I had recently played in a tournament. I registered without consulting any of my friends, and entered into something that was really over my head. I decided to go with it and just try to learn from the better players around me, and see what it is like to be a part of a competitive disc golf game. My group was walking from our first hole, which was not hole number one; to our next tee. One player from our group started quietly talking to the score keeper of our group. I knew that he did not know that I was close behind him, as he tried to tell the score keeper in an almost whisper, that he felt that I did not get the score that I had reported. The score keeper kept his response to himself, and changed the score that I reported. I know that that was against the rule. The rule states that:
"If there is any disagreement about the score that a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they shall consult 803.01D.
803.01D states: "When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of the doubt shall be given to the thrower. However, any player may seek the ruling of an official, and the official's ruling shall supersede the groups ruling. Any player desiring an appeal of the groups decision shall promptly and clearly express that desire to the group."
None of this was afforded to me. And subsequently, after that hole, my score was questioned again. I have only just joined the PDGA, and have really only been playing about two months. I have relied on my friends at our home course, to tell me if I had broken any rules. I felt that as a noob in a group of experienced players that I was obligated to listen well, and take them for their word.
Through all of this, I had not shown up to compete. Just to have fun and learn. I found out very quickly that in disc golf it is not everyones desire to "have fun." The worst part of it all was that the competitor that was breaking the rules informed our group that they are involved in organizing events for disc golf to be held, at a park that they are involved with.
It was a humbling experience, and embarrassing. I was so afraid to look like I was doing something wrong, that I accepted this competitor's judgment. But I knew that I was right on the next hole. And it was much to my disappointment that when the next hole was questioned there was no attempt to research the issue according to the rules. I was then told to try to keep a better eye on how many shots that I had made. No one even thought that the thrower should be given any benefit of the doubt. I left trying to convince myself that I did not care about this, and that I would just keep playing and let it go. I did not want to question the people that I looked up to as I try to get better at a sport I am learning to love.
I am disappointed, and do not wish to ever go to another event again. I would rather stay at home and play my home course where I know that it is mostly me and my friends and they don't care if I have a good score or not. Why should I support other players and their courses when this is the kind of treatment a new player to the sport gets, the first time they decide to go to an event? I am really not sure what my playing future will be, but I do know that there are places I will never go again and people that I will avoid like the plague.
What a victory for disc golf.

Some people will do that to you man. I know this one guy who knows the rules, breaks them, but only enforces them on others if it gives him an advantage. Although he never calls them on his buddies if they're playing in the same group and vice versa. You just got to deal with those people, or kick them in groin when no one is looking :)

<font color="blue"> [personal attacks and veiled physical threat removed] </font>

Tournament experience is just that - experience. It is unfortunate that your first experience was not a good one. But hopefully, you will use that experience for your own benefit - and not let it deter you from more and better experiences that are out there.
As you are just discovering disc golf, I encourage you to travel to and play as many of your area courses as possible (whether in organized events or not). If you went to Lewisberry - there are easily 20 or more courses within a couple hours drive - and are some of the best there are anywhere. Don't give up Bruce - DG rocks!! Knowing the rules is empowerment - keep reading that book - and don't be afraid to question anything you are unsure of when it comes tournament time.

you should send a formal complaint to the PDGA and see how they handle it.

WOW!

First of all - I have known Mike Solt for many years, have played hundreds of rounds of disc golf with him (casual &amp; sanctioned &amp; as a doubles partner) and not one time in all of those holes of disc golf have I or anyone in any of those groups needed to call out Mike for anything!
Mike is one of the most stand up guys I have ever met!
Second - for you to call him out on an internet message board like a little grade school coward is WEAK! You claim this "issue" happened after the first hole of the first round, yet you did not question it within the group at any point of the round nor did you say anything at the break to the TD nor did you say anything to the TD after the 2nd round. You waited till the next day to cry on an internet message board?
And then you throw in a personal attack to top it off?
Third - were you in the wrong? Was your score marked down incorrectly and the suggested score by mike was in fact correct? Are you upset because you were in fact called out? Why else would you not say anything?

Rules are rules and they should be followed as should good ettiqute while playing - I am not making an excuse for whatever may have happend as I was not in your group but I think you have gone about this in a terrible fashion.
I was at this event yesterday and heard nothing about this incident from anyone.

I think you directly calling somone out by first and last name in a public forum just so you can smear their name is total BS! Grow up and develop a back bone!

C'mon seeware...I think he's suffered enough! lol
Hang in there Bruce...not all DGers are scum - some will be the best friends you ever meet.
Sometimes even good experienced players lose count on a bad hole and need a reminder of what happened.
As far as what happened, if there was a question of what you declared as your score the group should have discussed it together &amp; recounted what they remembered your shots were. That is how it is usually done.
Not to "get in your head", just to make sure the count was accurate.

yep I played a tournament once and had to correct a guy not once not twice but 3 times. :confused:

First off, i don't know either of these guys.

Eric, from what the guys is saying, it really doesn't matter if his score was correct. If a score is questioned, it needs to be done directly to the player and the group if possible. not in private between a third player and the person with the card. if that is what happened, then i am not surprised there are hard feelings. If that happened to me, I would feel exactly the same way, but i probably would have tried to settle the issue right there because i have more experience with events.

Bruce, i would suggest you don't give up on tournament play. have i had a bad experience with another player at an event? yes. but very rarely. most golfers are stand up guys, and probably the guys in your group are also. they may have made a mistake handling the situation. I think if you play a couple more events you will find out there is alot of fun competing, especially as you get better. hang in their and don't let one bad experience ruin the fun of playing in events. Good luck!

Knowing Solty, I suspect there is more to this story than we know presently. I'm sure he would appreciate the chance to clarify things.

:confused:

Taking the one players comments as truth.

If it had happened to me, I would not have mentioned it until the scores were added up and then inquired how my score on the first hole had changed from what was reported and written down. Finding out that it had been changed without my knowledge, I would have worked to get the score keeper at the time disqualified hoping that he would roll over on the person that requested the change. The problem isn't getting the correct number of throws on the card, the problem is secretly changing another players score after it was given and recorded.

You do not alter another players score without their knowledge, for any reason, ever, period.

Another reason why I keep a second score card of every ones score.

I have spoken with Mike - he has no internet access while at work, but I have no doubt that he will post his side of the story this evening.

My post is directed at the situation if it ever happens, not at any specific individual or historic event.

I am disappointed, and do not wish to ever go to another event again. I would rather stay at home and play my home course where I know that it is mostly me and my friends and they don't care if I have a good score or not. Why should I support other players and their courses when this is the kind of treatment a new player to the sport gets, the first time they decide to go to an event? I am really not sure what my playing future will be, but I do know that there are places I will never go again and people that I will avoid like the plague.
What a victory for disc golf.



My first tournament experience was also rough. The TD grouped 1 Pro, 1 Advanced, and 1 lower-division player in each threesome for the first round. The Pro was great but the Advanced player in my group was a jerk, with no tolerance for the many etiquette lapses I no doubt exhibited, making the round rather unpleasant.

Fortunately I didn't give up on tournaments....and over the next 13 years have enjoyed many tournaments and almost everyone I've been grouped with. I hate to think of all I'd have missed if I let that one initial experience discourage me.

I heartily recommend your continuing tournament play, regardless of whatever happened in this incident.

Did Mike in fact tell/encourage the scorekeeper to change the score? Did this person actually hear Mike say "Hey i'm worried about "said person" beating me, let's add another stroke onto his last hole with out telling him about." or was he just making a statement, that he infact thought said person took a different score then was marked. If that's the case then the scorekeeper should be the person in question here. If the scorekeeper wanted to physically change the score he should confronted the invdividual and and worked it out, and not just changed it with out asking. And i have known mike for a few years now and played with him in rounds at almost every event i have attended i know he would not try and go behind someones back to have a score changed. I know i have questioned people's scores on a hole to another player in the group without making it pubic and with no intent on actually changing the score. and in other cases i have said something in private to someone who agreed and then on the next tee confronted the person and resolved the issue.

I managed to have my wife print out the redacted message before it was moderated. Ultimately I think this �situation� was totally blown out of proportion and at no point in my playing at the tournament did I wish malice or misfortune to anyone.

A little background about me. I�ve been happily married for 4.5 years and reside in NE PA. I�ve been playing for a lil over 3 years�.and consider myself an ambassador of the sport and promoter of the game of disc golf. In my professional and personal life, I pride myself in acting with integrity, honestly and fairness. I was in shock after reading the moderated post in its entirety.

�Rd1 @ Quakers Challenge�

As we teed off my hole 3�I started getting to know everyone as I�ve never played with any of the others before. I wished everyone the best, shook hands�and teed off. As we walked up the fairway of hole 3�a spectator learning more about disc golf joined us in walking ~ 4-5 holes. I remember someone left their disc on hole 3�so after we all teed off, he went back�and we walked ahead. After the hole�while relaying my score to the scorekeeper of the group�I said �I think Bruce had a 5�� and proceeded to talk to the spectator about what discs do�some go left..some go right..some straight�this was after she commented why I carry a backpack full of discs. So when we go to hole 5�.I proceeded to tee off.

Throughout the round, I encouraged everyone that we had a lot of golf left and not to get discouraged by the trees�as there was an abundance of them.

While playing our last hole�I ran into a college friend I hadn�t seen in 6 years(what are the chances...)�and talked briefly with before holing out and doing score. While adding up the scorecards, Mark and Jarred were tallying� and I reviewed the scoring. While we were doing this, Bruce was talking on the phone with a friend Charlie. We mentioned that he needed to initial his scorecard and he promptly ended his phone call and he initialed the card.

After the initialing, we headed to the cars and I had sold Jarred a disc that he�d been without since losing it the prior week in some water. Bruce was waiting for Jarred as he was his ride to the top of the course.

That was the round. I mentioned to the scorekeeper about the scoring issue at second hole of the round�and I hadn�t the slightest that he changed the score as he volunteered to keep score the whole round. In no way did I intentionally attempt to create a problem situation. Was I wrong for not mentioning it directly to the player, yes? However, I in no fashion whatsoever wanted to cause an issue. Frankly, I resent the chastising remarks that were made prior especially as everything could have been cleared up by speaking up.

My apologies that I didn�t speak to you directly, Bruce. The last thing I wanted to do was to cause you an uneasy time. While shocked at the hurtful substance of your post, I understand your frustration however this could have all been avoided with minimal confrontation.

I optimistically hope that your comments about disc golf and disc golfers were grossly exaggerated and that you will not let a simple misunderstanding hinder your disc golf future. There are many of fairways to be played. Again, I understand your frustration and look forward to seeing you on the golf course soon.

Mike Solt
PDGA # 32429
PM me for my Phone#

you should send a formal complaint to the PDGA and see how they handle it.


This is a great Idea and one I've had form years, especially when there were personal issues between certain players like Ron Russell, Brad Hammock, and Cam Todd, that seemed to carry over week to week.
Hearing players complaining about other players just doesn't get much done and when "PLAYERS" try to enforce rule violations on other players during rounds, it seems more like they have an ulterior motive as I saw this year at pro worlds.

I wonder how many formal written complaints the PDGA has ever had?

Should the complaints be made public?

I think the PDGA is going to have some real challenges ahead in this area. The idea of an official with each group is unrealistic for many years to come.
having an official on 1 or 2 groups is highly unfair as 16 other groups will be playing without one.
Players governing the rules on themselves is not working so well and will only get much worse.
This route will eventually get out of hand and possibly lead to "other ways" to settle issues.

The days of peace love and Frisbee are long gone at the highest level of competition and the answers to rules enforcement is not very clear.
One thing for sure, this is a growing problem that needs attention.

Rules were broken during every single round I watched at worlds this year The most common being, foot faults ( which are hard to call) a few 30 second violations ( which should only be an issue if it is causing the group to fall behind the pace).

While some players seem to think and inch or 2 here and there on a throw shouldnt matter, the point is one player is really making sure he doesn't foot foul and others can concentrate more on their shots if they don't have to worry so much about their feet.
On personal note, I could care less if a player head butts a telephone pole right after their shot or releases anger as long as its right after and doesnt continue, but foot faults give players advantage in more ways than one.
The rule itself is part of the problem as a single line direct through your disc is just too small.
I feel the rule should be the width of a disc ( 8-1/4" or so). this way a player can use a disc as a marker and it would be easy to see if he is left or right of the disc and also easier to stay behind. The 30 CM's allowed behind it seems fair for putting and laying up, but maybe 60 CM when a players is over 50 meters from the hole.



OK,,, I could go on and on, but Ive got to get to work, my boss is a real slave driver :)

Very good points , Dave .
I agree , FOOT FAULTING , IMPO , is the NUMBER 1 most abused rule in disc golf . IT is tough to call but should be followed closely as possible due to it does change scores more then any other factor ( other then the eraser )

i agree with dave also on this one. i was kinda surprised to learn from a top pro that some of them (top pros) would embrace relaxing foot fault rules a bit. mostly on the basis that a) too hard to call, and b) some reasonable and more consistant leeway does not offer a real advantage. so appently there is momentum building in this direction.

Not a great direction. Let's make a rule that is hard to call based on the thought that it is to precise to a rule that is hard to call because it is too gray.

btw I think something should be done about fairway foot faults. (Which is why I advocate some sort of stand and deliver, but let's not rehash that here). To Dave's suggestion of changing the leniency 50m out: how does one know if they are 50m out?

i would agree with changing the leniency but would allow it all the way in to 10 meters.

would this allow some people to take advantage on longer putts near obstacles?- yes.

would this occur enough to be a deterrent to "fixing" the rule?- i don't think so.

Taking the one players comments as truth.

If it had happened to me, I would not have mentioned it until the scores were added up and then inquired how my score on the first hole had changed from what was reported and written down. Finding out that it had been changed without my knowledge, I would have worked to get the score keeper at the time disqualified hoping that he would roll over on the person that requested the change. The problem isn't getting the correct number of throws on the card, the problem is secretly changing another players score after it was given and recorded.

You do not alter another players score without their knowledge, for any reason, ever, period.

correct me if im wrong someone at Worlds changed there score and got booted from event and from the PDGA From what we heard some people are just jerks like when our group and 3 others teed from wrong tee we had a person from the card behind us come up layghing and saying i hope you guys took your 2 stroke penalty when he didnt even know what the rules where he followed our group to scoring area to turn in cards and well i made very sure he heard what i said about interjecting into my group problems like this are handled within the group not a scorer the group figures it out if they need help then you can get outside help like a course td or official

Any player can make a rules call even for another group or at least ask a question regarding what they think they saw.