I'm really astounded at the desire to squeeze this disc and that disc into the spec. Must at least indicate some level of interest in the new format...
At this point, we've only focused on Approved discs other than the J*Star which we discovered....
You guys want to go backwards...
It's apparent you are confused also...
With Super Class, we want to get the J*Star for junior ultimate approved so it could be a smaller diameter putter to go with the Ultra-Star for those events.,,
Too small. We never considered going that small.,,
It's not about specific discs but the specs they allow if included.
Considering the struggles the PDGA has had this past year...
Look, talking about it isn't going to change opinions...




Astonishment aside, sounds like a little more work needs to be done with specs.

steve timm

They have to be good ideas first. Contribute the amount of money toward worlds this year that you would expect to raise by taxing every player $1 per event and show everyone how much difference it makes and maybe you'll persuade them to do it the following year.




Considering the PDGA charges 6% for a online registration service that should be included in the $75 you guy get from me every year.

I bet if we actually tried something like that a majority of people would be in favor of continuing the policy.

Instead though we get around 10% of our entry taken every event that we never see again but at least this would go back to benefit those that put in.

Astonishment aside, sounds like a little more work needs to be done with specs.


J*Star appears to be produced from the approved Sky Pro mold with a different name and slightly heavier production weight. It's also well within the SC diameter spec. It's currently approved under waiver pending formal approval. No spec issue here.

Chuck - you keep mentioning "Vintage Class." At first I thought you might be talking about wine (or whine) tasting, but then I realized you must be talking about some other competitive class of discs. I searched the PDGA website, including the technical standards documentation and the list of approved discs, and I couldn't find anything about Vintage Class. I also looked for Vintage Class in the rule book, competition manual, events guide, sanctioning agreement and divisions, ratings and points factor document. The only place I found the word "vintage" was in the Tour Standards document, which had a passing reference to "vintage" as a possible type of X-tier flavor: doubles, team events, nonbasket courses, single division events, winner-take-all, skins, match play, vintage, overall events and the new Super Class.

The PDGA apparently is doing very little in support of Vintage Class, but is actively pursuing and supporting Super Class. Why are you pushing those of us who would like to use discs 1-1.5 cm smaller than the proposed Super Class specs off towards a class of competition that clearly is no longer supported by the PDGA?

Oh, and please don't anyone misinterpret my comments as being anti-PDGA. I'm just "anti 23.7".

Vintage discs and their max weights are listed here: www.wfdf.org/index.php?page=rules/rules_approved_discs.htm (http://www.wfdf.org/index.php?page=rules/rules_approved_discs.htm)
with the detailed specs listed here: http://www.wfdf.org/index.php?page=rules/art5.htm#502.01 in section 502.01B (1) thru (3)

Stork doesn't know why the Vintage guidelines didn't make it in the PDGA specs when the current version was set in the early 90s. He's looking into getting that wording in there when the final wording for Super Class specs gets approved.

In Minnesota, we've run one or two unsanctioned golf events restricted to Vintage discs following these specs every year for as long as I can remember.

I'm not a WFDF member and I don't live in Minnesota. I'm a PDGA member in California. How am I supposed to know about this?

Sheesh! I'm holding off on making broad generalizations about the formulation and review of this proposed policy, but I don't know how much self-control I have left.

I'm not a WFDF member and I don't live in Minnesota. I'm a PDGA member in California. How am I supposed to know about this?


I'm afraid you are a WFDF "member" and didn't know it since we're all members by default (free). WFDF oversees all disc sports although the PDGA provides the specs and rules for disc golf which it "approves" as theirs when the PDGA updates them. For as long as you've been around Riz, I don't know how you could have dodged knowing about WFDF, especially since California is the birthplace of several formats and many of the people you know out there play them. I was exposed to WFDF within a year after getting in the sport and I'm primarily a golfer who never even threw those old vintage discs you are lobbying for. I guess the good news is now that you know, you can run vintage events if you wish to throw your 40 and 70 molds.

Is the Flashflight included in the Superclass approved disc list? It is just an Ultimate lid with light-up parts permanently attached. If it is not included, it should be.

http://store.flashflight.com/product_info.php?products_id=33

Actually, our Tech Standards group has been discussing how to produce guidelines if possible to approve all types of glow round equipment and discs with the lights built-in. At this point, the TD could request a waiver. However, our TS group is leaning toward only allowing the use of these specialized discs in sanctioned play when the majority of an intended round will be in the dusk/dark.

The general snag in the current disc guidelines is that no metal parts are allowed in approved discs. Other than glow discs and attached sticks, most glow equipment is going to have some metal involved. So the thinking is that since playing in the dark is already an environment that's more risky than daylight, that allowing the theoretically more risky discs with some metal should also be restricted to that environment. These are all just informal discussions at the moment. Glow rounds have already been sanctioned as X-tiers where at least the LEDs attached to approved discs has been allowed.

I think it would burt a little more to be hit by a Boss then by a lid that has a "metal" battery where the nipple normally is.

If you were hit with one it would be had to come in contact with the metal.

While that may be true, if you allow metal as a general spec, then it's hard to constrain where manufacturers may put it in future designs even if the current models have the metal in a safer position. That's why specific waivers are better than changing the official specs to control that concern.

While that may be true, if you allow metal as a general spec, then it's hard to constrain where manufacturers may put it in future designs even if the current models have the metal in a safer position. That's why specific waivers are better than changing the official specs to control that concern.




Then the reasoning should be based on the fact that a disc with metal may have advantages one without may not. Instead they seem to only be against it due to safety reasons which in this case isn't that big of a deal.

At this point, the discs cannot be approved. However, the TD may request their use for sanctioned glow rounds. If a lot more glow events are seeking sanctioning in the future then maybe the Competition Committee will grant a permanent waiver to a specific list of discs that meet all other PDGA guidelines except for the glow gizmos. But I don't see metal getting permanently included in the specs as a material of construction for discs.

This has probably been asked and so may be a stupid question, but why introduce super class events? What does it do for disc golf? I am at a total loss as to why we want to water down the sport with a second type of play type. If you are interested in pulling in more players, how will this do so? As an example, I am Joe Blow and go buy a Super Class disc, being a beginner I don't know the difference. My buddies go buy beveled edge discs and low and behold they are throwing further than I am. I will either A) throw away my Super Class disc and buy a beveled edge or B) say to myself that this game is a rip to make me buy another disc to play with my buddies and I am not playing anymore.

For years I have told families that disc golf is a great sport that you could go grab a regular frisbee and get the family and go play for fun. If you want to get serious you can go buy a driver, midrange and putter. If you want to compete you can start to buy different types of drivers, etc. I started playing with Super Class types of discs and was so pleased when competitive discs finally came out. I just don't get it. How can this help disc golf?

I think you need to read all of the reasons in the article. No need to rehash them here.

Okay, I must be stupid, because I still do not see that the article has demonstrated the need for a Super Class type event. I understand the need to make easier courses harder. Super Class events do not really do that, they just make the discs less manageable. I still do not see the reasoning.

There's nothing like trying it to have the light bulb go off. Why hasn't softball been replaced by hardball in general and aluminum bats in the major leagues? With softball, anyone can pick up and play any time at a picnic, just like anyone can throw Super Class discs even if they've never thrown before or don't throw more than a few times per year. And yet, softball has been played at the olympics.

Aluminum bats in the pros would turn it into much more of a home run derby in the same way bevel drivers have reduced many courses to par 3 (even 2s) and prevented new courses from being more than that due to limited property availability. Some people actually want to play a richer game more like golf with a nice mix of multiple par holes and Super Class provides the equipment more in sync with that aim for many of our courses.

I'm not lobbying you to personally like it and in fact I fully expect less than half of our membership to have an interest "because they are not the target market" for this initiative. The sport is already doing just fine adding players who develop your orientation. We need to think in new ways to potentially attract a different type of player because our sport needs to get 10 times bigger to get sufficient interest and funding at higher levels.

Let's say a snow cone maker has offered three flavors for a while and the only one you like is grape. He adds strawberry as a new flavor which you also don't like. If he gets more customers by adding strawberry, should you hold that against him? There are twice as many members of the UPA throwing Super Class discs as PDGA membership and almost half are women. It may take a while to get the message out to their players, but Super Class will be the perfect opportunity for ultimate players to practice their throwing skills on their own when team members aren't around and do it in a competitive environment.

I think you need to read all of the reasons in the article. No need to rehash them here.



Chuck you could have saved yourself about 150 replies with these 4 words at the beginning of your article.

<font color="red">IT'S NOT FOR TEXAS! </font>

:eek: :D

if you somehow made discgolf a more active sport and a team sport the numbers would grow to those of ultimate, i dont think the problem with disc golf is that ultimate players look at it and think, id like it more if i could use an ultrastar. ultimate players are three things, competitive, team oriented, and addicted to exhaustion. i understand the examples, but from an ultimate players perspective, the disc is not the main thing lacking from bridging over to golf.

if you somehow made discgolf a more active sport and a team sport the numbers would grow to those of ultimate, i dont think the problem with disc golf is that ultimate players look at it and think, id like it more if i could use an ultrastar. ultimate players are three things, competitive, team oriented, and addicted to exhaustion. i understand the examples, but from an ultimate players perspective, the disc is not the main thing lacking from bridging over to golf.



exactly

if you somehow made discgolf a more active sport and a team sport the numbers would grow to those of ultimate, i dont think the problem with disc golf is that ultimate players look at it and think, id like it more if i could use an ultrastar. ultimate players are three things, competitive, team oriented, and addicted to exhaustion. i understand the examples, but from an ultimate players perspective, the disc is not the main thing lacking from bridging over to golf.




maybe superClass speedDoubles?
teeTimes every 2min
best shot, worst shot, alternate- maybe a full round of each since we're runnin'...
time is worth something like 2/3, score 1/3 for your total score of whatever...

We've already discussed that adding optional speed golf competitions to Super Class events might be a good idea. However, I'm not satisfied there's a stable format for scoring those events yet. Definitely makes sense though.

if you somehow made discgolf a more active sport and a team sport the numbers would grow to those of ultimate, i dont think the problem with disc golf is that ultimate players look at it and think, id like it more if i could use an ultrastar. ultimate players are three things, competitive, team oriented, and addicted to exhaustion. i understand the examples, but from an ultimate players perspective, the disc is not the main thing lacking from bridging over to golf.



exactly



On that note, what happened to the Team Match play idea Pat Govang was pushing a few years ago?

I thought, and still think, this is a great idea and place we could better spend our resources developing.

I know the team event we have here in Iowa is always the funnest event year in and year out.

if you somehow made discgolf a more active sport and a team sport the numbers would grow to those of ultimate, i dont think the problem with disc golf is that ultimate players look at it and think, id like it more if i could use an ultrastar. ultimate players are three things, competitive, team oriented, and addicted to exhaustion. i understand the examples, but from an ultimate players perspective, the disc is not the main thing lacking from bridging over to golf.



exactly



On that note, what happened to the Team Match play idea Pat Govang was pushing a few years ago?

I thought, and still think, this is a great idea and place we could better spend our resources developing.

I know the team event we have here in Iowa is always the funnest event year in and year out.




TX teams always fills so they have to add another course so they can fit nearly 200 people. It is a blast and one of those types of events that everyone marks on their calendar.

if you somehow made discgolf a more active sport and a team sport the numbers would grow to those of ultimate, i dont think the problem with disc golf is that ultimate players look at it and think, id like it more if i could use an ultrastar. ultimate players are three things, competitive, team oriented, and addicted to exhaustion. i understand the examples, but from an ultimate players perspective, the disc is not the main thing lacking from bridging over to golf.



exactly



On that note, what happened to the Team Match play idea Pat Govang was pushing a few years ago?

I thought, and still think, this is a great idea and place we could better spend our resources developing.

I know the team event we have here in Iowa is always the funnest event year in and year out.




TX teams always fills so they have to add another course so they can fit nearly 200 people. It is a blast and one of those types of events that everyone marks on their calendar.



correction matt, tx teams had 333 players 29 established teams with 9 a piece and 12 merged with 6 a piece.

and i will also add, texas teams is the most fun tournament of the year!! the only thing that sux is theres no pay out just a players pack!!!! but all in all it is the most fun and definately worth the entry fee!!!! GO CROWLEY TEXAS TEAMS CHAMPIONS!!!!!!!!!!!

There's nothing like trying it to have the light bulb go off. Why hasn't softball been replaced by hardball in general and aluminum bats in the major leagues? With softball, anyone can pick up and play any time at a picnic, just like anyone can throw Super Class discs even if they've never thrown before or don't throw more than a few times per year. And yet, softball has been played at the olympics.





I kind of understand the analogy, but Disc Golf is not the same as baseball. After having said that, maybe I am looking at it wrong. Maybe Super Class should be pushed for elementary and middle schools, where they have the room to put in a small 9 hole pitch and putt that would be great for introducing youth to the sport. With the use of 165 or less gm discs, it could be played during PE with far less damage than a game of Dodgeball. So I will admit in that manner I can see some potential. So I will keep my misgivings to myself and admit I see some potential.........


Though if I wanted to still play Super Class, I could get out my old Midnight Flier, which will never happen.

I'm not a WFDF member and I don't live in Minnesota. I'm a PDGA member in California. How am I supposed to know about this?


I'm afraid you are a WFDF "member" and didn't know it since we're all members by default (free). WFDF oversees all disc sports although the PDGA provides the specs and rules for disc golf which it "approves" as theirs when the PDGA updates them. For as long as you've been around Riz, I don't know how you could have dodged knowing about WFDF, especially since California is the birthplace of several formats and many of the people you know out there play them. I was exposed to WFDF within a year after getting in the sport and I'm primarily a golfer who never even threw those old vintage discs you are lobbying for. I guess the good news is now that you know, you can run vintage events if you wish to throw your 40 and 70 molds.



Free membership doesn't mean that everyone is a member - it just means that you don't have to pay to join. I know what WFDF is, as I remember when the org was formed. BTW, I also know what Minnesota is. My point is, I don't look to WFDF to define the rules of disc golf, I look to the PDGA, so if I don't see a class of competition discussed or described in PDGA documentation or on its website I'm not going to expect that it's an activity of the PDGA.

PDGA - Stay Classy

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/ljpost3/stay_classy.jpg

Super Class, one division for each toe or finger, speed golf, and softball, what do all of these things have in common? All are an attempt to include or grow our participation base.

In real world terms, there is a formula based on human behavior that would define the optimal amount of diverse events necessary to attract the most players. Unfortunately, deriving this formula is beyond our ability. Now, some, take Matt, would argue that the best formula is one with very few divisions. His argument (if I remember correctly) is that this gives the sport credibility. Furthermore, he argues that all those divisions and alternate formats dilute the sport.

Matt is wrong in that the numbers and surveys show clearly that there has to be some diversity to keep a large number of players playing.

However, some argue that we should have as many diverse events as possible to attract those who can't possibly compete well in those divisions available and in standard disc golf as it exists. I think they are also wrong, no matter how well they argue the point. We don't have the evidence in place to show this will hurt the sport, after all, we've not built every type of event and added every possible division, as of yet, to see if it will kill us, but we are on our way. On the other hand, many other industries have already done this. It's called diluting your brand. Blackberry is getting a sharp lesson in this even as we speak, and they are not the first.

A product line must be diverse enough to attract a wide range of customers (see how car manufactures have entry level cars and mid-level cars etc.). However, see what happens to car manufactures when they have Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Buick, Chevy, GMC, and Cadillac...

While I appreciate the efforts of our volunteers to spread the sport, and acknowledge that they are working hard. I might suggest it is time for a review of what will be effective. What is a good level of diversification? That needs to be fleshed out, put in place, and left for say five to ten years (yes, I am arguing against the annual "lets try this" scheme we've been following over the last few years).

Now, I appreciate Chuck's ability to put in place the Super Class type event. I even appreciate the fact that there will be a body of players who will participate. But, long term, I'm betting this isn't the solution. Super Class events, like Speed Golf, my event of choice, are nominal aspects of this sport. They are fun for those who love them, but they should be left to the side show. Something fun for the rest of us to participate in, but not a driving force in this sport.

Players are going to naturally move to the most difficult, challenging aspects of a sport... distance, strength, and accuracy define this sport. We are not doing that with these types of events.

As an aside - softball and baseball are not like super class and regular disc golf. Anyone out there tried to learn to hit an 80 mile per hour pitch at the age of 50? Softball exists because there is a pool of players who want to play baseball and simply can't. Any group of people can play softball, but as an individual, you can't play baseball on your own, at a high level, without a group of motivated individuals of like mind. Fortunately, disc golf doesn't force this distinction. At any age, with some practice, any player can throw any disc with some success; one only has to watch Peter Shive, or look at video of Ted to get this. More so, if I want to become proficient, even at 50, I don't need a team to do so.

maybe we should create a new 'class' for speed golf events?... call it Superfast Class (im sure someone can think of something a lot more clever).

Would help grow the sport by drawing in cross country runners. ;)

Seriously though... can't anyone sanction just about anything as an X tier? If that's the case then maybe the PDGA (or whoever started this movement) could've started a grass roots effort to start holding X tier tourneys for lids only and if it catches on then maybe create a new class.

So you're saying that the Speedgolf card gets to play~through at all tourneys? :D

QFT!

(at the same time, superclass sounds fun.. I'm torn. )


i've seen a few guys playing my home course with oversized toy golf clubs. it looks fun. can this be a super class as well?

http://m2.sourcingmap.com/smap/images/item/n/08a/ux_a08011400ux0102_ux_n.jpg

Currently you can't have 2 PDGA tournies within a certain distance depending on tier levels, etc.... will Super Class events be grouped in with this or could you have a Super Class event and a 'regular' PDGA event closer together?

You can always have events closer if the first TD to get sanctioned allows it. One benefit of Super Class was to provide an option for overflow in markets where more people want to play than the capacity of some events and/or where certain divisions are restricted (such as none below Advanced like some A-tiers). However, officially the C-tier limits I believe apply if the other TD doesn't want it or the Tour Director doesn't override that limit.