesnt mean we need to call marks made on the ground divots and a throw that is held to long a 'hook'. use what makes sense, leave the rest. i dont think that circles squares and diamonds help as much as they confuse. thats all. you dont have to call them strokes, or birdies or any of that if you dont want, i wont argue with you. write the numbers, count the score.

Yes the PDGA needs to have continuity in the marking of the score. :eek:

when all else fails, the rules could be considered........

804.03 Scoring

B. After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group. If there is any disagreement about the score a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they shall consult 803.01 D

C. The scorekeeper shall record the score for each player on each hole as the total number of throws, including penalty throws. The round total shall also be recorded as the total number of throws, including penalty throws. The use of anything else (including the lack of a score) represents an incorrect hole or total score and is subject to penalty as described in 804.03.G(2).

D. Warnings and penalty throws given to a player for rules infractions shall be noted on the scorecard.

Rules are pretty clear. The total number of strokes must be written down, including penalty strokes. Anything else is incorrect. So a dash, empty box, circle for a bird, filled in box, all are incorrect. However I did include D., to show that somehow, AFTER the total number of strokes has been written down you are to note where. It is common practice to use a circle. I don�t know that many people that mark infractions, such as warnings, but by rule you are supposed to. Double (snow man), triple and quad are not necessary, but it does give an indication of how many penalty strokes were given, but that is not required.

when all else fails, the rules could be considered........

... but it does give an indication of how many penalty strokes were given, but that is not required.



BUT where does it say to "circle" ANYTHING....
The arguement can go back and forth forever... /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
(sarcasim ON)
BUT we WIN...this is where the sport started...this is how it was done, this is how we do it... :p :D
(sarcasim OFF)

"attempting" to put multiple circles seems a bit cluttered.
IMO, with the creation of Par 4 & 5 holes on courses the circling of birdies does not work so well anymore.
A Diamond around an ACE is OK, makes it stand out on the card and easy for me as a TD to find later.
Placing a small "P" for penalties seems to make more sense than "circles"
BUT - There should be a uniform standard that EVERYONE follows
:D
...as long as we dont have to circle penalties :p
:cool:

BUT where does it say to "circle" ANYTHING....
The arguement can go back and forth forever... /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
(sarcasim ON)
BUT we WIN...this is where the sport started...this is how it was done, this is how we do it... :p :D
(sarcasim OFF)




According to C. putting anything else could be considered an infraction unless, according to D., it is to mark penalities or warnings. I say this because there is no reason to put anything down besides a 2, if a 2 is what you got.

I write down the numbers, plain and simple. If there is any sort of penalty stroke incurred a P is written in addition to the total score, in case for any reason it is questioned in the future for any reason. I use the P instead of circling it because writing 3-4 circles can get pretty annoying, whereas 3-4 P's is a lot clearer.


-Chris.
has taken a triple-OB score before... le cry



Yup. "What did you get?" "I gotta 2" "I gotta 3" "I gotta bleeping 4" etc. If you are playing for score this is the only thing needed, required, or frankly, wanted. What is your nunber? When playing a practice or casual round its illuminating to see how you got there ie ob birdie or bogey.

No need to muck up the score card with extraneous markings. I guess if there was a question on the OB call and you wanted to recall it and ask the TD you might put a circle on the hole in question. making circiles, squares, daisies or other markings really does not help with counting either. I often use the + or- par concept for quick totals. On most courses I count the variance from 3 X the # of holes. 54? 60? 66? Whatever. I translate it to a real nunmber. I must remember how many holes there were. If its a much harder course (and I am not that good of a player) I might count from 4.

So circling birdies should result in a two stroke penalty? I've never seen the rules interpreted that way ever. A diamond around a one, using this strict ruling, would negate the two stroke advantage of the act. hmmmm.....

The reason for starting this thread was to see if some kind of consensus could be reached. I'm sure that there are a lot of TDs out there who would not stroke players for circles around birdie scores. One obvious reason is the inability, after the card is turned in, to establish who actually put those circles there.

A looser interpretation of the rule would be that a number must be written and not just some symbol. Other notation would then not be deemed an incorrect score.

from a course design standpoint penalties need to be designated in some fashion on the scorecard to help designers tell if something may need tweaking.

not sure if anyone else has done/seen this... but my favorite way to score (when not playing a PDGA sanctioned round) is to just put a - in the score box for all 3s... when going back and adding up its extremely quick to add based on par 54 and go up/down based on the 2s, 4s and maybe 5s and skip over the 3s.

card might look like this...

- - - - 2 2 - 4 - 2 - - - 4 - - - - quick glance across ... 53
as opposed to this...
3 3 3 3 2 2 3 4 3 2 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 3

i know its not 'official' but very quick/easy for me and wanted to see if anyone else does this

on the 'circle gets the square' talk... circle OB... nothing for birds

Maybe a hole would get a badge of honor for most circles, think Seneca hole 13. Does that need tweaking ?

i assume 13 used to be 11 at seneca- i would say that hole does not need tweaking, it's great as is.

whether or not something can be improved with tweaking depends on what the designer's expectations were for the hole to begin with (assuming that the designer has put enough thought/experience into it to HAVE a reasonable expectation.)

imo badge of honor for most circles would be more likely to go to woodshed #4 or HH #12. ;)

I think Alacrity was saying that anything in place of number scores was incorrect. Per the rules, there must be a number there..regardless of what extra markings are there. So, only using circles for birds or squares for bogs was incorrect...not circles or squares around numbers.

To your original question/comment...I think a uniform marking would help. The rules only care about correct numbers and marking penalties. Why not keep it just that simple. A 'p' might be the best, cleanest way IMO. Also, the size of scroecards needs to be considered. Some scorecards have the boxes so small that theres hardly room to put a number in them...much less anything else. But, that is up to the TD to consider. Maybe a horizontal line just under the top of each box to put 'p's' in. So you have a place for numbers and a seperate place for penalties...keeping the boxes from getting clutered, but clearly marking the numbers and the penalties. Again, the boxes would need to be big enough to accomodate that.

If these scorecards become standard...I get the patent on it!! :D

Thanks Jerry, that is pretty much what I meant, but I was pushing it a little.

There is a standard for recording scores, it is the score, as a number as called for by the scoring individual, responded by the player and verified by the group. After that the rules state that penalities and warnings are to be noted. My understanding was that this was done so that if there was a tie, the number of warning/penalties could be used to determine which player had the best spot for the next round.

After that there is no reason to put anything else on the card. I will say that I have circled a players name if an ace was hit, but that was just to bring that players ace to the attention of the officials.

Of course, calling out your score as a "handful" is potentially not a 5 in just a few hilly parts of the U.S... :cool:

I really never knew why it was necessary to mark penalties...your explination does make some sense. And except for course desgin/evaluation considerations, theres no reason to keep track of which penalties occured on which holes...just that any penalties and/or warnings need to be noted. The players are fully aware of which holes they took penalties on. They often remember them far longer than they should...hehe. (I am included in "they") :D

ba doom....chee!!

From a practical standpoint, other than course design tracking which I can't say I've done on holes yet, it would seem like the only penalties which really need to be marked would be those not connected directly with a player's score on a hole such as warnings, or courtesy issues. Plus TDs should mark penalties for mis-added scorecards or playing holes out of order, etc.

I have tried to get Harold to encourage the USDGC players to really focus on tracking penalties on the scorecard maybe in round 2 just to see how many are taken on some of those holes. But that hasn't happened yet that I'm aware of.

So the consensus is we will continue the tradition of no uniform notating on the scorecard. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Hehe....looks that way :D

Circle for penalties.

The rules specify a uniform notation - write down the numbers thrown and indicate warnings/penalties for rules infractions. There's no need to indicate penalties such as OB or missed mandos since those aren't rules infractions.

Sure they are. They are additions to the score as a condition of the rules.

Nope. It's apparent that rules infractions relate to non-throwing related shots. Thus, the inclusion of warnings to be noted. Taking an OB is not a rules infraction in the way a foot fault is. It's actually following the rules. I'll leave you to ponder this as I go to play my 500th course in honor of Ben and Gregg currently playing their 1000th at the IDGC right now.

So the consensus is we will continue the tradition of no uniform notating on the scorecard. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif



Teemac, dots work better than p's for penalties. they take up much less space on the scorecard and are used to separate groups for the next round. KL

Mr. Ptero, What about those circles for birdies? At Worlds did you circle birdies? At Norcal tournaments did you circle birdies? Did you use dots for penalties? I think there should be uniform notation on score cards so no matter where you play, the notations will be the same. I find circling birdies makes totaling scores easier, especially when all the holes are par 3. Even when there are par 4 and par 5 holes, I think it still helps. Just my opinion.

OB not a rules infraction? Whats your definition of a rules infraction?

Courtesy violation strokes, practice throws, playing from wrong lie, etc

imo badge of honor for most circles would be more likely to go to woodshed #4 or HH #12. ;)



I'd give Woodshed #4 the nod on this one (it is called "circles" after all) - with Seneca #13 ahead of HH #12 just from a repeat performance standpoint. It's a bit easier to get multiple OB's on Seneca #13 than on HH#12 (not that it doesn't happen of course)

OB strokes are penalties not rules infractions

Courtesy violation strokes, practice throws, playing from wrong lie, etc

I agree. It is not a violation of the rules to throw out of bounds or miss your mando so long as you take your penalty and play the correct lie.

It makes sense to me that 'any' penalty stroke(s) should be somehow noted/notated - because stroke(s) were added to one's score that were not the result of a throw.

'Round here we circle any score that has incurred additional stroke(s)...for whatever reason. Seems simple enough.
.02

not that i want to argue that it should be the standard, but the reason that i think circling penalty strokes (ob, missed mando, etc...) is that it makes it easier to validate a score. if i take a 4 on a hole with an ob stroke. and someone else is trying to figure out where the heck the extra stroke came into play, and the card shows that its a circle 4 and not that i threw 4 times, it just makes it easier to keep track of. and i have found in tournaments when people do not notate out of bounds strokes, on multiple occasions someone saying 'wait, how did i get a 5 on that hole, and then they proceed to recount in the air.. 'one,..two,..three,..' with the air finger motions involved in their pretend replay of the hole. and usually the place the forget to count is either a really bad shot that went nowhere or an out of bounds throw that they didnt count the penalty. ok ive successfully rambled about this, what im trying to say is, i think in a small way, it can be a tool to help clarify score after the fact. and i dont find that circling ob strokes is detrimental at all to an understanding of the score.

and i dont find that circling ob strokes is detrimental at all to an understanding of the score.



Nor is indicating a 'p' or putting small dots. Until there is an official rule (waste of time imho), indicate penalties/infractions however you see fit. If someone has a hard time adding up their score, use a calculator. Most cell phones nowadays feature this simple function.

i wasnt saying that p's or dots were bad either, just that some indication is helpful, in contrast to circling birdies or drawing hearts around quad bogies.

There is a bonus for TDs when players circle their birdies. When checking totals on score cards, it does make it quicker. Out of 110 cards checked there was only one that circled a penalty; the rest had circled their birdies in our last tournament. Anything that speeds checking scores would be beneficial as long as everybody uses the same notations.